OT - Spanking...Should You or Shouldn't You?

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:50:43 -0500, Kenneth
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
>>>> have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
>>>> own weight.
>>>>
>>>> Now that would be a lesson...
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>> --
>>>> Kenneth
>>>>
>>>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>>>
>>>Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act? :)
>>>
>>
>>One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
>>a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
>>understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
>>adjusted kid.
>>
>>All the best,
>
> Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
> So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
> Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
> You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
> wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
> college.
>
>

So...you're suggesting that because the kid hasn't been hit, something's
missing from his life? Clue: Some people are better than others at using
words, which is one thing that makes some parents, teachers, clergymen,
managers and political leaders better than others. If you think that every
child will need physical punishment, you're sorely misguided.

"Spehro Pefhany" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
> scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
> of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
> correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.

You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
wankers who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any terrorist
attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make you puke.

Ignoramus14135 wrote:
> This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
> newsgroups.
>
> I think that you need some spankin'!
>
> By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
> time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
> small children.
>
> Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
> exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
> the fuck are they bring beaten for.


I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the shit out of me
for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

I know it is off topic...and that is why it is marked OT.

I posted it to the groups I did because, believe it or not, many of
those who haunt these groups actually have opinions I respect. ;<)

I would tend to agree with another poster...one size doesn't fit all
when it comes to applying discipline to kids.


TMT

"until we came up with this simple formula.
1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
regardless of how much education they have.
2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,

throw out their advice too.
3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,

consider what they have to say.
4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't
wait
for advice, seek it out from those people. "

Good approach....

TMT

Jerry Foster wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
> >
> > TMT
> >
> >
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_
> ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
> >
> >
> > Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
> >
> <snip>
>
> Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
> parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
> doesn't seem to work.
>
> When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
> was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
> most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
> compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
> our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
> you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

Jerry Foster wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
> >
> > TMT
> >
> >
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_
> ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
> >
> >
> > Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
> >
> <snip>
>
> Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
> parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
> doesn't seem to work.
>
> When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
> was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
> most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
> compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
> our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
> you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

Jerry Foster wrote:
> "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
> >
> > TMT
> >
> >
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_
> ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
> >
> >
> > Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
> >
> <snip>
>
> Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
> parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
> doesn't seem to work.
>
> When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
> was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
> most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
> compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
> our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
> you have to wonder...

Most crimes have always been committed by males between 15 and 35. Our
declining crime rate merely reflects our changing demographics.
Child-rearing norms and the posturing of politicians has little or
nothing to do with it. I have some family members who spanked their
kids, and others who didn't. But all were loving, responsible, mature,
well-educated parents, and their kids all turned out just fine.

Jeff

Deborah ,

sorry, I should have been more clear what I meant. This article implies
that if you have "perfect" relations between your family members there
is a less likelihood of need to spank.

Jerry,

crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
factor( like spanking)

Dave,

you kids are lucky to have such parents!
Everyone one participating in this thread must read it before posting
thier opinion on spanking.

Too_Many_Tumors wrote:


>http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
>
>
> Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
>
> Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
> anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
> ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
> norm."

I've seen just exactly the opposite with children who *do not* get spanked,
but instead get some stupid whiny sounding, petite, soft-spoken and gentle
'talking to'. Said children have already become nuisances to the parent(s),
the school(s), the neighborhood, and is/are bullies, not liked well by others
the same age. One of the little shits in question is my nephew. His mother
has never laid a hand on him and he runs her life almost literally and does
what he wants to when he wants to...all starting at about 8 years old and is
now 14 or 15 (I don't give a fuck about the little shit, nor does anyone else
in the family after all the crap he's pulled over the years and his mother
snubbing her nose at *US* for trying to discipline him when we were
unfortunate enough to have had to babysit the little fucker). Dad and I have
a running bet on the age he'll be when he first gets thrown in jail.


--
Ragheads - worthless pig shit eaters..
Illegal aliens - just as worthless as ragheads.

Swingman wrote:

> "Kenneth" wrote in message
>
>> One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
>> have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
>> own weight.
>>
>> Now that would be a lesson...
>
> Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
> whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
> from their lack of discipline as children.

Are you stupid or something? Are you related to Forrest Gump?

--
Ragheads - worthless pig shit eaters..
Illegal aliens - just as worthless as ragheads.

Swingman wrote:

> I'm glad I can hide behind a computer and act a badass!

We're just glad you're behind the computer and not in public anywhere.

--
Ragheads - worthless pig shit eaters..
Illegal aliens - just as worthless as ragheads.

Mon, Nov 21, 2005, 10:35am (EST-3) [email protected]
(Too_Many_Tools) burbled:
I am interested in hearing your opinion <snip>

My opinion is that you should not have posted that here. Find
another news group. You should have been spanked when you were a kid.



JOAT
Just pretend I'm not here. That's what I'm doing.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 05:28:37 -0800, Antipodean Bucket Farmer <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
><[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:09:56 GMT, Doug Kanter <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> > "Ignoramus1487" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> >> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>> For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
>> >>> physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do
>> >>> you
>> >>> think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible
>> >>> that
>> >>> some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand
>> >>> the
>> >>> rules?
>> >>
>> >> First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
>> >> that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
>> >> of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
>> >> exploring or imitating adults.
>> >>
>> >> For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
>> >> a glass.
>> >>
>> >> Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
>> >> would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.
>> >>
>> >> Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
>> >> violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
>> >> that they deserve.
>> >>
>> >> The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
>> >> them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.
>> >>
>> >> The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
>> >> them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
>> >> is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
>> >> what's not allowed.
>> >
>> > The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
>> > deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
>> > nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
>> > with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
>> > he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
>> > course.
>> >
>> > Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
>> > that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
>> > brain has not yet developed. Made sense.
>>
>> Interesting. I know some adults whose brains did not develop the
>> anti-tantrum centers...
>
>
> It is a combination defence/coercion mechanism.
>
> "You're not giving me what I want, so I will throw a
> tantrum, to wear you down and get you to follow orders
> and hand it over."
>
> "You are trying to have a discussion about something
> that embarrasses me, or that challenges my
> entitlement-attitude. So I will throw a screaming
> tantrum, to wear you down and shut you up."
>
> Some adults rely upon a form of tantrum called,
> "Whiiiiinnnnninnnggggg." Poor me, poor me, I am being
> soooo victimised by your refusal-to-give, or by your
> scary-reality-discussion... Whinge, whinge, whinge, to
> annoy you so much as to break your resistance to my
> will."
>
> Just like little child on the floor of a supermarket,
> demanding candy.
>
> OB Survivalism: Those dorks will suck up your
> time/energy/resources, and even beat down your very
> will to live, if you get too involved/attached.
>
>

wisely stated.

i
--

I'm not a link follower so I didn't click on the link but I just read that
artical and it had nothing to do with spanking. Who says if you spank your
kids you are not a warm andd affectionate parent? Of course your parenting
skills<or what ever you want to call them, is going to effect how your
children turn out in the long run. But I say again that artical had nothing
to do with spanking.

Deborah

"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:fCvgf.23568
"well adjusted" is a right term and used in a right content.

Here is an article suggesting that if your kid needs spanking there is a
chance that
origin of that behavior is YOUR behavior:
http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/view.article.php?ArticleID=20942

Warm, nurturing parents have well-adjusted adolescents
September 14, 2005

Although preadolescents and adolescents might think their parents hold no
sway over
them, a study published in the September/October issue of the journal Child
Development
finds just the opposite – early parenting style makes a big difference in
how a child
turns out.

Researchers from Arizona State University in Tempe evaluated 186 adolescents
three times
over a six-year period, once every two years from the time the children were
about 9 to
about age 13. They used parent and teacher reports to evaluate how well
adjusted the
children were in terms of aggression, antisocial and delinquent behavior,
and how well
the children were able to “self-regulate,” i.e., inhibit their behavior when
necessary
and control their emotions and behavior.

The researchers assessed the children’s self-regulation by measuring their
persistence
in completing a frustrating task (rather than cheating or giving up), along
with reports
from parents and teachers. Additionally, they observed the parents’ (mostly
mothers’)
warmth and positive emotions as they interacted with their child during each
of the
three assessments.

The researchers found that parenting, youths’ self-regulation, and youths’
adjustment
were generally related to each other within and across time. Additionally,
they found
evidence that parents who interacted warmly and positively with their
children at the
youngest age (the first assessment) had children who were relatively
self-regulated two
years later, and, in turn, exhibited fewer problem behaviors at the final
assessment.

“Our results are consistent with the view that parenting affects children’s
self-regulation and their overall adjustment,” said study author Nancy
Eisenberg, Ph.D.,
Regents’ professor of psychology at Arizona State University in Tempe.

“Thus, the quality of parent-child interactions in childhood seems to
foreshadow whether
young adolescents experience behavioral problems in adolescence, and this
relation
appears to be at least partly due to the fact that warm, positive parents
have children
who are well regulated,” she said.

“Because warm parenting seems to foster children’s self-regulation, it is
likely to
contribute to youths’ positive functioning in a variety of areas.”



Society for Research in Child Development

Mon, Nov 21, 2005, 10:35am (EST-3) [email protected]
(Too_Many_Tools) did crosspost his crap:
I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.

Crossposting dorky little troll. Should have figured from the
start.



JOAT
Just pretend I'm not here. That's what I'm doing.

"Dave Lyon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:QvGgf.592160$xm3.225156@attbi_s21...
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Kenneth" wrote in message
>>
>> > One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
>> > have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
>> > own weight.
>> >
>> > Now that would be a lesson...
>>
>> Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size
>> to
>> whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
>> from their lack of discipline as children.
>>
>> --
>> www.e-woodshop.net
>> Last update: 11/06/05
>>
>
>
> As long as he's acting in my best interest, and making sure I know why I'm
> being punished, I'm not afraid of that 1000 lb gorilla. You can be he
> wouldn't have to tell me something twice.
>
>
ok how small of a kid are we talking about? or is it how big of a person is
doing the spanking? 5 times their weight? must be a really big guy or really
small kid....

Deborah

"Jerry Foster" wrote:
> Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
> parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
> doesn't seem to work.
>
> When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
> was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
> most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
> compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were
in
> our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
> you have to wonder...

When I got spanked as a child, it wasn't the physical pain that hurt, it was
knowing that I messed up badly enough to warrant getting turned up over the
knee that hurt. The knowing that I had stepped so far out of the bounds of
behavior that I was upside down being hit on the ass is a powerful thing,
and it is that knowing that some children need to experience, if only a few
times.

Consider it the "instant karma" approach. When it is necessary, it should
be used, and not disregarded as cruel.

Jon

"Dave Jackson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Amen, Jeff
> I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
> continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
> even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
> consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them
more
> than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
> did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
> same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
> follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
> generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to
paddling.
> (which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT
tell
> a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a
polite
> "stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
> time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
> word.... --dave

As it should be! Congrats on using good judgment.

Harold

"Kenneth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Dave Jackson" wrote in message
> >
> >> I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
> >> continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the
threat
> >> even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there
are
> >> consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them
> >more
> >> than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and
never
> >> did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids
the
> >> same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it
and
> >> follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business
and
> >> generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to
> >paddling.
> >> (which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT
> >tell
> >> a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a
> >polite
> >> "stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
> >> time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
> >> word.... --dave
> >
> >Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and
uncommon
> >sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
> >training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the
immediate
> >consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.
> >
> >You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what
it
> >is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.
> >
> >All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his
belt
> >buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.
>
> One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
> have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
> own weight.
>
> Now that would be a lesson...
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth

Do you have any questions why so many of the children of today have no
manners? I know I don't have. (Questions, that is.)

No one suggested you have to beat a kid senseless. A couple slaps on the
ass does a world of good for kids that act up and won't listen to reason.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of activity,
in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn something
in the way of obedience and manners.

I'd suggest to you the parents of such children reap their reward when the
kids grow up and show their contempt for society, including their parents.
Why not? What were they taught?

Harold (who's all for a good spanking when it's warranted)

"Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
>
> TMT
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
>
>
> Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher

damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:32:09 -0000, "tg" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>>I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
>>>
>>> TMT
>>>
>>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
>>>
>>>
>>> Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
>>
>>damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...
>>
> You must be from the UK :-)

correct sir
I applaud your intuition.

"Dave Lyon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
snip----

>Good parenting is lots of hard work.

Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back bone.

>Often otherwise
> loving parents give up when they've had a hard day and they have to get up
> from the couch once again to discipline junior for the 5th time that
> evening.

5th time because they haven't taught the kid any manners, and the kid hasn't
ever had to pay a price. Interestingly, the day comes when he/she will.
Society, in general, has little tolerance for such people. Imagine the
rude awakening when a kid pulls the usual BS as a young adult and loses a
good job because the boss doesn't have to put up with it.

>
> I hate it when I see a child like you're referring to in the store. It
makes
> me want to walk over to the kid and give him a good swat, then smack the
> parent for allowing it. It's not the kids fault for being a turd. It's the
> parents.

I agree. Just yesterday, in K-Mart, where there's a Little Caesars Pizza
restaurant, I watched as a kid climbed over a railing time and again,
while two of his younger siblings were running around screaming, crawling
under the tables. The mother had five young ones with her, and all she
did was apologize for their behavior, never once attempting to discipline
them. At what point in life will these kids begin to understand that
there are boundaries?

Harold

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Kenneth" wrote in message
>
> > One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
> > have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
> > own weight.
> >
> > Now that would be a lesson...
>
> Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
> whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
> from their lack of discipline as children.

There appears to be no shortage of these folks, either. Is that what
we've become?

Harold

"Antipodean Bucket Farmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...

>> damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...
>
> Would you settle for spanking Tim May?

no

"Dave Lyon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:Kd_gf.352672$084.38803@attbi_s22...
>
> "Harold and Susan Vordos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "Dave Lyon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
> > snip----
> >
> > >Good parenting is lots of hard work.
> >
> > Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back
bone.
> >
>
>
> And that is what I think is the real answer to this debate! Kids don't
need
> more friends, that's not a parents job, they need parents that will stand
up
> and do the right thing even if it means the kids will be upset with them.
> And, they need to do it every time!
>
> Depending on the child, many different methods of parenting may work, but
> you cannot substitute for being consistent.
>
>

Exactly!

I watched with dismay as my brother didn't discipline his kids, even when
they deserved a serious spanking. Example: Ladies washing dishes at a
large gathering, his kids (two boys) outside with the garden hose, spraying
them through the open window. "Don't, son. Don't, son. Don't, son.
When three "Don't, son"s didn't work, he dropped the subject.

Sorry, that calls for some serious intervention, and consistency.

Harold

"Antipodean Bucket Farmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> >
> > "Dave Lyon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
> > snip----
> >
> > >Good parenting is lots of hard work.
> >
> > Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back
bone.
> >
> > >Often otherwise
> > > loving parents give up when they've had a hard day and they have to
get up
> > > from the couch once again to discipline junior for the 5th time that
> > > evening.
> >
> >
> > 5th time because they haven't taught the kid any manners, and the kid
hasn't
> > ever had to pay a price. Interestingly, the day comes when he/she
will.
> > Society, in general, has little tolerance for such people. Imagine the
> > rude awakening when a kid pulls the usual BS as a young adult and loses
a
> > good job because the boss doesn't have to put up with it.
>
>
> On the other hand, there might *never* be that "rude
> awakening." There are plenty of adults (including
> middle-aged and over) going around with a certain
> constant bewildered expression on their face. Totally
> and chronically confused as to just "WHY" all us mean
> nasty people refuse to give the Entitlement Freak
> whatever s/he wants. And just "WHY" we refuse to
> tolerate his/her obnoxious behaviour.
>
> The Entitlement Freaks are each On A Mission to prove
> that they are indeed, the centre of the universe, and
> that everybody else "owes" them.
>
> No clue at eighteen, no clue at thirty, no clue at
> forty... No clue *ever*.
>

Pretty hard to improve on that!

Harold

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

< snip >

> To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
> mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
> Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
> physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.

Anthropolotical studies have shown that if you just ASK this, people in
just about every culture will lie and say they don't use corporal
punishment. It is an excellent way to produce bogus data for liberal
propaganda, however.

Corporal punishment of misbehaving children is pan human.

> Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
> Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey.


I wouldn't call anyone a scientist who uses methods that are known to
produce bogus results. They are propagandists.

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Dave Jackson" wrote in message
>
>> I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
>> continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
>> even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
>> consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them
> more
>> than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
>> did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
>> same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
>> follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
>> generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to
> paddling.
>> (which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT
> tell
>> a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a
> polite
>> "stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
>> time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
>> word.... --dave
>
> Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and uncommon
> sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
> training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the immediate
> consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.
>
> You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what it
> is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.
>
> All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his belt
> buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.
>

Children are not dogs.

Also, rewards and punishment do not require violence to be used
against children.

i

Doug Kanter wrote:

>"Spehro Pefhany" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>>That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
>>scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
>>of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
>>correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.
>>
>>
>
>You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
>wankers who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any terrorist
>attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make you puke.
>
>
>
>
Not meaning to spur debate in a dumb direction here but simply follow up
with "fewer people were killed in the US by terrorist attacks during
Clinton's watch so it PROVES Clinton did a better job of protecting the
US from terrorist than Bush and Billions on homeland security". It
makes as much sense as the argument that's making you fill the bucket :)

Koz (who is perfectly happy with those who argue opposite of his
left-wing pinko-commie leanings but HATES letting argumentative fallcies
slide)

"Kenneth" wrote in message

> But you clearly equate "hitting" and "discipline."

You're right again. As an attention getter, you bet I do ... when it is
timely and appropriate.

Just don't you equate "hitting" with physical harm.

AAMOF, let me know if you're ever interested in putting your money where
your mouth is on that count.

A little scientific experiment, based on whether smacking the crap out of
someone for each smug attempt to spin words and meaning would stop the
behavior, would be highly pertinent to the discussion and provide some
insight you're missing.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

> The Entitlement Freaks are each On A Mission to prove
> that they are indeed, the centre of the universe, and
> that everybody else "owes" them.


How many mother-in-laws does it take to screw in a light bulb?






Just one, she holds the bulb and waits for the world to revolve around her.
:)

>
> I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
> them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
> supported by wishful thinking.
>
> i


There is a lot of intelligence in your post (including the part I snipped).

However, it appears as if you think spanking and violence are synonyms. They
are not.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:32:09 -0000, "tg" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
>>
>> TMT
>>
>> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
>>
>>
>> Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
>
>damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...
>
You must be from the UK :-)

"Kenneth" wrote in message

> One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
> have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
> own weight.
>
> Now that would be a lesson...

Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
from their lack of discipline as children.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:01:25 GMT, "Dave Lyon" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn is
>all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
>punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
>spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
>should have discipline tailored to their personalities.

Dave,I consider this to be the single most important statement made in
this thread. My one son was never spanked, he had such a developed
sense of empathy and had a very hard time dealing with anyone he felt
was being treated unfairly. We could "talk to him". Its funny, we
thought he would grow up to be a minister. He joined the Marines.

Dave, peace to you.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>>
>> One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
>> have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
>> own weight.
>>
>> Now that would be a lesson...
>>
>> All the best,
>> --
>> Kenneth
>>
>> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>
>Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act? :)
>

One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
adjusted kid.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Are we talking "regular" kids, or kids that wind up turning out like Harold?
----------------------------
Mr. P.V.'d
formerly Droll Troll
"Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
>
> TMT
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
>
>
> Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
>
> Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
> anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
> ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
> norm."
>
> Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
> physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
> should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
> to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
> into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.
>
> Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
> discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
> and the circumstances in which it is used.
>
> To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
> mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
> Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
> physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.
>
> Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
> Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
> Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
> were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
> anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
> frequently."
>
> "However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
> common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
> strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
> physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.
>
> Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
> teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
> or use other forms of physical discipline.
>
> In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
> and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
> or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
> Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
> slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
> discipline they had used on their grandchildren.
>
> One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
> being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
> aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
> and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
> of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
> some of each," Lansford said.
>
> "Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
> day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.
>
> SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005
>

"Koz" <kmiller@*dontspamme*metalbelt.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>>"Spehro Pefhany" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>>That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
>>>scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
>>>of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
>>>correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.
>>>
>>
>>You should hang around rec.boats a few times a week and listen to the
>>wankers who say "Well...since we invaded Iraq, we haven't had any
>>terrorist attacks here, so the war must be working." It's enough to make
>>you puke.
>>
>>
> Not meaning to spur debate in a dumb direction here but simply follow up
> with "fewer people were killed in the US by terrorist attacks during
> Clinton's watch so it PROVES Clinton did a better job of protecting the US
> from terrorist than Bush and Billions on homeland security". It makes as
> much sense as the argument that's making you fill the bucket :)
>
> Koz (who is perfectly happy with those who argue opposite of his left-wing
> pinko-commie leanings but HATES letting argumentative fallcies slide)
>

Also during Clinton's reign, I didn't smash my toe on the coffee table, not
even once, so obviously, we were safer. On the other hand, I sliced the
phuque out of my finger last week with a scary-sharp kitchen knife.

This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
newsgroups.

I think that you need some spankin'!

By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
small children.

Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
the fuck are they bring beaten for.

i

On 21 Nov 2005 10:35:19 -0800, Too_Many_Tools <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
>
> TMT
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
>
>
> Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
>
> Children who are spanked when they misbehave are more likely to be
> anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in nonphysical
> ways, research shows. This is true even if spanking is the "cultural
> norm."
>
> Whether parents should spank their children or use other forms of
> physical discipline is controversial. Some experts argue that children
> should not be spanked when they act out citing evidence that it leads
> to more, rather than fewer, behavior problems and it could escalate
> into physical abuse. There are data to support this argument.
>
> Other experts, however, argue that the effects of spanking and physical
> discipline might depend on the characteristics of the child and family
> and the circumstances in which it is used.
>
> To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
> mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
> Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
> physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.
>
> Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
> Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey. She told
> Reuters Health that "across the six countries studied, children who
> were physically disciplined more frequently were more aggressive and
> anxious than were children who were physically disciplined less
> frequently."
>
> "However, in countries where the use of physical discipline was more
> common, being physically disciplined more frequently was not related as
> strongly to aggression and anxiety as it was in countries where
> physical discipline was less frequently used," she said.
>
> Not surprisingly, in Thailand, a country where peace-promoting Buddhist
> teachings predominant, moms were least likely to spank their children
> or use other forms of physical discipline.
>
> In Kenya, on the other hand, where use of physical discipline is common
> and considered normal for the most part, moms were most likely to spank
> or engage in similar disciplinary tactics. In a study conducted in
> Kenya in 2003, 57 percent of grandmothers reported caning, pinching,
> slapping, tying with a rope, hitting, beating, and kicking as forms of
> discipline they had used on their grandchildren.
>
> One question the findings raise, according to Lansford, is whether
> being physically disciplined more frequently causes an increase in
> aggression and anxiety or whether children who are already aggressive
> and anxious are simply physically disciplined more often. "On the basis
> of other work conducted in the United States, the answer is probably
> some of each," Lansford said.
>
> "Another question is whether physical discipline is appropriate in this
> day and age, regardless of how accepted it may be," she added.
>
> SOURCE: Child Development, November/December 2005
>


--

"Dave Jackson" wrote in message

> I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
> continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
> even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
> consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them
more
> than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
> did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
> same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
> follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
> generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to
paddling.
> (which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT
tell
> a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a
polite
> "stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
> time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
> word.... --dave

Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and uncommon
sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the immediate
consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.

You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what it
is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.

All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his belt
buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/06/05

Kenneth wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
-------------------
>
> One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
> have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
> own weight.
>
> Now that would be a lesson...

If that truly is your position and experience, when the opportunity
arises to meet you and your misbehaving children I will politely
refuse.

technomaNge
--
I listen to Rush and Sean on
http://www.wabcradio.com/listenlive.asp
daily. You should try it.

"Ignoramus1487" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
>> physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do
>> you
>> think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible
>> that
>> some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand
>> the
>> rules?
>
> First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
> that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
> of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
> exploring or imitating adults.
>
> For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
> a glass.
>
> Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
> would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.
>
> Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
> violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
> that they deserve.
>
> The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
> them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.
>
> The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
> them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
> is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
> what's not allowed.

The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
course.

Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
brain has not yet developed. Made sense.



> Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
> addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
> and is not reducable to spanking only.
>
> There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.
>
> I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
> them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
> supported by wishful thinking.

I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

"Dave Lyon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p6_gf.593982$xm3.67367@attbi_s21...
>
> > Lots and lots more drugs, including the crack cocaine
> > epidemic starting in the late 80s.
>
> Really? Lots more drugs than in the 60's?

Lots more drug CRIMES, as more and more thing were classified as crimes, and
more and more crimes were treated as "serious," not excluding FEDERAL
pressure
on local agencies with not-so-subtle threats behind them.

Watch the Johnny Cash movie, then get back to us about the effectiveness and
desire of regulating persoal behavior.

Dan


--


"History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the
Party is always right."

"... by far the more important reason for the readjustment of the past is
the need to safeguard the infallibility of the Party. It is not merely that
speeches, statistics and records of every kind must be constantly brought up
to date in order to show that the predictions of the Party were in all cases
right. It is also that no change of doctrine or in political alignment can
ever be admitted. For to change one's mind, or even one's policy, is a
confession of weakness."

"It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words."

- George Orwell, "1984"

"The Americans will always do the right thing, after they've exhausted all
the alternatives."

-Winston Churchill

"Throughout history, tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that
murder is justified to serve their grand vision. And they end up alienating
decent people across the globe."

- George W. Bush, introspective

My basic rule was:

If the punishment was worse than the reasonably expected outcome of the
action,
over time, don't do it.

Example: child runs into street, spank. Child talks back, don't spank.

I'll post anecdotal results in 30 or 40 years.

Dan

--


"History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the
Party is always right."

"... by far the more important reason for the readjustment of the past is
the need to safeguard the infallibility of the Party. It is not merely that
speeches, statistics and records of every kind must be constantly brought up
to date in order to show that the predictions of the Party were in all cases
right. It is also that no change of doctrine or in political alignment can
ever be admitted. For to change one's mind, or even one's policy, is a
confession of weakness."

"It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words."

- George Orwell, "1984"

"The Americans will always do the right thing, after they've exhausted all
the alternatives."

-Winston Churchill

"Throughout history, tyrants and would-be tyrants have always claimed that
murder is justified to serve their grand vision. And they end up alienating
decent people across the globe."

- George W. Bush, introspective

"Stuart Grey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> When a child misbehaves, stick him in the corner.
>
> Minor offense, he can sit facing outward.
> Moderate offense, he stands with his nose in the corner.
> Serious offense, he kneels with nose in the corner.
>
> Only spanking offense: Leaving the corner when put in it for punishment.
>
> How to administer spankings: 1) Never spank when your pissed. 2) Put a
> lot of drama into it, use fear and expectation more than pain. 3) Use a
> softly rolled up newspaper, as it makes a lot of noise and doesn't sting
> as much. The noise and the expectation of do the work for you. 4) The
> newspaper trick almost always work. If not, then you have to escalate to
> the bare hand. Never use belts, hotwheel tracks or such, as you can't
> feel what your doing.
>
> With any luck, after one or two spankings, you'll never have to do it
> again and you can always use the corner. Of course, genetics give people
> different dispositions. This technique may or may not work in your family.
>

> >One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
> >a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
> >understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
> >adjusted kid.
> >
> >All the best,
>
> Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
> So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
> Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
> You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
> wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
> college.
>

That was a little overboard don't you think? Isn't it possible that he has
raised a child to the age of 6 that is well adjusted? Just because he
doesn't agree with our methods does not mean his methods don't work.

"Harold and Susan Vordos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dave Lyon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
> snip----
>
> >Good parenting is lots of hard work.
>
> Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back bone.
>


And that is what I think is the real answer to this debate! Kids don't need
more friends, that's not a parents job, they need parents that will stand up
and do the right thing even if it means the kids will be upset with them.
And, they need to do it every time!

Depending on the child, many different methods of parenting may work, but
you cannot substitute for being consistent.

In article
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Jerry,
> >
> > crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
> > a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
> > In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
> > factor( like spanking)
> >
>
> I agree that a number of factors are involved. And I didn't state that
> there was a direct cause-effect. I simply said, "you have to wonder."
>
> BUT, in the State of California (just as a simple example), the population
> of the state approximately doubled from 1960 to 2000 (rough figures, about
> 15,000,000 to about 30,000,000). Meanwhile, the total number of inmates in
> California prisons increased nearly ten-fold (again, rough figures, about
> 18,000 to about 160,000).


"Three strikes and you're out" law.

Increased crowding leads to more opportunity and
stress-inspiration for crime.

More welfare ("Idle hands are the devil's workshop.")

Lots and lots more drugs, including the crack cocaine
epidemic starting in the late 80s. Leading to
increases in direct drug-crime, like sales/possession,
but also to increases in indirect drug-crime, like
muggings/burglaries/prostitution, etc, to get money for
dope.

I suspect that the drugs are the biggest factor.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
> >
> > TMT
> >
> > http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
> >
> >
> > Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
>
> damn, I thought this was going to be a fun subject, like spanking semi-clad women...


Would you settle for spanking Tim May?


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

In article <WYLgf.593066$xm3.147384@attbi_s21>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Dave,
> >
> > you kids are lucky to have such parents!
>
>
> Thanks. I hope you're right. The bad part about parenting is that you really
> don't know how good you've done until your kids are grown!


Not necessarily. I've encountered parents who did a
bad job in either direction.

One set was criminally abusive and neglectful. We're
talking violence as entertainment. They ended up with
seriously damaged young adult offspring. And yet were
convinced that they (the parents) were just sweet and
nice, and acted confused about why those nasty,
ungrateful brats turned out so pathetic in two cases,
and hateful/negative in the other case.

The other set was weak and spoiled their kid. Zero
discipline or enforcement of rules, limits, or
consideration for others. They ended up with a vicious
sociopath/habitual-criminal adult offspring. And yet
were convinced that they (the parents) were smart and
skilled, and acted confused about why the big, bad
society/other-people had caused their sweet baby to
have such conflicts.

Parents are accountable and responsible when they
produce nice, happy, well-behaved adult offspring. But
the accountability and responsibility disappears or
shifts when the ultimate parenting result (I.e. that
young adult) turns out negatively.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

In article <7fIgf.351064$084.30926@attbi_s22>,
[email protected] says...
>
> >
> > I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
> > them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
> > supported by wishful thinking.
> >
> > i
>
>
> There is a lot of intelligence in your post (including the part I snipped).
>
> However, it appears as if you think spanking and violence are synonyms. They
> are not.


Terminology is quite slippery on this subject.

Apparantly, the study cited in the first post of this
thread, relied upon asking parents to describe what
they had done to their children.

Also, people generally discussing this subject have
rose-coloured glasses on regarding either their own
actions, or the actions of others.

When I was growing up, my family used the term,
"spanking" to describe behaviour like beating a child
unconscious, for fun.

OTOH, I have encountered people who interpret
legitimate reference to "abuse" as merely indicating a
little hand-swat on the bum, when the child had
misbehaved. ("You're so immature for failing to feel
gratitude...")

As long as "spanking" isn't really violence (in your
mind), then it is reasonable for an employer who is
feeling stressed-out, to pull the nearest employee's
pants down, apply a belt until the little brat is
barely even capable of crawling away. After all, that
is a "spanking," in my experience, and thus isn't
really "violence," in your mind. So nothing bad
happening at all. A perfectly legitimate way for an
authoriTAH figure to remind everyone who's boss.

Wanna volunteer for some "not"-violence?


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

In article
<[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:09:56 GMT, Doug Kanter <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > "Ignoramus1487" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>> For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
> >>> physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do
> >>> you
> >>> think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible
> >>> that
> >>> some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand
> >>> the
> >>> rules?
> >>
> >> First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
> >> that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
> >> of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
> >> exploring or imitating adults.
> >>
> >> For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
> >> a glass.
> >>
> >> Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
> >> would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.
> >>
> >> Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
> >> violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
> >> that they deserve.
> >>
> >> The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
> >> them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.
> >>
> >> The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
> >> them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
> >> is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
> >> what's not allowed.
> >
> > The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
> > deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
> > nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
> > with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
> > he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
> > course.
> >
> > Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
> > that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
> > brain has not yet developed. Made sense.
>
> Interesting. I know some adults whose brains did not develop the
> anti-tantrum centers...


It is a combination defence/coercion mechanism.

"You're not giving me what I want, so I will throw a
tantrum, to wear you down and get you to follow orders
and hand it over."

"You are trying to have a discussion about something
that embarrasses me, or that challenges my
entitlement-attitude. So I will throw a screaming
tantrum, to wear you down and shut you up."

Some adults rely upon a form of tantrum called,
"Whiiiiinnnnninnnggggg." Poor me, poor me, I am being
soooo victimised by your refusal-to-give, or by your
scary-reality-discussion... Whinge, whinge, whinge, to
annoy you so much as to break your resistance to my
will."

Just like little child on the floor of a supermarket,
demanding candy.

OB Survivalism: Those dorks will suck up your
time/energy/resources, and even beat down your very
will to live, if you get too involved/attached.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Dave Lyon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:YoGgf.350854$084.302303@attbi_s22...
> snip----
>
> >Good parenting is lots of hard work.
>
> Yep! It is. And the parents should be consistent, and have a back bone.
>
> >Often otherwise
> > loving parents give up when they've had a hard day and they have to get up
> > from the couch once again to discipline junior for the 5th time that
> > evening.
>
>
> 5th time because they haven't taught the kid any manners, and the kid hasn't
> ever had to pay a price. Interestingly, the day comes when he/she will.
> Society, in general, has little tolerance for such people. Imagine the
> rude awakening when a kid pulls the usual BS as a young adult and loses a
> good job because the boss doesn't have to put up with it.


On the other hand, there might *never* be that "rude
awakening." There are plenty of adults (including
middle-aged and over) going around with a certain
constant bewildered expression on their face. Totally
and chronically confused as to just "WHY" all us mean
nasty people refuse to give the Entitlement Freak
whatever s/he wants. And just "WHY" we refuse to
tolerate his/her obnoxious behaviour.

The Entitlement Freaks are each On A Mission to prove
that they are indeed, the centre of the universe, and
that everybody else "owes" them.

No clue at eighteen, no clue at thirty, no clue at
forty... No clue *ever*.


--
Get Credit Where Credit Is Due
http://www.cardreport.com/
Credit Tools, Reference, and Forum

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:09:56 GMT, Doug Kanter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Ignoramus1487" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
>>> physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do
>>> you
>>> think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible
>>> that
>>> some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand
>>> the
>>> rules?
>>
>> First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
>> that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
>> of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
>> exploring or imitating adults.
>>
>> For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
>> a glass.
>>
>> Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
>> would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.
>>
>> Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
>> violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
>> that they deserve.
>>
>> The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
>> them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.
>>
>> The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
>> them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
>> is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
>> what's not allowed.
>
> The tantrum thing is interesting. My ex-wife, a speech pathologist, has to
> deal with little kids all day long. Her technique for tantrums worked
> nicely: Quickly determine if there's a good reason for it (fatigue, problem
> with sibling, etc). Usually, there's not. So, handle the kid as you would if
> he were having a seizure. Put him somewhere safe and let the tantrum run its
> course.
>
> Later, she came across a fascinating article which suggested (per research)
> that tantrums occur to some extent in all kids because a certain part of the
> brain has not yet developed. Made sense.

Interesting. I know some adults whose brains did not develop the
anti-tantrum centers...

>> Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
>> addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
>> and is not reducable to spanking only.
>>
>> There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.
>>
>> I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
>> them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
>> supported by wishful thinking.
>
> I had a neighbor who verbally abused his kids in public in the most vile
> ways, and for reasons you and I would consider absurd. For instance, the son
> was washing his dad's car one day, and working from the bottom up, which can
> be a problem on a really filthy car because of the abrasive dirt that might
> get transferred up higher as it clings to the sponge. The father stepped out
> the front door, screamed obscenities, and called the kid all sorts of nasty
> names. It was audible 10 houses away as we found out later. This sort of
> thing went on all the time. The kids in that family are a total mess, and
> according to the mom, there was no physical punishment.

What a dumbass that guy is...

i

lol I just want to know then who has perfect relations in any family? lol

Deborah

"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Deborah ,
>
> sorry, I should have been more clear what I meant. This article implies
> that if you have "perfect" relations between your family members there
> is a less likelihood of need to spank.
>

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Kenneth" wrote in message
>
> > One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
> > have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
> > own weight.
> >
> > Now that would be a lesson...
>
> Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
> whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
> from their lack of discipline as children.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 11/06/05
>


As long as he's acting in my best interest, and making sure I know why I'm
being punished, I'm not afraid of that 1000 lb gorilla. You can be he
wouldn't have to tell me something twice.

>
> One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
> have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
> own weight.
>
> Now that would be a lesson...
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act? :)

"Too_Many_Tools" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am interested in hearing your opinion on this subject.
>
> TMT
>
>
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051121/hl_nm/spanking_aggression_dc&printer=1;_
ylt=Asb2X4U9cR199hYC.3SIFvsR.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-
>
>
> Spanking children fuels aggression, anxiety By Megan Rauscher
>
<snip>

Just my two cents worth. I don't have kids and wouldn't presume to tell
parents what to do, but I am capable of observing when what parents do
doesn't seem to work.

When I was a kid, kids got spanked. But spanking fell out of favor when I
was a young adult (the age when I would have had kids, if I had...). Now,
most crime is committed by males between the ages of 15 and 35. If you
compare the numbers in jails and prisons when I (and my compadres ) were in
our "peak crime-committing" years and the prison population today, well,
you have to wonder...

Jerry

E.B. wrote:
> Ignoramus14135 wrote:
>
>>This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
>>newsgroups.
>>
>>I think that you need some spankin'!
>>
>>By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
>>time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
>>small children.
>>
>>Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
>>exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
>>the fuck are they bring beaten for.
>
>
>
> I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
> to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
> later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
> a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
> life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the shit out of me
> for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.

Note that there is a difference between using spanking occasionally as
one of many disciplinary tools, done without anger in appropriate
circumstances, and whipping a child for the smallest things. I only got
spanked for things that were intentionally mean or personally dangerous,
and I can almost pass for normal today. ;-)

Jeff

"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave,
>
> you kids are lucky to have such parents!


Thanks. I hope you're right. The bad part about parenting is that you really
don't know how good you've done until your kids are grown!

"A lot of stuff in school... you don't appreciate 'til you get to be older,
you know, little things, like being spanked everyday by a middle aged
woman... Stuff you'd pay good money for later in life." -- Emo Philips

> I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I'm up to my ears with kids that
> mule and puke when in public, showing no respect for person or property.
> Where the hell do you think that starts? Permissive parents that have
> little to no interest in rearing children, permitting any kind of
activity,
> in fear they might screw up the kid's mind if he/she had to learn
something
> in the way of obedience and manners.

I think most parents love their children and want the best for them. In my
opinion there are 2 basic reasons that a parent does not discipline their
children. The first is that they were probably never taught how to raise
children from their parents. Many of my parenting skills were "caught" from
my parents. Those people that didn't have the benefit of learning from good
parents have their work cut out for them. The 2nd is our nations growing
tendency to be lazy. Good parenting is lots of hard work. Often otherwise
loving parents give up when they've had a hard day and they have to get up
from the couch once again to discipline junior for the 5th time that
evening.

I hate it when I see a child like you're referring to in the store. It makes
me want to walk over to the kid and give him a good swat, then smack the
parent for allowing it. It's not the kids fault for being a turd. It's the
parents.

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:07:15 GMT, Dave Lyon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
>> them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
>> supported by wishful thinking.
>>
>> i
>
>
> There is a lot of intelligence in your post (including the part I snipped).
>
> However, it appears as if you think spanking and violence are synonyms. They
> are not.

You are correct. While all spanking is violence (what else is it),
some forms of violence (such as beheading or rape or bayonetting) are
not spanking.

i

"technomaNge" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Kenneth wrote:
>> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> -------------------
>>
>> One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
>> have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
>> own weight. Now that would be a lesson...
>
> If that truly is your position and experience, when the opportunity
> arises to meet you and your misbehaving children I will politely
> refuse.

For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do you
think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible that
some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand the
rules?

In Re: OT - Spanking...Should You or Shouldn't You? on Mon, 21
Nov 2005 14:47:35 -0500, by Spehro Pefhany, we read:

>On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 11:08:50 -0800, the renowned Stuart Grey
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>
>>< snip >
>>
>>> To investigate the latter theory, researchers from questioned 336
>>> mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
>>> Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding use of
>>> physical discipline and how it affected their children's behavior.
>>
>>Anthropolotical studies have shown that if you just ASK this, people in
>>just about every culture will lie and say they don't use corporal
>>punishment. It is an excellent way to produce bogus data for liberal
>>propaganda, however.
>>
>>Corporal punishment of misbehaving children is pan human.
>>
>>> Jennifer Lansford, a research scientist from the Center for Child and
>>> Family Policy at Duke University spearheaded the survey.
>>
>>
>>I wouldn't call anyone a scientist who uses methods that are known to
>>produce bogus results. They are propagandists.
>
>
>Does it prove that kids that are spanked act up more than kids who are
>not, or that kids who act like little monsters are more likely to get
>their bums paddled?
>
>That's the problem with statistical analysis as opposed to using the
>scientifically sound experiments with control groups etc. It is a heck
>of a lot cheaper and easier to use statistics, but you can only show
>correlation. Correlation does not prove causality.

Feminism, the core psychology of a new world socialism, isn't
concerned with facts or causality, only control.



>Best regards,
>Spehro Pefhany


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:50:43 -0500, Kenneth
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>>On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:37:05 GMT, "Dave Lyon"
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
>>>>have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
>>>>own weight.
>>>>
>>>>Now that would be a lesson...
>>>>
>>>>All the best,
>>>>--=20
>>>>Kenneth
>>>>
>>>>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>>>
>>>Just out of curiosity, how many kids do you have, and how do they act?=
:)
>>>
>>
>>One... He's six, and is a joy. He behaves as we would expect
>>a healthy child of his age to act, but is disciplined,
>>understands what is right and wrong, and is a happy, well
>>adjusted kid.
>>
>>All the best,
>=20
>=20
> Now that's special a perfect father to a perfect son.
> So just what and the hell is a "well adjusted kid"? Adjusted to What?
> Adjusted to You? Adjusted to the weather? Adjusted to the new dog?
> You have a six year old boy who is well adjusted, knows right from
> wrong, and is happy. I guess your job is done, time to send him off to
> college.
>=20
>=20

"well adjusted" is a right term and used in a right content.

Here is an article suggesting that if your kid needs spanking there is a =
chance that=20
origin of that behavior is YOUR behavior:=20
http://www.brightsurf.com/news/headlines/view.article.php?ArticleID=3D209=
42

Warm, nurturing parents have well-adjusted adolescents
September 14, 2005

Although preadolescents and adolescents might think their parents hold no=
sway over=20
them, a study published in the September/October issue of the journal Chi=
ld Development=20
finds just the opposite =96 early parenting style makes a big difference =
in how a child=20
turns out.

Researchers from Arizona State University in Tempe evaluated 186 adolesce=
nts three times=20
over a six-year period, once every two years from the time the children w=
ere about 9 to=20
about age 13. They used parent and teacher reports to evaluate how well a=
djusted the=20
children were in terms of aggression, antisocial and delinquent behavior,=
and how well=20
the children were able to =93self-regulate,=94 i.e., inhibit their behavi=
or when necessary=20
and control their emotions and behavior.

The researchers assessed the children=92s self-regulation by measuring th=
eir persistence=20
in completing a frustrating task (rather than cheating or giving up), alo=
ng with reports=20
from parents and teachers. Additionally, they observed the parents=92 (mo=
stly mothers=92)=20
warmth and positive emotions as they interacted with their child during e=
ach of the=20
three assessments.

The researchers found that parenting, youths=92 self-regulation, and yout=
hs=92 adjustment=20
were generally related to each other within and across time. Additionally=
, they found=20
evidence that parents who interacted warmly and positively with their chi=
ldren at the=20
youngest age (the first assessment) had children who were relatively self=
-regulated two=20
years later, and, in turn, exhibited fewer problem behaviors at the final=
assessment.

=93Our results are consistent with the view that parenting affects childr=
en=92s=20
self-regulation and their overall adjustment,=94 said study author Nancy =
Eisenberg, Ph.D.,=20
Regents=92 professor of psychology at Arizona State University in Tempe.

=93Thus, the quality of parent-child interactions in childhood seems to f=
oreshadow whether=20
young adolescents experience behavioral problems in adolescence, and this=
relation=20
appears to be at least partly due to the fact that warm, positive parents=
have children=20
who are well regulated,=94 she said.

=93Because warm parenting seems to foster children=92s self-regulation, i=
t is likely to=20
contribute to youths=92 positive functioning in a variety of areas.=94



Society for Research in Child Development

"Alex" <[email protected]> writes:
>Jerry,
>
>crime rate is lowest now in 20-30 years. If I find statiscics I'll post
>a link. Jail population big is due to a increased population.
>In any case we shouldn't attribute changes in crime rate to a single
>factor( like spanking)
>

Fairly reliable research has identified Roe v. Wade as a large
contributor to the decrease in the crime rate over the last
15 years or so.

<http://www.prospect.org/print/V12/1/abramsky-s.html>

Good advice with that formula....I hate it when people who don't have kids
tell me how I should raise mine....lol

as for spanking when they do something really bad yes they do get spanked
and we explain to them why we are spanking them....most the time they get
sent to their room though....

My siblings and I did have physical disciplene growing up and we are not
really agressive or anxious. A study like that can not show conclusive
results because it is based on what people say and people do lie and 'more
frequently' and 'less frequently' are very subjective terms and vary widely
in interpatation.

Deborah

"Dave Lyon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:pIpgf.590447$xm3.493640@attbi_s21...
> OK, I haven't been fished lately.
>
>
> After having 4 kids, I think I've learned a little about discipline. My
> first two received spankings as needed. They are very well adjusted, good
> kids (13 and 15 years old). My third child did not respond to spanking at
> all. In fact, I'm at wits end trying to come up with a suitable punishment
> for her (9 years old). I believe that I'm starting to learn that she
> responds much better to positive reinforcement. My forth child has nearly
> never been spanked. Usually a stern lecture is all he needs (6 years old).
>
> Here's what I've learned about child discipline. The first thing to learn
> is
> all kids are different. Sending my 6 year old to his room is a much better
> punishment than sending my 15 year old to hers. While I believe that
> spanking is an appropriate tool to use, it is not a cure all. Each child
> should have discipline tailored to their personalities.
> The most important thing that I've learned is that consistency is the key.
> If you say a child will be punished for a particular action, make sure
> they
> are punished for that action every time. Multiple warnings are not being
> kind to your children, they are confusing to them.
>
>
> When we had our first child EVERYBODY was giving us advice on the proper
> way
> to raise them. Often that advice contradicted what somebody else said. We
> nearly went crazy trying to figure out who to listen to until we came up
> with this simple formula.
> 1) If the advice giver doesn't have children, throw out their advice
> regardless of how much education they have.
> 2) If they have kids, but you don't like the way their children behave,
> throw out their advice too.
> 3) If they have kids, their kids are well behaved, but not fully grown,
> consider what they have to say.
> 4) If they have grown children, and you respect those children, don't wait
> for advice, seek it out from those people.
>

Amen, Jeff
I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them more
than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to paddling.
(which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT tell
a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a polite
"stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
word.... --dave




"Jeff McCann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> E.B. wrote:
>> Ignoramus14135 wrote:
>>
>>>This post really qualifies as a troll and is off topic for all three
>>>newsgroups.
>>>
>>>I think that you need some spankin'!
>>>
>>>By the way, lack of parental attention (that is, actually spending
>>>time with kids) is the main reason why children misbehave. At least
>>>small children.
>>>
>>>Also, what is misbehavior to adults is often completely normal
>>>exploring behavior on the part of kids, who sometimes wonder just what
>>>the fuck are they bring beaten for.
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess you can call it a never-ending-debate on balance. Whip the kid
>> to learn in the short-term, but he or she becomes aggressive in nature
>> later, regardless of what they were being punished for. Ask me, I was
>> a real bully, fought alot, and nearly ended up in jail even in adult
>> life. Why? Because my Dad was an NCO who whipped the shit out of me
>> for the smallest things. Now he says he regrets he was like that.
>
> Note that there is a difference between using spanking occasionally as one
> of many disciplinary tools, done without anger in appropriate
> circumstances, and whipping a child for the smallest things. I only got
> spanked for things that were intentionally mean or personally dangerous,
> and I can almost pass for normal today. ;-)
>
> Jeff

In article <[email protected]>,
Stuart Grey <[email protected]> wrote:

> When a child misbehaves, stick him in the corner.
>
> Minor offense, he can sit facing outward.
> Moderate offense, he stands with his nose in the corner.
> Serious offense, he kneels with nose in the corner.
>
> Only spanking offense: Leaving the corner when put in it for punishment.
>
> How to administer spankings: 1) Never spank when your pissed. 2) Put a
> lot of drama into it, use fear and expectation more than pain. 3) Use a
> softly rolled up newspaper, as it makes a lot of noise and doesn't sting
> as much. The noise and the expectation of do the work for you. 4) The
> newspaper trick almost always work. If not, then you have to escalate to
> the bare hand. Never use belts, hotwheel tracks or such, as you can't
> feel what your doing.
>
> With any luck, after one or two spankings, you'll never have to do it
> again and you can always use the corner. Of course, genetics give people
> different dispositions. This technique may or may not work in your family.

I have to disagree with the bare hand, even though it's readily
available for all occasions. :)

Everything else is spot on.

The kinetic energy of an adult's hand and arm can do unintended injury
to the lower spine, showing little evidence at first. Although you can
feel the force that way, it's not so accurate as one might think.

A light wooden spoon and a good wrist snap, or your newspaper, works as
well with lesser risk. Turning the spoon bowl toward the butt, makes a
very impressive sound too.

Usually the drama has as much effect as the actual spanking. :)

I remember, too, in school the embarrassment was far worse than the
"swat."

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 17:17:36 -0600, "Swingman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Dave Jackson" wrote in message
>
>> I was spanked as a child , but was WARNED that it would happen if I
>> continued disobeying my folks, and they followed through with the threat
>> even if they didn't really want to. I believe it taught me that there are
>> consequences for my actions. And, looking back, I KNOW I respected them
>more
>> than I would have if all they ever did was threaten to punish me and never
>> did. (This is a problem with a lot of today's kids) I raise mine kids the
>> same way. Spanking is NOT done out of anger, and if you threaten it and
>> follow through with it when needed, kids will know you mean business and
>> generally will correct their behavior without having to resort to
>paddling.
>> (which, by the way I DO NOT consider corporal punishment) I WILL NOT
>tell
>> a child numerous times to stop with the bad behavior. First time, a
>polite
>> "stop that". Second time "stop that or I'll paddle your behind". Third
>> time...well, it generally doesn't go that far, but I am I man of my
>> word.... --dave
>
>Bingo ... too bad there's not more parents with that attitude, and uncommon
>sense, in this day and age. The concept is time honored simplicity when
>training animals ... discipline/reward is only effective as the immediate
>consequence of an undesirable/desirable action, respectively.
>
>You smack a horse/dog/animal, or a kid, without the culprit knowing what it
>is they're getting whacked for, and you get a renegade.
>
>All my dad had to do (after that first initiation), was reach for his belt
>buckle ... like Pavlov's dog we knew kids immediately what NOT to do.

One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
own weight.

Now that would be a lesson...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 16:34:14 GMT, Doug Kanter <[email protected]> wrote:
> For some parents, the first response to misbehaving kids is a threat of
> physical punishment, followed shortly thereafter by the actual deed. Do you
> think this is something all parents should consider, or is it possible that
> some parents are more capable of using words to get kids to understand the
> rules?

First, we have to understand that not all misbehavior is the same and
that it has causes. Often "misbehavior" is completely normal behavior
of the child who thinks that he is doing the right thing. Either
exploring or imitating adults.

For example, a boy is imitating mommy cooking and accidentally breaks
a glass.

Should he be violently beaten (spanked) for that? I think that it
would be quite stupid. All he needs is to be given a plastic cup.

Second cause of misbehavior is attention seeking. The remedy is not
violence against children, but actually paying them some attention
that they deserve.

The third cause is that they are tired or stressed out, and beating
them for being tired does not seem like a smart idea to me.

The third cause is that they learn that having tantrums and such helps
them get what they want. That is because parents taught them that it
is the case. The remedy is not punishing them but being firmer about
what's not allowed.

Besides the fact that most instances of misbehavior are properly
addresses by looking at their causes, punishment is a valid concept
and is not reducable to spanking only.

There are numerous punishments that do not involve violence.

I find generalizations such as "children whose parents are violent to
them behave better" to be not grounded in any facts and is rather
supported by wishful thinking.

i

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 06:10:52 -0600, "Swingman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Kenneth" wrote in message
>
>> One might hope that the adults who advocate hitting children
>> have the opportunity to be hit by someone five times their
>> own weight.
>>
>> Now that would be a lesson...
>
>Yep ... I agree. It's a damn shame there's not someone around that size to
>whack all the misbehaving adults in this culture who make the rest suffer
>from their lack of discipline as children.

Hello again,

Your comment reveals the problem so very clearly that I
thought to respond:

We agree that disciplining children is extremely important
to their well being.

But you clearly equate "hitting" and "discipline."

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."