On Jan 12, 7:02 am, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:40:21 -0600, "Swampbug"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >from HF. . .any comments on this one;
>
> >http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677
>
> Why yes... I can comment.
>
> Users who think they can dump some finish into a gun and their
> finishing problems are over will be disappointed with any spray rig,
> at any price.
>
GREAT POSTING, Thank you very much.
Wow, what a back and forth.
From this I got that the HFT Unit is well worth the $69.00 if one
regularly uses the three or four products/finishes delineated and
follows the directions in the supplied manual with the exception of
possibly switching to longer setup thinning agents to compensate for
the hotter air produced by the device.
After that first credible and responsive post, it seemed we went off
on the old "buy the best o not regret" arguments from folks who
appeared (for the most part) not to have any personal hands-on
experience with the HFT Unit.
I am reminded of the old adage suggesting one remain silent and be
thought a tool than to speak and remove all doubt. (;
Swampbug <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks. . .I had not seen that one(1) from HF. I had a Wagner airless and
> got tired of cleaning so much for so little for nuthing extra. I thought I
> would try an HVLP. I don't mind cleaning if the thing at least works.
You will need to clean out the gun after every use, but it's not too
bad. All the parts in the gun are made of some type of metal so it's
actually of decent quality.
The only problem I've had with the thing is the hose that connects
the gun to the turbine/blower. The hose and the connections are all
plastic. At least once a session, I have the hose come loose from
either the gun or the turbine. Fortunately it doesn't require any
tools to put things back together. It is an annoyance, but usually
about the time that happens is after I've been at it for 30 minutes or
more and I typically need a break anyway. :)
One other tip, if you should decide to get one of these units in
particular... The turbine is designed to be carried around with
you via a shoulder strap. I found that the default length of hose
going from the turbine to the gun was too long, and I'd frequently
step on or trip on the hose as I was moving around. So I cut the
hose in half and eliminated that situation.
--
If you want to reply via email, change the obvious words to numbers and
remove ".invalid".
On Jan 13, 12:16=A0pm, "toolman946 via CraftKB.com" <u40139@uwe> wrote:
> And if the cheap gun is easily made effective by tweaking the mix, why'd y=
ou
> spend all that cash on the expensive one? Why not buy another... or a coup=
le
> of the cheapos?
Because you buy the better equipment for two reasons: You have the
extra $600 to $1000 to put in the machine if you find you need to.
Why would you need a "better machine? Flexibility of finish
application, a better quality gun, and the ability to purchase other
aircaps for the same gun. The second would be reliability. I do not
expect to be able to use the HF gun all day and all night as needed,
several times a week if needed without any fear of failure. It is a
$69 unit. If it fails in the garage while you are spraying a project,
it would truly suck. But if your HVLP system failed while you were
spraying precat lacquer, that would be a tragedy.
My Fuji, with all the aircaps, the extra whip, extra filiters, and a
second gun dedicated to spraying dye cost me around $1400. I paid
that money for the sake of the Fuji reputation as well as their
outstanding product and tech support.
>You know why. "Cuz better equipment gives better results (and
> that includes a measure of forgiveness until one's skills develop).
Baloney. I have been finishing my own projects on my remodels and
repairs for years. I also refinish custom doors, conference tables,
etc. A crappy finish is a crappy finish. I have seen HVLP finishes
that look like they were put in with a sheetrock texture gun that were
put on with a very nice Graco system. I have seen brush finishes that
look sprayed (not layed down by me, though).
> It's one thing to be highly skilled and bend an inferior tool to the maste=
r's
> will. It's quite another to recommend an inferior tool just because you ca=
n
> make it work, in spite of having a pro unit, too.
You missed it. Barry never said it was an inferior tool. In fact, he
said he liked it enough he would probably buy another if his current
machine quit. Read carefully... he and others have said it is a good
machine for a lot of finishes, not all finishes. No machine is good
out of the box for all finishes without tweaking and adjustment of
materials and hardware. The same could be said for my Fuji HVLP or my
Graco airless; they won't spray everything without additional aircaps,
tips, material modifications, etc.
You should know too, that thinning is part of most finishes with
HVLP. What the additional stages (or turbine impellors) allow you to
do is to shoot less viscuous finishes without thinning. They DO NOT
lay down a better finish simply because they have more stages.
I don't know the difference, but one of those little HFs has a two
stage turbine, and the other has a single stage. I have seen some
nice finish work put down with those things by non professionals.
And there is nothing wrong with a quality beginner machine. If it
winds up being all you need and all you want then you are just that
much better off.
Robert
"Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:0bb9e966-1dea-4225-a2e1-2d7d07ec9e53@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Wow, what a back and forth.
>
> From this I got that the HFT Unit is well worth the $69.00 if one
> regularly uses the three or four products/finishes delineated and
> follows the directions in the supplied manual with the exception of
> possibly switching to longer setup thinning agents to compensate for
> the hotter air produced by the device.
>
> After that first credible and responsive post, it seemed we went off
> on the old "buy the best o not regret" arguments from folks who
> appeared (for the most part) not to have any personal hands-on
> experience with the HFT Unit.
>
> I am reminded of the old adage suggesting one remain silent and be
> thought a tool than to speak and remove all doubt. (;
>
>
>
Spoil-sport. Just for that, you buy the second round of beer.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
I bought the same sprayer you offered in the link. I picked it up 3
years ago and paid the same for it. It comes with 3 different tips
and nozzles. It's a great value and works better than anything else
I've tried. I haven't done a spray job yet that I'm disappointed
with. I've sprayed everything except shellac (including waterborne
finishes). I've had no problems at all getting what I consider to be
perfect results. The only issue has been dust and bugs but I made a
spray booth to take care of that. You can only change flow and
viscosity but that's enough for great results. My brother has an
accuspray setup at work that I've borrowed and I can't say it does any
better than the cheap HF model. More settings with the Accuspray
means more experience required and more variables to screw up. Same
thing goes with air brushes. My brother has a single action and a
double action brush. I do a lot better with the single action because
of fewer settings.
Getting viscosity correct is pretty easy. I don't even use the drip
cup. I'll use paint as an example. Fill the spray cup about 1/2 way
with paint and then add about 1/4 cup of thinning agent. I use
flowtrol/penetrol and also use mineral spirits when doing oil based
enamel. I use both for reasons I won't get into here. After adding
some type of thinner, stir and look at how the paint moves around.
You can gauge viscosity this way. It should look about like heavy
cream. I also pull out the stir stick and watch the paint stream
off. This is also useful (keep a count). After getting the viscosity
to where you want it, close the nozzle all the way and then open to a
conservative flow. Test on some scrap and look at the droplets.
Adjust the flow to get the desired coverage. If the drops are
splotchy and you can't resolve by slowing the flow then the paint
needs to be thinner. If the paint runs then you've got it too thin.
Same goes for any material really. There's a lot more to spraying
like distance to the work, temperature and so on but you'll figure
that out through use. All turbines put out heat but that can be
remedied (if needed) by working in shorter time periods. I've sprayed
20 minutes straight without issues. I've sprayed furniture, siding,
interior walls, moulding, metal and even canvas with this sprayer.
One other point...you don't need to clean the sprayer after every
use. It just depends on how much material vs air is left in the cup.
I leave material in it for a couple of weeks at a time. It's a good
idea to swirl the cup and squirt out a couple of sprays every other
day but that's not even necessary. The only time I had something
start to dry in the cup was after 4 weeks. The paint dried to the
inside of the cup but was really easy to get off.
So from somebody who actually has this sprayer, yes I'd recommend it.
Especially for the price. You can find a lot more opinions on this
sprayer with a decent google search.
Swampbug <[email protected]> wrote:
> from HF. . .any comments on this one;
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677
I have a different HVLP unit[1] from Harbor Freight. I'm not a
finishing expert and certainly not an expert at spraying finishes.
However I can say I've been pleased with the results I've had using my
unit. I've used it to spray several types of finishes and some laytex
paint. Regarding finishes, I've used my HVLP unit to spray plain
shellac and shellac I've tinted with dyes with very good results.
I've also use the unit to spray Miniwax's Polyshades product. I've
never been able to get the results I wanted with either shellac or
Polyshades by brushing or wiping, but when I spray them with the cheap
Harbor Freight HVLP unit, I get results I like.
[1]: http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91772
--
If you want to reply via email, change the obvious words to numbers and
remove ".invalid".
"Tanus" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Agreed. I t would be. I know where my skill level lies, and I attempt to
> improve that with a variety of means. Reading, practicing in the shop,
> gobbling up gems in here, and ensuring that the equipment isn't ambushing
> me are some of the techniques I use.
>
> My post concentrated on equipment and its quality because that was the
> topic at the time.
>
> If only it were true. If premium tools alone could turn us all into Frids.
> Naw, that wouldn't be any fun either.
>
Ok - so we're all agreed then. I'm so glad I was able to bring peace and
accord to this little group. Tanus - you buy this round of beer.
Swingman - you grab a few girls, there's a thing gonna be happening here...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Tanus" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm not setting myself up for anything of the kind. You can't see anywhere
> in my post where I said that "you can count on the equipment to deliver a
> decent finish. "
>
> What I said was, I was tired of buying equipment by price alone. With some
> exceptions, you get what you pay for. And what I implied, and I feel that
> was pretty clear, was that I was willing to pay more to get higher quality
> stuff.
>
> I've never bought anything in my life without taking it home and
> experimenting with it. But thanks for the advice.
>
Perhaps I read it wrong, but it was the following comment that inspired my
reply.
"In this argument, I'd lean towards a more forgiving piece of machinery that
will give me a decent finish without having to do endless tweaks."
It was indeed clear to me that you're willing to pay for quality. The part
of the above statement that caught my eye was that it appeared to imply that
the quality equipment will give dramatically better results with less
effort. That wouldn't be inherently true.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Swampbug wrote:
>from HF. . .any comments on this one;
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677
>
Last month's edition of "Fine Woodworking" magazine had an article about HVLP
sprayers, although the topic is not new and has been written about
extensively. They used to be quite expensive but have considerably come down
in price in the last 5 years.From everything I've read, a decent HVLP system
can be had for about $200. Inexpensive units, like the HF one you indicated,
may be more frustrating then they're worth. Especially if you intend to spray
waterborne finishes. Units like this one tend to have an underpowered turbine
and low quality spray gun... usually with a tip that's not suitable for
waterborne finishes.
I'm usually a big fan of inexpensive tools that can be made more useful by
"tweaking" them past their short comings. But I've had a fair bit of
experience with sprayers (good and bad) and they're not the type of tool that
can usually be improved upon. There's many ways to build a project "on the
cheap" (hand saw instead of a power saw... chisels and hand planes instead of
a router) and a finish can be applied by hand or brush that, with a bit more
time and elbow grease, will be satisfactory. Spraying offers many advantages,
including speed, but cheap spray equipment can be disappointing... and time
consuming.
In my humble opinion, you're better off to save up a few more shekels and
invest in a unit that will perform better "right out of the box".
Cheers
--
Message posted via CraftKB.com
http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/woodworking/200801/1
Great post, Barry. We agree on point, but I have a couple of comments 'cuz my
conclusion from your post is that you'd recommend the HF sprayer to this
newbie.
>_Once the product is in the proper viscosity range_, I can lay down
>just as good a finish with the $69 unit, as I can with the expensive
>system.
>
With your knowledge and skill level, you could probably lay down a
professional finish with a curly stray taped to a turkey baster!
>Users who think they can dump some finish into a gun and their
>finishing problems are over will be disappointed with any spray rig,
>at any price.
>
Right on again. That's one reason why I suggested against the HF turbine
system mentioned by the OP and recommended a decent unit at about $200.00.
Without extensive experience and knowledge (especially tweaking viscosity and
additives to enhance flowability) there's no way a newbie will create an
acceptable finish with this cheapo. And as you confirmed, waterborne finishes
won't work. Frustration high... satisfaction low! The thing will sit in the
corner. Money wasted.
I'm all for economy but the more important aspect is value and this unit
doesn't have it.
Although I regularly use a $4,000.00 arc welder... I can still lay down a
good, solid weld with jumper cables and a battery. But I wouldn't recommend
that to a beginner.
Just one man's opinion, though.
I enjoyed you comments.
Cheers
--
Message posted via http://www.craftkb.com
>Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:
>All of the knowledge I posted to properly use the cheap HVLP came from
>the instruction manual included in the box, rec.woodworking, and Jeff
>Jewitt's books.
>
>As a beginner, I felt that the lack of adjustments and needle choices
>made it easier to learn. Woodcraft and Rockler actually sell the
>identical tool for $100.
>
If you'd said that the instructions alone had taught you the alchemy skills
necessary to create a decent finish with a low quality unit, such as this one
being discussed, then I'd recommend it too. But that's not the case. I doubt
that you studied the chemistry (and physics) of applying finishes before
choosing to buy a cheap gun and trying to make it work with your accumulated
knowledge. All the information and advice out there, and in Jeweitt's books,
recommend buying decent equipment.
And if the cheap gun is easily made effective by tweaking the mix, why'd you
spend all that cash on the expensive one? Why not buy another... or a couple
of the cheapos? You know why. "Cuz better equipment gives better results (and
that includes a measure of forgiveness until one's skills develop).
It's one thing to be highly skilled and bend an inferior tool to the master's
will. It's quite another to recommend an inferior tool just because you can
make it work, in spite of having a pro unit, too.
That's my last word on this.
Cheers
--
Message posted via http://www.craftkb.com
>Hoosierpopi wrote:
>
>I am reminded of the old adage suggesting one remain silent and be
>thought a tool than to speak and remove all doubt. (;
>
I'm glad that everyone else here is mature enough to respect another's
opinion and not suggest that a dissenting voice be silenced.
What an a**hole. Grow up!
--
Message posted via http://www.craftkb.com
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 18:16:21 GMT, "toolman946 via CraftKB.com"
<u40139@uwe> wrote:
>
>And if the cheap gun is easily made effective by tweaking the mix, why'd you
>spend all that cash on the expensive one?
Because the cheapie can't spray some of the products I apply with the
Fuji. The cheapie dosen't have a long enough hose to spray millwork,
and it can't be extended. There's no pressure pot for the cheapie.
FWIW, the $200 HVLP can't apply half of the products the that the Fuji
can.
>That's my last word on this.
Thanks!
Great post.
B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:40:21 -0600, "Swampbug"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> from HF. . .any comments on this one;
>>
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677
>
>
> Why yes... I can comment.
>
> First, a quick background. I own that exact unit and an $800 Fuji 4
> stage setup and have used both extensively. The HVLP in your link is
> one of the few items from HF I've been happy buying, ever!
>
> Pros on the HF unit:
> - Cheap
> - Very easy to use (non-adjustable)
> - Lightweight
> - Easy to clean
> - Good to spectacular results are possible
> - Viscosity cup included
> - HVLP systems have zero problems due to water and oil in the air line
> - No large and expensive compressor needed
> - Very portable and easy to store
> - Plastic gun is durable and impervious to finishes
>
> Cons:
> - Short, non-extendable hose
> - few adjustments (see "easy to use!")
> - Loud, especially as the turbine is close by with the short hose
> - Hose sometimes pops off, as it's a friction fit
> - I haven't seen a source for spare parts
> - Only one tip setup available (see "easy to use")
> - Many gun parts not replaceable (see "easy to use" <G>)
> - No filter on pickup tube, so filtering the finish before pouring it
> into the cub is extra important.
>
> The HF unit actually works great for anything where the user can
> control the viscosity of the finish. The user MUST get the finish
> into a narrow range, as the gun isn't really adjustable, and no other
> tip/needle setups are available. This ranges from really easy to do
> with nitrocellulose lacquer and dye stain, to virtually impossible
> with many waterborne products and latex paints. Most phenolic and
> polyurethane varnishes, as well as shellac, will fall somewhere in
> between on the "thinability" scale.
>
> For the user who prefers easily thinned products, and is willing to
> experiment a bit with the included viscosity cup, scrap stock, and a
> notebook, this is not a problem. Due to the warm air in an HVLP
> system, different thinners may be required than would be used
> brushing, to retard drying times.
>
> The extra money spent on the high-end unit allows one to spray all
> kinds of finishes (with extra $75 gun setups), add different feeds
> (high-capacity pressure pots, gravity, mini-cups), get replacement
> parts, greatly extend the hose, etc...
>
> I still use my HF unit for spraying lighter weight materials like
> dyes, stains, Olympic Maximum oil, and deck stains.
>
> The bottom line:
>
> _Once the product is in the proper viscosity range_, I can lay down
> just as good a finish with the $69 unit, as I can with the expensive
> system. Both have valuable places in my shop.
>
> If you never go outside the capabilities of the HF kit, it may be the
> only HVLP unit you will ever need. If your favorite finish can't
> thinned to the proper range, it will be useless.
>
> Noting that an extra needle/tip setup for the "pro" unit costs more
> than the entire HF kit, I'll probably buy another one if this one
> bites it. <G>
>
> Users who think they can dump some finish into a gun and their
> finishing problems are over will be disappointed with any spray rig,
> at any price.
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> ** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
> ---------------------------------------------
WOW! Thanks. . .I will see if I can locate the mag article you alluded to.
--
Swampbug
-----------------------
"toolman946 via CraftKB.com" <u40139@uwe> wrote in message
news:7e14cf66814bb@uwe...
> Swampbug wrote:
>>from HF. . .any comments on this one;
>>
>>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677
>>
> Last month's edition of "Fine Woodworking" magazine had an article about
> HVLP
> sprayers, although the topic is not new and has been written about
> extensively. They used to be quite expensive but have considerably come
> down
> in price in the last 5 years.From everything I've read, a decent HVLP
> system
> can be had for about $200. Inexpensive units, like the HF one you
> indicated,
> may be more frustrating then they're worth. Especially if you intend to
> spray
> waterborne finishes. Units like this one tend to have an underpowered
> turbine
> and low quality spray gun... usually with a tip that's not suitable for
> waterborne finishes.
>
> I'm usually a big fan of inexpensive tools that can be made more useful by
> "tweaking" them past their short comings. But I've had a fair bit of
> experience with sprayers (good and bad) and they're not the type of tool
> that
> can usually be improved upon. There's many ways to build a project "on the
> cheap" (hand saw instead of a power saw... chisels and hand planes instead
> of
> a router) and a finish can be applied by hand or brush that, with a bit
> more
> time and elbow grease, will be satisfactory. Spraying offers many
> advantages,
> including speed, but cheap spray equipment can be disappointing... and
> time
> consuming.
>
> In my humble opinion, you're better off to save up a few more shekels and
> invest in a unit that will perform better "right out of the box".
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> Message posted via CraftKB.com
> http://www.craftkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/woodworking/200801/1
>
Thanks. . .I had not seen that one(1) from HF. I had a Wagner airless and
got tired of cleaning so much for so little for nuthing extra. I thought I
would try an HVLP. I don't mind cleaning if the thing at least works.
--
Swampbug
-----------------------
"Michael Faurot" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swampbug <[email protected]> wrote:
>> from HF. . .any comments on this one;
>
>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677
>
> I have a different HVLP unit[1] from Harbor Freight. I'm not a
> finishing expert and certainly not an expert at spraying finishes.
> However I can say I've been pleased with the results I've had using my
> unit. I've used it to spray several types of finishes and some laytex
> paint. Regarding finishes, I've used my HVLP unit to spray plain
> shellac and shellac I've tinted with dyes with very good results.
> I've also use the unit to spray Miniwax's Polyshades product. I've
> never been able to get the results I wanted with either shellac or
> Polyshades by brushing or wiping, but when I spray them with the cheap
> Harbor Freight HVLP unit, I get results I like.
>
> [1]:
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=91772
>
> --
>
> If you want to reply via email, change the obvious words to numbers and
> remove ".invalid".
"Tanus" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Barry, I think he's got a point. From what I've read of your experience,
> you're right up there.
>
> I don't have HVLP, and I will be in the market for one in the future. I've
> bought cheap products before and paid twice for them. In this argument,
> I'd lean towards a more forgiving piece of machinery that will give me a
> decent finish without having to do endless tweaks.
>
Nothwithstanding pure junk, you are setting yourself up for disappointment
if you believe you can count on the equipment to deliver a decent finish.
Granted, experienced painters can turn out good work with lesser equipment,
but the inverse is not true. Buying great equipment is not going to make
you a good sprayer. Go back and re-read Barry's comments. What he has
posted in this thread is dead on. If you don't take the time to learn about
viscosity and some of the other basics - and invest in some trial and error,
the best equipment in the world is not going to make you a good painter.
Those basics apply to the good gear as much as they do to the lesser gear.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:35:47 GMT, "Twayne"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Great post.
>
>B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:40:21 -0600, "Swampbug"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> from HF. . .any comments on this one;
>>>
>>> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677
>>
>>
>> Why yes... I can comment.
>>
>> First, a quick background. I own that exact unit and an $800 Fuji 4
>> stage setup and have used both extensively. The HVLP in your link is
>> one of the few items from HF I've been happy buying, ever!
>>
>> Pros on the HF unit:
>> - Cheap
>> - Very easy to use (non-adjustable)
>> - Lightweight
>> - Easy to clean
>> - Good to spectacular results are possible
>> - Viscosity cup included
>> - HVLP systems have zero problems due to water and oil in the air line
>> - No large and expensive compressor needed
>> - Very portable and easy to store
>> - Plastic gun is durable and impervious to finishes
>>
>> Cons:
>> - Short, non-extendable hose
>> - few adjustments (see "easy to use!")
>> - Loud, especially as the turbine is close by with the short hose
>> - Hose sometimes pops off, as it's a friction fit
>> - I haven't seen a source for spare parts
>> - Only one tip setup available (see "easy to use")
>> - Many gun parts not replaceable (see "easy to use" <G>)
>> - No filter on pickup tube, so filtering the finish before pouring it
>> into the cub is extra important.
>>
>> The HF unit actually works great for anything where the user can
>> control the viscosity of the finish. The user MUST get the finish
>> into a narrow range, as the gun isn't really adjustable, and no other
>> tip/needle setups are available. This ranges from really easy to do
>> with nitrocellulose lacquer and dye stain, to virtually impossible
>> with many waterborne products and latex paints. Most phenolic and
>> polyurethane varnishes, as well as shellac, will fall somewhere in
>> between on the "thinability" scale.
>>
>> For the user who prefers easily thinned products, and is willing to
>> experiment a bit with the included viscosity cup, scrap stock, and a
>> notebook, this is not a problem. Due to the warm air in an HVLP
>> system, different thinners may be required than would be used
>> brushing, to retard drying times.
>>
>> The extra money spent on the high-end unit allows one to spray all
>> kinds of finishes (with extra $75 gun setups), add different feeds
>> (high-capacity pressure pots, gravity, mini-cups), get replacement
>> parts, greatly extend the hose, etc...
>>
>> I still use my HF unit for spraying lighter weight materials like
>> dyes, stains, Olympic Maximum oil, and deck stains.
>>
>> The bottom line:
>>
>> _Once the product is in the proper viscosity range_, I can lay down
>> just as good a finish with the $69 unit, as I can with the expensive
>> system. Both have valuable places in my shop.
>>
>> If you never go outside the capabilities of the HF kit, it may be the
>> only HVLP unit you will ever need. If your favorite finish can't
>> thinned to the proper range, it will be useless.
>>
>> Noting that an extra needle/tip setup for the "pro" unit costs more
>> than the entire HF kit, I'll probably buy another one if this one
>> bites it. <G>
>>
>> Users who think they can dump some finish into a gun and their
>> finishing problems are over will be disappointed with any spray rig,
>> at any price.
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------
>> ** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
>> ---------------------------------------------
>
>
Thanks for a very informative reply. I will prolly check it out soon. I am
only a few miles from the HF here.
--
Swampbug
-----------------------
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:34cbeed4-042d-46ce-9325-39c6d2df16cb@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>I bought the same sprayer you offered in the link. I picked it up 3
> years ago and paid the same for it. It comes with 3 different tips
> and nozzles. It's a great value and works better than anything else
> I've tried. I haven't done a spray job yet that I'm disappointed
> with. I've sprayed everything except shellac (including waterborne
> finishes). I've had no problems at all getting what I consider to be
> perfect results. The only issue has been dust and bugs but I made a
> spray booth to take care of that. You can only change flow and
> viscosity but that's enough for great results. My brother has an
> accuspray setup at work that I've borrowed and I can't say it does any
> better than the cheap HF model. More settings with the Accuspray
> means more experience required and more variables to screw up. Same
> thing goes with air brushes. My brother has a single action and a
> double action brush. I do a lot better with the single action because
> of fewer settings.
>
> Getting viscosity correct is pretty easy. I don't even use the drip
> cup. I'll use paint as an example. Fill the spray cup about 1/2 way
> with paint and then add about 1/4 cup of thinning agent. I use
> flowtrol/penetrol and also use mineral spirits when doing oil based
> enamel. I use both for reasons I won't get into here. After adding
> some type of thinner, stir and look at how the paint moves around.
> You can gauge viscosity this way. It should look about like heavy
> cream. I also pull out the stir stick and watch the paint stream
> off. This is also useful (keep a count). After getting the viscosity
> to where you want it, close the nozzle all the way and then open to a
> conservative flow. Test on some scrap and look at the droplets.
> Adjust the flow to get the desired coverage. If the drops are
> splotchy and you can't resolve by slowing the flow then the paint
> needs to be thinner. If the paint runs then you've got it too thin.
>
> Same goes for any material really. There's a lot more to spraying
> like distance to the work, temperature and so on but you'll figure
> that out through use. All turbines put out heat but that can be
> remedied (if needed) by working in shorter time periods. I've sprayed
> 20 minutes straight without issues. I've sprayed furniture, siding,
> interior walls, moulding, metal and even canvas with this sprayer.
>
> One other point...you don't need to clean the sprayer after every
> use. It just depends on how much material vs air is left in the cup.
> I leave material in it for a couple of weeks at a time. It's a good
> idea to swirl the cup and squirt out a couple of sprays every other
> day but that's not even necessary. The only time I had something
> start to dry in the cup was after 4 weeks. The paint dried to the
> inside of the cup but was really easy to get off.
>
> So from somebody who actually has this sprayer, yes I'd recommend it.
> Especially for the price. You can find a lot more opinions on this
> sprayer with a decent google search.
Thanks for a very informative reply. I will prolly check it out soon. I am
only a few miles from the HF here.
I hope this posts. . .having news server problems
--
Swampbug
-----------------------
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:34cbeed4-042d-46ce-9325-39c6d2df16cb@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>I bought the same sprayer you offered in the link. I picked it up 3
> years ago and paid the same for it. It comes with 3 different tips
> and nozzles. It's a great value and works better than anything else
> I've tried. I haven't done a spray job yet that I'm disappointed
> with. I've sprayed everything except shellac (including waterborne
> finishes). I've had no problems at all getting what I consider to be
> perfect results. The only issue has been dust and bugs but I made a
> spray booth to take care of that. You can only change flow and
> viscosity but that's enough for great results. My brother has an
> accuspray setup at work that I've borrowed and I can't say it does any
> better than the cheap HF model. More settings with the Accuspray
> means more experience required and more variables to screw up. Same
> thing goes with air brushes. My brother has a single action and a
> double action brush. I do a lot better with the single action because
> of fewer settings.
>
> Getting viscosity correct is pretty easy. I don't even use the drip
> cup. I'll use paint as an example. Fill the spray cup about 1/2 way
> with paint and then add about 1/4 cup of thinning agent. I use
> flowtrol/penetrol and also use mineral spirits when doing oil based
> enamel. I use both for reasons I won't get into here. After adding
> some type of thinner, stir and look at how the paint moves around.
> You can gauge viscosity this way. It should look about like heavy
> cream. I also pull out the stir stick and watch the paint stream
> off. This is also useful (keep a count). After getting the viscosity
> to where you want it, close the nozzle all the way and then open to a
> conservative flow. Test on some scrap and look at the droplets.
> Adjust the flow to get the desired coverage. If the drops are
> splotchy and you can't resolve by slowing the flow then the paint
> needs to be thinner. If the paint runs then you've got it too thin.
>
> Same goes for any material really. There's a lot more to spraying
> like distance to the work, temperature and so on but you'll figure
> that out through use. All turbines put out heat but that can be
> remedied (if needed) by working in shorter time periods. I've sprayed
> 20 minutes straight without issues. I've sprayed furniture, siding,
> interior walls, moulding, metal and even canvas with this sprayer.
>
> One other point...you don't need to clean the sprayer after every
> use. It just depends on how much material vs air is left in the cup.
> I leave material in it for a couple of weeks at a time. It's a good
> idea to swirl the cup and squirt out a couple of sprays every other
> day but that's not even necessary. The only time I had something
> start to dry in the cup was after 4 weeks. The paint dried to the
> inside of the cup but was really easy to get off.
>
> So from somebody who actually has this sprayer, yes I'd recommend it.
> Especially for the price. You can find a lot more opinions on this
> sprayer with a decent google search.
On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:40:21 -0600, "Swampbug"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>from HF. . .any comments on this one;
>
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677
Why yes... I can comment.
First, a quick background. I own that exact unit and an $800 Fuji 4
stage setup and have used both extensively. The HVLP in your link is
one of the few items from HF I've been happy buying, ever!
Pros on the HF unit:
- Cheap
- Very easy to use (non-adjustable)
- Lightweight
- Easy to clean
- Good to spectacular results are possible
- Viscosity cup included
- HVLP systems have zero problems due to water and oil in the air line
- No large and expensive compressor needed
- Very portable and easy to store
- Plastic gun is durable and impervious to finishes
Cons:
- Short, non-extendable hose
- few adjustments (see "easy to use!")
- Loud, especially as the turbine is close by with the short hose
- Hose sometimes pops off, as it's a friction fit
- I haven't seen a source for spare parts
- Only one tip setup available (see "easy to use")
- Many gun parts not replaceable (see "easy to use" <G>)
- No filter on pickup tube, so filtering the finish before pouring it
into the cub is extra important.
The HF unit actually works great for anything where the user can
control the viscosity of the finish. The user MUST get the finish
into a narrow range, as the gun isn't really adjustable, and no other
tip/needle setups are available. This ranges from really easy to do
with nitrocellulose lacquer and dye stain, to virtually impossible
with many waterborne products and latex paints. Most phenolic and
polyurethane varnishes, as well as shellac, will fall somewhere in
between on the "thinability" scale.
For the user who prefers easily thinned products, and is willing to
experiment a bit with the included viscosity cup, scrap stock, and a
notebook, this is not a problem. Due to the warm air in an HVLP
system, different thinners may be required than would be used
brushing, to retard drying times.
The extra money spent on the high-end unit allows one to spray all
kinds of finishes (with extra $75 gun setups), add different feeds
(high-capacity pressure pots, gravity, mini-cups), get replacement
parts, greatly extend the hose, etc...
I still use my HF unit for spraying lighter weight materials like
dyes, stains, Olympic Maximum oil, and deck stains.
The bottom line:
_Once the product is in the proper viscosity range_, I can lay down
just as good a finish with the $69 unit, as I can with the expensive
system. Both have valuable places in my shop.
If you never go outside the capabilities of the HF kit, it may be the
only HVLP unit you will ever need. If your favorite finish can't
thinned to the proper range, it will be useless.
Noting that an extra needle/tip setup for the "pro" unit costs more
than the entire HF kit, I'll probably buy another one if this one
bites it. <G>
Users who think they can dump some finish into a gun and their
finishing problems are over will be disappointed with any spray rig,
at any price.
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
"toolman946 via CraftKB.com" <u40139@uwe> wrote in message
news:7e28a9c12aed9@uwe...
> >Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:
>
>>All of the knowledge I posted to properly use the cheap HVLP came from
>>the instruction manual included in the box, rec.woodworking, and Jeff
>>Jewitt's books.
>>
>>As a beginner, I felt that the lack of adjustments and needle choices
>>made it easier to learn. Woodcraft and Rockler actually sell the
>>identical tool for $100.
>>
> If you'd said that the instructions alone had taught you the alchemy
> skills
> necessary to create a decent finish with a low quality unit, such as this
> one
> being discussed, then I'd recommend it too. But that's not the case. I
> doubt
> that you studied the chemistry (and physics) of applying finishes before
> choosing to buy a cheap gun and trying to make it work with your
> accumulated
> knowledge. All the information and advice out there, and in Jeweitt's
> books,
> recommend buying decent equipment.
>
> And if the cheap gun is easily made effective by tweaking the mix, why'd
> you
> spend all that cash on the expensive one? Why not buy another... or a
> couple
> of the cheapos? You know why. "Cuz better equipment gives better results
> (and
> that includes a measure of forgiveness until one's skills develop).
>
> It's one thing to be highly skilled and bend an inferior tool to the
> master's
> will. It's quite another to recommend an inferior tool just because you
> can
> make it work, in spite of having a pro unit, too.
>
I usually trim replies more than I trimmed this one. I'm leaving Barry's
comments in ahead of yours, because I'm curious to know how you got to the
point of your comments, from anything Barry said. I do believe you went off
on a rant over something that was never said.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
toolman946 via CraftKB.com wrote:
>> Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:
>
>> All of the knowledge I posted to properly use the cheap HVLP came from
>> the instruction manual included in the box, rec.woodworking, and Jeff
>> Jewitt's books.
>>
>> As a beginner, I felt that the lack of adjustments and needle choices
>> made it easier to learn. Woodcraft and Rockler actually sell the
>> identical tool for $100.
>>
> If you'd said that the instructions alone had taught you the alchemy skills
> necessary to create a decent finish with a low quality unit, such as this one
> being discussed, then I'd recommend it too. But that's not the case. I doubt
> that you studied the chemistry (and physics) of applying finishes before
> choosing to buy a cheap gun and trying to make it work with your accumulated
> knowledge. All the information and advice out there, and in Jeweitt's books,
> recommend buying decent equipment.
>
> And if the cheap gun is easily made effective by tweaking the mix, why'd you
> spend all that cash on the expensive one? Why not buy another... or a couple
> of the cheapos? You know why. "Cuz better equipment gives better results (and
> that includes a measure of forgiveness until one's skills develop).
>
> It's one thing to be highly skilled and bend an inferior tool to the master's
> will. It's quite another to recommend an inferior tool just because you can
> make it work, in spite of having a pro unit, too.
>
> That's my last word on this.
>
> Cheers
>
Barry, I think he's got a point. From
what I've read of your experience,
you're right up there.
I don't have HVLP, and I will be in the
market for one in the future. I've
bought cheap products before and paid
twice for them. In this argument, I'd
lean towards a more forgiving piece of
machinery that will give me a decent
finish without having to do endless tweaks.
--
Tanus
This is not really a sig.
http://www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Tanus" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>> Barry, I think he's got a point. From what I've read of your experience,
>> you're right up there.
>>
>> I don't have HVLP, and I will be in the market for one in the future. I've
>> bought cheap products before and paid twice for them. In this argument,
>> I'd lean towards a more forgiving piece of machinery that will give me a
>> decent finish without having to do endless tweaks.
>>
>
> Nothwithstanding pure junk, you are setting yourself up for disappointment
> if you believe you can count on the equipment to deliver a decent finish.
> Granted, experienced painters can turn out good work with lesser equipment,
> but the inverse is not true. Buying great equipment is not going to make
> you a good sprayer. Go back and re-read Barry's comments. What he has
> posted in this thread is dead on. If you don't take the time to learn about
> viscosity and some of the other basics - and invest in some trial and error,
> the best equipment in the world is not going to make you a good painter.
> Those basics apply to the good gear as much as they do to the lesser gear.
>
I'm not setting myself up for anything
of the kind. You can't see anywhere in
my post where I said that "you can count
on the equipment to deliver a decent
finish. "
What I said was, I was tired of buying
equipment by price alone. With some
exceptions, you get what you pay for.
And what I implied, and I feel that was
pretty clear, was that I was willing to
pay more to get higher quality stuff.
I've never bought anything in my life
without taking it home and experimenting
with it. But thanks for the advice.
--
Tanus
This is not really a sig.
http://www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Tanus" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>
>> I'm not setting myself up for anything of the kind. You can't see anywhere
>> in my post where I said that "you can count on the equipment to deliver a
>> decent finish. "
>>
>> What I said was, I was tired of buying equipment by price alone. With some
>> exceptions, you get what you pay for. And what I implied, and I feel that
>> was pretty clear, was that I was willing to pay more to get higher quality
>> stuff.
>>
>> I've never bought anything in my life without taking it home and
>> experimenting with it. But thanks for the advice.
>>
>
> Perhaps I read it wrong, but it was the following comment that inspired my
> reply.
>
> "In this argument, I'd lean towards a more forgiving piece of machinery that
> will give me a decent finish without having to do endless tweaks."
>
> It was indeed clear to me that you're willing to pay for quality. The part
> of the above statement that caught my eye was that it appeared to imply that
> the quality equipment will give dramatically better results with less
> effort. That wouldn't be inherently true.
>
Agreed. I t would be. I know where my
skill level lies, and I attempt to
improve that with a variety of means.
Reading, practicing in the shop,
gobbling up gems in here, and ensuring
that the equipment isn't ambushing me
are some of the techniques I use.
My post concentrated on equipment and
its quality because that was the topic
at the time.
If only it were true. If premium tools
alone could turn us all into Frids. Naw,
that wouldn't be any fun either.
--
Tanus
This is not really a sig.
http://www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:0bb9e966-1dea-4225-a2e1-2d7d07ec9e53@k39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>> Wow, what a back and forth.
>>
>> From this I got that the HFT Unit is well worth the $69.00 if one
>> regularly uses the three or four products/finishes delineated and
>> follows the directions in the supplied manual with the exception of
>> possibly switching to longer setup thinning agents to compensate for
>> the hotter air produced by the device.
>>
>> After that first credible and responsive post, it seemed we went off
>> on the old "buy the best o not regret" arguments from folks who
>> appeared (for the most part) not to have any personal hands-on
>> experience with the HFT Unit.
>>
>> I am reminded of the old adage suggesting one remain silent and be
>> thought a tool than to speak and remove all doubt. (;
>>
>>
>>
>
> Spoil-sport. Just for that, you buy the second round of beer.
>
Hehe. He can buy both rounds. I'll see
what I can do about helping Swing with
the girls.
--
Tanus
This is not really a sig.
http://www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/
As the OP here, I have to agree! I hope all of you will accept my humble but
heartfelt thanks!
The conclusion is. . . I will determine which of the two HF units has the
two stage turbine and focus on that one. Either way I can neither afford nor
justify the around $1000+ machines. So for the apparent differences in the
$69/$39 HF and the $200+ CH units, I will go with HF. I luv this group! <s>
--
Swampbug
-----------------------
"Hoosierpopi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jan 12, 7:02 am, B A R R Y <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 21:40:21 -0600, "Swampbug"
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >from HF. . .any comments on this one;
>>
>> >http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=44677
>>
>> Why yes... I can comment.
>>
>> Users who think they can dump some finish into a gun and their
>> finishing problems are over will be disappointed with any spray rig,
>> at any price.
>>
> GREAT POSTING, Thank you very much.
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 16:35:47 GMT, "Twayne"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Great post.
Thanks!
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 13:29:21 -0500, Tanus <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Barry, I think he's got a point. From
>what I've read of your experience,
>you're right up there.
I totally agree, but when I bought that unit I wasn't. That sucker
GOT me to where I am. <G>
I _still_ use it!
>I don't have HVLP, and I will be in the
>market for one in the future. I've
>bought cheap products before and paid
>twice for them. In this argument, I'd
>lean towards a more forgiving piece of
>machinery that will give me a decent
>finish without having to do endless tweaks.
So would I.
However...
The HF unit sprays NC lacquer, shellac, and your typical oil based
polyurethane GREAT after taking 10 minutes to understand the viscosity
cup in the box ! I thought I mentioned that if you use these
products, this tool will work. If not, it won't.
What I mentioned aren't "tweaks", I was simply forced to thin the
finish properly and occasionally use a different thinner. Spray
finishing 101! The wrong viscosity and drying time will also cause
issues with my Fuji rig, or my Critter, or my Badger airbrush.. .
There were NO magic additives. There are NO other "tweaks"! The
unit has adjustments for spray pattern and fluid feed. That's it!
All of this stuff is mentioned in "Troubleshooting" in Jewitt's and
Flexner's books, as well as most every magazine article about spray
finishing.
I'm going to try full strength Ultrastar this week, as I've never
tried it in the HF gun. I'll post my results.
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008 02:58:47 GMT, "toolman946 via CraftKB.com"
<u40139@uwe> wrote:
>With your knowledge and skill level, you could probably lay down a
>professional finish with a curly stray taped to a turkey baster!
The HF HVLP was my first spray rig, except for a Badger airbrush that
ran on canned air.
All of the knowledge I posted to properly use the cheap HVLP came from
the instruction manual included in the box, rec.woodworking, and Jeff
Jewitt's books.
As a beginner, I felt that the lack of adjustments and needle choices
made it easier to learn. Woodcraft and Rockler actually sell the
identical tool for $100.