Good News!
Do you know how simple it is to go to Heaven after this
life has ended?
The good news is that God came from Heaven to earth
in the person of Jesus Christ over 2000 years ago and
died for our past, present and future sins(misdeeds).
He was born in the land of Israel supernaturally to a
virgin Jewish woman named Mary. He lived a sinless life
for thirty-three years and then sacrificed His sinless
blood and died on a cross to pay the death penalty for
our sins.
After Jesus died He rose from the dead three days later
as He said He would. The Holy Bible also tells us that
Jesus Christ ascended into Heaven and that all who accept
Him as their Lord and Saviour will live forever with Him
in Heaven where there is no more death, sorrow, sickness
and pain.
The Holy Bible very clearly explains how simple it is
to be saved and on your way to Heaven, "For if you
confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe
in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you
WILL BE SAVED." (Romans 10:9)
You can be saved right now and on your way to Heaven if
you will open your heart to Jesus and pray the following
prayer:
Dear Jesus Christ, I want to be saved so that I can have
a home in Heaven when I die. I agree with You that I am a
sinner. I believe You love me and want to save me. I
believe that You bled and died on the cross to pay the
penalty for my sins. I believe that You rose from the dead.
Please forgive my sins and come into my heart and be my
Lord and Saviour. Thank You Lord Jesus Christ for
forgiving me and saving me through Your merciful grace.
Amen.
You are now a Christian if you said the prayer and allowed
God to save you. Welcome to the family of God.
Have a great day!
Internet Evangelist R.L. Grossi
1. http://www.biblegateway.com << Free Online Bible
2. http://www.tbn.org/index.php/8/1.html << Free Online Movies
3. http://www.worshipmusic.com/0310263670.html << The Passion Of The
Christ
4. http://www.gieson.com/Library/projects/animations/walk/index.html <<
Animation
5. http://www.carm.org/cults/cultlist.htm << Beware Of Cults
6. http://www.equip.org/free/DH198.htm << About Hell
7. http://www.powertochange.com/questions/qna2.html << Is Jesus God?
AAvK wrote:
> >> I realize that Jesus was a carpenter in a land virtually bereft of
trees
> >
> > It is unclear where the story of Jesus being a carpenter came from;
it isn't in the Bible. He was probably a mason of some sort.
> > So, any mention of him is inappropriate to rec. woodworking. Maybe
rec.stoneworking?
> >
> >
> NASB:
>
> Matthew 13:55
> "Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother
> called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph
> and Simon and Judas?
>
More to the point, didn't Jesus say something about the Makita
inheriting the earth?
FoggyTown
toller wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, "toller"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>It is unclear where the story of Jesus being a carpenter came from;
it
> >>isn't
> >>in the Bible.
> >
> > Yes, it is:
> >
> > <snip> Is not this the carpenter, the son of
> > Mary,
> > the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? <snip>"
[Mark 6:3]
> >
> Is that what it says in the Greek? Check it out.
The majority of manuscripts (all the unicals, most early versions, and
many minuscules) read that way, although there is some variation: some
later MS put the carpenter in the genitive case going with son, thus
Jesus' father was the carpenter ("the son of a carpenter"). It seems
that someone got nervous with the description of the son of god as a
laborer, so they tagged his father one instead.
The word itself is ho tekt=F3n, a participial noun meaning carpentry or
woodworking more specifically, but is in classical greek used not
infrequently for sculptors as well as general artisans and (usually)
skilled laborers.
According to some early commentators Jesus worked on ploughs and yokes
specifically (Max. Tyr. 15.3c; Justin, Dial. 88)
H
Sorry Toller, but the site you reference uses bad logic. The author
first asserts that the word tekt=F3n *can* refer to a carpenter
(woodworking), but that it can also mean a builder in general, such as
of stone. He goes on to imply that his counting of stone and other
(than wood) building terms and passages, since they exceed "wood" terms
and passages in number (and I'm pretty sure he's wrong on the
counting), buttresses his argument that tekt=F3n doesn't mean carpenter
in the NT passage in question. He takes an odd stance--I can't for the
life of me figure out why he fashions this a "theological" question.
What, are there a bunch of "Carpenters for Jesus" cultists out there
asserting that Jesus used only Makita?
Anyway, contrary to his assertions:
1=2E tekt=F3n not merely "can" refer to a carpenter, that's its primary
meaning. All other trades it can refer to are its secondary meanings.
Look it up in any reputable Greek dictionary (Liddel Scott and Jones
for Classical; Bauer Gingrich and Danker for NT, maybe even Kittel).
2=2E He asserts that the word "wood" is used only 4 times in the NT.
Pehaps. But look at the latitude he gives himself for stone and other
trades. A fair comparison would (npi) also look up tree, joinery, the
verb form of tekt=F3n, and so on.
3=2E His statement, "The tradition that Jesus was a carpenter is clearly
not supported by the Bible, but grew in an early Church dominated by
Greek thought" is untenable. Since tekn=F3n is used in the Bible, and
its meaning is primarily of woodworking, then the tradition that Jesus
was a carpenter is clearly Biblical in origin. Perhaps it's not true,
but Mark, apparently, thought so. And while the early church did, as it
spread across the Hellenistic East, become influenced by Greek thought,
the *Biblical* church (the earliest adherents during Jesus' lifetime)
seem relatively uninfluenced, save perhaps Luke, and snippets of Paul
as he encounters Greek thought. Even then you could hardly accuse them
of being classically trained. More to the point, so what? Does the
author think the Greeks had some axe to grind against carpentry (they
did not) and somehow passed that on to the Hebrews? As if.
4=2E He continues with, "What better irony that a carpenter who had spent
most of his life lovingly fashioning wood should die on a wooden cross?
It's a pity that irony is a Greek dramatic device...". True, some
Greeks loved irony and paradox: but if you think there's no irony in
the Hebrew tradition, then you've never read the Bible. I think
immediately of Elijah and the priest of Baal, of Job and his "friends",
even ipse in many passages.
Now, does any of this prove that Jesus was a carpenter? No. Given the
texts, it is at the least more probable that some NT writers thought he
was, but it's not impossible that he was some other type of builder.
Perhaps one more thing we can deduce, a not insignificant thing, is
that the very question was not of much interest to the writers of the
NT.
H=2E
In the original languages [sic] of the NT, I presume you mean Greek, or
perhaps Aramaic (if you mean the primary tongue of the writers of the
Greek NT). I don't know Aramaic, but in Greek the word brother is not
too much unlike the English. I'm sure you could find *some* author in
either language calling his male cousin a brother, but I fail to see
the value of that. In both cultures, membership in smaller social
groups are often considered fraternal, and named that. But in a
familial context, the use of brother usually means brother unless it's
otherwise glossed.
So, like tekt=F3n usually being a woodworker (in thread above), brother
is usually a brother here. Not impossible to be otherwise, but without
a gloss it's certainly improbable. Occam's law operates in this realm.
I know this wades right in the middle of a long history of Christian
fraternal strife about the paternity and family of Jesus, but...hey,
few readers look at the texts about Mary's virginity with a
dispassionate eye either.=20
H=2E
The poster referred to a divorce "rate", which accounts for both the
denominator, number married, and the numerator, number divorced.
Common law couples will not enter the calculation at all.
Unless you mean that conservative people are marrying more, without
sensible forethought, thus leading to a higher rate of divorce?
>Assuming that's true, could it be that the more conservative people
>are marrying more? There's no divorce when live in couples depart.
Cothian wrote:
> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> >> That was one big family too... five brothers altogether and who
knows
> >> how many sisters...
> >>
> > You mean half brothers, don't you?
> > That is one thing I have never heard explained; they trace his
> > ancestory to David through Joseph, but he wasn't related to Joseph.
> > Or am I missing something?
> >
> >
>
> I know this is gonna get me in trouble with the religious nuts but
I'm
> gonna ask anyhow...
> If Joseph and Mary were husband and wife, and Jesus isn't kin to
Joseph,
> doesn't that make Jesus a bastard?
No, Mary was a married woman when Jesus was born. To be
born a bastard one must be born out of wedlock. The identity
of the father is not the determining factor, only the marital
status of the mother at the time of birth.
Mary was already pregnant at the time of the marriage so Joseph
was not cuckolded either.
--
FF
"Wes Stewart"
> Larry Blanchard
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >> The Kansas location is correct
> >Amazing how living in a boring location brings out the religious
> >fanaticism in folks.
> >I live in WA, a beautiful state on the whole, and we have the lowest
> >percent of organized religion believers in the US. Yep, even lower than
> >CA :-).
> But you have a higher divorce rate than that bastion of decadence and
> liberalism. Curious that the "red" states on the whole have higher
> divorce rates than the "blue" states.
Assuming that's true, could it be that the more conservative people
are marrying more? There's no divorce when live in couples depart.
>That's why Dubya wants a
> Constitutional amendment "protecting" marriage and families.
You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.
> Too many
> bible thumpers getting unhitched. Neglecting Nevada, with its quickie
> divorces, Arkansas has the highest divorce rate of all.
> But all is not lost; when two Arkansans get divorced they are still
> brother and sister.
That's for once again reinforcing the connection between
stupidity and bigotry.
<[email protected]>
Fletis said:
> >Assuming that's true, could it be that the more conservative people
> >are marrying more? There's no divorce when live in couples depart.
>
> The poster referred to a divorce "rate", which accounts for both the
> denominator, number married, and the numerator, number divorced.
> Common law couples will not enter the calculation at all.
> Unless you mean that conservative people are marrying more, without
> sensible forethought, thus leading to a higher rate of divorce?
What do you mean 'without sensible forethought'? If livins aren't going
to marry unless they have tested the waters for a number of years
then they absolutely will influence the divorce rate.
"Scott Lurndal"
> "Fletis Humplebacker" <!> writes:
> >
> >"Wes Stewart"
>
> >> But all is not lost; when two Arkansans get divorced they are still
> >> brother and sister.
> >
> >
> >That's for once again reinforcing the connection between
> >stupidity and bigotry.
>
> That's a Joke, son.
>
> (in his best imitation foghorn leghorn voice).
>
> And it's pretty funny, too. Perhaps more apropros of
> the Appalachian regions of the country albeit.
OK dad, bigotry isn't bigotry if you laugh. Thanks for clearing
that up.
"Scott Lurndal"
> "Fletis Humplebacker" <!> writes:
> >"Scott Lurndal"
> >> "Fletis Humplebacker" <!> writes:
> >> >"Wes Stewart"
> >> >> But all is not lost; when two Arkansans get divorced they are still
> >> >> brother and sister.
> >> >That's for once again reinforcing the connection between
> >> >stupidity and bigotry.
> >> That's a Joke, son.
> >> (in his best imitation foghorn leghorn voice).
> >> And it's pretty funny, too. Perhaps more apropros of
> >> the Appalachian regions of the country albeit.
> >OK dad, bigotry isn't bigotry if you laugh. Thanks for clearing
> >that up.
> Now listen, son, I'm-a only gonna say this once:
> Bigotry:
> "The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of
> bigot; Intolerance."
>
> Bigot:
> "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race
> or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."
>
> So son, where is the "intolerance" in the joke, above?
>
> Lighten up.
The intolerance was rather obvious. Who do you
think you're kidding? Your condescending attitude
shows why you don't see it.
<[email protected]>
> A dictionary definition of the above poster...
You misspelled 'condescending'.
"Wes Stewart"
> "Fletis Humplebacker" <!> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Wes Stewart"
> >> Larry Blanchard
> >>
> >> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >> >> The Kansas location is correct
> >
> >
> >> >Amazing how living in a boring location brings out the religious
> >> >fanaticism in folks.
> >
> >> >I live in WA, a beautiful state on the whole, and we have the lowest
> >> >percent of organized religion believers in the US. Yep, even lower than
> >> >CA :-).
> >
> >
> >> But you have a higher divorce rate than that bastion of decadence and
> >> liberalism. Curious that the "red" states on the whole have higher
> >> divorce rates than the "blue" states.
> >
> >
> >Assuming that's true, could it be that the more conservative people
> >are marrying more? There's no divorce when live in couples depart.
>
> There is also no marriage to enter the rate equation.
That assumes they never marry.
> >>That's why Dubya wants a
> >> Constitutional amendment "protecting" marriage and families.
> >
> >
> >You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.
> Perhaps, but here it is from the horse's ass---err---mouth.
>
> http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040224-2.html
>
> For the life of me I fail to understand how someone else's living
> arrangements threaten the strength of my marriage, but GWB thinks that
> it's true. Maybe he's relying on personal experience... one can only
> wonder.
No one suggessed it did. As I said you don't know what you are
talking about.
> From the White House:
>
> "America is a free society, which limits the role of government in the
> lives of our citizens. This commitment of freedom, however, does not
> require the redefinition of one of our most basic social institutions.
> Our government should respect every person, and protect the
> institution of marriage. There is no contradiction between these
> responsibilities."
>
> That no contradiction is seen in this statement is simply amazing.
To you, but not to the majority.
> >> Too many
> >> bible thumpers getting unhitched. Neglecting Nevada, with its quickie
> >> divorces, Arkansas has the highest divorce rate of all.
> >
> >> But all is not lost; when two Arkansans get divorced they are still
> >> brother and sister.
> >
> >
> >That's for once again reinforcing the connection between
> >stupidity and bigotry.
> No... once again proving that wry humor is way too subtle for some
> folks.
Only if 4th grade level bigotry amuzes you.
Just out of curiousity, has anyone reported this moron to Yahoo for
new abuse?
--RC
On 6 Feb 2005 11:51:54 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
>Good News!
>
>Do you know how simple it is to go to Heaven after this
>life has ended?
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad
-- Suzie B
plonk
"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:51:49 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>
> >
> >So son, where is the "intolerance" in the joke, above?
>
> It hinted that right-wing pseudo-christian values may not always
> be on the up and up. If it denigrated muslims, and suggested
> that large numbers should be killed for their good as well as ours,
> it would be considered "patriotism."
>
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:51:49 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
>
>So son, where is the "intolerance" in the joke, above?
It hinted that right-wing pseudo-christian values may not always
be on the up and up. If it denigrated muslims, and suggested
that large numbers should be killed for their good as well as ours,
it would be considered "patriotism."
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:23:59 GMT, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Just out of curiousity, has anyone reported this moron to Yahoo for
> new abuse?
C'mon, I thought you knew me better than to have to ask.
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 15:23:48 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Dave Hinz" wrote in message
>> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:23:59 GMT, wrote:
>> > Just out of curiousity, has anyone reported this moron to Yahoo for
>> > new abuse?
>>
>> C'mon, I thought you knew me better than to have to ask.
>
>
> Don't let the yahoo e-mail address fool you. Complain to AOL ... he is
> posting from an AOL account somewhere in Kansas. This is the second day he
> has posted. Yesterday was the "Flick something or other" about hearts or
> heart surgery.
Yup. His forgery skills are pretty weak.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> The Kansas location is correct
>
Amazing how living in a boring location brings out the religious
fanaticism in folks.
I live in WA, a beautiful state on the whole, and we have the lowest
percent of organized religion believers in the US. Yep, even lower than
CA :-).
--
Homo sapiens is a goal, not a description
toller wrote:
> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Is not this the carpenter, the son of
> > Mary,
> > the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his
> > sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." [Mark 6:2-3]
> >
> Is that what it says in the Greek? Check it out.
From the Strong's Concordance (Hebrew & Greek Dictionary):
The word "carpenter" as used in the book of Mark 6:3
G5045
tekton (tek'-tone) From the base of G5098; an artificer (as producer of
fabrics), that is, (specifically) a craftsman in wood:carpenter.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
"Fletis Humplebacker" <!> writes:
>
>"Scott Lurndal"
>
>> "Fletis Humplebacker" <!> writes:
>> >
>> >"Wes Stewart"
>>
>> >> But all is not lost; when two Arkansans get divorced they are still
>> >> brother and sister.
>> >
>> >
>> >That's for once again reinforcing the connection between
>> >stupidity and bigotry.
>>
>> That's a Joke, son.
>>
>> (in his best imitation foghorn leghorn voice).
>>
>> And it's pretty funny, too. Perhaps more apropros of
>> the Appalachian regions of the country albeit.
>
>
>OK dad, bigotry isn't bigotry if you laugh. Thanks for clearing
>that up.
Now listen, son, I'm-a only gonna say this once:
Bigotry:
"The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of
bigot; Intolerance."
Bigot:
"One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race
or politics and is intolerant of those who differ."
So son, where is the "intolerance" in the joke, above?
Lighten up.
scott
On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:48:40 -0800, Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> The Kansas location is correct
>>
>Amazing how living in a boring location brings out the religious
>fanaticism in folks.
>
>I live in WA, a beautiful state on the whole, and we have the lowest
>percent of organized religion believers in the US. Yep, even lower than
>CA :-).
But you have a higher divorce rate than that bastion of decadence and
liberalism. Curious that the "red" states on the whole have higher
divorce rates than the "blue" states. That's why Dubya wants a
Constitutional amendment "protecting" marriage and families. Too many
bible thumpers getting unhitched. Neglecting Nevada, with its quickie
divorces, Arkansas has the highest divorce rate of all.
But all is not lost; when two Arkansans get divorced they are still
brother and sister.
>> I realize that Jesus was a carpenter in a land virtually bereft of trees
>
> It is unclear where the story of Jesus being a carpenter came from; it isn't in the Bible. He was probably a mason of some sort.
> So, any mention of him is inappropriate to rec. woodworking. Maybe rec.stoneworking?
>
>
NASB:
Matthew 13:55
"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not His mother
called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph
and Simon and Judas?
Mark 6:2
When the Sabbath came, He began to teach in the synagogue;
and the many listeners were astonished, saying, "Where did
this man get these things, and what is this wisdom given to
Him, and such miracles as these performed by His hands?
Mark 6:3
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother
of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His
sisters here with us?" And they took offense at Him.
Looks like Mark 6:3 is the only verse in the NT that says
so to the effect of "he is a carpenter" as far as that one
word goes... In the OT I got zero hits.
But, anyone in Christianity assumes if Joseph was such
then Jesus grew up following in his footsteps, and there
it is. 2005 years ago it coulda been a lot greener there.
Click the my link and you can search for yourself. Free.
--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
"hylourgos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Sorry Toller, but the site you reference uses bad logic. The author
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Well, at least you're not pushing sachets of miracle water..... All I need
to know now is if a Jesada router bit will get me further into heaven than a
CMT bit or what?? If I take a vow of poverty, will that cheapie dovetail jig
ensure my ascendance because of the hardship I endure in it's use?
My Dad fought in WW2.. I'm sure he got drunk once or twice and made
mistakes.... now you tell me his mistakes are mine? When I was young (in the
late sixties) I did some wierd sh*t.... now my son is double bad since he is
carrying the burden of Popops misdemeanours plus mine plus his own. That's a
prety hefty load to dump on a 17 year old.
I realize that Jesus was a carpenter in a land virtually bereft of trees (
miraculous in its own right).... Did he agonize over the decision to use a
pinned MT or sliding dovetail? (treading on dangerous ground) how was his
cross constructed?.Be happy we aren't still measuring stuf in cubits.
The good news is that we all have freedom of choice the bad newsis that you
will never read this reply... you have an agenda ... I have a life...
Complaint forwarded to [email protected]
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Is that what it says in the Greek? Check it out.
Beats me -- I'm not an expert in Greek. Are you?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
> I know this is gonna get me in trouble with the religious nuts but I'm
> gonna ask anyhow...
> If Joseph and Mary were husband and wife, and Jesus isn't kin to Joseph,
> doesn't that make Jesus a bastard?
Geez; even it if does, so what? If you accept him, it doesn't matter; and
if you don't accept him, it doesn't matter.
"Fletis Humplebacker" <!> writes:
>
>"Wes Stewart"
>> But all is not lost; when two Arkansans get divorced they are still
>> brother and sister.
>
>
>That's for once again reinforcing the connection between
>stupidity and bigotry.
That's a Joke, son.
(in his best imitation foghorn leghorn voice).
And it's pretty funny, too. Perhaps more apropros of
the Appalachian regions of the country albeit.
"OldNick" < wrote in message
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 15:23:48 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> vaguely
> So we disagree on states, but the abuse locations are the same.
The Kansas location is correct ... The Virginia location is one of AOL's
NOC's that handles 63 class B address spaces, 172.128.0.0 - 172.191.255.255,
and those cover a _lot_ of territory, including numerous states.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
> Yes, it is:
> "And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and
> many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these
> things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty
> works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary,
> the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his
> sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." [Mark 6:2-3]
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
> Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
> And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
That was one big family too... five brothers altogether and who knows
how many sisters...
--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:23:59 GMT, wrote:
> > Just out of curiousity, has anyone reported this moron to Yahoo for
> > new abuse?
>
> C'mon, I thought you knew me better than to have to ask.
Don't let the yahoo e-mail address fool you. Complain to AOL ... he is
posting from an AOL account somewhere in Kansas. This is the second day he
has posted. Yesterday was the "Flick something or other" about hearts or
heart surgery.
For anyone wanting to complain to the proper place:
Target: 172.173.51.7
Node Data
Reg IP Address Location Node Name
172.173.51.7 38.000N, 98.000W acad3307.ipt.aol.com
Target: 172.140.53.196
Node Data
Reg IP Address Location Node Name
172.140.53.196 38.000N, 98.000W ac8c35c4.ipt.aol.com
OrgAbuseHandle: AOL382-ARIN
OrgAbuseName: Abuse
OrgAbusePhone: +1-703-265-4670
OrgAbuseEmail: [email protected]
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
No, it's "Shock and Awe"
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 08:25:47 -0800, "Fletis Humplebacker" <!> wrote:
>plonk
>
>"GregP" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 22:51:49 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >So son, where is the "intolerance" in the joke, above?
>>
>> It hinted that right-wing pseudo-christian values may not always
>> be on the up and up. If it denigrated muslims, and suggested
>> that large numbers should be killed for their good as well as ours,
>> it would be considered "patriotism."
>>
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>> That was one big family too... five brothers altogether and who knows
>> how many sisters...
>>
> You mean half brothers, don't you?
> That is one thing I have never heard explained; they trace his
> ancestory to David through Joseph, but he wasn't related to Joseph.
> Or am I missing something?
>
>
I know this is gonna get me in trouble with the religious nuts but I'm
gonna ask anyhow...
If Joseph and Mary were husband and wife, and Jesus isn't kin to Joseph,
doesn't that make Jesus a bastard?
"AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote in news:m_ONd.44784$mt.13830@fed1read03:
>
>> I know this is gonna get me in trouble with the religious nuts but I'm
>> gonna ask anyhow...
>> If Joseph and Mary were husband and wife, and Jesus isn't kin to Joseph,
>> doesn't that make Jesus a bastard?
>
>
> Nope. He is not a bastard... there is a reson, you wanna know why?
>
mmmm, do tell.
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> Cothian wrote:
>> "toller" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> >> That was one big family too... five brothers altogether and who
> knows
>> >> how many sisters...
>> >>
>> > You mean half brothers, don't you?
>> > That is one thing I have never heard explained; they trace his
>> > ancestory to David through Joseph, but he wasn't related to Joseph.
>> > Or am I missing something?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> I know this is gonna get me in trouble with the religious nuts but
> I'm
>> gonna ask anyhow...
>> If Joseph and Mary were husband and wife, and Jesus isn't kin to
> Joseph,
>> doesn't that make Jesus a bastard?
>
> No, Mary was a married woman when Jesus was born. To be
> born a bastard one must be born out of wedlock. The identity
> of the father is not the determining factor, only the marital
> status of the mother at the time of birth.
>
> Mary was already pregnant at the time of the marriage so Joseph
> was not cuckolded either.
>
Theres an answer I can live with, thanks.
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:34:59 -0500, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
>toller wrote:
>
>> "Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > Is not this the carpenter, the son of
>> > Mary,
>> > the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his
>> > sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." [Mark 6:2-3]
>> >
>> Is that what it says in the Greek? Check it out.
>
>From the Strong's Concordance (Hebrew & Greek Dictionary):
>
>The word "carpenter" as used in the book of Mark 6:3
>
>G5045
>tekton (tek'-tone) From the base of G5098; an artificer (as producer of
>fabrics), that is, (specifically) a craftsman in wood:carpenter.
My understanding is that Strong's is pretty reliable. One must be
careful with various translations when the translator does not also take
into account the historical time during which the word was used. As we
have seen with English, words' meanings change over time. IIRC, Strong's
is historically correct for the most part -- a good check would be to look
up the work "baptiso" -- at one time the word meant to wash by immersion,
but during Christ's time it had come to mean washing by any means (there
are documents from the era that speak of "baptiso" the tables -- obviously
not immersion). It is possible that the meaning that was given in the web
site referenced by one of the posters used a meaning for tekton that was
either prevalent before or after the era in question.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety
Army General Richard Cody
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
On Mon, 7 Feb 2005 10:48:40 -0800, Larry Blanchard
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I live in WA, a beautiful state on the whole, and we have the lowest
>percent of organized religion believers in the US. Yep, even lower than
>CA :-).
I don't know: did you leave out all the people
that belong to Microsoft ?
In article <TtyNd.38480$mt.36732@fed1read03>, "AAvK" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>That was one big family too... five brothers altogether and who knows
>how many sisters...
According to several sources I've read, in the original languages of the New
Testament the same word is used for "brother" and for "male cousin". So it
isn't necessarily such a big family...
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 15:23:48 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> vaguely
proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email
Well that';s interesting
A search of 172.173.51.7
on http://www.mse.co.jp/ip_domain/index_e.shtml
gives me:
OrgName: America Online
OrgID: AOL
Address: 22000 AOL Way
City: Dulles
StateProv: VA
PostalCode: 20166
Country: US
So we disagree on states, but the abuse locations are the same.
>Don't let the yahoo e-mail address fool you. Complain to AOL ... he is
>posting from an AOL account somewhere in Kansas. This is the second day he
>has posted. Yesterday was the "Flick something or other" about hearts or
>heart surgery.
"hylourgos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Sorry Toller, but the site you reference uses bad logic. The author
first asserts that the word tektón *can* refer to a carpenter
(woodworking), but that it can also mean a builder in general, such as
of stone. He goes on to imply that his counting of stone and other
(than wood) building terms and passages, since they exceed "wood" terms
and passages in number (and I'm pretty sure he's wrong on the
counting), buttresses his argument that tektón doesn't mean carpenter
in the NT passage in question. He takes an odd stance--I can't for the
life of me figure out why he fashions this a "theological" question.
What, are there a bunch of "Carpenters for Jesus" cultists out there
asserting that Jesus used only Makita?
Anyway, contrary to his assertions:
1. tektón not merely "can" refer to a carpenter, that's its primary
meaning. All other trades it can refer to are its secondary meanings.
Look it up in any reputable Greek dictionary (Liddel Scott and Jones
for Classical; Bauer Gingrich and Danker for NT, maybe even Kittel).
2. He asserts that the word "wood" is used only 4 times in the NT.
Pehaps. But look at the latitude he gives himself for stone and other
trades. A fair comparison would (npi) also look up tree, joinery, the
verb form of tektón, and so on.
3. His statement, "The tradition that Jesus was a carpenter is clearly
not supported by the Bible, but grew in an early Church dominated by
Greek thought" is untenable. Since teknón is used in the Bible, and
its meaning is primarily of woodworking, then the tradition that Jesus
was a carpenter is clearly Biblical in origin. Perhaps it's not true,
but Mark, apparently, thought so. And while the early church did, as it
spread across the Hellenistic East, become influenced by Greek thought,
the *Biblical* church (the earliest adherents during Jesus' lifetime)
seem relatively uninfluenced, save perhaps Luke, and snippets of Paul
as he encounters Greek thought. Even then you could hardly accuse them
of being classically trained. More to the point, so what? Does the
author think the Greeks had some axe to grind against carpentry (they
did not) and somehow passed that on to the Hebrews? As if.
4. He continues with, "What better irony that a carpenter who had spent
most of his life lovingly fashioning wood should die on a wooden cross?
It's a pity that irony is a Greek dramatic device...". True, some
Greeks loved irony and paradox: but if you think there's no irony in
the Hebrew tradition, then you've never read the Bible. I think
immediately of Elijah and the priest of Baal, of Job and his "friends",
even ipse in many passages.
Now, does any of this prove that Jesus was a carpenter? No. Given the
texts, it is at the least more probable that some NT writers thought he
was, but it's not impossible that he was some other type of builder.
Perhaps one more thing we can deduce, a not insignificant thing, is
that the very question was not of much interest to the writers of the
NT.
H.
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 20:25:21 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
>"Fletis Humplebacker" <!> writes:
>>
>>"Wes Stewart"
>
>>> But all is not lost; when two Arkansans get divorced they are still
>>> brother and sister.
>>
>>
>>That's for once again reinforcing the connection between
>>stupidity and bigotry.
>
>That's a Joke, son.
"Ah say, ah say the boy's 'bout as sharp as a bowling ball."
>
>(in his best imitation foghorn leghorn voice).
>
>And it's pretty funny, too. Perhaps more apropros of
>the Appalachian regions of the country albeit.
watson - foghorn leghorn fan, foghorn fan, foghat fan, fog fan...
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)
On 6 Feb 2005 20:53:13 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:23:59 GMT, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Just out of curiousity, has anyone reported this moron to Yahoo for
>> new abuse?
>
>C'mon, I thought you knew me better than to have to ask.
Yeah well hope springs eternal.
--RC
Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad
-- Suzie B
> Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
> Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad
> -- Suzie B
A tomato, cucumber, bell pepper, hot peppers, melons of all kinds...
soft summer and hard squashes... all related variations of the same
group. That is wisdom. But what is the name of that group???
--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
> I know this is gonna get me in trouble with the religious nuts but I'm
> gonna ask anyhow...
> If Joseph and Mary were husband and wife, and Jesus isn't kin to Joseph,
> doesn't that make Jesus a bastard?
Nope. He is not a bastard... there is a reson, you wanna know why?
--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005 08:42:52 -0800, "Fletis Humplebacker" <!> wrote:
>
>"Wes Stewart"
>> Larry Blanchard
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> >> The Kansas location is correct
>
>
>> >Amazing how living in a boring location brings out the religious
>> >fanaticism in folks.
>
>> >I live in WA, a beautiful state on the whole, and we have the lowest
>> >percent of organized religion believers in the US. Yep, even lower than
>> >CA :-).
>
>
>> But you have a higher divorce rate than that bastion of decadence and
>> liberalism. Curious that the "red" states on the whole have higher
>> divorce rates than the "blue" states.
>
>
>Assuming that's true, could it be that the more conservative people
>are marrying more? There's no divorce when live in couples depart.
There is also no marriage to enter the rate equation.
>
>
>>That's why Dubya wants a
>> Constitutional amendment "protecting" marriage and families.
>
>
>You don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.
Perhaps, but here it is from the horse's ass---err---mouth.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040224-2.html
For the life of me I fail to understand how someone else's living
arrangements threaten the strength of my marriage, but GWB thinks that
it's true. Maybe he's relying on personal experience... one can only
wonder.
From the White House:
"America is a free society, which limits the role of government in the
lives of our citizens. This commitment of freedom, however, does not
require the redefinition of one of our most basic social institutions.
Our government should respect every person, and protect the
institution of marriage. There is no contradiction between these
responsibilities."
That no contradiction is seen in this statement is simply amazing.
>
>> Too many
>> bible thumpers getting unhitched. Neglecting Nevada, with its quickie
>> divorces, Arkansas has the highest divorce rate of all.
>
>> But all is not lost; when two Arkansans get divorced they are still
>> brother and sister.
>
>
>That's for once again reinforcing the connection between
>stupidity and bigotry.
No... once again proving that wry humor is way too subtle for some
folks.
>
>
In article <[email protected]>, "toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>It is unclear where the story of Jesus being a carpenter came from; it isn't
>in the Bible.
Yes, it is:
"And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and
many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these
things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty
works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary,
the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his
sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." [Mark 6:2-3]
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
> Beats me -- I'm not an expert in Greek. Are you?
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
>
Personaly I am not. I merely have software reference material.
Mark 6:3 in english as a direct translation from original greek as
word for word:
Not this man is the carpenter, the Son of Mary and brother of James
and Joses and Judas and Simon? And not are the sisters of him here
with us? And And they were offended in(at) him. And said to them
Jesus[,] not is a prophet unhonoured except in the nativeplace of him
and among the relatives of him and in the house of him.
That is the whole of verse 3 in Greek, in translation it is in two verses
in the various versions and translations, after the definition:
Word: carpenter - strong's number: G5045
???????
tekto?n
tek'-tone
From the base of G5098; an artificer (as producer of fabrics), that is,
(specifically) a craftsman in wood: - carpenter.
1901 American standard version
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and
Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?
And they were offended in him.
Mark 6:4
And Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honor, save in his
own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
New American Standard Bible:
Mark 6:3
"Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James and
Joses and Judas and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?" And
they took offense at Him.
Mark 6:4
Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor except in
his hometown and among his own relatives and in his own household."
Modern King James version (not the New King James version)
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James and
Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?
And they were offended at Him.
Mark 6:4
But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honor, except in his
native-place, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
King James version:
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and
Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?
And they were offended at him.
Mark 6:4
But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his
own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
1611 original King James Version:
Mar 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the sonne of Mary, the brother of Iames and
Ioses, and of Iuda, and Simon? And are not his sisters heere with vs?
And they were offended at him.
Mar 6:4
But Iesus sayde vnto them, A Prophet is not without honour, but in his
owne countrey, and among his owne kinne, and in his owne house.
Analytical-Literal Translation
Mark 6:3
"This is the craftsman, the Son of Mary and Brother of James and Joses
and Judas and Simon, is it not? And His sisters are here with us, are
they not?" And they were caused to stumble because of Him [fig., were
having doubts about Him].
Mark 6:4
But Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his
hometown and among his relatives and in his own house."
Young's Literal Translation
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and
Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?'
--and they were being stumbled at him.
Mark 6:4
And Jesus said to them--`A prophet is not without honour, except in his
own country, and among his kindred, and in his own house;'
1833 Webster Bible
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and
Joses, and of Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us?
And they were offended at him.
Mark 6:4
But Jesus said to them, A prophet is not without honor, but in his own
country, and among his own kindred, and in his own house.
James Murdock New Testament
Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James and
of Joses and of Judas and of Simon? And are not his sisters here with
us? And they were stumbled in him.
Mark 6:4
And Jesus said to them: There is no prophet who is little, except in his
own city, and among his kindred, and at home.
World English Bible
Mark 6:3
Isn't this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, Joses,
Judas, and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" They were offended
at him.
Mark 6:4
Jesus said to them, "A prophet is not without honor, except in his own
country, and among his own relatives, and in his own house."
Good News Bible
Mark 6:3
Isn't he the carpenter, the son of Mary, and the brother of James, Joseph,
Judas, and Simon? Aren't his sisters living here?" And so they rejected him.
Mark 6:4
Jesus said to them, "Prophets are respected everywhere except in their own
hometown and by their relatives and their family."
Uh yeah... that is what the Greek says, that he was a carpenter.
--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
"toller" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> That was one big family too... five brothers altogether and who knows
>> how many sisters...
>>
> You mean half brothers, don't you?
> That is one thing I have never heard explained; they trace his ancestory to David through Joseph, but he wasn't related to Joseph.
> Or am I missing something?
>
Joseph is descended of king David and not the bio father of Jesus, correct.
BUT (and this is a big but), he was decended of David via mother Mary.
Adam > Abraham > King David and Bathsheba bore Nathan, where Mary
descended from. You'll see it in Luke Ch. 3 without the mention of
Bathsheba but she and David also bore Solomon > Jechonias > Joseph the
husband of Mary, they were both descended directly of David and Bathsheba.
Jesus is not descended of king Solomon. The lines are a LOT longer than I
mention here. Click that link in my sig, download and see the Rev. Larkin
charts, some amazing work.
--
Alex
cravdraa_at-yahoo_dot-com
not my site: http://www.e-sword.net/
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "toller"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>It is unclear where the story of Jesus being a carpenter came from; it
>>isn't
>>in the Bible.
>
> Yes, it is:
>
> "And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue:
> and
> many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these
> things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such
> mighty
> works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of
> Mary,
> the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his
> sisters here with us? And they were offended at him." [Mark 6:2-3]
>
Is that what it says in the Greek? Check it out.