Looking For Oscillating Tool Recommendations

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 19:49:57 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 9/20/2015 5:14 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:07:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/20/2015 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>>>>>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>>>>>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>>>>>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>>>>>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>>>>> the ship!
>>>>
>>>> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
>>>> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think cordless makes a lot of sense for tools with regular use and
>>> certainly they are more convenient.
>>>
>>> I prefer corded for a tool that does not see a lot of action.
>>
>> Why? If you're worried about battery self-discharge, LiIon all but
>> solved that problem. They have a half-life of something like two
>> years. Multiple tools using the same batteries also mitigate any such
>> problems.
>>>
>>> In the mid 80's my wife gave me a right angle 1/4" reversible Makita
>>> cordless drill. It did not see a lot of use and therefore after it was
>>> 3~4 years old the battery always had to be recharged before use.
>>
>> I probably have the same drill. It wasn't a huge issue because I also
>> had a drill and 3-3/8" circular saw using the same batteries. The
>> batteries didn't last all that long and were expensive, so replaced
>> the drill. If I need the right-angle drill or cut off saw, I'll need
>> to buy new batteries anyway. ...and the next time. ...and the next.
>>
>>> The tool that gets about the same amount of use is my corded Fein
>>> Multimaster. I'm certainly glad it is corded and only for that reason.
>>
>> But LiIon batteries don't have a rapid discharge. Even if you don't
>> use it for a year, it'll still have something more than half charge.
>
>Understood but I have a Bosch impact that came with 2 Li-Ion batteries.
> Probably 7 years old. Both batteries were toast a couple of months
>ago so I bought 1 OEM replacement. I got the Bosch when I already had a
>Makita impact that was on my second set of batteries.
>anyway I seldom use the Bosch, 18 volt. I preferred the 12 volt Makita.
>Some how or another I must have won the Bosch as there was no explanation.

I have all three Bosch 12V tools (drill, driver, and Impactor, though
no batteries came with the drivers) and picked up five or six more,
cheap, when the BORG stopped selling Bosch. One or two died very
early so that leaves eight or so. It's been at least four years, so
they've held up well.

>The Festool Li-Ion batteries are still going strong and they are almost
>4 years old.

LiIon batteries last a long time. They're more limited by charge
cycles than time.
>
>>>
>>> Now let me backpedal.
>>>
>>> I build a lot. I use my Domino extensively. I use the Domino to
>>> reinforce the rabbit joints on drawers with a minimum of 2 on each
>>> corner of each drawer. Day before yesterday I plunge cut 48 mortises
>>> after gluing up the drawers to reinforce the joints. The plunge with
>>> the 5mm bit is limited to less than the length of the 5mm domino tenon.
>>>
>>> If I do not shorten the tenons before hammering them in they have to be
>>> cut after the fact.
>>>
>>> Doing this with the TS is possible but you get tenons ends flying out
>>> like bullets all over the shop. You have limited capacity of doing this
>>> with the BS. This leaves cutting with a Japanese saw which takes way
>>> too long. You can sand them down but shortening half an inch of tenon
>>> tends to tear up the sand paper quickly.
>>>
>>> The solution that I have repeated is to use my 12" disk sander to
>>> quickly shorten the length of the tenons before hammering them in to the
>>> mortises. Still this is imprecise and you often end up with a few that
>>> stand tall and I tear my disk sand paper.
>>>
>>> Given all the steps start to finish to reinforce drawer joints with
>>> Domino tenons I was considering making all future drawers with box
>>> joints or DT's. These are more trouble than plain old rabbit joints but
>>> probably faster and less trouble than using the Domino tenons, consider
>>> all the steps involved.
>>>
>>> Then, day before yesterday I thought about my Fein multimeter.
>>> On this time with the 48 tenons on the 6 drawers I put them in full
>>> length and there fore eliminated having to shorten them on the disk
>>> sander and trimmed all of them just a hair proud of flush after
>>> hammering them in.
>>>
>>> Daaaaamn, 2~3 seconds per tenon and very little cleanup sanding at all.
>>>
>>> It only took me about 115 drawers to figure that out. But who is counting?
>>>
>>> Rambling on, maybe I'll sell my Fein Multimaster and get a cordless one
>>> with the tool-less feature. Naaaaaaa. ;~)
>>
>> ;-)
>>
>> For that use, I probably wouldn't mind a corded tool. All of the work
>> is being done in the shop and there is already plenty of power around.
>> Multi-tools tend to be used all over the house, though. It's nice to
>> not have to haul extension cords around. For many jobs, hauling
>> everything out and putting it away takes half the time.
>>
>> Last week I was putting fold-down extensions on my down spouts. I
>> needed to trim about 10" off the downspouts, add the splash blocks,
>> and rivet the mess back together. Hauling an extension cord around
>> the house would have been a PITA. I have cordless drills for this
>> reason, the cordless multi-tool is a perfect match. I also have a
>> small circular saw, for the same reason. I'll probably get a cordless
>> saber or reciprocating saw one of these days, too.
>>>
>>> The Multimaster has certainly been a life saver and that can pay for the
>>> tool with only a few times of use but now I will no longer be sanding
>>> those tenons to length.
>>>
>> How about cutting them to length before use?
>>
>
>Tried that too, but the TS shot those too and I was not comfortable with
>repeated cutting something about 1 1/4" long and 3/16 thick and 3/4 wide
>down to 5/8" in length and that would be a set up for repeated cuts and
>really in the long run not IMHO faster than 2~3 seconds it takes to cut
>them with the Fein after being glued in place.

That's what they invented these things called "jigs" for. ;-) I'd be
worried about slipping and gouging the work piece all to hell.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>
> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So even
> though it probably will, I would like this thread to not quickly
> escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over again too
> many times already, HF multitool debate. :-)
> After probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but
> I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>
> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it. Plus,
> it's so fricken loud!!!
> 2. The new oscillating tools I've seen have a quick release and that's
> very appealing to me.
> 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After
> using the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine
> if this is the case.
>
> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions about
> oscillating tools from those who have actually used them.
> I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be convinced.
>
> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters or
> already accept all blades.
>
> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
> with those.
>


Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 9/19/15 11:52 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>
>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So
>> even though it probably will, I would like this thread to not
>> quickly escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over
>> again too many times already, HF multitool debate. :-) After
>> probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but I'm
>> looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>>
>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it.
>> Plus, it's so fricken loud!!! 2. The new oscillating tools I've seen
>> have a quick release and that's very appealing to me. 3. I'm hoping
>> the brand name tools actually perform better. After using the HF for
>> so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine if this is the
>> case.
>>
>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions
>> about oscillating tools from those who have actually used them. I'm
>> looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
>> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be
>> convinced.
>>
>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters or
>> already accept all blades.
>>
>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
>> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an
>> oscillating tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so
>> I'm sticking with those.
>>
>
> On a whim, I bought the Fein 350Q for $200 and WOW.... just wow.
> As for my criteria...
> It's remarkably quiet for an oscillating multitool.
> No discernible heat whatsoever.
> The quick release is a thing of beauty. So easy and fast, it is no
> longer even a second thought whether to reposition or change blades. I
> just do it. It's about as fast as changing hand position.
> As for performing better than the HF. Well, it costs 15x as much and
> easily performs 15x as well, as I always suspected. I'm still just as
> much an advocate of the HF because it does very well and for the price,
> it does a whole lot better than it should. But I'm very happy I finally
> bought a *real* multitool. But the Fein cut much faster, much cleaner,
> and is much better to use.
>
> Pleasant surprises about the Fein:
> SOFT Start! I had no idea it did this and wouldn't want it any other
> way. There are so many advantages to this.
> Virtually vibration free! My hands used to get a bit numb with the HF
> after continued use. With the Fein, you almost don't know it's on and
> it hardly moves if you set it down while running.
> I mentioned it's much quieter.
> The 17ft. cord! One of you mention not liking it and Karl mentioned
> liking it... well, I'm with Karl in this one. I always needed to have
> an extension cord with the HF but I don't think I'll ever use one with
> the Fein. It's a very high quality, braided sheathed, cable so I don't
> see it getting kinked up any time soon.
> It's smaller around than the others I looked at. Not a whole lot, but
> it's a lot when you hold it and have to maneuver it. I don't have big
> gorilla hands, so it's an advantage for me when using it.
> It takes Dremel and Ridgid blades (and likely others). Using only their
> own blades was a big issue when the Fein first stormed the market, but
> things seemed to have changed and blades are more universal.
>
> I'm actually still thinking about the cordless Bosch, but I needed to
> use this today and no local stores carry the Bosch. But if I end up
> keeping the Fein (or returning it and getting the deal at coastaltool),
> I don't think I'll ever look back.
>


Soooo, you like it? :-)
FWIW. The blades for that thing 7-8 years ago were a minimum of a about
$37.00 each.
Now that Fein finally has some competition there are a lot of options for
blades.
You might want to also look at Imperial for replacement blades, I
understand that they are good and make blades for most any multi tool
brand. I have not yet tried them, I wonder if anyone here has ant
experience with them.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 11:32:27 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 9/20/15 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 11:02:32 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/20/15 8:31 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened
>>>>> up, but we'll see if I can though this with any actual
>>>>> information. :-D
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is
>>>>> well documented in here that I have been its staunchest
>>>>> defender. So even though it probably will, I would like this
>>>>> thread to not quickly escalate into the same, tired, old,
>>>>> rehashed over and over again too many times already, HF
>>>>> multitool debate. :-) After probably eight years with the
>>>>> thing, it's still going strong, but I'm looking to upgrade for
>>>>> a few reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on
>>>>> it. Plus, it's so fricken loud!!! 2. The new oscillating
>>>>> tools I've seen have a quick release and that's very appealing
>>>>> to me. 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform
>>>>> better. After using the HF for so long, I think I will able to
>>>>> very quickly determine if this is the case.
>>>>>
>>>>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like
>>>>> opinions about oscillating tools from those who have actually
>>>>> used them. I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool
>>>>> blade release, and probably NOT battery operated, although I
>>>>> might be able to be convinced.
>>>>>
>>>>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have
>>>>> adapters or already accept all blades.
>>>>>
>>>>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a
>>>>> close second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on
>>>>> an oscillating tool. All the other brands have options under
>>>>> $150, so I'm sticking with those.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I
>>>> have a Fein and truly wish it had the quick release and notched
>>>> index blade setup. I find that the easier the tool is to setup
>>>> the more I use it. Mine is the older design that requires the odd
>>>> hex wrench to replace attachments and ir adjust attachments.
>>>> Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm
>>> driving the ship!
>>
>> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
>> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its
>> weakness.
>>
>
>Now you've done it. Crap, that thing uses the batteries I already have
>for my Bosch drill. BTW, the new ones have a tool-less, instant change
>mechanism.

I didn't know that. Thanks! I guess there is nothing that says that
a tool can't be upgraded in five years.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 10:49:04 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 9/19/15 11:11 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:52:05 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up,
>>> but we'll see if I can though this with any actual information.
>>> :-D
>>>
>>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>>> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So
>>> even though it probably will, I would like this thread to not
>>> quickly escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over
>>> again too many times already, HF multitool debate. :-) After
>>> probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but
>>> I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>>>
>>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it.
>>> Plus, it's so fricken loud!!! 2. The new oscillating tools I've
>>> seen have a quick release and that's very appealing to me. 3. I'm
>>> hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After using
>>> the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine
>>> if this is the case.
>>>
>>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions
>>> about oscillating tools from those who have actually used them. I'm
>>> looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
>>> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be
>>> convinced.
>>>
>>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters
>>> or already accept all blades.
>>>
>>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a
>>> close second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an
>>> oscillating tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so
>>> I'm sticking with those.
>>
>>
>> Of course, nothing but Festool! ;-)
>>
>> Now that we got that out of the way... ;-) I own a Dremel corded and
>> a Bosch cordless oscillating saw. Of the two, I use the cordless one
>> at least 10:1 over the corded saw.
>>
>> I looked at the Fein a year or so ago (they had a demo at Woodcraft)
>> and was impressed. The price wasn't all that bad, anymore, either.
>> If I were buying again, I'd probably buy the Fein instead of the
>> Dremmel but I'd still be using the Bosch ten times as often as the
>> Fein.
>>

>How fast do the batteries charge on the Bosch and is there a notable
>difference in power between the corded and cordless?

Less than an hour. I have a bunch of batteries (I also have the 12V
drill, driver, and Impactor) so that's never a problem for me (so I
don't watch closely). I'm not a contractor so I don't use it 8hrs a
day, so recharging isn't a major concern. I rarely have to change
batteries in the middle of any job with any of my tools.

I don't notice a power difference between the Bosch and Dremmel. The
Fein I tried (during a store demo) was a little easier on the hands, I
think, though.

krw <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:35:25 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/20/2015 8:58 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 19:49:57 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/20/2015 5:14 PM, krw wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:07:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 9/20/2015 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>>>>>>>>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>>>>>>>>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>>>>>>>>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>>>>>>>>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>>>>>>>> the ship!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
>>>>>>> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think cordless makes a lot of sense for tools with regular use and
>>>>>> certainly they are more convenient.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I prefer corded for a tool that does not see a lot of action.
>>>>>
>>>>> Why? If you're worried about battery self-discharge, LiIon all but
>>>>> solved that problem. They have a half-life of something like two
>>>>> years. Multiple tools using the same batteries also mitigate any such
>>>>> problems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the mid 80's my wife gave me a right angle 1/4" reversible Makita
>>>>>> cordless drill. It did not see a lot of use and therefore after it was
>>>>>> 3~4 years old the battery always had to be recharged before use.
>>>>>
>>>>> I probably have the same drill. It wasn't a huge issue because I also
>>>>> had a drill and 3-3/8" circular saw using the same batteries. The
>>>>> batteries didn't last all that long and were expensive, so replaced
>>>>> the drill. If I need the right-angle drill or cut off saw, I'll need
>>>>> to buy new batteries anyway. ...and the next time. ...and the next.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The tool that gets about the same amount of use is my corded Fein
>>>>>> Multimaster. I'm certainly glad it is corded and only for that reason.
>>>>>
>>>>> But LiIon batteries don't have a rapid discharge. Even if you don't
>>>>> use it for a year, it'll still have something more than half charge.
>>>>
>>>> Understood but I have a Bosch impact that came with 2 Li-Ion batteries.
>>>> Probably 7 years old. Both batteries were toast a couple of months
>>>> ago so I bought 1 OEM replacement. I got the Bosch when I already had a
>>>> Makita impact that was on my second set of batteries.
>>>> anyway I seldom use the Bosch, 18 volt. I preferred the 12 volt Makita.
>>>> Some how or another I must have won the Bosch as there was no explanation.
>>>
>>> I have all three Bosch 12V tools (drill, driver, and Impactor, though
>>> no batteries came with the drivers) and picked up five or six more,
>>> cheap, when the BORG stopped selling Bosch. One or two died very
>>> early so that leaves eight or so. It's been at least four years, so
>>> they've held up well.
>>>
>>>> The Festool Li-Ion batteries are still going strong and they are almost
>>>> 4 years old.
>>>
>>> LiIon batteries last a long time. They're more limited by charge
>>> cycles than time.
>>
>> Tell that to the 5~7 charge cycles each of those batteries went through.
>
> LiIon or NiCd?
>
>> Remember, I seldom used that impact compared to the Makita. I will
>> give you that Li-Ion batteries do tend to out last others but they do
>> have a limited life regardless of how many charge cycles they get.
>
> Everything has a lifetime but LiIon batteries should last a decade (or
> ~500-1000 cycles). There are early failures in any battery and LiIons
> are particularly prone, due to the protection circuitry not used for
> other battery chemistries.
>
>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now let me backpedal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I build a lot. I use my Domino extensively. I use the Domino to
>>>>>> reinforce the rabbit joints on drawers with a minimum of 2 on each
>>>>>> corner of each drawer. Day before yesterday I plunge cut 48 mortises
>>>>>> after gluing up the drawers to reinforce the joints. The plunge with
>>>>>> the 5mm bit is limited to less than the length of the 5mm domino tenon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I do not shorten the tenons before hammering them in they have to be
>>>>>> cut after the fact.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doing this with the TS is possible but you get tenons ends flying out
>>>>>> like bullets all over the shop. You have limited capacity of doing this
>>>>>> with the BS. This leaves cutting with a Japanese saw which takes way
>>>>>> too long. You can sand them down but shortening half an inch of tenon
>>>>>> tends to tear up the sand paper quickly.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The solution that I have repeated is to use my 12" disk sander to
>>>>>> quickly shorten the length of the tenons before hammering them in to the
>>>>>> mortises. Still this is imprecise and you often end up with a few that
>>>>>> stand tall and I tear my disk sand paper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given all the steps start to finish to reinforce drawer joints with
>>>>>> Domino tenons I was considering making all future drawers with box
>>>>>> joints or DT's. These are more trouble than plain old rabbit joints but
>>>>>> probably faster and less trouble than using the Domino tenons, consider
>>>>>> all the steps involved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then, day before yesterday I thought about my Fein multimeter.
>>>>>> On this time with the 48 tenons on the 6 drawers I put them in full
>>>>>> length and there fore eliminated having to shorten them on the disk
>>>>>> sander and trimmed all of them just a hair proud of flush after
>>>>>> hammering them in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daaaaamn, 2~3 seconds per tenon and very little cleanup sanding at all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It only took me about 115 drawers to figure that out. But who is counting?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rambling on, maybe I'll sell my Fein Multimaster and get a cordless one
>>>>>> with the tool-less feature. Naaaaaaa. ;~)
>>>>>
>>>>> ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>> For that use, I probably wouldn't mind a corded tool. All of the work
>>>>> is being done in the shop and there is already plenty of power around.
>>>>> Multi-tools tend to be used all over the house, though. It's nice to
>>>>> not have to haul extension cords around. For many jobs, hauling
>>>>> everything out and putting it away takes half the time.
>>>>>
>>>>> Last week I was putting fold-down extensions on my down spouts. I
>>>>> needed to trim about 10" off the downspouts, add the splash blocks,
>>>>> and rivet the mess back together. Hauling an extension cord around
>>>>> the house would have been a PITA. I have cordless drills for this
>>>>> reason, the cordless multi-tool is a perfect match. I also have a
>>>>> small circular saw, for the same reason. I'll probably get a cordless
>>>>> saber or reciprocating saw one of these days, too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Multimaster has certainly been a life saver and that can pay for the
>>>>>> tool with only a few times of use but now I will no longer be sanding
>>>>>> those tenons to length.
>>>>>>
>>>>> How about cutting them to length before use?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tried that too, but the TS shot those too and I was not comfortable with
>>>> repeated cutting something about 1 1/4" long and 3/16 thick and 3/4 wide
>>>> down to 5/8" in length and that would be a set up for repeated cuts and
>>>> really in the long run not IMHO faster than 2~3 seconds it takes to cut
>>>> them with the Fein after being glued in place.
>>>
>>> That's what they invented these things called "jigs" for. ;-) I'd be
>>> worried about slipping and gouging the work piece all to hell.
>>
>> Noooo no no. The blade is offset from the attachment point so you can
>> lay the bottom of the blade flat on the work. The "wood only" blades
>> teeth have very little set so there is no issue with damaging the
>> surface. Piece of cake.
>>
> The blade doesn't scratch the work?

No, not if you hold the blade flat on the work. It all, the joints, still
needs to be sanded afterwards, I just do that last.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 11:02:32 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 9/20/15 8:31 AM, Leon wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>>
>>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>>> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So even
>>> though it probably will, I would like this thread to not quickly
>>> escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over again too
>>> many times already, HF multitool debate. :-)
>>> After probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but
>>> I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>>>
>>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it. Plus,
>>> it's so fricken loud!!!
>>> 2. The new oscillating tools I've seen have a quick release and that's
>>> very appealing to me.
>>> 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After
>>> using the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine
>>> if this is the case.
>>>
>>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions about
>>> oscillating tools from those who have actually used them.
>>> I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
>>> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be convinced.
>>>
>>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters or
>>> already accept all blades.
>>>
>>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
>>> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
>>> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
>>> with those.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>
>
>I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>the ship!

Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>
> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So even
> though it probably will, I would like this thread to not quickly
> escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over again too
> many times already, HF multitool debate. :-)
> After probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong,
> but I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>
> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it.
> Plus, it's so fricken loud!!!
> 2. The new oscillating tools I've seen have a quick release and
> that's very appealing to me.
> 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After
> using the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly
> determine if this is the case.
>
> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions
> about oscillating tools from those who have actually used them.
> I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be
> convinced.
>
> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters or
> already accept all blades.
>
> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
> with those.
>
>

I have the Bosch, asked about it here a couple years ago. It doesn't
have the non-tool blade release, but uses a hex wrench and socket cap
screw. It is MUCH quieter and vibrates the body of the tool MUCH less
than the HF version. I can't speak to cooler or faster, as I usually
don't have either tool on long enough to find out.

I wonder if one of your local stores would be willing to let you take
the tool out of the box and turn it on. Even without cutting, you'll
notice a big difference.

I still have the HF tool, it's down at the club and sometimes gets used
more than the Bosch that replaced it.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:52:05 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>
>I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So even
>though it probably will, I would like this thread to not quickly
>escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over again too
>many times already, HF multitool debate. :-)
>After probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but
>I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>
>1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it. Plus,
>it's so fricken loud!!!
>2. The new oscillating tools I've seen have a quick release and that's
>very appealing to me.
>3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After
>using the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine
>if this is the case.
>
>So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions about
>oscillating tools from those who have actually used them.
>I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
>probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be convinced.
>
>Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters or
>already accept all blades.
>
>LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
>second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
>tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
>with those.


Of course, nothing but Festool! ;-)

Now that we got that out of the way... ;-)
I own a Dremel corded and a Bosch cordless oscillating saw. Of the
two, I use the cordless one at least 10:1 over the corded saw.

I looked at the Fein a year or so ago (they had a demo at Woodcraft)
and was impressed. The price wasn't all that bad, anymore, either. If
I were buying again, I'd probably buy the Fein instead of the Dremmel
but I'd still be using the Bosch ten times as often as the Fein.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 11:31:49 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 9/20/2015 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 11:02:32 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/20/15 8:31 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>>>>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>>>>
>>>>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>
>
>[snip]
>
>>>>
>>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>>>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>>>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>>>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>>>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>>> the ship!
>>
>> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
>> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.
>
>Weakness as in quick change of blade or have you run into another
>problem with it?

Just the blade change. It's hex key and there is no place on the tool
to store it. It's just a minor PITA.
>
>Admittedly, I'd probably like a quick change option on it but as someone
>else mentioned in passing, "what you make on bananas, you lose on
>grapes" (or something very similar). Sometimes the quick change
>artistry leaves much to be desired in terms of strength and durability.
> At least when I torque down the blade on my Bosch, I know it's going
>to hold solid.
>
Sure. The other issue is the blades themselves. Some are not
compatible with the Bosch, though that doesn't seem to be as much of a
problem any more.

>

On 9/20/2015 7:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> My bad (sorry). I thought you were talking about an *oscillating
>> sander*. I have a variable speed "oscillating tool" from Menards
>> which cost me about $35, I think. I have found it handy in trimming
>> shims and the bottoms of door frames.
>
> Just keep using it Bill - you will find that the list of useful purposes for
> these tools just magically keeps growing. Makes ya wonder why it took so
> long for them to develop it.

Two things happen to us wood butchers in the course of a lifetime:

We stumble on to tools like the multi-tool and once we pick one up we
wonder how we ever survived without it.

The other thing is we DON'T pick up specialized tools but are lazy and
figure out a way (outside the box) to use what we DO have.

Although I had the multi-tool by this point, even that was too slow for
me when I needed to undercut a dozen or so door jambs while installing
new hardwood flooring.

They make a nice saw especially designed for this purpose but I have a
very nice Porter-Cable biscuit cutter. Set to 90 degrees, set on a shim
to raise the top of the blade to where it needed to be and each jamb
took about a minute. That carbide blade doing the plunge cuts was so
sweet, the jamb and trim didn't even need a touch up of stain.

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:35:25 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 9/20/2015 8:58 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 19:49:57 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 9/20/2015 5:14 PM, krw wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:07:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 9/20/2015 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>>>>>>>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>>>>>>>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>>>>>>>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>>>>>>>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>>>>>>> the ship!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
>>>>>> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think cordless makes a lot of sense for tools with regular use and
>>>>> certainly they are more convenient.
>>>>>
>>>>> I prefer corded for a tool that does not see a lot of action.
>>>>
>>>> Why? If you're worried about battery self-discharge, LiIon all but
>>>> solved that problem. They have a half-life of something like two
>>>> years. Multiple tools using the same batteries also mitigate any such
>>>> problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the mid 80's my wife gave me a right angle 1/4" reversible Makita
>>>>> cordless drill. It did not see a lot of use and therefore after it was
>>>>> 3~4 years old the battery always had to be recharged before use.
>>>>
>>>> I probably have the same drill. It wasn't a huge issue because I also
>>>> had a drill and 3-3/8" circular saw using the same batteries. The
>>>> batteries didn't last all that long and were expensive, so replaced
>>>> the drill. If I need the right-angle drill or cut off saw, I'll need
>>>> to buy new batteries anyway. ...and the next time. ...and the next.
>>>>
>>>>> The tool that gets about the same amount of use is my corded Fein
>>>>> Multimaster. I'm certainly glad it is corded and only for that reason.
>>>>
>>>> But LiIon batteries don't have a rapid discharge. Even if you don't
>>>> use it for a year, it'll still have something more than half charge.
>>>
>>> Understood but I have a Bosch impact that came with 2 Li-Ion batteries.
>>> Probably 7 years old. Both batteries were toast a couple of months
>>> ago so I bought 1 OEM replacement. I got the Bosch when I already had a
>>> Makita impact that was on my second set of batteries.
>>> anyway I seldom use the Bosch, 18 volt. I preferred the 12 volt Makita.
>>> Some how or another I must have won the Bosch as there was no explanation.
>>
>> I have all three Bosch 12V tools (drill, driver, and Impactor, though
>> no batteries came with the drivers) and picked up five or six more,
>> cheap, when the BORG stopped selling Bosch. One or two died very
>> early so that leaves eight or so. It's been at least four years, so
>> they've held up well.
>>
>>> The Festool Li-Ion batteries are still going strong and they are almost
>>> 4 years old.
>>
>> LiIon batteries last a long time. They're more limited by charge
>> cycles than time.
>
>Tell that to the 5~7 charge cycles each of those batteries went through.

LiIon or NiCd?

> Remember, I seldom used that impact compared to the Makita. I will
>give you that Li-Ion batteries do tend to out last others but they do
>have a limited life regardless of how many charge cycles they get.

Everything has a lifetime but LiIon batteries should last a decade (or
~500-1000 cycles). There are early failures in any battery and LiIons
are particularly prone, due to the protection circuitry not used for
other battery chemistries.


>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now let me backpedal.
>>>>>
>>>>> I build a lot. I use my Domino extensively. I use the Domino to
>>>>> reinforce the rabbit joints on drawers with a minimum of 2 on each
>>>>> corner of each drawer. Day before yesterday I plunge cut 48 mortises
>>>>> after gluing up the drawers to reinforce the joints. The plunge with
>>>>> the 5mm bit is limited to less than the length of the 5mm domino tenon.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I do not shorten the tenons before hammering them in they have to be
>>>>> cut after the fact.
>>>>>
>>>>> Doing this with the TS is possible but you get tenons ends flying out
>>>>> like bullets all over the shop. You have limited capacity of doing this
>>>>> with the BS. This leaves cutting with a Japanese saw which takes way
>>>>> too long. You can sand them down but shortening half an inch of tenon
>>>>> tends to tear up the sand paper quickly.
>>>>>
>>>>> The solution that I have repeated is to use my 12" disk sander to
>>>>> quickly shorten the length of the tenons before hammering them in to the
>>>>> mortises. Still this is imprecise and you often end up with a few that
>>>>> stand tall and I tear my disk sand paper.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given all the steps start to finish to reinforce drawer joints with
>>>>> Domino tenons I was considering making all future drawers with box
>>>>> joints or DT's. These are more trouble than plain old rabbit joints but
>>>>> probably faster and less trouble than using the Domino tenons, consider
>>>>> all the steps involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then, day before yesterday I thought about my Fein multimeter.
>>>>> On this time with the 48 tenons on the 6 drawers I put them in full
>>>>> length and there fore eliminated having to shorten them on the disk
>>>>> sander and trimmed all of them just a hair proud of flush after
>>>>> hammering them in.
>>>>>
>>>>> Daaaaamn, 2~3 seconds per tenon and very little cleanup sanding at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> It only took me about 115 drawers to figure that out. But who is counting?
>>>>>
>>>>> Rambling on, maybe I'll sell my Fein Multimaster and get a cordless one
>>>>> with the tool-less feature. Naaaaaaa. ;~)
>>>>
>>>> ;-)
>>>>
>>>> For that use, I probably wouldn't mind a corded tool. All of the work
>>>> is being done in the shop and there is already plenty of power around.
>>>> Multi-tools tend to be used all over the house, though. It's nice to
>>>> not have to haul extension cords around. For many jobs, hauling
>>>> everything out and putting it away takes half the time.
>>>>
>>>> Last week I was putting fold-down extensions on my down spouts. I
>>>> needed to trim about 10" off the downspouts, add the splash blocks,
>>>> and rivet the mess back together. Hauling an extension cord around
>>>> the house would have been a PITA. I have cordless drills for this
>>>> reason, the cordless multi-tool is a perfect match. I also have a
>>>> small circular saw, for the same reason. I'll probably get a cordless
>>>> saber or reciprocating saw one of these days, too.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Multimaster has certainly been a life saver and that can pay for the
>>>>> tool with only a few times of use but now I will no longer be sanding
>>>>> those tenons to length.
>>>>>
>>>> How about cutting them to length before use?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Tried that too, but the TS shot those too and I was not comfortable with
>>> repeated cutting something about 1 1/4" long and 3/16 thick and 3/4 wide
>>> down to 5/8" in length and that would be a set up for repeated cuts and
>>> really in the long run not IMHO faster than 2~3 seconds it takes to cut
>>> them with the Fein after being glued in place.
>>
>> That's what they invented these things called "jigs" for. ;-) I'd be
>> worried about slipping and gouging the work piece all to hell.
>
>Noooo no no. The blade is offset from the attachment point so you can
>lay the bottom of the blade flat on the work. The "wood only" blades
>teeth have very little set so there is no issue with damaging the
>surface. Piece of cake.
>
The blade doesn't scratch the work?

On 9/20/2015 5:14 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:07:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/20/2015 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>>>>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>>>>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>>>>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>>>>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>>>> the ship!
>>>
>>> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
>>> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.
>>>
>>
>> I think cordless makes a lot of sense for tools with regular use and
>> certainly they are more convenient.
>>
>> I prefer corded for a tool that does not see a lot of action.
>
> Why? If you're worried about battery self-discharge, LiIon all but
> solved that problem. They have a half-life of something like two
> years. Multiple tools using the same batteries also mitigate any such
> problems.
>>
>> In the mid 80's my wife gave me a right angle 1/4" reversible Makita
>> cordless drill. It did not see a lot of use and therefore after it was
>> 3~4 years old the battery always had to be recharged before use.
>
> I probably have the same drill. It wasn't a huge issue because I also
> had a drill and 3-3/8" circular saw using the same batteries. The
> batteries didn't last all that long and were expensive, so replaced
> the drill. If I need the right-angle drill or cut off saw, I'll need
> to buy new batteries anyway. ...and the next time. ...and the next.
>
>> The tool that gets about the same amount of use is my corded Fein
>> Multimaster. I'm certainly glad it is corded and only for that reason.
>
> But LiIon batteries don't have a rapid discharge. Even if you don't
> use it for a year, it'll still have something more than half charge.

Understood but I have a Bosch impact that came with 2 Li-Ion batteries.
Probably 7 years old. Both batteries were toast a couple of months
ago so I bought 1 OEM replacement. I got the Bosch when I already had a
Makita impact that was on my second set of batteries.
anyway I seldom use the Bosch, 18 volt. I preferred the 12 volt Makita.
Some how or another I must have won the Bosch as there was no explanation.

The Festool Li-Ion batteries are still going strong and they are almost
4 years old.

>>
>> Now let me backpedal.
>>
>> I build a lot. I use my Domino extensively. I use the Domino to
>> reinforce the rabbit joints on drawers with a minimum of 2 on each
>> corner of each drawer. Day before yesterday I plunge cut 48 mortises
>> after gluing up the drawers to reinforce the joints. The plunge with
>> the 5mm bit is limited to less than the length of the 5mm domino tenon.
>>
>> If I do not shorten the tenons before hammering them in they have to be
>> cut after the fact.
>>
>> Doing this with the TS is possible but you get tenons ends flying out
>> like bullets all over the shop. You have limited capacity of doing this
>> with the BS. This leaves cutting with a Japanese saw which takes way
>> too long. You can sand them down but shortening half an inch of tenon
>> tends to tear up the sand paper quickly.
>>
>> The solution that I have repeated is to use my 12" disk sander to
>> quickly shorten the length of the tenons before hammering them in to the
>> mortises. Still this is imprecise and you often end up with a few that
>> stand tall and I tear my disk sand paper.
>>
>> Given all the steps start to finish to reinforce drawer joints with
>> Domino tenons I was considering making all future drawers with box
>> joints or DT's. These are more trouble than plain old rabbit joints but
>> probably faster and less trouble than using the Domino tenons, consider
>> all the steps involved.
>>
>> Then, day before yesterday I thought about my Fein multimeter.
>> On this time with the 48 tenons on the 6 drawers I put them in full
>> length and there fore eliminated having to shorten them on the disk
>> sander and trimmed all of them just a hair proud of flush after
>> hammering them in.
>>
>> Daaaaamn, 2~3 seconds per tenon and very little cleanup sanding at all.
>>
>> It only took me about 115 drawers to figure that out. But who is counting?
>>
>> Rambling on, maybe I'll sell my Fein Multimaster and get a cordless one
>> with the tool-less feature. Naaaaaaa. ;~)
>
> ;-)
>
> For that use, I probably wouldn't mind a corded tool. All of the work
> is being done in the shop and there is already plenty of power around.
> Multi-tools tend to be used all over the house, though. It's nice to
> not have to haul extension cords around. For many jobs, hauling
> everything out and putting it away takes half the time.
>
> Last week I was putting fold-down extensions on my down spouts. I
> needed to trim about 10" off the downspouts, add the splash blocks,
> and rivet the mess back together. Hauling an extension cord around
> the house would have been a PITA. I have cordless drills for this
> reason, the cordless multi-tool is a perfect match. I also have a
> small circular saw, for the same reason. I'll probably get a cordless
> saber or reciprocating saw one of these days, too.
>>
>> The Multimaster has certainly been a life saver and that can pay for the
>> tool with only a few times of use but now I will no longer be sanding
>> those tenons to length.
>>
> How about cutting them to length before use?
>

Tried that too, but the TS shot those too and I was not comfortable with
repeated cutting something about 1 1/4" long and 3/16 thick and 3/4 wide
down to 5/8" in length and that would be a set up for repeated cuts and
really in the long run not IMHO faster than 2~3 seconds it takes to cut
them with the Fein after being glued in place.

On 9/20/2015 8:58 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 19:49:57 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/20/2015 5:14 PM, krw wrote:
>>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:07:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 9/20/2015 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>>>>>>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>>>>>>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>>>>>>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>>>>>>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>>>>>> the ship!
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
>>>>> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think cordless makes a lot of sense for tools with regular use and
>>>> certainly they are more convenient.
>>>>
>>>> I prefer corded for a tool that does not see a lot of action.
>>>
>>> Why? If you're worried about battery self-discharge, LiIon all but
>>> solved that problem. They have a half-life of something like two
>>> years. Multiple tools using the same batteries also mitigate any such
>>> problems.
>>>>
>>>> In the mid 80's my wife gave me a right angle 1/4" reversible Makita
>>>> cordless drill. It did not see a lot of use and therefore after it was
>>>> 3~4 years old the battery always had to be recharged before use.
>>>
>>> I probably have the same drill. It wasn't a huge issue because I also
>>> had a drill and 3-3/8" circular saw using the same batteries. The
>>> batteries didn't last all that long and were expensive, so replaced
>>> the drill. If I need the right-angle drill or cut off saw, I'll need
>>> to buy new batteries anyway. ...and the next time. ...and the next.
>>>
>>>> The tool that gets about the same amount of use is my corded Fein
>>>> Multimaster. I'm certainly glad it is corded and only for that reason.
>>>
>>> But LiIon batteries don't have a rapid discharge. Even if you don't
>>> use it for a year, it'll still have something more than half charge.
>>
>> Understood but I have a Bosch impact that came with 2 Li-Ion batteries.
>> Probably 7 years old. Both batteries were toast a couple of months
>> ago so I bought 1 OEM replacement. I got the Bosch when I already had a
>> Makita impact that was on my second set of batteries.
>> anyway I seldom use the Bosch, 18 volt. I preferred the 12 volt Makita.
>> Some how or another I must have won the Bosch as there was no explanation.
>
> I have all three Bosch 12V tools (drill, driver, and Impactor, though
> no batteries came with the drivers) and picked up five or six more,
> cheap, when the BORG stopped selling Bosch. One or two died very
> early so that leaves eight or so. It's been at least four years, so
> they've held up well.
>
>> The Festool Li-Ion batteries are still going strong and they are almost
>> 4 years old.
>
> LiIon batteries last a long time. They're more limited by charge
> cycles than time.

Tell that to the 5~7 charge cycles each of those batteries went through.
Remember, I seldom used that impact compared to the Makita. I will
give you that Li-Ion batteries do tend to out last others but they do
have a limited life regardless of how many charge cycles they get.



>>
>>>>
>>>> Now let me backpedal.
>>>>
>>>> I build a lot. I use my Domino extensively. I use the Domino to
>>>> reinforce the rabbit joints on drawers with a minimum of 2 on each
>>>> corner of each drawer. Day before yesterday I plunge cut 48 mortises
>>>> after gluing up the drawers to reinforce the joints. The plunge with
>>>> the 5mm bit is limited to less than the length of the 5mm domino tenon.
>>>>
>>>> If I do not shorten the tenons before hammering them in they have to be
>>>> cut after the fact.
>>>>
>>>> Doing this with the TS is possible but you get tenons ends flying out
>>>> like bullets all over the shop. You have limited capacity of doing this
>>>> with the BS. This leaves cutting with a Japanese saw which takes way
>>>> too long. You can sand them down but shortening half an inch of tenon
>>>> tends to tear up the sand paper quickly.
>>>>
>>>> The solution that I have repeated is to use my 12" disk sander to
>>>> quickly shorten the length of the tenons before hammering them in to the
>>>> mortises. Still this is imprecise and you often end up with a few that
>>>> stand tall and I tear my disk sand paper.
>>>>
>>>> Given all the steps start to finish to reinforce drawer joints with
>>>> Domino tenons I was considering making all future drawers with box
>>>> joints or DT's. These are more trouble than plain old rabbit joints but
>>>> probably faster and less trouble than using the Domino tenons, consider
>>>> all the steps involved.
>>>>
>>>> Then, day before yesterday I thought about my Fein multimeter.
>>>> On this time with the 48 tenons on the 6 drawers I put them in full
>>>> length and there fore eliminated having to shorten them on the disk
>>>> sander and trimmed all of them just a hair proud of flush after
>>>> hammering them in.
>>>>
>>>> Daaaaamn, 2~3 seconds per tenon and very little cleanup sanding at all.
>>>>
>>>> It only took me about 115 drawers to figure that out. But who is counting?
>>>>
>>>> Rambling on, maybe I'll sell my Fein Multimaster and get a cordless one
>>>> with the tool-less feature. Naaaaaaa. ;~)
>>>
>>> ;-)
>>>
>>> For that use, I probably wouldn't mind a corded tool. All of the work
>>> is being done in the shop and there is already plenty of power around.
>>> Multi-tools tend to be used all over the house, though. It's nice to
>>> not have to haul extension cords around. For many jobs, hauling
>>> everything out and putting it away takes half the time.
>>>
>>> Last week I was putting fold-down extensions on my down spouts. I
>>> needed to trim about 10" off the downspouts, add the splash blocks,
>>> and rivet the mess back together. Hauling an extension cord around
>>> the house would have been a PITA. I have cordless drills for this
>>> reason, the cordless multi-tool is a perfect match. I also have a
>>> small circular saw, for the same reason. I'll probably get a cordless
>>> saber or reciprocating saw one of these days, too.
>>>>
>>>> The Multimaster has certainly been a life saver and that can pay for the
>>>> tool with only a few times of use but now I will no longer be sanding
>>>> those tenons to length.
>>>>
>>> How about cutting them to length before use?
>>>
>>
>> Tried that too, but the TS shot those too and I was not comfortable with
>> repeated cutting something about 1 1/4" long and 3/16 thick and 3/4 wide
>> down to 5/8" in length and that would be a set up for repeated cuts and
>> really in the long run not IMHO faster than 2~3 seconds it takes to cut
>> them with the Fein after being glued in place.
>
> That's what they invented these things called "jigs" for. ;-) I'd be
> worried about slipping and gouging the work piece all to hell.

Noooo no no. The blade is offset from the attachment point so you can
lay the bottom of the blade flat on the work. The "wood only" blades
teeth have very little set so there is no issue with damaging the
surface. Piece of cake.

On 9/19/2015 11:11 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:52:05 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>
[snip]

>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
>> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
>> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
>> with those.
>
>
> Of course, nothing but Festool! ;-)
>
> Now that we got that out of the way... ;-)
> I own a Dremel corded and a Bosch cordless oscillating saw. Of the
> two, I use the cordless one at least 10:1 over the corded saw.
>
> I looked at the Fein a year or so ago (they had a demo at Woodcraft)
> and was impressed. The price wasn't all that bad, anymore, either. If
> I were buying again, I'd probably buy the Fein instead of the Dremmel
> but I'd still be using the Bosch ten times as often as the Fein.

A Huge +1 on the Bosch Cordless. It is my first and only (had it about
6 years now, maybe a bit more) oscillating multi-tool.

My only complaint is that I waited so long to buy it - or any multi-tool.

I've used it, abused it, and have even been amused (by all the things I
can do with it to save me time and energy) by it.

As I have no basis for comparison I would only say that if it crapped
out or was stolen tomorrow, I cannot think of any reason to look further
than the Bosch. It does everything it claims to do, everything I want
it to do (and I'm constantly finding new uses for it), and does it well.

Double +1 for ANY brand CORDLESS multi-tool. You aren't building a
house with this thing, you're either repairing, remodeling or putting a
finishing touch on something. With two batteries available, I've never
had downtime waiting for a recharge and can count on one hand the number
of times I needed a recharge to finish a job.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>
> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So even
> though it probably will, I would like this thread to not quickly
> escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over again too
> many times already, HF multitool debate. :-)
> After probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but
> I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>
> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it. Plus,
> it's so fricken loud!!!
> 2. The new oscillating tools I've seen have a quick release and that's
> very appealing to me.
> 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After
> using the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine
> if this is the case.
>
> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions about
> oscillating tools from those who have actually used them.
> I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be convinced.
>
> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters or
> already accept all blades.
>
> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
> with those.

Festool _is_ Fein--their oscillating tool is a rebadged Fein Supercut--
the Supercut is Fein's "pro" line and it's actually somewhat
specialized--it's not really any better for general purpose use than the
Multimaster.

And I'm not sure where you're getting six hundred bucks. Home Depot has
the Fein 250 Start for $179 (if you can find one--it's discontinued) and
the 350 Start for $199. Starting price on the Supercut is under $400.

Note that "Start" refers to the accessory bundle--there are three kits
for the Multimaster--"Start", "Systainer", and "Top"--which differ in
accessories. According to the Fein site the "Systainer" version has the
same accessories as the "Top" but comes in a systainer instead of the
purpose-made Fein case. That one is available from Coastal Tool
<http://www.coastaltool.com/a/fein/fmm350q-systainer.htm> for $269.00
and is the package I'd recommend as the value of the accessories
included is considerably more than the price difference between that and
the "Start". Note that Coastal is a brick-and-mortar store local to me
where I do most of my tool shopping, but also has a thriving online
business.

Personally I'm mostly happy with my Fein (which I got from Coastal)--I
got the last model before they went to the "star" blade mount and wish
it would die so I'd have an excuse to get one with the new mount, but it
just keeps chugging on. Other than the old mount, which slips, it's an
amazing tool that is far far more versatile than I realized when I got
it.

If Fein went out of business and my Fein died, I'd have to do some
research to figure out what to replace it with.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> Mike Marlow wrote:
> > Bill wrote:
> >
> >> I looked at the Jet, which Rockler put on sale once this year at
> >> $389. I though that it made the sub-$200 options look over-priced.
> >> YMMV.
> > Somewhat confused by what you're trying to say here Bill.
> Mike, I meant I would recommend someone take a look at it before ruling
> it out because of the price. It appears to offer quite a bit of "bang
> for the buck". The sub-$200 look like "mere appliances" in
> comparison. That said, I haven't contributed anything to the Festool
> thread...we all have our limitations! : )

Bill, for $389 you can just buy the damn Festool and be done with it (it
says "Fein Supercut" on it but it's the same tool and takes all the same
accessories).

There just isn't any more "bang" to be had in this kind of tool for any
amount of bucks.

But I don't see an oscillating tool from Jet on either the Rockler or
the Jet site.

Here's the kind of tool we're talking about
<http://www.coastaltool.com/a/fein/fmm350q-systainer.htm>

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> On 9/19/2015 11:11 PM, krw wrote:
> > On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:52:05 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
> >> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
> >>
> [snip]
>
> >> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
> >> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
> >> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
> >> with those.
> >
> >
> > Of course, nothing but Festool! ;-)
> >
> > Now that we got that out of the way... ;-)
> > I own a Dremel corded and a Bosch cordless oscillating saw. Of the
> > two, I use the cordless one at least 10:1 over the corded saw.
> >
> > I looked at the Fein a year or so ago (they had a demo at Woodcraft)
> > and was impressed. The price wasn't all that bad, anymore, either. If
> > I were buying again, I'd probably buy the Fein instead of the Dremmel
> > but I'd still be using the Bosch ten times as often as the Fein.
>
> A Huge +1 on the Bosch Cordless. It is my first and only (had it about
> 6 years now, maybe a bit more) oscillating multi-tool.
>
> My only complaint is that I waited so long to buy it - or any multi-tool.
>
> I've used it, abused it, and have even been amused (by all the things I
> can do with it to save me time and energy) by it.
>
> As I have no basis for comparison I would only say that if it crapped
> out or was stolen tomorrow, I cannot think of any reason to look further
> than the Bosch. It does everything it claims to do, everything I want
> it to do (and I'm constantly finding new uses for it), and does it well.
>
> Double +1 for ANY brand CORDLESS multi-tool. You aren't building a
> house with this thing, you're either repairing, remodeling or putting a
> finishing touch on something. With two batteries available, I've never
> had downtime waiting for a recharge and can count on one hand the number
> of times I needed a recharge to finish a job.

I have to admit that a cordless is tempting and Fein doesn't seem to be
making theirs anymore. My Fein has a 15 foot cord that is a pain to
wrap up and stuff in the case when I'm done for the day. Sometimes I'm
tempted to cut it shorter.

On 9/20/2015 10:06 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> My Fein has a 15 foot cord that is a pain to
> wrap up and stuff in the case when I'm done for the day. Sometimes I'm
> tempted to cut it shorter.

That's one of the things I like best about my Fein on a job site. In the
shop, not so much.

What you make on the bananas, you lose on the grapes...

--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 9/20/2015 10:49 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 9/19/15 11:11 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:52:05 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up,
>
[snip]

>> I looked at the Fein a year or so ago (they had a demo at Woodcraft)
>> and was impressed. The price wasn't all that bad, anymore, either.
>> If I were buying again, I'd probably buy the Fein instead of the
>> Dremmel but I'd still be using the Bosch ten times as often as the
>> Fein.
>>
>
> How fast do the batteries charge on the Bosch and is there a notable
> difference in power between the corded and cordless?

As previously stated, I have only owned the one Bosch cordless so I
cannot compare apples and corded apples <g>

As for the recharge time, it's fairly quick but unless I'm running it
under heavy load constantly - which is rarely the case - I don't need to
recharge it while working a project. As I said, I've NEVER had down
time due to waiting around for a recharge. YMMV of course depending on
usage.

On 9/25/2015 7:59 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 9/25/2015 7:09 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
>> On 9/25/2015 12:54 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

>>
>> I have yet to say "Damn! I sure wish I'd bought a better blade so this
>> job would look better, go faster." IOW all have been adequate for the
>> job. Might a better blade last longer?
>>
>> Well, I'm reminded of the 85 year old who hooks up with the dynamite
>> hooker while visiting the casino in Reno. As they head up to his room,
>> the pit boss cautions him about the intended exertion and he replies,
>> "Hey, I'll take the risk. If she dies, she dies!"
>>
>> Crappy blade? Still cuts well enough and if it dies on the job, what do
>> I care? Not worried about screwing up a $20 blade, I am more "creative"
>> with what I attempt with the multi-tool
>>
> Hopefully it has been a while since you have bought blades, they can be
> had for as little as $2-$10 each in sets now, even with Fein.

For sure. Haven't really looked at them for a couple years. Fell into
a couple of the aforementioned "good deals" back when they were sky high
and...

I'll bet I have better than 30-35 new blades left and doubt that I have
$30 invested in the lot. Those that bite the dust often find themselves
at the grinding wheel having what's left of the teeth ground off and
squared and sharpened for use as power scrapers.

Waste not, want not<g>

On 9/20/2015 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 11:02:32 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/20/15 8:31 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>>>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>>>
>>>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well


[snip]

>>>
>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>> the ship!
>
> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.

Weakness as in quick change of blade or have you run into another
problem with it?

Admittedly, I'd probably like a quick change option on it but as someone
else mentioned in passing, "what you make on bananas, you lose on
grapes" (or something very similar). Sometimes the quick change
artistry leaves much to be desired in terms of strength and durability.
At least when I torque down the blade on my Bosch, I know it's going
to hold solid.

On 9/25/2015 7:09 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 9/25/2015 12:54 AM, Leon wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 9/19/15 11:52 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>>>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>>>
>
> [snip]
>
>>>
>>> On a whim, I bought the Fein 350Q for $200 and WOW.... just wow.
>>> As for my criteria...
>>> It's remarkably quiet for an oscillating multitool.
>>> No discernible heat whatsoever.
>>> The quick release is a thing of beauty. So easy and fast, it is no
>>> longer even a second thought whether to reposition or change blades. I
>>> just do it. It's about as fast as changing hand position.
>>> As for performing better than the HF. Well, it costs 15x as much and
>>> easily performs 15x as well, as I always suspected. I'm still just as
>>> much an advocate of the HF because it does very well and for the price,
>>> it does a whole lot better than it should. But I'm very happy I finally
>>> bought a *real* multitool. But the Fein cut much faster, much cleaner,
>>> and is much better to use.
>>>
>>> Pleasant surprises about the Fein:
>>> SOFT Start! I had no idea it did this and wouldn't want it any other
>>> way. There are so many advantages to this.
>>> Virtually vibration free! My hands used to get a bit numb with the HF
>>> after continued use. With the Fein, you almost don't know it's on and
>>> it hardly moves if you set it down while running.
>>> I mentioned it's much quieter.
>>> The 17ft. cord! One of you mention not liking it and Karl mentioned
>>> liking it... well, I'm with Karl in this one. I always needed to have
>>> an extension cord with the HF but I don't think I'll ever use one with
>>> the Fein. It's a very high quality, braided sheathed, cable so I don't
>>> see it getting kinked up any time soon.
>>> It's smaller around than the others I looked at. Not a whole lot, but
>>> it's a lot when you hold it and have to maneuver it. I don't have big
>>> gorilla hands, so it's an advantage for me when using it.
>>> It takes Dremel and Ridgid blades (and likely others). Using only their
>>> own blades was a big issue when the Fein first stormed the market, but
>>> things seemed to have changed and blades are more universal.
>>>
>>> I'm actually still thinking about the cordless Bosch, but I needed to
>>> use this today and no local stores carry the Bosch. But if I end up
>>> keeping the Fein (or returning it and getting the deal at coastaltool),
>>> I don't think I'll ever look back.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Soooo, you like it? :-)
>> FWIW. The blades for that thing 7-8 years ago were a minimum of a about
>> $37.00 each.
>> Now that Fein finally has some competition there are a lot of options for
>> blades.
>> You might want to also look at Imperial for replacement blades, I
>> understand that they are good and make blades for most any multi tool
>> brand. I have not yet tried them, I wonder if anyone here has ant
>> experience with them.
>
>
> Thanks for the interesting review of the Fein, Mike. It's always
> interesting to read of others experiences with new tools - the reviews
> not fueled by ad dollars coming in or slipping away, <g>
>
> Blades are expensive, no doubt about it. My tactic has been to watch
> for sales of the house brand or others at Menard's, et al. While I use
> my Bosch every chance I get, it still is not "overworked" and I have a
> nice supply of blades that I got on the cheap. IIRC, I bought one of
> the "batches of blades" at Menard's for maybe 80% off.
>
> I have yet to say "Damn! I sure wish I'd bought a better blade so this
> job would look better, go faster." IOW all have been adequate for the
> job. Might a better blade last longer?
>
> Well, I'm reminded of the 85 year old who hooks up with the dynamite
> hooker while visiting the casino in Reno. As they head up to his room,
> the pit boss cautions him about the intended exertion and he replies,
> "Hey, I'll take the risk. If she dies, she dies!"
>
> Crappy blade? Still cuts well enough and if it dies on the job, what do
> I care? Not worried about screwing up a $20 blade, I am more "creative"
> with what I attempt with the multi-tool
>
Hopefully it has been a while since you have bought blades, they can be
had for as little as $2-$10 each in sets now, even with Fein.

I have the (or a) Rockwell machine. Universal head.
I can buy what is out there for sale and use it.

It rocks. I got it to replace an exterior vent to the drier
that was RTV'd onto brick. But haven't gotten to that job,
but plenty of others.

It surprised my wife on how easy it was to use and got some looks
like she might use it someday herself.

Possible - she has a nice drill and other tools for work on the house...
(I use them mostly).

Martin


On 9/20/2015 10:16 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> On 9/20/2015 10:39 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
>> I'm surprised to hear that it is comparable in performance to the Fein.
>
> I now see that Dremel makes several models. Mine was an early one
> (6300), with a less powerful motor.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>

On 9/19/2015 11:52 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>
> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
> with those.

As you probably know I have a Fein, 15 years, and it still runs like new.

Almost daily on every job site someone reaches for it. It is one of the
rare tools I've let others use, and despite that kind of use, which
usually results in a short lived tool, the only problem I've had is
blades being dulled when I needed it.

Decided to stop that, so, even though it was in the truck, my response
to where is it? "left it at the shop."

Last year my good buddy, and right hand man (he was the biggest
culprit), purchased his own ... a Dremel (MM45?) from HD.

Now, I do leave mine at the shop, and use his. ;)

Good tool, and I've used it enough to make a comparison. Other than a
certain "heft" to the hand, there is no noticeable difference in
function, fit and finish, and ability to do the job. It certainly has
the power.

Obviously longevity, with regard to the Fein, is a question, but so far
so good on withstanding the rigors of the job site.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 2:37:50 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
> I have little use for one of these, as my remodeling days are long gone,=
=20
> I thought. My wife forced me into gutting our bathroom and I borrowed=20
> my buddies HF multi-tool to cut the door moldings to accommodate the new=
=20
> ceramic tile floor. =20

The most "interesting" use of the tool that I experienced was when I helped=
my son put an bathroom exhaust fan in a really old house. Let me start by =
saying that I am afraid of heights.

The slope of the roof made it unwalkable, so we wanted to vent it up into t=
he attic and then out through the soffit. There was no room in the attic to=
cut the soffit hole from up there and the lay of the land prevented the us=
e of a ladder to reach the soffit from outside. The soffit was 3 stories ab=
ove the ground.

I ending up hanging halfway out of the bathroom window with a rope around m=
y waist and my son holding onto my legs. I forget what we tied the rope to =
but it was "secure" (yeah, right!)

Anyway, I was barely able to reach the soffit with the tool but managed to =
cut a square hole to hold the vent cover. It was really the only tool for t=
he job, allowing me to reach out and up with one hand and plunge through th=
e soffit.

Did I mention that I am afraid of heights?

On 9/21/2015 8:57 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 22:35:25 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
Snip


>>>
>>>> The Festool Li-Ion batteries are still going strong and they are almost
>>>> 4 years old.
>>>
>>> LiIon batteries last a long time. They're more limited by charge
>>> cycles than time.
>>
>> Tell that to the 5~7 charge cycles each of those batteries went through.
>
> LiIon or NiCd?

LiIon 18 volt



Snip


>>>> Tried that too, but the TS shot those too and I was not comfortable with
>>>> repeated cutting something about 1 1/4" long and 3/16 thick and 3/4 wide
>>>> down to 5/8" in length and that would be a set up for repeated cuts and
>>>> really in the long run not IMHO faster than 2~3 seconds it takes to cut
>>>> them with the Fein after being glued in place.
>>>
>>> That's what they invented these things called "jigs" for. ;-) I'd be
>>> worried about slipping and gouging the work piece all to hell.
>>
>> Noooo no no. The blade is offset from the attachment point so you can
>> lay the bottom of the blade flat on the work. The "wood only" blades
>> teeth have very little set so there is no issue with damaging the
>> surface. Piece of cake.
>>
> The blade doesn't scratch the work?
>
No, not if you keep the blade flat. I not using the blade that cuts
metals too. I am using the strictly wood cutting blades with a offset flat.

On 9/25/2015 12:54 AM, Leon wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 9/19/15 11:52 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>>

[snip]

>>
>> On a whim, I bought the Fein 350Q for $200 and WOW.... just wow.
>> As for my criteria...
>> It's remarkably quiet for an oscillating multitool.
>> No discernible heat whatsoever.
>> The quick release is a thing of beauty. So easy and fast, it is no
>> longer even a second thought whether to reposition or change blades. I
>> just do it. It's about as fast as changing hand position.
>> As for performing better than the HF. Well, it costs 15x as much and
>> easily performs 15x as well, as I always suspected. I'm still just as
>> much an advocate of the HF because it does very well and for the price,
>> it does a whole lot better than it should. But I'm very happy I finally
>> bought a *real* multitool. But the Fein cut much faster, much cleaner,
>> and is much better to use.
>>
>> Pleasant surprises about the Fein:
>> SOFT Start! I had no idea it did this and wouldn't want it any other
>> way. There are so many advantages to this.
>> Virtually vibration free! My hands used to get a bit numb with the HF
>> after continued use. With the Fein, you almost don't know it's on and
>> it hardly moves if you set it down while running.
>> I mentioned it's much quieter.
>> The 17ft. cord! One of you mention not liking it and Karl mentioned
>> liking it... well, I'm with Karl in this one. I always needed to have
>> an extension cord with the HF but I don't think I'll ever use one with
>> the Fein. It's a very high quality, braided sheathed, cable so I don't
>> see it getting kinked up any time soon.
>> It's smaller around than the others I looked at. Not a whole lot, but
>> it's a lot when you hold it and have to maneuver it. I don't have big
>> gorilla hands, so it's an advantage for me when using it.
>> It takes Dremel and Ridgid blades (and likely others). Using only their
>> own blades was a big issue when the Fein first stormed the market, but
>> things seemed to have changed and blades are more universal.
>>
>> I'm actually still thinking about the cordless Bosch, but I needed to
>> use this today and no local stores carry the Bosch. But if I end up
>> keeping the Fein (or returning it and getting the deal at coastaltool),
>> I don't think I'll ever look back.
>>
>
>
> Soooo, you like it? :-)
> FWIW. The blades for that thing 7-8 years ago were a minimum of a about
> $37.00 each.
> Now that Fein finally has some competition there are a lot of options for
> blades.
> You might want to also look at Imperial for replacement blades, I
> understand that they are good and make blades for most any multi tool
> brand. I have not yet tried them, I wonder if anyone here has ant
> experience with them.


Thanks for the interesting review of the Fein, Mike. It's always
interesting to read of others experiences with new tools - the reviews
not fueled by ad dollars coming in or slipping away, <g>

Blades are expensive, no doubt about it. My tactic has been to watch
for sales of the house brand or others at Menard's, et al. While I use
my Bosch every chance I get, it still is not "overworked" and I have a
nice supply of blades that I got on the cheap. IIRC, I bought one of
the "batches of blades" at Menard's for maybe 80% off.

I have yet to say "Damn! I sure wish I'd bought a better blade so this
job would look better, go faster." IOW all have been adequate for the
job. Might a better blade last longer?

Well, I'm reminded of the 85 year old who hooks up with the dynamite
hooker while visiting the casino in Reno. As they head up to his room,
the pit boss cautions him about the intended exertion and he replies,
"Hey, I'll take the risk. If she dies, she dies!"

Crappy blade? Still cuts well enough and if it dies on the job, what do
I care? Not worried about screwing up a $20 blade, I am more "creative"
with what I attempt with the multi-tool

-MIKE- wrote:

>
> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender.

I don't know -Mike-, I might give you a good run for you money on that
honor...

> So even
> though it probably will, I would like this thread to not quickly
> escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over again too
> many times already, HF multitool debate. :-)
> After probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong,
> but I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>
> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it. Plus,
> it's so fricken loud!!!
> 2. The new oscillating tools I've seen have a quick release and
> that's very appealing to me.
> 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After
> using the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly
> determine if this is the case.

My multi-tool (HF) is only a year or two old - I was a later comer to this
tool. I can't speak comparatively to noise and vibration because I've not
used any other brands. What I can speak to is that mine does not run hot at
all. It's a corded model that cost me $15. Never gets even noticeably warm
in my hand. Maybe that's because it take a ton of heat to make me aware of
it, but I just do not notice any heat in mine. Maybe because it's a much
newer model/design?

You get to HF often enough that it might be worth the effort on your part to
pick one up and try it out. You can always return it on your next trip in,
if you don't find the current models to be improved over yours. At $15,
you're not carrying a second mortgage just to try it out.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:
> On 9/19/2015 11:52 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
>> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
>> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
>> with those.
I looked at the Jet, which Rockler put on sale once this year at $389. I
though that it made the sub-$200 options look over-priced. YMMV.

Bill


>
> As you probably know I have a Fein, 15 years, and it still runs like new.
>
> Almost daily on every job site someone reaches for it. It is one of
> the rare tools I've let others use, and despite that kind of use,
> which usually results in a short lived tool, the only problem I've had
> is blades being dulled when I needed it.
>
> Decided to stop that, so, even though it was in the truck, my response
> to where is it? "left it at the shop."
>
> Last year my good buddy, and right hand man (he was the biggest
> culprit), purchased his own ... a Dremel (MM45?) from HD.
>
> Now, I do leave mine at the shop, and use his. ;)
>
> Good tool, and I've used it enough to make a comparison. Other than a
> certain "heft" to the hand, there is no noticeable difference in
> function, fit and finish, and ability to do the job. It certainly has
> the power.
>
> Obviously longevity, with regard to the Fein, is a question, but so
> far so good on withstanding the rigors of the job site.
>

Bill wrote:

> I looked at the Jet, which Rockler put on sale once this year at
> $389. I though that it made the sub-$200 options look over-priced.
> YMMV.

Somewhat confused by what you're trying to say here Bill.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 9/19/15 4:15 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 9/19/2015 11:52 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a
>> close second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an
>> oscillating tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so
>> I'm sticking with those.
>
> As you probably know I have a Fein, 15 years, and it still runs like
> new.
>
> Almost daily on every job site someone reaches for it. It is one of
> the rare tools I've let others use, and despite that kind of use,
> which usually results in a short lived tool, the only problem I've
> had is blades being dulled when I needed it.
>
> Decided to stop that, so, even though it was in the truck, my
> response to where is it? "left it at the shop."
>
> Last year my good buddy, and right hand man (he was the biggest
> culprit), purchased his own ... a Dremel (MM45?) from HD.
>
> Now, I do leave mine at the shop, and use his. ;)
>
> Good tool, and I've used it enough to make a comparison. Other than a
> certain "heft" to the hand, there is no noticeable difference in
> function, fit and finish, and ability to do the job. It certainly has
> the power.
>
> Obviously longevity, with regard to the Fein, is a question, but so
> far so good on withstanding the rigors of the job site.
>

Thank you! That's exactly the kind of info I'm looking for and no
surprise it came from you. I've been leaning towards the Dremel, so now
I'm leaning a bit more.

I have their Saw-Max and have been very impressed with it.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/19/15 4:37 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> -MIKE- wrote:
>
>>
>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender.
>
> I don't know -Mike-, I might give you a good run for you money on
> that honor...
>
>> So even though it probably will, I would like this thread to not
>> quickly escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over
>> again too many times already, HF multitool debate. :-) After
>> probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but
>> I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>>
>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it.
>> Plus, it's so fricken loud!!! 2. The new oscillating tools I've
>> seen have a quick release and that's very appealing to me. 3. I'm
>> hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After using
>> the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine
>> if this is the case.
>
> My multi-tool (HF) is only a year or two old - I was a later comer to
> this tool. I can't speak comparatively to noise and vibration
> because I've not used any other brands. What I can speak to is that
> mine does not run hot at all. It's a corded model that cost me $15.
> Never gets even noticeably warm in my hand. Maybe that's because it
> take a ton of heat to make me aware of it, but I just do not notice
> any heat in mine. Maybe because it's a much newer model/design?
>
> You get to HF often enough that it might be worth the effort on your
> part to pick one up and try it out. You can always return it on your
> next trip in, if you don't find the current models to be improved
> over yours. At $15, you're not carrying a second mortgage just to
> try it out.
>

Since we moved, I'm about 30 minutes from HF and haven't been there in
1-1/2 years. Even though it's only 30 minutes away, the traffic around
that area makes it seem like a day trip. :-)
But I haven't given up on the idea of getting another 15 buck one just
to have around.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/19/15 4:40 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>
>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So even
>> though it probably will, I would like this thread to not quickly
>> escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over again too
>> many times already, HF multitool debate. :-)
>> After probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong,
>> but I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>>
>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it.
>> Plus, it's so fricken loud!!!
>> 2. The new oscillating tools I've seen have a quick release and
>> that's very appealing to me.
>> 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After
>> using the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly
>> determine if this is the case.
>>
>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions
>> about oscillating tools from those who have actually used them.
>> I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
>> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be
>> convinced.
>>
>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters or
>> already accept all blades.
>>
>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
>> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
>> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
>> with those.
>>
>>
>
> I have the Bosch, asked about it here a couple years ago. It doesn't
> have the non-tool blade release, but uses a hex wrench and socket cap
> screw. It is MUCH quieter and vibrates the body of the tool MUCH less
> than the HF version. I can't speak to cooler or faster, as I usually
> don't have either tool on long enough to find out.
>
> I wonder if one of your local stores would be willing to let you take
> the tool out of the box and turn it on. Even without cutting, you'll
> notice a big difference.
>
> I still have the HF tool, it's down at the club and sometimes gets used
> more than the Bosch that replaced it.
>
> Puckdropper
>

The Bosch is very high on my list.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/19/15 5:41 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>>
>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up,
>> but we'll see if I can though this with any actual information.
>> :-D
>>
>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So
>> even though it probably will, I would like this thread to not
>> quickly escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over
>> again too many times already, HF multitool debate. :-) After
>> probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but
>> I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>>
>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it.
>> Plus, it's so fricken loud!!! 2. The new oscillating tools I've
>> seen have a quick release and that's very appealing to me. 3. I'm
>> hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After using
>> the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine
>> if this is the case.
>>
>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions
>> about oscillating tools from those who have actually used them. I'm
>> looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
>> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be
>> convinced.
>>
>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters
>> or already accept all blades.
>>
>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a
>> close second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an
>> oscillating tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so
>> I'm sticking with those.
>
> Festool _is_ Fein--their oscillating tool is a rebadged Fein
> Supercut-- the Supercut is Fein's "pro" line and it's actually
> somewhat specialized--it's not really any better for general purpose
> use than the Multimaster.
>
> And I'm not sure where you're getting six hundred bucks. Home Depot
> has the Fein 250 Start for $179 (if you can find one--it's
> discontinued) and the 350 Start for $199. Starting price on the
> Supercut is under $400.
>
> Note that "Start" refers to the accessory bundle--there are three
> kits for the Multimaster--"Start", "Systainer", and "Top"--which
> differ in accessories. According to the Fein site the "Systainer"
> version has the same accessories as the "Top" but comes in a
> systainer instead of the purpose-made Fein case. That one is
> available from Coastal Tool
> <http://www.coastaltool.com/a/fein/fmm350q-systainer.htm> for
> $269.00 and is the package I'd recommend as the value of the
> accessories included is considerably more than the price difference
> between that and the "Start". Note that Coastal is a
> brick-and-mortar store local to me where I do most of my tool
> shopping, but also has a thriving online business.
>
> Personally I'm mostly happy with my Fein (which I got from
> Coastal)--I got the last model before they went to the "star" blade
> mount and wish it would die so I'd have an excuse to get one with the
> new mount, but it just keeps chugging on. Other than the old mount,
> which slips, it's an amazing tool that is far far more versatile than
> I realized when I got it.
>
> If Fein went out of business and my Fein died, I'd have to do some
> research to figure out what to replace it with.
>
>

I threw $600 out there because that's what the Festool kit at
Woodcraft was going for when I stopped in. If I'm willing to throw $150
at the Bosch, I will have to take a closer look at the Fein starter kit
for $179.

Thanks for the info.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I looked at the Jet, which Rockler put on sale once this year at
>> $389. I though that it made the sub-$200 options look over-priced.
>> YMMV.
> Somewhat confused by what you're trying to say here Bill.
Mike, I meant I would recommend someone take a look at it before ruling
it out because of the price. It appears to offer quite a bit of "bang
for the buck". The sub-$200 look like "mere appliances" in
comparison. That said, I haven't contributed anything to the Festool
thread...we all have our limitations! : )

Bill


>

On 9/19/2015 5:15 PM, Swingman wrote:
>
> Last year my good buddy, and right hand man (he was the biggest
> culprit), purchased his own ... a Dremel (MM45?) from HD.
>
> Now, I do leave mine at the shop, and use his. ;)
>
> Good tool, and I've used it enough to make a comparison. Other than a
> certain "heft" to the hand, there is no noticeable difference in
> function, fit and finish, and ability to do the job. It certainly has
> the power.

I have the Dremel. It's proved useful, very useful actually, but I only
need it occasionally. I'm not a contractor.

I'm surprised to hear that it is comparable in performance to the Fein.
I assumed the Fein had more power. One thing I've noticed is that it
gets pretty hot. Compounding that, the vents are very close to where my
fingers are. In fact, in certain operations, I have found myself
accidentally covering some of the vents when I try to grip the tool
closer to the business end, for more control. Perhaps there was no way
around that, design-wise.

I'm not crazy about the blade changing system. I wish the screw was a
little longer, less likely to come out when I loosen it enough to change
the blade. I'm also wary of overtightening the screw, as the mechanism
doesn't feel that robust. Possibly as a result of this, it occasionally
works its way loose during use. Maybe if I used it often enough, I'd get
the "feel" for the correct torque.

Having sai all that, it's definitely a tool that can transform certain
tasks from "How the hell am I going to do this?" into "Hey, that was easy".

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On 9/20/2015 10:39 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
> I'm surprised to hear that it is comparable in performance to the Fein.

I now see that Dremel makes several models. Mine was an early one
(6300), with a less powerful motor.

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On 9/19/15 11:11 PM, krw wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:52:05 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up,
>> but we'll see if I can though this with any actual information.
>> :-D
>>
>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So
>> even though it probably will, I would like this thread to not
>> quickly escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over
>> again too many times already, HF multitool debate. :-) After
>> probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but
>> I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>>
>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it.
>> Plus, it's so fricken loud!!! 2. The new oscillating tools I've
>> seen have a quick release and that's very appealing to me. 3. I'm
>> hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After using
>> the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine
>> if this is the case.
>>
>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions
>> about oscillating tools from those who have actually used them. I'm
>> looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
>> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be
>> convinced.
>>
>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters
>> or already accept all blades.
>>
>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a
>> close second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an
>> oscillating tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so
>> I'm sticking with those.
>
>
> Of course, nothing but Festool! ;-)
>
> Now that we got that out of the way... ;-) I own a Dremel corded and
> a Bosch cordless oscillating saw. Of the two, I use the cordless one
> at least 10:1 over the corded saw.
>
> I looked at the Fein a year or so ago (they had a demo at Woodcraft)
> and was impressed. The price wasn't all that bad, anymore, either.
> If I were buying again, I'd probably buy the Fein instead of the
> Dremmel but I'd still be using the Bosch ten times as often as the
> Fein.
>

How fast do the batteries charge on the Bosch and is there a notable
difference in power between the corded and cordless?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/20/15 8:31 AM, Leon wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>
>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
>> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So even
>> though it probably will, I would like this thread to not quickly
>> escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over again too
>> many times already, HF multitool debate. :-)
>> After probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but
>> I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>>
>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it. Plus,
>> it's so fricken loud!!!
>> 2. The new oscillating tools I've seen have a quick release and that's
>> very appealing to me.
>> 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform better. After
>> using the HF for so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine
>> if this is the case.
>>
>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions about
>> oscillating tools from those who have actually used them.
>> I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
>> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be convinced.
>>
>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters or
>> already accept all blades.
>>
>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
>> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
>> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
>> with those.
>>
>
>
> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>

I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
the ship!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/20/15 9:31 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 9/19/2015 11:11 PM, krw wrote:
>> On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 11:52:05 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
>>> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>>>
> [snip]
>
>>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
>>> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an oscillating
>>> tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so I'm sticking
>>> with those.
>>
>>
>> Of course, nothing but Festool! ;-)
>>
>> Now that we got that out of the way... ;-)
>> I own a Dremel corded and a Bosch cordless oscillating saw. Of the
>> two, I use the cordless one at least 10:1 over the corded saw.
>>
>> I looked at the Fein a year or so ago (they had a demo at Woodcraft)
>> and was impressed. The price wasn't all that bad, anymore, either. If
>> I were buying again, I'd probably buy the Fein instead of the Dremmel
>> but I'd still be using the Bosch ten times as often as the Fein.
>
> A Huge +1 on the Bosch Cordless. It is my first and only (had it about
> 6 years now, maybe a bit more) oscillating multi-tool.
>
> My only complaint is that I waited so long to buy it - or any multi-tool.
>
> I've used it, abused it, and have even been amused (by all the things I
> can do with it to save me time and energy) by it.
>
> As I have no basis for comparison I would only say that if it crapped
> out or was stolen tomorrow, I cannot think of any reason to look further
> than the Bosch. It does everything it claims to do, everything I want
> it to do (and I'm constantly finding new uses for it), and does it well.
>
> Double +1 for ANY brand CORDLESS multi-tool. You aren't building a
> house with this thing, you're either repairing, remodeling or putting a
> finishing touch on something. With two batteries available, I've never
> had downtime waiting for a recharge and can count on one hand the number
> of times I needed a recharge to finish a job.
>

Good info. Thanks!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/20/15 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 11:02:32 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 9/20/15 8:31 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened
>>>> up, but we'll see if I can though this with any actual
>>>> information. :-D
>>>>
>>>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is
>>>> well documented in here that I have been its staunchest
>>>> defender. So even though it probably will, I would like this
>>>> thread to not quickly escalate into the same, tired, old,
>>>> rehashed over and over again too many times already, HF
>>>> multitool debate. :-) After probably eight years with the
>>>> thing, it's still going strong, but I'm looking to upgrade for
>>>> a few reasons.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on
>>>> it. Plus, it's so fricken loud!!! 2. The new oscillating
>>>> tools I've seen have a quick release and that's very appealing
>>>> to me. 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform
>>>> better. After using the HF for so long, I think I will able to
>>>> very quickly determine if this is the case.
>>>>
>>>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like
>>>> opinions about oscillating tools from those who have actually
>>>> used them. I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool
>>>> blade release, and probably NOT battery operated, although I
>>>> might be able to be convinced.
>>>>
>>>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have
>>>> adapters or already accept all blades.
>>>>
>>>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a
>>>> close second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on
>>>> an oscillating tool. All the other brands have options under
>>>> $150, so I'm sticking with those.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I
>>> have a Fein and truly wish it had the quick release and notched
>>> index blade setup. I find that the easier the tool is to setup
>>> the more I use it. Mine is the older design that requires the odd
>>> hex wrench to replace attachments and ir adjust attachments.
>>> Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm
>> driving the ship!
>
> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its
> weakness.
>

Now you've done it. Crap, that thing uses the batteries I already have
for my Bosch drill. BTW, the new ones have a tool-less, instant change
mechanism.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

J. Clarke wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
>> Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>> I looked at the Jet, which Rockler put on sale once this year at
>>>> $389. I though that it made the sub-$200 options look over-priced.
>>>> YMMV.
>>> Somewhat confused by what you're trying to say here Bill.
>> Mike, I meant I would recommend someone take a look at it before ruling
>> it out because of the price. It appears to offer quite a bit of "bang
>> for the buck". The sub-$200 look like "mere appliances" in
>> comparison. That said, I haven't contributed anything to the Festool
>> thread...we all have our limitations! : )
> Bill, for $389 you can just buy the damn Festool and be done with it (it
> says "Fein Supercut" on it but it's the same tool and takes all the same
> accessories).
>
> There just isn't any more "bang" to be had in this kind of tool for any
> amount of bucks.
>
> But I don't see an oscillating tool from Jet on either the Rockler or
> the Jet site.
>
> Here's the kind of tool we're talking about
> <http://www.coastaltool.com/a/fein/fmm350q-systainer.htm>


My bad (sorry). I thought you were talking about an *oscillating
sander*. I have a variable speed "oscillating tool" from Menards which
cost me about $35, I think. I have found it handy in trimming shims and
the bottoms of door frames.

Bill wrote:

> My bad (sorry). I thought you were talking about an *oscillating
> sander*. I have a variable speed "oscillating tool" from Menards
> which cost me about $35, I think. I have found it handy in trimming
> shims and the bottoms of door frames.

Just keep using it Bill - you will find that the list of useful purposes for
these tools just magically keeps growing. Makes ya wonder why it took so
long for them to develop it.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

I have little use for one of these, as my remodeling days are long gone,
I thought. My wife forced me into gutting our bathroom and I borrowed
my buddies HF multi-tool to cut the door moldings to accommodate the new
ceramic tile floor. It was really loud, but worked fine. Later, I was
at HF to get some cheap batteries on sale, and they had the Multi-tool
on sale for a price I couldn't pass up. Anyway, I did actually use the
thing twice, and it worked fine, but, it was MUCH quieter than my
buddies. Not sure if it was because it was new, or not used much. My
buddy said he used his a lot, which I doubt.

If you seldom use it, I would get the HF. If you use it a lot, I'd
spend 10x's as much and get a decent one. If you make a living using
this on a daily basis, use your best judgement. I think they changed
the way the blades mount from the old ones, but I can't say for sure.
I was watching a contractor use one, not sure what brand, but it was
loud as hell, so don't count on any of them being too quiet.

I have 2 HF tools, this thing, which I rarely use, an air pin
nailer/staple gun which I also seldom use, but it works when I use it.
If it weren't for HF, I wouldn't own either of these tools, but they
almost give them away.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

On 9/19/15 11:52 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up, but
> we'll see if I can though this with any actual information. :-D
>
> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is well
> documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender. So
> even though it probably will, I would like this thread to not
> quickly escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and over
> again too many times already, HF multitool debate. :-) After
> probably eight years with the thing, it's still going strong, but I'm
> looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>
> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on it.
> Plus, it's so fricken loud!!! 2. The new oscillating tools I've seen
> have a quick release and that's very appealing to me. 3. I'm hoping
> the brand name tools actually perform better. After using the HF for
> so long, I think I will able to very quickly determine if this is the
> case.
>
> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like opinions
> about oscillating tools from those who have actually used them. I'm
> looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool blade release, and
> probably NOT battery operated, although I might be able to be
> convinced.
>
> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters or
> already accept all blades.
>
> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a close
> second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an
> oscillating tool. All the other brands have options under $150, so
> I'm sticking with those.
>

On a whim, I bought the Fein 350Q for $200 and WOW.... just wow.
As for my criteria...
It's remarkably quiet for an oscillating multitool.
No discernible heat whatsoever.
The quick release is a thing of beauty. So easy and fast, it is no
longer even a second thought whether to reposition or change blades. I
just do it. It's about as fast as changing hand position.
As for performing better than the HF. Well, it costs 15x as much and
easily performs 15x as well, as I always suspected. I'm still just as
much an advocate of the HF because it does very well and for the price,
it does a whole lot better than it should. But I'm very happy I finally
bought a *real* multitool. But the Fein cut much faster, much cleaner,
and is much better to use.

Pleasant surprises about the Fein:
SOFT Start! I had no idea it did this and wouldn't want it any other
way. There are so many advantages to this.
Virtually vibration free! My hands used to get a bit numb with the HF
after continued use. With the Fein, you almost don't know it's on and
it hardly moves if you set it down while running.
I mentioned it's much quieter.
The 17ft. cord! One of you mention not liking it and Karl mentioned
liking it... well, I'm with Karl in this one. I always needed to have
an extension cord with the HF but I don't think I'll ever use one with
the Fein. It's a very high quality, braided sheathed, cable so I don't
see it getting kinked up any time soon.
It's smaller around than the others I looked at. Not a whole lot, but
it's a lot when you hold it and have to maneuver it. I don't have big
gorilla hands, so it's an advantage for me when using it.
It takes Dremel and Ridgid blades (and likely others). Using only their
own blades was a big issue when the Fein first stormed the market, but
things seemed to have changed and blades are more universal.

I'm actually still thinking about the cordless Bosch, but I needed to
use this today and no local stores carry the Bosch. But if I end up
keeping the Fein (or returning it and getting the deal at coastaltool),
I don't think I'll ever look back.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 9/25/15 12:54 AM, Leon wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 9/19/15 11:52 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> I know this group and what a huge can of worms I just opened up,
>>> but we'll see if I can though this with any actual information.
>>> :-D
>>>
>>> I have the Harbor Freight and I wrote the book on it. It is
>>> well documented in here that I have been its staunchest defender.
>>> So even though it probably will, I would like this thread to not
>>> quickly escalate into the same, tired, old, rehashed over and
>>> over again too many times already, HF multitool debate. :-)
>>> After probably eight years with the thing, it's still going
>>> strong, but I'm looking to upgrade for a few reasons.
>>>
>>> 1. Noise & Heat. The HF gets so hot you could fry an egg on
>>> it. Plus, it's so fricken loud!!! 2. The new oscillating tools
>>> I've seen have a quick release and that's very appealing to me.
>>> 3. I'm hoping the brand name tools actually perform better.
>>> After using the HF for so long, I think I will able to very
>>> quickly determine if this is the case.
>>>
>>> So again, this may a be futile request, but I would like
>>> opinions about oscillating tools from those who have actually
>>> used them. I'm looking for quieter, cooler, faster, non-tool
>>> blade release, and probably NOT battery operated, although I
>>> might be able to be convinced.
>>>
>>> Blade universality isn't that important since most have adapters
>>> or already accept all blades.
>>>
>>> LAST THING: I already know Festool is the best and Fein is a
>>> close second. But I don't have six hundred bucks to spend on an
>>> oscillating tool. All the other brands have options under $150,
>>> so I'm sticking with those.
>>>
>>
>> On a whim, I bought the Fein 350Q for $200 and WOW.... just wow. As
>> for my criteria... It's remarkably quiet for an oscillating
>> multitool. No discernible heat whatsoever. The quick release is a
>> thing of beauty. So easy and fast, it is no longer even a second
>> thought whether to reposition or change blades. I just do it.
>> It's about as fast as changing hand position. As for performing
>> better than the HF. Well, it costs 15x as much and easily performs
>> 15x as well, as I always suspected. I'm still just as much an
>> advocate of the HF because it does very well and for the price, it
>> does a whole lot better than it should. But I'm very happy I
>> finally bought a *real* multitool. But the Fein cut much faster,
>> much cleaner, and is much better to use.
>>
>> Pleasant surprises about the Fein: SOFT Start! I had no idea it
>> did this and wouldn't want it any other way. There are so many
>> advantages to this. Virtually vibration free! My hands used to get
>> a bit numb with the HF after continued use. With the Fein, you
>> almost don't know it's on and it hardly moves if you set it down
>> while running. I mentioned it's much quieter. The 17ft. cord! One
>> of you mention not liking it and Karl mentioned liking it... well,
>> I'm with Karl in this one. I always needed to have an extension
>> cord with the HF but I don't think I'll ever use one with the Fein.
>> It's a very high quality, braided sheathed, cable so I don't see it
>> getting kinked up any time soon. It's smaller around than the
>> others I looked at. Not a whole lot, but it's a lot when you hold
>> it and have to maneuver it. I don't have big gorilla hands, so
>> it's an advantage for me when using it. It takes Dremel and Ridgid
>> blades (and likely others). Using only their own blades was a big
>> issue when the Fein first stormed the market, but things seemed to
>> have changed and blades are more universal.
>>
>> I'm actually still thinking about the cordless Bosch, but I needed
>> to use this today and no local stores carry the Bosch. But if I
>> end up keeping the Fein (or returning it and getting the deal at
>> coastaltool), I don't think I'll ever look back.
>>
>
>
> Soooo, you like it? :-) FWIW. The blades for that thing 7-8 years
> ago were a minimum of a about $37.00 each. Now that Fein finally has
> some competition there are a lot of options for blades. You might
> want to also look at Imperial for replacement blades, I understand
> that they are good and make blades for most any multi tool brand. I
> have not yet tried them, I wonder if anyone here has ant experience
> with them.
>

Our local Home Depot has a full selection of most brands. The Fein's
seem to have come down in price and there are others that are cheaper,
like Ridgid and Dremel.

It's nice to be able to run in and get blades on the go.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:07:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 9/20/2015 11:16 AM, krw wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>>>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>>>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>>>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>>>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>>> the ship!
>>
>> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
>> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.
>>
>
>I think cordless makes a lot of sense for tools with regular use and
>certainly they are more convenient.
>
>I prefer corded for a tool that does not see a lot of action.

Why? If you're worried about battery self-discharge, LiIon all but
solved that problem. They have a half-life of something like two
years. Multiple tools using the same batteries also mitigate any such
problems.
>
>In the mid 80's my wife gave me a right angle 1/4" reversible Makita
>cordless drill. It did not see a lot of use and therefore after it was
>3~4 years old the battery always had to be recharged before use.

I probably have the same drill. It wasn't a huge issue because I also
had a drill and 3-3/8" circular saw using the same batteries. The
batteries didn't last all that long and were expensive, so replaced
the drill. If I need the right-angle drill or cut off saw, I'll need
to buy new batteries anyway. ...and the next time. ...and the next.

>The tool that gets about the same amount of use is my corded Fein
>Multimaster. I'm certainly glad it is corded and only for that reason.

But LiIon batteries don't have a rapid discharge. Even if you don't
use it for a year, it'll still have something more than half charge.
>
>Now let me backpedal.
>
>I build a lot. I use my Domino extensively. I use the Domino to
>reinforce the rabbit joints on drawers with a minimum of 2 on each
>corner of each drawer. Day before yesterday I plunge cut 48 mortises
>after gluing up the drawers to reinforce the joints. The plunge with
>the 5mm bit is limited to less than the length of the 5mm domino tenon.
>
>If I do not shorten the tenons before hammering them in they have to be
>cut after the fact.
>
>Doing this with the TS is possible but you get tenons ends flying out
>like bullets all over the shop. You have limited capacity of doing this
>with the BS. This leaves cutting with a Japanese saw which takes way
>too long. You can sand them down but shortening half an inch of tenon
>tends to tear up the sand paper quickly.
>
>The solution that I have repeated is to use my 12" disk sander to
>quickly shorten the length of the tenons before hammering them in to the
>mortises. Still this is imprecise and you often end up with a few that
>stand tall and I tear my disk sand paper.
>
>Given all the steps start to finish to reinforce drawer joints with
>Domino tenons I was considering making all future drawers with box
>joints or DT's. These are more trouble than plain old rabbit joints but
>probably faster and less trouble than using the Domino tenons, consider
>all the steps involved.
>
>Then, day before yesterday I thought about my Fein multimeter.
>On this time with the 48 tenons on the 6 drawers I put them in full
>length and there fore eliminated having to shorten them on the disk
>sander and trimmed all of them just a hair proud of flush after
>hammering them in.
>
>Daaaaamn, 2~3 seconds per tenon and very little cleanup sanding at all.
>
>It only took me about 115 drawers to figure that out. But who is counting?
>
>Rambling on, maybe I'll sell my Fein Multimaster and get a cordless one
>with the tool-less feature. Naaaaaaa. ;~)

;-)

For that use, I probably wouldn't mind a corded tool. All of the work
is being done in the shop and there is already plenty of power around.
Multi-tools tend to be used all over the house, though. It's nice to
not have to haul extension cords around. For many jobs, hauling
everything out and putting it away takes half the time.

Last week I was putting fold-down extensions on my down spouts. I
needed to trim about 10" off the downspouts, add the splash blocks,
and rivet the mess back together. Hauling an extension cord around
the house would have been a PITA. I have cordless drills for this
reason, the cordless multi-tool is a perfect match. I also have a
small circular saw, for the same reason. I'll probably get a cordless
saber or reciprocating saw one of these days, too.
>
>The Multimaster has certainly been a life saver and that can pay for the
>tool with only a few times of use but now I will no longer be sanding
>those tenons to length.
>
How about cutting them to length before use?

On 9/19/2015 11:47 PM, Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> I looked at the Jet, which Rockler put on sale once this year at
>>> $389. I though that it made the sub-$200 options look over-priced.
>>> YMMV.
>> Somewhat confused by what you're trying to say here Bill.
> Mike, I meant I would recommend someone take a look at it before ruling
> it out because of the price. It appears to offer quite a bit of "bang
> for the buck". The sub-$200 look like "mere appliances" in comparison.




> That said, I haven't contributed anything to the Festool thread...we all
> have our limitations! : )


Ah come on Bill, I think I remember one of your threads going on and on
about whether to start a screw with your fingers or a screw driver. ;~)

Just kidding.

On 9/20/2015 11:16 AM, krw wrote:

>>>
>>> Ease of use and setup makes a tool more likely to be used. I have a Fein
>>> and truly wish it had the quick release and notched index blade setup. I
>>> find that the easier the tool is to setup the more I use it. Mine is the
>>> older design that requires the odd hex wrench to replace attachments and ir
>>> adjust attachments. Other than that it operated very smoothly.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not only in the "ease of setup and use" boat with you, I'm driving
>> the ship!
>
> Which is the whole reason behind cordless tools. The Bosch
> oscillating tool uses a hex screw to hold on the blade - its weakness.
>

I think cordless makes a lot of sense for tools with regular use and
certainly they are more convenient.

I prefer corded for a tool that does not see a lot of action.

In the mid 80's my wife gave me a right angle 1/4" reversible Makita
cordless drill. It did not see a lot of use and therefore after it was
3~4 years old the battery always had to be recharged before use.

The tool that gets about the same amount of use is my corded Fein
Multimaster. I'm certainly glad it is corded and only for that reason.

Now let me backpedal.

I build a lot. I use my Domino extensively. I use the Domino to
reinforce the rabbit joints on drawers with a minimum of 2 on each
corner of each drawer. Day before yesterday I plunge cut 48 mortises
after gluing up the drawers to reinforce the joints. The plunge with
the 5mm bit is limited to less than the length of the 5mm domino tenon.

If I do not shorten the tenons before hammering them in they have to be
cut after the fact.

Doing this with the TS is possible but you get tenons ends flying out
like bullets all over the shop. You have limited capacity of doing this
with the BS. This leaves cutting with a Japanese saw which takes way
too long. You can sand them down but shortening half an inch of tenon
tends to tear up the sand paper quickly.

The solution that I have repeated is to use my 12" disk sander to
quickly shorten the length of the tenons before hammering them in to the
mortises. Still this is imprecise and you often end up with a few that
stand tall and I tear my disk sand paper.

Given all the steps start to finish to reinforce drawer joints with
Domino tenons I was considering making all future drawers with box
joints or DT's. These are more trouble than plain old rabbit joints but
probably faster and less trouble than using the Domino tenons, consider
all the steps involved.

Then, day before yesterday I thought about my Fein multimeter.
On this time with the 48 tenons on the 6 drawers I put them in full
length and there fore eliminated having to shorten them on the disk
sander and trimmed all of them just a hair proud of flush after
hammering them in.

Daaaaamn, 2~3 seconds per tenon and very little cleanup sanding at all.

It only took me about 115 drawers to figure that out. But who is counting?

Rambling on, maybe I'll sell my Fein Multimaster and get a cordless one
with the tool-less feature. Naaaaaaa. ;~)

The Multimaster has certainly been a life saver and that can pay for the
tool with only a few times of use but now I will no longer be sanding
those tenons to length.