Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
little SOBs will still twist off.
Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> I thought marine instruments and fixtures were made of brass in order to
> resist corrosion?
Brass is acceptable for applications not exposed to either salt sir,
spray or water.
Typical might be an interior cabin lamp where the brass is coated with a
lacquer.
If any form of salt is involved, brass is unacceptable.
HTH
Lew
Sorry to hear about that broken screw, that's a bitch to fix. Common
solution I've heard, after drilling the correct size hole, is to drive
in a steel screw of the same size first, then remove it and put in the
brass one. Still a pita.
BTW, Steinway piano company, at least in the first part of the last
century, used brass plated steel, as big as #14 x 5" long, in places
where they didn't show, such as to hold the legs on, just to prevent
rust. For the long hinge across the top, pure brass was still used, and
we're talking dozens of #4 s into hardwood.
gpdew hit on the proper method for setting brass screws. Drive a steel
one in first. Then replace it with a brass one.
Most of the hardware that comes with brass screws these days use a low
quality of brass. Good brass screws are available and are much nicer to
work with. Finding good brass plated steel screws is harder.
If you're hardware is brass, the fasteners should be brass as well.
In article <[email protected]>,
Australopithecus scobis <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Is there any truth to the story that the rack
>for stacking cannonballs, called a "monkey," was made of brass, which
>would contract in cold temperatures, which in turn would no longer support
>the cannonballs properly, which in turn gave rise to the term "cold enough
>to freeze the balls off a brass monkey?"
*NO*, there is _no_ truth to that story.
(Note: I'd heard this one too, with the thermal contraction resulting in
the bottom row of cannonshot being *trapped* on the frame -- giving rise
to "cold enough to freeze the balls *ON* a brass monkey". Unfortunately,
it just "ain't so, Joe." )
The _first_ element fails -- the triangular frame for holding cannonshot
is *not* called a monkey.
The various branches of the U.S. military have official 'historian' positions.
I checked this out with *both* the Army Historian, and the Navy one.
(a retired career Army _artillery_ officer 'questioned' my story, having never
heard the term, himself; which caused me to do substantial digging to very
"something I =knew= was true". *sigh* it wasn't.}
The 'closest' military reference is a "powder monkey" -- a *person* who
ferried gunpowder to the gun, from the storage area.
A google search, *and* the material at the well-researched and documented
myth-debunking site <http://www.snopes.com> tends to support the (silly
as it sounds on the face of it) claim that the phrase comes from exactly
what it seems to imply -- cast-brass statuary in the likeness of a monkey.
From India, and apparently fairly _thin_ castings. With 'structural failures',
at certain strategic places, when exposed to large temperature changes.
nobody mentioned JB Weld. I think you could use it as a gap between a
busted screw thread and a countersunk screw hardware for strength. The
stuff hardens to a skin like glass.
Could/has anyone ever made a glob with this stuff to twist a busted screw
back out?
I have used it successfully for days/weeks to hold a cracked engine block
together!
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I used to work for a company that made brass hardware; maybe the stuff you
are now complaining about. Part of my duties were dealing with complaints.
The written ones were easy; I would just explain that brass is soft
material. That is why we instructed the user to drill pilot holes and wax
the screws before installation. The telephone calls were more difficult.
They demanded we pay them for all of their work and labor. They demanded to
speak to our president. They demanded we supply steel screws rather than
brass. They demanded that we stop using defective screws. They demanded we
use domestic screws rather than imported screws.
After a year of that I decided maybe I ought to look into it, rather that
take purchasing's word for it that there was nothing wrong with the screws.
I took hundreds of screws, from #0 to #4, and from as many different
shipments as I could find, and put them into oak and pine. With and without
pilot screws. With and without pilot holes, with and without wax, with a
power driver and by hand. The results were that the 0s and 1s would break
if I didn't do everything just right. However, I couldn't get a single
screw to break if I did it properly. The larger screws rarely broke in pine
even if simply screwed in, but oak required pilot holes.
I did this every few years, again with hundreds of screws, just to make sure
nothing changed. I never got a screw to break unless I tried to cut
corners.
I have no axe to grind here; I am completely and permanently out of the
business; I don't even own their stock. Thems the facts.
Brass screws are used because it is simply inappropriate to use steel screws
with brass hardware. You might think it is better, but I am certain the
complaints would go up by a factor of 10 if anyone did that. If you think
I am wrong about that, then organize a letter writing campaign to inundate
the hinge companies. Certainly they will do what the public wants, but I
will be surprised if you get 100 people to demand steel.
BTW, brass screws cost about 3X what brass plated steel screws do; both
because of the material cost, and because the screw companies probably run
1000x as many steel as brass and scale is important. I expect the companies
would be delighted to change if it cut down on complaints and saved money!
The idea of using a steel screw to tap the hole first is a good one. I
actually included a steel screw with our kickplates with instructions to use
it for that purpose. (We tested brass plated stainless steel screws, but
the galvanic reaction was really nasty. Oh, don't get me started on galvanic
reactions between brass kickplates and steel doors...)
RE: Subject
As a boat builder, I'm probably a little prejudiced, but the following
are my choices:
Carbon Steel:
Totally unacceptable
Brass:
Totally unacceptable since salt water leaches the zinc out.
Stainless Steel:
Only if they are 316L. 304 And/Or18-8 (same thing)are for emergencies only.
Silicon Bronze:
My first choice.
HTH
Lew
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 03:15:00 GMT, Lazarus Long
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 5 Feb 2005 18:49:40 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>Steinway piano company, at least in the first part of the last
>>century, used brass plated steel, as big as #14 x 5" long, in places
>>where they didn't show, such as to hold the legs on, just to prevent
>>rust. For the long hinge across the top, pure brass was still used, and
>>we're talking dozens of #4 s into hardwood.
>
>They must've had a system in place to make them work reliably. Be
>nice if mine could be that reliable.
>
>I don't want to sound TOO negative, I did get 4 others in without a
>problem. Careful with the pilot hole size, centered in the hole of
>the piece of hardware, plenty of parafin, driving it by hand so I'd
>feel any resistance, and still, problems.
>
As others have pointed out, using a steel screw before the brass screw to
set the threads is the final step you are missing. A project I did several
years ago had a ton of brass screws -- I never stripped out a single one
after I started using the steel screw and waxing the brass threads with
beeswax before inserting.
As far as quality, I've had really good luck with brass screws from
Jamestown Mfg.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety
Army General Richard Cody
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Sink a steel screw the same size first, back it out, then sink the brass
screw. Then you won't have the problem of trying to remove the broken brass
screw. JB Weld?, never had good luck with it for anything.
"bent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> nobody mentioned JB Weld. I think you could use it as a gap between a
> busted screw thread and a countersunk screw hardware for strength. The
> stuff hardens to a skin like glass.
>
> Could/has anyone ever made a glob with this stuff to twist a busted screw
> back out?
>
> I have used it successfully for days/weeks to hold a cracked engine block
> together!
>
>
>
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Newsgroups
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=----
It is quite likely that what they did was to drill the hole then tap it like
you would metal except the tap would be for a woodscrew. Then, screw in the
brass screw. Same method as recommended here using the steel screw first. It
would seem like a lot of extra work (not to me, I make my living in metal)
but, I'm sure, Steinway would see this as time well spent rather than
messing up a piece.
"Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 5 Feb 2005 18:49:40 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >Steinway piano company, at least in the first part of the last
> >century, used brass plated steel, as big as #14 x 5" long, in places
> >where they didn't show, such as to hold the legs on, just to prevent
> >rust. For the long hinge across the top, pure brass was still used, and
> >we're talking dozens of #4 s into hardwood.
>
> They must've had a system in place to make them work reliably. Be
> nice if mine could be that reliable.
>
> I don't want to sound TOO negative, I did get 4 others in without a
> problem. Careful with the pilot hole size, centered in the hole of
> the piece of hardware, plenty of parafin, driving it by hand so I'd
> feel any resistance, and still, problems.
>
>
The trick is to drive in a steel screw and then remove it and install a
brass screw. Make sure you have a properly fitted screwdriver and you will
have a perfect brass screw head shoeing.
max
> Agreed. I'm a relative amateur, but have had my fill with brass screws...
> such that I just chuck them aside for steel ones.
>
> I remember - my first 'real' project was a toybox (blanket chest). It took
> me about a month to build it... very carefully making the stiles and rails
> with the primitive tools I had. Then after all the building and finishing
> was done, messing the whole top up because of some brass screws that
> stripped in a matter of seconds. A few more hours sanding and finishing and
> some steele screws fixed it, but a lesson noted that wont soon be forgotten.
> I chalked it up to inexperience, but had similar issues since.
>
> Im sure there are some tricks that I just dont know about, but its just
> easier not to work with 'em for me.
>
> I didnt think of 'plated' screws, so I have basically steered clear of
> anything brass looking since.
>
>
>
> "Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
>> ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
>> good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
>> buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
>> Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
>> drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
>> little SOBs will still twist off.
>>
>> Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
>> opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
>> not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>>
>> And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
>> remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
>> It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
>
>
Australopithecus scobis wrote:
> Drifting OT here, but where did nautical references to "polishing
> brass" come from?
I don't have a clue.
The only thing that comes to mind is polishing the brass buttons on
military uniforms.
> What is "brightwork," and is it made of bronze or
> brass?(yeah, yeah, DAGS...)
Actually, the term "brightwork" refers to the exterior wood trim on a
boat that is varnished. It has nothing to do with metal; however, it has
a lot to do with "work".
Maintaining "brightwork" is a lot of "work".
> Is there any truth to the story that the rack
> for stacking cannonballs, called a "monkey," was made of brass, which
> would contract in cold temperatures, which in turn would no longer support
> the cannonballs properly, which in turn gave rise to the term "cold enough
> to freeze the balls off a brass monkey?"
I'm not a naval historian but to the best of my knowledge, the above is
strictly a tale of folklore.
HTH
Lew
[email protected] wrote:
> Sorry to hear about that broken screw, that's a bitch to fix. Common
> solution I've heard, after drilling the correct size hole, is to drive
> in a steel screw of the same size first, then remove it and put in the
> brass one. Still a pita.
> BTW, Steinway piano company, at least in the first part of the last
> century, used brass plated steel, as big as #14 x 5" long, in places
> where they didn't show, such as to hold the legs on, just to prevent
> rust. For the long hinge across the top, pure brass was still used, and
> we're talking dozens of #4 s into hardwood.
>
You might also think about putting a drop of glue on the tip of the
brass screw and either carefully screwing it in or making a hole ever so
slightly oversize and pressing the screw in.
mahalo,
jo4hn
That only happens if they get wet, preferably with salt water. It
effectively forms a battery. I have never seen it happen when dry.
> Anytime you have dissimilar metals in contact, there is a chance of
> corrosion - same electrochemistry as a battery. So steel screws in brass
> hinges could end up discoloring, even though you could drive them in the
> first place.
"Jeff P." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm with you there. The jewelry box I just finished had very expensive
> hinges with the aforementioned brass screws. two of them twisted off and
> I
> had to drill them out and cut a small mortise. I glued in a filler piece
> and tried again. Man, that sucks.
No one seems to have mentioned countersinking -- I had lots of trouble
with brass hinges, even with predrilling, until I noticed that the bevelled
head of the screw sits down a little below the bottom of the hinge. Say
about 1/16" or more -- enough to torque off several heads when they hit
the oak.
I had just "assumed" since the hinges and screws were supplied together,
they must surely be a perfect fit. Feh!
With a bit of countersinking (and predrilling (and waxing (and etc.))) I
stopped
having breakage.
Gary
Anytime you have dissimilar metals in contact, there is a chance of
corrosion - same electrochemistry as a battery. So steel screws in brass
hinges could end up discoloring, even though you could drive them in the
first place. Better to make sure you drill the right size pilot holes, use
oil or paraffin on the threads, set your drill on the softest setting or use
a hand screwdriver.
Steve
"Mike W." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Agreed. I'm a relative amateur, but have had my fill with brass screws...
> such that I just chuck them aside for steel ones.
>
> I remember - my first 'real' project was a toybox (blanket chest). It
> took me about a month to build it... very carefully making the stiles and
> rails with the primitive tools I had. Then after all the building and
> finishing was done, messing the whole top up because of some brass screws
> that stripped in a matter of seconds. A few more hours sanding and
> finishing and some steele screws fixed it, but a lesson noted that wont
> soon be forgotten. I chalked it up to inexperience, but had similar issues
> since.
>
> Im sure there are some tricks that I just dont know about, but its just
> easier not to work with 'em for me.
>
> I didnt think of 'plated' screws, so I have basically steered clear of
> anything brass looking since.
>
>
>
> "Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
>> ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
>> good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
>> buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
>> Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
>> drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
>> little SOBs will still twist off.
>>
>> Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
>> opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
>> not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>>
>> And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
>> remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
>> It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
>
>
admiralty brass was developed for this purpose.
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 03:24:39 GMT, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>RE: Subject
>>
>>As a boat builder, I'm probably a little prejudiced, but the following
>>are my choices:
>>
>>Carbon Steel:
>>Totally unacceptable
>>
>>Brass:
>>Totally unacceptable since salt water leaches the zinc out.
>
> I thought marine instruments and fixtures were made of brass in order to
> resist corrosion?
>
>
>
>
>
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
> The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety
>
> Army General Richard Cody
>
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
One more nice thing about using epoxy, is that if you do need to get
the screw out later, you just need to warm it up with a soldering iron
to loosen the epoxy's grip.
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:28:14 GMT, Lew Hodgett
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Lazarus Long wrote:
>
>> This is my question now: Doe epoxy hold a screw? I'm thinking G2
>> epoxy, or West's System.
>
><snip>
>
>What I am about to describe will hold any fastener on the planet and
>outlast the wood almost forever.
>
>1) Drill the hole oversize about 2-3 diameters.
>
>2) Mix some epoxy and coat the wood walls with a small brush. (I use a
>plumber's flux brush and throw it away when finished)
>
>3) Use a piece of masking tape to cover the back side of the hole. If
>you have drilled a blind hole, forget this step.
>
>4) Mix some epoxy and then add micro balloons to form a paste about like
>mayo, then overfill the hole using a popcicle stick.
>
>5) Wait 24-48 hours for epoxy paste to cure.
>
>6) Redrill pilot hole, remount hardware, and get on with life.
>
>What I have described is a process I use all the time.
>
>SFWIW, the more coarse the thread, the better. I usually use coarse
>thread sheet metal thread screws, not wood screws, but wood screws will
>work.
>
>The above is outlined in the Gougeon Bros book on boat building. (The
>guys who are West Systems).
>
>HTH
>
>Lew
>
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 03:43:58 GMT, "John" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I used to work for a company that made brass hardware
>
>Brass screws are used because it is simply inappropriate to use steel screws
>with brass hardware. You might think it is better, but I am certain the
>complaints would go up by a factor of 10 if anyone did that. If you think
>I am wrong about that, then organize a letter writing campaign to inundate
>the hinge companies. Certainly they will do what the public wants, but I
>will be surprised if you get 100 people to demand steel.
>BTW, brass screws cost about 3X what brass plated steel screws do; both
>because of the material cost, and because the screw companies probably run
>1000x as many steel as brass and scale is important. I expect the companies
>would be delighted to change if it cut down on complaints and saved money!
>
>The idea of using a steel screw to tap the hole first is a good one. I
>actually included a steel screw with our kickplates with instructions to use
>it for that purpose. (We tested brass plated stainless steel screws, but
>the galvanic reaction was really nasty. Oh, don't get me started on galvanic
>reactions between brass kickplates and steel doors...)
>
There's other hardware on my project that uses brass plated steel
screws. How do I know? They stick to a magnet. I'll keep an eye on
them, they're in a fairly visible location. BTW, they're sewing
machine hinges I'm using in a drop front to cover a slide out keyboard
tray.
I'd really like the same for the hinges. In spite of possible
discoloration from galvanic action. It'd be simpler.
Just a minute! Come back in 100 years and take a look at the brass screws
versus the steel ones. The brass will look like new and the steel will be
all rusted.
Brass is softer than steel! You have to drill a A(slightly) larger hole for
brass. A lot of people drive a steel screw first, remove it and then put
the brass in.
"Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
> ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
> good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
> buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
> Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
> drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
> little SOBs will still twist off.
>
> Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
> opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
> not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>
> And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
> remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
> It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 03:24:39 GMT, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]>
wrote:
>RE: Subject
>
>As a boat builder, I'm probably a little prejudiced, but the following
>are my choices:
>
>Carbon Steel:
>Totally unacceptable
>
>Brass:
>Totally unacceptable since salt water leaches the zinc out.
I thought marine instruments and fixtures were made of brass in order to
resist corrosion?
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety
Army General Richard Cody
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
"Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
> ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
> good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
> buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
> Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
> drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
> little SOBs will still twist off.
>
> Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
> opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
> not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>
> And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
> remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
> It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
I had this problem with a piano hinge and the brass screws supplied. Twisted
the heads off 3 of them, even with pre drilled holes. Fortunately it was in
an inconspicuous location and I don't normally use all the holes on a piano
hinge.
Lazarus Long wrote:
> This is my question now: Doe epoxy hold a screw? I'm thinking G2
> epoxy, or West's System.
<snip>
What I am about to describe will hold any fastener on the planet and
outlast the wood almost forever.
1) Drill the hole oversize about 2-3 diameters.
2) Mix some epoxy and coat the wood walls with a small brush. (I use a
plumber's flux brush and throw it away when finished)
3) Use a piece of masking tape to cover the back side of the hole. If
you have drilled a blind hole, forget this step.
4) Mix some epoxy and then add micro balloons to form a paste about like
mayo, then overfill the hole using a popcicle stick.
5) Wait 24-48 hours for epoxy paste to cure.
6) Redrill pilot hole, remount hardware, and get on with life.
What I have described is a process I use all the time.
SFWIW, the more coarse the thread, the better. I usually use coarse
thread sheet metal thread screws, not wood screws, but wood screws will
work.
The above is outlined in the Gougeon Bros book on boat building. (The
guys who are West Systems).
HTH
Lew
In article <[email protected]>,
Lazarus Long <[email protected]> wrote:
> Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
> ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
> good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
> buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
> Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
> drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
> little SOBs will still twist off.
>
> Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
> opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
> not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>
> And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
> remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
> It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
What I haven't seen anyone mention is that if you're working in Oak, or another
acidic wood, you don't want to use steel screws or steel nails either. The
acidic nature of the wood will put dark stains wherever you use those fasteners.
Better to do the brass screws right with pilot holes, pilot steel screws first
and waxing, etc. I've NEVER had a brass screw snap off putting in new work.
--
Regards,
JP
"The measure of a man is what he will do
knowing he will get nothing in return"
Hi Lazarus,
When I assemble a project that requires brass screws. I make the
initial hole threads using a matching size steel screw. Once the hole
and threads are cut, the brass screw goes in easily, and I have never
had a screw twist off.
The added advantage is the screw heads don't get scratched up as much.
As for getting the broken screw out. That's a good one. No idea.
Maybe someone else has a good way to get it out without doing a lot of
damage.
Pat
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:19:17 -0600, Lazarus Long
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
>ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
>good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
>buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
>Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
>drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
>little SOBs will still twist off.
>
>Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
>opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
>not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>
>And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
>remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
>It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
I'm with you there. The jewelry box I just finished had very expensive
hinges with the aforementioned brass screws. two of them twisted off and I
had to drill them out and cut a small mortise. I glued in a filler piece
and tried again. Man, that sucks.
--
Jeff P.
"A new study shows that licking the sweat off a frog
can cure depression. The down side is, the minute
you stop licking, the frog gets depressed again." - Jay Leno
Check out my woodshop at: www.sawdustcentral.com
"Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
> ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
> good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
> buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
> Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
> drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
> little SOBs will still twist off.
>
> Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
> opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
> not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>
> And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
> remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
> It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
Agreed. I'm a relative amateur, but have had my fill with brass screws...
such that I just chuck them aside for steel ones.
I remember - my first 'real' project was a toybox (blanket chest). It took
me about a month to build it... very carefully making the stiles and rails
with the primitive tools I had. Then after all the building and finishing
was done, messing the whole top up because of some brass screws that
stripped in a matter of seconds. A few more hours sanding and finishing and
some steele screws fixed it, but a lesson noted that wont soon be forgotten.
I chalked it up to inexperience, but had similar issues since.
Im sure there are some tricks that I just dont know about, but its just
easier not to work with 'em for me.
I didnt think of 'plated' screws, so I have basically steered clear of
anything brass looking since.
"Lazarus Long" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
> ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
> good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
> buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
> Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
> drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
> little SOBs will still twist off.
>
> Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
> opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
> not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>
> And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
> remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
> It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 16:17:32 GMT, Jim K <jkajpust@###ameritech.net>
wrote:
>Personally, I prefer solid brass screws with brass hardware. I use a
>lot of them and haven't broke one yet.
>
>Drilling out screws is another thing. Probably the neatest job would
>be with a "hollow" drill. It's basically a piece of tubing with teeth.
>You drill out the screw and a little of the surrounding wood, replace
>it with a dowel and redrill. I honestly haven't used one yet, they're
>on my "wanna buy list." The last job, I drilled out the broken screws
>(solid steel by the way) the hard way with a regular bit, then used
>epoxy to fill the resulting holes.
>
This is a reply to all:
The consensus is to use steel screws to "tap" the hole. O.K., so far
so good. For the broken screws that happen, drilling out is to be
done, but the hole either has to receive a plug or fill with epoxy,
then redrill.
This is my question now: Doe epoxy hold a screw? I'm thinking G2
epoxy, or West's System. I have both in my shop. Would simply
pouring epoxy in the now grossly oversized cutout now do the job of
the virgin wood of holding a screw? Or, should I make a small block
to fill a small mortise (the aforementioned gross cutout) around the
drilled out screw?
BTW, confession time: I must shamefully admitt that I made a mistake.
While I did it all right with pilot hole and wax, the VIX bit did not
drill the hole to the required depth. My fault. I didn't check that
until after the second one twisted off. At this time all other holes
are proper size and depth and are "tapped" with a steel screw. I've
gotta fix the other two holes now.
P.S., I got the bifold doors hung with only one screw in each hinge
leaf and they look great! if only I'd gotten it all right from the
get go.
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 05:38:04 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Typical might be an interior cabin lamp where the brass is coated with a
> lacquer.
>
> If any form of salt is involved, brass is unacceptable.
Drifting OT here, but where did nautical references to "polishing
brass" come from? What is "brightwork," and is it made of bronze or
brass?(yeah, yeah, DAGS...) Is there any truth to the story that the rack
for stacking cannonballs, called a "monkey," was made of brass, which
would contract in cold temperatures, which in turn would no longer support
the cannonballs properly, which in turn gave rise to the term "cold enough
to freeze the balls off a brass monkey?"
--
"Keep your ass behind you"
vladimir a t mad {dot} scientist {dot} com
Personally, I prefer solid brass screws with brass hardware. I use a
lot of them and haven't broke one yet.
Drilling out screws is another thing. Probably the neatest job would
be with a "hollow" drill. It's basically a piece of tubing with teeth.
You drill out the screw and a little of the surrounding wood, replace
it with a dowel and redrill. I honestly haven't used one yet, they're
on my "wanna buy list." The last job, I drilled out the broken screws
(solid steel by the way) the hard way with a regular bit, then used
epoxy to fill the resulting holes.
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:19:17 -0600, Lazarus Long
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
>ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
>good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
>buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
>Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
>drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
>little SOBs will still twist off.
>
>Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
>opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
>not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>
>And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
>remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
>It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
On 5 Feb 2005 18:49:40 -0800, [email protected] wrote:
>Steinway piano company, at least in the first part of the last
>century, used brass plated steel, as big as #14 x 5" long, in places
>where they didn't show, such as to hold the legs on, just to prevent
>rust. For the long hinge across the top, pure brass was still used, and
>we're talking dozens of #4 s into hardwood.
They must've had a system in place to make them work reliably. Be
nice if mine could be that reliable.
I don't want to sound TOO negative, I did get 4 others in without a
problem. Careful with the pilot hole size, centered in the hole of
the piece of hardware, plenty of parafin, driving it by hand so I'd
feel any resistance, and still, problems.
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 05:38:04 GMT, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>> I thought marine instruments and fixtures were made of brass in order to
>> resist corrosion?
>
>Brass is acceptable for applications not exposed to either salt sir,
>spray or water.
>
>Typical might be an interior cabin lamp where the brass is coated with a
>lacquer.
>
>If any form of salt is involved, brass is unacceptable.
>
>HTH
>
>Lew
Thanks. Adding that to the "information gained" category.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety
Army General Richard Cody
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
On Sat, 05 Feb 2005 20:19:17 -0600, Lazarus Long
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Why is it some brands of hardware still come with brass screws? Tiny
>ones at that. Ya take a lot of care and time to make something from
>good hardwood, something that has a chance at being an heirloom piece,
>buy very nice hardware (polished brass in my case) and there they are.
>Lousy little brass screws. Not plated, solid. I spite of carefully
>drilling the right size hole and applying parrafin to the threads, the
>little SOBs will still twist off.
>
>Now I gotta stop work and wait 'till the hardware store or Woodcraft
>opens again tomorrow so's I can go lookin' for steel substitutes. Why
>not provide steel screws with the expensive hardware. Grrrrrrrr.
>
>And I gotta try drilling out the one that twisted off, the body
>remaining in the wood is about 1/4 inch below the surface of the wood.
>It's a #4. All without hosing up my nice raised panel doors.
Same problem here. I usually drive a steel one in first, but
sometimes I forget to do that, and the heads usually strip right out.
Luckily, I usually don't bust the heads off, and I generally just tap
the screw down into the pilot hole with a tack hammer. While it
doesn't really look *exactly* like the other screws, it does seem to
hold ok, and looks fine from anything further than a couple of inches
away- at least to me. I figure the threads get mashed down when the
screw is driven in, leaving a series of tiny cleats that keep the
fastener from pulling back out (kind of like a spiral nail) and it's
an acceptable solution for me.
Of course, when the heads break off as they did in your case,
screaming and yelling at the sucker for a while is usually my first
resort. :)
Aut inveniam viam aut faciam