never again

On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 3:22:07 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
=20
> I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar, sanded=
=20
> well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I sprayed it=20
> yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.
>=20
> I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full well=
=20
> that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW difficul=
t,=20
> especially black (other than flat black).
>=20
> Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint, sand, pai=
nt,=20
> etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I may=
=20
> switch to flat :(
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> dadiOH

I hate to see that. With all the time and effort you have put here over th=
e years to help those in a bind with their finishing efforts, it is frustra=
ting to see hear of you having some serious problems. You certainly have t=
he experience to know that no matter your experience level, no matter your =
techniques, sometimes no matter... things just don't work right.

Wish I was there to help. At the least we could smoke a cigar and give the=
whole thing a good cussin'.

The only small detail I would suggest would be to strip the finish off rath=
er than to sand and sand and sand. Even with sanding, i the surface has fo=
uling, it might not be removed with sanding.

I don't know that I could help in any way, but if you would post some detai=
ls such as type of finish, application method, and all steps, maybe I could=
help. On the other hand, it might take more time to type it all out than =
to just get in the middle of the repairs.

Sorry to see that. Even as long as I have been doing finshing, I am not on=
ly incredulous when the finish isn't what I want, but really pissed off.

Now is the time that you remember you are a craftsman, and finishing is a c=
raft just like any other. You just don't get it right every time.

Good luck on your fix.

Robert=20

On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 1:19:41 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:

> > Wish I was there to help. At the least we could smoke a cigar and
> > give the whole thing a good cussin'.
>=20
> What, no beer??

Well, that goes without saying! Toss in a good bourbon and you wouldn't be=
able to get rid of me!

> No, it isn't fouling, the problem is that the surface wasn't good enough.=
=20
> As you know, no film is ever any better than the surface upon which it is=
=20
> applied...any ding, unfilled grain, whatever will show. And it shows in=
=20
> spades with semi-gloss black. With white, it would probably be acceptabl=
e.=20
> Even with the black it only looks like hell if there is a reflection of a=
=20
> light surce, either diffuse or specular.

Well, allow me to get in the middle of this. I am sure that many of the th=
ings I will tap out here you already know, but I am typing them simply to m=
ake sure all the bases are covered. =20

> Before the paint the surface looked fine. And with varnish or lacquer it=
=20
> would look fine now. It is just really hard to see imperfections on raw=
=20
> wood, almost as hard with a clear finish. Easier (sometimes) to feel the=
m=20
> rather than see them.

Always. That's why clear coats, tinted coats and stains are so popular. A=
chieving a "piano black" finish is a standard few can master. With that at=
the top of the scale, results with different finishes fall quickly from th=
ere.

> OK. As I said, poplar. Sanded to120 on my drum sander. After joining,=
=20
> sanded again with 120 and a 1/2 sheet Portar Cable sander. Then sanded=
=20
> again with 150, then with a 1/4 sheet sander with 180.
>=20
> Then brushed on clear, dewaxed shellac, 3 heavy coats, dried 2 days.

Remember, this is my take; you mileage may vary. My comments are based on =
my personal experience, mostly by me taking my favorite old route of learni=
ng everything possible the hard way until I figure things out... that being=
said...

There is is no need for three coats of shellac, and certainly with sanding =
sealer, never a need for heavy coats. Heavy coats serve no purpose, and in=
fact can magnify your problems. With a blemish such as a ding, scratch, e=
tc, the shellac will actually >>build up<< around the blemish, actually enh=
ancing its size! This is known in some circles as "pucker". I know this s=
ounds counter intuitive, but trust me on that. This has to do with the spe=
ed of drying of the affected area. The thicker area at the bottom of a hol=
e or scratch dries more slowly than the thinner edges, and as the edges dry=
more quickly they pull up the finish a tiny bit making the hole "pucker". =
Additional coats compound this problem, especially if there is no sanding =
between coats. Trying to fill small holes or scratches with any kind of se=
aler/finish/paint will not only reflect the blemish, but it will build with=
each coat.

So, two things there. First, sanding sealer fills nothing. Properly appli=
ed it is a bondable substrate for almost any finish. Its cured state is a =
semi permeable film which has its property of adhesion as its strongest poi=
nt. It sill stick to almost anything, but its semi permeable nature will a=
llow almost any finish to stick to it as well. Shellac is mistaken used as=
a build finish by woodworkers, when it isn't. Its thinner cousin, the san=
ding sealer is even less so. IF you are using shellac or sanding sealer, t=
he application is the same. Many >>thin<< coats do the trick as it will re=
solvate properly with itself from one coat to the next if the coat is thin =
enough. As with lacquer, when properly applied you can put as many coats o=
f lacquer (or shellac) on any project as long as you apply thin, even coats=
.

Apply your shellac/sealer in thin, wet coats. Allow it to dry and sand betw=
een every coat. This will help hide tiny imperfections, but more important=
ly will provide a consistent, bondable substrate.

Second thing; fill the holes. I don't do a lot of kitchen cabinet refinish=
ing anymore, but actually just finished one about a month ago. All the cab=
inets were beat to hell and back, and it was only about $2K less to refinis=
h the cabinets than it was to replace. But the house was going on the mark=
et after rehab, so refinish it was. Your methodology on your project will =
be the same as mine, so here's what I do. Sand the wood surfaces as smooth=
as possible. In a rake light, mark the offending blemishes with a pencil.=
Fill the holes, no matter how small with Durham's Rock Hard putty. I use=
this for my utility filler for dents, pin holes, scratches, etc., when pai=
nting. I use it to fill screw holes when new hardware doesn't line up (doe=
s it ever...?), gashes on drawer fronts, dents from wear and tear, etc. It=
goes on fast, dries quickly an sands as smooth as a baby's behind. An imp=
ortant note: some surfaces are badly damaged, and the whole surface needs w=
ork. Durham's to the rescue. You can (and I do!) thin the product out wel=
l enough to float out whole surface of drawers, stiles, doors, cabinet side=
s, etc. And it sands easily enough that it makes surface prep an easy deal=
. If I have a series of dents or dings that are fairly large but not too d=
eep, I "enhance" the damage by drilling an 1/8" hole in the dent to give th=
e Durham's more traction. After Durham's, finish your inspection with a ra=
ke light and fill anything left you missed. This is painless, on small hol=
es you can sand in less than an hour, and on large screw holes and dents, y=
ou can sand smooth in a couple.
=20
>=20
> Briefly sanded shellac with 220 and a small sanding block so I could see =
-=20
> more or less - high spots. After that. 320 wet or dry, same size hand=20
> block. I tried to be careful but still cut through the shellac in a coup=
le=20
> of spots. Vacuumed and wiped down well with microfiber after all sanding,=
=20
> BTW. ( knew the cut through spots would show, figured they were shallow=
=20
> enough to disappear after a few coats and more sanding in between).

This can add to your problems. When you cut through your substrate, you pr=
oduce what is known as a "witness line". The witness line is unacceptable =
for any manor of reasons. If you see a witness line between your coats of =
shellac, your shellac didn't resolvate or bond to itself, leaving you with =
a film of air between coats. If you cut through your shellac altogether, t=
hat means you have an exposed edge of finish that is like an ocean wave on =
the beach. One side is water (shellac), the other side is sand (raw wood).=
When using finishes with aggressive solvents in them they will find these=
dissimilar substrates and work to separate them. The damage caused from w=
itness lines can cause bubbles, waves, or even a reflection of the actual l=
ine itself. If you sand though, recoat.

=20
> Next, 3 light coats of Rust Oleum 280721 American Accents Ultra Cover 2X=
=20
> Spray Paint, Semi-Gloss Black. Let it dry 48+ hours, sprayed a couple mo=
re=20
> coats. I don't have spray equipment so I live in rattle can land if I wa=
nt=20
> to spray and - for these 2 1/2" rails and stiles - the spray pattern fro=
m=20
> the cans seems fine. The biggest problem with most rattle can paint is t=
he=20
> necessity of recoating within one hour or after (at least) 48. In the on=
e=20
> hour time frame, it hasn't dried enough to really see what it is like; af=
ter=20
> 48 means sitting on your thumb waiting. In fact, even 48 hours isn't enou=
gh=20
> sometimes...if there is a thick spot a new coat will cause it to reticula=
te=20
> almost immediately, don't know why but I'm guessing from an agressive=20
> solvent.

You are correct. The paint from a rattle can is part of a very sophisticat=
ed system, a combination of resins and carrier/solvents. The reason you ca=
n recoat in such a short time is that the solvents used are extremely "hot"=
, and are likely somewhere in the area of xylene or toluene. So... see my =
comments on puckering, and apply to your surface. Your observations and th=
e cause of what you noticed are spot on.

It is easy to get a good finish on a small project with rattle cans. But t=
o get a really good finish? More trouble than it is worth. The coats of m=
aterial they shoot are nozzle dependent. Additionally, as pressure winds d=
own, so does your atomization of product and the amount coming from the can=
. I find that to be not only the case with all prepackaged sprays, but it =
also differs highly from manufacturer to manufacturer. This makes the lear=
ning curve different on every single product. Even colors are thinned and =
react differently; try spraying a pastel from a can, then go back to your b=
lack. You eon't beleive the difference. Darker =3D harder to work with.
>=20
> What I really need is a high build primer/sealer that sands REALLY easily=
.=20
> In my boat days, I used one from International. Wonderful stuff...dried=
=20
> fast, sandable in an hour and sanded VERY easily. I always brushed it on=
=20
> heavily, lots of brush marks but that didn't matter because of the ease o=
f=20
> sanding. It had originally been formulated for use on Phillipine mahogan=
y=20
> to fill it in one coat. And it did. Most got sanded off leaving a very th=
in,=20
> semi-transparent layer that was smooth as a baby's bottom. It was still=
=20
> made maybe 15 years ago - at about $125/gallon - but when I looked on the=
=20
> web maybe five years ago it had disappeared.

In keeping with my habit of learning things the hard way, I bought a gallon=
of primer/filler from Sherwin Williams. Thinking it was simply a heavy bo=
died primer, I loaded up the guns and sprayed... for about 10 minutes... th=
en nothing. That stuff was meant to be applied with brush/roller only, as =
it had small silicates in it about half the size of a grain of salt. Yup...=
ruined the gun completely doing that, not to mention lost a day on the job=
. Thankfully, SW doesn't sell it anymore locally.

=20
> Then there is the heavy bodied sanding surfacer for autos, either in cans=
or=20
> rattle cans. It is good stuff too but all I have had has been lacquer ba=
sed=20
> and I can't use it now (unless I strip the work) without it eating the=20
> paint. Maybe for the face frames I have yet to make.

Not necessarily. Remember, no amount of priming will repair the blemishes.=
BUT, if it were me, I would try sanding the daylights out of your work to=
get it where you want it appearance wise, fill as needed, wash with lacque=
r thinner, and then apply this http://goo.gl/sBxYD3 withing 20 minutes o=
f your wash. It is the Sherwin Williams equivalent of BIN in the old coppe=
r top can which I can't find anymore. It really dries fast, and cleans up =
easily. It is considered a hybridized primer as it has all kinds of propri=
etary "stuff" from SW in it. IT WORKS. =20

This last job I was on was the first time I used that stuff, and I was surp=
rised that a gallon of it is about the price of a quart and a half of BIN. =
I can't find the old BIN formula I like (which I could spray unthinned)so I=
went to my SW commercial rep and the sold me a gallon of that stuff. I co=
vered a multitude of sins including previous paint remnants in the wood, ol=
d finish remnants, and 35 years of other sins collected in the kitchen that=
I couldn't sand off. All clean up is with mineral spirits, so it is inexp=
ensive to use.

I sprayed it, but when I had to redo a drawer face I didn't get sanded out =
well enough, I brushed it on with no problems.

Part of the cabinets had been "refinished" by at least one of the Marx brot=
hers. No telling what they used (it wasn't urethane) but the SW product ad=
hered very well. One of the cabinets had been replaced and had a white oak=
front with clear lacquer on it. The pores were unfilled, so this was a pe=
rfect test for me to see just how much build power the SW product had. I s=
anded the drawer front smooth, then applied a fairly heavy coat. Remember,=
this is a sanind sealer, but one one that can build unlike a shellac or ni=
trocellulose. I waited a day, then applied another fairl heavy coat. I wa=
ited one more and shot it again. Now the drawer front looked like I painte=
d it flat white. It id take three days more before I couldn't scratch it w=
ith my fingernail, but it sanded out beautifully with 220gr, was very hard,=
and it held the paint extremely well.

With a brush that might have taken only two coats. You should know that wh=
en I was spraying the primer parts of the house were dark and I got a few d=
rips. They sanded out very easily with a block and paper, and weren't dete=
ctible after finish coating.

> I've given some thought to buying one of the inexpensive $100+-, HVLP=20
> sprayers for use when I get to the partitions that will be painted black;=
=20
> however, that is about the only use I will ever have for it and I may jus=
t=20
> use a roller since they will be pretty much hidden.

You will only get a factory flawless finish when spraying, and that won't c=
ome with a rattle can. HVLP can be finicky, and will REQUIRE you to learn =
about thinning, pressures, air caps, etc. Too much to learn.

Were I in your situation, no doubt I would switch to "long oils" alkyds tha=
t are an 8 hour dry. They are very, very forgiving, and can be applied wit=
h pad or roller. i routinely use the 6 inch "weenie" rollers with the shor=
t nap to apply oil based paints on surfaces and the finish is just fine. N=
ot glassy, but if you are using semi gloss anyway, no one will notice. For=
smaller pieces, try a foam brush for application. Not the Harbor Freight =
stuff, but the kind your SW retailer sells. No kidding, if you don't overw=
ork your application, a good quality oil from Sherwin Williams will lay out=
to a near spray finish when you use a roller or foam brush/pad. Don't try=
to use a full sized roller, or a long nap roller. Practice on a primed sc=
rap and you will be amazed at your results.

=20
> Any thoughts you have will be appreciated, especially about a high build=
=20
> primer/sealer/surfacer that sands REALLY easily. Preferably, one that ca=
n=20
> be tinted to dark grey.

Well, you have my new favorite primer. I have shot up about 4 gallons now =
on various projects and it is now my "go to" primer. Just in case the link=
didn't compress properly, here is the whole shooting match:

http://www.sherwin-williams.com/home-builders/products/catalog/fast-drying-=
primer/?referringCategory=3Dexterior-paint-coatings/primers/&N=3D586551394

Don't be shy about going to SW. A couple of things about them for your par=
ticular project. First, you can probably buy just a quart of their great a=
lkyd paint for about $25. A little goes a long way, and when I brush/roll, =
I thin about 10%. Don't buy the stuff in the blue quart can that is about =
$6 - $8 cheaper. It sucks. Second, unlike most paint stores (certainly th=
e big box guys) SW will tint your primer. Gotta like that.

Better still, for the next few days our local SW has all their paint produc=
ts 30% off, which is why I am going to see my guy tomorrow to get some of t=
hat very alkyd paint.

I do hope all that helps, not only you but for anyone else that might be in=
terested.

Good look DO, and let us know how it turns out!

Robert

On Tue, 2 Jun 2015 16:03:29 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>dadiOH wrote:
>
>Here's a job that I did guide coat on (URL at the bottom of this post).
>When this car came to me there was not a straight or a flat piece of sheet
>metal on the car. Beyond that - a great deal of the sheet metal did not
>even exist, and I had to fab in large amounts of it. The entire tail area
>above, below and across the tail light areas were rotted right out and what
>you see is my new sheet metal. Both sides, ahead of the rear wheel wells -
>and up to the doors, is all new metal. The front fenders were curled right
>under the car, the tops of both front fenders were crushed right in (nothing
>left of the headlight curves), the roof had been used as a trampoline, and
>in general - this was a candidate for the junk yard. This one took me 5
>months to do - your job will assuredly be less time, but the principles are
>the same.
>
>I had to do so much work that I had no alternative but to guide coat this
>car. My fingers are really good but don't believe what people tell you -
>there is only so much your fingers can tell you. Bullsh*t on the stories
>that your fingers can tell you what your eyes cannot see - that's just pure
>junk! The only people that say that are the people who have never really
>done the work.
>
>Because I had so much of this car to do, and because it was ultimately going
>to go to shows (it's won a ton of prizes, since I finished it beyond what
>these pictures show), I had to go the route, and flatten this car out as
>best as possible - that demands guide coating. You won't have to do this
>level of work, but it does show what you can achieve.
>
>http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/mike9369/media/DSCF3712_zpsvn7p2yn7.jpg.html?sort=3&o=15


Mike, Remarkable work to say the least! I'm an old body and paint man
from the 50's and early 60's but I can't place the make of that car.

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 3:03:36 PM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
.
> I had to do so much work that I had no alternative but to guide coat this=
=20
> car. My fingers are really good but don't believe what people tell you -=
=20
> there is only so much your fingers can tell you. Bullsh*t on the stories=
=20
> that your fingers can tell you what your eyes cannot see - that's just pu=
re=20
> junk! The only people that say that are the people who have never really=
=20
> done the work.
>=20
> Because I had so much of this car to do, and because it was ultimately go=
ing=20
> to go to shows (it's won a ton of prizes, since I finished it beyond what=
=20
> these pictures show), I had to go the route, and flatten this car out as=
=20
> best as possible - that demands guide coating. You won't have to do this=
=20
> level of work, but it does show what you can achieve.
>=20
> http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/mike9369/media/DSCF3712_zpsvn7p2yn7.jpg=
.html?sort=3D3&o=3D15

Crap, Mike! Where have you been hiding that one? =20

What a great showcase of your talents. I am not sure what I am more impres=
sed with, your finishing or your metal work. Metal working of that caliber=
is a lost art, and I don't know anyone that can do anything on that level.

And the finish... perfect. Like a frickin' mirror. Had to copy a couple o=
f those pics so I could blow them up and take a closer look. The driver si=
de shot (the one with the motor side front on the left and the hub caps on)=
is my favorite. That is some really nice work, and impressively so becaus=
e of all the prep you had to do just to get to the finishing stage.

Well done!

Robert

On 5/31/2015 3:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:

> Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint, sand, paint,
> etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I may
> switch to flat :(

Whenever I run across that problem, I simply call Robert (Nailshooter).

In short order, three pages of detailed "how to" mysteriously shows up
in the inbox.

Measure twice, cut once (+pound to fit)
Ask Robert once, paint once...

Works every time.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Tuesday, June 2, 2015 at 10:18:10 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>=20
> Thanks to all that replied.
>=20
> I haven't redone all but I tried sanding down the top rail til it was dea=
d=20
> smooth and then sprayed a coat (medium wet, Mike). It isn't dry but look=
s=20
> pretty good. Not new car body good but plenty good enough for my face=20
> frame. If it still looks good in a couple of days, I'll do the rest. If=
=20
> need be, I'll try the talc/shellac filler, Woodchucker; I have a couple o=
f=20
> pounds of talk left from when I was building a dingy and needed an easy s=
and=20
> thickener for epoxy.
>=20
> Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to making t=
he=20
> other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to spray a light coat =
of=20
> black on it before sanding...hard to see imperfections with white but wit=
h a=20
> color top coat, when the color is gone the white is good. Comments?

First, don't add another possible problem by making homemade filler/primer.=
You are already in deep, so why add some folkloric remedy to the mix? Tal=
c was used before the advent of microballons and is an artifact from when o=
il based paints were used that would encapsulate the talc particulates comp=
letely. A formula good enough for the 50s and 60s, but not so now. Today'=
s finishes are designed to work with the correct counterpart components tha=
t are made for specific jobs, not home remedies.=20

If you are determined to make some homemade filler, try this as answered by=
the excellent wood finisher Michael Dresdner: http://www.woodworking.com/=
ww/Article/Homemade-Pore-Filler-5928.aspx

What could you have done to the poplar that it is so beat up to the point o=
f needing so much attention after all your careful sanding to need a heavy =
duty surface filler? It seems that you did a lot of careful prep, so it is =
surprising that you have this much work left to do to get a good substrate.

I am thinking at this point you are rapidly making this harder than it need=
s to be. I will tell you exactly what I would do at this point if my wood =
was scratched, had holes in it, dented, and anything else that could be a p=
roblem. First, go to Home Depot and buy this:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Durham-s-Rock-Hard-DU-1-1-lb-Water-Putty-1-CAN/1=
00184116

Not exactly expensive. Mix it up thin, then float out your surfaces. Unle=
ss your holes are large and your dents deep (say 1/4 inch) then this stuff =
will not shrink, even when thinned. Think of floating out a piece of sheet=
rock when doing this. Apply with a wide putty knife, and work into your de=
fects. You can sand in an hour or so to a perfectly smooth finish. I do t=
his using Durham's a lot. It is cheap and compatible with all finishes. I=
t sands easily and at the price shown is nearly free. Easy to sand, quick =
to use and easy to apply. Save your talc for another project. Likewise, d=
on't use drywall mud, thinned wood glue and pumice, thinned wood glue with =
sawdust, etc. Every wood finisher I know uses Durham's to float out surfac=
es, fill holes (I use it to fill holes, dents, scratches, etc.) and there i=
s a reason why.=20

You are trying to make primer do something it was never intended to do. It=
is NOT a pore filler, it is NOT a filler of defects or holes, and it is NO=
T a heavy build finish that you apply multiple coats to fill defects and sa=
nd away the excess. The purpose of wood primer is to seal the wood, protec=
t the top coat of finish against unseen underlying fouling in the surface, =
and to provide a bondable substrate for the finish coat.

To be frank, I never, ever take all the steps you have put into this so far=
. If my surface is in bad shape, I sand to about 180gr. I surface fill by=
going over the entire surface to be painted using a thin coat of Durham's.=
I sand the Durham's smooth and look for defects in a rake light, fill/san=
d anything if needed and I am finished with surface prep. On goes primer, =
then two coats of finish. I never try to locate all the little problems an=
d damage. It simply takes too long and you never find all of them if your =
wood is really dinged up. If it is sufficient for me to fill more than a l=
ittle when painting, I just skim coat and sand the surface. With 100% cove=
rage of filler on your surface, you have a 100% chance of success of fillin=
g your defects. It is a fast, time efficient way to deal with a poor surfa=
ce.

You can't get from here

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u563/RobertLWitte/CAM00141_zpsgdkcsgvn.=
jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u563/RobertLWitte/CAM00140_zpsjj3eyvqe.=
jpg

To here

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u563/RobertLWitte/P1020230_zpsdvtb7pv4.=
jpg

http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u563/RobertLWitte/P1020232_zps3rthzc3r.=
jpg

by trying to take shortcuts or reinvent the wheel. Get the right products,=
use them as designed, and go on your way.

If you will float out your surface you won't have to worry about rake light=
s, shadow lights, different colors of primer, and on an on. If you want to=
continue on that path, yes, you can apply two different colors of material=
and sand off one color. Then you can see the defects, fill them one at a =
time, sand them one at a time, clean, reprime, sand again, then apply your =
finish. Why? You can't think for a moment I did that to that kitchen.

I believe you are now over thinking this as you are tired of screwing with =
it. So... sand, fill, sand, prime, light sand, paint. I am at the point n=
ow where I spray my primer carefully enough that if I don't spot any other =
problems after priming, I don't even sand it.=20

Buy what you need and wrap this one up.

Robert

On 5/31/2015 4:21 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> I've been working on our master baths. So far, I have faux painted the
> walls, laid tile on the tub surround and the shower, laid floor tile
> (roughly 4000 tiles total). Now I am working on the vanities. There are
> two plus a floor to ceiling cabinet.
>
> The plan is...
> mahogany door drawer fronts
> mahogany veneer on outside end panels
> black paint on...
> face frames
> panel interiors and non-ends
>
> I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar, sanded
> well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I sprayed it
> yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.
>
> I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full well
> that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW difficult,
> especially black (other than flat black).
>
> Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint, sand, paint,
> etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I may
> switch to flat :(
>

Hope that you used DeWaxed shellac... (or zinsser sanding sealer).
As far as looks like Hell, not sure what went wrong as you description
doesn't tell us where it went wrong.

I also hope you left some shellac on, that you didn't sand through. If
you did, that would leave you with a very uneven finish.

And yes, gloss black shows every defect... so you have to be real sure
you have a good base..


--
Jeff

[email protected] wrote:
> On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 3:22:07 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>
>> I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar,
>> sanded
>> well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I sprayed it
>> yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.
>>
>> I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full
>> well
>> that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW
>> difficult,
>> especially black (other than flat black).
>>
>> Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint,
>> sand, paint,
>> etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I
>> may
>> switch to flat :(
>>
>> --
>>
>> dadiOH
>
> I hate to see that. With all the time and effort you have put here
> over the years to help those in a bind with their finishing efforts,
> it is frustrating to see hear of you having some serious problems.
> You certainly have the experience to know that no matter your
> experience level, no matter your techniques, sometimes no matter...
> things just don't work right.
>
> Wish I was there to help. At the least we could smoke a cigar and
> give the whole thing a good cussin'.

What, no beer??


> The only small detail I would suggest would be to strip the finish
> off rather than to sand and sand and sand. Even with sanding, if the
> surface has fouling, it might not be removed with sanding.

No, it isn't fouling, the problem is that the surface wasn't good enough.
As you know, no film is ever any better than the surface upon which it is
applied...any ding, unfilled grain, whatever will show. And it shows in
spades with semi-gloss black. With white, it would probably be acceptable.
Even with the black it only looks like hell if there is a reflection of a
light surce, either diffuse or specular.

Before the paint the surface looked fine. And with varnish or lacquer it
would look fine now. It is just really hard to see imperfections on raw
wood, almost as hard with a clear finish. Easier (sometimes) to feel them
rather than see them.


> I don't know that I could help in any way, but if you would post some
> details such as type of finish, application method, and all steps,
> maybe I could help.

OK. As I said, poplar. Sanded to120 on my drum sander. After joining,
sanded again with 120 and a 1/2 sheet Portar Cable sander. Then sanded
again with 150, then with a 1/4 sheet sander with 180.

Then brushed on clear, dewaxed shellac, 3 heavy coats, dried 2 days.

Briefly sanded shellac with 220 and a small sanding block so I could see -
more or less - high spots. After that. 320 wet or dry, same size hand
block. I tried to be careful but still cut through the shellac in a couple
of spots. Vacuumed and wiped down well with microfiber after all sanding,
BTW. ( knew the cut through spots would show, figured they were shallow
enough to disappear after a few coats and more sanding inbetween).

Next, 3 light coats of Rust Oleum 280721 American Accents Ultra Cover 2X
Spray Paint, Semi-Gloss Black. Let it dry 48+ hours, sprayed a couple more
coats. I don't have spray equipment so I live in rattle can land if I want
to spray and - for these 2 1/2" rails and stiles - the spray pattern from
the cans seems fine. The biggest problem with most rattle can paint is the
necessity of recoating within one hour or after (at least) 48. In the one
hour time frame, it hasn't dried enough to really see what it is like; after
48 means sitting on your thumb waiting. In fact, even 48 hours isn't enough
sometimes...if there is a thick spot a new coat will cause it to reticulate
almost immediately, don't know why but I'm guessing from an agressive
solvent.

What I really need is a high build primer/sealer that sands REALLY easily.
In my boat days, I used one from International. Wonderful stuff...dried
fast, sandable in an hour and sanded VERY easily. I always brushed it on
heavily, lots of brush marks but that didn't matter because of the ease of
sanding. It had originally been formulated for use on Phillipine mahogany
to fill it in one coat. And it did. Most got sanded off leaving a very thin,
semi-transparent layer that was smooth as a baby's bottom. It was still
made maybe 15 years ago - at about $125/gallon - but when I looked on the
web maybe five years ago it had disappeared.

Then there is the heavy bodied sanding surfacer for autos, either in cans or
rattle cans. It is good stuff too but all I have had has been lacquer based
and I can't use it now (unless I strip the work) without it eating the
paint. Maybe for the face frames I have yet to make.

I've given some thought to buying one of the inexpensive $100+-, HVLP
sprayers for use when I get to the partitions that will be painted black;
however, that is about the only use I will ever have for it and I may just
use a roller since they will be pretty much hidden.

Any thoughts you have will be appreciated, especially about a high build
primer/sealer/surfacer that sands REALLY easily. Preferably, one that can
be tinted to dark grey.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On 6/1/2015 1:19 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Sunday, May 31, 2015 at 3:22:07 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
>>
>>> I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar,
>>> sanded
>>> well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I sprayed it
>>> yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.
>>>
>>> I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full
>>> well
>>> that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW
>>> difficult,
>>> especially black (other than flat black).
>>>
>>> Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint,
>>> sand, paint,
>>> etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face frames). I
>>> may
>>> switch to flat :(
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> dadiOH
>>
>> I hate to see that. With all the time and effort you have put here
>> over the years to help those in a bind with their finishing efforts,
>> it is frustrating to see hear of you having some serious problems.
>> You certainly have the experience to know that no matter your
>> experience level, no matter your techniques, sometimes no matter...
>> things just don't work right.
>>
>> Wish I was there to help. At the least we could smoke a cigar and
>> give the whole thing a good cussin'.
>
> What, no beer??
>
>
>> The only small detail I would suggest would be to strip the finish
>> off rather than to sand and sand and sand. Even with sanding, if the
>> surface has fouling, it might not be removed with sanding.
>
> No, it isn't fouling, the problem is that the surface wasn't good enough.
> As you know, no film is ever any better than the surface upon which it is
> applied...any ding, unfilled grain, whatever will show. And it shows in
> spades with semi-gloss black. With white, it would probably be acceptable.
> Even with the black it only looks like hell if there is a reflection of a
> light surce, either diffuse or specular.
>
> Before the paint the surface looked fine. And with varnish or lacquer it
> would look fine now. It is just really hard to see imperfections on raw
> wood, almost as hard with a clear finish. Easier (sometimes) to feel them
> rather than see them.
>
>
>> I don't know that I could help in any way, but if you would post some
>> details such as type of finish, application method, and all steps,
>> maybe I could help.
>
> OK. As I said, poplar. Sanded to120 on my drum sander. After joining,
> sanded again with 120 and a 1/2 sheet Portar Cable sander. Then sanded
> again with 150, then with a 1/4 sheet sander with 180.
>
> Then brushed on clear, dewaxed shellac, 3 heavy coats, dried 2 days.
>
> Briefly sanded shellac with 220 and a small sanding block so I could see -
> more or less - high spots. After that. 320 wet or dry, same size hand
> block. I tried to be careful but still cut through the shellac in a couple
> of spots. Vacuumed and wiped down well with microfiber after all sanding,
> BTW. ( knew the cut through spots would show, figured they were shallow
> enough to disappear after a few coats and more sanding inbetween).
>
> Next, 3 light coats of Rust Oleum 280721 American Accents Ultra Cover 2X
> Spray Paint, Semi-Gloss Black. Let it dry 48+ hours, sprayed a couple more
> coats. I don't have spray equipment so I live in rattle can land if I want
> to spray and - for these 2 1/2" rails and stiles - the spray pattern from
> the cans seems fine. The biggest problem with most rattle can paint is the
> necessity of recoating within one hour or after (at least) 48. In the one
> hour time frame, it hasn't dried enough to really see what it is like; after
> 48 means sitting on your thumb waiting. In fact, even 48 hours isn't enough
> sometimes...if there is a thick spot a new coat will cause it to reticulate
> almost immediately, don't know why but I'm guessing from an agressive
> solvent.
>
> What I really need is a high build primer/sealer that sands REALLY easily.
> In my boat days, I used one from International. Wonderful stuff...dried
> fast, sandable in an hour and sanded VERY easily. I always brushed it on
> heavily, lots of brush marks but that didn't matter because of the ease of
> sanding. It had originally been formulated for use on Phillipine mahogany
> to fill it in one coat. And it did. Most got sanded off leaving a very thin,
> semi-transparent layer that was smooth as a baby's bottom. It was still
> made maybe 15 years ago - at about $125/gallon - but when I looked on the
> web maybe five years ago it had disappeared.
>
> Then there is the heavy bodied sanding surfacer for autos, either in cans or
> rattle cans. It is good stuff too but all I have had has been lacquer based
> and I can't use it now (unless I strip the work) without it eating the
> paint. Maybe for the face frames I have yet to make.
>
> I've given some thought to buying one of the inexpensive $100+-, HVLP
> sprayers for use when I get to the partitions that will be painted black;
> however, that is about the only use I will ever have for it and I may just
> use a roller since they will be pretty much hidden.
>
> Any thoughts you have will be appreciated, especially about a high build
> primer/sealer/surfacer that sands REALLY easily. Preferably, one that can
> be tinted to dark grey.
>
Can't remember the exact name of a primer I used about 5 years ago but
it came from Sherwin Williams and was a high fill and guaranteed to
stick to almost anything. Was doing kitchen cabinets and it worked very
well even on the "fake" woodgrain ends. Did not flow really well and
left ridges but they sanded down to a very flat surface without having
to drink too many beers. Would suggest stopping in at a local SW dealer
and see what they have to offer.

dadiOH wrote:

>
> Next, 3 light coats of Rust Oleum 280721 American Accents Ultra Cover
> 2X Spray Paint, Semi-Gloss Black. Let it dry 48+ hours, sprayed a
> couple more coats. I don't have spray equipment so I live in rattle
> can land if I want to spray and - for these 2 1/2" rails and stiles
> - the spray pattern from the cans seems fine. The biggest problem
> with most rattle can paint is the necessity of recoating within one
> hour or after (at least) 48. In the one hour time frame, it hasn't
> dried enough to really see what it is like; after 48 means sitting on
> your thumb waiting. In fact, even 48 hours isn't enough
> sometimes...if there is a thick spot a new coat will cause it to
> reticulate almost immediately, don't know why but I'm guessing from
> an agressive solvent.

I'll jump in here (late, but that's because I just got home from a whirlwind
trip to Philly to welcome grandchild number 4 into the family...,) but I'm
not a believer in light coats unless you are forced into "dusting" in order
to get around other adhesion problems. I'm a believer in a good medium wet
coat. All the way. You'll get better fill, more even flow-out, and in
general a better finish. Light coats tend to create dry overspray and other
issues that you just have to deal with later.

With rattle cans - you're right. Thick spots will react due to solvent in
the new coat, and an un-cured previous coat. Nice even medium wet coats all
the way. After that - you're at the mercy of the paint. That's the hard
part - you really do have to wait it out to see and/or repair things.
C'mon - you know that...


> What I really need is a high build primer/sealer that sands REALLY
> easily.

Yes and no... I don't use much high build anymore. I just got tired of
high build primers die-ing back on me and shrinking 2 months after I shot
them, and every damned imperfection showing through as if I'd never even
fixed it. Screw the high build primer route. I don't shoot anything more
than a medium build now and I work hard to just shoot sealer coats. Nothing
worse than sending out a great paint job that comes back in 3 months with
sanding scratches showing up in the finish - that weren't there at delivery!
Read my lips - screw high build.

As for one that sands easily - any urethane primer will sand easy as long as
it's sandable. Just resist the temptation to fix issues with primer.
That's not really the purpose of primer.


>
> I've given some thought to buying one of the inexpensive $100+-, HVLP
> sprayers for use when I get to the partitions that will be painted
> black; however, that is about the only use I will ever have for it
> and I may just use a roller since they will be pretty much hidden.

I wouldn't. For what you have described, you don't need the unit. I'd
knock it back down to dead flat - whatever that takes. If it takes all the
paint off, so be it. If it only takes the high spots off - so be it. Just
get it down the the flatness you're happy with, using a good block. Clean,
etc. That's all to simply get you back to where you had hoped you had
started from.

Give it all a good primer coat - medium wet. Follow the directions or your
instincts as that relates to re-coat times, etc. Build with sealer coats
(preferably), or at worst, medium fill coats. Try to get your primer on as
smooth as you work to get your finish coats on. Many people believe in dry
primer coats - do not do that. Shoot it like it's paint. Rattle cans can
work just fine for this.

Knock your primer back after a day or so, clean and go at it with your
black. As you have already stated - make sure your primer knocks back as
smooth as you want to see your finish be in the end.

I will say that it is easier to fix problem spots with a good gun than it is
with a rattle can, but you seem to understand a fair amount about painting,
and for this project it seems to me you can get what you want out of a
rattle can. If not - take the short trip to Syracuse and I'll work on it
with ya.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

dadiOH wrote:

Thanks to all that replied.

I haven't redone all but I tried sanding down the top rail til it was dead
smooth and then sprayed a coat (medium wet, Mike). It isn't dry but looks
pretty good. Not new car body good but plenty good enough for my face
frame. If it still looks good in a couple of days, I'll do the rest. If
need be, I'll try the talc/shellac filler, Woodchucker; I have a couple of
pounds of talk left from when I was building a dingy and needed an easy sand
thickener for epoxy.

Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to making the
other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to spray a light coat of
black on it before sanding...hard to see imperfections with white but with a
color top coat, when the color is gone the white is good. Comments?

Again, thanks to everybody, lots of good info. With luck, this will be my
last foray into the land of paint. I'll be glad to get back to lacquer :)

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:

>
> Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
> making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
> spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
> imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color is
> gone the white is good. Comments?

That's called a guide coat is it's what we do when we are producing show
quality finishes. You are right - they will show every little imperfection
and you sand/fill until there are no low spots left - indicated by the light
spray coat still showing. That may be way too much perfection for your job,
but that's how to get a dead flat finish.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>
>>
>> Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
>> making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
>> spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
>> imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color is
>> gone the white is good. Comments?
>
> That's called a guide coat is it's what we do when we are producing
> show quality finishes. You are right - they will show every little
> imperfection and you sand/fill until there are no low spots left -
> indicated by the light spray coat still showing. That may be way too
> much perfection for your job, but that's how to get a dead flat
> finish.

Sorry - should not have hit send before saying that when spraying a guide
coat - do so very lightly - extremely light! Don't try to get a color
fill - not at all. Just dust on the barest of bare dustings. You're not
looking to fill or color, you're just looking for an indicator of where you
highs and lows are. If you think it's a light dusting, you can probably go
lighter. Hold way back, spray faster than normal, and just barely get a
dusting on there.

For your job - I would not go to the extent of a guide coat. There are too
many other imperfections in wood to go to that length. But - that's how you
do it. If the rest of your project is not that perfect then it's really not
worth the effort.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

>> dadiOH wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
>>> making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
>>> spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
>>> imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color
>>> is gone the white is good. Comments?
>>

Sorry that I keep adding thoughts here, but I'm a bit side tracked today, so
some of these ideas come to me later than I wish they had...

As for guide coating the primer - as I said, it's a proven and accepted
technique, but for something like your project, an alternative approach
which would be equally efficient, and a lot less work, would be to prime,
knock it down as you think is the best you can get, and then wipe with a
damp rag, and look down the long lines of the work. The primer will be
shiney while wet, and you'll see lows and highs. That will guide you with
respect to how much more sanding to do. Of course - don't try this approach
with dry primer...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
>>> making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
>>> spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
>>> imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color
>>> is gone the white is good. Comments?
>>
>> That's called a guide coat is it's what we do when we are producing
>> show quality finishes. You are right - they will show every little
>> imperfection and you sand/fill until there are no low spots left -
>> indicated by the light spray coat still showing. That may be way too
>> much perfection for your job, but that's how to get a dead flat
>> finish.
>
> Sorry - should not have hit send before saying that when spraying a
> guide coat - do so very lightly - extremely light! Don't try to get
> a color fill - not at all. Just dust on the barest of bare dustings.
> You're
> not looking to fill or color, you're just looking for an indicator of
> where you highs and lows are. If you think it's a light dusting, you
> can probably go lighter. Hold way back, spray faster than normal,
> and just barely get a dusting on there.
>
> For your job - I would not go to the extent of a guide coat. There
> are too many other imperfections in wood to go to that length. But -
> that's how you do it. If the rest of your project is not that
> perfect then it's really not worth the effort.

But Mike, ALL my projects are perfect. At least as perfect as I can get
them. At least the parts that show :)

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

dadiOH wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> dadiOH wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Robert, I'm going to try the SW fast drying primer when I get to
>>>> making the other face frames. I'm thinkig it might be useful to
>>>> spray a light coat of black on it before sanding...hard to see
>>>> imperfections with white but with a color top coat, when the color
>>>> is gone the white is good. Comments?
>>>
>>> That's called a guide coat is it's what we do when we are producing
>>> show quality finishes. You are right - they will show every little
>>> imperfection and you sand/fill until there are no low spots left -
>>> indicated by the light spray coat still showing. That may be way
>>> too much perfection for your job, but that's how to get a dead flat
>>> finish.
>>
>> Sorry - should not have hit send before saying that when spraying a
>> guide coat - do so very lightly - extremely light! Don't try to get
>> a color fill - not at all. Just dust on the barest of bare dustings.
>> You're
>> not looking to fill or color, you're just looking for an indicator of
>> where you highs and lows are. If you think it's a light dusting, you
>> can probably go lighter. Hold way back, spray faster than normal,
>> and just barely get a dusting on there.
>>
>> For your job - I would not go to the extent of a guide coat. There
>> are too many other imperfections in wood to go to that length. But -
>> that's how you do it. If the rest of your project is not that
>> perfect then it's really not worth the effort.
>
> But Mike, ALL my projects are perfect. At least as perfect as I can
> get them. At least the parts that show :)

But... there is the notion of "perfect enough"...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

dadiOH wrote:

Here's a job that I did guide coat on (URL at the bottom of this post).
When this car came to me there was not a straight or a flat piece of sheet
metal on the car. Beyond that - a great deal of the sheet metal did not
even exist, and I had to fab in large amounts of it. The entire tail area
above, below and across the tail light areas were rotted right out and what
you see is my new sheet metal. Both sides, ahead of the rear wheel wells -
and up to the doors, is all new metal. The front fenders were curled right
under the car, the tops of both front fenders were crushed right in (nothing
left of the headlight curves), the roof had been used as a trampoline, and
in general - this was a candidate for the junk yard. This one took me 5
months to do - your job will assuredly be less time, but the principles are
the same.

I had to do so much work that I had no alternative but to guide coat this
car. My fingers are really good but don't believe what people tell you -
there is only so much your fingers can tell you. Bullsh*t on the stories
that your fingers can tell you what your eyes cannot see - that's just pure
junk! The only people that say that are the people who have never really
done the work.

Because I had so much of this car to do, and because it was ultimately going
to go to shows (it's won a ton of prizes, since I finished it beyond what
these pictures show), I had to go the route, and flatten this car out as
best as possible - that demands guide coating. You won't have to do this
level of work, but it does show what you can achieve.

http://s1259.photobucket.com/user/mike9369/media/DSCF3712_zpsvn7p2yn7.jpg.html?sort=3&o=15


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Gray_Wolf wrote:

>
> Mike, Remarkable work to say the least! I'm an old body and paint man
> from the 50's and early 60's but I can't place the make of that car.

Thank you. That's a 1951 Dodge Wayfarer. The owner wanted all the chrome
removed, and I raised a point on the nose of the hood at his request as
well. He did put the bulldog back on the hood, but it was out getting
re-chromed at the time of the pictures. Other parts have been replaced as
well - headlight bezels, tail light bezels, etc. All in chrome. Looks much
better with the chrome trim.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

[email protected] wrote:
> ....
> Buy what you need and wrap this one up. Robert

Really nice work! Thank you for the lesson(s)!

Bill

dadiOH wrote:
> I've been working on our master baths. So far, I have faux painted
> the walls, laid tile on the tub surround and the shower, laid floor
> tile (roughly 4000 tiles total). Now I am working on the vanities. There
> are two plus a floor to ceiling cabinet.
>
> The plan is...
> mahogany door drawer fronts
> mahogany veneer on outside end panels
> black paint on...
> face frames
> panel interiors and non-ends
>
> I've been working on the face frame for the tall cabinet. Poplar,
> sanded well; several coats of shellac sanded well for sealer. I
> sprayed it yesterday with black semi-gloss. Looks like hell.
>
> I've been doing stuff like this for close to 60 years and know full
> well that a flawless paint job is very difficult; I had forgotten HOW
> difficult, especially black (other than flat black).
>
> Oh, I'll get it fixed...sand with 400 or 600 wet or dry, paint, sand,
> paint, etc. but never EVER again (except for the other two face
> frames). I may switch to flat :(

It's fixed, see new thread "never again but moving on"

On 6/1/2015 2:19 PM, dadiOH wrote:
> Before the paint the surface looked fine. And with varnish or lacquer it
> would look fine now. It is just really hard to see imperfections on raw
> wood, almost as hard with a clear finish. Easier (sometimes) to feel them
> rather than see them.
>

So that is really true. It is easier to feel them then it is to see
them. I used to do model airplanes (stunt planes ) we would get points
on finish. I wound up in the front row. Because a master builder
mentored me and told me your hands will pick up things your eyes will
miss. If your hand feels it, it's a problem.



I think rattle cans are good for some things, utility grade stuff. But I
would not consider it for semi or gloss black. To me that's either out
of a spray gun, or from a brush. With a brush thinner retarder work to
thin and prevent too fast flash time, that way it will flow out and lose
the brush marks.

You also can make your own sanding sealer. You can mix talcum powder
into a varnish or probably shellac. Sand it out, do it again, sand it
out, when done top coat the shellac or varnish. to seal the powder in.
The powder makes a nice sanding sealer.

Give it a try on a scrap first. you can mix different weights of filler.

--
Jeff