"HMFIC-1369" wrote in message
> Originally, I had 4 contractors bid on doing the jobs with about 14 L. Ft.
> they all came back with 25K to 35K+ figures, (refacing was 18K w/2custom
> cabinets). Honestly, I wasn't impressed with many of the Manufactured
> cabinets, in all cases you could see where they cut costs to maximize
> profits. So I examined building them, not cheap either. For quality wood,
> your still going to pay for it and then even hardware like handles and
> drawer slides are getting costly. Creating a overly costly Kitchen is easy
> too, the challenge being in doing a mid-quality level ass cheap as
possible.
> Ikea gave me the all Al/Glass cabinets I wanted, for the price of just
> outsourcing 1 set of A/G doors (550.00).....
>
> Even though I'm retired my time is more money then I first estimated and
> over 50 I don't move as quick or lift as much. What I realized was that
very
> few people when I sell the home will appreciate the cabinetry if I did it
> myself, and honestly most now would redo it they're way (and break my
> heart). As they say location location, location......
I hear you loud and clear. I am 62 and starting to feel myself slow down
also, Besides being a lot of physical work, it's almost impossible to find
help that will stick around long enough to make hiring worthwhile. On this
particular job I had one hired hand for less than 3 days during the entire
fabrication and installation. (Leon, bless his heart, cut the end panels to
spec for me and saved me both time and back.)
Cabinet work in this area, even in the most expensive homes these days, is
often done by folks from a desert climate who never saw wood until they swam
over here. While some do fair work, as a general rule the workmanship is
appalling. The contrast between my cabinets and the rest of the cabinetry in
the house speaks for itself _loudly_, and usually makes a good selling
point.
That said, I can still put a good amount of $$ in my pocket by doing some
kitchens myself, and at the same time add to the selling points of the home.
I am also fortunate to be married to a veritable blood hound when it comes
to finding quality fixtures at closeout prices, and she does all the
interior decorating to boot.
Your remarks about "appreciation" are right on ... many folks don't know
quality from K-mart these days because they've never experienced it, and the
current idea is that a kitchen cabinet's life is less than 15 years.
Makes it increasingly tougher to justify doing good work, commercially, with
that prevailing wind ...
(I am betting that is one of the reasons an obviously skilled, world class,
artisan/cabinetmaker like Tom Watson is now "retired" ... and a damn shame
that is).
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I hear you loud and clear. I am 62 and starting to feel myself slow down
> also, Besides being a lot of physical work, it's almost impossible to find
> help that will stick around long enough to make hiring worthwhile. On this
> particular job I had one hired hand for less than 3 days during the entire
> fabrication and installation.
I agree that as you get older, something like kitchen construction gets
increasingly difficult. Even I'm starting to feel it at the tender age of
51. But what about the enjoyment part of it? Admittedly, if I was building a
kitchen again, I don't have a wife urging me on to get the job finished, but
I would be doing it for the sheer enjoyment of getting exactly what I
wanted. And later on, the pride I'd feel when I was showing it off to
friends and family.
"CNT" wrote in message
> VERY NICE indeed!!!!!
Thanks ...
> Tell me, are those raised panel cabinets in "Projects7" Cathedral style
and
> the "Projects1" (Page 1) in Roman style? I am trying to figure out which
> style template to buy at this time (I have none and they are $100/set).
I am not an architect by any means, however the Project 1 doors were drawn
as what I would call an "oval" arch; whereas the latter is, I believe, more
technically described as "cathedral", although they are, purposely, fairly
gentle in that respect.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05
Advancement in technology and materials and the shortage of time will
eliminate all the Artisans. On the History Channel they had a show about
WWII British Aircraft. They made wooden bombers not so much because of metal
shortages, but because they lacked experienced metal workers but had tons of
Cabinet and Furniture makers. Time takes it's toll! I do two things now, the
stock market and making furniture. I can increase my craftsmanship in both
areas and not worry about the appreciation factor. I also volunteer doing
Habitats for Humanity, I've worked on 6 homes so far and paid with some of
the greatest appreciation one can ever receive.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "HMFIC-1369" wrote in message
>
> > Originally, I had 4 contractors bid on doing the jobs with about 14 L.
Ft.
> > they all came back with 25K to 35K+ figures, (refacing was 18K w/2custom
> > cabinets). Honestly, I wasn't impressed with many of the Manufactured
> > cabinets, in all cases you could see where they cut costs to maximize
> > profits. So I examined building them, not cheap either. For quality
wood,
> > your still going to pay for it and then even hardware like handles and
> > drawer slides are getting costly. Creating a overly costly Kitchen is
easy
> > too, the challenge being in doing a mid-quality level ass cheap as
> possible.
> > Ikea gave me the all Al/Glass cabinets I wanted, for the price of just
> > outsourcing 1 set of A/G doors (550.00).....
> >
> > Even though I'm retired my time is more money then I first estimated and
> > over 50 I don't move as quick or lift as much. What I realized was that
> very
> > few people when I sell the home will appreciate the cabinetry if I did
it
> > myself, and honestly most now would redo it they're way (and break my
> > heart). As they say location location, location......
>
> I hear you loud and clear. I am 62 and starting to feel myself slow down
> also, Besides being a lot of physical work, it's almost impossible to find
> help that will stick around long enough to make hiring worthwhile. On this
> particular job I had one hired hand for less than 3 days during the entire
> fabrication and installation. (Leon, bless his heart, cut the end panels
to
> spec for me and saved me both time and back.)
>
> Cabinet work in this area, even in the most expensive homes these days, is
> often done by folks from a desert climate who never saw wood until they
swam
> over here. While some do fair work, as a general rule the workmanship is
> appalling. The contrast between my cabinets and the rest of the cabinetry
in
> the house speaks for itself _loudly_, and usually makes a good selling
> point.
>
> That said, I can still put a good amount of $$ in my pocket by doing some
> kitchens myself, and at the same time add to the selling points of the
home.
> I am also fortunate to be married to a veritable blood hound when it comes
> to finding quality fixtures at closeout prices, and she does all the
> interior decorating to boot.
>
> Your remarks about "appreciation" are right on ... many folks don't know
> quality from K-mart these days because they've never experienced it, and
the
> current idea is that a kitchen cabinet's life is less than 15 years.
>
> Makes it increasingly tougher to justify doing good work, commercially,
with
> that prevailing wind ...
>
> (I am betting that is one of the reasons an obviously skilled, world
class,
> artisan/cabinetmaker like Tom Watson is now "retired" ... and a damn shame
> that is).
>
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 7/12/05
>
>
"HMFIC-1369" wrote in message
> getting whole family's to smile. I'd recommend Habitats for Humanity.
Good outfit ... to whom, at the end of every project, we donate excess trim,
siding, PT lumber, and all manner of materials. My hat's off to you for both
your contributions.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > I hear you loud and clear. I am 62 and starting to feel myself slow down
> > also, Besides being a lot of physical work, it's almost impossible to
find
> > help that will stick around long enough to make hiring worthwhile. On
this
> > particular job I had one hired hand for less than 3 days during the
entire
> > fabrication and installation.
>
> I agree that as you get older, something like kitchen construction gets
> increasingly difficult. Even I'm starting to feel it at the tender age of
> 51. But what about the enjoyment part of it? Admittedly, if I was building
a
> kitchen again, I don't have a wife urging me on to get the job finished,
but
> I would be doing it for the sheer enjoyment of getting exactly what I
> wanted. And later on, the pride I'd feel when I was showing it off to
> friends and family.
An upstairs water pipe, busted over the kitchen, so it wasn't something I
chose to do for a hobby or for enjoyment.
I enjoy every aspect of Construction but not every stage. Demolition, maybe
best for getting out aggression, there is still a lot of shit to shovel.
They key to your point is the same as mine, we just took different paths. My
wife is Chinese, so color and materials (Feng Shui) are as important as the
quality of construction. I can cut tiles and some stones, but I couldn't
make the Silestone countertop or make the aluminum and glass doors (well I
could have but time, tools and material, make it more difficult and less
cost effective). So I made some trade offs, since the doors are full faced,
making the maple replacments for the 5 cabinets without glass doors, will
provide me with enough pride factor. Don't get me wrong I also enjoyed the
planning and design a great deal, but I also take a great deal of enjoyment
more so with the money I saved. This alone will buy me a new table saw, a
used motorcycle and two flat screens one plasma and one lcd TV's and still
have beer money and the rest gets re-invested....So the enjoment factor
grows.
But honestly if your looking at doing good work, pride, having enjoment and
getting whole family's to smile. I'd recommend Habitats for Humanity. I
worked on Wall St. for a good many years, the wife continues too. On 9/11, I
worked across from the WTC and she worked WTC II 70th floor, after that I
lost complete interest in the Street, and she buried herself into her work.
Habitats, I found to be therapeutic for us and I got to learn with hands on
from some sharp Craftsman on doing everything from building rock walls and
foundations all the way up to roofing and chimney brickwork. You wouldn't
believe the people you meet and work with everyone from Jon Corzine and his
son, to Joe Schmuck even met Jimmy Carter....every walk of life, race color
and creed. For just a few weekends you work as hard and as much as you want!
There are also two things I won't do anymore sheetrocking and spackle! After
I remodel the upstairs Bath.... I'll kick myself in the ass for not learning
from doing the kitchen
Very Nice! I like the layout. I'll post mine in about a month. I went in the
opposite direction, I wanted a modern look with spending as little as
possible and as little time as possible but doubling storage and the
countertop I want. Ceramic Flooring, Ikea Cabinetry,.Silestome Counter and
Island so far including some choice tools, I'm just short of $7K. (3.5K for
countertop) After everything is up and running, I'll start making maple
cabinet doors.
Originally, I had 4 contractors bid on doing the jobs with about 14 L. Ft.
they all came back with 25K to 35K+ figures, (refacing was 18K w/2custom
cabinets). Honestly, I wasn't impressed with many of the Manufactured
cabinets, in all cases you could see where they cut costs to maximize
profits. So I examined building them, not cheap either. For quality wood,
your still going to pay for it and then even hardware like handles and
drawer slides are getting costly. Creating a overly costly Kitchen is easy
too, the challenge being in doing a mid-quality level ass cheap as possible.
Ikea gave me the all Al/Glass cabinets I wanted, for the price of just
outsourcing 1 set of A/G doors (550.00).....
Even though I'm retired my time is more money then I first estimated and
over 50 I don't move as quick or lift as much. What I realized was that very
few people when I sell the home will appreciate the cabinetry if I did it
myself, and honestly most now would redo it they're way (and break my
heart). As they say location location, location......
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Finally got around to taking pictures this morning ... for all practical
> purposes this one is ready to fire up and maybe cook some gumbo:
>
> http://www.e-woodshop.net/Projects7.htm
>
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 7/12/05
>
>
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
> (I am betting that is one of the reasons an obviously skilled, world
> class, artisan/cabinetmaker like Tom Watson is now "retired" ... and a
> damn shame that is).
>
That, and bad knees.
Patriarch,
glucosamine and Advil...
Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip of a good piece of insight>
> He knows that he is doing it good and right and that is how he was
> taught and that is how he does his work.
>
> It is not really the appreciation from outside that drives a good
> mechanic - it is the memory of those that he learned from, and the
> desire to earn the respect of those mechanics who are no longer even
> alive, that drives them.
>
> To be accounted "a good mechanic" by those who still know what that
> means - is enough.
>
> I mean that - even if your judges are long dead - their approval is
> enough.
>
My son courted and married a wonderful young woman, the daughter of an
old school union carpenter in the commercial construction trades, in and
about Oakland, CA. A skilled man, whose work had been hard on his back
and knees as well. Seems falling from a roof will change your stamina
some.
What Mark knew about me at first was that I was a necktie wearing
management type who drove a fancy pickup truck, and he was a bit
suspicious of management. When he got the chance to see some of the
furniture I'd built (none of it in the Goddard Townsend class, but
still...), he figured I was probably OK. When he started talking about
low angle adjustable block planes, and I gave him one of mine, LV's
best, he was pretty sure I at least knew tools a little.
Last fall, he brought me one of his father's old Stanley #7 handplanes.
I guess I passed his test.
Our shared grandaughter is three months old now, and as cute as any I've
ever seen.
Thanks for the post, Tom.
Patriarch
"Pat Barber" wrote in message\
> Nice kitchen dude...fire up the fancy stove.
LOL ... The gas is definitely on for the top burners, and the 220v for the
oven is definitely wired correctly, as I checked both myself. I should at
least heat up a bowl of soup to celebrate the occasion, but that honor will
have to go to the new occupants.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05
"Pat Barber" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Nice kitchen dude...fire up the fancy stove.
>
I agree!! Beautiful work. Love those counter tops. Personally, I would
have prefered upper cabinets surroundng the window, but maybe it wouldn't
work in this application.
Quite efficient in construction time too. This would have taken me years to
build. Thanks for sharing your project with us.
One question, did you forget the refrigerator?
Gary
"Upscale" wrote in message
>Even I'm starting to feel it at the tender age of
> 51. But what about the enjoyment part of it?
Yep .. just like playing music, there's only about three things for _doing
what you like to do_ that really count:
Exposure; Satisfaction; Payment.
If you can get any two of the three, you should definitely press on.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05
An anesthesiologist commented after looking at the meds list I showed
her that glucosamine works much better when MSM is taken as well.
The brand of glocos I buy now has MSM included.
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 20:04:58 -0500, Patriarch
<[email protected]> wrote:
>"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
><snip>
>> (I am betting that is one of the reasons an obviously skilled, world
>> class, artisan/cabinetmaker like Tom Watson is now "retired" ... and a
>> damn shame that is).
>>
>
>That, and bad knees.
>
>Patriarch,
>glucosamine and Advil...
and to you too.... They survive on the donated materials, we had a great
laugh and a good time when a local vendor donated a Jacuzzi which we
installed in a retirement home in Conn.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "HMFIC-1369" wrote in message
>
> > getting whole family's to smile. I'd recommend Habitats for Humanity.
>
> Good outfit ... to whom, at the end of every project, we donate excess
trim,
> siding, PT lumber, and all manner of materials. My hat's off to you for
both
> your contributions.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 7/12/05
>
>
"Gary" wrote in message
>
> "Pat Barber" wrote in message
>
> > Nice kitchen dude...fire up the fancy stove.
> >
>
> I agree!! Beautiful work. Love those counter tops. Personally, I would
> have prefered upper cabinets surroundng the window, but maybe it wouldn't
> work in this application.
Nope, that's a very good point. AAMOF, I did that in my own kitchen (added
shelves on both sides of the window over the sink) ... and there is still
room to do that for the buyers.
it's been amply demonstrated that many women prefer to have the wall space
on the sides of the kitchen windows for calendars, weather stations,
personal pictures, message boards, etc.... sometime you have to leave the
canvas blank in spots so they can fill in according to their tastes. I can
go back and put in whatever they want during final negotiations.
> Quite efficient in construction time too. This would have taken me years
to
> build. Thanks for sharing your project with us.
>
> One question, did you forget the refrigerator?
Again, and in this price range, I like to leave the choice of refrigerator
to the buyer. It is a personal decision for most women who, IME, are the
ones who actually make the purchase decision based, in large part, on the
kitchen and master suite/bath ... this way their desires can be better
accommodated during final negotiations.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/12/05
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:13:55 -0500, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Your remarks about "appreciation" are right on ... many folks don't know
>quality from K-mart these days because they've never experienced it, and the
>current idea is that a kitchen cabinet's life is less than 15 years.
>
>Makes it increasingly tougher to justify doing good work, commercially, with
>that prevailing wind ...
>
>(I am betting that is one of the reasons an obviously skilled, world class,
>artisan/cabinetmaker like Tom Watson is now "retired" ... and a damn shame
>that is).
Let me start by saying that your kitchen is positively immaculate,
Swing. Well conceived and well executed.
But, I did not get out of the game for a lack of appreciation, I got
out for a lack of stamina.
I wasn't old but my knees were, and my back.
I'd have stayed in if they had.
I've been sitting on my ass mostly for the past eighteen months and my
joints don't hurt much anymore.
But my gut and ass have gotten bigger.
I probably carry twenty pounds of fat that I didn't have two years
ago.
When I first went onto the shop floor at my new job to look at
work,checking for conformance to specifications, the mechanics hid
from me, like they would from any clipboard carrying sonofabitch.
Now they call me up and ask me for advice.
I'm pretty satisfied with that.
I reckon it's a sort of appreciation.
As far as actual cabinetmaking goes, I've cut out the parts for my
Goddard-Townsend Kneeholes, and selected the appropriate curly cherry
for the drawer fronts, which shall be carved, with great trepidation
and joy, into a simulacrum of the shells that I have seen in my dreams
for years.
And I don't have to worry a lick about when it gets done.
I didn't even tell my wife that I was working on them.
My sense of appreciation comes from inside of me, as I suspect it does
in all good mechanics.
When I was a carpenter, I didn't expect the contractor to tell me what
a nice job I'd done on cutting in the Baldwin lock and hanging the
entry door; I knew that the cheap bastard had hired me because I was
one of about four people that he knew who could do the same thing.
And I happened to answer the phone first.
I loved and revered my trade as a carpenter and I did the same as a
cabinetmaker. You ask Tommy Plamman about this and he will say the
same.
The world has moved on. You are right in saying that we do not have
as large a base of people who can appreciate good work - but a good
mechanic has already solved that within himself.
He knows that he is doing it good and right and that is how he was
taught and that is how he does his work.
It is not really the appreciation from outside that drives a good
mechanic - it is the memory of those that he learned from, and the
desire to earn the respect of those mechanics who are no longer even
alive, that drives them.
To be accounted "a good mechanic" by those who still know what that
means - is enough.
I mean that - even if your judges are long dead - their approval is
enough.
Tom Watson - WoodDorker
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)