Marc Spagnuolo - The Money Whisperer!

On 11/6/2012 7:52 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:25:21 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
>>> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
>>> code is on that.
>>
>> Gotta admit I'm not familiar with that particular requirement under any
>> building code that I've built under. But that is not to say that it is
>> not a requirement in one of the many iterations of building codes,
>> particularly local/municipalities additions to same.
>>
>> Logically, and since PT is supposedly saturated with the preservative, I
>> can't imagine that being a requirement, but then again stranger things
>> have happened ...
>
> PT doesn't get all the way inside, it only sinks in 1/4" max from what
> I've seen around here and in CA. Cut ends are entirely untreated and
> prone to rot.

Well actually PT does get in all the way if done properly and if you are
buying the type rated for ground contact. I just helped my son replace
a mailbox post, AKA PT fence post. It was in the ground in excess of 25
years with no extra treatment on the end when I put it in the ground
originally. Dry rot 12" above ground at a dried out knot was the
eventual failure point. We pulled the post out of the ground and the
part that was in the ground was actually in almost new shape. I was
quite surprised.


>
> http://www.awpa.com/references/official.asp I got curious myself.
> Best Practices call for painting drilled holes and cuts.


>
> The pressure treated wood in Whispy's video was the absolute worst
> I've ever seen, if those sills were all PT. Even the green one looked
> as if it had been sprayed lightly with green oil, not PTed.

OK, consider this. I agree it did not look good but here is a very real
possibility. The color may not be coming out true on your monitor or it
may not have been video taped properly. Basically seeing it in person
might reveal a color we do not see.

Next, my house has PT sills but if you cut one it will appear much
greener in the outside than the inside. My sills were retreated with a
pesticide that is green in color to deter termites. This may or may not
explain what is going on in that video.

Seriously, why don't you contact him on the situation and ask about the
details. See if he even noticed or paid attention.





I'be been
> getting fed up with the crap that has been showing up in brown lately.
> Cut it and it shows a brown stain just 3/32 into the wood. I think
> the mill is running them through a bath, not the heat/pressure/vacuum
> that the spec calls for. It's just shoddy work on the mill's part.
> But that doesn't mean the builder can't take minor compensatory
> action, like best practices.

Well remember there is rated for ground contact PT and there is the
other PT stuff.



>
> Looking at the in-process work of that job and the one you posted a
> few years ago, I'd choose -your- crew to do -my- shop. It just looked
> more professional all the way through. Or am I wrong? ;)

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 14:18:50 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>I think it might be safe to assume that different locations do have
>different building codes and that the highly recommended builder in this
>situation probably did things right, especially knowing going in that
>things were going to be filmed for the public to see.

That's what blew me away about that construction. But most, if not
all, states have gone to using the International codes now. Some
states, counties, and cities have added restrictions on top of those
to enhance them.

http://www.reedconstructiondata.com/building-codes/arizona/
AZ uses 2006 IBC, OR uses 2009 IBC, Texas uses 2003 IBC.

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

On 11/4/2012 9:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:52:40 +0000, Wood Butcher
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>
> Let's revise my estimate for his new shop. I'd bet it's closer to
> $400k, with all the extra work, tile roof, stucco, and cement work.
>
>
>> I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>
> I was watching this video and saw the patio supports. They looked all
> wrong to me. What do you make of the mess at 10:28 in the video?
> I see severely cracked boards not fastened to the J-bolt, like they
> were put together the wrong way. It looks like white wood on the sill
> plate, not PT (except for the tiny j-bolted sections 9" long.)
>

Sill plate is PT and you can't see if there are 4 anchor bolts or not.
The splitting is probably quite normal, wet PT wood in Arizona. Non PT
studs not making ground contact is pretty common.

> What's your guess of how much a shop of that size (1800 sq. ft.) and
> quality set him back? Not talking about all the Powermatic and green
> festering tools within, just the finished building. $250K ?


Let's see, someone who is figured out a way of making money doing
something he loves to do and that's wrong? (the Money Whisper title
to the email). I don't know Marc other then through
his podcasts, but he's still around and keeps doing them. Must
mean something.

I suspect that the shop was funded
through his company and therefore a capital expense.

Everyone thought that Norm used too many large power tools, but
people turned in to the show every week. Marc's prowess with
furniture building is growing. The neat thing is that he comes
across like a regular guy. I saw him in person a couple of
weeks ago and he just seemed to be just like one of us.

I wish Marc all the luck. He's understood that the Internet is
where it's at. Not TV. In my area, there is no PBS station out
of 4, that show "Rough Cut" anymore.

MJ

On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
> code is on that.

Gotta admit I'm not familiar with that particular requirement under any
building code that I've built under. But that is not to say that it is
not a requirement in one of the many iterations of building codes,
particularly local/municipalities additions to same.

Logically, and since PT is supposedly saturated with the preservative, I
can't imagine that being a requirement, but then again stranger things
have happened ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:52:40 +0000, Wood Butcher
<[email protected]> wrote:

>It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com

Let's revise my estimate for his new shop. I'd bet it's closer to
$400k, with all the extra work, tile roof, stucco, and cement work.


>I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8

I was watching this video and saw the patio supports. They looked all
wrong to me. What do you make of the mess at 10:28 in the video?
I see severely cracked boards not fastened to the J-bolt, like they
were put together the wrong way. It looks like white wood on the sill
plate, not PT (except for the tiny j-bolted sections 9" long.)

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

"Mike M" wrote:

>Wouldn't think you'd find any Harbor Freight in that shop. ^_^
-------------------------------------------------------------------
He'd need a roll off to handle that junk.

A dumpster just isn't going to cut it.

Lew

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 08:39:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/4/2012 9:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:52:40 +0000, Wood Butcher
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>>> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>>> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>>
>> Let's revise my estimate for his new shop. I'd bet it's closer to
>> $400k, with all the extra work, tile roof, stucco, and cement work.
>>
>>
>>> I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>>
>> I was watching this video and saw the patio supports. They looked all
>> wrong to me. What do you make of the mess at 10:28 in the video?
>> I see severely cracked boards not fastened to the J-bolt, like they
>> were put together the wrong way. It looks like white wood on the sill
>> plate, not PT (except for the tiny j-bolted sections 9" long.)
>>
>
>Sill plate is PT and you can't see if there are 4 anchor bolts or not.

If that's PT, it must be 1/32" deep at most. That entire front left
end is WHITE.


>The splitting is probably quite normal, wet PT wood in Arizona. Non PT
>studs not making ground contact is pretty common.

I've always replaced boards which did that, and I haven't seen many.
99% of the time, they don't split much, if any. 2 splits and it's
replaced, in my projects.

BTW, -wet- PT wood seldom splits, in my experience, but I use screws
much more often than a nailgun.

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 07:59:01 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Besides, macho, rapid fire, nailgun use apparently goes a long way to
>making up for a small penis in some cultures.

Hey, you've got to compensate with something. If a life as a porn star
is not in your future, then it might just as well be working with a
rapid fire, nailgun.

On 11/4/2012 9:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

>> I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>
> I was watching this video and saw the patio supports. They looked all
> wrong to me. What do you make of the mess at 10:28 in the video?
> I see severely cracked boards not fastened to the J-bolt, like they
> were put together the wrong way. It looks like white wood on the sill
> plate, not PT (except for the tiny j-bolted sections 9" long.)

I certainly would not have done it that way, but this is the
construction business and nothing is ever picture perfect for any number
of reasons, so I don't see any need to denigrate the overall work based
on the split end of a tuba four, from too damned many nail gun shots, in
a patio post.

Besides, macho, rapid fire, nailgun use apparently goes a long way to
making up for a small penis in some cultures.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Monday, November 5, 2012 9:23:49 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/4/2012 5:52 PM, Wood Butcher wrote:
>
> > It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>
> > most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>
> > website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>
>
>
> Timing is everything ... just ask Brian G. hereabouts. :)
>
>
>
> Marc was apparently mentored heavily by David J. Marks ... while that
>
> kind of clout behind you, along with an obvious talent in woodworking
>
> and promoting your endeavors in a personable way, won't guarantee
>
> success, there can indeed be "riches in niches", providing you get in on
>
> the ground floor.
>
>
>
> At this point, and IMNSHO, there are just too damn many of these
>
> woodworking podcasts, and they are getting more ho hum as a result (and
>
> I specifically exclude Brian from that remark as the obvious
>
> intelligence he brings to the party sets him apart from the many).


Thank you Swing!



>
>
>
> --
>
> www.eWoodShop.com
>
> Last update: 4/15/2010
>
> KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
>
> http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 16:57:19 -0800, Larry Jaques
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:52:40 +0000, Wood Butcher
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>>most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>>website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>
>Careful. Doesn't that last name look like it might be...Sicilian?
><wink>
>
>
>>I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>>
>>What's your guess of how much a shop of that size (1800 sq. ft.) and
>>quality set him back? Not talking about all the Powermatic and green
>>festering tools within, just the finished building. $250K ?
>
>Yeah, at least a quarter mil.
>
>
>>Wouldn't think you'd find any Harbor Freight in that shop. ^_^
>
>Prolly not. His loss. ;)

Remember he has sponsors. May have a lot to do with why it's set up
for filming.

Mike M

On 11/4/2012 10:31 PM, Mike M wrote:

> Remember he has sponsors. May have a lot to do with why it's set up
> for filming.

Always glad to see someone carry on successfully with a dream.

(While I don't begrudge responding to a call for donations about a year
ago, mainly because I suspect a large part of it went to address medical
issues with their new born son, it would have been nice to receive a
follow-up acknowledgement/thank you of some sort).

That notwithstanding, Marc and Nicole are good, well intentioned folks
and it is nice to see them on the road to making a living in this business.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 11/6/2012 8:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:

> http://www.reedconstructiondata.com/building-codes/arizona/

> AZ uses 2006 IBC, OR uses 2009 IBC, Texas uses 2003 IBC.

That's for state work only, and the state does very little residential
construction ... the local jurisdictions make their own choices.

Currently it's IRC 2006 for most jurisdictions in this part of Texas.

On 11/6/2012 7:52 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:> http://www.awpa.com
/references/official.asp

> http://www.awpa.com/references/official.asp I got curious myself.
> Best Practices call for painting drilled holes and cuts.

You left out a most vital element:

"Exceptions can be made when the wood is a thick sapwood species such as
Southern pine, has very little heartwood, and appears to be well treated."

SYP is 99.999% of Engineering and Architectural spec's for framing in
this neck of the woods.

Even if you can show me a cite requiring painting ends and holes in
treated lumber in an actual residential building code in use in the US,
it still does not mean it is required in all jurisdictions, or that it
is even a "best practice", depending upon the material.

So much for "it's on the Internet and everything on the Internet has to
be true, right"?

And I'm a French model ... Baawhn jyour! :)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 11/8/2012 8:15 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:

>> "Exceptions can be made when the wood is a thick sapwood species such as
>> Southern pine, has very little heartwood, and appears to be well treated."
>
> Exceptions are neither the law nor best practices.

You brought it up, and gave the cite to bolster your point ... so if you
had indeed read it, you would know that the quote above is taken
directly from your cite, and _is_ from the "best practices".

You really DO need to read that Google acquired knowledge in its
entirety, Bubba. ;)

>
>> SYP is 99.999% of Engineering and Architectural spec's for framing in
>> this neck of the woods.
>
> Interesting. What's SYP? Never seen it. ;) Anyway, is it specified
> for sill plates or other possibly wet areas? Seeing the one green
> stud there with the jbolt through it in the video, I doubt it is in
> Aridzona.

Nuff said, Larry ... if you are not familiar the various
types/classifications/grades of construction lumber, it is even more
apparent that you are letting Google do your talking

>> Even if you can show me a cite requiring painting ends and holes in
>> treated lumber in an actual residential building code in use in the US,
>> it still does not mean it is required in all jurisdictions, or that it
>> is even a "best practice", depending upon the material.
>
> OK. If that's your stance, you live with it. We've already determined
> that we need to go with the code, but I never said it was required in
> all jurisdictions nor did I state that it is for all materials. I was
> talking specifically about PT. Stop stirrin' the shit, mon.

Some of us put wisdom/knowledge in the body of the post, you seem to be
relying solely on your taglines. :)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Yea, I'm not a fan, I think his work is just ok.. not great.
I used to think David Marks was pretty good when I could catch him.
I only saw about 5 or 6 of his episodes.

Mark is just well spoken... but mostly too many words.. not enough talent.


On 11/5/2012 9:23 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/4/2012 5:52 PM, Wood Butcher wrote:
>> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>
> Timing is everything ... just ask Brian G. hereabouts. :)
>
> Marc was apparently mentored heavily by David J. Marks ... while that
> kind of clout behind you, along with an obvious talent in woodworking
> and promoting your endeavors in a personable way, won't guarantee
> success, there can indeed be "riches in niches", providing you get in on
> the ground floor.
>
> At this point, and IMNSHO, there are just too damn many of these
> woodworking podcasts, and they are getting more ho hum as a result (and
> I specifically exclude Brian from that remark as the obvious
> intelligence he brings to the party sets him apart from the many).
>

On 11/4/2012 5:52 PM, Wood Butcher wrote:
> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>
> I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>
> What's your guess of how much a shop of that size (1800 sq. ft.) and
> quality set him back? Not talking about all the Powermatic and green
> festering tools within, just the finished building. $250K ?
>
> Wouldn't think you'd find any Harbor Freight in that shop. ^_^
>
>
>
> --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
>


I suspect that a majority of the equipment is donated. The building
could be out of his pocket and or investors pockets. OR his wife's
pockets, She is seen often on one of the major TV news networks. She is
probably more recognized on TC than he is on his blog.

Did you notice the size of his back yard???? And the forever cinder
block fence/wall around the compound???

On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 22:30:18 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/5/2012 8:58 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 08:39:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/4/2012 9:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:52:40 +0000, Wood Butcher
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>>>>>> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>>>>>> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's revise my estimate for his new shop. I'd bet it's closer to
>>>>> $400k, with all the extra work, tile roof, stucco, and cement work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>>>>>
>>>>> I was watching this video and saw the patio supports. They looked all
>>>>> wrong to me. What do you make of the mess at 10:28 in the video?
>>>>> I see severely cracked boards not fastened to the J-bolt, like they
>>>>> were put together the wrong way. It looks like white wood on the sill
>>>>> plate, not PT (except for the tiny j-bolted sections 9" long.)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sill plate is PT and you can't see if there are 4 anchor bolts or not.
>>>
>>> If that's PT, it must be 1/32" deep at most. That entire front left
>>> end is WHITE.
>>>
>>
>> Did you miss the green on the 2x4's with the anchor bolts coming through
>> them?
>
> No. Have you ever cut a PT board? The cut end looks like it was
> soaked in green dye on the outside.


It should look like that if the treatment went all the way inside the
board, very often it does not.





Which brings up another thing. I
> always paint the cut ends of PT with preservative (I can still buy the
> green, but I use brown deck stain with preservatives for the brown)
> but they don't. It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
> code is on that.


If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?



>
>
>>>> The splitting is probably quite normal, wet PT wood in Arizona. Non PT
>>>> studs not making ground contact is pretty common.
>>>
>>> I've always replaced boards which did that, and I haven't seen many.
>>> 99% of the time, they don't split much, if any. 2 splits and it's
>>> replaced, in my projects.
>>
>> Have you ever been to Arizona? That is where the aircraft bone yard is
>> at. No need to rust roof anything because of the dry climate. I think
>> I would be surprised to not see splits after a short while. PT is
>> typically wet when you get it, cut the end off to exposed <5% humidity
>> and you get the splits.
>
> California wasn't _that_ much cooler or drier. Yeah, I lived in
> Phoenix for a year. Brutal.
>
>
>>> BTW, -wet- PT wood seldom splits, in my experience, but I use screws
>>> much more often than a nailgun.
>>
>> Again, in Arizona, little to no humidity, a fresh cut wet board is going
>> to split/check/dry out quick, the multiple nails probably did not help
>> matters. And you live along the west coast in humid conditions?
>
> Nailsplits are not checks. And it's actually drier in the summer up
> here in OR than it was in CA, about 15%. The west coast doesn't have
> the humidity you have down there in the south, even during a
> rainstorm. <g> I do NOT miss any of the humid places I've lived in or
> visited. Phoenix (during the '72 floods), Little Rock, Fort Smith,
> Fort Lauderdale, Love Field (you're flyover country, boy ;), NYC,
> D.C., Philly.

I saw 3 splits, 2 nails and only one split in line with the right side nail.







>
> --
> While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
> is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
> creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
> -- Gilda Radner
>

On 11/6/2012 7:22 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 08:30:44 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> Which brings up another thing. I
>>> always paint the cut ends of PT with preservative (I can still buy the
>>> green, but I use brown deck stain with preservatives for the brown)
>>> but they don't. It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
>>> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
>>> code is on that.
>>
>>
>> If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?
>
> I -know- you're not that dumb, Leon. <sigh>

So you don't know either?

On 11/4/2012 5:52 PM, Wood Butcher wrote:
> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com

Timing is everything ... just ask Brian G. hereabouts. :)

Marc was apparently mentored heavily by David J. Marks ... while that
kind of clout behind you, along with an obvious talent in woodworking
and promoting your endeavors in a personable way, won't guarantee
success, there can indeed be "riches in niches", providing you get in on
the ground floor.

At this point, and IMNSHO, there are just too damn many of these
woodworking podcasts, and they are getting more ho hum as a result (and
I specifically exclude Brian from that remark as the obvious
intelligence he brings to the party sets him apart from the many).

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 11/7/2012 9:31 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:50:17 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> From SYP Association web site...
>>>
>>>> Building Code ...
>>>> ...
>>>> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
>>>> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
>>>> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
>>>> metallic solution is specified.
>>
>> Unfortunately, you've treated the end cuts three times now and the
>> board ends will never dry out.
>
> ... and in California, this has been linked to cancer...
>


Those people out there over do everything.

On 11/7/2012 9:12 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/7/2012 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 11/6/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?
>> ...
>>
>> From SYP Association web site...
>>
>>> Building Code ...
>>> ...
>>> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
>>> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
>>> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
>>> metallic solution is specified.
>
> And, according to AWPA M4, thick sapwood species (SYP) that appear to be
> well treated and contain little or no heartwood do not necessarily
> require field treatment ... practical aspect is that using AWPA U1
> certified PT SYP makes it a non issue for most purposes.
>


IIRC SYP is/was the preferred wood to use in the south because of its
resistance to insects.

On 11/7/2012 8:50 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 11/6/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?
> ...
>
> From SYP Association web site...
>
>> Building Code ...
>> ...
>> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
>> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
>> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
>> metallic solution is specified.
>
> --
>


Not going to believe that unless you post that 3 more times. :~)

Larry,

> PT doesn't get all the way inside, it only sinks in 1/4" max
> from what I've seen around here and in CA. Cut ends are
> entirely untreated and prone to rot.

Ideally the ends and holes should be treated, but in normal use sill plates
shouldn't be exposed to moisture anyway. I install a plastic sill sealer
which not only seals the small gaps between the sill and concrete, but acts
as a moisture barrier as well. Even without the sill sealer, the point of
contact is usually the flat treated surfaces, not the ends. Not to mention,
the sill should be covered and protected by the sheathing and siding anyway
and shouldn't be exposed to moisture in normal use. If moisture does get
in, you're more likely to have rotted siding and/or floor joists.

For vertical applications such as deck posts where the cut end is the
contact point, I like to use metal post bases that elevate the wood off the
foundation an inch or so (and allow good anchoring for the post). I usually
put my cut end on top, so the factory treated end is on the bottom.

> if those sills were all PT. Even the green one looked as if it had
> been sprayed lightly with green oil, not PTed. I'be been getting fed
> up with the crap that has been showing up in brown lately.
> Cut it and it shows a brown stain just 3/32 into the wood.

Pressure treated lumber comes with different exposure ratings, depending on
it's intended use. The color only reflects the chemicals used to treat the
wood.

Around here the brown "Wolmanized" lumber is only surface treated for light
outdoor use on decks and that sort of thing.

Pressure treated wood should be "rated for ground contact" if you're going
to use it for sill plates or burying it in the ground (i.e. fence posts).
You have to read the tags on the lumber to be sure, but generally the
ground contact lumber has evenly spaced holes or perforations where the
treatment is injected deeper into the wood.

Anthony Watson
Mountain Software
www.mountain-software.com

On Monday, November 5, 2012 10:05:57 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 11/5/2012 8:23 AM, Swingman wrote:
>
> > On 11/4/2012 5:52 PM, Wood Butcher wrote:
>
> >> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>
> >> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>
> >> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>
> >
>
> > Timing is everything ... just ask Brian G. hereabouts. :)
>
> >
>
> > Marc was apparently mentored heavily by David J. Marks ... while that
>
> > kind of clout behind you, along with an obvious talent in woodworking
>
> > and promoting your endeavors in a personable way, won't guarantee
>
> > success, there can indeed be "riches in niches", providing you get in on
>
> > the ground floor.
>
> >
>
> > At this point, and IMNSHO, there are just too damn many of these
>
> > woodworking podcasts, and they are getting more ho hum as a result (and
>
> > I specifically exclude Brian from that remark as the obvious
>
> > intelligence he brings to the party sets him apart from the many).
>
> >
>
>
>
> There are a lot of so called experts doing their pod casts, hell many of
>
> them are on TV. Including the easy to forget his name guy that insisted
>
> on calling his SCMS a radial arm saw. Something Johnson IIRC.
>
>
>
> Agreed, Bryan brings a different angle, more of a "Shop Notes" type of
>
> pod cast vs. a relatively new to wood working person trying to teach.


I never thought of my show that way (Shopnotes), but I can see where you're coming from.

I'm open to suggestions if anyone has them. Less talking - more explanation - more project related shows - shave more often - lose a few pounds...

On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:33:38 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/6/2012 7:52 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:25:21 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
>>>> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
>>>> code is on that.
>>>
>>> Gotta admit I'm not familiar with that particular requirement under any
>>> building code that I've built under. But that is not to say that it is
>>> not a requirement in one of the many iterations of building codes,
>>> particularly local/municipalities additions to same.
>>>
>>> Logically, and since PT is supposedly saturated with the preservative, I
>>> can't imagine that being a requirement, but then again stranger things
>>> have happened ...
>>
>> PT doesn't get all the way inside, it only sinks in 1/4" max from what
>> I've seen around here and in CA. Cut ends are entirely untreated and
>> prone to rot.
>
>Well actually PT does get in all the way if done properly and if you are

"If, if, if" isn't that post in the video, is it? Nor is that ground
contact rated. But I've cut into GCR posts and seen white centers,
too, about 3 years ago.



>buying the type rated for ground contact. I just helped my son replace
>a mailbox post, AKA PT fence post. It was in the ground in excess of 25
>years with no extra treatment on the end when I put it in the ground
>originally. Dry rot 12" above ground at a dried out knot was the
>eventual failure point. We pulled the post out of the ground and the
>part that was in the ground was actually in almost new shape. I was
>quite surprised.

Mills used to care! They also used a much better pesticide and
mildewcide than we can now buy.


>>
>> http://www.awpa.com/references/official.asp I got curious myself.
>> Best Practices call for painting drilled holes and cuts.
>
>
>>
>> The pressure treated wood in Whispy's video was the absolute worst
>> I've ever seen, if those sills were all PT. Even the green one looked
>> as if it had been sprayed lightly with green oil, not PTed.
>
>OK, consider this. I agree it did not look good but here is a very real
>possibility. The color may not be coming out true on your monitor or it
>may not have been video taped properly. Basically seeing it in person
>might reveal a color we do not see.
>
>Next, my house has PT sills but if you cut one it will appear much
>greener in the outside than the inside. My sills were retreated with a
>pesticide that is green in color to deter termites. This may or may not
>explain what is going on in that video.

Yeah, that one green studlet just might have been a leftover from a
termite-treated stud. That means the sillplate isn't PT.


>Seriously, why don't you contact him on the situation and ask about the
>details. See if he even noticed or paid attention.

I started this portion of the thread as a statment of notice. I
noticed that the sill plate wasn't treated. What it turned into is a
PITA. I'm done. You go ahead, if he hasn't noticed.


> I'be been
>> getting fed up with the crap that has been showing up in brown lately.
>> Cut it and it shows a brown stain just 3/32 into the wood. I think
>> the mill is running them through a bath, not the heat/pressure/vacuum
>> that the spec calls for. It's just shoddy work on the mill's part.
>> But that doesn't mean the builder can't take minor compensatory
>> action, like best practices.
>
>Well remember there is rated for ground contact PT and there is the
>other PT stuff.

<sigh>

Ask the guys at the mill if their GCR PT is green/brown all the way
through. I'll bet money they tell you "No, it isn't."

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

On 11/5/2012 8:23 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/4/2012 5:52 PM, Wood Butcher wrote:
>> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>
> Timing is everything ... just ask Brian G. hereabouts. :)
>
> Marc was apparently mentored heavily by David J. Marks ... while that
> kind of clout behind you, along with an obvious talent in woodworking
> and promoting your endeavors in a personable way, won't guarantee
> success, there can indeed be "riches in niches", providing you get in on
> the ground floor.
>
> At this point, and IMNSHO, there are just too damn many of these
> woodworking podcasts, and they are getting more ho hum as a result (and
> I specifically exclude Brian from that remark as the obvious
> intelligence he brings to the party sets him apart from the many).
>

There are a lot of so called experts doing their pod casts, hell many of
them are on TV. Including the easy to forget his name guy that insisted
on calling his SCMS a radial arm saw. Something Johnson IIRC.

Agreed, Bryan brings a different angle, more of a "Shop Notes" type of
pod cast vs. a relatively new to wood working person trying to teach.

On 11/5/2012 8:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Monday, November 5, 2012 10:05:57 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 11/5/2012 8:23 AM, Swingman wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/4/2012 5:52 PM, Wood Butcher wrote:
>>
>>>> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>>
>>>> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>>
>>>> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Timing is everything ... just ask Brian G. hereabouts. :)
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Marc was apparently mentored heavily by David J. Marks ... while that
>>
>>> kind of clout behind you, along with an obvious talent in woodworking
>>
>>> and promoting your endeavors in a personable way, won't guarantee
>>
>>> success, there can indeed be "riches in niches", providing you get in on
>>
>>> the ground floor.
>>
>>>
>>
>>> At this point, and IMNSHO, there are just too damn many of these
>>
>>> woodworking podcasts, and they are getting more ho hum as a result (and
>>
>>> I specifically exclude Brian from that remark as the obvious
>>
>>> intelligence he brings to the party sets him apart from the many).
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> There are a lot of so called experts doing their pod casts, hell many of
>>
>> them are on TV. Including the easy to forget his name guy that insisted
>>
>> on calling his SCMS a radial arm saw. Something Johnson IIRC.
>>
>>
>>
>> Agreed, Bryan brings a different angle, more of a "Shop Notes" type of
>>
>> pod cast vs. a relatively new to wood working person trying to teach.
>
>
> I never thought of my show that way (Shopnotes), but I can see where you're coming from.
>
> I'm open to suggestions if anyone has them. Less talking - more explanation - more project related shows - shave more often - lose a few pounds...
>

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:25:21 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
>> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
>> code is on that.
>
>Gotta admit I'm not familiar with that particular requirement under any
>building code that I've built under. But that is not to say that it is
>not a requirement in one of the many iterations of building codes,
>particularly local/municipalities additions to same.
>
>Logically, and since PT is supposedly saturated with the preservative, I
>can't imagine that being a requirement, but then again stranger things
>have happened ...

PT doesn't get all the way inside, it only sinks in 1/4" max from what
I've seen around here and in CA. Cut ends are entirely untreated and
prone to rot.

http://www.awpa.com/references/official.asp I got curious myself.
Best Practices call for painting drilled holes and cuts.


The pressure treated wood in Whispy's video was the absolute worst
I've ever seen, if those sills were all PT. Even the green one looked
as if it had been sprayed lightly with green oil, not PTed. I'be been
getting fed up with the crap that has been showing up in brown lately.
Cut it and it shows a brown stain just 3/32 into the wood. I think
the mill is running them through a bath, not the heat/pressure/vacuum
that the spec calls for. It's just shoddy work on the mill's part.
But that doesn't mean the builder can't take minor compensatory
action, like best practices.

Looking at the in-process work of that job and the one you posted a
few years ago, I'd choose -your- crew to do -my- shop. It just looked
more professional all the way through. Or am I wrong? ;)

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

MJ <[email protected]> whimpered thusly:
>
>> What's your guess of how much a shop of that size (1800 sq. ft.) and
>> quality set him back? Not talking about all the Powermatic and green
>> festering tools within, just the finished building. $250K ?
>
>
>Let's see, someone who is figured out a way of making money doing
>something he loves to do and that's wrong? (the Money Whisper title
>to the email).
>
>//flush//

Save that whine for your ceramics class, pink boy. The only thing
"that's wrong" is your reading comprehension and the fact you don't
know an"email" from a Usenet post.

Let me guess, an Obama voter right?


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

On 11/6/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote:
...

> If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?
...

From SYP Association web site...

> Building Code ...
>...
> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
> metallic solution is specified.

--

On 11/6/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote:
...

> If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?
...

From SYP Association web site...

> Building Code ...
>...
> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
> metallic solution is specified.

--

On 11/6/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote:
...

> If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?
...

From SYP Association web site...

> Building Code ...
>...
> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
> metallic solution is specified.

--

Dave wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:50:17 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>> From SYP Association web site...
>>
>>> Building Code ...
>>> ...
>>> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
>>> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
>>> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
>>> metallic solution is specified.
>
> Unfortunately, you've treated the end cuts three times now and the
> board ends will never dry out.

... and in California, this has been linked to cancer...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 08:30:44 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> Which brings up another thing. I
>> always paint the cut ends of PT with preservative (I can still buy the
>> green, but I use brown deck stain with preservatives for the brown)
>> but they don't. It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
>> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
>> code is on that.
>
>
>If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?

I -know- you're not that dumb, Leon. <sigh>

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 07:59:01 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 11/4/2012 9:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>>
>> I was watching this video and saw the patio supports. They looked all
>> wrong to me. What do you make of the mess at 10:28 in the video?
>> I see severely cracked boards not fastened to the J-bolt, like they
>> were put together the wrong way. It looks like white wood on the sill
>> plate, not PT (except for the tiny j-bolted sections 9" long.)
>
>I certainly would not have done it that way, but this is the
>construction business and nothing is ever picture perfect for any number
>of reasons, so I don't see any need to denigrate the overall work based
>on the split end of a tuba four, from too damned many nail gun shots, in
>a patio post.

I was denigrating the patio -post- construction materials and methods,
not the entire job, suh. The j-bolts are holding down an 8" piece of
wood, nothing more. That surprised me. <shrug>


>Besides, macho, rapid fire, nailgun use apparently goes a long way to
>making up for a small penis in some cultures.

Damnit, coffee everywhere...

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

On 11/7/2012 9:08 AM, HerHusband wrote:
> Ideally the ends and holes should be treated, but in normal use sill plates
> shouldn't be exposed to moisture anyway. I install a plastic sill sealer
> which not only seals the small gaps between the sill and concrete, but acts
> as a moisture barrier as well. Even without the sill sealer, the point of
> contact is usually the flat treated surfaces, not the ends.

Yep ... and "best practices" extend to much more than one issue alone.

Use of a sill seal is _most_ important in sill plates ... and that,
along with using AWPA U1 "certified for the purpose" material makes
cutting painted ends a non issue for most residential framing purposes
where PT is required by code.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 11/7/2012 8:47 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 11/6/2012 8:30 AM, Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?
> ...
>
> From SYP Association web site...
>
>> Building Code ...
>> ...
>> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
>> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
>> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
>> metallic solution is specified.

And, according to AWPA M4, thick sapwood species (SYP) that appear to be
well treated and contain little or no heartwood do not necessarily
require field treatment ... practical aspect is that using AWPA U1
certified PT SYP makes it a non issue for most purposes.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 11/8/2012 8:38 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:33:38 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/2012 7:52 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 11:25:21 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>> It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
>>>>> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
>>>>> code is on that.
>>>>
>>>> Gotta admit I'm not familiar with that particular requirement under any
>>>> building code that I've built under. But that is not to say that it is
>>>> not a requirement in one of the many iterations of building codes,
>>>> particularly local/municipalities additions to same.
>>>>
>>>> Logically, and since PT is supposedly saturated with the preservative, I
>>>> can't imagine that being a requirement, but then again stranger things
>>>> have happened ...
>>>
>>> PT doesn't get all the way inside, it only sinks in 1/4" max from what
>>> I've seen around here and in CA. Cut ends are entirely untreated and
>>> prone to rot.
>>
>> Well actually PT does get in all the way if done properly and if you are
>
> "If, if, if" isn't that post in the video, is it? Nor is that ground
> contact rated. But I've cut into GCR posts and seen white centers,
> too, about 3 years ago.

I have already provided a couple of possible explanations of what you
might be seeing.

>
>
>> buying the type rated for ground contact. I just helped my son replace
>> a mailbox post, AKA PT fence post. It was in the ground in excess of 25
>> years with no extra treatment on the end when I put it in the ground
>> originally. Dry rot 12" above ground at a dried out knot was the
>> eventual failure point. We pulled the post out of the ground and the
>> part that was in the ground was actually in almost new shape. I was
>> quite surprised.
>
> Mills used to care! They also used a much better pesticide and
> mildewcide than we can now buy.

I can still buy the good PT post today. Perhaps you can't where you live.


>
>
>>>
>>> http://www.awpa.com/references/official.asp I got curious myself.
>>> Best Practices call for painting drilled holes and cuts.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> The pressure treated wood in Whispy's video was the absolute worst
>>> I've ever seen, if those sills were all PT. Even the green one looked
>>> as if it had been sprayed lightly with green oil, not PTed.
>>
>> OK, consider this. I agree it did not look good but here is a very real
>> possibility. The color may not be coming out true on your monitor or it
>> may not have been video taped properly. Basically seeing it in person
>> might reveal a color we do not see.
>>
>> Next, my house has PT sills but if you cut one it will appear much
>> greener in the outside than the inside. My sills were retreated with a
>> pesticide that is green in color to deter termites. This may or may not
>> explain what is going on in that video.
>
> Yeah, that one green studlet just might have been a leftover from a
> termite-treated stud. That means the sillplate isn't PT.

PT sill plates were not pretreated, they were sprayed after the fact.



>
>
>> Seriously, why don't you contact him on the situation and ask about the
>> details. See if he even noticed or paid attention.
>
> I started this portion of the thread as a statment of notice. I
> noticed that the sill plate wasn't treated. What it turned into is a
> PITA. I'm done. You go ahead, if he hasn't noticed.

You are apparently the only one that seems to think something is wrong.
>
>
>> I'be been
>>> getting fed up with the crap that has been showing up in brown lately.
>>> Cut it and it shows a brown stain just 3/32 into the wood. I think
>>> the mill is running them through a bath, not the heat/pressure/vacuum
>>> that the spec calls for. It's just shoddy work on the mill's part.
>>> But that doesn't mean the builder can't take minor compensatory
>>> action, like best practices.
>>
>> Well remember there is rated for ground contact PT and there is the
>> other PT stuff.
>
> <sigh>
>
> Ask the guys at the mill if their GCR PT is green/brown all the way
> through. I'll bet money they tell you "No, it isn't."

All you have to do is look at the end of the board.

On 11/5/2012 9:05 AM, Leon wrote:

> There are a lot of so called experts doing their pod casts, hell many of
> them are on TV.

Learning woodworking from most twenty to mid thirty somethings is like
practicing self-taught brain surgery ... good luck with that. ;)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:19:20 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/6/2012 7:22 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 08:30:44 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> Which brings up another thing. I
>>>> always paint the cut ends of PT with preservative (I can still buy the
>>>> green, but I use brown deck stain with preservatives for the brown)
>>>> but they don't. It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
>>>> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
>>>> code is on that.
>>>
>>>
>>> If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?
>>
>> I -know- you're not that dumb, Leon. <sigh>
>
>So you don't know either?

Pfffffft! Crom, of course I know. I stated it in the post to Swingy,
too. Pressure treating is a surface treatment that's supposed to be--
but isn't very--penetrating. Go to that site I linked and read up,
boy. And pay attention next time, huh? I'dve thought you'd learn
from the little cement board talk we had. ;)


--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

On 11/8/2012 8:15 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:27:15 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/2012 8:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.reedconstructiondata.com/building-codes/arizona/
>>
>>> AZ uses 2006 IBC, OR uses 2009 IBC, Texas uses 2003 IBC.
>>
>> That's for state work only, and the state does very little residential
>
> Our state says that everyone works to the same code. Residential has
> their section and Commercial has their section.
>
>
>> construction ... the local jurisdictions make their own choices.
>
> Still, the IRC is International, and that's the point I was making.
> The world is getting away from country-based codes (or lack thereof)
> to make buildings safer worldwide. More strict is OK, less not so.


>
>> Currently it's IRC 2006 for most jurisdictions in this part of Texas.
>>
>> On 11/6/2012 7:52 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:> http://www.awpa.com
>> /references/official.asp
>>
>>> http://www.awpa.com/references/official.asp I got curious myself.
>>> Best Practices call for painting drilled holes and cuts.
>>
>> You left out a most vital element:
>>
>> "Exceptions can be made when the wood is a thick sapwood species such as
>> Southern pine, has very little heartwood, and appears to be well treated."
>
> Exceptions are neither the law nor best practices. It appears that
> our Doug Fir is like your SYP. It lasts as well outside on decks as
> the currently feeble pressure treatment of truly nasty wood they sell
> as PT lumber any more.

So you don't have PT SYP? That is probably your complaint with PT if
you don't. And is fir termite resistant?

>
>
>> SYP is 99.999% of Engineering and Architectural spec's for framing in
>> this neck of the woods.
>
> Interesting. What's SYP? Never seen it. ;) Anyway, is it specified
> for sill plates or other possibly wet areas? Seeing the one green
> stud there with the jbolt through it in the video, I doubt it is in
> Aridzona.

SYP, Southern Yellow Pine. Harder than a few hard woods.

>
>
>> Even if you can show me a cite requiring painting ends and holes in
>> treated lumber in an actual residential building code in use in the US,
>> it still does not mean it is required in all jurisdictions, or that it
>> is even a "best practice", depending upon the material.
>
> OK. If that's your stance, you live with it. We've already determined
> that we need to go with the code, but I never said it was required in
> all jurisdictions nor did I state that it is for all materials. I was
> talking specifically about PT. Stop stirrin' the shit, mon.

I suppose the problem here is that we have much better PT than you. Our
PT is SYP. And again we have different grades of PT where the
penetration goes very deep inside the wood.




>

On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:27:15 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 11/6/2012 8:01 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> http://www.reedconstructiondata.com/building-codes/arizona/
>
>> AZ uses 2006 IBC, OR uses 2009 IBC, Texas uses 2003 IBC.
>
>That's for state work only, and the state does very little residential

Our state says that everyone works to the same code. Residential has
their section and Commercial has their section.


>construction ... the local jurisdictions make their own choices.

Still, the IRC is International, and that's the point I was making.
The world is getting away from country-based codes (or lack thereof)
to make buildings safer worldwide. More strict is OK, less not so.


>Currently it's IRC 2006 for most jurisdictions in this part of Texas.
>
>On 11/6/2012 7:52 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:> http://www.awpa.com
>/references/official.asp
>
> > http://www.awpa.com/references/official.asp I got curious myself.
> > Best Practices call for painting drilled holes and cuts.
>
>You left out a most vital element:
>
>"Exceptions can be made when the wood is a thick sapwood species such as
>Southern pine, has very little heartwood, and appears to be well treated."

Exceptions are neither the law nor best practices. It appears that
our Doug Fir is like your SYP. It lasts as well outside on decks as
the currently feeble pressure treatment of truly nasty wood they sell
as PT lumber any more.


>SYP is 99.999% of Engineering and Architectural spec's for framing in
>this neck of the woods.

Interesting. What's SYP? Never seen it. ;) Anyway, is it specified
for sill plates or other possibly wet areas? Seeing the one green
stud there with the jbolt through it in the video, I doubt it is in
Aridzona.


>Even if you can show me a cite requiring painting ends and holes in
>treated lumber in an actual residential building code in use in the US,
>it still does not mean it is required in all jurisdictions, or that it
>is even a "best practice", depending upon the material.

OK. If that's your stance, you live with it. We've already determined
that we need to go with the code, but I never said it was required in
all jurisdictions nor did I state that it is for all materials. I was
talking specifically about PT. Stop stirrin' the shit, mon.


>So much for "it's on the Internet and everything on the Internet has to
>be true, right"?

Oh, please. <sigh> Those were industry standards sites.


>And I'm a French model ... Baawhn jyour! :)

Breed and license number, please.

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:01:43 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/7/2012 9:31 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Dave wrote:
>>> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:50:17 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> From SYP Association web site...
>>>>
>>>>> Building Code ...
>>>>> ...
>>>>> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
>>>>> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
>>>>> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
>>>>> metallic solution is specified.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, you've treated the end cuts three times now and the
>>> board ends will never dry out.
>>
>> ... and in California, this has been linked to cancer...
>
>Those people out there over do everything.

Yeah, look what the Dems out there have done with illegal immigration,
energy, and deficit spending. Amazing. Kalifornia, well on its way
to becoming a third world nation...

The year before I left there, they had an imported natural gas
pipeline problem. The very next year, they had just decided to build
more electrical generation plants. Nuke was out, geothermal was out,
hydrodynamic was out (all 3 not Green), so what did they decide on?
Right you are, Bonzo. They went with Natural Gas-fired Plants! <thud>

In the interim, GrayOut Davis inflicted the public with the Contract
Against Californians (I forget what it was actually called) ensuring
that power companies were -always- overpaid for their power for the
next decade.

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:52:40 +0000, Wood Butcher
<[email protected]> wrote:

>It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com

Careful. Doesn't that last name look like it might be...Sicilian?
<wink>


>I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>
>What's your guess of how much a shop of that size (1800 sq. ft.) and
>quality set him back? Not talking about all the Powermatic and green
>festering tools within, just the finished building. $250K ?

Yeah, at least a quarter mil.


>Wouldn't think you'd find any Harbor Freight in that shop. ^_^

Prolly not. His loss. ;)

--
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle

On 11/5/2012 8:58 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 08:39:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/4/2012 9:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:52:40 +0000, Wood Butcher
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>>>> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>>>> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>>>
>>> Let's revise my estimate for his new shop. I'd bet it's closer to
>>> $400k, with all the extra work, tile roof, stucco, and cement work.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>>>
>>> I was watching this video and saw the patio supports. They looked all
>>> wrong to me. What do you make of the mess at 10:28 in the video?
>>> I see severely cracked boards not fastened to the J-bolt, like they
>>> were put together the wrong way. It looks like white wood on the sill
>>> plate, not PT (except for the tiny j-bolted sections 9" long.)
>>>
>>
>> Sill plate is PT and you can't see if there are 4 anchor bolts or not.
>
> If that's PT, it must be 1/32" deep at most. That entire front left
> end is WHITE.
>

Did you miss the green on the 2x4's with the anchor bolts coming through
them?



>
>> The splitting is probably quite normal, wet PT wood in Arizona. Non PT
>> studs not making ground contact is pretty common.
>
> I've always replaced boards which did that, and I haven't seen many.
> 99% of the time, they don't split much, if any. 2 splits and it's
> replaced, in my projects.

Have you ever been to Arizona? That is where the aircraft bone yard is
at. No need to rust roof anything because of the dry climate. I think
I would be surprised to not see splits after a short while. PT is
typically wet when you get it, cut the end off to exposed <5% humidity
and you get the splits.






>
> BTW, -wet- PT wood seldom splits, in my experience, but I use screws
> much more often than a nailgun.

Again, in Arizona, little to no humidity, a fresh cut wet board is going
to split/check/dry out quick, the multiple nails probably did not help
matters. And you live along the west coast in humid conditions?


>
> --
> While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
> is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
> creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
> -- Gilda Radner
>

On 11/7/2012 8:27 AM, Swingman wrote:

>
> Even if you can show me a cite requiring painting ends and holes in
> treated lumber in an actual residential building code in use in the US,
> it still does not mean it is required in all jurisdictions, or that it
> is even a "best practice", depending upon the material.

Seems to me that treating the ends would seem logical. BUT Will a
topical treatment of the ends last longer than the wood? What if the
wood shrinks and the stuff simply peals off. It should protect for the
life of the wood to be of any value, not just for the next 5~10 years.


>
> So much for "it's on the Internet and everything on the Internet has to
> be true, right"?
>
> And I'm a French model ... Baawhn jyour! :)
>

WE! WE!

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 22:30:18 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 11/5/2012 8:58 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 08:39:29 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/4/2012 9:14 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 04 Nov 2012 23:52:40 +0000, Wood Butcher
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It appears that talking about woodworking pays pretty well! I'm sure
>>>>> most of you here are familiar with 'The Wood Whisperer'
>>>>> website/podcast/blog: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com
>>>>
>>>> Let's revise my estimate for his new shop. I'd bet it's closer to
>>>> $400k, with all the extra work, tile roof, stucco, and cement work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I just watched his video 'Dream Shop Build'
>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mkwbqObws8
>>>>
>>>> I was watching this video and saw the patio supports. They looked all
>>>> wrong to me. What do you make of the mess at 10:28 in the video?
>>>> I see severely cracked boards not fastened to the J-bolt, like they
>>>> were put together the wrong way. It looks like white wood on the sill
>>>> plate, not PT (except for the tiny j-bolted sections 9" long.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Sill plate is PT and you can't see if there are 4 anchor bolts or not.
>>
>> If that's PT, it must be 1/32" deep at most. That entire front left
>> end is WHITE.
>>
>
>Did you miss the green on the 2x4's with the anchor bolts coming through
>them?

No. Have you ever cut a PT board? The cut end looks like it was
soaked in green dye on the outside. Which brings up another thing. I
always paint the cut ends of PT with preservative (I can still buy the
green, but I use brown deck stain with preservatives for the brown)
but they don't. It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
code is on that.


>>> The splitting is probably quite normal, wet PT wood in Arizona. Non PT
>>> studs not making ground contact is pretty common.
>>
>> I've always replaced boards which did that, and I haven't seen many.
>> 99% of the time, they don't split much, if any. 2 splits and it's
>> replaced, in my projects.
>
>Have you ever been to Arizona? That is where the aircraft bone yard is
>at. No need to rust roof anything because of the dry climate. I think
>I would be surprised to not see splits after a short while. PT is
>typically wet when you get it, cut the end off to exposed <5% humidity
>and you get the splits.

California wasn't _that_ much cooler or drier. Yeah, I lived in
Phoenix for a year. Brutal.


>> BTW, -wet- PT wood seldom splits, in my experience, but I use screws
>> much more often than a nailgun.
>
>Again, in Arizona, little to no humidity, a fresh cut wet board is going
>to split/check/dry out quick, the multiple nails probably did not help
>matters. And you live along the west coast in humid conditions?

Nailsplits are not checks. And it's actually drier in the summer up
here in OR than it was in CA, about 15%. The west coast doesn't have
the humidity you have down there in the south, even during a
rainstorm. <g> I do NOT miss any of the humid places I've lived in or
visited. Phoenix (during the '72 floods), Little Rock, Fort Smith,
Fort Lauderdale, Love Field (you're flyover country, boy ;), NYC,
D.C., Philly.

--
While we have the gift of life, it seems to me that only tragedy
is to allow part of us to die - whether it is our spirit, our
creativity, or our glorious uniqueness.
-- Gilda Radner

On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:50:17 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> From SYP Association web site...
>
>> Building Code ...
>>...
>> Wood end-cut, notched, or bored at the jobsite
>> shall be field-treated in accordance with AWPA Standard M4.
>> Application of copper napthenate solution having a minimum 2%
>> metallic solution is specified.

Unfortunately, you've treated the end cuts three times now and the
board ends will never dry out.

On 11/6/2012 11:25 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>> It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
>> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
>> code is on that.
>
> Gotta admit I'm not familiar with that particular requirement under any
> building code that I've built under. But that is not to say that it is
> not a requirement in one of the many iterations of building codes,
> particularly local/municipalities additions to same.
>
> Logically, and since PT is supposedly saturated with the preservative, I
> can't imagine that being a requirement, but then again stranger things
> have happened ...
>


I think it might be safe to assume that different locations do have
different building codes and that the highly recommended builder in this
situation probably did things right, especially knowing going in that
things were going to be filmed for the public to see.

On 11/8/2012 7:41 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2012 08:19:20 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 11/6/2012 7:22 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>> On Tue, 06 Nov 2012 08:30:44 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/6/2012 8:05 AM, Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>> Which brings up another thing. I
>>>>> always paint the cut ends of PT with preservative (I can still buy the
>>>>> green, but I use brown deck stain with preservatives for the brown)
>>>>> but they don't. It irks me, because if you need a treated board, all
>>>>> surfaces need to be treated, just like cement board. Ask Swingy what
>>>>> code is on that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If the board is properly treated, why treat the fresh cut ends?
>>>
>>> I -know- you're not that dumb, Leon. <sigh>
>>
>> So you don't know either?
>
> Pfffffft! Crom, of course I know. I stated it in the post to Swingy,
> too. Pressure treating is a surface treatment that's supposed to be--
> but isn't very--penetrating. Go to that site I linked and read up,
> boy. And pay attention next time, huh? I'dve thought you'd learn
> from the little cement board talk we had. ;)

You might want to do a little more research.