Bisquit Jointer vs Dowel Pro Jig

"Lew Hodgett" wrote
>
> "SBH" wrote:
>
>> Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done?
>
> What part of a router bit doing it's job (cutting wood) do you need
> explained?
>
The router bit goes round and round, round and round, round and round.

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Well......., you rarely get into trouble talking to yourself. And
> people tend to leave you alone too.
>
> It is like buying presents for yourself. You always get what you
> want. No need to suggest or change topics. With yourself, you are
> always on topic.
>

If you argue with yourself, don't forget the other guy's an idiot. :-)

Puckdropper
--
"The potential difference between the top and bottom of a tree is the
reason why all trees have to be grounded..." -- Bored Borg on
rec.woodworking

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

On Jul 15, 10:36=A0am, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> =A0I also don't count on the
> biscuits for alignment, except in a very rough sense. =A0I use a Lamello
> biscuit joiner and Lamello biscuits, which I believe to be more
> consistent in their properties than others that I have tried - and I
> still can't count on perfect alignment. =A0So, what I do is drive finish
> nails into one edge of each of the boards , more or less in the center
> of the edge of the board and more or less on the centerline between
> the biscuit slots. =A0Then I nip the heads off, leaving about a heavy
> eighth inch standing proud of the board edge. =A0When I carefully
> assemble the boards together during a later step the pins will keep
> the boards even along their faces as I apply clamping pressure. =A0It
> doesn't take very much time and it works.

How do you get the pins to go into the spot that creates perfect
alignment? The slightest pressure up or down could create an extremely
shallow "V", resulting into slightly misaligned boards. I don't know
if I'm explaining myself properly, but if you don't clamp with exact
even pressure, you might get misaligned boars. I.e. What do you mean
by "carefully assemble the boards together".

> I almost always use cauls top and bottom - this provides my final
> check for flatness of the glue up - but the pins help avoid all the
> beating and hollering that too often goes on at this point.

I would think that the pins might create some beating and hollering
rather than avoiding it. Sorry, I don't get it???

I am also happy to note that after a gazillion years of people saying
that they use biscuits "for alignment" in panel glue ups, that
everybody is fessing up that they actually cause a slight
misalignment. So it's not only me or my biscuit joiner or my
biscuits. :-)

Luigi

On Jul 13, 9:24=A0am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Jul 12, 2:37=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Jul 12, 3:35=A0pm, Angela Sekeris <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Domino. Best of both worlds.
>
> > Buying me one?
>
> Jeez.... I know you love to stir stuff up a bit, but let's not start
> sock puppet theater.
>
> =A0 ;^)
>
> We're watching, you know.
>
> Robert

LMAO!. The visual cracks me up.

Angela started up something with Google, I'm not sure what. I plop my
ass down in her study (adjacent to the kitchen) and go online while
the green tea steeps.
I don't always check who is logged in.... obviously.

Her comment?

"You talking to yourself now?"

r

On Jul 14, 2:34=A0am, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Domino. =A0Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! =A0Sure, but doe=
s it
> > make them strong? =A0Not according to all the tests I've seen.
>
> Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
> joints?

EVERYthing you always wanted to know about biscuits adding strength,
and more.
Scientific enough for me to prove that biscuits add strength.

http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/Abstract/abstract1.html

"Angela Sekeris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Domino. Best of both worlds.

Worst of the 'paying for it' world though. But, it's one of those things
that exemplifies 'you get what you pay for'. Only real consideration is how
often might it be used? If it's three or four times a year on relatively
small jobs, then it's just not worth the cost IMHO.

On Jul 11, 11:11=A0pm, Sonny <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=
=3D9976&filter=3D65730&pn=3D65730
>
> And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm=
?page=3D1309&filter=3D90224&pn=3D90224
>
> How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
> aligned, than is using dowels? =A0I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
> do have the dowel jig. =A0I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
> I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
> entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
> project. =A0I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
> but not as big.
>
> Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. =A0To me, in the
> past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
> each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
> drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
> length.
>
> Thanks.
> Sonny

Domino. Best of both worlds.

On Jul 12, 11:17=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Angela Sekeris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Domino. Best of both worlds.
>
> Well, =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0I was gunna say that =A0but it is a bit more expensi=
ve.

A good tool will (almost) always find a way for it to be used. I
allows you to tackle jobs you might not have otherwise.

(Mr. Watson, did you notice I inserted the *(almost)* nebulizer? Keeps
the anal nit-picking fucks away from my nits. <G>)

Leon wrote:
> "Angela Sekeris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> Domino. Best of both worlds.
>
>
> Well, I was gunna say that but it is a bit more expensive.

Unfortunately, it's probably not. Way back when the biscuit joiner was
introduced, people were running around touting it as the best thing
since sliced bread. Then everyone started using them and... they're
just not. They're great for alignment, certainly, but they're really
not going to add any strength to your joints and you can certainly do a
lot better. Now the tool is ubiquitous. The same will be true of the
Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.

In the end, the Domino will just be another piece of early-adopter junk,
in a few years everyone will have their own versions out, you can pick a
cheap one up at Harbor Freight for $30 and we'll be back to making our
own tenons because we realize it's not really a better way, just a
faster way.

> > How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
> > aligned, than is using dowels? =A0I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
> > do have the dowel jig. =A0I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
> > I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
> > entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
> > project. =A0I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
> > but not as big.
>

All I will do is vote with some of the previous posts. Biscuits are
quick and do add some strength; but they do not guarantee smooth
joints in themselves. You will still have to check joint smoothness
or do some sanding/planing afterward.

BTW, 1,200 bd ft will build a lot of entertainment center. Would love
to see pics when done (or in process).

RonB

"Robatoy" wrote

Her comment?

"You talking to yourself now?"
==========================

Well......., you rarely get into trouble talking to yourself. And people
tend to leave you alone too.

It is like buying presents for yourself. You always get what you want. No
need to suggest or change topics. With yourself, you are always on topic.

On Jul 12, 3:35=A0pm, Angela Sekeris <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 11, 11:11=A0pm, Sonny <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?pag=
e=3D9976&filter=3D65730&pn=3D65730
>
> > And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-http://www.rockler.com/product.c=
fm?page=3D1309&filter=3D90224&pn=3D90224
>
> > How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
> > aligned, than is using dowels? =A0I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
> > do have the dowel jig. =A0I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
> > I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
> > entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
> > project. =A0I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
> > but not as big.
>
> > Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. =A0To me, in the
> > past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
> > each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
> > drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
> > length.
>
> > Thanks.
> > Sonny
>
> Domino. Best of both worlds.

Buying me one?

Somebody wrote:
> Loose tenons in turn are slightly, but consistently and measurably
> weaker than real tenons.

Hard maple loose tenons, epoxied in place, gets my vote for simplicity
and highest strength.

TiteBondII for shortest clamp time.

Lew

>BTW, 1,200 bd ft will build a lot of entertainment center. Would love
>to see pics when done (or in process).


>RonB

Last year, I inherited a partial woodshop and a shed of lumber....
about the same amount of cherry and, also, lots of white oak and
walnut. Some of you may recall, back then, I had asked about an old
1950s Craftsman table saw and lathe. I did donate the table saw to a
worthy cause. A machinist friend made an extension for the lathe bed,
so now I can turn items nearly 8' long. I gave the old lathe cabinet
(on wheels - custom made) to a local young woodworker. I re-wired the
shaper (dry rotted wiring) and am debating keeping it or giving it.
There is a work table (2 solid doors hinged together, ie., flip top),
such that, not flipped, the table top work space is 30" X 7'.
Flipping half of the top, opened to a 60" X 7' work surface.... pretty
neat! I'm debating giving away this work table. Some time ago, I
bought the house next door and have been remodeling it for a
woodshop. Some of these inherited items don't fit my remodel/set-up
ideas/plans.

Actually, I've been looking at the cherry, also, so I'm not dead set
on using the mahogany. I've pulled out about 300 bd ft of each and
have been inspecting and trying to decide what might be best for the
project. Most boards are 1" X 8" X 12' (some 14 & 16 footers) and
many with coon/possum/roach/spider shit and other similar surface
stains. A light planing has taken care of most of the stains.

Today, I made 12 sets of panel clamps, 2" X 3" X 40" long to 60" long,
so buying them won't be necessary. My widest (back) panel will be
50". I'm still debating buying a bisquit jointer. I've been looking
at the slot cutters. I'll probably get both.

I do have an inspiration picture, but I can't post on abpw. I can
email the pic for those who want to see.

Sonny

On Jul 11, 8:11=A0pm, Sonny <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. =A0To me, in the
> past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
> each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
> drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
> length.

No question, the biscuit joiner is a lot faster. Lay out you boards,
mark a line every foot or so using your square, an go for it. But it
might have a little more slop in the alignment as not all biscuits are
created equal and you might move the machine an infinitesimal amount.
I prefer to use cauls and clamps.

Or you might consider the Lee Valley panel clamps & glue up a whole
bunch at once.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3D1&p=3D31181&cat=3D1,43838

Luigi

On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:28:15 -0700 (PDT), Luigi Zanasi
<[email protected]> wrote:


>How do you get the pins to go into the spot that creates perfect
>alignment? The slightest pressure up or down could create an extremely
>shallow "V", resulting into slightly misaligned boards. I don't know
>if I'm explaining myself properly, but if you don't clamp with exact
>even pressure, you might get misaligned boars. I.e. What do you mean
>by "carefully assemble the boards together".

I have the boards resting flat on the bottom cauls and I push them
together, one at a time. It doesn't seem to be a problem in practice.
I find that most misalignment problems show up when you try to clamp
the panel assembly up. The way that I do this is to put both the top
and bottom cauls in place and apply moderate pressure with the clamps
that go on the cauls, with the intent of keeping the panel flat.. Then
I apply the side clamping pressure. What I see too many guys do is
apply the side pressure before the cauls are engaged in keeping stuff
planar. Then, if they don't use pins, the joint lines creep and they
have so much clamping pressure applied that the caul clamps have a
hard time making up the difference. That's when most of the beating
and hollering occurs.

>
>I am also happy to note that after a gazillion years of people saying
>that they use biscuits "for alignment" in panel glue ups, that
>everybody is fessing up that they actually cause a slight
>misalignment. So it's not only me or my biscuit joiner or my
>biscuits. :-)
>

Well, it's true in a general sense. It is a lot easier to align a
face frame to a carcase using biscuits than it is to just slap on some
glue and try to clamp it up. Of course, you still need the judicious
application of force to get things into final alignment. That's why I
own a three pound dead blow. My goal is to get panels or assemblies
like the face frame to carcase to line up good enough that a few
scrapes with a cabinet scraper is all that is needed.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Jul 12, 2:37=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 12, 3:35=A0pm, Angela Sekeris <[email protected]> wrote:


> > Domino. Best of both worlds.
>
> Buying me one?

Jeez.... I know you love to stir stuff up a bit, but let's not start
sock puppet theater.

;^)

We're watching, you know.

Robert

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> EVERYthing you always wanted to know about biscuits adding strength,
> and more.

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> cheap one up at Harbor Freight for $30 and we'll be back to making our
> own tenons because we realize it's not really a better way, just a
> faster way.

NOT biscuits. Documentation that Domino joints are weaker and not a better
way.

"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> When I glue up solid wood panels I pay a lot of attention to stock
>> prep. Eliminate all cup, crook and bow on the jointer, or with a
>> plane. Get everything to the same thickness by making a final pass
>> through the planer or sander using the same setup for all the stock to
>> be machined. Rip all the pieces with a blade that will give you a
>> glue line edge.
>
> At this point, I definitely have no need for anything but glue, clamps and
> cauls. Hardly need cauls if everything is prepped to perfection..


Jack consider also that when thinking about a joint even an edge joint we
typically do not consider lthe board having a less than desirable edge. I
work with a lot of red oak and the edge of a perfectly straight board may
very well have grain that runs at an angle to the edge and eventually will
open up on the edge of the board. It is true that glue is most often
stronger than the wood itself so the joint line is unlikely to break. BUT
the wood itself is often weaker than the glue line and the extra tennon and
or biscuit in that joint adds strength to the board in from the joint line .
I have seen glued up boards break right beside the joint line along a weak
grain line. The better tennon or biscuit will help to reinforce the weaker
areas of of the board near the joint line.

"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> MikeWhy wrote:
>>
>>> Loose tenons in turn are slightly, but consistently and measurably
>>> weaker than real tenons.
>>
>> In all published tests I've seen there is usually less than 1% difference
>> in measured strength between the two, which, and depending upon the
>> project, makes for a favorable comparison when taking into account other
>> factors like convenience and speed, particularly when doing "production
>> runs" in a small shop setting.
>
> The specific reference was to the recent FWW article, apparently not on
> your reading list. That's almost ironic, thinking back to our past
> conversations. Come to think of it, I don't particularly recall *where* I
> read it. The test featured dovetails, M&T, biscuits, and loose tenons. I'm
> pretty sure it was FWW, probably December or January.
>
> Repeatable 1% variation even between two joints of the same type would be
> something to really crow about. If you can find a credible cite for 1%
> variability from M&T to loose tenon, I'll eat this keyboard I'm typing
> this on, every last sharp, broken shard of it, including the lead contents
> of its electronics. You wouldn't by chance care to restate what you wrote?
> I'm sure I read it wrong.

Think about it, loose tennons are typically made out of a straight grain
hard wood. The tennon sculpted from the end of the typical board very very
often has been done with less than desirable grain orientation. The loose
tennon is glued inside "both" pieces, not just the in the one piece so
regardless of the type wood you are using you get a more consistent strength
tennon.

"Brian Henderson" wrote:

> Most modern glues are stronger than the woods we use them on, if
> something fails, it's invariably the wood, not the glue itself.
> Therefore, the consideration, as you point out, is the joints we
> use, we cannot put forces on the joints that exceed their breaking
> strength and far too many people overestimate the strength of joints
> because they're fast or easy.

Having spent a few years doing machine design in my youth, was taught
to avoid depending on a weld or fasteners alone to carry the load.

As a result, joints were designed to put the material in compression
and welds were designed to be in shear.

The same design concepts apply to wood and adhesives used in
furniture/cabinet designs.

Glue joints are very strong when placed in shear.

Glue joints are not nearly as strong when placed in tensile loading.

Simple and straight forward, but sometimes we forget to apply the
basics.

Lew

In article <04f87b86-dd7f-4670-828b-96a38e19e938
@r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
> Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9976&filter=65730&pn=65730
>
> And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1309&filter=90224&pn=90224
>
> How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
> aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
> do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
> I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
> entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
> project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
> but not as big.
>
> Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the
> past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
> each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
> drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
> length.
>
> Thanks.
> Sonny
>

If you're really slow and super-careful I am sure dowels will be more
accurate - I can be really careful with bisquits and still sometimes get
an alignment error of 1/2mm or so (that's around 0.02 inches). It cleans
up with the minimal glue squeezeout.

However, bisquits are MUCH faster once you get to know some tricks, I'd
say by a factor of 10 or more (that is, I used to have locator jigs for
dowels but no drilling jig), and (good) bisquits are also considerably
stronger i.m.o.. Ever seen a chair or cheap table where dowels have
broken out the stretchers? Doesn't happen with bisquits. No way would I
go back to using dowels because of that alone. N O W A Y. It's the
way forces and leverages act on dowels and get transmitted back to the
board they're in. Not an issue with making panels, I grant you.

B.t.w. there's bisquits and then there's bisquits. I once ordered a box
of Lamello bisquits (compressed beech hardwood, manufactured to very
high standards) and got given some cheap pine ones instead --- I
foolishly accepted the delivery but in the end I gave that box away
after using about 20 or 50 of the sloppy uneven horrid things. (BIX
brand).

Makita and Lamello bisquit joiners are both very good, no idea about
other brands like PC; they're not sold here. Don't get a cheap knock-
off, but you knew that ;-) Friend tried to save some money and nearly
lost his thumb because of a design flaw. Couple of months' worth of
involuntary holiday resulted ... he's got a Lamello now.

-P.

MikeWhy wrote:

> Loose tenons in turn are
> slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker than real tenons.

In all published tests I've seen there is usually less than 1%
difference in measured strength between the two, which, and depending
upon the project, makes for a favorable comparison when taking into
account other factors like convenience and speed, particularly when
doing "production runs" in a small shop setting.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

J. Clarke wrote:
> StephenM wrote:
>>> ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat
>>> surprise coming.
>> I never say never
>
> When rely on glue and glue alone to hold up someone you care about, you
> _are_ saying "never". And if your wife or mother ends up with a chair leg
> up her butt because you made the chair with biscuits instead of dowels or
> mortise and tenon then you will never hear the end of it.

Most modern glues are stronger than the woods we use them on, if
something fails, it's invariably the wood, not the glue itself.
Therefore, the consideration, as you point out, is the joints we use, we
cannot put forces on the joints that exceed their breaking strength and
far too many people overestimate the strength of joints because they're
fast or easy. The best joints are always going to be integral M&T and
dovetail, I wouldn't risk anything ending up my wife's backside by using
less.

On Jul 13, 11:00=A0am, Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
> Peter Huebner wrote:
> > In article <04f87b86-dd7f-4670-828b-96a38e19e938
> > @r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
> >> I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
> >> entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
> >> project. =A0I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
> >> but not as big.
>
> >> Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. =A0To me, in the
> >> past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
> >> each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
> >> drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
> >> length.
> > If you're really slow and super-careful I am sure dowels will be more
> > accurate - I can be really careful with bisquits and still sometimes ge=
t
> > an alignment error of 1/2mm or so (that's around 0.02 inches). It clean=
s
> > up with the minimal glue squeezeout.
>
> I have a doweling jig and used it once when I was a beginner ww, it
> sucked, was really hard to use. =A0Then I used the table saw to run a
> grove and used a plywood spline, easier, but a pita. =A0I then got a glue
> joint for my molding head, still a pita. =A0I then learned joints simply
> need glued, no reason for dowels, splines or fancy glue joints.
>
> I never used a biscuit joiner but I've seen them in use and they look
> simple as all get out. =A0On the other hand, I use clamps and cauls as
> needed and never had a problem. =A0I just glue the stuff up and get joint=
s
> just as accurate as you get with a biscuit jointer, and never once had a
> glue up failure. I guess if I were in a small production commercial
> shop, I would look into the biscuit thing in place of cauls? =A0I know I
> see Norm and Scott on TV use about a hundred biscuits every couple of
> feet. =A0I think the most I would need in an 8' glue up would be 4, which
> is about one more than should be needed? =A0How warped is that wood?
>
> I guess if I spent $700+ on a biscuit joiner that wasn't needed for
> strength, and only lined things up a bit easier than using cauls, but
> not any better, I'd use the thing. =A0Otherwise, spend the money on a
> bunch of various types of clamps of which you can never have too many
> and have at it:-)
>
> --
> Jack
> Using FREE News Server:http://www.eternal-september.org/http://jbstein.co=
m- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

My father has a biscuit jointer, and I borrowed it once for doing some
edging. After a bit of trying, I found that no matter how careful I
was, I ended up getting errors as often as not(about 1/2 mm or so),
which added a lot of extra work. It might have been the model of
biscuit jointer, or my inexperience, I don't know. In any case, I got
out my router, and cut some splines. I got no error whatsoever after
many edges, so that's my prefered method now.

"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Luigi Zanasi wrote:
>

>
> I find it amazing anyone even uses a biscuit joiner, let alone a $700
> Festool domino? I always knew they were not needed in the least for
> strength in panel glue ups, but thought they would work nicely for
> alignment, but knew from experience I could glue up table tops and door
> panels easily with just clamps and cauls.


LOL, No you certainly don't need any of them but they do make life easier
and speed up production. Think about trading your TS in for a hand saw.
;~) The biscuit joiner is mostly helpful for alignment but does in deed add
significant strength when gluing end grain. The biscuit adds strength to 45
degree mitered joints and to butt joints. I have had 2 biscuit joiners and
eventually got the Domino. Now I have a machine that does what the biscuit
joiner did and a machine that affords me the opportunity to quickly and
easily make floating tennon joints which do indeed add lots of strength to
any joint


> I guess thats why I never bought one, but really, I like tools and could
> have talked myself into buying one eventually. This thread pretty much
> convinced me I don't need one at all. Sort of like a nail gun, I really,
> really want one (two), but have no use for it (them)...

;~) I started with one finish nailer 20 years ago, I have added a palm
nailer, brad nailer, air stapler, pinner, and framing nailer since. Can I
do the work with out them? Absolutely. If one broke today would I replace
it? Probably before the end of the day. It's one of those deals where you
wonder how you did with out them after you start using them. The
specialized tools open up more opportunities.

On Jul 15, 10:12=A0am, Jack Stein <[email protected]> wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
> > dpb wrote:
> >> Jack Stein wrote:
> >> ...
> >>> ... There is
> >>> little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a
> >>> properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. =A0...
> >> I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. =A0I don't think t=
he
> >> biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...
>
> >> OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
> >> included biscuits--I don't recall.
>
> > A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a biscui=
t
> > joint do that?
>
> I don't think a stub tenon will support much weight w/o glue? =A0Stub
> tenons are common in cabinet door construction.
>
> I don't own a biscuit machine, don't plan on buying one. =A0I'm still
> wondering if I should spend the cash on a decent rail and stile set for
> my shaper. =A0Having said that though, it appears that a properly fitted
> biscuit joint is comparable to a properly fitted M&T joint. =A0Reading
> Robotoys article:
>
> http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/Abstract/abstract1.html
>
> I noted that a guy that makes exterior doors and gates has found after 3
> 1/2 years of using plate joinery that he has had NO failures. =A0That
> would indicate that while M&T may be stronger, plate joints are strong
> enough for most applications.
>
> --
> Jack
> Using FREE News Server:http://www.eternal-september.org/http://jbstein.co=
m

Also, one must do a proper M&T joint for it to have all this 'magic'
strength. A poorly fitted, poorly proportioned M&T can be quite
fragile.

On Jul 11, 8:11=A0pm, Sonny <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=
=3D9976&filter=3D65730&pn=3D65730
>
> And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm=
?page=3D1309&filter=3D90224&pn=3D90224
<snip>

Thank you Sonny for starting a thread that ended with more than 50
replies dedicated to woodworking, including a relatively reasoned
debate on the merit of various joints.

Thanks,

Luigi

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:11:35 -0700 (PDT), Sonny <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -
>http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9976&filter=65730&pn=65730
>
>And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-
>http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1309&filter=90224&pn=90224
>
>How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
>aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
>do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
>I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
>entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
>project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
>but not as big.
>
>Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the
>past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
>each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
>drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
>length.
>
>Thanks.
>Sonny


When I glue up solid wood panels I pay a lot of attention to stock
prep. Eliminate all cup, crook and bow on the jointer, or with a
plane. Get everything to the same thickness by making a final pass
through the planer or sander using the same setup for all the stock to
be machined. Rip all the pieces with a blade that will give you a
glue line edge.

I machine biscuit slots about two inches in from a line that coincides
with what the finished ends will be and about every twelve inches
throughout the length. I use one biscuit on the centerline for boards
up to about 5/4 and a pair of biscuits set no less than 1/4 from the
faces above that thickness.

Here is where I differ from what some guys do:
In my opinion, and it is only an opinion but it is based on
observation and experience; I don't count on the biscuits for
strength, I think the glue line provides the strength. I use the
biscuits to reduce the clamp time so that I can have a quicker turn
around time on the glued up panels. I also don't count on the
biscuits for alignment, except in a very rough sense. I use a Lamello
biscuit joiner and Lamello biscuits, which I believe to be more
consistent in their properties than others that I have tried - and I
still can't count on perfect alignment. So, what I do is drive finish
nails into one edge of each of the boards , more or less in the center
of the edge of the board and more or less on the centerline between
the biscuit slots. Then I nip the heads off, leaving about a heavy
eighth inch standing proud of the board edge. When I carefully
assemble the boards together during a later step the pins will keep
the boards even along their faces as I apply clamping pressure. It
doesn't take very much time and it works.

I almost always use cauls top and bottom - this provides my final
check for flatness of the glue up - but the pins help avoid all the
beating and hollering that too often goes on at this point.

As always,

YMMV


Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Fri, 17 Jul 2009 08:49:21 -0500, Jack Stein <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> I use the biscuits to reduce the clamp time so that I can have a quicker turn
>> around time on the glued up panels.
>
>Not sure how that helps much, but OK. I generally do other things while
>the glue dries, and there is seldom enough time for me to get other
>stuff done. Also, if the glue isn't dry enough, I don't think I would
>depend on biscuits much to keep things together...
>

The Lamello biscuits are compressed beech and are intended to be used
with a white or yellow glue (aliphatic resin). The moisture from the
glue expands the biscuits to the degree that the clamps can be removed
in about half the usual time without the panel relaxing and damaging
the partially cured glue line.

This is important in a situation where you are making a number of
panels and want to keep production moving. I usually set up four
gluing stations and by the time I have the fourth panel in clamps the
first panel is ready to be removed from clamps.

BTW - biscuits have been around far longer than you might think. I've
disassembled door casings from the 30's that had what were referred to
as "Lemon Splines", essentially the same as biscuits but they were
machined with horizontal slotters and the lemon splines were not
compressed. Theses mitered joints were still in very good condition.




Regards,

Tom Watson
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Jul 12, 4:16=A0pm, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Angela Sekeris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Domino. Best of both worlds.

> Only real consideration is how often might it be used? If it's three
> or four times a year on relatively small jobs, then it's just not
> worth the cost IMHO.

A tool not worth the cost??????

You simply do not understand and are committing a serious heresy with
those words. Do you really belong on the wreck or are you just
trolling?

:-)

Luigi

On Jul 15, 2:56=A0pm, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
>=A0My goal is to get panels or assemblies
> like the face frame to carcase to line up good enough that a few
> scrapes with a cabinet scraper is all that is needed.

Agreed, that's why I use cauls & gave up on biscuits. & it works most
of the time, some time with a judicious application of the rubber
mallet in may case.

But I do see your nail/pins also having a use in preventing the slick
wet glued boards from slipping lengthwise.

Thanks Tom.

Luigi

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
> make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.

Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
joints?

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Sonny" wrote:
>
>> How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
>> aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
>> do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
> You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.
>
> A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20
> biscuits.
>
> Lew


Only good for th edges/ends of a board. Yo need a biscuit jointer if you
want to have a shelf in the middle of a panel.

On Jul 15, 6:10=A0pm, "SBH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > "Sonny" wrote:
>
> >> How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
> >> aligned, than is using dowels? =A0I don't have a bisquit jointer, but =
I
> >> do have the dowel jig. =A0I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
> > You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.
>
> > A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for =
#20
> > biscuits.
>
> > Lew
>
> Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done?
>
> Thank you

I think you 'll be able to find an explanation when you do a Google
search. (Don't tell anybody, but the natives get a little cranky
sometimes....)
=3D0)

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Sonny" wrote:
>
>> How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
>> aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
>> do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
> You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.
>
> A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20
> biscuits.
>
> Lew
>
Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done?

Thank you

Lew Hodgett wrote:

>
> "Sonny" wrote:
>
>> How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
>> aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but
>> I
>> do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
> You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.
>
> A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for
> #20 biscuits.
>
> Lew
I use my biscuit slot cutter all the time, works like a charm.
--
"You can lead them to LINUX
but you can't make them THINK"
Running Mandriva release 2008.0 free-i586 using KDE on i586
Website Address http://rentmyhusband.biz/

Sonny wrote:
> Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9976&filter=65730&pn=65730
>
> And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1309&filter=90224&pn=90224
>
> How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
> aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
> do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
>
> I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
> entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
> project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
> but not as big.
>
> Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the
> past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
> each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
> drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
> length.

Biscuits go very quickly, and the limited depth means that they can be used
where dowels aren't really practical. On the other hand they shouldn't be
used as a substitute for a mortise and tenon like dowels can.

For limited production you can cut biscuit slots with a router and a slot
cutter, but it's not nearly as convenient as using the purpose-made tool.

Peter Huebner wrote:
> In article <04f87b86-dd7f-4670-828b-96a38e19e938
> @r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...

>> I have 1200 bd ft of mahogany and am drawing out plans for an
>> entertainment center (12'W X 8'H X 25"D) .... no plywood on this
>> project. I have had, somewhat, similar panel projects in the past,
>> but not as big.
>>
>> Is using bisquits a faster process than using dowels. To me, in the
>> past, using dowels took lots of time, since I seem to measure and cut
>> each one individually, more so than using a standard measure/stop for
>> drilling holes and cutting the dowels (or most of them) to a set
>> length.

> If you're really slow and super-careful I am sure dowels will be more
> accurate - I can be really careful with bisquits and still sometimes get
> an alignment error of 1/2mm or so (that's around 0.02 inches). It cleans
> up with the minimal glue squeezeout.

I have a doweling jig and used it once when I was a beginner ww, it
sucked, was really hard to use. Then I used the table saw to run a
grove and used a plywood spline, easier, but a pita. I then got a glue
joint for my molding head, still a pita. I then learned joints simply
need glued, no reason for dowels, splines or fancy glue joints.

I never used a biscuit joiner but I've seen them in use and they look
simple as all get out. On the other hand, I use clamps and cauls as
needed and never had a problem. I just glue the stuff up and get joints
just as accurate as you get with a biscuit jointer, and never once had a
glue up failure. I guess if I were in a small production commercial
shop, I would look into the biscuit thing in place of cauls? I know I
see Norm and Scott on TV use about a hundred biscuits every couple of
feet. I think the most I would need in an 8' glue up would be 4, which
is about one more than should be needed? How warped is that wood?

I guess if I spent $700+ on a biscuit joiner that wasn't needed for
strength, and only lined things up a bit easier than using cauls, but
not any better, I'd use the thing. Otherwise, spend the money on a
bunch of various types of clamps of which you can never have too many
and have at it:-)

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Upscale wrote:
> "Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
>> make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.
>
> Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
> joints?

Perhaps he meant strongER. Edge gluing long grain to make panels rather
than using plywood is what the guy was asking about. It is well known
today's glue makes long grain joints stronger than the wood itself.
Ergo, the only purpose of dowels or biscuits in this type of joint is
alignment, not strength. My experience is to just glue up the joint
with no dowels, biscuits, splines or anything else is easy and
sufficient. IF I had a nice biscuit joiner, I might use it sparingly to
align things easily, but not for strength.

It is also well known that end grain joints require more than glue, and
need mortise and tenons, biscuits or dowels for strength. There is
little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a
properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. The biscuit joint is a heck of
a lot faster to make. Dowel joints suck and are difficult to make
without the proper equipment, and the little dowel jigs sold at hardware
stores ain't the proper equipment, in my limited experience.

From watching all the tool salesman on TV, they seem to use biscuits
mostly for edge gluing, and they use like a million of them on each
edge, with glue squirting out everywhere. Really lame.

Mortise and tenon is occasionally still used by Norm to sell the Delta
mortiser I reckon, but Scott tends to use the Kreg Pocket hole machine
for about everything. I do have the pocket hole thingee, also have a
mortise machine. Not sure why the $700 Festool gadget is not used for
this stuff, as it seems it's mainly what it's good for.

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Upscale wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> EVERYthing you always wanted to know about biscuits adding strength,
>> and more.
>
> "Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> cheap one up at Harbor Freight for $30 and we'll be back to making our
>> own tenons because we realize it's not really a better way, just a
>> faster way.
>
> NOT biscuits. Documentation that Domino joints are weaker and not a better
> way.

FWW did a pretty comprehensive set of joint style/fit/glues test a year
or two ago at the lab at (iirc) Case Western.

I _believe_ I remember that loose tenons came in _slightly_ behind
integral ones; not greatly, but a little iirc.

--

Jack Stein wrote:
...
> ... There is
> little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a
> properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. ...

I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the
biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...

OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
included biscuits--I don't recall.

--

"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jack Stein wrote:
> ...
>> ... There is little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is
>> comparable to a properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. ...
>
> I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the
> biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...
>
> OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
> included biscuits--I don't recall.

Biscuits came out far worse than loose tenons. Loose tenons in turn are
slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker than real tenons. He tested
both initial failure and residual strength after first failure.

dpb wrote:
> Jack Stein wrote:
> ...
>> ... There is
>> little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a
>> properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. ...
>
> I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the
> biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...
>
> OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
> included biscuits--I don't recall.

A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a biscuit
joint do that?

MikeWhy wrote:
...
> Biscuits came out far worse than loose tenons. Loose tenons in turn are
> slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker than real tenons. He
> tested both initial failure and residual strength after first failure.

That's exactly what one would expect given the mechanical differences
between them--and I was pretty sure I remembered the test results
confirming it for the two m&ts, but didn't remember whether the biscuits
were included in that set of testing or not.

I'd never think of using them for the purpose for anything other than
simply holding a face frame together or some other similar non-critical,
non-stressed location.

--

StephenM wrote:
>>> OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
>>> included biscuits--I don't recall.
>>
>> A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a
>> biscuit joint do that?
>>
>
>
> That's a silly question. You would never use a biscuit w/o glue.
> Biscuits are compressed at manufacture so that the glue will expand
> them for a tight fit upon *proper* installation.
>
> So... you are asking how well a product performs when improperly
> installed.

Google "rhetorical question".

> By contrast the M&T joint was designed before the invention of modern
> glue. Back in the day, when glue could be expected to fail over time,
> that was a real consideration.

ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat surprise
coming.

StephenM wrote:
>> ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat
>> surprise coming.
>
> I never say never

When rely on glue and glue alone to hold up someone you care about, you
_are_ saying "never". And if your wife or mother ends up with a chair leg
up her butt because you made the chair with biscuits instead of dowels or
mortise and tenon then you will never hear the end of it.

Brian Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
: Upscale wrote:
:> "Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
:>> Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
:>> make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.
:>
:> Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
:> joints?

: They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not
: mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did
: not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and
: look at the moment.

Their initial 2007 review was extremely positive:

http://www.popularwoodworking.com/article/Domino_System_From_Festool/

They also gave it a "best new tool" award a couple of years ago.


I couldn't find a strength test (or more recent review) on their site.

-- Andy Barss

Brian Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
: Upscale wrote:
:> "Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
:>> Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
:>> make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.
:>
:> Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
:> joints?

: They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not
: mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did
: not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and
: look at the moment.


Found it: Fine Woodworking, January 2009.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=31926
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011203036.pdf

and letters and discussion here:

http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/ToolGuide/ToolGuidePDF.aspx?id=31926


There's another interesting discussion here, which includes a suggestion
that the culprit is the indentations on the dominos:

http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=7083.0


-- Andy Barss

Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Brian Henderson" wrote:
>
>> Most modern glues are stronger than the woods we use them on, if
>> something fails, it's invariably the wood, not the glue itself.
>> Therefore, the consideration, as you point out, is the joints we
>> use, we cannot put forces on the joints that exceed their breaking
>> strength and far too many people overestimate the strength of joints
>> because they're fast or easy.
>
> Having spent a few years doing machine design in my youth, was taught
> to avoid depending on a weld or fasteners alone to carry the load.
>
> As a result, joints were designed to put the material in compression
> and welds were designed to be in shear.
>
> The same design concepts apply to wood and adhesives used in
> furniture/cabinet designs.
>
> Glue joints are very strong when placed in shear.
>
> Glue joints are not nearly as strong when placed in tensile loading.
>
> Simple and straight forward, but sometimes we forget to apply the
> basics.

Further, the statement that "the glue is stronger than the wood itself"
applies to commonplace species of wood glued into face grain. Gluing some
of the exotics is problematical, and gluing end grain is as well. Note that
in the Fine Woodworking test the butt joint was the only one that failed in
the glue line.

Then there's the issue of creep--keep PVA under constant load and it moves,
slowly, if the design of the joint doesn't prevent it from doing so.

J. Clarke wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> Jack Stein wrote:
>> ...
>>> ... There is
>>> little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is comparable to a
>>> properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. ...
>> I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the
>> biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...
>>
>> OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
>> included biscuits--I don't recall.
>
> A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a biscuit
> joint do that?

I don't think a stub tenon will support much weight w/o glue? Stub
tenons are common in cabinet door construction.

I don't own a biscuit machine, don't plan on buying one. I'm still
wondering if I should spend the cash on a decent rail and stile set for
my shaper. Having said that though, it appears that a properly fitted
biscuit joint is comparable to a properly fitted M&T joint. Reading
Robotoys article:

http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/Abstract/abstract1.html

I noted that a guy that makes exterior doors and gates has found after 3
1/2 years of using plate joinery that he has had NO failures. That
would indicate that while M&T may be stronger, plate joints are strong
enough for most applications.

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

MikeWhy wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Jack Stein wrote:

>>> ... There is little doubt that a properly fitted biscuit joint is
>>> comparable to a properly fitted mortise and tenon joint. ...

>> I think there's a _great_deal_ of doubt about that. I don't think the
>> biscuits will even remotely approach a m&t, loose tenon or not...

>> OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
>> included biscuits--I don't recall.

> Biscuits came out far worse than loose tenons. Loose tenons in turn are
> slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker than real tenons. He
> tested both initial failure and residual strength after first failure.

OK, then the question would be, is a biscuit joint weaker to the point
it makes a difference? It would seem to me that if the joints were
failing, no one would be using the $700 biscuit joiner? I know they are
not needed for strength in long grain joints such as the original poster
was asking, but assume they must work for end gain joints or why would
anyone spend $700 on a Festool Domino, or a $30 HF for that matter?

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

StephenM wrote:
>>> OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
>>> included biscuits--I don't recall.
>> A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a biscuit
>> joint do that?

> That's a silly question.

I agree.

> You would never use a biscuit w/o glue. Biscuits
> are compressed at manufacture so that the glue will expand them for a tight
> fit upon *proper* installation.

I hear this all the time, and always wonder what happens when the
moisture in the glue evaporates and the swelling recedes? Ideally, I
would want the tenon to be stable, and the mortise to shrink around the
tenon, not the other way around. I guess the glue itself could remain
keeping the swelling up, but still, any moisture will eventually
evaporate, and swelling should recede, right?

In other words, if the swelling DOESN'T last more than 4 hours, should I
call the doctor?

> So... you are asking how well a product performs when improperly installed.
>
> By contrast the M&T joint was designed before the invention of modern glue.
> Back in the day, when glue could be expected to fail over time, that was a
> real consideration.

Really though, glue simply doesn't work well on end grain, ergo the
reason for M&T, plate, pocket screws, dowels and so on are still in use
today. Glue failures cause all joints (dependent on glue) to fail, so
joining techniques haven't changed joint failure rates much, but glue
has. (Not sure that came out right, but I'm in a hurry)

Pocket screws do not require glue at all, and watching the TV guys apply
a pint of glue (clear white glue so you can't see it when it oozes out
all over your wood until you stain it at which point the folly of your
ways has GOT to bite you in the ass, but not enough to keep you off the
tv) always gives me pause to chuckle.

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

J. Clarke wrote:
> StephenM wrote:
>>>> OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
>>>> included biscuits--I don't recall.
>>> A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a
>>> biscuit joint do that?
>>>
>>
>> That's a silly question. You would never use a biscuit w/o glue.
>> Biscuits are compressed at manufacture so that the glue will expand
>> them for a tight fit upon *proper* installation.
>>
>> So... you are asking how well a product performs when improperly
>> installed.
>
> Google "rhetorical question".
>
>> By contrast the M&T joint was designed before the invention of modern
>> glue. Back in the day, when glue could be expected to fail over time,
>> that was a real consideration.
>
> ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat surprise
> coming.

If you think a M&T joint will be working after the glue fails, you also
have a big surprise coming.

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Jack Stein wrote:
...
> OK, then the question would be, is a biscuit joint weaker to the point
> it makes a difference? It would seem to me that if the joints were
> failing, no one would be using the $700 biscuit joiner? I know they are
> not needed for strength in long grain joints such as the original poster
> was asking, but assume they must work for end gain joints or why would
> anyone spend $700 on a Festool Domino, or a $30 HF for that matter?

Yes.

They're fine for face frames, light panels, etc., etc., etc., ... Their
main advantage and why they're used as much as are is quick and easy and
accurate.

They won't/don't replace m&t for anything that has any actual
load--heavy doors, chair rails, etc., ...

--

"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> StephenM wrote:
>> You would never use a biscuit w/o glue. Biscuits are compressed at
>> manufacture so that the glue will expand them for a tight fit upon
>> *proper* installation.
>
> I hear this all the time, and always wonder what happens when the moisture
> in the glue evaporates and the swelling recedes? Ideally, I would want
> the tenon to be stable, and the mortise to shrink around the tenon, not
> the other way around. I guess the glue itself could remain keeping the
> swelling up, but still, any moisture will eventually evaporate, and
> swelling should recede, right?

Biscuits are mechanically compressed and dried. They don't shrink back to
their manufactured size even after redrying in a kiln. They need to be
stored in closed containers to minimize swelling from the moisture in the
air.

> In other words, if the swelling DOESN'T last more than 4 hours, should I
> call the doctor?

Simplest test: wet one with a sponge and see what happens at the end of 4
hours. Try baking it for those 4 hours, just to be sure. (I haven't tried
it. Just passing on my understanding of biscuits.)

Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
: On Jul 15, 6:10 pm, "SBH" <[email protected]> wrote:
:> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
:>
:> news:[email protected]...
:>
:> > "Sonny" wrote:
:>
:> >> How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
:> >> aligned, than is using dowels?  I don't have a bisquit jointer, but I
:> >> do have the dowel jig.  I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.
:>
:> > You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.
:>
:> > A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for #20
:> > biscuits.
:>
:> > Lew
:>
:> Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done?
:>
:> Thank you

: I think you 'll be able to find an explanation when you do a Google
: search. (Don't tell anybody, but the natives get a little cranky
: sometimes....)
: =0)


Good suggestion, but the basics for the original poster are:

The advantage of a dedicated biscuit joiner are that you can put
slots into the edge of a piece of wood or plywood (there is a fence that
pivots down; fence is placed against the wide part of the board,
and the spring-mounted joiner is pushed into the wood, cuting a slot),
and the face of a piece of wood, by clamping a fence (i.e. another
piece of wood) across the board, retracting the joiner's fence,
and placing the joiner up against the board.

You can do the same operations, but not quite as comfortably, with a
plunge router (assuming you have one). For edge jointing,
you use a bit that has a narrow, wide cutter (like an
upside down T, with the upright part the shaft of the router
bit), which cuts into the wood's edge.

For slots in the middle of a board, you plunge a straight bit into the wood and
move the router along a fence so it's the right length.

Personally, I'd use a biscuit joiner if I have more than a few of
these slots to cut.

-- Andy Barss

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> MikeWhy wrote:
>
>> Loose tenons in turn are slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker
>> than real tenons.
>
> In all published tests I've seen there is usually less than 1% difference
> in measured strength between the two, which, and depending upon the
> project, makes for a favorable comparison when taking into account other
> factors like convenience and speed, particularly when doing "production
> runs" in a small shop setting.

The specific reference was to the recent FWW article, apparently not on your
reading list. That's almost ironic, thinking back to our past conversations.
Come to think of it, I don't particularly recall *where* I read it. The test
featured dovetails, M&T, biscuits, and loose tenons. I'm pretty sure it was
FWW, probably December or January.

Repeatable 1% variation even between two joints of the same type would be
something to really crow about. If you can find a credible cite for 1%
variability from M&T to loose tenon, I'll eat this keyboard I'm typing this
on, every last sharp, broken shard of it, including the lead contents of its
electronics. You wouldn't by chance care to restate what you wrote? I'm sure
I read it wrong.

Luigi Zanasi wrote:

> I am also happy to note that after a gazillion years of people saying
> that they use biscuits "for alignment" in panel glue ups, that
> everybody is fessing up that they actually cause a slight
> misalignment. So it's not only me or my biscuit joiner or my
> biscuits. :-)

I find it amazing anyone even uses a biscuit joiner, let alone a $700
Festool domino? I always knew they were not needed in the least for
strength in panel glue ups, but thought they would work nicely for
alignment, but knew from experience I could glue up table tops and door
panels easily with just clamps and cauls.

I guess thats why I never bought one, but really, I like tools and could
have talked myself into buying one eventually. This thread pretty much
convinced me I don't need one at all. Sort of like a nail gun, I
really, really want one (two), but have no use for it (them)...

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Tom Watson wrote:

> When I glue up solid wood panels I pay a lot of attention to stock
> prep. Eliminate all cup, crook and bow on the jointer, or with a
> plane. Get everything to the same thickness by making a final pass
> through the planer or sander using the same setup for all the stock to
> be machined. Rip all the pieces with a blade that will give you a
> glue line edge.

At this point, I definitely have no need for anything but glue, clamps
and cauls. Hardly need cauls if everything is prepped to perfection.

> I machine biscuit slots about two inches in from a line that coincides
> with what the finished ends will be and about every twelve inches
> throughout the length. I use one biscuit on the centerline for boards
> up to about 5/4 and a pair of biscuits set no less than 1/4 from the
> faces above that thickness.

Wow!

> Here is where I differ from what some guys do:
> In my opinion, and it is only an opinion but it is based on
> observation and experience; I don't count on the biscuits for
> strength, I think the glue line provides the strength.

Yet you put one (or two) every 12"?

> I use the biscuits to reduce the clamp time so that I can have a quicker turn
> around time on the glued up panels.

Not sure how that helps much, but OK. I generally do other things while
the glue dries, and there is seldom enough time for me to get other
stuff done. Also, if the glue isn't dry enough, I don't think I would
depend on biscuits much to keep things together...

I also don't count on the biscuits for alignment, except in a very
rough sense. I use a Lamello
> biscuit joiner and Lamello biscuits, which I believe to be more
> consistent in their properties than others that I have tried - and I
> still can't count on perfect alignment.

So then the whole purpose of biscuits is to reduce gluing time, because
alignment ain't it, and strength ain't it?

So, what I do is drive finish nails into one edge of each of the boards
, more or less
in the center of the edge of the board and more or less on the
centerline between
> the biscuit slots. Then I nip the heads off, leaving about a heavy
> eighth inch standing proud of the board edge. When I carefully
> assemble the boards together during a later step the pins will keep
> the boards even along their faces as I apply clamping pressure. It
> doesn't take very much time and it works.

Yes, that sounds like an idea. Personally, I like cauls and clamps, and
really like as little metal as possible in my woodwork. I think the
nail pins you use would be particularly useful if one had no planer, or
sander to insure perfect equal thickness of the boards and needed one
face flat, and the other could vary a bit. Then a domino, or pins would
be helpful to get one flat face.

> I almost always use cauls top and bottom - this provides my final
> check for flatness of the glue up - but the pins help avoid all the
> beating and hollering that too often goes on at this point.

A little beating and hollering gives a piece character, or at least
keeps the wife and kids out of your way:-)

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

Robatoy wrote:

>>>> Jack Stein wrote:

>> I noted that a guy that makes exterior doors and gates has found after 3
>> 1/2 years of using plate joinery that he has had NO failures. That
>> would indicate that while M&T may be stronger, plate joints are strong
>> enough for most applications.

> Also, one must do a proper M&T joint for it to have all this 'magic'
> strength. A poorly fitted, poorly proportioned M&T can be quite
> fragile.

I watched Norm build an exterior door out of like 2" Mahogany and he
used floating tenons. He made 3/8" mortises 2 1/2 deep in the rails and
styles. He then glued in the floating tenons in each style. They were
a perfect fit in thickness, but had about a 1/4" play on each side of
the mortise. He said that was not important... I guess he is right but
I never saw that done before. More often, I've seen the tenon sides
rounded over for a prefect fit in the router made mortise.

Just thought I'd mention that...

BTW, the only hard part in making the exterior door was paying for the
wood, which Norm said was "expensive". My guess is it was just a bit
under a wheelbarrow full in Obama money. Certainly not even a billion...

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

MikeWhy wrote:

> Biscuits are mechanically compressed and dried. They don't shrink back
> to their manufactured size even after redrying in a kiln. They need to
> be stored in closed containers to minimize swelling from the moisture in
> the air.

I never knew this. Do they come in a hermetically sealed mayonnaise jar
(asks Jack wearing his best Johnny Carson turban hat?) Seriously, a
good idea then would be to store them in a mayonnaise jar, with some of
that desiccant thing-ees that come with pills or packaged with some
tools and electronic things. I store those small tubes of super glue
gel in baby food jars or old pill containers with those things in them
to keep the moisture away...

>> In other words, if the swelling DOESN'T last more than 4 hours, should
>> I call the doctor?
>
> Simplest test: wet one with a sponge and see what happens at the end of
> 4 hours. Try baking it for those 4 hours, just to be sure. (I haven't
> tried it. Just passing on my understanding of biscuits.)

--
Jack
Using FREE News Server: http://www.eternal-september.org/
http://jbstein.com

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> MikeWhy wrote:
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> MikeWhy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Loose tenons in turn are slightly, but consistently and measurably
>>>> weaker than real tenons.
>>>
>>> In all published tests I've seen there is usually less than 1%
>>> difference in measured strength between the two, which, and depending
>>> upon the project, makes for a favorable comparison when taking into
>>> account other factors like convenience and speed, particularly when
>>> doing "production runs" in a small shop setting.
>>
>> The specific reference was to the recent FWW article, apparently not on
>> your reading list. That's almost ironic, thinking back to our past
>> conversations. Come to think of it, I don't particularly recall *where* I
>> read it. The test featured dovetails, M&T, biscuits, and loose tenons.
>> I'm pretty sure it was FWW, probably December or January.
>>
>> Repeatable 1% variation even between two joints of the same type would be
>> something to really crow about. If you can find a credible cite for 1%
>> variability from M&T to loose tenon, I'll eat this keyboard I'm typing
>> this on, every last sharp, broken shard of it, including the lead
>> contents of its electronics. You wouldn't by chance care to restate what
>> you wrote? I'm sure I read it wrong.
>
> OK, let's take your particular "specific reference" then, where the
> strength differential is less than 3% ... doing NOTHING whatsoever to
> change the thrust/point of my statement.
>
> And check those panties, Bubba ... untwisted, they'll improve your
> attitude/demeanor by at least that much.

<shrug> Your "1%" is complete bullshit. Just man up and say so.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> MikeWhy wrote:
>>>
>>>> Loose tenons in turn are slightly, but consistently and measurably
>>>> weaker than real tenons.
>>>
>>> In all published tests I've seen there is usually less than 1%
>>> difference in measured strength between the two, which, and depending
>>> upon the project, makes for a favorable comparison when taking into
>>> account other factors like convenience and speed, particularly when
>>> doing "production runs" in a small shop setting.
>>
>> The specific reference was to the recent FWW article, apparently not on
>> your reading list. That's almost ironic, thinking back to our past
>> conversations. Come to think of it, I don't particularly recall *where* I
>> read it. The test featured dovetails, M&T, biscuits, and loose tenons.
>> I'm pretty sure it was FWW, probably December or January.
>>
>> Repeatable 1% variation even between two joints of the same type would be
>> something to really crow about. If you can find a credible cite for 1%
>> variability from M&T to loose tenon, I'll eat this keyboard I'm typing
>> this on, every last sharp, broken shard of it, including the lead
>> contents of its electronics. You wouldn't by chance care to restate what
>> you wrote? I'm sure I read it wrong.
>
> Think about it, loose tennons are typically made out of a straight grain
> hard wood. The tennon sculpted from the end of the typical board very
> very often has been done with less than desirable grain orientation. The
> loose tennon is glued inside "both" pieces, not just the in the one piece
> so regardless of the type wood you are using you get a more consistent
> strength tennon.

FWIW, the author also expressed surprise. I was more interested in the
dovetail tests.

"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> When I glue up solid wood panels I pay a lot of attention to stock
>> prep. Eliminate all cup, crook and bow on the jointer, or with a
>> plane. Get everything to the same thickness by making a final pass
>> through the planer or sander using the same setup for all the stock to
>> be machined. Rip all the pieces with a blade that will give you a
>> glue line edge.
>
> At this point, I definitely have no need for anything but glue, clamps and
> cauls. Hardly need cauls if everything is prepped to perfection.
>
>> I machine biscuit slots about two inches in from a line that coincides
>> with what the finished ends will be and about every twelve inches
>> throughout the length. I use one biscuit on the centerline for boards
>> up to about 5/4 and a pair of biscuits set no less than 1/4 from the
>> faces above that thickness.
>
> Wow!
>
>> Here is where I differ from what some guys do:
>> In my opinion, and it is only an opinion but it is based on
>> observation and experience; I don't count on the biscuits for
>> strength, I think the glue line provides the strength.
>
> Yet you put one (or two) every 12"?

It's for face alignment during the glue up, not strength afterward. There's
nothing scientific about it. For an edge joint 3' or 4' long, 3 biscuits
"feels" too few; 4 biscuits works out to about a foot or so between each; 5
feels a bit over done.

> ROF,L. If you think that glue never fails you have a big fat surprise
> coming.

I never say never

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> MikeWhy wrote:
>
>> Loose tenons in turn are slightly, but consistently and measurably weaker
>> than real tenons.
>
> In all published tests I've seen there is usually less than 1% difference
> in measured strength between the two, which, and depending upon the
> project, makes for a favorable comparison when taking into account other
> factors like convenience and speed, particularly when doing "production
> runs" in a small shop setting.


AND I would think stronger where you are using harder stronger tennons than
the wood they are joining.

Upscale wrote:
> "Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> Domino. Ooh look, it makes loose tenon joints easy! Sure, but does it
>> make them strong? Not according to all the tests I've seen.
>
> Perhaps, you'd like to quote those tests depicting some of those weaker
> joints?

They did one a month or so ago in Popular Woodworking, if I'm not
mistaken, comparing the strength of different joints. The Domino did
not perform very well. I'm just not anywhere where I can go back and
look at the moment.

"SBH" wrote:

> Being new to the craft, can you explain how this is done?

What part of a router bit doing it's job (cutting wood) do you need
explained?

Lew

"Jack Stein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> MikeWhy wrote:
>
>> Biscuits are mechanically compressed and dried. They don't shrink back to
>> their manufactured size even after redrying in a kiln. They need to be
>> stored in closed containers to minimize swelling from the moisture in the
>> air.
>
> I never knew this. Do they come in a hermetically sealed mayonnaise jar
> (asks Jack wearing his best Johnny Carson turban hat?) Seriously, a good
> idea then would be to store them in a mayonnaise jar, with some of that
> desiccant thing-ees that come with pills or packaged with some tools and
> electronic things. I store those small tubes of super glue gel in baby
> food jars or old pill containers with those things in them to keep the
> moisture away...
>

I have a box of Lamello biscuits sitting in the original shipping container,
a cardboard box with no liner.

MikeWhy wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> MikeWhy wrote:
>>
>>> Loose tenons in turn are slightly, but consistently and measurably
>>> weaker than real tenons.
>>
>> In all published tests I've seen there is usually less than 1%
>> difference in measured strength between the two, which, and depending
>> upon the project, makes for a favorable comparison when taking into
>> account other factors like convenience and speed, particularly when
>> doing "production runs" in a small shop setting.
>
> The specific reference was to the recent FWW article, apparently not on
> your reading list. That's almost ironic, thinking back to our past
> conversations. Come to think of it, I don't particularly recall *where*
> I read it. The test featured dovetails, M&T, biscuits, and loose tenons.
> I'm pretty sure it was FWW, probably December or January.
>
> Repeatable 1% variation even between two joints of the same type would
> be something to really crow about. If you can find a credible cite for
> 1% variability from M&T to loose tenon, I'll eat this keyboard I'm
> typing this on, every last sharp, broken shard of it, including the lead
> contents of its electronics. You wouldn't by chance care to restate what
> you wrote? I'm sure I read it wrong.

OK, let's take your particular "specific reference" then, where the
strength differential is less than 3% ... doing NOTHING whatsoever to
change the thrust/point of my statement.

And check those panties, Bubba ... untwisted, they'll improve your
attitude/demeanor by at least that much.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Angela Sekeris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Domino. Best of both worlds.


Well, I was gunna say that but it is a bit more expensive.

>> OK, now you've done it; I'm going to have to go see if the FWW tests
>> included biscuits--I don't recall.
>
> A mortise and tenon will support weight without any glue, will a biscuit
> joint do that?
>


That's a silly question. You would never use a biscuit w/o glue. Biscuits
are compressed at manufacture so that the glue will expand them for a tight
fit upon *proper* installation.

So... you are asking how well a product performs when improperly installed.

By contrast the M&T joint was designed before the invention of modern glue.
Back in the day, when glue could be expected to fail over time, that was a
real consideration.

-Steve

I Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>> You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.
>>
>> A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered
>> for #20 biscuits.
>>
>> Lew
------------------------------------------------------

"Leon" wrote:
=====================================
> Only good for th edges/ends of a board. Yo need a biscuit jointer
> if you want to have a shelf in the middle of a panel.
==================================

Read again.

Think that 5/32" straight bit might be ueful for something?

Lew

"Sonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:04f87b86-dd7f-4670-828b-96a38e19e938@r36g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> Here is Rockler's Dowel Pro Jig -
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=9976&filter=65730&pn=65730
>
> And their Porter-Cable Bisquit Jointer-
> http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=1309&filter=90224&pn=90224
>
>Snip


The PlateJoiner will be less fussy with left and right alingment. It will
also be a faster process.
A warning however, alswys use the fence to index the plat joiner and have
the edge/ end of the wood always hang over the end of the bence. This will
help insure that the plate jointer does not rest on the table/bench top.
Debris under the work piece and or plate joiner will throw off slot
locations.

"Sonny" wrote:

> How much better (and faster) is using bisquits, for keeping boards
> aligned, than is using dowels? I don't have a bisquit jointer, but
> I
> do have the dowel jig. I'm considering getting the bisquit jointer.

You don't need to buy a busquit joiner if you have a router.

A 5/32" slot cutter and a 5/32 straight bit and you you're covered for
#20 biscuits.

Lew