Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
"stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
all the joints. A couple of questions:
a) what is general guideline to placement of pegs?
b) for this dimension of lumber, how big should the pegs be?
c) anything gained by using galvanized fasterns instead? If so, what
are suggestions as to suppliers who can provide am Asian type look?
Chris
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> My take is that you spent 4 times the money I did and still don't have
> an adjustable gate height, Leon. Plus you added 3x more weight to the
> gate than I did with the sexy cable. ;)
You can analize it on paper or as I have discovered in real life, the extra
expense is recouped in time saved in building the gate and so far, not
having to replace the gate which I have to do time and again in the past.
The height of the gate and the width of the gate is totally up to you up to
a point, this is all determined by the length of the 2x4's you use. Width
limits are normally well handled with the typical wide yard gate. I have
gone up to 4' wide. The added weight is about 4~5#'s IIRC.
I have used cables and turn buckles however the gate I have used this on, my
dad's atrium gate that was actually built in 1974, is now distorted, not
flat. A 36 year old cedar gate with 8" pickets....
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:26:47 -0400, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Robertson work just fine, are cheaper, available in many styles, and hardly
>ever slip as well as sticking on the end of the bit almost vertically.
So to "Square Drive", but perhaps you have to know what you're doing.
>It's just the cheap square head (not German) and square drive crap
>knock-offs that the rest of the world makes with random sizes that are the
>problem.
Funny. I haven't had a problem with square drive screws in *years*. At one
time, perhaps, but certainly not with any screws I've bought in the last 15
years.
Please don't top-post.
<snipped leftovers from a top-poster>
On Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:01:58 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote the following:
>
>"cc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:5b91cc4c-d76e-4587-bf6a-65e4094c8c2d@x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>> Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
>> cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
>> "stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
>> laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
>> glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
>>
>> Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
>> all the joints. A couple of questions:
>> a) what is general guideline to placement of pegs?
>> b) for this dimension of lumber, how big should the pegs be?
>> c) anything gained by using galvanized fasterns instead? If so, what
>> are suggestions as to suppliers who can provide am Asian type look?
>>
>> Chris
>
>
>I have built dozens of gates and have found that they typically don't hold
>up regardless of how you build them. Wood shrinks and cedar does
>especially. When it shrinks the gate loosens and sags.
>
>Solution,, A gate kit that has steel right angle brackets that hold every
>thing square no matter how much the wood shrinks.
>Having built 8~10 gates with this kit I have yet to have a gate sag.
>
>http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10584
My take is that you spent 4 times the money I did and still don't have
an adjustable gate height, Leon. Plus you added 3x more weight to the
gate than I did with the sexy cable. ;)
--
Peace of mind is that mental condition in which you have accepted the worst.
-- Lin Yutang
"cc" wrote:
> Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
> cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
> "stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
> laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
> glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
>
> Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
> all the joints. A couple of questions:
> a) what is general guideline to placement of pegs?
> b) for this dimension of lumber, how big should the pegs be?
> c) anything gained by using galvanized fasterns instead? If so, what
> are suggestions as to suppliers who can provide am Asian type look?
---------------------------------------
SFWIW, I like 1/2"-5/8" Dia pegs, maybe even 3/4", two (2
pegs)/connection minimum.
I'd use S/S not galvanized, if desired, but pegs should sufice.
Have fun.
Lew
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2q34H8MeZo
>
That guy is fast! He built a gate in a minute, 36 seconds.
Looks good. It would be difficult to brace a lighter weight gate like this.
On Jun 16, 5:29=A0pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 21:14:07 -0700 (PDT), cc <[email protected]>
> wrote the following:
>
> >Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
> >cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
> >"stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
> >laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
> >glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
>
> >Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
> >all the joints. A couple of questions:
> >a) what is general guideline to placement of pegs?
> >b) for this dimension of lumber, how big should the pegs be?
> >c) anything gained by using galvanized fasterns instead? If so, what
> >are suggestions as to suppliers who can provide am Asian type look?
>
> Here ya go: =A0http://fwd4.me/T8h
>
> Since cedar isn't strong enough to handle pegs for a LARGE gate,
> you'll have to use an anti-sag kit. =A0I swear by 'em. =A0If you don't
> like zinc, smear some RBS on 'em.
>
> --
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Impeach 'em ALL!
> =A0 ----------------------------------------------------
RBS?
Jay Pique wrote:
> On Jun 16, 2:37 pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> ALL lap joints, being one of the weakest joints, will benefit from
>> mechanical fasteners of some type ... pins, nails, etc.
>
> I didn't know that. I actually thought they got a good test review in
> some ww'ing mag lately. Probably highly dependent on how well the
> gluing surfaces mate and what adhesive you use.
>
> JP
Here are some tests; unfortunately, they don't include lap joints. My
opinion is that lap joints are very strong against pulling forces, less so
against shearing ones (but still not terrible).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhLfb7m9Fug
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On Jun 16, 2:37=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> ALL lap joints, being one of the weakest joints, will benefit from
> mechanical fasteners of some type ... pins, nails, etc.
I didn't know that. I actually thought they got a good test review in
some ww'ing mag lately. Probably highly dependent on how well the
gluing surfaces mate and what adhesive you use.
JP
. I had a source for those. I'll do
> a goggle and see if I can post a link.
>
Something like this http://www.vandykes.com/product/203930/square-head-screws
Or this
http://www.blacksmithsdepot.com/Templates/cart_templates/cart-detail.php?theLocation=/Resources/Products/hardware/lag_bolt_black
But I would prefer a through bolt with a square nut to reallyhold the
laps together. If you used lags, then maybe two on each side of the
lap at opposing conners so you had 4 total.
Nice!
The shear tests were done very unscientifically. It was more like a random
torsion test. Nothing was constant. The wood materials were not constant,
the joint styles were not constant and the distance from the joint were not
constant. Poorly done, for any comparison. The idea was good though and you
get the idea.
The pulling tests were quite good, with most untested quantities fairly
constant on those ones.
Thanx
"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:7yoSn.42824$nz1.17212@hurricane...
Here are some tests; unfortunately, they don't include lap joints. My
opinion is that lap joints are very strong against pulling forces, less so
against shearing ones (but still not terrible).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhLfb7m9Fug
--
dadiOH
"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To clarify, when the US released "square head screws" the standards were
> not
> followed and the heads broke off, or did not fit properly in the square
> head
> drivers, and stripped from slipping off the drive bit.
>
> Robertson, was a defined and patented standard using colour coded sizes.
> These problems did not exist until "square drive" and "square head"
> arrived
> on the scene and violated the standards set up, accepted and used for
> years.
>
> Stick with Phillips, slotted or follow the standards already followed
> elsewhere. Quality has been compromised.
I am still confused? What point are you trying to make?
"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Robertson" head screws typically fit the bits properly.
??
Yeah, it seems the bits have gotten really bad, the screws have also gotten
worse and are getting worse as time goes on.
The square head people seemd to have figured out the problem of making the
socket too deep in a head screw. Many of the heads used to break off with
harder torque applications due to lack of metal bridging the head to the
screw shaft after the head socket was formed. I haven't noticed that in the
last few years. (made in Malaysia?? junk)
The ceramic paints are still a problem with the US junk decking screws sold
in HD. I try to avoid them but sometimes the others are just not available
within a 50km so I buy them and grumble about the high prices they charge.
On a previous discussion about heads breaking off different types of decking
screws...
My son added a pergola to his 3 years old cedar deck and complained how
about 1/5 of the ceramic coated deck screws broke off inside the 5/4 decking
(shaft). I have never experienced this that I can remeber. When I got there
to help he was using an electric (plug in) right angle grill and it was hard
to control the torque on it. The battery operated drills seem to have your
arm to absorb that last second toque jerk and it must save the screws from
over torquing.
This makes me wonder about the impact screwdrivers people keep mentioning.
Never having tried one, doesn't that apply small torque jerks to strain the
screws even further?
It sounds easier on the body but harder on the screws.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Funny. I haven't had a problem with square drive screws in *years*. At one
time, perhaps, but certainly not with any screws I've bought in the last 15
years.
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 16:26:47 -0400, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Robertson work just fine, are cheaper, available in many styles, and hardly
>ever slip as well as sticking on the end of the bit almost vertically.
So to "Square Drive", but perhaps you have to know what you're doing.
>It's just the cheap square head (not German) and square drive crap
>knock-offs that the rest of the world makes with random sizes that are the
>problem.
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2q34H8MeZo
>>
> That guy is fast! He built a gate in a minute, 36 seconds.
>
> Looks good. It would be difficult to brace a lighter weight gate like
> this.
>
>
>
It really is a decent kit. Like everything else the quality may have
slipped over the past 10 or so years but the kit compares to most of that
type gate hardware anyway.
Two of angle brackets, the hinged ones, require the 2x4 to be a specific
width. Because most people building gates use PT lumber the width of the
wood can vary and may be too wide to fit the bracket. You simply trim the
board to fit.
The point is: Get Robertson screws that fit their drivers properly, not the
knock off "square head" or "square drive" copies.
After you have stripped 10-15% of them, wrecked your material underneath
from slipping and cannot get the stripped screws out anymore from stripping
or breaking the heads off, you will wish you had either bought properly
designed ones or used nails.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I am still confused? What point are you trying to make?
"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To clarify, when the US released "square head screws" the standards were
> not
> followed and the heads broke off, or did not fit properly in the square
> head
> drivers, and stripped from slipping off the drive bit.
>
> Robertson, was a defined and patented standard using colour coded sizes.
> These problems did not exist until "square drive" and "square head"
> arrived
> on the scene and violated the standards set up, accepted and used for
> years.
>
> Stick with Phillips, slotted or follow the standards already followed
> elsewhere. Quality has been compromised.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I have built dozens of gates and have found that they typically don't hold
> up regardless of how you build them. Wood shrinks and cedar does
> especially. When it shrinks the gate loosens and sags.
>
> Solution,, A gate kit that has steel right angle brackets that hold every
> thing square no matter how much the wood shrinks.
> Having built 8~10 gates with this kit I have yet to have a gate sag.
>
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10584
>
BTY, DO NOT use the screws that come with this kit, use your own quality
square drive screws.
cc <[email protected]> wrote in news:5b91cc4c-d76e-4587-bf6a-
[email protected]:
> Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
> cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
> "stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
> laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
> glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
A pegged *diagonal* will do more to prevent sagging than any combination of
fasteners on a purely right-angle design. You might want to add a diagonal
turnbuckle brace right now... you'll need it soon enough.
Scott
"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> This makes me wonder about the impact screwdrivers people keep mentioning.
> Never having tried one, doesn't that apply small torque jerks to strain
> the
> screws even further?
> It sounds easier on the body but harder on the screws.
The fact that the impact is a split second amount of force and then none at
all and repeated over and over affords the screw the ability to actually
absorbe the force and not go beyond its torque to yield limits, plus it
helps to prevent caming out.
"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The point is: Get Robertson screws that fit their drivers properly, not
> the
> knock off "square head" or "square drive" copies.
Actually I have been using a combination of both for the last 25 or so
years, I have had no problems with either.
>
> After you have stripped 10-15% of them, wrecked your material underneath
> from slipping and cannot get the stripped screws out anymore from
> stripping
> or breaking the heads off, you will wish you had either bought properly
> designed ones or used nails.
Yeah out of my inventory of probably 2K assorted square head screws I have
not witnessed a problem with either.
Going back to my original comment of using "qaulity" square drive screws I
was refering more to not using the Phillips head "soft metal" screws that
come with the kit.
> Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
> all the joints. A couple of questions:
> Chris
Sounds like a cool project.
I think pegging could help with longevity and you should put two pegs
diagonaly on each lap joint. Assuming the lap area is square just
think of it as divide it into three sections iwith like a tic tac toe
hatch and place the pegs at two opposing corners where the lines
cross. One peg would suffice at the mid.
However, since the crucial joints are lap joints and pegs are really
best for M&T, the laps have a possibilty of peeling apart so I would
use through fasteners in the same pattern. For a good asian look, find
square head black hand beaten bolts. I had a source for those. I'll do
a goggle and see if I can post a link.
Also, I woild oil the gate with Penofin clear or similar to keep that
beautiful Cedar look. Give it a week or two to start to sunburn and
red up a bit then oil it before it starts to fade.
On 16 June, 19:37, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> FWIW, your choice of a half lap joint for a gate will more than likely
> prove unsatisfactory over time.
They can be OK, so long as you do something with the fasteners. If
you attach a big steel plate to one side, spanning both parts of the
joint, you can convert the wooden half-lap into something that's more
like a bridle joint. This will work a lot better and more long-lasting
than the simple half-lap.
I'd attach this with bolts, probably coach bolts (round pan head with
a square beneath) from the timber side and nutted down onto the steel
plate.
I wouldn't use wooden pegs unless it's M&T or bridle joints. Wooden
pegs are good in shear, but not good for bending, as their holes will
work bell-mouthed. So any load on them needs to be a symmetrical pure-
shear load, not an asymmetrical load from a half-lap that tends to
tilt them. Bolts don't enjoy this much either, but at least bolts can
be tightened for some axial compression, pegs can't.
If you are using pegs, buy or make a dowel plate. If it's big pegs in
oak, make this a good dowel plate with a range of hole sizes, and star-
shaped holes to help bring the pegs down to size. Although you can
rough whittle, a plate is faster and more accurate for final sizing.
Most of the time I'd recommend bridle joints (two sides, but no top)
for a simple gate rather than M&T. They're a lot easier to cut, as
you can saw them from the end without needing to work down a mortice,
and they're nearly as good as the M&T.
Robertson work just fine, are cheaper, available in many styles, and hardly
ever slip as well as sticking on the end of the bit almost vertically.
It's just the cheap square head (not German) and square drive crap
knock-offs that the rest of the world makes with random sizes that are the
problem.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Use an impact driver and you won't have that problem. If you're still that
much of a klutz, use TORX/Star screws (I do for places where I'm planning on
removing/reusing them).
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:02:38 -0400, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The point is: Get Robertson screws that fit their drivers properly, not the
>knock off "square head" or "square drive" copies.
>
>After you have stripped 10-15% of them, wrecked your material underneath
>from slipping and cannot get the stripped screws out anymore from stripping
>or breaking the heads off, you will wish you had either bought properly
>designed ones or used nails.
cc wrote:
> Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
> cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
> "stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
> laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
> glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
>
> Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
> all the joints. A couple of questions:
> a) what is general guideline to placement of pegs?
> b) for this dimension of lumber, how big should the pegs be?
> c) anything gained by using galvanized fasterns instead? If so, what
> are suggestions as to suppliers who can provide am Asian type look?
Frankly, I don't think pegs would help prevent sagging. A diagonal, yes;
pegs, no. If the lumber, joints and glue were decent, the joints are going
to stay good. Just keep them painted.
However, if you just gotta do it, these are the choices...
1. Treenails ("trunnels"). These are best whittled from black locust but
can be made from whatever. They are really good for securing a plank to
another fixed piece of wood (one that doesn't move). Whittled because they
need to be irregular so the irregularities will deform the wood into which
they are being driven thus pulling them together.
2. Dowels. Those would hold the pieces laterally but if the joints are good
they aren't needed. With both dowels and treenails you are getting exposed
end grain, paint will always crack over them.
3. Screws. A couple of heavy - #12?, #14? - screws in the joints will hold
them laterally and together. Lag screws could look good, paint the heads a
contrasting color. Like black.
4. Rivets. Do the same as screws but look cool. I've riveted lots of stuff
together using brass rod. Copper or bronze is good too. One drills the
hole, counter sinks it on both sides slightly and shallowly then peens both
sides over to form heads. It takes some practice to cut the rod long
enough - but not too long - to make the head. The side opposite the one
being peened needs to be supported; a steel block with an oversized hole the
depth of the rod extending on that side can be clamped over it to keep the
rod from being driven out while you peen the opposite end. Hole needs to be
oversized because the rod will expand on that side too and you have to be
able to get the bucking block off.
For placement, stay away from the ends and edges by 3/4" or so and don't put
them "in line" which could encourage splitting. For example, on the center
rail, put one at the top left corner, other bottom right corner, both 3/4"
or more from any edge.
Size depends on what you use; wood needs to be bigger than steel. Just for
appearance, I agree with whoever said 1/2 - 5/8.
Galvanized - hot dipped galvanized - is better than plain steel. I have no
idea what you mean by "an Asian look".
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
On 6/15/2010 11:14 PM, cc wrote:
> Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
> cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
> "stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
> laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
> glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
>
> Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
> all the joints. A couple of questions:
> a) what is general guideline to placement of pegs?
> b) for this dimension of lumber, how big should the pegs be?
> c) anything gained by using galvanized fasterns instead? If so, what
> are suggestions as to suppliers who can provide am Asian type look?
FWIW, your choice of a half lap joint for a gate will more than likely
prove unsatisfactory over time.
ALL lap joints, being one of the weakest joints, will benefit from
mechanical fasteners of some type ... pins, nails, etc.
If it were my gate I would think seriously about a couple of carriage
bolts at each joint ... if you want to get creative you should be able
to find some wrought iron or decorative 'corner brackets' for opposing
sides of each joint that will kill two birds with one stone ... "pins",
in the form of bolts, through the joint; and some much needed extra
reinforcement against the inevitable racking forces inherent in gate
components.
YMMV ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Tue, 15 Jun 2010 21:14:07 -0700 (PDT), cc <[email protected]>
wrote the following:
>Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
>cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
>"stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
>laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
>glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
>
>Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
>all the joints. A couple of questions:
>a) what is general guideline to placement of pegs?
>b) for this dimension of lumber, how big should the pegs be?
>c) anything gained by using galvanized fasterns instead? If so, what
>are suggestions as to suppliers who can provide am Asian type look?
Here ya go: http://fwd4.me/T8h
Since cedar isn't strong enough to handle pegs for a LARGE gate,
you'll have to use an anti-sag kit. I swear by 'em. If you don't
like zinc, smear some RBS on 'em.
--
Impeach 'em ALL!
----------------------------------------------------
On 6/18/2010 10:01 AM, Leon wrote:
> "cc"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:5b91cc4c-d76e-4587-bf6a-65e4094c8c2d@x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>> Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
>> cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
>> "stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
>> laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
>> glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
>>
>> Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
>> all the joints. A couple of questions:
>> a) what is general guideline to placement of pegs?
>> b) for this dimension of lumber, how big should the pegs be?
>> c) anything gained by using galvanized fasterns instead? If so, what
>> are suggestions as to suppliers who can provide am Asian type look?
>>
>> Chris
>
>
> I have built dozens of gates and have found that they typically don't hold
> up regardless of how you build them. Wood shrinks and cedar does
> especially. When it shrinks the gate loosens and sags.
>
> Solution,, A gate kit that has steel right angle brackets that hold every
> thing square no matter how much the wood shrinks.
> Having built 8~10 gates with this kit I have yet to have a gate sag.
>
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10584
For the style of gate shown, a 2x4 diagonally across would do the same
job for a fraction of the price.
I have built a few gates and never had a problem with much sag. The weight
has to be hanging on the latch kit, most of the time and angular support
boards have to be centered on the hinges and the facing boards cannot be
"pulling" on the support as they age and shrink.
Of course this all depends on whether you want the crossbuck type look. With
spruce these brackets will help but in the end the horizontal pieces will
sag also without some complete width triangulation structure. Wood shrinks
mostly across the grain.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
It really is a decent kit. Like everything else the quality may have
slipped over the past 10 or so years but the kit compares to most of that
type gate hardware anyway.
Two of angle brackets, the hinged ones, require the 2x4 to be a specific
width. Because most people building gates use PT lumber the width of the
wood can vary and may be too wide to fit the bracket. You simply trim the
board to fit.
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2q34H8MeZo
>>
> That guy is fast! He built a gate in a minute, 36 seconds.
>
> Looks good. It would be difficult to brace a lighter weight gate like
> this.
>
>
>
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 13:02:38 -0400, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The point is: Get Robertson screws that fit their drivers properly, not the
>knock off "square head" or "square drive" copies.
>
>After you have stripped 10-15% of them, wrecked your material underneath
>from slipping and cannot get the stripped screws out anymore from stripping
>or breaking the heads off, you will wish you had either bought properly
>designed ones or used nails.
Use an impact driver and you won't have that problem. If you're still that
much of a klutz, use TORX/Star screws (I do for places where I'm planning on
removing/reusing them).
"cc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:5b91cc4c-d76e-4587-bf6a-65e4094c8c2d@x21g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> Used frame and panel approach to making a large outside gate using
> cedar. Has three "rails" (top/mid are 2x4 with bottom 2X6) and two
> "stiles" (left and right sides 2x6). Top and bottom joints are half-
> laps with "mid" cross piece using M&T. All glued with outside wood
> glue. (Yes, I know now I should have used M&T on all joints)
>
> Because I want to put off sagging as much as possible, I want to peg
> all the joints. A couple of questions:
> a) what is general guideline to placement of pegs?
> b) for this dimension of lumber, how big should the pegs be?
> c) anything gained by using galvanized fasterns instead? If so, what
> are suggestions as to suppliers who can provide am Asian type look?
>
> Chris
I have built dozens of gates and have found that they typically don't hold
up regardless of how you build them. Wood shrinks and cedar does
especially. When it shrinks the gate loosens and sags.
Solution,, A gate kit that has steel right angle brackets that hold every
thing square no matter how much the wood shrinks.
Having built 8~10 gates with this kit I have yet to have a gate sag.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10584
On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:28:58 -0400, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Yeah, it seems the bits have gotten really bad, the screws have also gotten
>worse and are getting worse as time goes on.
I don't know where you buy your crap, but I've found just the opposite. I've
had *no* trouble with screws (mostly from McFeeleys) or bits (DeWalt - Impact
Ready) for years. I did have some trouble with screws, ages ago, from the
BORG, and stainless steel from one of the (then) local tool stores.
>The square head people seemd to have figured out the problem of making the
>socket too deep in a head screw. Many of the heads used to break off with
>harder torque applications due to lack of metal bridging the head to the
>screw shaft after the head socket was formed. I haven't noticed that in the
>last few years. (made in Malaysia?? junk)
I've *never* busted the head off these sorts of screws. I always drill pilot
holes, though.
>The ceramic paints are still a problem with the US junk decking screws sold
>in HD. I try to avoid them but sometimes the others are just not available
>within a 50km so I buy them and grumble about the high prices they charge.
Like I said, I generally order from McFeeleys. I have 1K Spax screws sitting
beside me here, for the shop floor (which has been pushed out to the fall).
>On a previous discussion about heads breaking off different types of decking
>screws...
>My son added a pergola to his 3 years old cedar deck and complained how
>about 1/5 of the ceramic coated deck screws broke off inside the 5/4 decking
>(shaft). I have never experienced this that I can remeber. When I got there
>to help he was using an electric (plug in) right angle grill and it was hard
>to control the torque on it. The battery operated drills seem to have your
>arm to absorb that last second toque jerk and it must save the screws from
>over torquing.
Buy an impact driver. Sheesh! You'll never strip another head.
>This makes me wonder about the impact screwdrivers people keep mentioning.
>Never having tried one, doesn't that apply small torque jerks to strain the
>screws even further?
No. It drives screws like the wood is butter. The screws slow down as the
torque increases but it doesn't strip heads at all.
>It sounds easier on the body but harder on the screws.
Nope.
<cleaning up after a lazy top-poster, again>
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:
>On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:28:58 -0400, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
><cleaning up after a lazy top-poster, again>
He's not being lazy, he's being deliberately obtuse. Note that he
actually reformatted your post so that you appeared to have top posted
to his top post.
Frankly, I've started ignoring Josepi's posts, both because they are
top posted and his opinions (on electricity, on homeowners insurance
and on square drive screws) don't match general experience and are usually
delivered in a shrill manner.
scott
Further to my earlier post I forgot to say
all my gate experience is from time examining
them closely in the State Pen during my last stretch.
The advise is good. Government guaranteed!
oh so sorry for jumping from the kill filter to
LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL
____________________________________________________
"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
I have built a few gates and never had a problem with much sag. The weight
has to be hanging on the latch kit, most of the time and angular support
boards have to be centered on the hinges and the facing boards cannot be
"pulling" on the support as they age and shrink.
Of course this all depends on whether you want the crossbuck type look. With
spruce these brackets will help but in the end the horizontal pieces will
sag also without some complete width triangulation structure. Wood shrinks
mostly across the grain.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
It really is a decent kit. Like everything else the quality may have
slipped over the past 10 or so years but the kit compares to most of that
type gate hardware anyway.
Two of angle brackets, the hinged ones, require the 2x4 to be a specific
width. Because most people building gates use PT lumber the width of the
wood can vary and may be too wide to fit the bracket. You simply trim the
board to fit.
"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2q34H8MeZo
>>
> That guy is fast! He built a gate in a minute, 36 seconds.
>
> Looks good. It would be difficult to brace a lighter weight gate like
> this.
>
>
>
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 21:40:08 -0700 (PDT), cc <[email protected]>
wrote the following:
>On Jun 16, 5:29 pm, Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Since cedar isn't strong enough to handle pegs for a LARGE gate,
>> you'll have to use an anti-sag kit. I swear by 'em. If you don't
>> like zinc, smear some RBS on 'em.
>
>RBS?
Reddish Brown Shit, aka "stain" that some folks around here like to
put on perfectly good wood.
-------------------------------------------
Stain and Poly are their own punishment
To clarify, when the US released "square head screws" the standards were not
followed and the heads broke off, or did not fit properly in the square head
drivers, and stripped from slipping off the drive bit.
Robertson, was a defined and patented standard using colour coded sizes.
These problems did not exist until "square drive" and "square head" arrived
on the scene and violated the standards set up, accepted and used for years.
Stick with Phillips, slotted or follow the standards already followed
elsewhere. Quality has been compromised.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
??
"Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Robertson" head screws typically fit the bits properly.
"Robertson" head screws typically fit the bits properly.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
BTY, DO NOT use the screws that come with this kit, use your own quality
square drive screws.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I have built dozens of gates and have found that they typically don't hold
> up regardless of how you build them. Wood shrinks and cedar does
> especially. When it shrinks the gate loosens and sags.
>
> Solution,, A gate kit that has steel right angle brackets that hold every
> thing square no matter how much the wood shrinks.
> Having built 8~10 gates with this kit I have yet to have a gate sag.
>
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=10584
>
On 21 Jun 2010 15:11:20 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal) wrote
the following:
>"[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:
>>On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 18:28:58 -0400, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>><cleaning up after a lazy top-poster, again>
>
>He's not being lazy, he's being deliberately obtuse. Note that he
>actually reformatted your post so that you appeared to have top posted
>to his top post.
>
>Frankly, I've started ignoring Josepi's posts, both because they are
>top posted and his opinions (on electricity, on homeowners insurance
>and on square drive screws) don't match general experience and are usually
>delivered in a shrill manner.
The rest of us have simply plonked him. Not a problem.
--
Peace of mind is that mental condition in which you have accepted the worst.
-- Lin Yutang
On 6/20/2010 11:04 AM, Leon wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2q34H8MeZo
What's also notable in this video is that you see a garden gate's
structure done properly ... the top rail covers the top of the stiles,
protecting the stile's end grain from exposure to weather/moisture
incursion, and insuring a longer gate life.
Surprising how many DIY'ers, and DIY "how to" publications, miss that
simple bit of old time wisdom.
The devil is always in the details ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)