Greetings:
I recently took delivery on a Rojek MSP310 12" jointer/planer combo
machine. While the machine appears to have arrived in undamaged and
good condition, I'd like to make sure before a my inspection period
runs out. Unfortunately, the operating manual doesn't have any specs
on the table / fence flatness tolerances.
Question for the group: How flat is "good enough" for a better machine?
(I'm not expecting aerospace industry precision, but then again this
isn't exactly a cheap Far East import either.)
Here's what I've measured, using 1 year-old,
always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge
(0.001" tolerance over its length), a brand new set of feeler gauges, a
0.001' resolution dial indicator, and a Starrett combination square:
Infeed table (about 26" long x 13" wide) has dips of about 0.004" along
the front and back parts of the table (measured about 1" from the
edge), and a crown of slightly under 0.002" down the middle. Polishing
marks seem to indicate that the center part of the infeed table was
machined a bit more than the rest of the table.
Outfeed table (same size as infeed) also has dips (about 0.0025") along
the front and back parts of the table, but is essentially flat down the
middle.
Outfeed table was parallel to the Tersa cutterhead (less than 0.001"
difference front to back) out of the crate. Infeed table was
originally about 0.010" out of parallel with outfeed table, but after
adjustment is now within 0.001".
Fence (6" wide, 48" long, aluminum) is cupped a bit (about 0.0015"
near the cutterhead, about 0.004" at the ends).
What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
complaining?
Thanks in advance,
LKB in Houston
LKB wrote:
> Greetings:
>
> I recently took delivery on a Rojek MSP310 12" jointer/planer combo
> machine. While the machine appears to have arrived in undamaged and
> good condition, I'd like to make sure before a my inspection period
> runs out. Unfortunately, the operating manual doesn't have any specs
> on the table / fence flatness tolerances.
>
> Question for the group: How flat is "good enough" for a better machine?
> (I'm not expecting aerospace industry precision, but then again this
> isn't exactly a cheap Far East import either.)
>
> Here's what I've measured, using 1 year-old,
> always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge
> (0.001" tolerance over its length), a brand new set of feeler gauges, a
> 0.001' resolution dial indicator, and a Starrett combination square:
>
> Infeed table (about 26" long x 13" wide) has dips of about 0.004" along
> the front and back parts of the table (measured about 1" from the
> edge), and a crown of slightly under 0.002" down the middle. Polishing
> marks seem to indicate that the center part of the infeed table was
> machined a bit more than the rest of the table.
>
> Outfeed table (same size as infeed) also has dips (about 0.0025") along
> the front and back parts of the table, but is essentially flat down the
> middle.
>
> Outfeed table was parallel to the Tersa cutterhead (less than 0.001"
> difference front to back) out of the crate. Infeed table was
> originally about 0.010" out of parallel with outfeed table, but after
> adjustment is now within 0.001".
>
> Fence (6" wide, 48" long, aluminum) is cupped a bit (about 0.0015"
> near the cutterhead, about 0.004" at the ends).
>
> What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
> complaining?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> LKB in Houston
First off I would bitch about the huge misalignment of the tables.
That IMO is unacceptable, but probably the result of the rather large
distortions in the surfaces.
I would send it back and demand a refund. I've never heard of these
Rojek machines but what you describe is pure crap.
After all, you did use the $23.50 Veritas straightedge. Those are
machined flat to 0.003" over the length.
IMO, you'll never get true and straight edge with that machine on a
piece of wood you've dried for six months in your kiln and have had
stored in your perfectly shop that's inside your PERFECTLY climate
controlled compound.
Morris Dovey wrote:
> LKB (in [email protected]) said:
>
> | What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
> | complaining?
>
> Joint the edges of two reasonably straight-grained boards, hold 'em up
> to a bright light with the jointed edges together, and take a look.
>
> If you don't like what you see, ship it to me and I'll send you my 6"
> Griz jointer and 12" Griz planer (I've never taken measurements of
> either; but both pass the light test with flying colors.)
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
I got a kick out of this so-called advice. The tables are so badly
warped he'll never get a straight/flat/square edge on that POS machine.
We're talking 1.5 thousandths of an inch here, almost half a pubic
hair width. Not worth wasting the scrap wood for a test cut if you ask
me.
LKB wrote:
> Greetings:
>
> I recently took delivery on a Rojek MSP310 12" jointer/planer combo
> machine. While the machine appears to have arrived in undamaged and
> good condition, I'd like to make sure before a my inspection period
> runs out. Unfortunately, the operating manual doesn't have any specs
> on the table / fence flatness tolerances.
>
> Question for the group: How flat is "good enough" for a better machine?
> (I'm not expecting aerospace industry precision, but then again this
> isn't exactly a cheap Far East import either.)
>
> Here's what I've measured, using 1 year-old,
> always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge
> (0.001" tolerance over its length), a brand new set of feeler gauges, a
> 0.001' resolution dial indicator, and a Starrett combination square:
>
> Infeed table (about 26" long x 13" wide) has dips of about 0.004" along
> the front and back parts of the table (measured about 1" from the
> edge), and a crown of slightly under 0.002" down the middle. Polishing
> marks seem to indicate that the center part of the infeed table was
> machined a bit more than the rest of the table.
>
> Outfeed table (same size as infeed) also has dips (about 0.0025") along
> the front and back parts of the table, but is essentially flat down the
> middle.
>
> Outfeed table was parallel to the Tersa cutterhead (less than 0.001"
> difference front to back) out of the crate. Infeed table was
> originally about 0.010" out of parallel with outfeed table, but after
> adjustment is now within 0.001".
>
> Fence (6" wide, 48" long, aluminum) is cupped a bit (about 0.0015"
> near the cutterhead, about 0.004" at the ends).
>
> What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
> complaining?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> LKB in Houston
First off I would bitch about the huge misalignment of the tables.
That IMO is unacceptable, but probably the result of the rather large
distortions in the surfaces.
I would send it back and demand a refund. I've never heard of these
Rojek machines but what you describe is pure crap.
After all, you did use the $23.50 Veritas straightedge. Those are
machined flat to 0.003" over the length.
IMO, you'll never get true and straight edge with that machine on a
piece of wood you've dried for six months in your kiln and have had
stored in your perfectly shop that's inside your PERFECTLY climate
controlled compound.
Morris Dovey wrote:
> LKB (in [email protected]) said:
>
> | What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
> | complaining?
>
> Joint the edges of two reasonably straight-grained boards, hold 'em up
> to a bright light with the jointed edges together, and take a look.
>
> If you don't like what you see, ship it to me and I'll send you my 6"
> Griz jointer and 12" Griz planer (I've never taken measurements of
> either; but both pass the light test with flying colors.)
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USA
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
I got a kick out of this so-called advice. The tables are so badly
warped he'll never get a straight/flat/square edge on that POS machine.
We're talking 1.5 thousandths of an inch here, almost half a pubic
hair width. Not worth wasting the scrap wood for a test cut if you ask
me.
Larry wrote:
> I can't imagine any of the measurements you mentioned having any
> discernible effect on cutting wood. If you don't mind the question,
> what's the ballpark cost of a machine like that, anyway?
Thanks for the reply. You can find information on Rojek machines at:
http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/index.php
As you'll see, they're currently running a "free shipping" sale on the
310 J/P combination.
Another similar machine to consider is the Hammer A3-31. This is made
by the same folks who make Felder machines. It's more expensive than
the Rojek, but has a few more bells and whistles (like digital readout
on the planer). Not cheap but still less than comparable machines from
Minimax and Knapp.
>From what I've seen so far, the Rojek machine is a beast. Everything
is extremely heavy duty (the machine itself is about 800 lbs), and the
Tersa head makes knife changing ridiculously easy (under 1 minute, with
no subsequent adjustment necessary). Infeed table height control is a
parallelogram design, and thus fine-tuning the alignment of the infeed
table with the outfeed table requires just a socket wrench -- no shims
required. Fit and finish are excellent; runs quietly and with minimal
vibration. Gonna run some stock though it today and we'll see how it
passes the real world test.
LKB
A.M. Wood wrote:
> After all, you did use the $23.50 Veritas straightedge. Those are
> machined flat to 0.003" over the length.
Actually, I used the $42 steel one, not the cheaper aluminum one you
mention. As I noted in my message, it is machined flat to 0.001" over
its length. You can see the difference between the two here:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=50074
LKB
B A R R Y wrote:
> I was reading the .pdf for your machine and have a question. Is EACH
> jointer table 50" long, or is the total jointing surface (infeed +
> outfeed) 50"?
Total jointing surface is 50". If you need longer tables, they have
table extensions available as an option.
If you have any other questions about the machine, feel free to write.
LKB
LKB wrote:
> What does the collective wisdom think?
I think your "always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel
straightedge"
is no longer accurate to 0.001" tolerance over its length, unless
you've also kept it in a supported box and you were careful about
temperatures when you used it.
I wouldn't worry about 5 thou flatness in a machine table and I
certainly wouldn't expect to receive that, unless I'd paid the money
for someone to season their castings for a year before machining them.
If you care, set up a DTI on a long cantilever from one table to the
other and then try loading some timber on one end. Machining accuracy
means nothing when the deflection under load is far more than this.
I certainly wouldn't expect any better than 1/4" alignment or
parallelism between separate parts, until I'd actually set the machine
up. "Set up" isn't just ripping the box off it, there really is work to
do here. It begins with a stable foundation for the machine, then
setting the base to be flat and level, and only then starting to look
at the components and tables. This sort of machine is _heavy_, the
tables must not only be machined flat when supported, then have to
maintain this when sticking out under their own weight. Adjustments
like slideways become crucial here - owing to the lever effect of the
geometry, a tiny amount of movement against a gib strip gets magnified
out at the end of a table.
> Flat enough or should I be complaining?
Plenty flat enough. Enjoy it. Don't sweat the small stuff.
Thanks for the reply. You raise an interesting side issue:
> I think your "always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel
> straightedge"
> is no longer accurate to 0.001" tolerance over its length, unless
> you've also kept it in a supported box and you were careful about
> temperatures when you used it.
I've always stored it by hanging it on a peg through the hole (i.e., it
hangs straight down) in a tool cabinet in my climate-controlled shop.
It's stored in such a fashion that nothing can bump into it, etc., and
every time it comes out, it gets a quick wipe of Boshield before it
goes back on the peg. From what I've been told, that should be OK.
Still, I know it doesn't take much to screw up a precision
straightedge, and although when I received it it was packed pretty
carefully, there's no way to know whether it was dropped, etc., in
shipping.
Ergo, the question: is there an easy / inexpensive way (or place to go)
to check whether such a reference is still accurate?
LKB
"LKB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks for the reply. You raise an interesting side issue:
>
>> I think your "always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel
>> straightedge"
>> is no longer accurate to 0.001" tolerance over its length, unless
>> you've also kept it in a supported box and you were careful about
>> temperatures when you used it.
>
> I've always stored it by hanging it on a peg through the hole (i.e., it
> hangs straight down) in a tool cabinet in my climate-controlled shop.
> It's stored in such a fashion that nothing can bump into it, etc., and
> every time it comes out, it gets a quick wipe of Boshield before it
> goes back on the peg. From what I've been told, that should be OK.
>
> Still, I know it doesn't take much to screw up a precision
> straightedge, and although when I received it it was packed pretty
> carefully, there's no way to know whether it was dropped, etc., in
> shipping.
>
> Ergo, the question: is there an easy / inexpensive way (or place to go)
> to check whether such a reference is still accurate?
>
> LKB
Hanging the straightedge is fine. Dropping it may have a negative effect.
I have several straightedge's two from Lee Valley. I have a local machine
shop that tested the flatness when I purchased the 50" aluminum one from LV.
It was within 0.001" over it length. The machine shop has a 72" granite
flat table that they say is within 0.0005" over its length.
The point is, even 0.005" +2 is dead flat when working with wood.
Dave
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LKB (in [email protected]) said:
| What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
| complaining?
Joint the edges of two reasonably straight-grained boards, hold 'em up
to a bright light with the jointed edges together, and take a look.
If you don't like what you see, ship it to me and I'll send you my 6"
Griz jointer and 12" Griz planer (I've never taken measurements of
either; but both pass the light test with flying colors.)
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto
He must have thought he was talking to someone else in here about a jointer
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> >>
> >Do you have the feeling you have said things before?
> >
> It just means he's twice as mad.
>
> Pete
>
"LKB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
> What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
> complaining?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> LKB in Houston
With any machine, you should be happy with the price you paid for it.
From there, does it produce acceptable results? If not, complain. If so,
enjoy your purchase. Your technique may have more to do with accuracy than
the tolerances of the tool.
On 24 Sep 2006 06:56:19 -0700, "LKB" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Total jointing surface is 50". If you need longer tables, they have
>table extensions available as an option.
>
>If you have any other questions about the machine, feel free to write.
>
Thanks!
"A.M. Wood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> LKB wrote:
>> Greetings:
>>
>> I recently took delivery on a Rojek MSP310 12" jointer/planer combo
>> machine. While the machine appears to have arrived in undamaged and
>> good condition, I'd like to make sure before a my inspection period
>> runs out. Unfortunately, the operating manual doesn't have any specs
>> on the table / fence flatness tolerances.
>>
>> Question for the group: How flat is "good enough" for a better machine?
>> (I'm not expecting aerospace industry precision, but then again this
>> isn't exactly a cheap Far East import either.)
>>
>> Here's what I've measured, using 1 year-old,
>> always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge
>> (0.001" tolerance over its length), a brand new set of feeler gauges, a
>> 0.001' resolution dial indicator, and a Starrett combination square:
>>
>> Infeed table (about 26" long x 13" wide) has dips of about 0.004" along
>> the front and back parts of the table (measured about 1" from the
>> edge), and a crown of slightly under 0.002" down the middle. Polishing
>> marks seem to indicate that the center part of the infeed table was
>> machined a bit more than the rest of the table.
>>
>> Outfeed table (same size as infeed) also has dips (about 0.0025") along
>> the front and back parts of the table, but is essentially flat down the
>> middle.
>>
>> Outfeed table was parallel to the Tersa cutterhead (less than 0.001"
>> difference front to back) out of the crate. Infeed table was
>> originally about 0.010" out of parallel with outfeed table, but after
>> adjustment is now within 0.001".
>>
>> Fence (6" wide, 48" long, aluminum) is cupped a bit (about 0.0015"
>> near the cutterhead, about 0.004" at the ends).
>>
>> What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
>> complaining?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> LKB in Houston
>
> First off I would bitch about the huge misalignment of the tables.
> That IMO is unacceptable, but probably the result of the rather large
> distortions in the surfaces.
>
> I would send it back and demand a refund. I've never heard of these
> Rojek machines but what you describe is pure crap.
>
> After all, you did use the $23.50 Veritas straightedge. Those are
> machined flat to 0.003" over the length.
>
> IMO, you'll never get true and straight edge with that machine on a
> piece of wood you've dried for six months in your kiln and have had
> stored in your perfectly shop that's inside your PERFECTLY climate
> controlled compound.
>
Do you have the feeling you have said things before?
On 24 Sep 2006 05:29:13 -0700, "LKB" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Larry wrote:
>> I can't imagine any of the measurements you mentioned having any
>> discernible effect on cutting wood. If you don't mind the question,
>> what's the ballpark cost of a machine like that, anyway?
>
>Thanks for the reply. You can find information on Rojek machines at:
>
>http://www.rojekusa.com/PHP/index.php
>
>As you'll see, they're currently running a "free shipping" sale on the
>310 J/P combination.
Nice looking machine!
I was reading the .pdf for your machine and have a question. Is EACH
jointer table 50" long, or is the total jointing surface (infeed +
outfeed) 50"?
Thanks!
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I can't imagine any of the measurements you mentioned having any
> discernible effect on cutting wood. If you don't mind the question,
> what's the ballpark cost of a machine like that, anyway?
>
>
> --
> Every complicated problem has a simple solution that doesn't work.
>
> Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
> lwasserm(@)charm(.)net
It's here: http://www.axminster.co.uk/find.asp
"LKB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greetings:
>
> I recently took delivery on a Rojek MSP310 12" jointer/planer combo
> machine. While the machine appears to have arrived in undamaged and
> good condition, I'd like to make sure before a my inspection period
> runs out. Unfortunately, the operating manual doesn't have any specs
> on the table / fence flatness tolerances.
>
> Question for the group: How flat is "good enough" for a better machine?
> (I'm not expecting aerospace industry precision, but then again this
> isn't exactly a cheap Far East import either.)
>
> Here's what I've measured, using 1 year-old,
> always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge
> (0.001" tolerance over its length), a brand new set of feeler gauges, a
> 0.001' resolution dial indicator, and a Starrett combination square:
>
> Infeed table (about 26" long x 13" wide) has dips of about 0.004" along
> the front and back parts of the table (measured about 1" from the
> edge), and a crown of slightly under 0.002" down the middle. Polishing
> marks seem to indicate that the center part of the infeed table was
> machined a bit more than the rest of the table.
>
> Outfeed table (same size as infeed) also has dips (about 0.0025") along
> the front and back parts of the table, but is essentially flat down the
> middle.
>
> Outfeed table was parallel to the Tersa cutterhead (less than 0.001"
> difference front to back) out of the crate. Infeed table was
> originally about 0.010" out of parallel with outfeed table, but after
> adjustment is now within 0.001".
>
> Fence (6" wide, 48" long, aluminum) is cupped a bit (about 0.0015"
> near the cutterhead, about 0.004" at the ends).
>
> What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
> complaining?
>
Oh yeah; my jointer is accurate to 0.00000012", and that is pretty marginal.
Take it back immediately and demand a proper one.
(are you using it to make integrated circuits?)
There is nothing you will ever do on that machine that would come close to
testing that kind of accuracy. It's a good one.
"LKB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greetings:
>
> I recently took delivery on a Rojek MSP310 12" jointer/planer combo
> machine. While the machine appears to have arrived in undamaged and
> good condition, I'd like to make sure before a my inspection period
> runs out. Unfortunately, the operating manual doesn't have any specs
> on the table / fence flatness tolerances.
>
> Question for the group: How flat is "good enough" for a better machine?
> (I'm not expecting aerospace industry precision, but then again this
> isn't exactly a cheap Far East import either.)
>
> Here's what I've measured, using 1 year-old,
> always-handled-like-a-sacred-relic 24" Veritas steel straightedge
> (0.001" tolerance over its length), a brand new set of feeler gauges, a
> 0.001' resolution dial indicator, and a Starrett combination square:
>
> Infeed table (about 26" long x 13" wide) has dips of about 0.004" along
> the front and back parts of the table (measured about 1" from the
> edge), and a crown of slightly under 0.002" down the middle. Polishing
> marks seem to indicate that the center part of the infeed table was
> machined a bit more than the rest of the table.
>
> Outfeed table (same size as infeed) also has dips (about 0.0025") along
> the front and back parts of the table, but is essentially flat down the
> middle.
>
> Outfeed table was parallel to the Tersa cutterhead (less than 0.001"
> difference front to back) out of the crate. Infeed table was
> originally about 0.010" out of parallel with outfeed table, but after
> adjustment is now within 0.001".
>
> Fence (6" wide, 48" long, aluminum) is cupped a bit (about 0.0015"
> near the cutterhead, about 0.004" at the ends).
>
> What does the collective wisdom think? Flat enough or should I be
> complaining?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> LKB in Houston
>
I can't imagine any of the measurements you mentioned having any
discernible effect on cutting wood. If you don't mind the question,
what's the ballpark cost of a machine like that, anyway?
--
Every complicated problem has a simple solution that doesn't work.
Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
lwasserm(@)charm(.)net