I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
ramps.
To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
screws.
My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
grip given by extra length is meaningless.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
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dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> krw wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>>> krw wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and
>>>> "winch"?) ...
>>> Hoists are for lifting, winches are for pulling.
>>
>> What's the difference? ...
>
> Winches for pulling don't have the safety locks for overhead lifts
> hoists do...
Some winches don't even have a brake on them, so when you turn it off the
line is allowed to go slack.
It might be like the distinction between a rabbet and a dado. At their
most basic, they're a groove cut in wood. They have distinct properties,
however, that make one more useful than the other in certain situations.
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:49:02 -0500, Ignoramus7553
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
>weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
>1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
>ramps.
>
>To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
>lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
>plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
>screws.
>
>My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
>wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
>grip given by extra length is meaningless.
Define "wood cart", please.. especially the material it's made of..
It seems to weigh 200 pounds?
Will the lag bolts be in a 2x4" a 4x4" or maybe 1/4" ply?
Why specifically 5/15" lags?
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
*snip*
>
> It's not at all an optimal design choice and it would seem essentially
> trivial to make the lags machine bolts, ideally w/ the plate also on
> the back side.
>
*snip*
One thing to consider is that with lag bolts you have to drive the entire
bolt in. At 4" long, that's a lot of driving to do. Conversely, with
machine bolts (such as carriage bolts) all you've got to do is drill a
through hole and attach the nut.
Just something to think about as you get to building. On my ice rink last
year I switched after the second lag bolt to carriage bolts and got the
thing assembled.
Puckdropper
--
If you're quiet, your teeth never touch your ankles.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
In article <[email protected]>,
Ignoramus6193 <[email protected]> wrote:
> I drilled pilot holes. So driving these screws took only a couple of
> minutes.
Quite so!
I had to read a few posts to realise you were talking about coach screws
but the new work bench I'm currently building (When I'm not being
distracted by other things) uses a few. They are 10mm by 80mm and you
drill a pilot hole just the same as for an ordinary screw, then just "wind
them in" with the speed brace from a socket set.
> You guys convinced me to not use it for winching it up the
> trailer ramps. Otherwise using it for general moving about, should not
> be a problem.
--
Stuart Winsor
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
Look here: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm
and specifically here:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch07.pdf for application
guidance regarding use of lag screws.
This (or any) design idea can't be meaningfully analyzed without at least a
drawing (clear sketch)("worth 1000 words") of the configuration and loading
directions envisioned. I suspect that each of your respondants has
visualized something different. Generally, I too tend to favor bolts with
nuts and washers. When all is said and done, the orientation and integrity
of the proposed weld in the ring could still prove to be the weak link.
David Merrill
"Ignoramus7553" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
> weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
> 1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
> ramps.
>
> To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
> lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
> plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
> screws.
>
> My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
> wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
> grip given by extra length is meaningless.
>
On 2008-09-21, Nova <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ignoramus6193 wrote:
>
>> On 2008-09-21, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>Define "wood cart", please.. especially the material it's made of..
>>
>>
>> three 2x12 6' long. Three crossmembers, at front, aft and rear,
>> 2x10s. The crossmembers are attached to lengthwise 2x12s by means of
>> wood glue and screws.
>>
>>
>
> It sounds like the glue joint would have to be end grain to long grain
> making it just about useless. What do you suppose the shear strength of
> the screws are for the cross member that the "lifting eye" will be
> attached to?
It is long grain to long grain, if I understand you correctly. One
board under another but perpendicular.
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
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posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/
EXCELLENT link! that one's going into the favorites.
jc
"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ac323131-1442-4f7e-9869-a4623b179f5e@l43g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 21, 1:49 am, Ignoramus7553 <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
> weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
> 1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
> ramps.
>
> To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
> lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
> plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
> screws.
>
> My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
> wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
> grip given by extra length is meaningless.
Here's a lag screw load calculator:
http://www.awc.org/calculators/connections/ccstyle.asp?
R
In article <ac323131-1442-4f7e-9869-
[email protected]>, [email protected]=20
says...
> On Sep 21, 1:49=A0am, Ignoramus7553 <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
> > weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
> > 1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
> > ramps.
> >
> > To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
> > lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
> > plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
> > screws.
> >
> > My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
> > wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
> > grip given by extra length is meaningless.
>=20
> Here's a lag screw load calculator:
> http://www.awc.org/calculators/connections/ccstyle.asp?
Thanks indeed! That's a great tool to have around. =20
I'm planning something akin to what the OP is doing. I have an=20
unfinished room above my garage with access only to the second floor=20
of the house (it's where they generally put the "bonus room"). My=20
plan is to use if as my shop (convert it to the bonus room if I=20
move).
I'm trying to think of a way to get tools and materials up there, so=20
was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and=20
"winch"?) with an access door down to the garage. I'd have to lift=20
a table saw (~600lbs.), hence the interest in this load calculator.
--=20
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> krw wrote:
> ...
> > was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and
> > "winch"?) ...
>
> Hoists are for lifting, winches are for pulling.
What's the difference? A winch rated for 1000lbs. has to pull with
1000lbs. force. A hoist has to pull the same force. Obviously I'm
missing something basic here.
> As well as the connection, need to be sure you're attaching it to
> something that can hold the load.
The "attaching it to" is easy. A few 2x12s can easily support a
1000lbs, once the interface problem is solved. ;-) The floor has
to support the same load.
> A FWW a couple years ago had a shop in upstairs over garage w/ the same
> idea. It, of course, was designed dedicated so he designed for and
> installed a full length trolley beam, but a simple block and tackle was
> sufficient for lifting even larger qear. (IIRC, he had an old 20+"
> jointer which would have been roughly twice your weight...
I thought of using something simpler since moving the tools is a
one-time (maybe two ;) thing. I figured that once I solved the
difficult problem of the tools, materials would be a piece of cake.
I also need to get a pile of plywood (flooring) and sheetrock up
there. Carrying any of this stuff through the house won't impress
SWMBO. The fallback position will be to keep the big tools in the
garage and move partially finished stuff upstairs. This doesn't
sound like a lot of fun though.
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >> krw wrote:
> >> ...
> >>> was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and
> >>> "winch"?) ...
> >> Hoists are for lifting, winches are for pulling.
> >
> > What's the difference? ...
>
> Winches for pulling don't have the safety locks for overhead lifts
> hoists do...
Ok, that makes some sense, at least. Hoists automatically have
safety locks? What sort of locks?
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> krw wrote:
> ...
> > Ok, that makes some sense, at least. Hoists automatically have
> > safety locks? What sort of locks?
>
> The ones that don't drop loads on your head... :)
Ok. ;-) Is there anything, written in stone, what these locks have
to be? Is there a way of determining what they are for a given
hoist? Specs? Standards?
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> ...
>
> >> Winches for pulling don't have the safety locks for overhead lifts
> >> hoists do...
> >
> > Ok, that makes some sense, at least. Hoists automatically have
> > safety locks? What sort of locks?
>
> Even winches that do have brakes or locking mechanisms won't be rated
> for overhead lifts unless they actually are designed as dual-purpose.
>
> Examples...
>
> Winch --
<snip>
> Hoist for comparison...
Your examples look like a Mercedes and VW. The Winches and Hoises I
was looking at had a cost differential much closer to 1.5:1 or 2:1
vs. 10 or 20:1.
<snip>
> Read the conditions in the manual for the same winch--
>
> 9. NEVER USE YOUR WINCH FOR HOISTING
> APPLICATIONS OR FOR LIFTING OR MOVING PEOPLE.
>
> 10. Your winch is not designed or intended for overhead hoisting
> operations.
They probably say they're not to be taken internally too... ;-)
> You'll find that universally so for all but a very tiny fraction (if
> any, I actually don't know of a dual-purpose one made, simply left it as
> a possibility that it could possibly be although it would then actually
> be a hoist, not a winch).
Point taken. The mounting hardware on the hoists looked a lot
skimpier, to me, than the winches.
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >> krw wrote:
> >> ...
> >>> Ok, that makes some sense, at least. Hoists automatically have
> >>> safety locks? What sort of locks?
> >> The ones that don't drop loads on your head... :)
> >
> > Ok. ;-) Is there anything, written in stone, what these locks have
> > to be? Is there a way of determining what they are for a given
> > hoist? Specs? Standards?
>
> I'm certain there are many Standards and, of course, in the US, OSHA
> rules. What any are, specifically, by number I don't know; not my
> field. I don't think there are requirements on the braking mechanisms
> themselves, per se, only that they perform the required specified
> function in a failsafe mode.
I would think there would be pointers in the literature ("meets
xyz789") but I see nothing.
> Look at the two links I posted earlier that point at a typical winch and
> overhead hoist to get an idea of the difference in equipment (and note
> relative costs).
I did, but the two aren't comparable for many reasons. One is a
commercial/industrial unit and the other is a homeowner's unit.
Such makes for bad comparisons.
> The general definition, however, holds--winches are for pulling and
> hoists are for raising.
I understood that. The difference obviously isn't the force, so I
asked specifically *what* the difference was. You've done a decent
job of explaining the difference. I only want a bit more
information ao I know what to look for (or forget the whole thing).
> While there are lots of folks who ignore such rules and many winches do
> have brakes and locks that are designed to prevent backsliding, they
> aren't intended for overhead lifting and such usage is risky at best.
>
> It's a lesson learned in the electric utility business where lifting is
> common, often complex and serious. It's no less serious for an
> individual w/ a 50-lb load above them--it'll kill just as readily.
I wouldn't be lifting anything over my head, though wouldn't much
like to see a $2000 saw break my garage floor either. ;-)
> For a home shop kind of thing you mentioned, unless you have budget, I'd
> go w/ the manual chain hoist myself rather than the power option.
Sounds like a RPITA to lift 10'-12'. Most I've seen don't have that
sort of lift.
> A good block and tackle works, but isn't nearly as risk-free or convenient.
Sounds more risky than a winch.
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >> krw wrote:
> >> ...
> >>> Ok, that makes some sense, at least. Hoists automatically have
> >>> safety locks? What sort of locks?
> >> The ones that don't drop loads on your head... :)
> >
> > Ok. ;-) Is there anything, written in stone, what these locks have
> > to be? Is there a way of determining what they are for a given
> > hoist? Specs? Standards?
>
> http://www.nssn.org/search/DetailResults.aspx?docid=584179&selnode=
Thank you, though like most such specs, it's not freely available.
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Requirements to overhead lifting devices depend on whether it is a job
> situation or not. They are all required to have a load holding brake,
> however.
>
> Note that not every lift is an overhead lift. For instance, if you
> lift a pallet with some machine into your trailer, it is not an
> overhead lift.
>
> That said, chain hosts are very cheap and buying one is a no
> brainer. Approximately $80 buys you a new 2 ton rated chain hoist that
> is approved for lifting applications.
>
> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=631
It's only a 10' lift, which I found common for chain hoists. A 10'
lift isn't going to do it. Twice that buys a 1300lb. electric unit
with a 25' lift.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=
2954
> I have one such hoist, it is slow, but it works fine. It has a brake
> that applies if any pulling effort is released. I used my hoist to
> lift a Bridgeport mill once. It worked okay.
The heaviest thing I'm interested in is a table saw (600lbs. total)
and that only once. It would also be nice to lift plywood and
sheetrock to finish the area.
> I think that "men with tools" need a variety of material handling
> equipment. I have a "engine hoist" aka shop crane, a lever hoist that
> I use for pulling, a chain hoist for lifting, and an assortment of
> chains, chain shorteners, etc
>
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> krw wrote:
> ...
> > I did, but the two aren't comparable for many reasons. One is a
> > commercial/industrial unit and the other is a homeowner's unit.
> > Such makes for bad comparisons.
>
> I wasn't shopping for you, I simply showed two that are roughly the same
> pulling power-rated mostly so you could see the characteristic
> difference between the design of a winch vis a vis a hoist.
>
> It's up to you to select what level of performance you're going to be
> satisfied with, I'm merely attempting to ensure you do understand the
> essential difference to avoid, hopefully, an accident down the road.
>
> >> The general definition, however, holds--winches are for pulling and
> >> hoists are for raising.
> >
> > I understood that. The difference obviously isn't the force, so I
> > asked specifically *what* the difference was. You've done a decent
> > job of explaining the difference. I only want a bit more
> > information ao I know what to look for (or forget the whole thing).
>
> I'd stick w/ reputable vendor/manufacturer and check out the manuals. I
> believe it's required for all to be compliant in the US to be legal, but
> it's an area of sufficient gravity (pun intended) that I, personally,
> would avoid the cheapest of Chinese knock-offs a la Harbor Freight, etc.
> They may be fine, but I'm not trusting my life to one, thank you very
> much.
>
> ...
>
> >> For a home shop kind of thing you mentioned, unless you have budget, I'd
> >> go w/ the manual chain hoist myself rather than the power option.
> >
> > Sounds like a RPITA to lift 10'-12'. Most I've seen don't have that
> > sort of lift.
>
> Actually, they're not that bad and have the facility to simply stop at
> any point. I think...flip, flip, flip--ah, yes...looking at the
> catalogue, Northern has up to 24' versions that I'd trust for $150 or less.
One could (as I've already done) do the same with two hoists. Your
comparison was unhelpful (though the rest of your posts have been
quite helpful - thanks).
> >> A good block and tackle works, but isn't nearly as risk-free or convenient.
> >
> > Sounds more risky than a winch.
>
> Not really if the winch doesn't failsafe on loss of power, for example.
> I don't recommend it as the first choice if the intent is a 1000-lb
> TS, but I don't have any real problems w/ them, either, if one is
> familiar w/ their operation. Having grown up on the farm we used the
> farm hay rake routinely and handled easily that much routinely but
> practice makes for easier and safer usage. It was 1-inch rope and does
> have reverse ratchets that work like dynamic braking on elevators if it
> starts to lower too rapidly and also has locking device. It was
> originally designed for use w/ horse/mule team, of course, although had
> switched to tractor power by the time I was large enough to be involved.
> Manually, one uses a snubbing post similar to a stationary bulldogging
> post (I'm sure that's a reference you're totally familiar with... :) ).
I've got the idea, but it still sounds dangerous. Many of these old
farm devices were.
I still haven't completely thought through this idea. You've given
me a lot to think about and safety is certainly one of my concerns.
Thanks again.
--
Keith
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> krw wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> ...
> > One could (as I've already done) do the same with two hoists. Your
> > comparison was unhelpful ...
>
> Well, so be it...
Your out of context quotation makes me look unappreciative of your
efforts. That certainly isn't the case. This one comparison was
all I was unhelpful.
--
Keith
I would use bolts and bottom plate lag screws would be silly.
If you do use lag screws get video of the first lift,
"Ignoramus7553" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
> weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
> 1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
> ramps.
>
> To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
> lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
> plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
> screws.
>
> My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
> wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
> grip given by extra length is meaningless.
>
> --
> Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their
> inattention
> to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
> from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
> more readers you will need to find a different means of
> posting on Usenet.
> http://improve-usenet.org/
On 2008-09-22, David Merrill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Look here: http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/fplgtr113.htm
> and specifically here:
> http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch07.pdf for application
> guidance regarding use of lag screws.
>
> This (or any) design idea can't be meaningfully analyzed without at least a
> drawing (clear sketch)("worth 1000 words") of the configuration and loading
I do not have a picture at the moment. The cart is made of three 2x12
6 ft long boards (lengthwise boards), and three 36" long 2x12 boards
running perpendicularly to the 6 ft boards, under them.
==============================
###### ###### ######
You are viewing these boards, such that you are seeing the long side
of the top boards (depicted by ========), and only the cross section
of the crossmember board, depicted by ######. If you now turned that T
by 90 degrees, you would see
====== ====== ======
####################
The weldment comprised of a 1/4" plate and eyebolt looks like this
!!
!!
=========
or
/~\
\ /
=~~~=
or
====!!====
==o=!!=o==
====!!====
==o=!!=o==
====!!====
The steel plate is roughly 6x2x1/4. The eyebolt is roughly 2" in
diameter, 5/8" thick. The holes in the 1/4" plate are depicted by
letters "o" on the last picture. They are 5/16" diameter and
accommodate 5/16 by 5" long lag screws.
The top two lag screws are parallel to the grain of the top board.
The bottom two lag screws are perpendicular to the grain of the bottom
board.
I am least concerned about the weld.
i
> directions envisioned. I suspect that each of your respondants has
> visualized something different. Generally, I too tend to favor bolts with
> nuts and washers. When all is said and done, the orientation and integrity
> of the proposed weld in the ring could still prove to be the weak link.
>
> David Merrill
>
> "Ignoramus7553" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
>> weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
>> 1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
>> ramps.
>>
>> To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
>> lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
>> plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
>> screws.
>>
>> My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
>> wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
>> grip given by extra length is meaningless.
>>
>
>
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/
Requirements to overhead lifting devices depend on whether it is a job
situation or not. They are all required to have a load holding brake,
however.
Note that not every lift is an overhead lift. For instance, if you
lift a pallet with some machine into your trailer, it is not an
overhead lift.
That said, chain hosts are very cheap and buying one is a no
brainer. Approximately $80 buys you a new 2 ton rated chain hoist that
is approved for lifting applications.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=631
I have one such hoist, it is slow, but it works fine. It has a brake
that applies if any pulling effort is released. I used my hoist to
lift a Bridgeport mill once. It worked okay.
I think that "men with tools" need a variety of material handling
equipment. I have a "engine hoist" aka shop crane, a lever hoist that
I use for pulling, a chain hoist for lifting, and an assortment of
chains, chain shorteners, etc
--
Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their inattention
to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
more readers you will need to find a different means of
posting on Usenet.
http://improve-usenet.org/
On 2008-09-21, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:49:02 -0500, Ignoramus7553
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
>>weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
>>1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
>>ramps.
>>
>>To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
>>lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
>>plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
>>screws.
>>
>>My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
>>wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
>>grip given by extra length is meaningless.
>
> Define "wood cart", please.. especially the material it's made of..
three 2x12 6' long. Three crossmembers, at front, aft and rear,
2x10s. The crossmembers are attached to lengthwise 2x12s by means of
wood glue and screws.
> It seems to weigh 200 pounds?
Maybe 150 or 170.
> Will the lag bolts be in a 2x4" a 4x4" or maybe 1/4" ply?
> Why specifically 5/15" lags?
Lag bolts are 5" long, 5/16 in diameter, there is four of them,
screwed into those 2x12 and 2x10s.
This is for pulling, not lifting.
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On 2008-09-21, Puckdropper <puckdropper> wrote:
> One thing to consider is that with lag bolts you have to drive the entire
> bolt in. At 4" long, that's a lot of driving to do. Conversely, with
> machine bolts (such as carriage bolts) all you've got to do is drill a
> through hole and attach the nut.
>
> Just something to think about as you get to building. On my ice rink last
> year I switched after the second lag bolt to carriage bolts and got the
> thing assembled.
I used an impact. It was not a problem. I think that I would not
hesitate to use this ring for general pulling of this around the yard,
but when it comes to winching it into the trailer, I may attach a slig
somewhere else.
--
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On Sep 21, 1:49=A0am, Ignoramus7553 <[email protected]>
wrote:
> I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
> weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
> 1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
> ramps.
>
> To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
> lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
> plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
> screws.
>
> My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
> wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
> grip given by extra length is meaningless.
Here's a lag screw load calculator:
http://www.awc.org/calculators/connections/ccstyle.asp?
R
"Ignoramus7553" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
> weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
> 1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
> ramps.
>
> To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
> lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
> plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
> screws.
>
> My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
> wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
> grip given by extra length is meaningless.
>
I have worked with lag screws extensively and I do not feel confident that
lag screws will hold consistently any heavy load if the stress is being
applied vertically. Horizontally (to the lag screw) perhaps, but not
vertically.
If the lag screws are stressed sideways, I would want at least 3 1/2" to 4"
minimum.
I would suggest some kind of threaded BIG bolts, another plate on the other
side from the eye plate, and extra nuts.
I have built platforms that needed to be winched onto a trailer or truck
before. What I did was to jrill a big hole and run a bolt throough it. I
cut out a section near the middle of the bolt. I then threaded the bolt
through a big iron ring. This was sufficent for any kind of hook or other
means of attaching the cart to the cable.
Ignoramus6193 wrote:
> On 2008-09-21, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Define "wood cart", please.. especially the material it's made of..
>
>
> three 2x12 6' long. Three crossmembers, at front, aft and rear,
> 2x10s. The crossmembers are attached to lengthwise 2x12s by means of
> wood glue and screws.
>
>
It sounds like the glue joint would have to be end grain to long grain
making it just about useless. What do you suppose the shear strength of
the screws are for the cross member that the "lifting eye" will be
attached to?
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
Ignoramus6193 wrote:
> On 2008-09-21, Puckdropper <puckdropper> wrote:
>> One thing to consider is that with lag bolts you have to drive the entire
>> bolt in. At 4" long, that's a lot of driving to do. Conversely, with
>> machine bolts (such as carriage bolts) all you've got to do is drill a
>> through hole and attach the nut.
>>
>> Just something to think about as you get to building. On my ice rink last
>> year I switched after the second lag bolt to carriage bolts and got the
>> thing assembled.
>
> I used an impact. It was not a problem. I think that I would not
> hesitate to use this ring for general pulling of this around the yard,
> but when it comes to winching it into the trailer, I may attach a slig
> somewhere else.
>
Yes; use an impact wrench, just be careful that you don't twist the
shaft in two when you do.
Dave N
"Ignoramus7553" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
> weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
> 1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
> ramps.
>
> To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
> lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
> plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
> screws.
>
> My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
> wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
> grip given by extra length is meaningless.
>
> --
> Due to extreme spam originating from Google Groups, and their
> inattention
> to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
> from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
> more readers you will need to find a different means of
> posting on Usenet.
> http://improve-usenet.org/
I'd use bolts, not lags.
Ignoramus7553 wrote:
> I have a wooden cart on casters on which I will have a generator. Its
> weight is 1,400 lbs, and the weight of the entire stucture would be
> 1,600 lbs. This cart may one day be winched into a trailer on
> ramps.
>
> To the front of the cart, I want to attach a lifting eye. It is a big
> lifting eye with the threaded stem removed, and welded to a 1/4"
> plate, which would be attached to the cart by means of four 5/16" lag
> screws.
>
> My question is, what is the optimal length of these lag screws. The
> wood is regular soft wood. I assume that beyond some length, the extra
> grip given by extra length is meaningless.
I agree w/ Lee the way to do this is w/ a through connection.
Lags aren't reliable enough for the job at hand and aren't intended for
tension loads at all and certainly shouldn't be used for lifting scenarios.
--
Ignoramus6193 wrote:
...
> Lag bolts are 5" long, 5/16 in diameter, there is four of them,
> screwed into those 2x12 and 2x10s.
In which direction?
> This is for pulling, not lifting.
Same problem -- load isn't as great, but it's still a safety issue if it
pulls out while somebody is behind the ramp.
It's not at all an optimal design choice and it would seem essentially
trivial to make the lags machine bolts, ideally w/ the plate also on the
back side.
Note the pulling resistance of lags is only slightly over the weight
from the calculator posted which provides essentially a safety factor of
1.0 -- again an indication you're under-designed.
--
krw wrote:
...
> was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and
> "winch"?) ...
Hoists are for lifting, winches are for pulling.
As well as the connection, need to be sure you're attaching it to
something that can hold the load.
A FWW a couple years ago had a shop in upstairs over garage w/ the same
idea. It, of course, was designed dedicated so he designed for and
installed a full length trolley beam, but a simple block and tackle was
sufficient for lifting even larger qear. (IIRC, he had an old 20+"
jointer which would have been roughly twice your weight...
--
Ignoramus15296 wrote:
...
> The top two lag screws are parallel to the grain of the top board.
...
Those two are in end grain and they're essentially worthless in tension.
You don't have nearly enough "beef" in the attachment. As long as
you're only dragging it around on the ground all that will happen is it
stops following, but you definitely have a serious hazard when/if you
try to get that off the ground.
That isn't exactly the orientation I had envisioned as you're dragging
crossways of the "runners" below instead of with them which will be the
most friction you can have. I'd suggest two things...
1. Turn it around and pull from the 90-deg position from where you
currently are. An additional "runner" underneath might be advantageous
to cut down the friction depending on the surface.
2. I'd find or make a square 'U' bracket to go over the two pieces at
the front edge and bolt thru the top/bottom w/ carriage bolts for a much
more secure/stout connection. A heavy wraparound fence hinge strap for
3" thick might work well or just bend some flat.
Using your artwork,
---|
====== ====== ======|O <-- attachment point ring
####################|
----
--
dpb wrote:
...
> 2. I'd find or make a square 'U' bracket ...
>
> Using your artwork,
>
> ---|
> ====== ====== ======|O <-- attachment point ring
> ####################|
> ----
Actually, something that would work nearly as well and let you even use
the lags (where I'd not complain too much :) ) would be
>
> ====== ====== ======|O <-- attachment point ring
> ####################|
> ----
using an angle. Then the lags at both the top and the bottom are out of
the end grain and the primary loading is lateral as opposed to in the
withdrawal mode, a much more secure arrangement.
--
krw wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> krw wrote:
>> ...
>>> was considering a hoist (what's the difference between a "hoist" and
>>> "winch"?) ...
>> Hoists are for lifting, winches are for pulling.
>
> What's the difference? ...
Winches for pulling don't have the safety locks for overhead lifts
hoists do...
--
krw wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
...
>> Winches for pulling don't have the safety locks for overhead lifts
>> hoists do...
>
> Ok, that makes some sense, at least. Hoists automatically have
> safety locks? What sort of locks?
Even winches that do have brakes or locking mechanisms won't be rated
for overhead lifts unless they actually are designed as dual-purpose.
Examples...
Winch --
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200320251_200320251
1500-lb AC powered
From the product description...
"Features an all-steel planetary geartrain, dynamic and mechanical brake
and circuit breaker protection"
Sounds just fine, doesn't it?
Read the conditions in the manual for the same winch--
9. NEVER USE YOUR WINCH FOR HOISTING
APPLICATIONS OR FOR LIFTING OR MOVING PEOPLE.
10. Your winch is not designed or intended for overhead hoisting
operations.
You'll find that universally so for all but a very tiny fraction (if
any, I actually don't know of a dual-purpose one made, simply left it as
a possibility that it could possibly be although it would then actually
be a hoist, not a winch).
Hoist for comparison...
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200342848_200342848
--
krw wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> krw wrote:
>> ...
>>> Ok, that makes some sense, at least. Hoists automatically have
>>> safety locks? What sort of locks?
>> The ones that don't drop loads on your head... :)
>
> Ok. ;-) Is there anything, written in stone, what these locks have
> to be? Is there a way of determining what they are for a given
> hoist? Specs? Standards?
I'm certain there are many Standards and, of course, in the US, OSHA
rules. What any are, specifically, by number I don't know; not my
field. I don't think there are requirements on the braking mechanisms
themselves, per se, only that they perform the required specified
function in a failsafe mode.
Look at the two links I posted earlier that point at a typical winch and
overhead hoist to get an idea of the difference in equipment (and note
relative costs).
The general definition, however, holds--winches are for pulling and
hoists are for raising.
While there are lots of folks who ignore such rules and many winches do
have brakes and locks that are designed to prevent backsliding, they
aren't intended for overhead lifting and such usage is risky at best.
It's a lesson learned in the electric utility business where lifting is
common, often complex and serious. It's no less serious for an
individual w/ a 50-lb load above them--it'll kill just as readily.
For a home shop kind of thing you mentioned, unless you have budget, I'd
go w/ the manual chain hoist myself rather than the power option.
A good block and tackle works, but isn't nearly as risk-free or convenient.
--
krw wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> krw wrote:
>> ...
>>> Ok, that makes some sense, at least. Hoists automatically have
>>> safety locks? What sort of locks?
>> The ones that don't drop loads on your head... :)
>
> Ok. ;-) Is there anything, written in stone, what these locks have
> to be? Is there a way of determining what they are for a given
> hoist? Specs? Standards?
http://www.nssn.org/search/DetailResults.aspx?docid=584179&selnode=
ASME American Society of Mechanical Engineers
Document #: ANSI/ASME HST-4-1999
Title: Performance Standard for Overhead Electric Wire Rope Hoists
Scope: Establishes performance requirements for electric wire rope
hoists for vertical lifting service involving material handling of
freely suspended (unguided) loads using wire rope with one of the
following types of suspension: (a) lug, (b) hook, (c) trolley, (d) base
or deck mounted, and (e) wall or ceiling mounted.
--
krw wrote:
...
> I did, but the two aren't comparable for many reasons. One is a
> commercial/industrial unit and the other is a homeowner's unit.
> Such makes for bad comparisons.
I wasn't shopping for you, I simply showed two that are roughly the same
pulling power-rated mostly so you could see the characteristic
difference between the design of a winch vis a vis a hoist.
It's up to you to select what level of performance you're going to be
satisfied with, I'm merely attempting to ensure you do understand the
essential difference to avoid, hopefully, an accident down the road.
>> The general definition, however, holds--winches are for pulling and
>> hoists are for raising.
>
> I understood that. The difference obviously isn't the force, so I
> asked specifically *what* the difference was. You've done a decent
> job of explaining the difference. I only want a bit more
> information ao I know what to look for (or forget the whole thing).
I'd stick w/ reputable vendor/manufacturer and check out the manuals. I
believe it's required for all to be compliant in the US to be legal, but
it's an area of sufficient gravity (pun intended) that I, personally,
would avoid the cheapest of Chinese knock-offs a la Harbor Freight, etc.
They may be fine, but I'm not trusting my life to one, thank you very
much.
...
>> For a home shop kind of thing you mentioned, unless you have budget, I'd
>> go w/ the manual chain hoist myself rather than the power option.
>
> Sounds like a RPITA to lift 10'-12'. Most I've seen don't have that
> sort of lift.
Actually, they're not that bad and have the facility to simply stop at
any point. I think...flip, flip, flip--ah, yes...looking at the
catalogue, Northern has up to 24' versions that I'd trust for $150 or less.
>> A good block and tackle works, but isn't nearly as risk-free or convenient.
>
> Sounds more risky than a winch.
Not really if the winch doesn't failsafe on loss of power, for example.
I don't recommend it as the first choice if the intent is a 1000-lb
TS, but I don't have any real problems w/ them, either, if one is
familiar w/ their operation. Having grown up on the farm we used the
farm hay rake routinely and handled easily that much routinely but
practice makes for easier and safer usage. It was 1-inch rope and does
have reverse ratchets that work like dynamic braking on elevators if it
starts to lower too rapidly and also has locking device. It was
originally designed for use w/ horse/mule team, of course, although had
switched to tractor power by the time I was large enough to be involved.
Manually, one uses a snubbing post similar to a stationary bulldogging
post (I'm sure that's a reference you're totally familiar with... :) ).
--
krw wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
...
> One could (as I've already done) do the same with two hoists. Your
> comparison was unhelpful ...
Well, so be it...
--
On 2008-09-22, David G. Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ignoramus6193 wrote:
>> On 2008-09-21, Puckdropper <puckdropper> wrote:
>>> One thing to consider is that with lag bolts you have to drive the entire
>>> bolt in. At 4" long, that's a lot of driving to do. Conversely, with
>>> machine bolts (such as carriage bolts) all you've got to do is drill a
>>> through hole and attach the nut.
>>>
>>> Just something to think about as you get to building. On my ice rink last
>>> year I switched after the second lag bolt to carriage bolts and got the
>>> thing assembled.
>>
>> I used an impact. It was not a problem. I think that I would not
>> hesitate to use this ring for general pulling of this around the yard,
>> but when it comes to winching it into the trailer, I may attach a slig
>> somewhere else.
>>
>
> Yes; use an impact wrench, just be careful that you don't twist the
> shaft in two when you do.
I drilled pilot holes. So driving these screws took only a couple of
minutes. You guys convinced me to not use it for winching it up the
trailer ramps. Otherwise using it for general moving about, should not
be a problem.
--
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to spammers, I and many others block all articles originating
from Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by
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