Howdy
I have seen them in commerical wholesale business. Why not make your
own. Ten feet would not require large gauge cable. The main thing is 4
wire cable and 220v m/f connectors. 12 gauge wire should be sufficient.
Keep in mind the longer the wire the less voltage at the other end.
Ron
"Ron Truitt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
> available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
> extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>
> Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
> never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>
> Thanks,
>
> RonT
>
"Ron Truitt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
> available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
> extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>
> Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
> never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>
> Thanks,
>
> RonT
>
They are hard to find.
What I did was to buy a 25 foot, 12 gauge, 120 volt, extension cord. Loop
off both ends, add an approprite male plug on the one end and completely
remove the original cord on the saw an install my new 25 footer. Cheaper as
you only need one plug, and no hassle with "one more cord" lying about.
Greg
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 00:53:11 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:02:54 GMT, mac davis <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>
>>In my area, (central CA), you can't GET them..
>>I had to make my own out of Romex...
>
>Don't you also have to show an id to buy spray paint? <G>
>
>Barry
haven't used it in years, but I think you do, if you look young (i
sure don't!)
between the sniffers and the taggers, they used to sell a lot of spray
paint!
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:30:06 -0700, Rebel \(Ron\) wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):
>> I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
>> available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
>> extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>>
>> Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
>> never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> RonT
>>
For a typical 3hp table saw you'll only need 12 gauge wire. Look for sales or
buy a 25 foot extension cord. Cut the ends off and install 220v plug and
receptacle that corresponds with your 220v socket and table saw plug. You
might need to install the receptacle in a metal box with the appropriate
strain relief to clam onto the cord. A nicer alternative is to buy the
sheathed 10 gauge 3/wire rubber covered (usually black) cut to your required
length. One wire to each hot and ground.
-Bruce
Install another 220v outlet (or two).
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:15 -0600, [email protected] (Ron Truitt)
wrote:
>I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
>available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
>extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>
>Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
>never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>
>Thanks,
>
>RonT
Phisherman writes:
>nstall another 220v outlet (or two).
>
>On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:15 -0600, [email protected] (Ron Truitt)
>wrote:
>
>>I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
>>available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
>>extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>>
>>Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
>>never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
I use two different pattern 220 volt extensions for machines that cannot be
moved close enough to any of the six 220 outlets I currently have. In many
cases, there simply is NO way to move the machine close enough to the outlet.
Short cords. Blocked outlets (with wood or other machines). Those are only
reasons.
I haven't found any commercially available 220 extensions, but there probably
are some. They're easy enough to make.
Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken
Charlie Self wrote:
> Phisherman writes:
>
>>nstall another 220v outlet (or two).
>>
>>On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:15 -0600, [email protected] (Ron Truitt)
>>wrote:
>>
>>>I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
>>>available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
>>>extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>>>
>>>Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
>>>never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>
> I use two different pattern 220 volt extensions for machines that cannot
> be moved close enough to any of the six 220 outlets I currently have. In
> many cases, there simply is NO way to move the machine close enough to the
> outlet. Short cords. Blocked outlets (with wood or other machines). Those
> are only reasons.
>
> I haven't found any commercially available 220 extensions, but there
> probably are some. They're easy enough to make.
Lowes usually has some in stock. Typically though you either have to make
up an adapter cable to get it to plug into whatever socket you have in the
wall and another one at the other end or change the plug on the machine to
match the cord. Or you need to cut the connectors off and replace them
with connectors that match your machine and outlet, in which case you may
as well just get a 110v cord and do the same. Finding plugs that fit a
standard dryer outlet can be problematical--you may have to get a
replacement dryer cord and put a socket on the other end of it that takes a
readily available plug.
> Charlie Self
> "Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than
> Christianity has made them good." H. L. Mencken
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Again, a very informative thread.
One thing which hasn't been mentioned, is the importance of
strain-relieves. When using a twist-lock plug, the amount of pull on a
'tripped-over' wire can be enough to break away the stranded wires from
the attachment screws. Make sure that the strain relief is suited for
size of the wire chosen.
Sometimes people think they need to go to heavier gauge wire when the
voltage doubles, while in fact the opposite is true.
my 2 cents worth ($33.00 Canadian)
I found a 30ft cord with molded 120v ends that was cheaper than 15ft
of cord. I cut it in three pieces and added 220v connectors to the
middle piece. I put the appropriate 120v connectors on the other ends
(10ft and 5ft), and have a couple heavy duty cords in handy lengths
for other tools.
[email protected]> wrote:
>Get a 25 or 50 ft, 12-2 /w/ ground, molded cord set of whatever voltage is
>available at the lowest price.
>
>Cut off the female end and wire into saw.
>
>If not already 240V, cut off male plug and rewire with 240V plug.
>
>It is how I rigged mine.
>
>HTH
>
>Lew
On 29 Nov 2004 09:11:28 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>I haven't found any commercially available 220 extensions, but there probably
>are some. They're easy enough to make.
Many times installing a longer cord on the machine is cheaper than an
extension cord. One, maybe two less connectors to buy!
Barry
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:32:11 GMT, Ba r r y
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 29 Nov 2004 09:11:28 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
>wrote:
>
>>I haven't found any commercially available 220 extensions, but there probably
>>are some. They're easy enough to make.
>
>
>Many times installing a longer cord on the machine is cheaper than an
>extension cord. One, maybe two less connectors to buy!
>
>Barry
that's true... I forgot about that...
when I had a 220v dryer (yuk!) I bought a new cord for it that was 4'
longer, so that I didn't need an extension cord.. (HD has 'em)
(Ron Truitt) writes:
>I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
>available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
>extension cord of 10 feet or so.
Get a 25 or 50 ft, 12-2 /w/ ground, molded cord set of whatever voltage is
available at the lowest price.
Cut off the female end and wire into saw.
If not already 240V, cut off male plug and rewire with 240V plug.
It is how I rigged mine.
HTH
Lew
"Ron Truitt" wrote in message
> I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
> available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
> extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>
> Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
> never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
IME, 220v extension cords are hard to come by locally, and cheaper to make
yourself. Just use the proper gauge wire, preferably stranded for an
extension cord, for the amperage of your circuit, and you will be fine.
For my table saw I made a 15' extension cord out of the 10 ga stranded wire,
which is the same size in the circuit to the receptacle. Male and female
plugs are generally available at the BORGs.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/04
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:15 -0600, [email protected] (Ron Truitt)
wrote:
>I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
>available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
>extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>
>Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
>never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>
>Thanks,
>
>RonT
generally you make your own.
go buy a heavy duty 50' cord and cut 15 ' off of the female end.
get a 220v plug to match your receptacle and useit and the 15' piece
to replace the cord on your saw.
also get a 4square double gang box with a cover and a couple of 110v
receptacles to go in it. wire that into the remainder of your 50'
cord. very useful...
Yup. Saw it. Don't see where it applies???
bob g.
Brett A. Thomas wrote:
> Robert Galloway wrote:
>
>> I have 220 volt extension cords all over the shop. Somebody more
>> attuned to the regs may tell you I'm crazy, I don't know. I just buy
>> the heavyest cable I can find, #12 extension cord or #10 stranded
>> cable with a heavy jacket off the spool. Put a plug on one end and an
>> outlet to match your tool on the other. Run the tool where you want
>> to, not close to where the outlet is.
>
>
> Hey, Bob, you see that great article in Tools & Shops this month about
> shop fires? ;)
>
> -BAT
"Rebel (Ron)" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Howdy
> I have seen them in commerical wholesale business. Why not make your
> own. Ten feet would not require large gauge cable.
10 guage cable will support up to 30 amps.
> The main thing is 4
> wire cable and 220v m/f connectors.
3 wire is all he'll need for shop tools, unless he's hooking up a clothes
dryer next to his table saw.
> 12 gauge wire should be sufficient.
Maybe - depends on the current draw of the tool. 12 guage will support 20
amps - likely sufficient for most tools that will plug into an extension
cord.
> Keep in mind the longer the wire the less voltage at the other end.
Not at these lengths.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
[email protected] (Ron Truitt) wrote in news:20863-41AA5573-87
@storefull-3175.bay.webtv.net:
> I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
> available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
> extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>
> Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
> never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>
> Thanks,
>
> RonT
>
Home Depot in the extension cord section. I have a 9' on my jointer.
About $10.00.. WAY cheaper than making one.
Alan
"mac davis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:15 -0600, [email protected] (Ron Truitt)
> wrote:
>
> >I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
> >available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
> >extension cord of 10 feet or so.
> >
> >Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
> >never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >RonT
>
> In my area, (central CA), you can't GET them..
> I had to make my own out of Romex...
>
ewwww.
-j
I have 220 volt extension cords all over the shop. Somebody more
attuned to the regs may tell you I'm crazy, I don't know. I just buy
the heavyest cable I can find, #12 extension cord or #10 stranded cable
with a heavy jacket off the spool. Put a plug on one end and an outlet
to match your tool on the other. Run the tool where you want to, not
close to where the outlet is.
bob g.
Ron Truitt wrote:
> I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
> available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
> extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>
> Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
> never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>
> Thanks,
>
> RonT
>
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 16:47:15 -0600, [email protected] (Ron Truitt)
wrote:
>I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
>available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
>extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>
>Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
>never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>
>Thanks,
>
>RonT
In my area, (central CA), you can't GET them..
I had to make my own out of Romex...
A good electical house will have them, Grainger, McMaster Carr, MSC
will also have them if you are in the US. You just get some SO or SJ
cord the correct gauge. Hubbell is one brand. Pass & Seymour is
another brand.
[email protected] (Ron Truitt) wrote:
>I am considering getting a 220 volt table saw but have 220 volt
>available at the entrance to my garage and would have to have an
>extension cord of 10 feet or so.
>
>Is that a problem and if not are they comercially available? I have
>never seen anything in 220 but am not use to the search.
>
>Thanks,
>
>RonT
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 19:02:54 GMT, mac davis <[email protected]>
wrote:
>In my area, (central CA), you can't GET them..
>I had to make my own out of Romex...
Don't you also have to show an id to buy spray paint? <G>
Barry
Robert Galloway wrote:
> I have 220 volt extension cords all over the shop. Somebody more
> attuned to the regs may tell you I'm crazy, I don't know. I just buy
> the heavyest cable I can find, #12 extension cord or #10 stranded cable
> with a heavy jacket off the spool. Put a plug on one end and an outlet
> to match your tool on the other. Run the tool where you want to, not
> close to where the outlet is.
Hey, Bob, you see that great article in Tools & Shops this month about
shop fires? ;)
-BAT
>
> I've never once plugged in a new extension cord and
> thought, "I hope this works."
I have - ever since I plugged something into a brand new extension cord
and ended up with a whole lot of arcing going on. Scared me half to
death as it was one of those "fancy" cords with 3 outlets on the end,
and clear plastic so you could see the little neon light in there to
show you it was live. The act of plugging in a tool caused one of the
parts of the outlet to shift inside the plastic and contact another
part. Needless to say I was not amused.
Goofy thing is that this of course was a more expensive cord while I
normally get el-cheapo extension cords that I treat almost as
disposable. A nick in the insulation and it gets cut in half for use
in other projects.
Dan
>
> I've never once plugged in a new extension cord and
> thought, "I hope this works."
I have - ever since I plugged something into a brand new extension cord
and ended up with a whole lot of arcing going on. Scared me half to
death as it was one of those "fancy" cords with 3 outlets on the end,
and clear plastic so you could see the little neon light in there to
show you it was live. The act of plugging in a tool caused one of the
parts of the outlet to shift inside the plastic and contact another
part. Needless to say I was not amused.
Goofy thing is that this of course was a more expensive cord while I
normally get el-cheapo extension cords that I treat almost as
disposable. A nick in the insulation and it gets cut in half for use
in other projects.
Dan
Brett A. Thomas responds:
>Robert Galloway wrote:
>> I have 220 volt extension cords all over the shop. Somebody more
>> attuned to the regs may tell you I'm crazy, I don't know. I just buy
>> the heavyest cable I can find, #12 extension cord or #10 stranded cable
>> with a heavy jacket off the spool. Put a plug on one end and an outlet
>> to match your tool on the other. Run the tool where you want to, not
>> close to where the outlet is.
>
>Hey, Bob, you see that great article in Tools & Shops this month about
>shop fires? ;)
And why would 240 volt extension cords be any more likely to create shop fires
than would, say, 120 volt extension cords?
Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 13:59:47 -0800, Brett A. Thomas <[email protected]> wrote:
> Charlie Self wrote:
>> And why would 240 volt extension cords be any more likely to create shop fires
>> than would, say, 120 volt extension cords?
>
> Just a joke, Charlie. Although, FWIW, I'd tend to be a little more
> suspicious of shop-made extension cords (whatever their voltage) than of
> the UL-listed ones. No disrespect to Bob's cable-making in particular
> intended, though.
Well...if you're using UL listed connectors, and UL listed wire, and
using both according to how they're supposed to be used, you're fine.
An interesting side note - coiling of extension cords while in use is
a really, really bad idea. It makes a huge inductor (coil) which blocks
AC current and generates a LOT of heat. I have a friend who is a master
electrician, and among other jobs always handles the power systems at the
county fair. He's got more than a couple trophies which are melted-together
coils of what used to be extension cords on reels of one sort or another.
Power loss is substantial in a coiled AC cord.
That said, I have no hesitation making my own extension cords where
appropriate, but I do the calculations before I do so.
Dave Hinz
My 10-3 awg extension with heavy neoprene cover and carrying 220 volts
will probably stand up to more than most of the extension cords I've
seen contractors running around job sites carrying 110 volts. Amps
versus wire guage are probably most important in overheating and general
construction will determine how well it stands up to foot traffic and
having things rolled over it such as mobile base mounted tools or
wheelbarrows.
bob g.
Charlie Self wrote:
> Brett A. Thomas responds:
>
>
>>Robert Galloway wrote:
>>
>>>I have 220 volt extension cords all over the shop. Somebody more
>>>attuned to the regs may tell you I'm crazy, I don't know. I just buy
>>>the heavyest cable I can find, #12 extension cord or #10 stranded cable
>>>with a heavy jacket off the spool. Put a plug on one end and an outlet
>>>to match your tool on the other. Run the tool where you want to, not
>>>close to where the outlet is.
>>
>>Hey, Bob, you see that great article in Tools & Shops this month about
>>shop fires? ;)
>
>
> And why would 240 volt extension cords be any more likely to create shop fires
> than would, say, 120 volt extension cords?
>
> Charlie Self
> "Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
> has made them good." H. L. Mencken
hey, guys. No offence intended, none taken.
bob g.
Brett A. Thomas wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> "Brett A. Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>> Just a joke, Charlie. Although, FWIW, I'd tend to be a little more
>>> suspicious of shop-made extension cords (whatever their voltage) than of
>>> the UL-listed ones.
>>
>>
>> Would you be equally more suspicious of shop made wood products than of
>> commercially manufactured ones?
>
>
> Well, I don't believe most common wood furniture goes through quite the
> UL-sponsored torture testing most extension cords do, so I don't think
> that's particularly a fair question. I also think most shop-made cords
> are probably not as extensively designed and engineered as most
> shop-made wood products. And, finally, if I mess up a bench in the
> shop, it's probably not going to catch on fire. [Pauses briefly to
> imagine screwing up a bench so badly that it bursts into flames].
>
> Anyway, I was just trying to make a lighthearted comment and apparently
> have now offended half of rec.woodworking. I'm sure at some point I'll
> make an extension cord myself and it'll work just fine. All I'm saying
> is it'll be six months before I stop looking at it carefully everytime I
> use it - and that wouldn't be true of a UL-listed extension cord.
>
> -BAT
"Brett A. Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Charlie Self wrote:
> > And why would 240 volt extension cords be any more likely to create shop
fires
> > than would, say, 120 volt extension cords?
>
> Just a joke, Charlie. Although, FWIW, I'd tend to be a little more
> suspicious of shop-made extension cords (whatever their voltage) than of
> the UL-listed ones. No disrespect to Bob's cable-making in particular
> intended, though.
Would you be equally more suspicious of shop made wood products than of
commercially manufactured ones?
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Brett A. Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Hey Brett, I'll throw this in out of order, just to set the stage... not to
worry - you didn't offend anyone.
>
> Well, I don't believe most common wood furniture goes through quite the
> UL-sponsored torture testing most extension cords do, so I don't think
> that's particularly a fair question. I also think most shop-made cords
> are probably not as extensively designed and engineered as most
> shop-made wood products. And, finally, if I mess up a bench in the
> shop, it's probably not going to catch on fire. [Pauses briefly to
> imagine screwing up a bench so badly that it bursts into flames].
Part of what folks tend to respond to is the drama of statements like this
and the drama implied in what you originally threw out there with your first
comment. It might be that you intended no such drama, but there is a whole
history of usenet that preceeds you and folks become somwhat conditioned.
We're used to seeing people who make comments about requireing UL approved
cords often times having no clue about building a simple extension cord that
is many times more reliable, safe, suited to its use, etc. than the UL
tagged product from the local department store that others seem to take
refuge in. Too often its the UL tag that satisfies the uninformed user, and
not the construction of the cord. Those fires you refer to are typically
not "burst into flames" type of fires (drama). In fact, I'd go so far as to
say never. Electrical fires are slow starters, and most typically from such
causes as under rated UL approved cords.
As to most shop made wood products being well engineered, I'd suggest most
are very poorly engineered. Over built because of a lack of real
engineering. Not that it's such a bad thing, but I certainly would not
agree with your statement above. There really is not much engineering to a
properly constructed extension cord. If you can trim insulating material,
operate a screw driver, and have a modicom of common sense, a well built
extension cord is well within the reach of most anybody.
>
> Anyway, I was just trying to make a lighthearted comment and apparently
> have now offended half of rec.woodworking.
Nah. No offense. But... your comment above makes it appear you comments
are not so light hearted. Maybe because you don't do any electrical work?
That would seem reasonable enough. People who don't understand something
are often afraid of it.
> I'm sure at some point I'll
> make an extension cord myself and it'll work just fine.
Just be sure to post pics on abpw...
>All I'm saying
> is it'll be six months before I stop looking at it carefully everytime I
> use it - and that wouldn't be true of a UL-listed extension cord.
>
Oh, take the plunge - build one. You'll never be the same afterwards.
Here's a guess - I bet you are using UL approved cords that are more of a
fire risk right now than any cord that most people here would build for a
given application. Placing too much confidence - any confidence in a UL
tag, to the exclusion of any other understanding of electricity is more of a
fire/shock hazard than what you'd face with a properly built cord.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Mike Marlow wrote:
> work. Though... I might suggest that it really is something of a matter of
> not trusting your own work.
Actually it's less a fear of not screwing things in right than of simply
not making the right decisions to begin with. I teach myself a lot of
things, and I learn by making a lot of mistakes. I've read all I can
stand on the subject, and I *think* I know what I'm doing, but I'm not
really going to trust it until it works for a long time. Much the same
way the second piece of furniture I built was a bed for my son, and it
was at least a year before I stopped sitting down on it gingerly.
In fact, in my experience teaching myself things, right now is the _the
most dangerous_ time for me - I *think* I know what I'm doing with
electricity. That might be a false confidence, though, so I'm extra
careful.
-BAT
> > Would you be equally more suspicious of shop made wood products than of
> > commercially manufactured ones?
>
> Well, I don't believe most common wood furniture goes through quite the
> UL-sponsored torture testing most extension cords do, so I don't think
> that's particularly a fair question. I also think most shop-made cords
> are probably not as extensively designed and engineered as most
> shop-made wood products. And, finally, if I mess up a bench in the
> shop, it's probably not going to catch on fire. [Pauses briefly to
> imagine screwing up a bench so badly that it bursts into flames].
>
> Anyway, I was just trying to make a lighthearted comment and apparently
> have now offended half of rec.woodworking. I'm sure at some point I'll
> make an extension cord myself and it'll work just fine. All I'm saying
> is it'll be six months before I stop looking at it carefully everytime I
> use it - and that wouldn't be true of a UL-listed extension cord.
>
> -BAT
I have some nice homemade 220V cords made up from 10GA SJ cable with hubbell
twistlocks on the ends.
They beat the pants off any factory made cord I could buy at the borg. No
need to look at them twice. Can you really be that doubtful about your
skills and of electricity?
-j
Mike Marlow wrote:
> Nah. No offense. But... your comment above makes it appear you comments
> are not so light hearted. Maybe because you don't do any electrical work?
> That would seem reasonable enough. People who don't understand something
> are often afraid of it.
Actually, I do a lot of my own electrical work. I have about twenty
years of hobbyist experience with low-voltage stuff, but my recent
acquisition of a 60 year-old house that was previously cared for by
chimpanzees has forced me to become a hobbyist electrician. I've
rewired a bunch of circuits in my house because the old ones were unsafe
(and didn't do what I wanted), and I've placed a subpanel in my detached
garage (shop), put in powered smoke detectors, replaced a doorbell and
tranformer, and run new outlets. I'll be doing all the wiring,
lighting, etc. in my shop, starting as soon as I get back on my feet
from knee surgery and get all the boxes of stuff out of it.
All I'm saying is that, as a Apprenctice-level electrician with no
Master in sight, all that wiring's going to have to work for a while
before I completely trust it. And that's not true of an extension cord
I get at HD - I've never once plugged in a new extension cord and
thought, "I hope this works." I don't see why that's controversial,
evidence of my lack of understanding of electricity, or proof that I
don't trust my own workmanship. Maybe after I've got ten years
experience working with 120/240 wiring I'll not think twice about my
wiring. But, not yet.
-BAT
"Brett A. Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike Marlow wrote:
> > Nah. No offense. But... your comment above makes it appear you
comments
> > are not so light hearted. Maybe because you don't do any electrical
work?
> > That would seem reasonable enough. People who don't understand
something
> > are often afraid of it.
>
> Actually, I do a lot of my own electrical work. I have about twenty
> years of hobbyist experience with low-voltage stuff, but my recent
> acquisition of a 60 year-old house that was previously cared for by
> chimpanzees has forced me to become a hobbyist electrician. I've
> rewired a bunch of circuits in my house because the old ones were unsafe
> (and didn't do what I wanted), and I've placed a subpanel in my detached
> garage (shop), put in powered smoke detectors, replaced a doorbell and
> tranformer, and run new outlets. I'll be doing all the wiring,
> lighting, etc. in my shop, starting as soon as I get back on my feet
> from knee surgery and get all the boxes of stuff out of it.
>
Ok - I was just taking a guess. I just assumed that if you had done some
electical work you'd have seen the similarities between wiring up a plug on
an extension cord and wiring in a duplex outlet, and have held a confidence
in shop made cords. Having seen some of your other comments about your
uncertainty with some of these things I guess it's just your nature to be a
little worried about them... and that's fine by me.
> All I'm saying is that, as a Apprenctice-level electrician with no
> Master in sight, all that wiring's going to have to work for a while
> before I completely trust it. And that's not true of an extension cord
> I get at HD - I've never once plugged in a new extension cord and
> thought, "I hope this works."
Hey - to each his own, right? You're the only person you have to satisfy in
this matter, so it doesn't matter what I think or anyone else.
> I don't see why that's controversial,
> evidence of my lack of understanding of electricity, or proof that I
> don't trust my own workmanship.
It's not really - that was just an assumption I made base on the way you
made your earlier comments more than anything else. Like I said, I assumed
that anyone who has wired up branch circuits would feel very comfortable
with something as simple as an extension cord, so I assumed that with your
reservations, it was possible you hadn't ever done any amount of electrical
work. Though... I might suggest that it really is something of a matter of
not trusting your own work.
> Maybe after I've got ten years
> experience working with 120/240 wiring I'll not think twice about my
> wiring. But, not yet.
>
Hell Brett, if you never become totally confident about your wiring, it's
not the end of the world. It's not like it's a big deal. You're the only
one affected by it so it's all just a matter of what you're comfortable
with.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Charlie Self wrote:
> And why would 240 volt extension cords be any more likely to create shop fires
> than would, say, 120 volt extension cords?
Just a joke, Charlie. Although, FWIW, I'd tend to be a little more
suspicious of shop-made extension cords (whatever their voltage) than of
the UL-listed ones. No disrespect to Bob's cable-making in particular
intended, though.
Mike Marlow wrote:
> "Brett A. Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>Just a joke, Charlie. Although, FWIW, I'd tend to be a little more
>>suspicious of shop-made extension cords (whatever their voltage) than of
>>the UL-listed ones.
>
> Would you be equally more suspicious of shop made wood products than of
> commercially manufactured ones?
Well, I don't believe most common wood furniture goes through quite the
UL-sponsored torture testing most extension cords do, so I don't think
that's particularly a fair question. I also think most shop-made cords
are probably not as extensively designed and engineered as most
shop-made wood products. And, finally, if I mess up a bench in the
shop, it's probably not going to catch on fire. [Pauses briefly to
imagine screwing up a bench so badly that it bursts into flames].
Anyway, I was just trying to make a lighthearted comment and apparently
have now offended half of rec.woodworking. I'm sure at some point I'll
make an extension cord myself and it'll work just fine. All I'm saying
is it'll be six months before I stop looking at it carefully everytime I
use it - and that wouldn't be true of a UL-listed extension cord.
-BAT
Charlie Self wrote:
> One good examination should do it. If you assemble the cord of top quality
> components and do the work carefully, it will show you all you need to know the
> first time you use it.
Well, it's probably just me. But I did that with wiring in my house and
it was at least three months before I stopped thinking, as I drifted off
to sleep, "gee, I hope that keeps working..." My two big goals in life
are to make it through without going to prison or burning my house down. :)
As a serious question - doesn't NEC kinda frown on "permanent" extension
cords? Would it be safer to replace the cords on your tools with
longer, permanent ones? Or is this what you guys have been talking
about, and I misunderstood?
-BAT
Brett Thomas asks:
>
>As a serious question - doesn't NEC kinda frown on "permanent" extension
>cords? Would it be safer to replace the cords on your tools with
>longer, permanent ones? Or is this what you guys have been talking
>about, and I misunderstood?
An extension is some of an impermanent tool by its very nature. AFAIK, for
hobby tools the NEC doesn't say a thing about putting longer cords on the tool
itself.
I don't do that because I need extension cords for various tools I test, the
cords are there, so there's not much point in lengthening the cord on my table
saw. Besides, what then happens if I move the table saw closer to the outlet,
or further away? Extension cords are temporary, can be replaced easily, and are
not any kind of real shop problem that I've ever heard of.
Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken
Charlie Self wrote:
> An extension is some of an impermanent tool by its very nature. AFAIK, for
> hobby tools the NEC doesn't say a thing about putting longer cords on the tool
> itself.
>
> I don't do that because I need extension cords for various tools I test, the
> cords are there, so there's not much point in lengthening the cord on my table
> saw. Besides, what then happens if I move the table saw closer to the outlet,
> or further away? Extension cords are temporary, can be replaced easily, and are
> not any kind of real shop problem that I've ever heard of.
To be clear, I'm asking not to lecture, but because my understanding of
practical electricity is imperfect, and I want to understand. I get why
_you'd_ need to do that, but I don't happen to have manufacturers
sending me tools that rotate in and out of my shop on a regular basis.
When I put a tool there, it's because (excepting shop reorgs) I expect
it to be there until it dies, or I do.
I believe that the logic behind the NEC frowning on permanent extension
cords (assuming my memory that they do is correct) is that every time
you have a non-hardwired connection, it's possible for it to work loose.
If it works loose, you can have arcing, which would be doubly bad if
it's in a pile of sawdust in a workshop at the time.
When I redo all my tools 220, I figured I'd need to replace the plugs,
anyway, so I'll make the tool cords be the necessary length to not need
extension cords. I'd figured this would be safer and neater.
-BAT
In article <[email protected]>,
Brett A. Thomas <[email protected]> wrote:
>Mike Marlow wrote:
>> anything you'd want to put in. You can get really carried away with this
>> stuff and sometimes you have to step back and say - hey, this is just a
>> hobby shop - do I really need this or that or the other thing, or is a
>> simpler method a better approach. Personal preference will prevail.
>
>Yeah, that's usually a danger for me. :) But I'm also a bit of a
>safety freak. I'm sure the price tags will dictate a lot of my design,
>anyway. At the very least, I'd really like to be able to actually *lock
>out* the big tools so I don't have to worry about the kids at all.
>That'll be very popular with SWMBO.
IF you're putting in a sub-panel, You can put in a 'manual disconnect'
_upstream_ of the panel. These are readily available at the BORG, as well
as any electrical supply house. For _not_ a whole lot of money.
Obviously, if you go this route, you run the circuits for the lighting
directly from the main panel. You do _not_ want the lock-out to disable
the lighting._
'panic buttons' are a whole nother story. These require a 'contactor' (the
name for a 'really heavy-duty relay', and some trivial control circuitry
that holds the contactor engaged, until a panic button is pushed.
Buying this kind of stuff new *is* generally price-prohibitive. However,
on the surplus market -- e.g. <http://www.surplussales.com> -- you can
find appropriate heavy-duty components for not a whole lot of money. I
haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if they even have the 'big red
button' panic buttons.
"Brett A. Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> J wrote:
> > We have disproved the safety part. Now tell me how it is neater. You
still
> > have a cord going from tool to socket in either case. In the case of
> > extension cords you can roll them up and put them away if you want to. I
do.
> > It means the kids can't turn on the machine by accident or even on
purpose.
>
> Well, this is getting into a whole other question, but I'd love feedback
> on this. My basic plan has been to run a dedicated set of wiring for
> fixed machines (defining "fixed" to include some stuff that's mobile but
> plugged in most of the time), and to have panic stops and a lockout box
> for those circuits. That'll let me lock down the stationary power tools
> when I leave the shop (in case the kids get in) but still have lights
> work, batteries charge, etc. Anyone have a good source for those kinds
> of electrical supplies (lockout boxes, panic buttons, etc)?
>
> -BAT
Well, the simplest lockout box is your subpanel. Throw the breakers when
you're done for the day and secure the subpanel in any way you're
comfortable with. You should be able to find a number of commercial
electrical supply houses near where you live that would have just about
anything you'd want to put in. You can get really carried away with this
stuff and sometimes you have to step back and say - hey, this is just a
hobby shop - do I really need this or that or the other thing, or is a
simpler method a better approach. Personal preference will prevail.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Brett A. Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> To be clear, I'm asking not to lecture, but because my understanding of
> practical electricity is imperfect, and I want to understand. I get why
> _you'd_ need to do that, but I don't happen to have manufacturers
> sending me tools that rotate in and out of my shop on a regular basis.
Ha! You gotta get a job like Charlie's Brett.
> When I put a tool there, it's because (excepting shop reorgs) I expect
> it to be there until it dies, or I do.
Maybe hardwire is the way for you to go. In my shop area tools move around
as they're needed. They don't always move to the same spot on the floor,
depending on what else is going on there. That's where extension cords come
in very handy. If they were stationary, and fixed, I'd hardwire them with
no plug at all.
>
> I believe that the logic behind the NEC frowning on permanent extension
> cords (assuming my memory that they do is correct) is that every time
> you have a non-hardwired connection, it's possible for it to work loose.
> If it works loose, you can have arcing, which would be doubly bad if
> it's in a pile of sawdust in a workshop at the time.
The same could be said of any plug, whether it's a UL listed cord, the plug
on the end of a cord hardwired to a table saw, or any other plug in your
shop. Where it's a concern for a plug coming loose, twist lock plugs
address the concern nicely.
>
> When I redo all my tools 220, I figured I'd need to replace the plugs,
> anyway, so I'll make the tool cords be the necessary length to not need
> extension cords. I'd figured this would be safer and neater.
>
Not really any safer in practical terms and I don't know how much neater
either. After all 10 or 20 or whatever feet of electrical cord is still 10
or 20 or whatever feet of electrical cord - no matter if it's one long piece
or two smaller ones in the form of an extension cord. But - since it sounds
more like you're permanently placing your stuff, why not just hardwire and
forget the plugs completely?
Just as a sideline, I have about 25 feet of cord wired to my table saw motor
so that I can put it anywhere and hit an outlet. It's really no different
than having a 6 foot cord and using an extension cord, but at one point I
had to replace my cord and I had some long stuff lying around so I just used
it that way. The one and only real disadvantage is that I always have 25
feet of cord to deal with as I move my saw around. Not a big deal at all,
but there are down sides to everything.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Robert Bonomi wrote:
> Buying this kind of stuff new *is* generally price-prohibitive. However,
> on the surplus market -- e.g. <http://www.surplussales.com> -- you can
> find appropriate heavy-duty components for not a whole lot of money. I
> haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if they even have the 'big red
> button' panic buttons.
Thanks for the link. I'm sure whenever I get it all done (or decide
it's not worth the effort & cost) I'll post pics...
-BAT
J wrote:
> We have disproved the safety part. Now tell me how it is neater. You still
> have a cord going from tool to socket in either case. In the case of
> extension cords you can roll them up and put them away if you want to. I do.
> It means the kids can't turn on the machine by accident or even on purpose.
Well, this is getting into a whole other question, but I'd love feedback
on this. My basic plan has been to run a dedicated set of wiring for
fixed machines (defining "fixed" to include some stuff that's mobile but
plugged in most of the time), and to have panic stops and a lockout box
for those circuits. That'll let me lock down the stationary power tools
when I leave the shop (in case the kids get in) but still have lights
work, batteries charge, etc. Anyone have a good source for those kinds
of electrical supplies (lockout boxes, panic buttons, etc)?
-BAT
"Brett A. Thomas" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I believe that the logic behind the NEC frowning on permanent extension
> cords (assuming my memory that they do is correct) is that every time
> you have a non-hardwired connection, it's possible for it to work loose.
> If it works loose, you can have arcing, which would be doubly bad if
> it's in a pile of sawdust in a workshop at the time.
Go with twistlocks. If your tools aren't moving around the cord isn't going
to work loose.
As for sitting in a pile of sawdust, well, one end of the cord is in a
socket the same as any other cord so there is no difference in safety there.
The other is near the tool. Mine are typically off the ground so it should
be OK too.
Tools on mobile bases and extension cords are the way to increase your shop
size considerably. Mine is now as big as my garage AND driveway.
> When I redo all my tools 220, I figured I'd need to replace the plugs,
> anyway, so I'll make the tool cords be the necessary length to not need
> extension cords. I'd figured this would be safer and neater.
We have disproved the safety part. Now tell me how it is neater. You still
have a cord going from tool to socket in either case. In the case of
extension cords you can roll them up and put them away if you want to. I do.
It means the kids can't turn on the machine by accident or even on purpose.
Mike Marlow wrote:
> anything you'd want to put in. You can get really carried away with this
> stuff and sometimes you have to step back and say - hey, this is just a
> hobby shop - do I really need this or that or the other thing, or is a
> simpler method a better approach. Personal preference will prevail.
Yeah, that's usually a danger for me. :) But I'm also a bit of a
safety freak. I'm sure the price tags will dictate a lot of my design,
anyway. At the very least, I'd really like to be able to actually *lock
out* the big tools so I don't have to worry about the kids at all.
That'll be very popular with SWMBO.
-BAT
Brett Thomas notes:
>At the very least, I'd really like to be able to actually *lock
>out* the big tools so I don't have to worry about the kids at all.
>That'll be very popular with SWMBO.
Hard wire 'em and use switch boxes with levers that allow a padlock. If that
doesn't keep the kids out, nothing will.
Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken
Brett Thomas notes:
>I also think most shop-made cords
>are probably not as extensively designed and engineered as most
>shop-made wood products. And, finally, if I mess up a bench in the
>shop, it's probably not going to catch on fire. [Pauses briefly to
>imagine screwing up a bench so badly that it bursts into flames].
>
>Anyway, I was just trying to make a lighthearted comment and apparently
>have now offended half of rec.woodworking.
You haven't offended anyone, AFAIK. But, in fact, shop made extension cords are
fairly common, both in 240 and 120 volt configurations, and the parts used
have--usually--already been engineered and tested. It's a matter of assembly,
and that's an individual thing. My hands aren't as able as they were back then,
but I used to rewire military helicopters. Those systems were already
engineered, but for various reasons (including shitty engineering) problems
cropped up and us avionics types had to hunt it down and fix it, often makikng
field changes. So I feel pretty competent to make shop extensions, and I do not
feel my level of wiring skill is at all unusual.
> I'm sure at some point I'll
>make an extension cord myself and it'll work just fine. All I'm saying
>is it'll be six months before I stop looking at it carefully everytime I
>use it - and that wouldn't be true of a UL-listed extension cord.
One good examination should do it. If you assemble the cord of top quality
components and do the work carefully, it will show you all you need to know the
first time you use it.
Charlie Self
"Giving every man a vote has no more made men wise and free than Christianity
has made them good." H. L. Mencken