I've been following the other thread on 240 and 120 volt circuits on
the same line. Is this at all possible, under code?
Let's say I want to add a 240 and 120 line to outlets immediately
below my subpanel. I have only two slots left. If I run 12/3 cable
(black, red, white, and bare ground), can this be done? The first box
would be 240 volt, and use the two hots (black and red), and the bare
ground, but NOT the white (neutral). The white (neutral) and one of
the hots (black) and the bare ground would continue to the second
outlet box, which would result in a 120 volt circuit. Is this code? If
so, what do I use for breakers? A double-pole 40 amp, or two separate
20 amps? I realize they must be beside each other, so that the black
and red hot wires will be on L1 and L2.
If it is a double-pole 40 amp, could the 120 volt line still trip the
breaker if overloaded?
Further, could you run the first 240 volt box (black, red, bare
ground), then a 120 volt box (black, white, bare ground), and then
another 120 volt box (red, white, bare ground)? What breaker
combination would you use then?
I would just run a separate line, but my box is running out of space.
I should also add that I assume the 240 volt box would NOT be running
at the same time as either 120 volt circuit.
Thanks for any info. I know that, logically, this setup would work.
But, is it code, and is it wise?
tt
"Test Tickle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've been following the other thread on 240 and 120 volt circuits on
> the same line. Is this at all possible, under code?
>
> Let's say I want to add a 240 and 120 line to outlets immediately
> below my subpanel. I have only two slots left.
I would use the 2 slots to run the 240volt outlet. I would then run the
120volt outlet off of a slot that already feeds 120 volt outlets by
replacing the existing breaker with the kind that has two spaces on them
(sorry, I can't remember what those breakers are called)
Another option would be to run a subpanel off of this panel
Frank
Yeah Doug,
The work was done by an electrican. Had to sign a waiver and he did the job
even the city signed off on it with warning. As the city inspector said to
me "short cuts lead to short circuits". The hassels with the insurrance and
all was not worth the money saved. Do it right the first time or don't do
it at all.
The thing that kills me is simply Yes it can be done as everyone has talked
about and the city will sign off on it but you just put yourself at a fine
line or I should say a fire line! One thing I was told by the Insurrance
company that if it was a commercial building the city would have never
allowed it in the first place!
Lesson learned: All or any modifications to my home shop and home are done
based upon commercial code! Overkill perhaps, but I sleep better at nite.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Not Telling"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> >I have followed these two threads and they both remind me of what I did
and
> >should have done before the electric fire I had. Looking at it in its
> >simplest form what we have in a 240VAC are really two 120VAC's. The
diff's
> >lie with the circuit panel whereas mentioned already is the AMP rating.
Do
> >not know where you live but local laws apply when you do a job like this
so
> >check first otherwise if a electrical fire arises! good luck getting your
> >insurance money. Lets say a rating of 240VAC is 40 amps. However
whether
> >you actually get 240VAC is another question by law you must under rate
the
> >amp load by 20%, (use Ohms law) next if we take a only a 120VAC leg again
> >amp load is under cut by 20%. Now, since we are relying on the original
> >240VAC to trip a 120VAC leg it will not happen early enough. Why because
> >the maxium safety amp rating on 120VAC is 30amps with a earth ground
copper
> >rod. 20 amps with earth ground galv pipe. We have now created the
perfect
> >condition for a electrical fire. However, if and when it strikes is
another
> >matter. I used the above approach for a very long time. Then one day
when
> >I was gone it happend ELECTRICAL FIRE! no equipment was running at the
time.
> >To make a long story short, based upon the insurance and fire department
> >investigation over time the electricity broke down the components and
wiring
> >sheaths and shorted. Yea right! but after the fire the only tool
untouched
> >was my table saw (110VAC). I took the motor apart and examined the motor
> >windings and brushes. Sure enough I saw evidence of arc's on the
windings
> >and severe electrical arc burns on the brushes. Fact or fallacy as the
> >cause or result of using a leg off a 220VAC?
> >
> I think I understand why you had an electrical fire. Please don't attempt
any
> more electrical work in the future.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
I haven't seen any actually code that forbids mixing 240v and 120v, but the
requirement that it be done in a workman like method might be enough to
bounce it.
You try to keep circuits as simple as possible, so the next guy doesn't do
something stupid. Multiwire circuits are bad enough, but 240v and 120v
combined is probably going too far.
I kinda dissagree with the guy who says that inspectors frown on half size
breakers. Nothing wrong with them as far as I am aware.
I had a FPE box in a house once. An electrican friend told me to not waste
money on a welder, just short circuit a wire and go to work.
"Childfree Scott" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > > If it is a double-pole 40 amp, could the 120 volt line still trip the
> > > breaker if overloaded?
> >
> > If you have a Federal Pacific panel, probably not. :)
>
> From my personal experience, even the single pole FPE breakers are bad
also.
I have followed these two threads and they both remind me of what I did and
should have done before the electric fire I had. Looking at it in its
simplest form what we have in a 240VAC are really two 120VAC's. The diff's
lie with the circuit panel whereas mentioned already is the AMP rating. Do
not know where you live but local laws apply when you do a job like this so
check first otherwise if a electrical fire arises! good luck getting your
insurance money. Lets say a rating of 240VAC is 40 amps. However whether
you actually get 240VAC is another question by law you must under rate the
amp load by 20%, (use Ohms law) next if we take a only a 120VAC leg again
amp load is under cut by 20%. Now, since we are relying on the original
240VAC to trip a 120VAC leg it will not happen early enough. Why because
the maxium safety amp rating on 120VAC is 30amps with a earth ground copper
rod. 20 amps with earth ground galv pipe. We have now created the perfect
condition for a electrical fire. However, if and when it strikes is another
matter. I used the above approach for a very long time. Then one day when
I was gone it happend ELECTRICAL FIRE! no equipment was running at the time.
To make a long story short, based upon the insurance and fire department
investigation over time the electricity broke down the components and wiring
sheaths and shorted. Yea right! but after the fire the only tool untouched
was my table saw (110VAC). I took the motor apart and examined the motor
windings and brushes. Sure enough I saw evidence of arc's on the windings
and severe electrical arc burns on the brushes. Fact or fallacy as the
cause or result of using a leg off a 220VAC?
Your guess is good as mine. I can tell you that it took me 9 months to get
the Insurance to pay. After which they cancelled my policy. Today, I
still use 120VAC legs off a 220VAC but with one big difference. I use a
high voltage power distribution transformer. It supplies 220VAC and 120VAC
in a safe manner and can turn every light and tool on. Yes, it cost me
money about $800.00 but can tell you that the insurance company even gave me
a 20% discount on my policy after installing it. My friend also picked one
up at a auction for $50.00, twice the capacity of mine.
"Test Tickle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've been following the other thread on 240 and 120 volt circuits on
> the same line. Is this at all possible, under code?
>
> Let's say I want to add a 240 and 120 line to outlets immediately
> below my subpanel. I have only two slots left. If I run 12/3 cable
> (black, red, white, and bare ground), can this be done? The first box
> would be 240 volt, and use the two hots (black and red), and the bare
> ground, but NOT the white (neutral). The white (neutral) and one of
> the hots (black) and the bare ground would continue to the second
> outlet box, which would result in a 120 volt circuit. Is this code? If
> so, what do I use for breakers? A double-pole 40 amp, or two separate
> 20 amps? I realize they must be beside each other, so that the black
> and red hot wires will be on L1 and L2.
>
> If it is a double-pole 40 amp, could the 120 volt line still trip the
> breaker if overloaded?
>
> Further, could you run the first 240 volt box (black, red, bare
> ground), then a 120 volt box (black, white, bare ground), and then
> another 120 volt box (red, white, bare ground)? What breaker
> combination would you use then?
>
> I would just run a separate line, but my box is running out of space.
> I should also add that I assume the 240 volt box would NOT be running
> at the same time as either 120 volt circuit.
>
> Thanks for any info. I know that, logically, this setup would work.
> But, is it code, and is it wise?
>
> tt
On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 03:16:45 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, Test Tickle <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I've been following the other thread on 240 and 120 volt circuits on
>>the same line. Is this at all possible, under code?
>
>Yes.
>
>>Let's say I want to add a 240 and 120 line to outlets immediately
>>below my subpanel. I have only two slots left. If I run 12/3 cable
>>(black, red, white, and bare ground), can this be done? The first box
>>would be 240 volt, and use the two hots (black and red), and the bare
>>ground, but NOT the white (neutral). The white (neutral) and one of
>>the hots (black) and the bare ground would continue to the second
>>outlet box, which would result in a 120 volt circuit. Is this code?
>
>Yes.
>
>>If so, what do I use for breakers? A double-pole 40 amp, or two separate
>>20 amps? I realize they must be beside each other, so that the black
>>and red hot wires will be on L1 and L2.
>
>None of the above. Use a double-pole 20-amp breaker.
Thanks Doug. I meant double-pole 20 amp, but thanks for the info and
the correction.
tt
In article <[email protected]>,
Test Tickle <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>I've been following the other thread on 240 and 120 volt circuits on
>the same line. Is this at all possible, under code?
>
>Let's say I want to add a 240 and 120 line to outlets immediately
>below my subpanel. I have only two slots left. If I run 12/3 cable
>(black, red, white, and bare ground), can this be done? The first box
>would be 240 volt, and use the two hots (black and red), and the bare
>ground, but NOT the white (neutral). The white (neutral) and one of
>the hots (black) and the bare ground would continue to the second
>outlet box, which would result in a 120 volt circuit. Is this code?
Iffy.
> If
>so, what do I use for breakers? A double-pole 40 amp, or two separate
>20 amps? I realize they must be beside each other, so that the black
>and red hot wires will be on L1 and L2.
a 'double-pole' breaker, of appropriate load rating, is required.
note: 40A requires 8 ga wire.
>
>If it is a double-pole 40 amp, could the 120 volt line still trip the
>breaker if overloaded?
>
>Further, could you run the first 240 volt box (black, red, bare
>ground), then a 120 volt box (black, white, bare ground), and then
>another 120 volt box (red, white, bare ground)? What breaker
>combination would you use then?
From a standpoint of theory, "yes", "Code" may say otherwise.
Again, you simply need a double-pole breaker of appropriate
amperage.
>
>I would just run a separate line, but my box is running out of space.
>I should also add that I assume the 240 volt box would NOT be running
>at the same time as either 120 volt circuit.
>
>Thanks for any info. I know that, logically, this setup would work.
>But, is it code, and is it wise?
If you _really_ need 40A @240, adding 120V outlets on the circuit
is *DEFINITELY*UNWISE*AND*UNSAFE. Without commenting on 'code' issues.
If you put a 'standard' 120V outlet on, it is only rated for 15A
loads. even 'Heavy Duty" ones are only rated for 20A. And they're
designed to take *ONLY* wire of appropriate gauge for _that_ load.
(e.g. 12 ga. but to be safe for a 40A circuit, the wiring needs to
be 8 ga. -- problem!)
Using that material where the breaker won't trip until you have a
load "significantly" in excess of 40A is _asking_ for troubles.
Like starting a fire, and burning the place down.
Depending on the type of panel you have, you -may- be able to get
'half-slot' breakers. Inspectors tend to 'frown on' them, but they
are usually 'technically legal'.
If they're allowed where you are, put a double-pole 240 breaker in
the two blank slots, for the 240 outlet. *AND* _replace_ one of
the existing breakers with a double 'half-slot' breaker. use 1 half-
slot to control the -existing- circuit, and the other half-slot for
the new 120V outlet.
The alternative is to put in a sub-panel. Using those last 2 slots
for a high-capacity breaker for the feed to the sub-panel. And putting
the breakers for the actual 'outlet' circuits' in the sub-panel.
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 23:17:13 -0500, "Greg O"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Test Tickle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I've been following the other thread on 240 and 120 volt circuits on
>> the same line. Is this at all possible, under code?
>>
>> Let's say I want to add a 240 and 120 line to outlets immediately
>> below my subpanel. I have only two slots left.
>
>Why not just add some 1/2 height/double, (what ever you call them!), 120
>volt breakers on some old circuits, or add a sub panel? seems to be more
>logical than what you are thinking of!
>Greg
>
This is already a subpanel, and even though I could squeeze some
tandem breakers in, the panel is only rated for a certain number of
circuits.
tt
Test Tickle wrote:
> If it is a double-pole 40 amp, could the 120 volt line still trip the
> breaker if overloaded?
If you have a Federal Pacific panel, probably not. :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
I am not an expert, although I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express this
summer, so I don't know if the code allows this. And I am not giving advice
here, but if'n it was me, I would wire up a stinger box on a short pigtail
cable to accomplish that. It ain't hard wirin' so the code nazi's can't get
ya, and it'll get ya where you're trying to go. Is it wise? About a
million carpenters can't be wrong.
--
Bill Pounds
http://www.bill.pounds.net/woodshop
"Test Tickle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've been following the other thread on 240 and 120 volt circuits on
> the same line. Is this at all possible, under code?
>
> Let's say I want to add a 240 and 120 line to outlets immediately
> below my subpanel. I have only two slots left. If I run 12/3 cable
> (black, red, white, and bare ground), can this be done? The first box
> would be 240 volt, and use the two hots (black and red), and the bare
> ground, but NOT the white (neutral). The white (neutral) and one of
> the hots (black) and the bare ground would continue to the second
> outlet box, which would result in a 120 volt circuit. Is this code? If
> so, what do I use for breakers? A double-pole 40 amp, or two separate
> 20 amps? I realize they must be beside each other, so that the black
> and red hot wires will be on L1 and L2.
>
> If it is a double-pole 40 amp, could the 120 volt line still trip the
> breaker if overloaded?
>
> Further, could you run the first 240 volt box (black, red, bare
> ground), then a 120 volt box (black, white, bare ground), and then
> another 120 volt box (red, white, bare ground)? What breaker
> combination would you use then?
>
> I would just run a separate line, but my box is running out of space.
> I should also add that I assume the 240 volt box would NOT be running
> at the same time as either 120 volt circuit.
>
> Thanks for any info. I know that, logically, this setup would work.
> But, is it code, and is it wise?
>
> tt
"Test Tickle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've been following the other thread on 240 and 120 volt circuits on
> the same line. Is this at all possible, under code?
>
> Let's say I want to add a 240 and 120 line to outlets immediately
> below my subpanel. I have only two slots left.
Why not just add some 1/2 height/double, (what ever you call them!), 120
volt breakers on some old circuits, or add a sub panel? seems to be more
logical than what you are thinking of!
Greg
In article <[email protected]>, "Not Telling" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have followed these two threads and they both remind me of what I did and
>should have done before the electric fire I had. Looking at it in its
>simplest form what we have in a 240VAC are really two 120VAC's. The diff's
>lie with the circuit panel whereas mentioned already is the AMP rating. Do
>not know where you live but local laws apply when you do a job like this so
>check first otherwise if a electrical fire arises! good luck getting your
>insurance money. Lets say a rating of 240VAC is 40 amps. However whether
>you actually get 240VAC is another question by law you must under rate the
>amp load by 20%, (use Ohms law) next if we take a only a 120VAC leg again
>amp load is under cut by 20%. Now, since we are relying on the original
>240VAC to trip a 120VAC leg it will not happen early enough. Why because
>the maxium safety amp rating on 120VAC is 30amps with a earth ground copper
>rod. 20 amps with earth ground galv pipe. We have now created the perfect
>condition for a electrical fire. However, if and when it strikes is another
>matter. I used the above approach for a very long time. Then one day when
>I was gone it happend ELECTRICAL FIRE! no equipment was running at the time.
>To make a long story short, based upon the insurance and fire department
>investigation over time the electricity broke down the components and wiring
>sheaths and shorted. Yea right! but after the fire the only tool untouched
>was my table saw (110VAC). I took the motor apart and examined the motor
>windings and brushes. Sure enough I saw evidence of arc's on the windings
>and severe electrical arc burns on the brushes. Fact or fallacy as the
>cause or result of using a leg off a 220VAC?
>
I think I understand why you had an electrical fire. Please don't attempt any
more electrical work in the future.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
In article <[email protected]>, "Wade Lippman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I haven't seen any actually code that forbids mixing 240v and 120v, but the
>requirement that it be done in a workman like method might be enough to
>bounce it.
Naaaah.
>You try to keep circuits as simple as possible, so the next guy doesn't do
>something stupid. Multiwire circuits are bad enough, but 240v and 120v
>combined is probably going too far.
Sorry, Wade, but you're waaaay off base here. This is common, and definitely
*is* permitted by Code.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
In article <[email protected]>, Test Tickle <[email protected]> wrote:
>I've been following the other thread on 240 and 120 volt circuits on
>the same line. Is this at all possible, under code?
Yes.
>Let's say I want to add a 240 and 120 line to outlets immediately
>below my subpanel. I have only two slots left. If I run 12/3 cable
>(black, red, white, and bare ground), can this be done? The first box
>would be 240 volt, and use the two hots (black and red), and the bare
>ground, but NOT the white (neutral). The white (neutral) and one of
>the hots (black) and the bare ground would continue to the second
>outlet box, which would result in a 120 volt circuit. Is this code?
Yes.
>If so, what do I use for breakers? A double-pole 40 amp, or two separate
>20 amps? I realize they must be beside each other, so that the black
>and red hot wires will be on L1 and L2.
None of the above. Use a double-pole 20-amp breaker.
>If it is a double-pole 40 amp, could the 120 volt line still trip the
>breaker if overloaded?
No, it would start a fire first. That's why you *must* use 20-amp breakers to
protect #12 wire.
>
>Further, could you run the first 240 volt box (black, red, bare
>ground), then a 120 volt box (black, white, bare ground), and then
>another 120 volt box (red, white, bare ground)? What breaker
>combination would you use then?
Yes, you can. Same breaker as above: double-pole 20 amp.
>I would just run a separate line, but my box is running out of space.
>I should also add that I assume the 240 volt box would NOT be running
>at the same time as either 120 volt circuit.
>
>Thanks for any info. I know that, logically, this setup would work.
>But, is it code, and is it wise?
>
It's permitted by Code, as long as you lose the idea of using 40-amp breakers,
and stick with the 20-amp breakers that are required for use with #12 wire.
Is it wise? As long as you label everything properly, to indicate that the two
120V receptacles are fed off of the 240V circuit, I don't see a problem there.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)