I would like to develop a working relationship with other woodworking
shops to check our estimates. You email 3 people measurements,
materials, timing, and designs, and you get 3 estimates for your job.
One other guy in the group sends you the same info, and you prepare an
estimate for him, etc. Every job you sell, you get 3 other estimates
to compare to your estimate. You also prepare 4 times more estimates
than you build and get paid for. I hate estimating (especially free
estimates!), but I think the work would do me good, and if I don't lose
on one job in the next year, it could save me thousands of dollars.
Here's an example: I have a 12'wide x 8" tall wall with a fireplace in
the middle. I sold cherry cabinets, with beveled glass uppers, lights,
mantle, etc.....How much? I'll send you designs, materials, my costs,
and you tell me how much you would charge. Here's the answer. I sold
it for $10,500. If the other 3 in our group sent me emails for $8,500,
$10,000, and $12,000, I feel like my estimate is good. On the other
hand I receive prices of $18,000, $22,000, and $29,000 for a job I sold
for $10,500... at this point I should probably rethink my estimate
before I lose $6,000-$10,000 on one job.
So I'm looking for 3 companies to join me in estimating. I am willing
to prepare 3x the estimates I prepare already. If you are interested,
check out my web site TrimlineDale.Tripod.com, send me your website
address and an email.
Here's some initial ideas:
Companies that build similiar cabinets/furniture.
Consistancy. If you always estimate 20% higher than I can charge, I'll
multiply your estimate by .8 -as long as it's consistant.
No 2 companies that use identical estimating software.
Out of state could be nice as there would be no competition, although
developing networking would be great. I'm in chicago, and I pay a lot
of rent. If I connect with a rural shop for example, and they give me
a very low estimate, we should look into shipping, and have you build
my job and ship it to me. Of course if I'm swamped, I have another
company to refer and vise versa.
Some sort of payment. If I ask for 3 estimates a month, and another
member asks for 20, this dosen't work. I hate estimating. We could
agree upon how many we normally need per month, and pay above that. Or
someone could only send 3 to this group, and start another group? If I
had to pay $40 per estimate becuase I was asking for too many, I might
skip it and estimate alone. On the other hand if it's a $16,000 job, I
might pay everyone as that's 1% of the job.
Timing. I think this should be manditory. I like to get estimates
back in 3 days. We should decide on a firm time shedule. I would be
willing to call everyone if it's a big job for me, and if I get a call,
I could tell you how busy I am, and how soon I could get your bid over.
I'm flexible. If everyone likes a week, that's it. If 1 guy wants 1
day, and another wants 2 weeks, we meet in the middle, but once we
decide, everyone sticks to it.
Thanks for your interest.
My info is that I have a 4,000 sq ft shop, 4 employees, we design,
build, finish and install custom cabinets and furniture in Chicago.
Dale Meiners
Trimline Finish Carpentry
312-593-3253
Trimlinedale.tripod.com
I should read more carefully before posting replies.
"At what point does collaborating with competitors become price-fixing?
Is this the Illinois Attorney General trolling? "
I have no formal legal training, but it would seem that when a group of
competitors has a formal agreement for the specific purpose of setting
prices for the sole purpose of making sure that each participant can be
assured of obtaining the highest price on every job.....
And now that someone in the Chicago has taken the effort to spell it
out quite clearly in writing for the whole world to see well....
A.M. Wood wrote:
> I should read more carefully before posting replies.
>
> "At what point does collaborating with competitors become price-fixing?
>
> Is this the Illinois Attorney General trolling? "
>
> I have no formal legal training, but it would seem that when a group of
> competitors has a formal agreement for the specific purpose of setting
> prices for the sole purpose of making sure that each participant can be
> assured of obtaining the highest price on every job.....
>
> And now that someone in the Chicago has taken the effort to spell it
> out quite clearly in writing for the whole world to see well....
How are they competitiors? The OP specifically said he'd prefer that
the other people be out of state so they wouldn't be competitiors.
There's more collusion going on on golf courses than what he is
proposing.
R
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Here's some initial ideas:
>
> Companies that build similiar cabinets/furniture.
>
> Consistancy. If you always estimate 20% higher than I can charge, I'll
> multiply your estimate by .8 -as long as it's consistant.
This is dangerously close to collusion - price fixing.
>
> Timing. I think this should be manditory. I like to get estimates
> back in 3 days. We should decide on a firm time shedule. I would be
> willing to call everyone if it's a big job for me, and if I get a call,
> I could tell you how busy I am, and how soon I could get your bid over.
> I'm flexible. If everyone likes a week, that's it. If 1 guy wants 1
> day, and another wants 2 weeks, we meet in the middle, but once we
> decide, everyone sticks to it.
>
Doubtful you could get concurrance on this sort of thing. As you know from
your own experience, factors ranging from workload to personality generally
result in less than ideal real world workings.
> Thanks for your interest.
>
> My info is that I have a 4,000 sq ft shop, 4 employees, we design,
> build, finish and install custom cabinets and furniture in Chicago.
Just a guess, but my bet is despite the pain-in-the-arse that estimating is,
you'll end up simply doing your own and carrying on as you are.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
RicodJour wrote:
> A.M. Wood wrote:
>
>>I should read more carefully before posting replies.
>>"At what point does collaborating with competitors become price-fixing?
>>Is this the Illinois Attorney General trolling? "
>>
>>I have no formal legal training, but it would seem that when a group of
>>competitors has a formal agreement for the specific purpose of setting
>>prices for the sole purpose of making sure that each participant can be
>>assured of obtaining the highest price on every job.....
>>
>>And now that someone in the Chicago has taken the effort to spell it
>>out quite clearly in writing for the whole world to see well....
>
>
> How are they competitiors? The OP specifically said he'd prefer that
> the other people be out of state so they wouldn't be competitiors.
> There's more collusion going on on golf courses than what he is
> proposing.
You'd need a way to anonymize the participants, as well as ensure that
they are not in direct competition, to prevent an abuse.
Otherwise a proxy could be used to communicate with a neighbor company.
er
--
email not valid
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "A.M. Wood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"Dangerously close" is an understatement.
>>
>>It is however perfectly acceptable to solicit bids for subcontract work
>>from a list/network of pre-approved suppliers
> Subs and suppliers are not competitors. Entirely different situation.
Depends on who is making the solicitation, I would think. Wink wink,
nudge nudge, say no more.
er
--
email not valid
[email protected] wrote:
> I would like to develop a working relationship with other woodworking
> shops to check our estimates. You email 3 people measurements,
> materials, timing, and designs, and you get 3 estimates for your job.
> One other guy in the group sends you the same info, and you prepare an
> estimate for him, etc. Every job you sell, you get 3 other estimates
> to compare to your estimate. You also prepare 4 times more estimates
> than you build and get paid for. I hate estimating (especially free
> estimates!), but I think the work would do me good, and if I don't lose
> on one job in the next year, it could save me thousands of dollars.
> Here's an example: I have a 12'wide x 8" tall wall with a fireplace in
> the middle. I sold cherry cabinets, with beveled glass uppers, lights,
> mantle, etc.....How much? I'll send you designs, materials, my costs,
> and you tell me how much you would charge. Here's the answer. I sold
> it for $10,500. If the other 3 in our group sent me emails for $8,500,
> $10,000, and $12,000, I feel like my estimate is good. On the other
> hand I receive prices of $18,000, $22,000, and $29,000 for a job I sold
> for $10,500... at this point I should probably rethink my estimate
> before I lose $6,000-$10,000 on one job.
> So I'm looking for 3 companies to join me in estimating. I am willing
> to prepare 3x the estimates I prepare already. If you are interested,
> check out my web site TrimlineDale.Tripod.com, send me your website
> address and an email.
>
> Here's some initial ideas:
>
> Companies that build similiar cabinets/furniture.
>
> Consistancy. If you always estimate 20% higher than I can charge, I'll
> multiply your estimate by .8 -as long as it's consistant.
>
> No 2 companies that use identical estimating software.
>
> Out of state could be nice as there would be no competition, although
> developing networking would be great. I'm in chicago, and I pay a lot
> of rent. If I connect with a rural shop for example, and they give me
> a very low estimate, we should look into shipping, and have you build
> my job and ship it to me. Of course if I'm swamped, I have another
> company to refer and vise versa.
>
> Some sort of payment. If I ask for 3 estimates a month, and another
> member asks for 20, this dosen't work. I hate estimating. We could
> agree upon how many we normally need per month, and pay above that. Or
> someone could only send 3 to this group, and start another group? If I
> had to pay $40 per estimate becuase I was asking for too many, I might
> skip it and estimate alone. On the other hand if it's a $16,000 job, I
> might pay everyone as that's 1% of the job.
>
> Timing. I think this should be manditory. I like to get estimates
> back in 3 days. We should decide on a firm time shedule. I would be
> willing to call everyone if it's a big job for me, and if I get a call,
> I could tell you how busy I am, and how soon I could get your bid over.
> I'm flexible. If everyone likes a week, that's it. If 1 guy wants 1
> day, and another wants 2 weeks, we meet in the middle, but once we
> decide, everyone sticks to it.
>
> Thanks for your interest.
>
> My info is that I have a 4,000 sq ft shop, 4 employees, we design,
> build, finish and install custom cabinets and furniture in Chicago.
> Dale Meiners
> Trimline Finish Carpentry
> 312-593-3253
> Trimlinedale.tripod.com
>
At what point does collaborating with competitors become price-fixing?
Is this the Illinois Attorney General trolling?
"A.M. Wood" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Dangerously close" is an understatement.
>
> It is however perfectly acceptable to solicit bids for subcontract work
> from a list/network of pre-approved suppliers
>
> :)
>
Subs and suppliers are not competitors. Entirely different situation.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
[email protected] wrote:
> I would like to develop a working relationship with other woodworking
> shops to check our estimates.
<[email protected]> wrote:
>At what point does collaborating with competitors become price-fixing?
>Is this the Illinois Attorney General trolling?
You are giving our (Illinois) politicians way to much credit.
Mark
(sixoneeight) = 618