If you are going to buy a new TS in the near future and think that
there are too many safety devices on the TS's now, you better buy one now
before the UL regulations require the new TS's to be equipped with a riving
knife.
For the rest of us, this is probably good news.
The bait has been cast. ;~)
http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/PermaLink%2Cguid%2C9b634723-de5d-426f-b372-2c034afd30b9.aspx
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "David Starr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Just out of curiosity, how does one cut a dado in the EU?
>
> With a router.
>
>> And why do they think a dado is more hazardous than just a blade?
>
> Since you can't see the blade, people have been know to push the wood
> through with their hand on top of the wood where the blade can come
> through or they can push it past the blade while part of their hand is
> hanging over. This type of accident has happened on router tables also.
I know a guy with a commercial shop who dadoed one of his ring fingers off
completely... I keep that in mind whenever I make blind cuts.
Long ago I started using a Biesemeyer T-Square Anti-kickback Splitter on my
saws. The ability to easily remove and replace it encourages use. The
factory splitters are too much of a hassle...
John
On 21 Jul, 14:55, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you are going to buy a new TS in the near future and think that
> there are too many safety devices on the TS's now, you better buy one now
> before the UL regulations require the new TS's to be equipped with a riving
> knife.
>
Another thing to look at carefully is that TS in the UK now have the
safety guard fitted to the top of the riving knive. This means that
you can only ose the TS for cutting completely through the wood. I
suggest that if this is the case then you should get a second knive
and adapt it so you can, if required just cut slots in wood or for
cutting the lid on a box.
>From what I can see, the decision makers have made a catch-all
decision without any consultation with the people who use the tools.
Leon, (or others)
(and please be kind to me if you think my question is rooted in
ignorance)
Are riving knives any safer than removable splitters? I know that
they sit closer to the back of the blade tha a splitter - like my
Biesemeyer - but aside from that, what makes them better?
Marc
On Jul 21, 9:55 am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you are going to buy a new TS in the near future and think that
> there are too many safety devices on the TS's now, you better buy one now
> before the UL regulations require the new TS's to be equipped with a riving
> knife.
>
> For the rest of us, this is probably good news.
>
> The bait has been cast. ;~)
>
> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/PermaLink%2Cguid%2C9b...
On Jul 21, 3:47?pm, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
> > If you are going to buy a new TS in the near future and think that
> > there are too many safety devices on the TS's now, you better buy one now
> > before the UL regulations require the new TS's to be equipped with a riving
> > knife.
>
> > For the rest of us, this is probably good news.
>
> > The bait has been cast. ;~)
>
> About freakin' time. Won't keep you from cutting off a finger or
> two,
> but will go a long way towards reducing the number of kickbacks and
> projectile wood. Hopefully they'll include a thin kerf and regular
> kerf
> riving knife with each new saw. Not sure what they'll come up with
> for stacked dado blades - which is why the Euro equivalent of OSHA
> doesn't allow table saws to hold stacked dado blades.
>
> charlie b
There seems to be a certain amount of confusion on that last point,
Charlie. Stacked cutters are certainly available here (see
http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/8in-safety-dado-set-30mm-bore
) from several sources. I had heard on a woodworking program here
that as long as the arbor on the TS was long enough to accomodate the
cutters, then the set could be used. Can't find any definitive
answers yet.
FoggyTown
On Jul 21, 10:47 am, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
> > If you are going to buy a new TS in the near future and think that
> > there are too many safety devices on the TS's now, you better buy one now
> > before the UL regulations require the new TS's to be equipped with a riving
> > knife.
>
> > For the rest of us, this is probably good news.
>
> > The bait has been cast. ;~)
>
> About freakin' time. Won't keep you from cutting off a finger or
> two,
> but will go a long way towards reducing the number of kickbacks and
> projectile wood. Hopefully they'll include a thin kerf and regular
> kerf
> riving knife with each new saw. Not sure what they'll come up with
> for stacked dado blades - which is why the Euro equivalent of OSHA
> doesn't allow table saws to hold stacked dado blades.
>
> charlie b
Kickback ceased being a problem after I upgraded to a t-square
fence and aligned it dead on parallel to the blade. Helps also to
never
leave a rip hanging between the fence and the heel of the blade.
As for taking off fingers, note that the front of the blade is less
likely to pull your hand in than the heel of the blade.
On Jul 22, 1:42 pm, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > Kickback ceased being a problem after I upgraded to a t-square
> > fence and aligned it dead on parallel to the blade.
>
> Completely untrue. A properly aligned fence can go a long way to preventing
> kickbacks, but it certainly does not entirely eliminate the possibility of
> it happening. Kickbacks can happen for other reasons than fence
> misalignment.
Most of those reasons having to do with the rising back end of the
blade, which that sharkfin shaped riving knife is designed to
address.
Honestly, though, the day I got my Biesemeyer dead aligned (with the
help of a dial indicator) is the day kickback stopped.
On 22 Jul, 11:52, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "David Starr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > And why do they think a dado is more hazardous than just a blade?
>
> Since you can't see the blade, people have been know to push the wood
> through with their hand on top of the wood where the blade can come through
> or they can push it past the blade while part of their hand is hanging over.
The UK HSE recommendation for avoiding this is the use of "Shaw
guards" or "tunnel guards".
They're illustrated here:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis16.pdf
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis17.pdf
Although they're not simple to construct (as an adjustable guard) and
probably require both welding and drilled attachments to the machine
table, they're worth having. Once you have them, they're certainly
worth using. You can also lash-up a one-off for long batches, even if
you don't make a neatly adjustable version.
The woodworking index of the HSE site is here:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/woodindx.htm
it's well worth the look.
On Jul 22, 10:51 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Jul 22, 1:42 pm, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >> > Kickback ceased being a problem after I upgraded to a t-square
> >> > fence and aligned it dead on parallel to the blade.
>
> >> Completely untrue. A properly aligned fence can go a long way to
> >> preventing
> >> kickbacks, but it certainly does not entirely eliminate the possibility
> >> of
> >> it happening. Kickbacks can happen for other reasons than fence
> >> misalignment.
>
> > Most of those reasons having to do with the rising back end of the
> > blade, which that sharkfin shaped riving knife is designed to
> > address.
> > Honestly, though, the day I got my Biesemeyer dead aligned (with the
> > help of a dial indicator) is the day kickback stopped.
>
> You still need to be cautious. If the board starts to close up behind the
> blade it can still pinch the blade and be thrown back at you. A heavy hand
> will help to prevent this but a dead parallel fence will not help in this
> matter.
What type of pusher are you using? The push stick recommended in
the operator's manual is worthless, because it holds down the
trailing
end of the board, opposite the heel end where kickback forces are
generated. Use a shoe type, with healthy grip to give you the
best fighting chance once the kerf starts going wacky.
On Jul 22, 4:16 pm, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Father Haskell wrote:
> > As for taking off fingers, note that the front of the blade is less
> > likely to pull your hand in than the heel of the blade.
>
> That seems counter intuitive. The rear quarter of the
> blade has teeth pushing UP and at some point FOREWARD.
> The top front quadrant is pushing up and at some point
> DOWNWARD. Could you explain more please?
Look at a sawblade with positive rake. Very similar to a line
of fishhooks, right? Remember why you're never supposed
to reach over a spinning blade?
Is there a riving knife available for a delta contractor saw. I was
going to buy a couple of MJ stainless slitters from Peachtree. One for
a throat plate with the blade all the way up 3.25" +- and one for the
blade up 1".I now use a gripper for small parts and grip tite mag
units when ripping long parts.
Leon wrote:
> If you are going to buy a new TS in the near future and think that
> there are too many safety devices on the TS's now, you better buy one now
> before the UL regulations require the new TS's to be equipped with a riving
> knife.
>
> For the rest of us, this is probably good news.
>
> The bait has been cast. ;~)
>
> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/PermaLink%2Cguid%2C9b634723-de5d-426f-b372-2c034afd30b9.aspx
>
Since when does UL write binding rules?
It is a private company that inspects merchandise for insurance
purposes. It is not a government agency.
Dang ... the hook fell off the line ... lookit that, Vern!
--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com
---
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Virus Database (VPS): 000758-3, 07/22/2007
Tested on: 7/22/2007 2:12:31 PM
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http://www.avast.com
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message>
> I have never used a riving knife but many will raise and lower with the
> blade. Safer? I don't know.
My guess is that they're safer than a splitter. As well as some raising and
lowering with the blade, they usually match the curvature of the blade.
Seems to be a much more encompassing protection against kickback.
Leon wrote:
>
> If you are going to buy a new TS in the near future and think that
> there are too many safety devices on the TS's now, you better buy one now
> before the UL regulations require the new TS's to be equipped with a riving
> knife.
>
> For the rest of us, this is probably good news.
>
> The bait has been cast. ;~)
About freakin' time. Won't keep you from cutting off a finger or
two,
but will go a long way towards reducing the number of kickbacks and
projectile wood. Hopefully they'll include a thin kerf and regular
kerf
riving knife with each new saw. Not sure what they'll come up with
for stacked dado blades - which is why the Euro equivalent of OSHA
doesn't allow table saws to hold stacked dado blades.
charlie b
[email protected] wrote:
> I'm confused, why would I need a riving knife to cut dados?
You don't. The riving knife keeps the kerf open behind the blade
so it can't close and make contact with the rear teeth - the
ones that typcially start a kickback.
Separate issue - dados - the EU OSHA doesn't allow "blind cuts"
on a table saw - that is cuts like rabbets/rebates and dados.
charlie b
Leon wrote:
> I have never used a riving knife but many will raise and lower with the
> blade. Safer? I don't know.
Look at the second picture on this page.
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/X31/X31.html
Note that the riving knife
a) is close the the blade and wraps around almost all of the
top rear quarter of the blade - where the teeth that
typically start a kickback are located
b) is attached to the saw arbor so as the blade is raised or
lowered - or tilted, the riving knife stays close to the blade
A splitter on the other hand is often
a) increases the distance between it and the back of the blade
as the depth of cut gets smaller
b) may or may not follow the blade when it's tilted
(the ones attached to the throat plate don't work when
the blade is tilted)
charlie b
Father Haskell wrote:
> Kickback ceased being a problem after I upgraded to a t-square
> fence and aligned it dead on parallel to the blade.
That'll take care of ONE potential causes of kickbacks.
There are several more causes, some not so obvious.
Ever had a board you're ripping "cross its legs" - behind
the blade? How about having it "spread its legs" behind the
blade - and push the back INTO the rear teeth - the ones
coming UP out of the throat plate that'll try and lift the
board UP into the teeth spinning TOWARDS YOU?
Being one who doesn't enjoy having wood try and kill me,
I did a bit of research and some thinking and then put
together the following for my own use. Figured once
I'd done that the info might save someone else some
grief so I put them on my site. Guess it's time to post
the url to that stuff.
http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/KickBack/KickBack1.html
> Helps also to
> never leave a rip hanging between the fence and the heel of the blade.
Or have a long unsupported board tilt up off the back of the
table saw - raising the end up into the KILLER REAR TEETH.
Also not a good idea to be ripping a long board and have it
stopped by some obstruction behind the saw. Hard to keep
control of the board AND find the OFF switch.
How about if the back of your throat plate is just a hair
lower than the table top - AND the part you're ripping
deforms DOWN and the edge catches in that little step
between the table top and the back of the throat plate?
> As for taking off fingers, note that the front of the blade is less
> likely to pull your hand in than the heel of the blade.
That seems counter intuitive. The rear quarter of the
blade has teeth pushing UP and at some point FOREWARD.
The top front quadrant is pushing up and at some point
DOWNWARD. Could you explain more please?
charlie b
Though the term "kickback" is often used to describe
a table saw flinging a piece of wood and the type that
launches it straight back paralleling the sides of the
saw blade(the Spear kickback) is the one most obvious
one, the Flip and Fling is the one that can go almost
anywhere that's not behind the blade.
The Flip and Fling involves ripping short pieces - about
the length of the exposed blade above the throat plate.
The part, being short, can rotate, even into the small
gap between the rear teeth and a riving knife, and make
contact with an uprward traveling rear tooth. This
begins to lift the short piece off the table - and away
from the fence. Once that begins, the part is thrown
up into the upper teeth which can flip the part just
about anywhere - including left and right of the center
line of the arbor shaft. Kelly Mahler (I think that's the
spelling) uses a piece of styra foam sheet to demon-
strate the Flip and Fling. People are amazed at where
the Flipped and Flung piece goes.
Bottom line is
Proper Stock Preparation
Proper Saw Set Up
and
Control The Stock
If what you're about to do makes you feel
uncomfortable there's probably a reason.
Try and come up with another way of doing
the operation.
charlie b
Leuf wrote:
> I know this is not technically advisable, but this is how I handle
> short pieces, where short is less than twice the length of the blade,
> that are too narrow to allow me to run my hand between blade and
> fence. Cut in half way, pull back out, flip end for end, cut the rest
> of the way. The stock never reaches the rear teeth so there is no
> chance of a kickback, and I would just prefer to have my hands on the
> stock rather than any other contraption for holding it otherwise
> whenever possible.
Might want to check out The GRIPPERRRRR. Works really well
ripping narrow and / or short pieces. Keeps your hand well
above the blade and controls the stock ON BOTH SIDES OF THE
CUT.
OR
you can make something similar out of scraps - and add a
screen door handle to the top of it.
charlie b
charlieb wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>> I'm confused, why would I need a riving knife to cut dados?
>
> You don't. The riving knife keeps the kerf open behind the blade
> so it can't close and make contact with the rear teeth - the
> ones that typcially start a kickback.
>
> Separate issue - dados - the EU OSHA doesn't allow "blind cuts"
> on a table saw - that is cuts like rabbets/rebates and dados.
>
> charlie b
Just out of curiosity, how does one cut a dado in the EU? And stay
in compliance with the safety regs? And why do they think a dado is
more hazardous than just a blade?
David Starr
"> Since when does UL write binding rules?
>
> It is a private company that inspects merchandise for insurance purposes.
> It is not a government agency.
>
> Dang ... the hook fell off the line ... lookit that, Vern!
>
True, and on certain and many jobsites, the tools have to be UL listed for
the insurance coverage of the site ( workman's comp, liability, etc). I was
working on a hotel recently in which the tile guy was temporarily kicked off
for not having a UL listed tile saw. I would imagine that the same could be
held to be true in wood working shops that employ as well. Insurance
companies denying coverage or raising premiums sky high because you aren't
using a UL listed saw.
Allen
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:33:59 -0700, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
>Though the term "kickback" is often used to describe
>a table saw flinging a piece of wood and the type that
>launches it straight back paralleling the sides of the
>saw blade(the Spear kickback) is the one most obvious
>one, the Flip and Fling is the one that can go almost
>anywhere that's not behind the blade.
>
>The Flip and Fling involves ripping short pieces - about
>the length of the exposed blade above the throat plate.
>The part, being short, can rotate, even into the small
>gap between the rear teeth and a riving knife, and make
>contact with an uprward traveling rear tooth. This
>begins to lift the short piece off the table - and away
>from the fence. Once that begins, the part is thrown
>up into the upper teeth which can flip the part just
>about anywhere - including left and right of the center
>line of the arbor shaft. Kelly Mahler (I think that's the
>spelling) uses a piece of styra foam sheet to demon-
>strate the Flip and Fling. People are amazed at where
>the Flipped and Flung piece goes.
>
>Bottom line is
>Proper Stock Preparation
>Proper Saw Set Up
>and
>Control The Stock
>
>If what you're about to do makes you feel
>uncomfortable there's probably a reason.
>Try and come up with another way of doing
>the operation.
>
>charlie b
Great info, Charlie!
Also another reason for a good sled... I used to just use a sled for cross
cutting but have started using one for ripping small or short pieces, also..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:15:17 -0700, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
>Leon wrote:
>
>> I have never used a riving knife but many will raise and lower with the
>> blade. Safer? I don't know.
>
> Look at the second picture on this page.
>http://web.hypersurf.com/~charlie2/X31/X31.html
> Note that the riving knife
> a) is close the the blade and wraps around almost all of the
> top rear quarter of the blade - where the teeth that
> typically start a kickback are located
> b) is attached to the saw arbor so as the blade is raised or
> lowered - or tilted, the riving knife stays close to the blade
>
> A splitter on the other hand is often
> a) increases the distance between it and the back of the blade
> as the depth of cut gets smaller
> b) may or may not follow the blade when it's tilted
> (the ones attached to the throat plate don't work when
> the blade is tilted)
>
> charlie b
Ok... I'm getting educated here.. My saw has a splitter, not a riving knife..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
"Leuf" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> of the way. The stock never reaches the rear teeth so there is no
> chance of a kickback,
A long time ago, I experienced wood taking flight before it reached the rear
teeth. If you're running wood along the fence and it becomes skewed in
between the side of the blade and the fence, you're looking at a kick back
in the making long before the rear teeth are reached.
As far as I'm concerned, kick backs and wood being thrown is a possibility
despite most precautions. Yup, there's lots one can do to minimize those
possibilities, but knowing that it *could* happen means always adopting
protective measures and protective stances to lower those possibilities.
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 08:55:00 -0500, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> If you are going to buy a new TS in the near future and think that
>there are too many safety devices on the TS's now, you better buy one now
>before the UL regulations require the new TS's to be equipped with a riving
>knife.
>
> For the rest of us, this is probably good news.
>
> The bait has been cast. ;~)
>
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzing as that line goes flying off that reel.
Don't have a strong opinion on riving knives, never used one, however,
anything the market drives is probably OK. Anything that a regulator
requires is suspect. Keep in mind that it is not necessary to have a
UL listing to sell the product, and, I know at least a few years, ago
most of the industrial cabinet saw manufacturers did not have the
listing. UL listing used to mean some really strange and useless
restrictions. As an example, cannot manufacture a saw without a
blade. So, instead reducing the cost of the saw and of letting you
purchase the blade of your choice for your particular operation, the
manufacturer of a listed unit has to "guess" what you want and include
that (usually a cheap combo) in their offering. Another example is
that none of the very good after market guards, which are much better
than the "approved" supplied guards could be UL approved to offer as
an option with the saw as a single number package. They can be swung
out of the way for unguarded operations and will not "automatically
fall back in place"
Things may have changed.
Frank
>http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/PermaLink%2Cguid%2C9b634723-de5d-426f-b372-2c034afd30b9.aspx
>
>
"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Kickback ceased being a problem after I upgraded to a t-square
> fence and aligned it dead on parallel to the blade.
Completely untrue. A properly aligned fence can go a long way to preventing
kickbacks, but it certainly does not entirely eliminate the possibility of
it happening. Kickbacks can happen for other reasons than fence
misalignment.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message>
> I have never used a riving knife but many will raise and lower with the
> blade. Safer? I don't know.
My guess is that they're safer than a splitter. As well as some raising and
lowering with the blade, they usually match the curvature of the blade.
Seems to be a much more encompassing protection against kickback.
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 18:06:27 -0700, charlieb <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Separate issue - dados - the EU OSHA doesn't allow "blind cuts"
> on a table saw - that is cuts like rabbets/rebates and dados.
They certainly do allow them -- although they don't like them, and they
have strong recommendations on either avoiding them, or how to guard
them.
And there isn't a single EU OSHA body anyway. Each country has its own,
and they talk about harmonisation between them.
All of this stuff is _very_ well documented by a library of PDFs on the
UK HSE site.
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Still asking why anyone's standing in a place where a kickback piece could
> even get to them when cutting. Seems stupid. Stand where if it runs back
> it hits the wall, not you.
There can be mitigating circumstances. I use a wheelchair and don't have the
reach or capability to stand completely out of the way while still being
able to control the feed of a length of wood. Yeah, I could do things like
buying an automatic feeder or use other exotic machinery, but like most
woodworkers, money is not in abundant supply with me.
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Still asking why anyone's standing in a place where a kickback piece
>> could
>> even get to them when cutting. Seems stupid. Stand where if it runs
>> back
>> it hits the wall, not you.
>
> There can be mitigating circumstances. I use a wheelchair and don't have
> the
> reach or capability to stand completely out of the way while still being
> able to control the feed of a length of wood. Yeah, I could do things like
> buying an automatic feeder or use other exotic machinery, but like most
> woodworkers, money is not in abundant supply with me.
I generally agree with George regarding where you stand... it was drilled
into my head as a kid. My father had served an apprenticeship as a tool and
die maker and he passed some of the knowledge along... where to stand, don't
brush chips off with your hand (metal mindset!), don't use the side of the
grinding wheel, etc.
With the wheel chair in mind I'd certainly use something like a riving knife
or a good splitter like the Biesemeyer T-Square splitter. This as there is
no way you could get out of the way fast enough if there was a kick back nor
would you have the body leverage to control a problem piece of wood.
http://www.biesemeyer.com/safety/index.htm I've found the Biesemeyer
splitter to be helpful with reaction wood that wants to close up the kerf
during cutting. The only time I've had a problem with the splitter was when
I didn't put it back in after using the cross-cut sled because I "only have
to make one rip cut." I swear I'll never make only one cut without it again!
;~)
John
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Jul 22, 1:42 pm, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> > Kickback ceased being a problem after I upgraded to a t-square
>>> > fence and aligned it dead on parallel to the blade.
>>>
>>> Completely untrue. A properly aligned fence can go a long way to
>>> preventing
>>> kickbacks, but it certainly does not entirely eliminate the possibility
>>> of
>>> it happening. Kickbacks can happen for other reasons than fence
>>> misalignment.
>>
>> Honestly, though, the day I got my Biesemeyer dead aligned (with the
>> help of a dial indicator) is the day kickback stopped.
>>
>
>
> You still need to be cautious. If the board starts to close up behind the
> blade it can still pinch the blade and be thrown back at you. A heavy
> hand will help to prevent this but a dead parallel fence will not help in
> this matter.
Missing the point. Feed problems are one thing, WOOD problems another. I'm
one who keeps that 32nd extra on the far end of the fence, and I usually
have a featherboard in my left hand to hold the fed piece to the fence just
prior to the blade. Optimum situation which is sometimes frustrated by the
wood twisting and kerf closing as one becomes two. Most expensive fence set
with the most expensive device won't prevent problems there.
Still asking why anyone's standing in a place where a kickback piece could
even get to them when cutting. Seems stupid. Stand where if it runs back
it hits the wall, not you.
"marc rosen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon, (or others)
> (and please be kind to me if you think my question is rooted in
> ignorance)
> Are riving knives any safer than removable splitters? I know that
> they sit closer to the back of the blade tha a splitter - like my
> Biesemeyer - but aside from that, what makes them better?
>
> Marc
I have never used a riving knife but many will raise and lower with the
blade. Safer? I don't know.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm > one who keeps that 32nd extra on the far end of the fence, and I
> usually
>> have a featherboard in my left hand to hold the fed piece to the fence
>> just prior to the blade.
>
> The problem I have with that is that the waste side of the cut tends to
> come in contact with the back side of the blade. The then requires the
> waste side, "if it is going to be used as a keeper" to be run through the
> jointer to smooth the edge be fore running through the saw again.
> Properly set up you should never have to run the board through the jointer
> after a TS cut to clean up an edge.
>
Oh hogwash. If you push the piece straight ahead, it doesn't contact the
blade on the waste side. Unless you overfeed and the blade squirms. Not to
mention that it's a good practice to rip oversize to allow for a tad of
strain relief on the wood, especially where the grainis changing angles fast
relative to the surfaces.
>
> Optimum situation which is sometimes frustrated by the
>> wood twisting and kerf closing as one becomes two. Most expensive fence
>> set with the most expensive device won't prevent problems there.
>
> Agreed/
>
>>
>> Still asking why anyone's standing in a place where a kickback piece
>> could even get to them when cutting. Seems stupid. Stand where if it
>> runs back it hits the wall, not you.
>
> Where is it that you think a kick back will not get you? I have seen kick
> backs come over the top of the fence. Any where behind the blade is a
> vulnerable spot, some more than others.
>
So don't stand behind the blade, stand to the side where the switch is
located.
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> would you have the body leverage to control a problem piece of wood.
>> http://www.biesemeyer.com/safety/index.htm I've found the Biesemeyer
>> splitter to be helpful with reaction wood that wants to close up the kerf
>
> Yup, a biesemeyer type splitter is on the wish list. For now, I'm using
> the
> much cheaper Lee Valley Tools MicroJig Splitter.
> http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=51151&cat=1,41080,51225&ap=1
>
>
I use the MJ Splitter also. FIY there is a much more heavy duty version
although the microjig.com web site still does not show it. I bought the HD
version at the last WW show in April. It fits in larger holes and tapers
down to the 1/8" and 3/32" width above the table insert. The HD version is
stainless steel covered in translucent plastic.
"marc rosen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon, (or others)
> (and please be kind to me if you think my question is rooted in
> ignorance)
> Are riving knives any safer than removable splitters? I know that
> they sit closer to the back of the blade tha a splitter - like my
> Biesemeyer - but aside from that, what makes them better?
For any safety device to ultimately be effective, it needs to be more
convenient to use than not.
For that reason I would think the safety factor of a riving knife is
marginally greater, mainly because of its "convenience".
IOW, since it rises and lowers with the blade and doesn't extend over the
top of the blade, it is a lot more convenient to leave on for most type of
cuts, and if you don't have to remove it, you won't forget to put it back on
for the next cut.
You could also probably argue that a riving knife, which usually rides
closer to the back of the blade, leaves less room between it and the blade
for something to get caught in.
I'm all for their incorporation into TS technology ... wish my Uni was so
equipped.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
charlieb <[email protected]> wrote in news:46A4D877.2535
@accesscom.com:
> Though the term "kickback" is often used to describe
> a table saw flinging a piece of wood and the type that
> launches it straight back paralleling the sides of the
> saw blade(the Spear kickback) is the one most obvious
> one, the Flip and Fling is the one that can go almost
> anywhere that's not behind the blade.
>
> The Flip and Fling involves ripping short pieces - about
> the length of the exposed blade above the throat plate.
> The part, being short, can rotate, even into the small
> gap between the rear teeth and a riving knife, and make
> contact with an uprward traveling rear tooth. This
> begins to lift the short piece off the table - and away
> from the fence. Once that begins, the part is thrown
> up into the upper teeth which can flip the part just
> about anywhere - including left and right of the center
> line of the arbor shaft. Kelly Mahler (I think that's the
> spelling) uses a piece of styra foam sheet to demon-
> strate the Flip and Fling. People are amazed at where
> the Flipped and Flung piece goes.
>
<snip>
The one that caught our attention was when the wife and eldest son were
talking in the shop whilst I was trying to get the last bit of walnut
cut, and then we'd go do something 'important'. The piece that caught
the blade, flipped up and smashed the overhead light, before whacking me
on the way down changed our plans a bit.
They left the shop, while I cleaned up in the semi-dark...
Patriarch
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Missing the point. Feed problems are one thing, WOOD problems another.
Regardless, both come into play and must be delt with.
I'm > one who keeps that 32nd extra on the far end of the fence, and I
usually
> have a featherboard in my left hand to hold the fed piece to the fence
> just prior to the blade.
The problem I have with that is that the waste side of the cut tends to come
in contact with the back side of the blade. The then requires the waste
side, "if it is going to be used as a keeper" to be run through the jointer
to smooth the edge be fore running through the saw again. Properly set up
you should never have to run the board through the jointer after a TS cut to
clean up an edge.
Optimum situation which is sometimes frustrated by the
> wood twisting and kerf closing as one becomes two. Most expensive fence
> set with the most expensive device won't prevent problems there.
Agreed/
>
> Still asking why anyone's standing in a place where a kickback piece could
> even get to them when cutting. Seems stupid. Stand where if it runs back
> it hits the wall, not you.
Where is it that you think a kick back will not get you? I have seen kick
backs come over the top of the fence. Any where behind the blade is a
vulnerable spot, some more than others.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message>
> I have never used a riving knife but many will raise and lower with the
> blade. Safer? I don't know.
My guess is that they're safer than a splitter. As well as some raising and
lowering with the blade, they usually match the curvature of the blade.
Seems to be a much more encompassing protection against kickback.
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 07:47:22 -0700, charlieb <[email protected]> wrote:
> About freakin' time. Won't keep you from cutting off a finger or two, but will go a long way towards reducing the number of kickbacks and projectile wood.
>Hopefully they'll include a thin kerf and regular kerf riving knife with each new saw.
>Not sure what they'll come up with for stacked dado blades - which is why the Euro equivalent of OSHA doesn't allow table saws to hold stacked dado blades.
>
> charlie b
OH!
I was going to ask WHAT a riving knife was until I read that, Charlie...
The Ridgid TS that I bought a few months ago has one, if I'm understanding you..
and I have no problem with it at all... also has an anti-kick back spur on each
side of it, and I'm glad that they're there...
OTOH, when I'm doing dados, the whole assembly including the plastic blade guard
comes off with one wing nut, which the new regulations might not allow..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> For any safety device to ultimately be effective, it needs to be more
> convenient to use than not.
Good point. That's something that isn't mentioned too often, but it is one
of the more important factors. You can come up with all the improvements in
the world, but it they're not convenient to use, then they're mostly
discarded. As humans, we're a lazy bunch of SOB's aren't we? :)
"John Grossbohlin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> would you have the body leverage to control a problem piece of wood.
> http://www.biesemeyer.com/safety/index.htm I've found the Biesemeyer
> splitter to be helpful with reaction wood that wants to close up the kerf
Yup, a biesemeyer type splitter is on the wish list. For now, I'm using the
much cheaper Lee Valley Tools MicroJig Splitter.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=51151&cat=1,41080,51225&ap=1
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "David Starr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Just out of curiosity, how does one cut a dado in the EU?
>
> With a router.
>
>> And why do they think a dado is more hazardous than just a blade?
>
> Since you can't see the blade, people have been know to push the wood
> through with their hand on top of the wood where the blade can come through
> or they can push it past the blade while part of their hand is hanging over.
> This type of accident has happened on router tables also.
People have been known to run themselves over w/ their own automobiles,
too... :)
There's a point at which one just has to say "be careful".
imo, etc., ...
--
"David Starr" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Just out of curiosity, how does one cut a dado in the EU?
With a router.
> And why do they think a dado is more hazardous than just a blade?
Since you can't see the blade, people have been know to push the wood
through with their hand on top of the wood where the blade can come through
or they can push it past the blade while part of their hand is hanging over.
This type of accident has happened on router tables also.
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:50:52 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I'm all for their incorporation into TS technology ... wish my Uni was so
>equipped.
Same for my General.
I have yet to see a negative for a riving knife, other than the 50-60
year old designs of most of our saws.
---------------------------------------------
** http://www.bburke.com/woodworking.html **
---------------------------------------------
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:44:03 GMT, "George" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> You still need to be cautious. If the board starts to close up behind the
>> blade it can still pinch the blade and be thrown back at you. A heavy
>> hand will help to prevent this but a dead parallel fence will not help in
>> this matter.
>
>Missing the point. Feed problems are one thing, WOOD problems another. I'm
>one who keeps that 32nd extra on the far end of the fence, and I usually
>have a featherboard in my left hand to hold the fed piece to the fence just
>prior to the blade. Optimum situation which is sometimes frustrated by the
>wood twisting and kerf closing as one becomes two. Most expensive fence set
>with the most expensive device won't prevent problems there.
>
>Still asking why anyone's standing in a place where a kickback piece could
>even get to them when cutting. Seems stupid. Stand where if it runs back
>it hits the wall, not you.
Yeah, but I'd just as soon not have kickback no matter where I'm standing...
I've seen pictures of boards through shop walls, knocking things off shelves,
etc...
I can just picture kicking something back 12 or 15 feet and hitting the grill of
the truck.. lol
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 07:47:22 -0700, charlieb <[email protected]>
wrote:
> riving knife with each new saw. Not sure what they'll come up with
> for stacked dado blades - which is why the Euro equivalent of OSHA
> doesn't allow table saws to hold stacked dado blades.
That's not the reason - it's related to spin-down times with a heavy
blade stack (web search under "PUWER 98"). If you sort that problem, as
big industrial saws have, then you can use dado sets.
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 09:33:59 -0700, charlieb <[email protected]>
wrote:
>The Flip and Fling involves ripping short pieces - about
>the length of the exposed blade above the throat plate.
>The part, being short, can rotate, even into the small
>gap between the rear teeth and a riving knife, and make
>contact with an uprward traveling rear tooth. This
>begins to lift the short piece off the table - and away
>from the fence. Once that begins, the part is thrown
>up into the upper teeth which can flip the part just
>about anywhere - including left and right of the center
>line of the arbor shaft. Kelly Mahler (I think that's the
>spelling) uses a piece of styra foam sheet to demon-
>strate the Flip and Fling. People are amazed at where
>the Flipped and Flung piece goes.
I know this is not technically advisable, but this is how I handle
short pieces, where short is less than twice the length of the blade,
that are too narrow to allow me to run my hand between blade and
fence. Cut in half way, pull back out, flip end for end, cut the rest
of the way. The stock never reaches the rear teeth so there is no
chance of a kickback, and I would just prefer to have my hands on the
stock rather than any other contraption for holding it otherwise
whenever possible.
-Leuf
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 16:22:15 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> For any safety device to ultimately be effective, it needs to be more
>> convenient to use than not.
>
>Good point. That's something that isn't mentioned too often, but it is one
>of the more important factors. You can come up with all the improvements in
>the world, but it they're not convenient to use, then they're mostly
>discarded. As humans, we're a lazy bunch of SOB's aren't we? :)
>
I sure am... *g*
I remember Shopsmith sending me a metal blade shroud and DC port thingy years
ago as a safety upgrade..
Never used it because it would add at least 10 minutes to the changeover time
when you were doing anything BUT sawing...
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>>
>> I use the MJ Splitter also.
>
> My MJ's kept popping out, and eventually broke, so I switched to a
> shop-made white oak splitter glued into the zero-clearance insert. To
> remove the splitter, I swap inserts.
That is what I complained about at the WW show. That is when they pulled
out the new stainless steel reinforced version. So far So good.
Leon wrote:
> If you are going to buy a new TS in the near future and think that
> there are too many safety devices on the TS's now, you better buy one now
> before the UL regulations require the new TS's to be equipped with a riving
> knife.
>
> For the rest of us, this is probably good news.
>
> The bait has been cast. ;~)
>
> http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/editorsblog/PermaLink%2Cguid%2C9b634723-de5d-426f-b372-2c034afd30b9.aspx
>
>
>
I looks like the "requirement" is voluntary and was recommended on
January 31, 2005. See:
http://www.cpsc.gov/volstd/tablesaws/tablesaws.html
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
"Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jul 22, 1:42 pm, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Father Haskell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> > Kickback ceased being a problem after I upgraded to a t-square
>> > fence and aligned it dead on parallel to the blade.
>>
>> Completely untrue. A properly aligned fence can go a long way to
>> preventing
>> kickbacks, but it certainly does not entirely eliminate the possibility
>> of
>> it happening. Kickbacks can happen for other reasons than fence
>> misalignment.
>
> Most of those reasons having to do with the rising back end of the
> blade, which that sharkfin shaped riving knife is designed to
> address.
> Honestly, though, the day I got my Biesemeyer dead aligned (with the
> help of a dial indicator) is the day kickback stopped.
>
You still need to be cautious. If the board starts to close up behind the
blade it can still pinch the blade and be thrown back at you. A heavy hand
will help to prevent this but a dead parallel fence will not help in this
matter.
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Oh hogwash. If you push the piece straight ahead, it doesn't contact the
> blade on the waste side.
LOL If your fence is offset at the back end, you "can not" push the board
parallel to the blade.
The wood does in fact come in contact with the back side of the blade other
wise what do you accomplish by off setting the fence.
Unless you overfeed and the blade squirms. Not to
> mention that it's a good practice to rip oversize to allow for a tad of
> strain relief on the wood, especially where the grainis changing angles
> fast relative to the surfaces.
Perhap a good practice for some but I absolutely never ever cut over size
for the reason you stated.
>> Where is it that you think a kick back will not get you? I have seen
>> kick backs come over the top of the fence. Any where behind the blade is
>> a vulnerable spot, some more than others.
>>
>
> So don't stand behind the blade, stand to the side where the switch is
> located.
I have stood some 2' to the right of blade, farther away from the blade
than the switch, and have had a piece fly back at me up at a 45 degree
angle from the blade.
On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 14:29:10 -0400, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message>
>> I have never used a riving knife but many will raise and lower with the
>> blade. Safer? I don't know.
>
>My guess is that they're safer than a splitter. As well as some raising and
>lowering with the blade, they usually match the curvature of the blade.
>Seems to be a much more encompassing protection against kickback.
>
You can say that again... (and did) *g*
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> As far as I'm concerned, kick backs and wood being thrown is a possibility
> despite most precautions.
Exactly!
Yup, there's lots one can do to minimize those
> possibilities, but knowing that it *could* happen means always adopting
> protective measures and protective stances to lower those possibilities.
My #2 defense against any kind of kick back is to keep/insure a "firm" hold
on the material being cut and use sharp blades. For what ever reason I
sometimes feel the material lift and I have been able to keep the piece from
flying back by simply exerting more downward pressure. With enough pressure
the blade will simply cut into the material rather than catch it and throw
it back. I like to think of this procedure as controlling the stock rather
than poking it through with the end of a stick.
By your description. it sounds like you use similar techniques.