Stupid Woodworking Mistake

J. Clarke wrote:
> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>>>
>>>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>>> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>>>
>>> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
>>> "gigabytes"). "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>>>
>>>
>> The 360-40 mainframe I worked on in 1969 had a whopping 256KB. It
>> could run three partitions of apps under OS/360-MFT. The older 7094
>> had 32K of 36-bit oil-cooled magnetic core memory. Took a 55 gallon
>> drum of oil dumped into the memory and about 2-3 days with the
>> heaters running to get it up to temp so we could boot it.
>
> And one of those machines could support a remarkable number of
> simultaneous users.
>
> You might want to check out http://www.jaymoseley.com/hercules/.
>
Brings back memories. I was a IBM Program Support Rep or Software CE.
One of our jobs was to install PTFs on customer machines. Very early in
my IBM career - which started in 1966, I decided to bring one of my
customers completely up to date by installing every PTF that might apply
to them. Took me over a day to back them all out. From that point
forward, I never applied any PTF unless the customer was having a
specific problem that a PTF referenced, and I was always ready to back
it out.

On Dec 1, 11:48 am, "Rick M"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote >
>
> > Which is why I'll be handling the ShopBot assembly myself. Can't know
> > too much about the gear you're running.
>
> Hey Rob ... glad to hear you're finally getting your shopbot. A suggestion
> ... if you're using the shopbot table, they use carriage bolts as the
> leveling feet ... and the small contact surface does a lovely dance on
> concrete flooring. I recommend getting some rubber-bottomed machinery feet
> (say from McMaster Carr) or making your own ... before you start assembly.
> How is that solid surface material in compression ... would it hold up as a
> foot (with rubber glued to the bottom)?

AKAIK, you can only get the Bots now only with their table. It seems
there were too many issues when people didn't build their own tables
with enough care. Makes sense.
Good idea to put some machine-style feet under that whole thing. Even
a minor bit of rubber can have a very noticeable effect on noise
transfer into the floor.
>
> Also, once you've set the 'bot in place, take a permanent marker and outline
> the footprint so you'll know if the machine has been nudged.

Excellent idea.
>
> A word of caution ... do NOT move the carriages by pushing them. Always use
> the computer to drive them. The ONLY time you should move the carriages by
> hand is after disconnecting ALL the stepper motors from the control box. You
> WILL destroy the TVS protection devices in the control box (not expensive,
> just a pain in the butt to replace).

Again, thanks for that advice. Incidentally, I cannot get over how
helpful everybody I talk to, is.
The guys at ShopBot asked all the right questions and have a huge
amount of knowledge about everything to do with their machine....even
how they live in the solid surface environment.
That shouldn't be a big surprise, but their willingness to share it
_is_ a big surprise.
Stuff I had no way of knowing..i.e. the 4 HP spindle will give me 4HP
at the optimum speed for solid surface. The 5HP has to be throttled
down to that speed at which point it no longer puts out 5 HP.
Makes perfect sense.
Also the 3phase vs single phase was cleared up in no uncertain terms.

I don't have the money for a Rootes-style sucker just yet, so I'm
hoping the a pair of Turbo III's will do me for now as solid surface
is very flat so I won't have to worry about sucking the cup out of
warped plywood. For small parts, I will also freely steal ideas from
Morris...BTW... I haven't seen him around lately. I hope all is well
there. I like his pod ideas. Also, the Turbos can do double duty as
sanding suckers.
>
> I'm moving my 'bot from the garage to the basement shop ... so I get to
> disassemble and reassemble the entire machine. I'm going to steal some great
> ideas from Morris' shop photos (like covering the entire bed area with
> plywood rather than just using a 4x8 sheet, and installing permanent X and Y
> zero rails).
>
The little bit I understand about zero rails, that seems like a good
idea.

Just one decision left. A 60 x 96 or a 60 x 144. That has to do more
with material handling outside of the 'bot's physical size than
anything else. Even though the new shop is nice and big, a 12' sheet,
being fed into a 12' machine and pieces as big as 8' coming out the
other end is a problem for me as I don't have an uninterrupted 32'
stretch... columns, you see.
An 8 footer might be big enough as countertops seldom reach 12 feet
without a seam... and seams I can do on-site without having to drag
huge hunks of countertop through peoples' houses.
Also, the possible resale of an 8 footer might be helpful?

So much to learn...(I haven't been this excited in years..)

as always, thanks

r

On Dec 1, 8:52 am, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:24:56 GMT, Brian Henderson
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Only if you don't want someone who has demonstrated an ability to
> >recover from failure and an ability to handle it.
>
> There you have it!

Which is why I'll be handling the ShopBot assembly myself. Can't know
too much about the gear you're running. A friend of mine had his
daughter, at age 15, help him build a Volkswagen Beetle (old style)
from the ground up. By the time she was off to college, she' was
wrenching all the other kids' cars. No mechanic will ever pull the
wool over her eyes.
My daughters all do their own hook-ups and software installs on
whatever they're using. They all know that by dad doing everything,
they won't learn anything.
All those ideas include a fair share of screw-ups.

Give a man a fish when he's hungry, he'll be back for another one
tomorrow.
TEACH a man to fish and he'll be back borrowing money for a new motor
for his bass boat.

On Dec 3, 12:27 pm, Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
> > "Maxwell Lol" wrote in message
> >> "Swingman" writes:
>
> >>> On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year
> > old
> >>> laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);
> >> Say again?
>
> > On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year old
> > laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);
>
> > Anything else?
>
> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?

My apple tech now talks in terms of 'sticks'. 1/2 a stick is 512
megs.. a whole stick is 1 gig, a couple of sticks...you get the
picture..then there is the double stick...
"Stick a few sticks in there.."
"Naaa...just add a couple of sticks."
"Ya need more sticks."

I think Leon meant 2 sticks. <G>

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
>> "Maxwell Lol" wrote in message
>>> "Swingman" writes:
>>>

>>
>>
> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?

LOL, That too!

B A R R Y wrote:

> charlieb wrote:
>>
>> How you deal with "failure" can be just as valuable a lesson
>> as how to deal with "success".
>
> I believe Bill Gates said he preferred to hire people who had failed at
> least once.

Well, that explains a few things.

Not that there is anything wrong with failure, I'm just a little leery of
anyone who uses it as a criteria for hiring.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>B A R R Y wrote:
>
>> charlieb wrote:
>>>
>>> How you deal with "failure" can be just as valuable a lesson
>>> as how to deal with "success".
>>
>> I believe Bill Gates said he preferred to hire people who had failed at
>> least once.
>
> Well, that explains a few things.
>
> Not that there is anything wrong with failure, I'm just a little leery of
> anyone who uses it as a criteria for hiring.
>
>
> --
> If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Criteria" is plural, so the above sentence may qualify you for employment
with Bill Gates! Just kidding, but couldn't resist.
Kerry

Robatoy wrote:

> On Nov 30, 11:22 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>> B A R R Y wrote:
>>
>> > charlieb wrote:
>>
>> >> How you deal with "failure" can be just as valuable a lesson
>> >> as how to deal with "success".
>>
>> > I believe Bill Gates said he preferred to hire people who had failed at
>> > least once.
>>
>> Well, that explains a few things.
>>
>> Not that there is anything wrong with failure, I'm just a little leery
>> of
>> anyone who uses it as a criteria for hiring.
>>
> Failure sucks if/when the shrapnel ends in someone else's lap...like
> Vista.
> I was at FutureShop (like a BestBuy) store looking for a PC for my
> ShopBot (coming soon).
> In the 30 minutes I was there, just in the spot where I was standing,
> two different people said they'd have a specific model computer, IF it
> came with XP instead. The tech replied: "we get a LOT of that."
> Vista is a failure. Bill Gates hired the right people for that.

No, no, you've got it all wrong -- Vista was the opportunity for some of
Bill's folks to raise their status in his eyes. After the failure that is
Vista, those folks ought to be up for promotion by at least a couple job
grades. :-)



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Puckdropper wrote:

> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Robatoy wrote:
>>
>
> *snip, trim*
>
>>> In the 30 minutes I was there, just in the spot where I was standing,
>>> two different people said they'd have a specific model computer, IF
>>> it came with XP instead. The tech replied: "we get a LOT of that."
>>> Vista is a failure. Bill Gates hired the right people for that.
>>
>> No, no, you've got it all wrong -- Vista was the opportunity for
>> some of
>> Bill's folks to raise their status in his eyes. After the failure
>> that is Vista, those folks ought to be up for promotion by at least a
>> couple job grades. :-)
>>
>
> Vista is the OS/2 2.1 of the 2000's. It's really quite neat, but needs
> too much computing horsepower to run well.
>

Msoft put primary effort into 2 things for Vista: 1) A slick interface to
appeal to users. It's cool but the way it is implemented Aero Glass is
very resource intensive. However, the user interface is the thing that all
users interact with and thus the slicker it is, the better impression of
the operating system. My cynical personal view is that this was the candy
used to lure users into the predator's house, giving them something sweet
while hiding the underlying near-evil in the rest of the OS. That
near-evil being 2) Security: However, to Msoft, this word doesn't mean
what you think it means. They did do a passing nod to some elements of the
security users need as far as better process protection and better network
protection. However, the network protection came with an absolutely
abysmal interface ("are you sure you want to do this?" yes "are you
really sure?":
<http://images.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/apple-getamac-security_480x376.mov>)
in some instances. However, to Msoft, the real issue of security was
locking things down with their implementation of Digital Restrictions
Management (DRM). This has implications across the board, it is why many
display drivers are broken, it is one of the primary execution speed and
resource hogging elements of Vista. (www.gripe2ed.com from InfoWorld has
some very good information, as do a number of other links at
www.infoworld.com). The requirements Msoft has flowed down to component
vendors requiring encrypting data streams between computer components in
order to prevent people from tapping data streams and making sure that you
can't access any of the outputs to record data streams is going to have
implications far beyond computer security. This especially applies if you
plan to use a computer in a high-end audio or video system. What you are
actually going to hear coming from your speakers will not be the high
quality signal for which you paid because you might be tapping that stream
and pirating it, so you are going to get a degraded signal. The whole
thing seems to be another attempt by Msoft to further their vendor lock-in
and start locking out other OS's by raising the component driver
development cost and freezing out the other OS's by making the encryption
mechanisms proprietary and protected.


Yes, I know that DRM is really supposed to mean "Digital Rights Management",
but when you burrow into it, what the Msoft and RIAA implementations of DRM
does is restrict the rights of users from doing many things that would be
legal under copyright laws and restricting the rights of first sale
doctrine. It really does restrict the rights of the purchaser more than
protect the rights of the copyright holder.

When Vista came out, I did quite a bit of reading regarding the OS and the
implications of what it was doing. Among other resources, the following is
a good overview, it's somewhat detailed. Other information exists as well,
an ask.com search for "vista flaws" returns almost 3/4 million hits.
<http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html>

My research drove my decision to make XP the last Msoft OS I run at home
and moved to OpenSuse linux with my "new" computer (bought as surplus from
my employer refresh program). While linux does have some sharp edges and I
am still looking for (OK, convincing myself when to pull the trigger
because of the cost) a good 3D CAD program, I have been very happy with my
decision. The system only phones home to find out if new updates are
available, it runs fast, and the KDE interface has some features I like
better than Windows interfaces. As far as application costs goes, most
applications are actually cheaper while delivery the same functionality.
My applications:
Office OpenOffice, word processor, spreadsheet, and presentation software.
This is actually a step up from my small business version of Msoft Office,
Powerpoint was not included with that license. Cost: Free

Home Finances MoneyDance (www.moneydance.com). I've not been happy with
the way Intuit continues to lobotomize Quicken and sunset versions making
people upgrade to maintain connectivity to bank accounts because they
changed formats, etc. Some things MoneyDance does I like better than
Quicken, some not so much. It's not that it is better or worse, just
different. Cost: $30.00 for a full-featured version.

For windows applications, I purchased Cross-over Office to allow running a
number of applications under Wine. Applications that I have that work:
Lotus 123 I have some spreadsheets with Macros I don't want to spend the
time to convert

TreePad Personal organizer. I used to use KeyNote, a freeware code that
does what TreePad does, but Keynote didn't run under Wine very well and
treepad was able to read my Keynote file.

Browser Firefox

Mail Thunderbird

I have run into some media files that won't play, but for the most part
everything plays well under xine using the SMPlayer or Kplayer systems.
Digitally Restricted files like those from iTunes or other purchased music
must be converted to MP3 before you can play it under Linux.


> The next version of OS/2, Warp 3, actually required less computing
> resources than its predecessor.
>

My opinion is that Vista is the next Windows ME, another Msoft OS that was
pretty much ignored. However, just as ME served as a testbed for some of
the features that went into XP, my guess is that Vista is serving as a
testbed for some of the Digital Restrictions Management that Msoft plans to
put into its next OS and it will work to make that next OS more palatable
than Vista.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

user wrote:

> mac davis wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:22:11 -0700, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> B A R R Y wrote:
>>>
>>>> charlieb wrote:
>>>>> How you deal with "failure" can be just as valuable a lesson
>>>>> as how to deal with "success".
>>>> I believe Bill Gates said he preferred to hire people who had failed at
>>>> least once.
>>> Well, that explains a few things.
>>>
>>> Not that there is anything wrong with failure, I'm just a little leery
>>> of
>>> anyone who uses it as a criteria for hiring.
>>
>> Might be why we reboot so often.. good thing they don't make power tools!
>>
>>
>> mac
>>
>> Please remove splinters before emailing
> [user@localhost ~]$ uptime
> 19:24:11 up 111 days, 2:34, 3 users, load average: 0.54, 0.21, 0.13
> [user@localhost ~]$
>
> PCLinuxOS 2007

I'm not quite there yet, still a few issues that occasionally crop up
necessitating a re-boot. Last time was an OpenSUSE security update that
required a kernel update and reboot. It's been months since I've had to
re-boot to fix a lockup however.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

J. Clarke wrote:

> Maxwell Lol wrote:
>> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> Msoft put primary effort into 2 things for Vista: 1) A slick
>>> interface to appeal to users. It's cool but the way it is
>>> implemented Aero Glass is very resource intensive.
>>
>>
>> In other words, you MUST buy a new computer to use the interface.
>> That's MS's business model - forcing people to buy a new computer
>> every three years.
>
> My 5 year old machine runs Vista just fine. Why would Microsoft have
> any interest in forcing people to buy new computers? They don't sell
> computers.
>

Are you running the Aero Glass with full effects on your 5 year-old
machine?

Msoft doesn't necessarily have any interest in forcing people to buy new
computers, their programming however does require more than currently
deployed machines to fully utilize all new features. Msoft has pretty much
always been that way.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Leon wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>>
>>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>>
>> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
>> "gigabytes").
>> "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>
>
> LOL, My first DOS 2.0 computer had 640k ram and two 360 floppies for massive
> storage, no hard drive, 1985.
>
>
The first computer I programmed was a Burroughs E101. It was the size
of a desk and did about as much. IIRC it had four external pin boards
with 100 (?) instructions and paper tape I/O. This was a fledgling CS
department at Pasadena City College under Dr. Yett. Ask me about
machine language programming, rotating disk memories, DDAs, and 4 bit
PCs sometime. A sure cure for insomnia unless you can get all misty
inside over the early days of computing.
EDPly yours,
jo4hn

Larry W wrote:
> The large majority of MS OS sales is those included with a new
> system. They also have significant revenues from application
> software that is bundled with new systems. Prior to an antitrust
> settlement some eyars ago, they in fact collected revenue from PC
> manufacturers even on systems sold WITHOUT any MS products.


Not quite as nefarious as you might think......They simply sold/negotiated
site licenses where-as the PC company got a cheaper per unit rate for a
"every unit sold" contract. Largely a easier and simpler way to insure
accurate accounting of actual sales.....some PC companies were known to
fudge a bit on actual software installs. Since Microsoft was in business to
sell software any buyer could as well negotiate a per installed unit price.
Do you think IBM paid a DOS fee for every computer sold? Since the market
place for IBM PC's and compatibles was overwhelmingly Microsoft based the
demand for other OS's was next to nil anyway......Nonetheless the market
place was freely able to choose anyone's OS......Rod

On Dec 3, 10:18 am, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:c32e3d9a-8b67-49b5-9846-4c74d809a9b7@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> >>> --
>
> >> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP Home and
> >> Pro?
>
> > When I bought our last few computers from Dell they explained that the Pro
> > version offered more security over the Home version. They especially
> > pushed it for wireless lap tops.
>
> XP Pro also supports multiple monitors, a must for me.

Yup, two monitors. I don't care much about security as the Windows
side of things will never go on-line. All it will do is mundane tasks,
like Cutsheet and ShopBot software (but not to run the controller,)
although I will need an OS for that too.

.eCabinets mostly.

http://www.ecabinetsystems.com/

r

On Nov 30, 11:22 pm, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
> B A R R Y wrote:
>
> > charlieb wrote:
>
> >> How you deal with "failure" can be just as valuable a lesson
> >> as how to deal with "success".
>
> > I believe Bill Gates said he preferred to hire people who had failed at
> > least once.
>
> Well, that explains a few things.
>
> Not that there is anything wrong with failure, I'm just a little leery of
> anyone who uses it as a criteria for hiring.
>
Failure sucks if/when the shrapnel ends in someone else's lap...like
Vista.
I was at FutureShop (like a BestBuy) store looking for a PC for my
ShopBot (coming soon).
In the 30 minutes I was there, just in the spot where I was standing,
two different people said they'd have a specific model computer, IF it
came with XP instead. The tech replied: "we get a LOT of that."
Vista is a failure. Bill Gates hired the right people for that.



r

On Dec 3, 5:18 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>
> >> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>
> > Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>
> > (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
> > "gigabytes").
> > "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>
> LOL, My first DOS 2.0 computer had 640k ram and two 360 floppies for massive
> storage, no hard drive, 1985.

I can beat that. 128K Mac. 400K floppies, but already in the same
plastic sleeves that we still see today.
Early '85.
I still have it. the 4001st one built ever. Still boots. Somewhere in
my museum, lol, I have a 300 baud modem..
I had a Commodore 64 as well. I played Silent Service for days.....
I don't think there's a game I like these days. Daughter and I play a
little Gran Turismo on a PS 2...but thassal.

I remember a friend of mine trying to send me a titty pic..and we made
fun of the speed by referring to the speed by calling it 4 minutes/
nipple. Quite fun, actually. Black & White of course.

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Robatoy wrote:
>

*snip, trim*

>> In the 30 minutes I was there, just in the spot where I was standing,
>> two different people said they'd have a specific model computer, IF
>> it came with XP instead. The tech replied: "we get a LOT of that."
>> Vista is a failure. Bill Gates hired the right people for that.
>
> No, no, you've got it all wrong -- Vista was the opportunity for
> some of
> Bill's folks to raise their status in his eyes. After the failure
> that is Vista, those folks ought to be up for promotion by at least a
> couple job grades. :-)
>

Vista is the OS/2 2.1 of the 2000's. It's really quite neat, but needs
too much computing horsepower to run well.

The next version of OS/2, Warp 3, actually required less computing
resources than its predecessor.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

Brian Henderson <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:22:11 -0700, Mark & Juanita
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Not that there is anything wrong with failure, I'm just a little
>> leery of
>>anyone who uses it as a criteria for hiring.
>
> Only if you don't want someone who has demonstrated an ability to
> recover from failure and an ability to handle it. If you've never
> made mistakes, you won't know how to fix them.
>

I never fail. I just get "experimental results." ;-)

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Robatoy" wrote >
> Which is why I'll be handling the ShopBot assembly myself. Can't know
> too much about the gear you're running.


Hey Rob ... glad to hear you're finally getting your shopbot. A suggestion
... if you're using the shopbot table, they use carriage bolts as the
leveling feet ... and the small contact surface does a lovely dance on
concrete flooring. I recommend getting some rubber-bottomed machinery feet
(say from McMaster Carr) or making your own ... before you start assembly.
How is that solid surface material in compression ... would it hold up as a
foot (with rubber glued to the bottom)?

Also, once you've set the 'bot in place, take a permanent marker and outline
the footprint so you'll know if the machine has been nudged.


A word of caution ... do NOT move the carriages by pushing them. Always use
the computer to drive them. The ONLY time you should move the carriages by
hand is after disconnecting ALL the stepper motors from the control box. You
WILL destroy the TVS protection devices in the control box (not expensive,
just a pain in the butt to replace).

I'm moving my 'bot from the garage to the basement shop ... so I get to
disassemble and reassemble the entire machine. I'm going to steal some great
ideas from Morris' shop photos (like covering the entire bed area with
plywood rather than just using a 4x8 sheet, and installing permanent X and Y
zero rails).


Regards,

Rick

"Robatoy" wrote

> Again, thanks for that advice. Incidentally, I cannot get over how
> helpful everybody I talk to, is.

I'm just glad to pass along some of my hard-earned lessons ... I've been
saved many a time by the forum and the folks at ShopBot ... that I feel I
_must_ help spread that goodness around!


> The guys at ShopBot asked all the right questions and have a huge
> amount of knowledge about everything to do with their machine....even
> how they live in the solid surface environment.
> That shouldn't be a big surprise, but their willingness to share it
> _is_ a big surprise.

Happy people buy more machines. Happy people sell more machines. More
machines means a job. I think you've observed the core philosophy of ShopBot
... quite a nice change from the MBA driven nonsense we all see too often
these days.


> Stuff I had no way of knowing..i.e. the 4 HP spindle will give me 4HP
> at the optimum speed for solid surface. The 5HP has to be throttled
> down to that speed at which point it no longer puts out 5 HP.
> Makes perfect sense.

Since you're doing one specific application, it makes sense to match the
spindle to the work. If you were going to do other things, the 5 HP might
make sense even if it doesn't make 5 HP at the required speed (but I'll bet
it DOES make 4 HP).

> Also the 3phase vs single phase was cleared up in no uncertain terms.

You can run Variable Speed Drives (at least the smaller ones) on single
phase if you need ... you sometimes have to derate the HP rating (due to the
input wiring and the input bridge passing all the required current through 4
diodes rather than 6); some drives have oversized input sections on purpose
to allow single phase operation. Once you get above 5 HP though ... it's
3-phase all the way.

I think you said your building had 3-phase power, so that shouldn't be an
issue ... perhaps you might enlighten me on the rest of that conversation.
>
> I don't have the money for a Rootes-style sucker just yet, so I'm
> hoping the a pair of Turbo III's will do me for now as solid surface
> is very flat so I won't have to worry about sucking the cup out of
> warped plywood. For small parts, I will also freely steal ideas from
> Morris...BTW... I haven't seen him around lately. I hope all is well
> there. I like his pod ideas. Also, the Turbos can do double duty as
> sanding suckers.
> >

What I've done is to drill bolt-down holes in the bed about every 2 feet on
the X-axis about 1/2" in from the edges. Thus when you lay your material
down, you drill up from underneath and bolt the material to the work table
with 1/4" carriage bolts and wing nuts. Brass toilet bolts (very low profile
and very big head) would be another good way to go, especially if you
miscalculate and have a cut running in the 1" selvage area (BAD idea ...
DAMHIKT).

Morris puts a fixed rail on the zero X and Y edges, giving a firm area to
hold the material (use hold-down clamps as needed), so all you're left with
is to make adjustable clamps to snug the material up to the zero rails, and
then hold the stuff down. If you don't have any selvage, then vacuum is the
way to go. If you keep unused vacuum ports sealed, you get amazing hold down
power with a dust collector (or your TurboIIIs).


> Just one decision left. A 60 x 96 or a 60 x 144. That has to do more
> with material handling outside of the 'bot's physical size than
> anything else. Even though the new shop is nice and big, a 12' sheet,
> being fed into a 12' machine and pieces as big as 8' coming out the
> other end is a problem for me as I don't have an uninterrupted 32'
> stretch... columns, you see.

Well, with a vacuum hoist over the 'bot ... you only need 14' ... you drive
the X-carriage all the way to the left stop, then pick and slide the
material to clear, then lift over the edge of the table rather than off the
end. Having said that, if you don't make anything over 8', you're much
better off with the 96.


> An 8 footer might be big enough as countertops seldom reach 12 feet
> without a seam... and seams I can do on-site without having to drag
> huge hunks of countertop through peoples' houses.
> Also, the possible resale of an 8 footer might be helpful?

I agree.

>
> So much to learn...(I haven't been this excited in years..)
>
> as always, thanks
>



That's the whole idea ... share the excitement. There is so much to learn,
and once you have your hands on the 'bot, you won't be able to contemplate
going back to the old ways. Imagine having your sink cutouts perfect every
time ... any special cutouts are just a CAD drawing away. Best part is you
can practice on inexpensive rigid insulating foam ... take the foam test
cuts to the customer's site to verify BEFORE you put a bit into the
expensive stuff. This also gives the customer a chance (or many, depending
on what they want to pay) to try different layouts ... though at this stage
everything else is already set in place (imagine the ability to cut
different sink cutouts if the customer doesn't really know which sink they
want). Plus, you can take those sink cutouts and turn them into pot trivits
that match the new countertops ... and will take the abuse instead of the
counters. Destroy a trivet? Toss it away and call Rob for another one (nice
advertising touch here as well). Cut your logo into the trivet if you wish.
Many options here.

I'd like to see more excitement generated about new woodworking techniques
here ... certainly the conversations that do go on can be interesting, but
it's the woodworking (and by extension, anything we've discussed on solid
surface countertops translates directly to woodworking) ideas, hints,
suggestions, and advice that I most enjoy.

Regards,


Rick

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*
>
> My first "home" computer was a Heathkit I got used circa '77. It had a
> paper tape reader instead of a monitor, the OS was on a cassette, and
> the board had 4K of RAM. My first "hard drive" was a GE cassette
> player hung on a TI 99/4A that had a whopping 16K of RAM ... and, it
> was a real, honest to goodness, 16 bit machine!
>
> Perspective, perspective ... and wonders never cease. I now have a
> "Terabyte" hard drive smaller than the slide rule case I had in
> college.
>

My first computer was a TI99 4/A. I can still hear "Nice Shooting" in my
head from the speech synthesizer.

My last 2 years of college, I used a calculator with as much speed and
much more memory than my TI99 4/a.

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> *snip*
>>>
>>> My first "home" computer was a Heathkit I got used circa '77. It had
>>> a paper tape reader instead of a monitor, the OS was on a cassette,
>>> and the board had 4K of RAM. My first "hard drive" was a GE cassette
>>> player hung on a TI 99/4A that had a whopping 16K of RAM ... and, it
>>> was a real, honest to goodness, 16 bit machine!
>>>
>>> Perspective, perspective ... and wonders never cease. I now have a
>>> "Terabyte" hard drive smaller than the slide rule case I had in
>>> college.
>>>
>>
>> My first computer was a TI99 4/A. I can still hear "Nice Shooting"
>> in my head from the speech synthesizer.
>>
>> My last 2 years of college, I used a calculator with as much speed
>> and much more memory than my TI99 4/a.
>>
>
> All these senior citizen computer geek stories. I guess I will have
> to chime in.
>
> I was going to buy an Osbourne. But got talked into an Epson CPM
> machine. I couldn't get a good printer for it, but I had a fairly new
> IBM selectric typewriter. So I got a device full of solenoids that
> sat on top of the typewriter. When it printed, the solenoids whould
> actually plunge down and depress the typewriter keys. I was actually
> the envy of many because my printed output was superior to the dot
> matrix and a fair number of daisy wheel printers at the time.
>
> I later upgraded to an IBM 8088 machine. Ii had no graphics
> capability. It came with an IBM, fuzzy, low resolution (crt) screen.
> It was a twin floppy machine with 128 k of ram. And it cost $5,000!
>

Neat! Do you still have it, or at least pictures of it? It's the
perfect kind of thing for Uncreative Labs, www.uncreativelabs.net (I am a
webmaster, so this is a plug.)

Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.

To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm

"Maxwell Lol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Msoft put primary effort into 2 things for Vista: 1) A slick interface
>> to
>> appeal to users. It's cool but the way it is implemented Aero Glass is
>> very resource intensive.
>
>
> In other words, you MUST buy a new computer to use the interface.
> That's MS's business model - forcing people to buy a new computer
> every three years.
>
> If they did the same thing as the Mac, they would not need the
> high-end graphics that Aero requires. That would make live easier on
> users. But that's not what MS really wants to do.
>

Can you explain why Microsoft wants you to buy a new computer when they do
not sell computers?
Yes, I know that many computers come with the MS OS however that is no
longer a requirement and you can get just about any OS you want on a new
computer.

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:00:31 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Vista is a failure. Bill Gates hired the right people for that.

The funny thing is, an XP machine running the new SP3 will be faster
and more reliable than the same machine running Vista.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> writes:

> On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year old
> laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);

Say again?

Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:

> Msoft put primary effort into 2 things for Vista: 1) A slick interface to
> appeal to users. It's cool but the way it is implemented Aero Glass is
> very resource intensive.


In other words, you MUST buy a new computer to use the interface.
That's MS's business model - forcing people to buy a new computer
every three years.

If they did the same thing as the Mac, they would not need the
high-end graphics that Aero requires. That would make live easier on
users. But that's not what MS really wants to do.

On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 20:39:12 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>Rather that go to the big chain stores, go to a local shop and have a PC
>built. XP is alive and well.

It's still the OS that all of our new machines are delivered with at
the Fortune 50 corporation where I work, with IT outsourced to IBM and
CSC.

> The guy that
>builds them for us won't use Vista yet for networked computers.

On the other hand, we have 3 Vista machines running as cash registers
at the bicycle shop, on a 14 station network, with zero problems. We
buy the cheapest machines we can get for registers, and these came
with Vista. A register typically runs our POS app, IE, and an Access
inventory search program, not a stressful setup. The network also
includes Win 2k, lots of XP, a Powerbook, and one 98 machine.

The biggest problem we had with the Vista boxes was getting a startup
script for our DOS POS application to automatically run. After that,
we've been fine since April.

"Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote

> "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote
>>
>> All these senior citizen computer geek stories. I guess I will have
>> to chime in.
>>
>> I was going to buy an Osbourne. But got talked into an Epson CPM
>> machine. I couldn't get a good printer for it, but I had a fairly new
>> IBM selectric typewriter. So I got a device full of solenoids that
>> sat on top of the typewriter. When it printed, the solenoids whould
>> actually plunge down and depress the typewriter keys. I was actually
>> the envy of many because my printed output was superior to the dot
>> matrix and a fair number of daisy wheel printers at the time.
>>
>> I later upgraded to an IBM 8088 machine. Ii had no graphics
>> capability. It came with an IBM, fuzzy, low resolution (crt) screen.
>> It was a twin floppy machine with 128 k of ram. And it cost $5,000!
>>
>
> Neat! Do you still have it, or at least pictures of it? It's the
> perfect kind of thing for Uncreative Labs, www.uncreativelabs.net (I am a
> webmaster, so this is a plug.)
>

I assume that you are talking about the clunky typewriter interface. No, I
don't have it. I don't remember what happened to it.

Soon after I got it though, somebody came out with a little box that you
wired into the selectric typwriter itself. It was smaller than a pack of
cigarettes and weight a few ounces. A far more elegant solution than my big
plunger box.

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:00:31 -0800 (PST), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:


>Failure sucks if/when the shrapnel ends in someone else's lap...like
>Vista.
>I was at FutureShop (like a BestBuy) store looking for a PC for my
>ShopBot (coming soon).
>In the 30 minutes I was there, just in the spot where I was standing,
>two different people said they'd have a specific model computer, IF it
>came with XP instead. The tech replied: "we get a LOT of that."
>Vista is a failure. Bill Gates hired the right people for that.
>
Remember "ME"?
XP wasn't ready and they needed a product for the millennium craze so they
released ME..
Further proof that you can sell shit in a bag if you invest enough in
marketing..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:

>It's a funny thing but I've never had a machine that was provably

Actually, I've personally post-mortem'ed several machines that
have been contaminated from online source. Most of them have been
windows, one was a linux system which had had the trinoo code loaded
via a bind vulnerability; most of the windows systems were infected
by users browsing to malware sites (usually via some spam), although
there were some IIS vulnerabilities in win2k.

>contaminated from an online source. Usually when there's malware on
>the machine somebody took a file home on diskette to work on it, took
>it back to work, and booted the machine with the diskette in the
>drive.

Diskette? Machines haven't shipped with diskettes for several years now.

However, machines will boot from CD/DVD, USB memory device and any USB
mass storage peripheral.

>
>The best thing you can do for security is go into setup and make sure
>that the machine is set to _not_ boot from diskette.

Actually, that's a red herring. Very few (less than 1%) of systems
are exploited via sneakernet.

scott

You worked on the big ones...

A 360/20 had 8K and card O/S.

A 360/30 had 32K and something called DASD(removeable)
and ran the "original" DOS.

You could also warm your lunch on top of the controllers.

Doug Winterburn wrote:

> The 360-40 mainframe I worked on in 1969 had a whopping 256KB. It could
> run three partitions of apps under OS/360-MFT. The older 7094 had 32K
> of 36-bit oil-cooled magnetic core memory. Took a 55 gallon drum of oil
> dumped into the memory and about 2-3 days with the heaters running to
> get it up to temp so we could boot it.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:c32e3d9a-8b67-49b5-9846-4c74d809a9b7@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>>> --
>>
>> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP Home and
>> Pro?
>
> When I bought our last few computers from Dell they explained that the Pro
> version offered more security over the Home version. They especially
> pushed it for wireless lap tops.
>
>
XP Pro also supports multiple monitors, a must for me.

>> > I was at FutureShop (like a BestBuy) store looking for a PC for my
>> > ShopBot (coming soon).
>> > In the 30 minutes I was there, just in the spot where I was standing,
>> > two different people said they'd have a specific model computer, IF it
>> > came with XP instead. The tech replied: "we get a LOT of that."


Rather that go to the big chain stores, go to a local shop and have a PC
built. XP is alive and well. In a couple of months when we get new
computers at work, I'm specifying XP. Actually. I'm not. The guy that
builds them for us won't use Vista yet for networked computers.

"Maxwell Lol" wrote in message
> "Swingman" writes:
>
> > On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year
old
> > laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);
>
> Say again?

On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year old
laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);

Anything else?


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/30/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>>
>>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>>
>> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>>
>> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
>> "gigabytes").
>> "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>>
>>
> The 360-40 mainframe I worked on in 1969 had a whopping 256KB. It could
> run three partitions of apps under OS/360-MFT. The older 7094 had 32K of
> 36-bit oil-cooled magnetic core memory. Took a 55 gallon drum of oil
> dumped into the memory and about 2-3 days with the heaters running to get
> it up to temp so we could boot it.

They don't build'em like they usta. Thank goodness. Sounds slightly
slower than booting Win95. ;~)

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>
>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>
> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>
> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
> "gigabytes").
> "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"


LOL, My first DOS 2.0 computer had 640k ram and two 360 floppies for massive
storage, no hard drive, 1985.

J. Clarke wrote:
> Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>>>
>>>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>>> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>>>
>>> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
>>> "gigabytes"). "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>>>
>>>
>> The 360-40 mainframe I worked on in 1969 had a whopping 256KB. It
>> could run three partitions of apps under OS/360-MFT. The older 7094
>> had 32K of 36-bit oil-cooled magnetic core memory. Took a 55 gallon
>> drum of oil dumped into the memory and about 2-3 days with the
>> heaters running to get it up to temp so we could boot it.
>
> And one of those machines could support a remarkable number of
> simultaneous users.
>
> You might want to check out http://www.jaymoseley.com/hercules/.
>
Yabbut, there's a huge difference between a black/green text terminal or
selectric typewriter terminal and today's GUIs as far as cycles and
memory usage. The typical modern PC sucks up close to a half gig in 32
bit address (4 gig max) space for video and drivers for a single user.

"Robatoy" wrote

> My G3-450 NOT ONE crash in 7 years. Not one time. Next April it will
> have been on-line 7 years without a virus, or crash...on all the time..
> 24/7.
> My G4 Titanium laptop...same story, although it did lose a hard drive
> in year 4. It wouldn't boot, but recovered all data after I booted
> from a DVD.... but no crashes.
> And I do look at my computers as an appliance. I hadn't thought about
> it that way...but I do.
> Like a fridge. I don't want to know anything about freon and
> evaporators...I want my beer cold. Period. *S*

Know what you mean, Rob ... different strokes.

I used both Windows machines and Mac's in the studio, where both performance
and reliability were ABSOLUTELY crucial (crashing in the middle of a session
with world famous, high dollar players flown in at great expense is not
conducive to recording careers), to run apps like ProTools and Vegas
Video/Audio.

Both apps crashed equally, but IMO the latter had a _much_ better UI ...
AAMOF, I still loath ProTools, both as software UI, and for the way it
SUCKS, soundwise ... like hammered dog shit.

IME, the _reliability_ of a windows machine in that environment is in direct
proportion to the utilization of the processor ... thus I always ran dual
processor machines for Windows in the studio, matched with multithreaded
software that would take advantage of the environment.

IOW, the software, along with well written hardware drivers, are the keys to
success with any operating system, makes no difference the flavor. Vista is
no exception.

AAMOF, the old adage which you don't hear much anymore, was to buy the
software that you needed to do the job, then use the OS/computer that would
run it.

Still a good practice ... instead of the pervading, numb nut, fanboy
bullshit, in which everyone feels compelled to add their inflated two cents
worth.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/30/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> *snip*
>>
>> My first "home" computer was a Heathkit I got used circa '77. It had a
>> paper tape reader instead of a monitor, the OS was on a cassette, and
>> the board had 4K of RAM. My first "hard drive" was a GE cassette
>> player hung on a TI 99/4A that had a whopping 16K of RAM ... and, it
>> was a real, honest to goodness, 16 bit machine!
>>
>> Perspective, perspective ... and wonders never cease. I now have a
>> "Terabyte" hard drive smaller than the slide rule case I had in
>> college.
>>
>
> My first computer was a TI99 4/A. I can still hear "Nice Shooting" in my
> head from the speech synthesizer.
>
> My last 2 years of college, I used a calculator with as much speed and
> much more memory than my TI99 4/a.
>

All these senior citizen computer geek stories. I guess I will have to
chime in.

I was going to buy an Osbourne. But got talked into an Epson CPM machine. I
couldn't get a good printer for it, but I had a fairly new IBM selectric
typewriter. So I got a device full of solenoids that sat on top of the
typewriter. When it printed, the solenoids whould actually plunge down and
depress the typewriter keys. I was actually the envy of many because my
printed output was superior to the dot matrix and a fair number of daisy
wheel printers at the time.

I later upgraded to an IBM 8088 machine. Ii had no graphics capability. It
came with an IBM, fuzzy, low resolution (crt) screen. It was a twin floppy
machine with 128 k of ram. And it cost $5,000!

"J. Clarke" wrote

> The big problem with Vista is that Microsoft changed the security
> defaults and apps that store all their data in the program directory
> instead of the user's home directory or wrote to reserved areas of the
> registry started crashing and burning.

IME thus far, the "big problem with Vista" is the empty space between the
ears of users who couldn't spell "computer" when Windows passed DOS as the
OS de jour, they being demonstrably less "computer literate", on average,
than the users of the 70's,- early 90's, when an in-depth knowledge was
basically imperative, 'out of the box'.

Actually, I've have had fewer problems with Vista than I had with the first
iterations of Win 1 - 3, 95, NT, 98, 2K, and XP.

On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year old
laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo); has been equally
as reliable once I configured out the CYA defaults/drivers, it was shipped
with; and all the software I've thrown at it that was worth transferring
over works just fine.

Basically, it runs a business as handily and _much_ more securely in an
online world (and security ALWAYS has a price that must be paid for in the
currency of convenience ... just look in your pocket for all those keys you
still carry around) ... all of which suits/works for me.

My advice to those who can't ride any OS is to try a gentler horse ... Mac
OS X is an excellent choice for the average user with a need for the
'computer as appliance', albeit much more costly upfront, and, with the
advent of Intel processors, you can even run many of your windows apps on
the same machine.

It's what my 85 year old parents will be using shortly ... for me, Vista is
doing just what I need it to do..

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/30/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"mapdude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> It is my understanding from the guys in out IT department that Microsoft
> has conceded problems with Vista and is offering free downgrades to XP to
> anyone who has purchased a new machine with Vista on it if you request it.
>

It is a downgrade if it fixes the problem?

"Lee Michaels" wrote

> I later upgraded to an IBM 8088 machine. Ii had no graphics capability.
It
> came with an IBM, fuzzy, low resolution (crt) screen. It was a twin floppy
> machine with 128 k of ram. And it cost $5,000!

First word processor I bought for our company ... IBM Display Writer,
$18,000!

Yeah, that's right ... a word processor.

... and that was not counting upgrades, monthly "maintenance" fees, AND a
yearly "support" contract.

IBM was the only game in town then, and the above tells the tale ... and
folks wonder why I was REALLY glad to see Microsoft come along.

Most of the dufuss dissing of MSFT you see today never experienced IBM being
the only game in town.

:)


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/30/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Dave In Houston" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>>
>>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>>
>> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>>
>> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
>> "gigabytes").
>> "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>
> Our first 686 had a whopping 64 MB RAM and a 30 MB HD !

I was sooo happy with the 128K RAM expansion card for my Apple //e

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Dave In Houston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>>
>>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>>
>> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>>
>> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
>> "gigabytes").
>> "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>
> Our first 686 had a whopping 64 MB RAM and a 30 MB HD !


Sure that was not a 286 or a 386? Before the 286 was the 8086 and the
8088's IIRC. I don't recall 686's.

"Doug Winterburn" wrote

> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?

Gigabytes ... mea culpa.

(still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of "gigabytes").
"Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/30/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:3b590102-e18f-44a8-923c-9aaf0cf4bacd@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>
> I can beat that. 128K Mac. 400K floppies, but already in the same
> plastic sleeves that we still see today.
> Early '85.

IIRC it had a screen about 10" across diagonally that built into the
computer case. I almost bought one of those and or the Compac that folded
up into a suit case sized shape with a screen that was about 6" across
diagonally, but I settled for 6300 AT&T with the massive 13" green screen.
:~)



> I still have it. the 4001st one built ever. Still boots. Somewhere in
> my museum, lol, I have a 300 baud modem..
> I had a Commodore 64 as well. I played Silent Service for days.....
> I don't think there's a game I like these days. Daughter and I play a
> little Gran Turismo on a PS 2...but thassal.

Yeah, I don't still have my AT&T. LOL

>
> I remember a friend of mine trying to send me a titty pic..and we made
> fun of the speed by referring to the speed by calling it 4 minutes/
> nipple. Quite fun, actually. Black & White of course.

I recall using a computer at work that used a floppy that looked like the
old 5.25" ones however it was about 10" across.

"Robatoy" wrote
>
> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP Home and
> Pro?
> I have to actually buy a MS product for my business, but it won't get
> much of a workout.
>

If you need to know the ins and outs of microsoft operating systems, I
suggest you subscribe to

http://windowssecrets.com/

They have archives you can search. There is a free version and a paid
version. Needlkess to say, the paid version is much more extensive.

On Dec 3, 7:04 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lee Michaels wrote:
> > "mapdude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> It is my understanding from the guys in out IT department that
> >> Microsoft has conceded problems with Vista and is offering free
> >> downgrades to XP to anyone who has purchased a new machine with
> >> Vista on it if you request it.
>
> > It is a downgrade if it fixes the problem?
>
> Regardless, that "offer" by Microsoft is not an acknowledgment of
> problems. Microsoft has had the backreve policy in place as long as I
> can remember--most Microsoft operating system licenses are valid for
> several generations of OS, so if you have an XP license it's also good
> for Windows 2000 and IIRC NT as well (but check your lincense
> agreement). Most but not all Vista licenses are and always have been
> good for XP and 2K. You need the media from a retail boxed or System
> Builder copy of XP to backrev though.
>
> --

In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP Home and
Pro?
I have to actually buy a MS product for my business, but it won't get
much of a workout.

I tried a few other forums on usenet, but, whoa, is it ever nice and
quiet in here....<G>

r

On Dec 3, 7:35 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
> > On Dec 3, 10:18 am, "Lee Michaels"
> > <leemichaels*[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>news:[email protected]...
>
> >>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>news:c32e3d9a-8b67-49b5-9846-4c74d809a9b7@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> >>>>> --
>
> >>>> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP
> >>>> Home
> >>>> and Pro?
>
> >>> When I bought our last few computers from Dell they explained that
> >>> the Pro version offered more security over the Home version. They
> >>> especially pushed it for wireless lap tops.
>
> >> XP Pro also supports multiple monitors, a must for me.
>
> > Yup, two monitors. I don't care much about security as the Windows
> > side of things will never go on-line. All it will do is mundane
> > tasks,
> > like Cutsheet and ShopBot software (but not to run the controller,)
> > although I will need an OS for that too.
>
> > .eCabinets mostly.
>
> >http://www.ecabinetsystems.com/
>
> It's a funny thing but I've never had a machine that was provably
> contaminated from an online source. Usually when there's malware on
> the machine somebody took a file home on diskette to work on it, took
> it back to work, and booted the machine with the diskette in the
> drive.
>
> The best thing you can do for security is go into setup and make sure
> that the machine is set to _not_ boot from diskette.
>

Huh?

Do you have a problem with people sneaking up to your computer and
booting it off of a diskette?

--

FF

On Dec 1, 8:14 am, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote
>
> > I was at FutureShop (like a BestBuy) store looking for a PC for my
> > ShopBot (coming soon).
> > In the 30 minutes I was there, just in the spot where I was standing,
> > two different people said they'd have a specific model computer, IF it
> > came with XP instead. The tech replied: "we get a LOT of that."
>
> I work with a lot of financial software and multiple displays. At least
> half of what I have seen will not even run on vista. Part of the problem
> is that with each succeeding generation of microsoft OS, the support for
> multiple graphic displays decreases. The anemic memory (in) capacity helps
> with this flaw as well.

Were I more paranoid I would suggest that MS OSes deliberately hog
as much of the PC resources as possible in order to limit the utility
of third-party software.

--

FF

On Dec 1, 10:43 am, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" wrote
>
> > The big problem with Vista is that Microsoft changed the security
> > defaults and apps that store all their data in the program directory
> > instead of the user's home directory or wrote to reserved areas of the
> > registry started crashing and burning.
>
> IME thus far, the "big problem with Vista" is the empty space between the
> ears of users who couldn't spell "computer" when Windows passed DOS as the
> OS de jour, they being demonstrably less "computer literate", on average,
> than the users of the 70's,- early 90's, when an in-depth knowledge was
> basically imperative, 'out of the box'.
>
> Actually, I've have had fewer problems with Vista than I had with the first
> iterations of Win 1 - 3, 95, NT, 98, 2K, and XP.
>
> On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year old
> laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo); has been equally
> as reliable once I configured out the CYA defaults/drivers, it was shipped
> with; and all the software I've thrown at it that was worth transferring
> over works just fine.
>
> Basically, it runs a business as handily and _much_ more securely in an
> online world (and security ALWAYS has a price that must be paid for in the
> currency of convenience ... just look in your pocket for all those keys you
> still carry around) ... all of which suits/works for me.
>
> My advice to those who can't ride any OS is to try a gentler horse ... Mac
> OS X is an excellent choice for the average user with a need for the
> 'computer as appliance', albeit much more costly upfront, and, with the
> advent of Intel processors, you can even run many of your windows apps on
> the same machine.

I am hearing other reports of people being quite happy with Vista,
with adequate RAM and all that. Usually systems which came with
printers and such.
I happy that it is working for you.
Yet no business I am aware of, large or small, is happy. The IT
department at the hospital where Angela's clinic is, has simply
refused to upgrade. They are pretty much state-of-the-art in there
with all that MRI imaging hardware and software, and these people
(their words) "can't believe they'd release that POS."
Soooo...(putting on my pony-tailed image..lol) I can get my head
around and dig where you're coming from, Swingman, BUT..I have to take
exception to one thing you said. Comparing apples to apples (no pun
intended) Macs are NOT much more expensive than a PC of equal build
quality. At least not around these parts. Yes, I can buy a fully
loaded PC tower with mega-gobs of blue lights for next to nothing, but
the least thing they can do is to remove the decals from the pop-cans
before they stamp them into chassis. There is some real garbage out
there..... and you can't say that about Apples.
My G3-450 NOT ONE crash in 7 years. Not one time. Next April it will
have been on-line 7 years without a virus, or crash...on all the time..
24/7.
My G4 Titanium laptop...same story, although it did lose a hard drive
in year 4. It wouldn't boot, but recovered all data after I booted
from a DVD.... but no crashes.
And I do look at my computers as an appliance. I hadn't thought about
it that way...but I do.
Like a fridge. I don't want to know anything about freon and
evaporators...I want my beer cold. Period. *S*

> B A R R Y wrote:
>
> > charlieb wrote:
>
> >> How you deal with "failure" can be just as valuable a lesson
> >> as how to deal with "success".
>
> > I believe Bill Gates said he preferred to hire people who had failed at
> > least once.
>
Heeeeeeyyyyy waitasec.... tongue-in-cheek, right?

On Dec 2, 4:12 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 02 Dec 2007 20:39:12 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >Rather that go to the big chain stores, go to a local shop and have a PC
> >built. XP is alive and well.
>
> It's still the OS that all of our new machines are delivered with at
> the Fortune 50 corporation where I work, with IT outsourced to IBM and
> CSC.
>
> > The guy that
> >builds them for us won't use Vista yet for networked computers.
>
> On the other hand, we have 3 Vista machines running as cash registers
> at the bicycle shop, on a 14 station network, with zero problems. We
> buy the cheapest machines we can get for registers, and these came
> with Vista. A register typically runs our POS app, IE, and an Access
> inventory search program, not a stressful setup. The network also
> includes Win 2k, lots of XP, a Powerbook, and one 98 machine.
>
> The biggest problem we had with the Vista boxes was getting a startup
> script for our DOS POS application to automatically run. After that,
> we've been fine since April.

I'm trusting POS stands for Point Of Sale in this case? <G>

r

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote
>
>> I was at FutureShop (like a BestBuy) store looking for a PC for my
>> ShopBot (coming soon).
>> In the 30 minutes I was there, just in the spot where I was
>> standing,
>> two different people said they'd have a specific model computer, IF
>> it came with XP instead. The tech replied: "we get a LOT of that."
>
> I work with a lot of financial software and multiple displays. At
> least half of what I have seen will not even run on vista. Part of
> the problem is that with each succeeding generation of microsoft OS,
> the support for multiple graphic displays decreases. The anemic
> memory (in) capacity helps with this flaw as well.

Support for multiple displays decreases?!?!?!?!?!?

Vista supports up to 10 displays natively, same as XP and 2K. There's
a myth that NT supported 16 natively--it didn't, there were companies
that had hardware that made 16 appear to the system as 1.

If you're not getting multiple display support bitch at your video
board manufacturer--the quality of the drivers across the board has
been going down steadily for years.

I'm not sure what you mean by "the anemic memory (in) capacity".
Vista 32 bit supports the same 4GB of RAM as XP. It also supports PAE
on compatible processors, but Microsoft is very quiet about what its
limits are with PAE enabled--it still has the 4GB per process limit
though. If you need more than 4GB you really should be using 64-bit
Vista, which in most versions supports 128GB.

The big problem with Vista is that Microsoft changed the security
defaults and apps that store all their data in the program directory
instead of the user's home directory or wrote to reserved areas of the
registry started crashing and burning.

In any case, if you've got a retail copy of XP you can downgrade
Vista--you'll have to call Microsoft and they'll activate it for you
even if that copy of XP is already activated on another machine. You
have to give them your Vista key though, and if you decide to go back
to Vista on that machine later you'll have to call them again.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

mac davis wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:22:11 -0700, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> B A R R Y wrote:
>>
>>> charlieb wrote:
>>>> How you deal with "failure" can be just as valuable a lesson
>>>> as how to deal with "success".
>>> I believe Bill Gates said he preferred to hire people who had failed at
>>> least once.
>> Well, that explains a few things.
>>
>> Not that there is anything wrong with failure, I'm just a little leery of
>> anyone who uses it as a criteria for hiring.
>
> Might be why we reboot so often.. good thing they don't make power tools!
>
>
> mac
>
> Please remove splinters before emailing
[user@localhost ~]$ uptime
19:24:11 up 111 days, 2:34, 3 users, load average: 0.54, 0.21, 0.13
[user@localhost ~]$

PCLinuxOS 2007

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "mapdude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> It is my understanding from the guys in out IT department that
>> Microsoft has conceded problems with Vista and is offering free
>> downgrades to XP to anyone who has purchased a new machine with
>> Vista on it if you request it.
>>
>
> It is a downgrade if it fixes the problem?

Regardless, that "offer" by Microsoft is not an acknowledgment of
problems. Microsoft has had the backreve policy in place as long as I
can remember--most Microsoft operating system licenses are valid for
several generations of OS, so if you have an XP license it's also good
for Windows 2000 and IIRC NT as well (but check your lincense
agreement). Most but not all Vista licenses are and always have been
good for XP and 2K. You need the media from a retail boxed or System
Builder copy of XP to backrev though.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Leon wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:c32e3d9a-8b67-49b5-9846-4c74d809a9b7@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>>> --
>> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP Home and
>> Pro?
>
> When I bought our last few computers from Dell they explained that the Pro
> version offered more security over the Home version. They especially pushed
> it for wireless lap tops.

I don't know enough to try to quote from memory, but here's a link that
should answer any question...

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/windowsxp/default.mspx


--

Robatoy wrote:
> On Dec 3, 7:04 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Lee Michaels wrote:
>>> "mapdude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> It is my understanding from the guys in out IT department that
>>>> Microsoft has conceded problems with Vista and is offering free
>>>> downgrades to XP to anyone who has purchased a new machine with
>>>> Vista on it if you request it.
>>
>>> It is a downgrade if it fixes the problem?
>>
>> Regardless, that "offer" by Microsoft is not an acknowledgment of
>> problems. Microsoft has had the backreve policy in place as long
>> as
>> I can remember--most Microsoft operating system licenses are valid
>> for several generations of OS, so if you have an XP license it's
>> also good for Windows 2000 and IIRC NT as well (but check your
>> lincense agreement). Most but not all Vista licenses are and
>> always
>> have been good for XP and 2K. You need the media from a retail
>> boxed or System Builder copy of XP to backrev though.
>>
>> --
>
> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP Home
> and
> Pro?
> I have to actually buy a MS product for my business, but it won't
> get
> much of a workout.
>
> I tried a few other forums on usenet, but, whoa, is it ever nice and
> quiet in here....<G>

There are two significant differences. Home doesn't support dual
processors (it does support dual core though, but IIRC this didn't
happen until one of the service packs) and can't join a domain (at
least not without doing some hacking on it), which is only an issue if
you are running one of the Windows Server products. There are some
differences in default settings but I haven't played with Home enough
to remember what they are.

And I was slightly in error on the backrev policy--it only applies to
Open License and Software Assurance customers (mostly corporate
users), not to retail boxed or OEM product, except that XP and Vista
OEM licenses can be backreved (it's weird that they allow it for OEM
but not for retail-box), at least as of last January, which is the
most recent policy statement I can find.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote
>>
>> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP Home
>> and Pro?
>> I have to actually buy a MS product for my business, but it won't
>> get
>> much of a workout.
>>
>
> If you need to know the ins and outs of microsoft operating systems,
> I
> suggest you subscribe to
>
> http://windowssecrets.com/
>
> They have archives you can search. There is a free version and a
> paid
> version. Needlkess to say, the paid version is much more extensive.

If that's your source for the information that XP Home doesn't support
multiple monitors then I'd give it a wide berth.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:c32e3d9a-8b67-49b5-9846-4c74d809a9b7@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>>>> --
>>>
>>> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP Home
>>> and Pro?
>>
>> When I bought our last few computers from Dell they explained that
>> the Pro version offered more security over the Home version. They
>> especially pushed it for wireless lap tops.
>>
>>
> XP Pro also supports multiple monitors, a must for me.

So does Home. All versions of XP and Vista (except maybe the "Basic"
versions that are very hard to come by) support up to 10 monitors.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Maxwell Lol wrote:
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Msoft put primary effort into 2 things for Vista: 1) A slick
>> interface to appeal to users. It's cool but the way it is
>> implemented Aero Glass is very resource intensive.
>
>
> In other words, you MUST buy a new computer to use the interface.
> That's MS's business model - forcing people to buy a new computer
> every three years.

My 5 year old machine runs Vista just fine. Why would Microsoft have
any interest in forcing people to buy new computers? They don't sell
computers.

> If they did the same thing as the Mac, they would not need the
> high-end graphics that Aero requires. That would make live easier on
> users. But that's not what MS really wants to do.

So enlighten us as to what they want to do besides sell a lot of
software and mice and keyboards and Xboxen and make a lot of money?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Robatoy wrote:
> On Dec 3, 10:18 am, "Lee Michaels"
> <leemichaels*[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:c32e3d9a-8b67-49b5-9846-4c74d809a9b7@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>>>>> --
>>
>>>> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP
>>>> Home
>>>> and Pro?
>>
>>> When I bought our last few computers from Dell they explained that
>>> the Pro version offered more security over the Home version. They
>>> especially pushed it for wireless lap tops.
>>
>> XP Pro also supports multiple monitors, a must for me.
>
> Yup, two monitors. I don't care much about security as the Windows
> side of things will never go on-line. All it will do is mundane
> tasks,
> like Cutsheet and ShopBot software (but not to run the controller,)
> although I will need an OS for that too.
>
> .eCabinets mostly.
>
> http://www.ecabinetsystems.com/

It's a funny thing but I've never had a machine that was provably
contaminated from an online source. Usually when there's malware on
the machine somebody took a file home on diskette to work on it, took
it back to work, and booted the machine with the diskette in the
drive.

The best thing you can do for security is go into setup and make sure
that the machine is set to _not_ boot from diskette.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Doug Winterburn wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>>
>>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>>
>> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>>
>> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
>> "gigabytes"). "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>>
>>
> The 360-40 mainframe I worked on in 1969 had a whopping 256KB. It
> could run three partitions of apps under OS/360-MFT. The older 7094
> had 32K of 36-bit oil-cooled magnetic core memory. Took a 55 gallon
> drum of oil dumped into the memory and about 2-3 days with the
> heaters running to get it up to temp so we could boot it.

And one of those machines could support a remarkable number of
simultaneous users.

You might want to check out http://www.jaymoseley.com/hercules/.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Dave In Houston wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Dave In Houston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>>>>
>>>> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>>>>
>>>> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
>>>> "gigabytes").
>>>> "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>>>
>>> Our first 686 had a whopping 64 MB RAM and a 30 MB HD !
>>
>>
>> Sure that was not a 286 or a 386? Before the 286 was the 8086 and
>> the 8088's IIRC. I don't recall 686's.
>
> DOH! What was I thinking?
> D-I-H

First machine I ever owned ran CP/M and had 48K. And I learned to
repair the things the hard way--it had a resistor pack reversed and
when I upgades the RAM to 64K it died horribly. Took me the better
part of a year of poking at it to find that.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Swingman wrote:
> "Lee Michaels" wrote
>
>> I later upgraded to an IBM 8088 machine. Ii had no graphics capability.
> It
>> came with an IBM, fuzzy, low resolution (crt) screen. It was a twin floppy
>> machine with 128 k of ram. And it cost $5,000!
>
> First word processor I bought for our company ... IBM Display Writer,
> $18,000!
>
> Yeah, that's right ... a word processor.
...

The IBM System-6's we used were almost $4k/mo, each, plus maintenance.
There was no such thing as "buying", iirc. That was about twice the
going rate because they had to be DOE-Q rated for emissions to be used
in the classified area for classified work.

Tried various other alternatives; most of which I no longer even recall.
Wang, Burroughs, Data General, Tektronix, HP, ..., all were around in
various incarnations for greater/lesser time periods. None ever
replaced the IBM systems for solid performance and capability.

As opposed to IBM mainframe war stories I've been told and experienced
peripherally only (fortunately I was always in CDC/Cray environment
until the VAX revolution by which time I had left the "big compute"
employer to be on the consulting side using clients' services or the
commercial time services), other than they were expensive, I was always
quite pleased w/ the IBM wordprocessors of the day...

--

In article <[email protected]>,
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>
> Are you running the Aero Glass with full effects on your 5 year-old
>machine?
>
> Msoft doesn't necessarily have any interest in forcing people to buy new
>computers, their programming however does require more than currently
>deployed machines to fully utilize all new features. Msoft has pretty much
>always been that way.
>


The large majority of MS OS sales is those included with a new
system. They also have significant revenues from application
software that is bundled with new systems. Prior to an antitrust
settlement some eyars ago, they in fact collected revenue from PC
manufacturers even on systems sold WITHOUT any MS products.

--
There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
plausible, and wrong." (H L Mencken)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>> *snip*
>>>
>>> My first "home" computer was a Heathkit I got used circa '77. It
>>> had a paper tape reader instead of a monitor, the OS was on a
>>> cassette, and the board had 4K of RAM. My first "hard drive" was a
>>> GE cassette player hung on a TI 99/4A that had a whopping 16K of
>>> RAM ... and, it was a real, honest to goodness, 16 bit machine!
>>>
>>> Perspective, perspective ... and wonders never cease. I now have a
>>> "Terabyte" hard drive smaller than the slide rule case I had in
>>> college.
>>>
>>
>> My first computer was a TI99 4/A. I can still hear "Nice Shooting"
>> in my head from the speech synthesizer.
>>
>> My last 2 years of college, I used a calculator with as much speed
>> and much more memory than my TI99 4/a.
>>
>
> All these senior citizen computer geek stories. I guess I will have
> to chime in.
>
> I was going to buy an Osbourne. But got talked into an Epson CPM
> machine. I couldn't get a good printer for it, but I had a fairly
> new IBM selectric typewriter. So I got a device full of solenoids
> that sat on top of the typewriter. When it printed, the solenoids
> whould actually plunge down and depress the typewriter keys. I was
> actually the envy of many because my printed output was superior to
> the dot matrix and a fair number of daisy wheel printers at the
> time.
>
> I later upgraded to an IBM 8088 machine. Ii had no graphics
> capability. It came with an IBM, fuzzy, low resolution (crt)
> screen.
> It was a twin floppy machine with 128 k of ram. And it cost $5,000!

IBM has two display adapters for the original PC, they had the Black
and White Adapter (that's how it was labelled although it was commonly
referred to as the Monochrome Display Adapter or MDA) and the Color
Graphics Adapter or CGA. The CGA had graphics capability and wasn't
terribly sharp. The MDA was text only and as sharp as any CRT
terminal of the same era. So I'm a bit puzzled as to its having a
fuzzy display with no graphics capability.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Larry W wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Are you running the Aero Glass with full effects on your 5
>> year-old
>> machine?
>>
>> Msoft doesn't necessarily have any interest in forcing people to
>> buy new computers, their programming however does require more than
>> currently deployed machines to fully utilize all new features.
>> Msoft has pretty much always been that way.
>>
>
>
> The large majority of MS OS sales is those included with a new
> system. They also have significant revenues from application
> software that is bundled with new systems. Prior to an antitrust
> settlement some eyars ago, they in fact collected revenue from PC
> manufacturers even on systems sold WITHOUT any MS products.

In answer to the question that was posed to me, that hasn't shown up
here, yes, I'm running Aero Glass with full effects.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
> Maxwell Lol wrote:
>> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> Msoft put primary effort into 2 things for Vista: 1) A slick
>>> interface to appeal to users. It's cool but the way it is
>>> implemented Aero Glass is very resource intensive.
>>
>> In other words, you MUST buy a new computer to use the interface.
>> That's MS's business model - forcing people to buy a new computer
>> every three years.
>
> My 5 year old machine runs Vista just fine. Why would Microsoft have
> any interest in forcing people to buy new computers? They don't sell
> computers.
...

No, but the sell a new OS license w/ virtually every new PC -- hence
there's a _very_ strong motive to sell lots of new 'puters...

--

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:
> Larry W wrote:
>> The large majority of MS OS sales is those included with a new
>> system. They also have significant revenues from application
>> software that is bundled with new systems. Prior to an antitrust
>> settlement some eyars ago, they in fact collected revenue from PC
>> manufacturers even on systems sold WITHOUT any MS products.
>
>
> Not quite as nefarious as you might think......They simply
> sold/negotiated site licenses where-as the PC company got a cheaper
> per unit rate for a "every unit sold" contract. Largely a easier and
> simpler way to insure accurate accounting of actual sales.....some
> PC
> companies were known to fudge a bit on actual software installs.
> Since Microsoft was in business to sell software any buyer could as
> well negotiate a per installed unit price. Do you think IBM paid a
> DOS fee for every computer sold?

The OS was not bundled with the PC. You bought the PC and you bought
the OS as a separate line item.

> Since the market place for IBM PC's
> and compatibles was overwhelmingly Microsoft based the demand for
> other OS's was next to nil anyway......Nonetheless the market place
> was freely able to choose anyone's OS......Rod

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

dpb wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Maxwell Lol wrote:
>>> Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>> Msoft put primary effort into 2 things for Vista: 1) A slick
>>>> interface to appeal to users. It's cool but the way it is
>>>> implemented Aero Glass is very resource intensive.
>>>
>>> In other words, you MUST buy a new computer to use the interface.
>>> That's MS's business model - forcing people to buy a new computer
>>> every three years.
>>
>> My 5 year old machine runs Vista just fine. Why would Microsoft
>> have
>> any interest in forcing people to buy new computers? They don't
>> sell
>> computers.
> ...
>
> No, but the sell a new OS license w/ virtually every new PC -- hence
> there's a _very_ strong motive to sell lots of new 'puters...

So how does making the OS require a new computer result in new
computer sales when the OS is included with the new computer?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> It's a funny thing but I've never had a machine that was provably
>
> Actually, I've personally post-mortem'ed several machines that
> have been contaminated from online source. Most of them have been
> windows, one was a linux system which had had the trinoo code loaded
> via a bind vulnerability; most of the windows systems were
> infected
> by users browsing to malware sites (usually via some spam), although
> there were some IIS vulnerabilities in win2k.
>
>> contaminated from an online source. Usually when there's malware
>> on
>> the machine somebody took a file home on diskette to work on it,
>> took
>> it back to work, and booted the machine with the diskette in the
>> drive.
>
> Diskette? Machines haven't shipped with diskettes for several years
> now.
>
> However, machines will boot from CD/DVD, USB memory device and any
> USB
> mass storage peripheral.

However contaminating a CD takes a bit more effort than contaminating
a diskette, and how often are machines configured by default to boot
from arbitrary USB devices?
>
>>
>> The best thing you can do for security is go into setup and make
>> sure
>> that the machine is set to _not_ boot from diskette.
>
> Actually, that's a red herring. Very few (less than 1%) of systems
> are exploited via sneakernet.

Uh huh. They're all exploited by those USB hard drives that kids
carry around in their pockets.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Swingman wrote:
> "Maxwell Lol" wrote in message
>> "Swingman" writes:
>>
>>> On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year
> old
>>> laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);
>> Say again?
>
> On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year old
> laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);
>
> Anything else?
>
>
Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?

"Robatoy" wrote
>
> I'm trusting POS stands for Point Of Sale in this case? <G>
>
Is that what POS stands for???

making a note... ;)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:c32e3d9a-8b67-49b5-9846-4c74d809a9b7@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>> --
>
> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP Home and
> Pro?

When I bought our last few computers from Dell they explained that the Pro
version offered more security over the Home version. They especially pushed
it for wireless lap tops.

J. Clarke wrote:
> Robatoy wrote:
>> On Dec 3, 10:18 am, "Lee Michaels"
>> <leemichaels*[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:c32e3d9a-8b67-49b5-9846-4c74d809a9b7@x69g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>> --
>>>>> In a few words or less, what is the big difference between XP
>>>>> Home
>>>>> and Pro?
>>>> When I bought our last few computers from Dell they explained that
>>>> the Pro version offered more security over the Home version. They
>>>> especially pushed it for wireless lap tops.
>>> XP Pro also supports multiple monitors, a must for me.
>> Yup, two monitors. I don't care much about security as the Windows
>> side of things will never go on-line. All it will do is mundane
>> tasks,
>> like Cutsheet and ShopBot software (but not to run the controller,)
>> although I will need an OS for that too.
>>
>> .eCabinets mostly.
>>
>> http://www.ecabinetsystems.com/
>
> It's a funny thing but I've never had a machine that was provably
> contaminated from an online source. Usually when there's malware on
> the machine somebody took a file home on diskette to work on it, took
> it back to work, and booted the machine with the diskette in the
> drive.
>
> The best thing you can do for security is go into setup and make sure
> that the machine is set to _not_ boot from diskette.
>
It's not too common to find a relatively new machine with a diskette drive.

"Leon" wrote

> LOL, My first DOS 2.0 computer had 640k ram and two 360 floppies for
massive
> storage, no hard drive, 1985.

How about no RAM! :)

The beginning of the long, slippery slope was an analog computer Dad brought
home when he was working on his masters thesis in Geophysics in the late
50's, I was hooked ... and still sliding.

My first "home" computer was a Heathkit I got used circa '77. It had a paper
tape reader instead of a monitor, the OS was on a cassette, and the board
had 4K of RAM. My first "hard drive" was a GE cassette player hung on a TI
99/4A that had a whopping 16K of RAM ... and, it was a real, honest to
goodness, 16 bit machine!

Perspective, perspective ... and wonders never cease. I now have a
"Terabyte" hard drive smaller than the slide rule case I had in college.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 11/30/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Robatoy" wrote

> I was at FutureShop (like a BestBuy) store looking for a PC for my
> ShopBot (coming soon).
> In the 30 minutes I was there, just in the spot where I was standing,
> two different people said they'd have a specific model computer, IF it
> came with XP instead. The tech replied: "we get a LOT of that."

I work with a lot of financial software and multiple displays. At least
half of what I have seen will not even run on vista. Part of the problem
is that with each succeeding generation of microsoft OS, the support for
multiple graphic displays decreases. The anemic memory (in) capacity helps
with this flaw as well.

On Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:24:56 GMT, Brian Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Only if you don't want someone who has demonstrated an ability to
>recover from failure and an ability to handle it.

There you have it!

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dave In Houston" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>>>
>>>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>>>
>>> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>>>
>>> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
>>> "gigabytes").
>>> "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>>
>> Our first 686 had a whopping 64 MB RAM and a 30 MB HD !
>
>
> Sure that was not a 286 or a 386? Before the 286 was the 8086 and the
> 8088's IIRC. I don't recall 686's.

DOH! What was I thinking?
D-I-H

Swingman wrote:
> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>
>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>
> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>
> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of "gigabytes").
> "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"
>
>
The 360-40 mainframe I worked on in 1969 had a whopping 256KB. It could
run three partitions of apps under OS/360-MFT. The older 7094 had 32K
of 36-bit oil-cooled magnetic core memory. Took a 55 gallon drum of oil
dumped into the memory and about 2-3 days with the heaters running to
get it up to temp so we could boot it.

"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Doug Winterburn" wrote
>
>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>
> Gigabytes ... mea culpa.
>
> (still having a hard time thinking of RAM in the magnitude of
> "gigabytes").
> "Surely we'll never need more than 640K?"

Our first 686 had a whopping 64 MB RAM and a 30 MB HD !
--
Dave in Houston

It is my understanding from the guys in out IT department that Microsoft
has conceded problems with Vista and is offering free downgrades to XP
to anyone who has purchased a new machine with Vista on it if you
request it.



>> The biggest problem we had with the Vista boxes was getting a startup
>> script for our DOS POS application to automatically run. After that,
>> we've been fine since April.

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:22:11 -0700, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

>B A R R Y wrote:
>
>> charlieb wrote:
>>>
>>> How you deal with "failure" can be just as valuable a lesson
>>> as how to deal with "success".
>>
>> I believe Bill Gates said he preferred to hire people who had failed at
>> least once.
>
> Well, that explains a few things.
>
> Not that there is anything wrong with failure, I'm just a little leery of
>anyone who uses it as a criteria for hiring.

Might be why we reboot so often.. good thing they don't make power tools!


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 30 Nov 2007 21:22:11 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Not that there is anything wrong with failure, I'm just a little leery of
>anyone who uses it as a criteria for hiring.

Only if you don't want someone who has demonstrated an ability to
recover from failure and an ability to handle it. If you've never
made mistakes, you won't know how to fix them.

"Maxwell Lol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year
>> old
>> laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);
>
> Say again?


On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year old
> laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);

On Mon, 03 Dec 2007 21:29:51 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Msoft doesn't necessarily have any interest in forcing people to buy new
>computers, their programming however does require more than currently
>deployed machines to fully utilize all new features. Msoft has pretty much
>always been that way.

Yes and no. While they have no direct interest in forcing people to
buy new computers, the majority of new computers out there
automatically come with the newest version of Windows and Microsoft
makes their money off of people buying licensed versions of Windows.
If you buy an XP machine and never upgrade to Vista, they never make
any more money off of you, therefore they have an indirect interest in
getting people to upgrade and replace equipment.

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 09:46:16 -0800 (PST), Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Dec 3, 12:27 pm, Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>> > "Maxwell Lol" wrote in message
>> >> "Swingman" writes:
>>
>> >>> On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year
>> > old
>> >>> laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);
>> >> Say again?
>>
>> > On my laptop with 2 megs/RAM, Vista is faster than my wife's two year old
>> > laptop running XP with the same RAM (thank the Core2 Duo);
>>
>> > Anything else?
>>
>> Maybe 2000 megs or 2 gigs?
>
>My apple tech now talks in terms of 'sticks'. 1/2 a stick is 512
>megs.. a whole stick is 1 gig, a couple of sticks...you get the
>picture..then there is the double stick...
>"Stick a few sticks in there.."
>"Naaa...just add a couple of sticks."
>"Ya need more sticks."
>
>I think Leon meant 2 sticks. <G>

I want a coupla 2x4's in mine..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Mon, 3 Dec 2007 01:16:59 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
<leemichaels*nadaspam*@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>"Robatoy" wrote
>>
>> I'm trusting POS stands for Point Of Sale in this case? <G>
>>
>Is that what POS stands for???
>
>making a note... ;)
>
Reminds me of a Christmas morning when my kids were little...
A friend had bought them a little football and was playing with them in the
yard... I came out and the 4 yr old said "Daddy, Draco taught us the SOL play"

I looked at my friend, he looked at me... then the light went on and he said
"don't worry, it's the Statue Of Liberty play"...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Sun, 2 Dec 2007 16:19:01 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:


>I'm trusting POS stands for Point Of Sale in this case? <G>
>
>r


Depends on which day you ask. <G>