Windsor Chair question

<[email protected]> wrote

: My question is in regard to the seat. From my not-so-extensive
: research, poplar and white pine seem to be the most common woods to
: make the seat.

Real Windsor chairs are made with English Elm which has the property of
being very difficult to split. This is very desirable because of the
reliance of the entire structure on the integrity of the seat, and the
proximity of the many holes.

Because of its un-splittability, I once made a 'Windsor' chair with a
plywood seat. It worked OK, and some people liked the pattern formed by the
shaping of the seat.

However the shaping was so tedious and dust-making, that I would not
reccomend it.

Jeff G

--
Jeff Gorman, West Yorkshire, UK
Email: username is amgron
ISP is clara.co.uk
www.amgron.clara.net

Gee, I've been meaning to but have never made a windsor chair, but it
seems to me that using SYP for the seat would be a bit of a bear, as
it's pretty hard, the grain can be an issue, and its a bit sappy, as
everytime I used it I had to soak my table saw blade to get rid of the
pitch residue. It might be a real bear to carve out. Personally, I'd
go with the white pine or basswood tradition as folks have been making
these chairs for a long time and those boys figured this out long ago -
why reinvent the wheel, especially for your first try. If you were
making a hunnert or so of these chairs maybe the wood cost/availability
would be relevant. My 2 cents.

Mutt

George wrote:
> Wrong answer.
>
> Reason for elm is that it's almost unsplittable. Since the legs are
tapered
> to wedge in as the butt hits, it's a real asset. Else, you almost
have to
> put a shoulder on the leg to prevent it splitting even a thicker
section.
>
> Worthwhile substitutes would be other curly type woods like yellow
birch, or
> stringy, long grained woods.

I've never had a seat splitting problem. A lot of period windsors I've
seen with pine seats have never had a seat splitting problem, and
they're more than a hundred years old. Maybe people weren't as fat back
then. :) It's strange that nothing I've read on the subject talks about
using elm for that reason. Sounds plausible, I guess. I've tried to
split elm -- those strings will kill ya.

You have good answers here. Some not so good.

Elm and Butternut make fine seats for chairs. Both look nice when
finished clear. However as it has been explained a softer wood is what
the chairs were commonly made from so that the hardwood wedges could be
keyed into the softer wood and so that the hardwood spindles can bite
into the seat too.

I think poplar and syp are both too hard for this.

There are plenty of different reasons for using a few different type
woods on an American Windsor. English Windsors are a different story.
For an excellent resource go to www.windsorchairresources.com

Wallace nutting was most likely mistaken, and he probably just guessed
as how the chairs were made. Green wood was green for turning, but for
joinery it stunk. People that have followed his ideas find they come up
with a less succesful chair.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 15:55:47 -0500, "George" <george@least> wrote:

>Yep, wasn't that the preferred over there? I'd rather elm myself, but
>thicker sections of softer woods seem to hold up well.

It depends on your design. If you compare the joinery details of US
and UK chairs, the UK chairs have thinner cross-grain sections that
would be a weakness if they weren't made of something like elm.

One of the few US "Windsorish" chairs I've seen that used elm as a
seat base was Nakashima's Conoid, yet because the back edge of the
base is relatively straight, it doesn't have much of a short-grain
problem anyway.

On Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:04:17 GMT, "mark" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:13:28 GMT, "mark" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>when you drive the hardwood wedge into the
>>>tops of the legs (assuming you use traditional
>>>through tenons)
>>
>> To be _really_ traditional, the legs are dry, the seat is till green
>> and the tenon is unwedged - it's just shrinkage that holds it.
>
>Bloody brits! :)
>
>AMERICAN Windsors -- according to Wallace Nutting -- the legs were green,
>the stretchers dry. Each stretcher had a shallow groove, and the green leg
>shrank around the bulb, securing it. If the windsor seat was green, it
>shrunk with the green leg, The legs, when the did not completely penetrate
>the seat, was sometimes secured in this manner: A hole was bored, increasing
>in size with the depth. A fox-tail wedge was merely started, and as the leg
>was driven home the wedge penetrated and spread the end to conform with the
>hole.
>
>

I believe I've seen photographs showing the ends of those green legs
in hot dry sand or near a heat lamp drying the ends just prior to
being inserted in the green seat. So I suppose one could
theoretically get the benefit of using green in both places.

"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:24:23 -0600, GrayFox <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >BELIEVE ME! Materials costs are almost insignificant when compared to
> >your labor when making a windsor chair!
>
> Unless you're trying to buy an elm seat base in elm-disease blighted
> Western Europe.
>

Yep, wasn't that the preferred over there? I'd rather elm myself, but
thicker sections of softer woods seem to hold up well.

Wrong answer.

Reason for elm is that it's almost unsplittable. Since the legs are tapered
to wedge in as the butt hits, it's a real asset. Else, you almost have to
put a shoulder on the leg to prevent it splitting even a thicker section.

Worthwhile substitutes would be other curly type woods like yellow birch, or
stringy, long grained woods.

"mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
> > I guess I'm missing something here, but since most windsor chairs I've
> > seen are painted, isn't the choice of wood for the seat rather moot?
>
> Yeah, from the sitter's POV, probably no difference...but from the maker's
> POV.... I wouldn't want to make a maple seat, for instance. Lots and lots
> of knucklebustin work. At least IMHO. I'll stick with white pine. Much
> easier on me and my blades.
>
>

"mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > Reason for elm is that it's almost unsplittable. Since the legs are
> tapered
> > to wedge in as the butt hits, it's a real asset. Else, you almost
> have to
> > put a shoulder on the leg to prevent it splitting even a thicker
> section.
>
> I've never had a seat splitting problem. A lot of period windsors I've
> seen with pine seats have never had a seat splitting problem, and
> they're more than a hundred years old. Maybe people weren't as fat back
> then. :) It's strange that nothing I've read on the subject talks about
> using elm for that reason. Sounds plausible, I guess. I've tried to
> split elm -- those strings will kill ya.

American period Windsors would probably have had eastern white pine, pretty
even stuff in density. American styles have knobs or shanks and straight
tenons into parallel-sided holes into the thicker bottom.
http://www.windsorchairresources.com/chrfeat.html

If you like the Welsh or English pattern, you find thinner seats of elm,
where a spoon bit can make a tapered hole for a shankless leg tenon to wedge
into from below, a real asset when you're not turning, but shaving the legs
all the way, like the country artisan would do working green wood.
http://www.handcraftwoodworks.com/

Oh yes, that wonderful interlocked grain also makes elm the preferred wood
for wagon hubs.

"mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > American period Windsors would probably have had eastern white pine,
> > pretty
> > even stuff in density. American styles have knobs or shanks and
straight
> > tenons into parallel-sided holes into the thicker bottom.
> > http://www.windsorchairresources.com/chrfeat.html
>
> But that site (http://www.windsorchairresources.com/cp9.html) and a lot
of
> the pics and descriptions in my Nutting 'American Windsors' book, and also
> 'The Windsor Style in America, vol. I and II') show hardwood legs all the
> way thru the pine or poplar seat, with a tapered socket and tapered leg.
No
> parallel-sided holes, and no knobs or shanks. I guess my quesiton is, I
see
> plenty of instances of both construction techniques. Was one more
popular
> than the other? Was one from traditionally trained british chairmakers who
> ended up in America, or was it just simply a result of whatever woods were
> on hand?
>

Nothing like trial and accidental success, I suppose. That's the way most
things got started. It's then you try to figure out what makes it work to
vary it. I guess I should reiterate that the thinner the seat, the more
necessary the intrinsic anti-split capability. I see thicker bottoms on the
American pattern stuff than the UK stuff, because they need it.

My personal guess would be that the relative abundance of woods determined
what might be used, then tradition and trial determined which, and how.

There are special chair-making tools (scorp, spoon bits, travister,
shaving horse, wood steamer, etc) and specific skills to go with
them. I made a settee using yellow pine for the seat, hard maple for
the legs, and cherry spindles for the back. A pine seat is fine, but
it will dent and scratch more easily (than a hardwood) with use.


On 19 Dec 2004 19:40:58 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>I am going to give a try at making a Windsor.
<snip>

"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:13:28 GMT, "mark" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>when you drive the hardwood wedge into the
>>tops of the legs (assuming you use traditional
>>through tenons)
>
> To be _really_ traditional, the legs are dry, the seat is till green
> and the tenon is unwedged - it's just shrinkage that holds it.

Bloody brits! :)

AMERICAN Windsors -- according to Wallace Nutting -- the legs were green,
the stretchers dry. Each stretcher had a shallow groove, and the green leg
shrank around the bulb, securing it. If the windsor seat was green, it
shrunk with the green leg, The legs, when the did not completely penetrate
the seat, was sometimes secured in this manner: A hole was bored, increasing
in size with the depth. A fox-tail wedge was merely started, and as the leg
was driven home the wedge penetrated and spread the end to conform with the
hole.

"Phisherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There are special chair-making tools (scorp, spoon bits, travister,
> shaving horse, wood steamer, etc) and specific skills to go with
> them. I made a settee using yellow pine for the seat, hard maple for
> the legs, and cherry spindles for the back. A pine seat is fine, but
> it will dent and scratch more easily (than a hardwood) with use.

Some other reasons to use a soft wood for the seat -- when you drive the
hardwood wedge into the tops of the legs (assuming you use traditional
through tenons) you make the wedge a little larger than the hole -- when you
drive it in, it will bite into the soft seat material and "lock" itself in
place. This, combined with the stretchers pushing the legs apart, will
prevent the leg from turning in the socket over time.

> American period Windsors would probably have had eastern white pine,
> pretty
> even stuff in density. American styles have knobs or shanks and straight
> tenons into parallel-sided holes into the thicker bottom.
> http://www.windsorchairresources.com/chrfeat.html

But that site (http://www.windsorchairresources.com/cp9.html) and a lot of
the pics and descriptions in my Nutting 'American Windsors' book, and also
'The Windsor Style in America, vol. I and II') show hardwood legs all the
way thru the pine or poplar seat, with a tapered socket and tapered leg. No
parallel-sided holes, and no knobs or shanks. I guess my quesiton is, I see
plenty of instances of both construction techniques. Was one more popular
than the other? Was one from traditionally trained british chairmakers who
ended up in America, or was it just simply a result of whatever woods were
on hand?

> If you like the Welsh or English pattern, you find thinner seats of elm,
> where a spoon bit can make a tapered hole for a shankless leg tenon to
> wedge
> into from below, a real asset when you're not turning, but shaving the
> legs
> all the way, like the country artisan would do working green wood.
> http://www.handcraftwoodworks.com/
>
> Oh yes, that wonderful interlocked grain also makes elm the preferred wood
> for wagon hubs.

>
> I guess I'm missing something here, but since most windsor chairs I've
> seen are painted, isn't the choice of wood for the seat rather moot?

Yeah, from the sitter's POV, probably no difference...but from the maker's
POV.... I wouldn't want to make a maple seat, for instance. Lots and lots
of knucklebustin work. At least IMHO. I'll stick with white pine. Much
easier on me and my blades.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am going to give a try at making a Windsor. I have access to many
> good bending hardwoods (red and white oak) and although I am always
> concerned with wasting wood, I am going to give hand riving a try and
> probably end up sacrificing a few BF of good wood.
>
> My question is in regard to the seat. From my not-so-extensive
> research, poplar and white pine seem to be the most common woods to
> make the seat. I have heard basswood and a few others make a good ass
> rest also. I have never heard anyone speak of Yellow Pine as a seat
> however. I live near a mill that cuts SYP (Loblolly is the prevelant
> species) and I would have unlimited access to tons of it. Yellow pine
> is significantly harder than white, but some people make seats for
> Windsors out of hardwoods, so how hard would it be to carve a seat from
> SYP? Maybe is there another reason people stay away from it?
> I look foreward to responses, and any warnings and tips anyone may have
> for my somewhat blind ambitions into the world of Windsors.

Hi,

I taught myself to make windsors, much like you are about to. It's worth
it. They are a blast. Gathering the needed antique handtools was a
challenge, but now many people make reproductions of the original antiques.
They're pricey, but they're out there. Thanks to Mike Dunbar, the windsor
chair is pretty popular these days. I fear there are more people making
them than buying them -- Mike probably makes more money from his classes
than he does actually selling chairs.

As for the seat, I use 2" rough cut pine from a local saw mill. I buy it
wet, and sticker it until it's dry and stable. Most any soft wood will work
great for a seat. Traditionally, the seats were pine, the spindles and
back were red oak, and the legs were maple or birch. I can't see any
reason the yellow pine wouldn't work. Basically, if it's soft enough to
scoop with your adze, scorp and travisher, you're all set. I've never done
anything with a hardwood seat. I've heard that butternut is a nice working
seat wood too. If you have any questions, I can try to answer them for you.
So far, I've done maybe a dozen chairs, so I'm not an expert or anything,
but I have built the loopback, continuous arm, sackback and my next one is
going to be a writing arm.

> I believe I've seen photographs showing the ends of those green legs
> in hot dry sand or near a heat lamp drying the ends just prior to
> being inserted in the green seat. So I suppose one could
> theoretically get the benefit of using green in both places.

Yes, I still do that. hot metal bucket of sand works pretty good. Dunno if
it does any good or not. In Mike Dunbar's book, he does it, but then in
later articles I've read by him, he says it's not necessary. I don't know.
I just like the looks of all the legs sticking out of the sand I guess! :)

In article <[email protected]>, "George" <george@least>
wrote:

> "Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:24:23 -0600, GrayFox <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >BELIEVE ME! Materials costs are almost insignificant when compared to
> > >your labor when making a windsor chair!
> >
> > Unless you're trying to buy an elm seat base in elm-disease blighted
> > Western Europe.
> >
>
> Yep, wasn't that the preferred over there? I'd rather elm myself, but
> thicker sections of softer woods seem to hold up well.

I guess I'm missing something here, but since most windsor chairs I've
seen are painted, isn't the choice of wood for the seat rather moot?

In article <[email protected]>,
"POP_Server=pop.clara.net" <[email protected]> wrote:

> <[email protected]> wrote
>
> : My question is in regard to the seat. From my not-so-extensive
> : research, poplar and white pine seem to be the most common woods to
> : make the seat.
>

I made 8 Windsors and I used basswood for the seats. It is easy to work
and it sits nicely, too.

For the spindles and the bows you can also use hickory or
pecan....anything with a straight and tight grain. Be sure to try to
rive the spindles when the wood is still green and also work them while
green....it's a lot easier.

I didn't have access to green maple for the undercarriage parts so I had
to buy 8/4 maple. Be very careful selecting the maple and try to get
some where the grain runs straight along the length as possible. (that's
where riving really helps you since the blanks will follow the grain
longitudinally.

Good Luck!

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> Gee, I've been meaning to but have never made a windsor chair, but it
> seems to me that using SYP for the seat would be a bit of a bear, as
> it's pretty hard, the grain can be an issue, and its a bit sappy, as
> everytime I used it I had to soak my table saw blade to get rid of the
> pitch residue. It might be a real bear to carve out. Personally, I'd
> go with the white pine or basswood tradition as folks have been making
> these chairs for a long time and those boys figured this out long ago -
> why reinvent the wheel, especially for your first try. If you were
> making a hunnert or so of these chairs maybe the wood cost/availability
> would be relevant. My 2 cents.

BELIEVE ME! Materials costs are almost insignificant when compared to
your labor when making a windsor chair!

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 00:13:28 GMT, "mark" <[email protected]> wrote:

>when you drive the hardwood wedge into the
>tops of the legs (assuming you use traditional
>through tenons)

To be _really_ traditional, the legs are dry, the seat is till green
and the tenon is unwedged - it's just shrinkage that holds it.

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 10:24:23 -0600, GrayFox <[email protected]>
wrote:

>BELIEVE ME! Materials costs are almost insignificant when compared to
>your labor when making a windsor chair!

Unless you're trying to buy an elm seat base in elm-disease blighted
Western Europe.
--
Smert' spamionam