Sawstop Cabinet Saw

Wilson wrote:
> Does anyone have one?
> > > How's it compare to Unisaws?
> > > Wilson


ALL RIGHT!! EVERYBODY MOVE ALONG NOW.......NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!

Robatoy wrote:
> Wilson wrote:
> > Does anyone have one?
> > > > How's it compare to Unisaws?
> > > > Wilson
>
>
> ALL RIGHT!! EVERYBODY MOVE ALONG NOW.......NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!


AAAAAMMMMEN!

It makes me wish (just a little) when someone like Unisaw100 would
simply wipe out any text of the OP's, and just put:


DAGS


Robert

On Nov 26, 5:40 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
[schnipfered]

> And a guard would not have prevented my accident although I still do not use one.

You get better results by flicking the lever to "single shot" from
"automatic". Holds true when firing a machine gun. One shot on target,
as opposed to 30 misses.
What does that have to do with woodworking?
If every action is treated like THAT one will be the one that will hurt
you, then the utmost care in execution will be exercised. It's about
never letting your guard down. It is about eye-contact, when coming
close to a sawblade, or the asshole in the oncoming car who has his
blinker out but doesn't make the turn...eye-contact stops accidents. I
want to think about each movement. I do not want to become careless,
because some (SawStop)machine/guard is supposed to protect me. I want
to see the blade that can hurt me.

One accident that may have been prevented by the SawStop, will not
change the odds for an accident elsewhere in the shop. In fact, I think
that unit may build a false sense of safety which may be carried over
to the shaper (really should have a power feeder), drill press and
radial arm saw..or a jointer.. now there's nasty piece of gear. I DO
want a guard on that. (You don't sew a part-finger back on after a
jointer takes it off.)


r

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "<<<__ Bob __>>>" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I had no idea about the false stops, which could be an issue at $200 or so
> >> with a good blade.
> >
> >
> >Where are you guys finding "data" regarding false triggers ?? ?? ??
> >I've not been able to track down a single verified instance !! !! !!
>
> Do a Google Groups search -- at least one person has posted here, reporting a
> false trip of which he says he has first-hand knowledge.
> >
> [snip]
> >
> >I am also not aware of the "facts" surrounding the alleged attempt by
> >the inventor to get the government to make his device a mandate. I've
> >read several posts making some accusations of that, and feel that it is
> >probably at least partially true.
>
> It's *completely* true. Again, do a Google Groups search -- this was discussed
> in great detail here about two years ago. SawStop *did* in fact petition the
> U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, requesting that their proprietary
> technology become mandated, and there was a post here that referenced the CPSC
> filing. This is not a wild unsubstantiated figment of someone's imagination.
> It's a fact.
>
> [snip]
>
> >The more you study the dynamics of a kickback and it's associated
> >perils, the more sense the SAWSTOP makes. Used correctly, it will
> >almost eliminate the possibility of a kickback, and the blade brake WILL
> >protect you in the event you do something stupid and cause one anyway.
>
> How does the SawStop prevent *kickback* ?? The whole point of the device is to
> prevent *amputations*.
>
> --
> Regards,
> Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
>
> It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

The riving knife adresses kickback. Does hand/blade contact result
from kickback?

alan wrote:
> cons.....although it has been stopped twice because of friction and metal
> tape near blade while the lights where not aligned @ $300 to $500 each time


Hmm cartridge is 60 bucks plus new blade. Metal tape near blade??


> or so they tell us. also blade guard is a bit flimsy and has caused the saw
> to be tagged 3 times (shut down for repair).also for our cabinet shop, it is
> used 80% to cut plywood, it doesn't have the power ,(maybe belts are
> slipping
>
Umm I think someone needs to check the set up smallest motor is 3hp

Leon wrote:
> "Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
> >
> > Oh yes, once that jointer gets through, your finger is going to be
> > thinly sliced and spread over a wide area. But what's next? Do they
> > start making JointerStop and DrillPressStop? Hey, why not go for
> > HammerStop so you don't hit your thumb?
>
>
> No they are going straight to the IdiotStop. It will read your mind and
> stop you from going near any machinery that you are overly confident about
> using.

I will e-mail you my address, so you can send me a new keyboard.
You just couldn't wait till I finished with my coffee, huh?

r



I am envisioning one of those boxing gloves on the end of an
articulated accordion style expandable arm, like the ones which punch
out cartoon characters. Install it at the shop door. Upon entering, it
will ask a series of questions. The second it detects attitude, it
punches you in the face and slams the door shut. IdiotStop... I think
you've got something there. *still laughing*

Tom Watson wrote:
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY
>


>>>They suggested the Oregon inventor was using a safety issue to profiteer.


No WAY! He's a lawyer fighting for the common man.

Morris Dovey wrote:


> |
> | ALL RIGHT!! EVERYBODY MOVE ALONG NOW.......NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!
>
> PLEASE, SIR, STEP AWAY FROM THE ABYSS!!
>
> --

THIS WAY TO THE EGRESS -->

--
It's turtles, all the way down

alan wrote:

> .also for our cabinet shop, it is
> used 80% to cut plywood, it doesn't have the power ,(maybe belts are
> slipping

With 3, 5, and 7.5 horse motors, I have doubts it's underpowered. Maybe, as
you say, the belts are slipping.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Upscale wrote:

> Wow. You must be superman. I'm jealous of all you people who are
> invulnerable and can't be hurt. You are the only people who can safely say
> that you don't have accidents or do something stupid and regret it
> afterwards.What is it like to be perfect?

You'll never know :-).

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Tom Watson wrote:

> If you have an event that requires the deployment of the airbag(s),
> the replacement cost is generally less than ten percent of the cost o=
f
> the vehicle.=A0=A0The=A0level=A0of=A0false=A0positives=A0is=A0less=A0=
than=A00.05%.=A0=A0This
> is most often covered by insurance.
>=20
> SawStop is more than double that, and market reports show that false
> positives=A0are=A0in=A0an=A0unacceptable=A0range.=A0=A0I=A0am=A0not=A0=
aware=A0of=A0any

You're confusing me, Tom. If you're saying that the cost of a replacem=
ent
cartridge and a sawblade are over 20% of the cost of the Sawstop, you'r=
e
wrong. Last time I looked, cartridges cost $60 and sawblades shouldn't=
be
over $140. That's $200 out of a saw/blade cost of $3600 or more. or ro=
ughly
5.5% or less.

If you're implying that the Sawstop costs over 20% of a comparable saw =
without
the safety features, that's open to interpretation. Because of the loa=
d the
safety feature puts on the saw, many of the components are much heavier=
duty
than on other saws. You can attribute that to the safety in which case=

you're right, or you can say you're getting much more saw than others, =
in
which case you're wrong.

BTW, if the offer hasn't ended, Sawstop will send you a new cartridge f=
or free
if you return the fired one -they're collecting data. That could end a=
t any
time, of course.

--=20
It's turtles, all the way down

Robatoy wrote:
>
> On Nov 26, 5:40 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

> want a guard on that. (You don't sew a part-finger back on after a
> jointer takes it off.)
>
>
> r
>
It's also tough to reattach the pink spray you get when you reach past a
grinder.

DAMHIKT

Bill

"Rob Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Good saw, well made.
>
> Have had no misfires, or injuries, and planning to keep it that way.
>
> We do keep a spare cartridge on hand though...maybe the likelihood of
> misfire goes up if you don't? ;)
>
> We do not use dado sets anymore - so no experience there....
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob
>


If I may ask prior to your adoption of sawstops what was your Tablesaw
injury rate? Any rough approximation would suffice.....

Incidentally recently(a week or so) the Mrs. asked me what I wanted for my
birthday and I presented her with a Lee Valley wish list.....she obliged and
in less than a week the order showed up upon my doorstep....complete, nice
stuff, well packed and timely....thanks Rod

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <cntah.17228$uj6.15866@edtnps89>, "ks" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>How does the SawStop prevent *kickback* ?? The whole point of the device
>>>is to prevent *amputations*.

>>Two words:
>>Riving Knife

> That's not part of the SawStop technology, though, nor is it in any way unique
> to that brand.

True. But it's relatively rare in american saws. The PM2000 and Laguna
saws are the only other ones I know of.

Chris

Tom Watson wrote:
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
>
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Interesting. 55,000 injuries (reported) per year yet the CPSC is clearly
playing regulatory politics.

That would change in an afternoon if the head of that organization could
be coaxed into standing on the infeed side of a table saw for a couple
of hours.

Even once the regulatory wheels begin to turn it will take YEARS before
saw manufacturers would have to comply with tighter standards. Research.
Public debate. Draft Standards. Phase-In. Then, eventually, POSSIBLE
enforcement.

Ten years of toe dragging will add up to another half-million or so
(reported) injuries. And who knows how many unreported ones where the
victim couldn't afford medical care so no record was ever made of the
injury.

And that woman doesn't even want to begin the toe-dragging part?

Bill



--
Life is like playing a violin in public and learning the instrument as
one goes on.
Samuel Butler (1835 - 1902)

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 01:18:05 -0500, Bill in Detroit <[email protected]>
wrote:

>It's also tough to reattach the pink spray you get when you reach past a
>grinder.

Hey, new product! GrinderStop!

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 05:12:05 GMT, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Only if you are leaning/reaching over the blade which only a DUMASS would
>do.

Without a blade guard, which takes even a bigger dumbass.

On 26 Nov 2006 16:35:34 -0800, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>One accident that may have been prevented by the SawStop, will not
>change the odds for an accident elsewhere in the shop. In fact, I think
>that unit may build a false sense of safety which may be carried over
>to the shaper (really should have a power feeder), drill press and
>radial arm saw..or a jointer.. now there's nasty piece of gear. I DO
>want a guard on that. (You don't sew a part-finger back on after a
>jointer takes it off.)

Oh yes, once that jointer gets through, your finger is going to be
thinly sliced and spread over a wide area. But what's next? Do they
start making JointerStop and DrillPressStop? Hey, why not go for
HammerStop so you don't hit your thumb?

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > Nothing more than that. Do you buy a second set of tires for your car
in
> > anticipation of a tire failure?
>
> Not a second set, just a spare tire on hand like most people. Consider
that
> a flat tire effectively disables your car for anything approaching proper
> driving, then one can directly compare it to the SawStop. It makes perfect
> sense, especially for a business to have a spare cartridge on hand. Not
> cartridges as in tires, but at least one cartridge as in a single spare
> tire.
>
> Consider the $3,000 cost for this saw and that many people will have
bought
> it primarily for its safety features. 2% of that amount for a spare
> cartridge to maintain production sounds completely reasonable to me.
>
>

I need to bring a center back to my point. I sort of wandered off with the
set of tires thing. My only point is that *if* there is a problem with
misfires, which is the impression that I have come away from this thread
with, then it should not be incumbent upon the relatively few consumers to
shoulder the cost of spare inventory as the manufacturer works out the
kinks. Inventory in this scenario would be an ongoing purchase requirement,
if I understand the issue correctly.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message>

> Didn't one or a couple of earlier posters who own the saw post about
> misfires?

Yes, you're correct, which is why I mentioned that there isn't any type of
perfect machinery on this planet. Nothing is absolutely perfect. That
doesn't for one second suggest that the SawStop is a faulty product. All it
means is that there's always going to be an exception to one working
flawlessly under all conditions. As someone mentioned earlier, SawStop (for
the time being anyway) is accepting the first fired cartridge from people
and replacing it no charge. Apparently, they're using this process to
investigate and evaluate the effectiveness of their saw out in the general
public. Any company of merit is always looking to improve their product.
That doesn't mean it's defective.

If you're really interested in information on the SawStop in actual use and
the amount of activations, I'd suggest you query Robin Lee of Lee Valley
Tools. Most if not all of the saws within Lee Valley Tools have been
replaced with SawStops. I think LV has in excess of a dozen saws. I don't
know if he will respond, but Robin should be able to give you an honest
evaluation of LV's experience with activations, faulty or otherwise.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> This is the aspect of these conversations that makes them so annoying.
You
> are flat out wrong with this assertion. The field of woodworking is
> populated with more people who successfully made it through lifetimes of
> using tools without the dreaded injuries that you so adamantly promise.

And you misunderstand completely what I'm saying. Brian is contending that
he can't have any type of accident because he's too careful. Sorry, but life
just doesn't work that way. Sure, someone being careful will definitely
minimize the chances of something untoward happening. But, accidents do
happen, even to the most careful person. Why do you think they're called
accidents? It's unintentional, but it does happen. It's sheer arrogance (and
essentially a really stupid statement) to say otherwise.

> > that of being the perfect asshole.
> There you go again...

Hey, he calls me a dipshit, I feel perfectly entitled to respond in kind.

In article <[email protected]>, J. Clarke
<[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:22:47 +0000, Leon wrote:
>
> > "M Berger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Even if they had no injuries prior, I'll bet they're saving
> >> a significant amount on insurance.
> >
> >
> > And promoting customer Good Will.
>
> I'm sorry, but how does using a Sawstop saw promote customer good will?
> Most customers neither know nor care what kind of tools you use as long as
> you can do the work.

Lee Valley offers seminars for customers in their workshops.

"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> While it is mostly anecdotal, misfires seem to be an issue.

Yeah, I have to agree. All that time wasted because the business owner
didn't think to have an extra part on hand. Who'd ever want to prepare
themselves or their business in case of something like that? Just think of
all that time wasted. It must be worse than an employee hurting themselves
on the job and having to go for extended workman's comp. And it would
certainly be more time wasted than having to hire a replacement employee and
taking the time needed to train them to handle their job.

Of course, all that probably wouldn't happen because the injured employee
would probably sue at some point and the business would likely be shut down
because of legal costs, fantastically increased insurance premiums and the
initial loss of business because of the injury.

But, there's a solution. The business can move lock, stock and barrel up to
Canada. We're not so quick to jump into court and tie everything up for a
considerable period. That is the purview of the US citizen. We have better
things to do than support a growing army of personal injury lawyers. Up
here, we like to feed them to the sled dogs and make a tidy profit selling
tickets to the event.

However, I digress. We were talking about wasting time. Let me wrap things
up by saying that it doesn't make any sense at all to invest in a relatively
expensive tool for a business but neglect to factor in a few critical spare
parts for when the employees take their lunch time hot dog and decide to
test out the new machine.

:)

CW wrote:

>>The more you study the dynamics of a kickback and it's associated
>>perils, the more sense the SAWSTOP makes. Used correctly, it will
>>almost eliminate the possibility of a kickback, and the blade brake WILL
>>protect you in the event you do something stupid and cause one anyway.
>
>
> So, the brake device fires when it detects a possible kickback situation?
> That's news to me. Please explain how it does that and how it differentiates
> a normal cut from a possible kickback situation.
>


WHERE did I ever make THAT statement ?? ?? ??

The riving knife prevents kickbacks .. the brake helps you stay intact
IF you fail to use it. Sheesh !! !! !!

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] () wrote:

> >
> >You're right there, but the way the patent office works these days, I
> >would not be surprised if someone was able to patent the rising &
> >falling riving knife.
>
> I think I'll send that in. Thanks for the suggestion. <g>
>

Ah-ha! But Doug - you are so precise that it's a guarantee that your patent
application will be difinitive to the T. Leaving lots of room of course,
for others of us to circumvent your design and patent similar
technologies...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 04:34:06 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>How is it that you're so perfect and have never ever hurt yourself? Can I
>have some of that dope you're smoking? I'd like to feel omnipotent too.

You know, it's sad that some people are so flawed that they take
offense to others who actually know how to be careful. Sorry Upscale,
not everyone is a clumsy dipshit like you.

Robatoy (in [email protected])
said:

| Wilson wrote:
|| Does anyone have one?
|||| How's it compare to Unisaws?
|||| Wilson
|
|
| ALL RIGHT!! EVERYBODY MOVE ALONG NOW.......NOTHING TO SEE HERE!!!

PLEASE, SIR, STEP AWAY FROM THE ABYSS!!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> That's it. Keep a room full of spares on hand for those times that the
> machine misfires due to a yet unresolved design issue.

Naturally, you own a SawStop and are closely familiar with all those
unspoken and unresolved design issues. It's also obvious that you have
master's degrees in mechanics, electronics and have attended Mr. Gass'
business numerous times to evaluate said design issues.

If those things aren't true then the reverse must be true, that you have no
experience with those unspoken design issues whatsoever and decided that
you'd elucidate us with some verbal diarrhea.

"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Just curious about something -- who pays the legal fees in a civil case in
> Canadian courts? Here in the U.S., each side is responsible for its own
legal
> fees, and personal injury lawyers typically work on contingency: the fee
is a
> portion of the settlement if they win, and nothing if they lose. This
creates
> an obvious incentive to sue at the drop of a hat, because both the
plaintiff
> and the lawyer have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, regardless of
the
> merits of the suit.

That's probably the biggest difference. While Canadian lawyers will
occasionally work on a contingency basis, it's much more the exception
rather than the rule. There generally has to be some pretty convincing
evidence on hand for our lawyers to take on a contingency case. We do have a
legal aid system, but to use it, one has to be very much on the destitute
side to benefit from it. For the most part, it's cash up front by the
plaintiff and that weeds out almost all of the large frivolous lawsuits.
Small claims court (>$10,000 claims) with a less solemn setting is the
closest thing we have to the lawsuit at the drop of a hat scenario.

There is downside though in my opinion. Some cases that "should" be tried
never see the light of day in a court house. I guess that's the trade-off.

If the Sawstop turns out to be good, reliable technology, I suspect you will
see others try it in the future. My biggest concern is they are going to
get the Government involved and we will have another safety feature
legislated down our throats. From what I read, that is already in process.

On the other hand, it seems to be a pretty good safety feature. Most of us
think we are safe in the shop. I was telling my wife about my 30-year
safety record a few years ago - about a week before I went to the emergency
room.

RonN

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone have one?
>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>> > Wilson
>
>

In article <[email protected]>, Joe Gorman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Don Fearn wrote:
>> I think it was Joe Gorman <[email protected]> who stated:
>>
>>> Tom Watson wrote:
>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY

>>> Posting early with no caffeine yet, be gentle.
>>>
>>> Interesting, she says the saw stops in 3/1000 of a second yet their main
>>> page http://sawstop.com/ only promises 5/1000 of a second. Minor but
>>
>> MEGO . . . .

>MEGO? http://www.megomuseum.com/ ?

My Eyes Glaze Over

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message>
>
> > Didn't one or a couple of earlier posters who own the saw post about
> > misfires?
>
> Yes, you're correct, which is why I mentioned that there isn't any type of
> perfect machinery on this planet. Nothing is absolutely perfect. That
> doesn't for one second suggest that the SawStop is a faulty product. All
it
> means is that there's always going to be an exception to one working
> flawlessly under all conditions. As someone mentioned earlier, SawStop
(for
> the time being anyway) is accepting the first fired cartridge from people
> and replacing it no charge. Apparently, they're using this process to
> investigate and evaluate the effectiveness of their saw out in the general
> public. Any company of merit is always looking to improve their product.
> That doesn't mean it's defective.

The original posts certainly did imply (to my eye) that these were true
misfires. That's a design issue that has yet to be worked out, if that's
the case. No need to be an applogist for Sawstop - it's just a matter of
fact. Like all new products, things have to be worked out sometimes. My
response was to your comment that the owner should invest in an inventory of
spare items to protect against downtime incurred by something that really
was not supposed to happen - a misfire. That's an appologist position. My
comment was that it should not be the responsibility of the owner to
inventory parts in anticipation of the thing firing when it should not.
Nothing more than that. Do you buy a second set of tires for your car in
anticipation of a tire failure?

>
> If you're really interested in information on the SawStop in actual use
and
> the amount of activations, I'd suggest you query Robin Lee of Lee Valley
> Tools. Most if not all of the saws within Lee Valley Tools have been
> replaced with SawStops. I think LV has in excess of a dozen saws. I don't
> know if he will respond, but Robin should be able to give you an honest
> evaluation of LV's experience with activations, faulty or otherwise.
>
>

I'm not interested. I think the saw looks to be a pretty good design from a
number of perspectives and I think the stop mechanism will probably be
de-bugged quickly enough, and will eventually be a pretty good machine. I
think the cost is too high, but that's a very subjective statement. Again -
my original comment to you was not addressing the saw, it was addressing
your assertion that if the saw is still prone to mis-fires, then the owner
should stock parts. My contention is that the manufacturer should assume
the position of standing behind those mis-fire issues. Let them supply
parts in anticipation of a mis-fire until they get the bugs worked out.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> That's why some of us aren't worried about a tablesaw chasing us down
> and causing us bodily harm, we consider the possibilities carefully
> and don't take any chances to begin with.

How is it that you're so perfect and have never ever hurt yourself? Can I
have some of that dope you're smoking? I'd like to feel omnipotent too.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If the Sawstop turns out to be good, reliable technology, I suspect you
will
> see others try it in the future.

For the greater part, most will agree it's a good technology. The biggest
uproar about the SawStop is the attempt to make it a mandated safety
technology.

> My biggest concern is they are going to
> get the Government involved and we will have another safety feature
> legislated down our throats. From what I read, that is already in
process.

It may happen, but it probably won't get that far because insurance concerns
will likely cause most businesses to adopt the technology anyway.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Nothing more than that. Do you buy a second set of tires for your car in
> anticipation of a tire failure?

Not a second set, just a spare tire on hand like most people. Consider that
a flat tire effectively disables your car for anything approaching proper
driving, then one can directly compare it to the SawStop. It makes perfect
sense, especially for a business to have a spare cartridge on hand. Not
cartridges as in tires, but at least one cartridge as in a single spare
tire.

Consider the $3,000 cost for this saw and that many people will have bought
it primarily for its safety features. 2% of that amount for a spare
cartridge to maintain production sounds completely reasonable to me.

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 02:01:11 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Well, that one sure got some action!
>And one guy has actually used one!
>I had no idea about the false stops, which could be an issue at $200 or so
>with a good blade.
>I'm gonna try to find one on display.

If you did a search you might find that it's nowhere near $200 unless
your blades are titanium. The poster who said that was as misinformed
as the one on the 16th who said:

>jtpr <[email protected]> wrote:
>>$4000 for a table saw?!?!?! Holy cow, wish I had your budget...
> --Who said it costs $4k?? Not even half that IIRC. Not much more
>than a Delta: a pittance when you think about the potential downsides..

You're unlikely to be able to get one in your shop for less than $3K+.

But I've said too much...

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news

> > > That's it. Keep a room full of spares on hand for those times that
the
> > > machine misfires due to a yet unresolved design issue.
>
> At times, you're entertaining. At other times, you make a complete ass of
> yourself.

Hey, you're the one making statements about "unresolved design issues"
without any factual evidence to back it up. With the verbal diarrhea you're
spouting, it suggests that you're the real ass.

Realistically, there isn't any type of perfect machinery on this planet. If
you'd said something like that then I'd agree with you fully, but that's not
what you said is it? You just opened your mouth and spouted your unspoken
suggestion that there was something that needs to be fixed with the SawStop.
And, that leads me to say it again. You're full of crap.

> I had no idea about the false stops, which could be an issue at $200 or so
> with a good blade.


Where are you guys finding "data" regarding false triggers ?? ?? ??
I've not been able to track down a single verified instance !! !! !!

BTW .. a replacement cartrige is $59.00 added to the cost of
repair/replacement of whatever blade you were using when the device
triggered. I triggered the device on two occasions where I worked ..
both were demonstrations and intentional .. we were using a 40 tooth
blade in the demo, and in each case, 3 teeth were embedded in the
cartridge. 3-4 replaced teeth on a good blade should run less than $15
at most sharpening shops. Even if you are talking about replacing a
Forrest blade .. I just ordered two from Amazon for $68.00 each. Now,
let's take an imaginary trip to the Emergence Room and start adding up
the $$$$$$$. FWIW .. in both instances, the blades were ATB grind,
and you could easily tell from the damage that ONLY ONE TOOTH ever
touched the hot dog.

I am also not aware of the "facts" surrounding the alleged attempt by
the inventor to get the government to make his device a mandate. I've
read several posts making some accusations of that, and feel that it is
probably at least partially true. What I don't undersatnd is, what
does a marketing blunder on his part have to do with keeping my fingers
on my hands ?? I've read some posts declaring "I'd probably buy one IF
he didn't try to blah, blah, blah" No matter WHAT HE DOES, I want to
KEEP MY FINGERS.

YES .. $4,000 is a lot of money for a saw .. .. ..
YES .. $100 or more to replace blade & cartridge sounds like a big
investment .. .. ..
YES .. the SAWSTOP is an excellent saw and a wonderfully designed saw
even without the brake .. .. ..

oh yeah .. .. ..
YES .. it WILL cost you in excess of $40,000 to have an amputated finger
reattached, not to maention the paing, suffering, loss of work, loss of
use of the appendage, etc.

The more you study the dynamics of a kickback and it's associated
perils, the more sense the SAWSTOP makes. Used correctly, it will
almost eliminate the possibility of a kickback, and the blade brake WILL
protect you in the event you do something stupid and cause one anyway.

I've got it! I'VE GOT IT!


The **** "USENET NEWSGROUP OFF-TOPIC STOP" ****

What time does the patent office open?


--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - [email protected]

In article <[email protected]>,
J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
<snipped...>
>I'm sorry, but how does using a Sawstop saw promote customer good will?
<...snipped...>


Less blood on the merchandise?



--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - [email protected]

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > While it is mostly anecdotal, misfires seem to be an issue.
>
> Yeah, I have to agree. All that time wasted because the business owner
> didn't think to have an extra part on hand. Who'd ever want to prepare
> themselves or their business in case of something like that? Just think of
> all that time wasted. It must be worse than an employee hurting themselves
> on the job and having to go for extended workman's comp. And it would
> certainly be more time wasted than having to hire a replacement employee
and
> taking the time needed to train them to handle their job.

Thankfully, that employee will now never be able to hurt themselves.

>
> Of course, all that probably wouldn't happen because the injured employee
> would probably sue at some point and the business would likely be shut
down
> because of legal costs, fantastically increased insurance premiums and the
> initial loss of business because of the injury.

Yeah - it's just a real problem. We can't seem to keep businesses open
because of the daily injuries and the resultant loss of production and
inevitable legal fees. In another twelve days or so we won't have any more
production wood shops left in the United States.

>
> But, there's a solution. The business can move lock, stock and barrel up
to
> Canada. We're not so quick to jump into court and tie everything up for a
> considerable period. That is the purview of the US citizen. We have better
> things to do than support a growing army of personal injury lawyers. Up
> here, we like to feed them to the sled dogs and make a tidy profit selling
> tickets to the event.

That's true but it's hard for Americans to adapt to holding that "We're
better about everything" that Canadians are so well known for.

>
> However, I digress. We were talking about wasting time. Let me wrap things
> up by saying that it doesn't make any sense at all to invest in a
relatively
> expensive tool for a business but neglect to factor in a few critical
spare
> parts for when the employees take their lunch time hot dog and decide to
> test out the new machine.
>

That's it. Keep a room full of spares on hand for those times that the
machine misfires due to a yet unresolved design issue.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:41:40 -0500, Joe Bemier
<[email protected]> wrote:

>For some folks the SS might be worth the extra money. The premium you
>would pay is certainly cost effective as compared to an injury. I
>think it would depend on a self assessment of your safety habits and
>risk.

I have a PM66 and I'm very happy with it, so I'm certainly not in the
market for a new saw to begin with, but even if I was and money was no
object, I would never buy a SawStop, I'd go get one of the new
PM2000s. My problem with the SS is primarily political, I don't like
what they tried to pull and I'm going to hold a grudge for a long,
long time, but also, I simply don't think I need to be protected from
myself. I've been doing woodworking for many years and I still have
all my fingers and toes. Heck, my father worked for many years on a
crappy 8 1/2" benchtop saw with a completely ineffective guard and he
never hurt himself either. Being careful and knowing what your
limitations are is *ALWAYS* more important than having someone's nanny
equipment on your saw. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee I'd never
trip the SS, at least not the way it's supposed to be tripped. Faulty
and expensive trips, as are widely reported, would probably just make
me mad.

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:41:40 -0500, Joe Bemier
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>For some folks the SS might be worth the extra money. The premium you
>>would pay is certainly cost effective as compared to an injury. I
>>think it would depend on a self assessment of your safety habits and
>>risk.
>
> I have a PM66 and I'm very happy with it, so I'm certainly not in the
> market for a new saw to begin with, but even if I was and money was no
> object, I would never buy a SawStop, I'd go get one of the new
> PM2000s. My problem with the SS is primarily political, I don't like
> what they tried to pull and I'm going to hold a grudge for a long,
> long time, but also, I simply don't think I need to be protected from
> myself. I've been doing woodworking for many years and I still have
> all my fingers and toes. Heck, my father worked for many years on a
> crappy 8 1/2" benchtop saw with a completely ineffective guard and he
> never hurt himself either. Being careful and knowing what your
> limitations are is *ALWAYS* more important than having someone's nanny
> equipment on your saw. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee I'd never
> trip the SS, at least not the way it's supposed to be tripped. Faulty
> and expensive trips, as are widely reported, would probably just make
> me mad.

Now that is funny.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If the Sawstop turns out to be good, reliable technology, I suspect you
> will see others try it in the future. My biggest concern is they are
> going to get the Government involved and we will have another safety
> feature legislated down our throats. From what I read, that is already in
> process.
>
> On the other hand, it seems to be a pretty good safety feature. Most of
> us think we are safe in the shop. I was telling my wife about my 30-year
> safety record a few years ago - about a week before I went to the
> emergency room.
>
> RonN

Those that think that they are immune are typically the most likely to get
hurt. Until you realize that you do not have total control you are
kinda going in blind.

> Those that think that they are immune are typically the most likely to get
> hurt. Until you realize that you do not have total control you are
> kinda going in blind.

Absolutely correct! I made a stupid assumption that when you turn the
switch off the TS blade stops. Walked away, realized I had left a cutoff
sitting on the tabletop. Over-reached the blade and ^%#&$.

RonB

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


>
> Oh yes, once that jointer gets through, your finger is going to be
> thinly sliced and spread over a wide area. But what's next? Do they
> start making JointerStop and DrillPressStop? Hey, why not go for
> HammerStop so you don't hit your thumb?


No they are going straight to the IdiotStop. It will read your mind and
stop you from going near any machinery that you are overly confident about
using.

Only if you are leaning/reaching over the blade which only a DUMASS would
do.

"<<<__ Bob __>>>" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> TSW632 wrote:
>
>
> > The riving knife adresses kickback. Does hand/blade contact result
> > from kickback?
>
> In many instances, absolutely. If you're lucky, the blade will yank
> the piece of stock out of your hand and throw it at you .. .. if not,
> the blade will catch the piece of stock, lift it, and befin to rotate it
> as the teeth get a good bite. Depending on your hand position at this
> moment, you could come down on the blade with a finger/hand/or even a
> wrist.

Well, that one sure got some action!
And one guy has actually used one!
I had no idea about the false stops, which could be an issue at $200 or so
with a good blade.
I'm gonna try to find one on display.
Thanks,
Wilson


"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone have one?
>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>> > Wilson
>
>

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone have one?
>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>> > Wilson
>
>

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone have one?

Several here to. Lee Valley has a bunch in their stores.

> How's it compare to Unisaws?

More often it is compared to the Powermatics.

In article <[email protected]>, Brian Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:59:41 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>You misunderstand. I'm not taking offence at you knowing how to be careful.
>>I'm ridiculing you for thinking that it's impossible for you to have an
>>accident of some type and getting hurt. It means that it will happen to you,
>>sooner than later.
>
>I never said it was impossible.

Then what did you mean when you wrote " In fact, I can pretty much guarantee
I'd never trip the SS, at least not the way it's supposed to be tripped." ?

> Anything is possible. I'm saying
>that I'm careful enough that I don't have to worry about being
>seriously injured because I think ahead and don't make risky moves.

You may be right. I hope you are. But have you considered the consequences if
you are not?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] () wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>>In article <cntah.17228$uj6.15866@edtnps89>, "ks" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>Two words:
>>>Riving Knife
>>
>>That's not part of the SawStop technology, though, nor is it in any way unique
>
>>to that brand.
>>
>
>You're right there, but the way the patent office works these days, I
>would not be surprised if someone was able to patent the rising &
>falling riving knife.

I think I'll send that in. Thanks for the suggestion. <g>

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>, "<<<__ Bob __>>>" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I had no idea about the false stops, which could be an issue at $200 or so
>> with a good blade.
>
>
>Where are you guys finding "data" regarding false triggers ?? ?? ??
>I've not been able to track down a single verified instance !! !! !!

Do a Google Groups search -- at least one person has posted here, reporting a
false trip of which he says he has first-hand knowledge.
>
[snip]
>
>I am also not aware of the "facts" surrounding the alleged attempt by
>the inventor to get the government to make his device a mandate. I've
>read several posts making some accusations of that, and feel that it is
>probably at least partially true.

It's *completely* true. Again, do a Google Groups search -- this was discussed
in great detail here about two years ago. SawStop *did* in fact petition the
U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, requesting that their proprietary
technology become mandated, and there was a post here that referenced the CPSC
filing. This is not a wild unsubstantiated figment of someone's imagination.
It's a fact.

[snip]

>The more you study the dynamics of a kickback and it's associated
>perils, the more sense the SAWSTOP makes. Used correctly, it will
>almost eliminate the possibility of a kickback, and the blade brake WILL
>protect you in the event you do something stupid and cause one anyway.

How does the SawStop prevent *kickback* ?? The whole point of the device is to
prevent *amputations*.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> He tried to get laws passed that would require his device on all saws.
> The government told him to go to Hell.


LOL.. A little interpretation on your part?

Hi
I'm a long time lurker.....

Sawstop...we have one in our shop at work (Hatteras)....also have two
unisaws

pros......love the lefthand bevel/besmyer type fence/saftey stop

cons.....although it has been stopped twice because of friction and metal
tape near blade while the lights where not aligned @ $300 to $500 each time
or so they tell us. also blade guard is a bit flimsy and has caused the saw
to be tagged 3 times (shut down for repair).also for our cabinet shop, it is
used 80% to cut plywood, it doesn't have the power ,(maybe belts are
slipping

saftey wise ..go for it......otherwise go to grizzley/unisawpowermatic

have had a old powermatic...new unisaw..new grizz....would take them first
and still have some change

for what it's worth

alan
"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:09:38 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Does anyone have one?
>>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>>> > Wilson
>>
> For my two cents, Wilson.....
>
> I would not buy a SS. For the $$ it will require you could go to
> grizzly.com, buy a very nice cabinet saw and have plenty of balance
> for other equipment.
> For some folks the SS might be worth the extra money. The premium you
> would pay is certainly cost effective as compared to an injury. I
> think it would depend on a self assessment of your safety habits and
> risk.
> And, personally I don't mind seeing your post. While this topic *has*
> been raised and well discussed, that does not always mean the
> specific/exact info you are seeking is within the archive.

Thanks for all the helpful answers!
No doubt you have all spent the $3,000 but don't have time to talk about
your saws.
FYI, my other post, and any answers, has disappeared, so I tried again
thinking it never got out.
Yep, I can search as well as any, but also wanted some fresh ideas from
current users of current saws.
WL

"LRod" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:09:38 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Does anyone have one?
>>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>
> Given that this is your second identical such query in the last couple
> of days, and given that a couple of perfect answers to the first one
> were posted, (namely to do a search to obtain the voluminous data
> extant relating to your question), I'm led to the conclusion that you
> don't want to do the research, but are more interested in letting
> others do your work for them.
>
>
> --
> LRod
>
> Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite
>
> Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999
>
> http://www.woodbutcher.net
>
> Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997
>
> email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
> If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
> care to correspond with you anyway.

In article <[email protected]>, "<<<__ Bob __>>>" <[email protected]> wrote:
>CW wrote:
>
>>>The more you study the dynamics of a kickback and it's associated
>>>perils, the more sense the SAWSTOP makes. Used correctly, it will
>>>almost eliminate the possibility of a kickback, and the blade brake WILL
>>>protect you in the event you do something stupid and cause one anyway.
>>
>>
>> So, the brake device fires when it detects a possible kickback situation?
>> That's news to me. Please explain how it does that and how it differentiates
>> a normal cut from a possible kickback situation.
>>
>
>
>WHERE did I ever make THAT statement ?? ?? ??

He quoted your statement above -- duh. That's what I was taking issue with,
too -- your claim that the blade brake will protect you in the event of a
kickback.
>
>The riving knife prevents kickbacks .. the brake helps you stay intact
>IF you fail to use it. Sheesh !! !! !!

And what does that have to do with the blade brake?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Thanks. There's some impetus from SWMBO, just for the safety aspect
>> and the money is there.
>> However, I wouldn't want it if it's not an excellent saw, safety or
>> not. WL
>
> Considering the circumstances, I'd buy it. Nothing wrong with a
> little extra safeguard.
>
>
>

Particularly if SWMBO has cleared it already.

An approved, quality tool is a good tool.

Patriarch,
whose wife used to confuse a Unisaw and a Sawzall, in conversation, at
least...

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in news:mN_9h.3787$1s6.2094
@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Does anyone have one?
>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>> > Wilson
>
>

unisaws blow it out of the water.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> I have heard that SawStop is even going to charge for their products
> and the dealers will collect sales tax. Damn them. They are doing
> every thing so legal. I bet they even have a patent on their
> technology. They don't fight fair. Damn... ;~)
>
>

After all is said and done; how do you like your Sawstop? Have you had any
false triggers etc.? Does it perform (in your opinion) as a $3K saw should?
Thanks,
Hank

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
.What is it like to be perfect?

It's lonely at the top but someone's got to do it. :)

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> equipment on your saw. In fact, I can pretty much guarantee I'd never
> trip the SS, at least not the way it's supposed to be tripped.

You've never ever cut yourself on anything. You've never tripped and fallen.
You've never hit your thumb with a hammer, accidentally bumped your head on
anything or ever hurt yourself in any way shape or form.

Wow. You must be superman. I'm jealous of all you people who are
invulnerable and can't be hurt. You are the only people who can safely say
that you don't have accidents or do something stupid and regret it
afterwards.What is it like to be perfect?

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> You know, it's sad that some people are so flawed that they take
> offense to others who actually know how to be careful. Sorry Upscale,
> not everyone is a clumsy dipshit like you.

You misunderstand. I'm not taking offence at you knowing how to be careful.
I'm ridiculing you for thinking that it's impossible for you to have an
accident of some type and getting hurt. It means that it will happen to you,
sooner than later.

Normally, I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt, but in your case when it
happens to you, it will be most appropriate. And when it comes to perfection
and never making an error, the only perfection you seem to have obtained is
that of being the perfect asshole.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message news
>
> > > > That's it. Keep a room full of spares on hand for those times that
> the
> > > > machine misfires due to a yet unresolved design issue.
> >
> > At times, you're entertaining. At other times, you make a complete ass
of
> > yourself.
>
> Hey, you're the one making statements about "unresolved design issues"
> without any factual evidence to back it up. With the verbal diarrhea
you're
> spouting, it suggests that you're the real ass.
>
> Realistically, there isn't any type of perfect machinery on this planet.
If
> you'd said something like that then I'd agree with you fully, but that's
not
> what you said is it? You just opened your mouth and spouted your unspoken
> suggestion that there was something that needs to be fixed with the
SawStop.
> And, that leads me to say it again. You're full of crap.
>
>

Didn't one or a couple of earlier posters who own the saw post about
misfires?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

I quoted your statement. Try reading. Here it is again.


"<<<__ Bob __>>>" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> CW wrote:
>
> >>The more you study the dynamics of a kickback and it's associated
> >>perils, the more sense the SAWSTOP makes. Used correctly, it will
> >>almost eliminate the possibility of a kickback, and the blade brake WILL
> >>protect you in the event you do something stupid and cause one anyway.
> >
>
>
> WHERE did I ever make THAT statement ?? ?? ??
>

"M Berger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Even if they had no injuries prior, I'll bet they're saving
> a significant amount on insurance.


And promoting customer Good Will.

On 26 Nov 2006 16:35:34 -0800, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>On Nov 26, 5:40 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>[schnipfered]
>
>> And a guard would not have prevented my accident although I still do not use one.
>
>You get better results by flicking the lever to "single shot" from
>"automatic". Holds true when firing a machine gun. One shot on target,
>as opposed to 30 misses.
>What does that have to do with woodworking?
>If every action is treated like THAT one will be the one that will hurt
>you, then the utmost care in execution will be exercised. It's about
>never letting your guard down. It is about eye-contact, when coming
>close to a sawblade, or the asshole in the oncoming car who has his
>blinker out but doesn't make the turn...eye-contact stops accidents. I
>want to think about each movement. I do not want to become careless,
>because some (SawStop)machine/guard is supposed to protect me. I want
>to see the blade that can hurt me.
>
>One accident that may have been prevented by the SawStop, will not
>change the odds for an accident elsewhere in the shop. In fact, I think
>that unit may build a false sense of safety which may be carried over
>to the shaper (really should have a power feeder), drill press and
>radial arm saw..or a jointer.. now there's nasty piece of gear. I DO
>want a guard on that. (You don't sew a part-finger back on after a
>jointer takes it off.)
>
>
>r

Gotta Witness!

Absolutely Freakin' Amen, Robbie!

That was exactly my point in the previous threads about this weiner
wacking wonder. (Did they test them on Nathan's Kosher All Beef?)

There is a damned fine book by David Pye called, The Nature And Art Of
Workmanship, that delineates craftsman made products as being made
under the rubric of The Workmanship Of Risk, and production made
products as being made under that of, The Workmanship Of Certainty.

Pye was actually talking about the methods used in the small shop v.
those used in production, and their result in the arena of design, but
he may as well have been talking about the level of risk in one shop
v. another.

The only employee that I ever had get hurt did it on the jointer.

I'm personally scared to death by the shaper and use any contrivance
possible to keep my hands away from the cutterhead.

I can see SawStop being implemented through OSHA in production shops,
once the bugs have been ironed out.

Right now, you are asking a shop owner to carry replacement cartridges
for a unit that has not undergone adequate market testing, that costs
a substantial percentage of the original cost of the saw.

Take the airbag, please.

If you have an event that requires the deployment of the airbag(s),
the replacement cost is generally less than ten percent of the cost of
the vehicle. The level of false positives is less than 0.05%. This
is most often covered by insurance.

SawStop is more than double that, and market reports show that false
positives are in an unacceptable range. I am not aware of any
insurance program that covers the cost.

Maybe we should have freaking airbags on our saws that pop out of the
blade guard and knock our fingers away. It won't fry the saw and
you'll have a nice sack to store your oddments in.


Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 00:40:13 GMT, "alan" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Hi
> I'm a long time lurker.....
>
>Sawstop...we have one in our shop at work (Hatteras)....also have two
>unisaws
>
>pros......love the lefthand bevel/besmyer type fence/saftey stop
>
>cons.....although it has been stopped twice because of friction and metal
>tape near blade while the lights where not aligned @ $300 to $500 each time


That is an issue you need to be prepared for. I know of only one saw
and it has "stopped" without reason once in the 4-6 months since it
was purchased. The owner runs a Cabinet shop and bought it under
pressure from the Insurance Co. He said that it cost him about $400
but the biggest issue was downtime waiitng for the new parts.
While it is mostly anecdotal, misfires seem to be an issue.

Good Luck!

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
> ever need, it's just not worth the pricetag and their faulty stopping
> technology just isn't necessary in my shop. I'll go on for another 40
> years of woodworking without serious injury, without having some nanny

> In fact, I can pretty much guarantee I'd never trip the SS

And of course, you're intimately familiar with SawStop and can say with
absolute certainty that their technology is faulty. Why do you think I've
been responding to you as I have? You've stated things that you really don't
know for sure and made assertions that are impossible to verify. Whether you
ever get a SawStop is your business and I couldn't really care less, but
however you want to spin it, the technology has considerably value and
there's nothing your fantasy statements can do to change that.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
<snip>
> If you're really interested in information on the SawStop in actual use
> and
> the amount of activations, I'd suggest you query Robin Lee of Lee Valley
> Tools. Most if not all of the saws within Lee Valley Tools have been
> replaced with SawStops. I think LV has in excess of a dozen saws. I don't
> know if he will respond, but Robin should be able to give you an honest
> evaluation of LV's experience with activations, faulty or otherwise.
>

Good saw, well made.

Have had no misfires, or injuries, and planning to keep it that way.

We do keep a spare cartridge on hand though...maybe the likelihood of
misfire goes up if you don't? ;)

We do not use dado sets anymore - so no experience there....

Cheers -

Rob

In article <[email protected]>, "Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
>But, there's a solution. The business can move lock, stock and barrel up to
>Canada. We're not so quick to jump into court and tie everything up for a
>considerable period. That is the purview of the US citizen.

Just curious about something -- who pays the legal fees in a civil case in
Canadian courts? Here in the U.S., each side is responsible for its own legal
fees, and personal injury lawyers typically work on contingency: the fee is a
portion of the settlement if they win, and nothing if they lose. This creates
an obvious incentive to sue at the drop of a hat, because both the plaintiff
and the lawyer have everything to gain, and nothing to lose, regardless of the
merits of the suit. One proposed solution is to make the losing side in any
civil suit responsible for the legal fees of the winner. Is that how it works
in Canada? Or are your lawyers simply less shark-like than ours?


> We have better
>things to do than support a growing army of personal injury lawyers. Up
>here, we like to feed them to the sled dogs and make a tidy profit selling
>tickets to the event.

When do the tix go on sale? I want to buy some...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> You misunderstand. I'm not taking offence at you knowing how to be
careful.
> I'm ridiculing you for thinking that it's impossible for you to have an
> accident of some type and getting hurt. It means that it will happen to
you,
> sooner than later.

This is the aspect of these conversations that makes them so annoying. You
are flat out wrong with this assertion. The field of woodworking is
populated with more people who successfully made it through lifetimes of
using tools without the dreaded injuries that you so adamantly promise.
Safety is necessary - no one yet has suggested otherwise, but not every
device out there is absolutely necessary to ensure against an inevitable
incident. Sorry - contend all that you want but historical numbers are just
simply against you. It is when you make ludicrous assertions like this that
you do set yourself up for critical comment. Neither Brian nor anyone else
has ever once suggested that it is impossible for them to have an accident
of some type. This type of hyperbole does nothing to further your argument.

>
> Normally, I wouldn't like to see anyone hurt, but in your case when it
> happens to you, it will be most appropriate. And when it comes to
perfection
> and never making an error, the only perfection you seem to have obtained
is
> that of being the perfect asshole.
>
>

There you go again...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

> How does the SawStop prevent *kickback* ?? The whole point of the device
> is to
> prevent *amputations*.
>

Two words:
Riving Knife

Now That item should be mandatory

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:37:48 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Thanks. There's some impetus from SWMBO, just for the safety aspect and the
>money is there.
>However, I wouldn't want it if it's not an excellent saw, safety or not.
>WL
>"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:09:38 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Does anyone have one?
>>>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>>>> > Wilson
>>>
>> For my two cents, Wilson.....
>>
>> I would not buy a SS. For the $$ it will require you could go to
>> grizzly.com, buy a very nice cabinet saw and have plenty of balance
>> for other equipment.
>> For some folks the SS might be worth the extra money. The premium you
>> would pay is certainly cost effective as compared to an injury. I
>> think it would depend on a self assessment of your safety habits and
>> risk.
>> And, personally I don't mind seeing your post. While this topic *has*
>> been raised and well discussed, that does not always mean the
>> specific/exact info you are seeking is within the archive.
>
I believe it is a well made saw - no issues there.

"Rob Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> We do keep a spare cartridge on hand though

Are most of your SawStops in the same location or are they various
locations? Would I be correct in assuming that every location with a SawStop
has at least one cartridge on hand?

> .maybe the likelihood of misfire goes up if you don't? ;)

Murphy's Law?

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Thanks for all the helpful answers!
> No doubt you have all spent the $3,000 but don't have time to talk about
> your saws.
> FYI, my other post, and any answers, has disappeared, so I tried again
> thinking it never got out.
> Yep, I can search as well as any, but also wanted some fresh ideas from
> current users of current saws.
> WL

I understand that Wilson, but if you had done a quick search you would have
found some very recent discussions on the topic. There isn't really going
to be anything any fresher than what has been discussed over the past couple
of months. It is common courtesy to first search and then ask, just in the
name of not asking questions that have been discussed frequently or
recently.

As to your other post disappearing and all that - even to the point of your
original post... if you really wanted to hear something new, or you had
problems seeing your original post, a simple explanation would save you a
lot of grief. To simply post the question as you did and then follow it up
with the very same question after others had responded is only going to earn
the types of responses you saw.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

TSW632 wrote:


> The riving knife adresses kickback. Does hand/blade contact result
> from kickback?

In many instances, absolutely. If you're lucky, the blade will yank
the piece of stock out of your hand and throw it at you .. .. if not,
the blade will catch the piece of stock, lift it, and befin to rotate it
as the teeth get a good bite. Depending on your hand position at this
moment, you could come down on the blade with a finger/hand/or even a
wrist.

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 07:30:05 -0500, "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>This is the aspect of these conversations that makes them so annoying. You
>are flat out wrong with this assertion. The field of woodworking is
>populated with more people who successfully made it through lifetimes of
>using tools without the dreaded injuries that you so adamantly promise.

Exactly. The overwhelming majority of woodworkers make it through
life without losing a limb. Do we get scraped up, bang our fingers
with hammers, get cut, bruised and bandaged? Of course, most of us
do, but most of us never cut anything off of ourselves accidentally,
especially those of us who actually know how to be careful, know what
our tools can do and know how to take precautions to dramatically
lessen the possibility of personal injury.

>Safety is necessary - no one yet has suggested otherwise, but not every
>device out there is absolutely necessary to ensure against an inevitable
>incident. Sorry - contend all that you want but historical numbers are just
>simply against you. It is when you make ludicrous assertions like this that
>you do set yourself up for critical comment. Neither Brian nor anyone else
>has ever once suggested that it is impossible for them to have an accident
>of some type. This type of hyperbole does nothing to further your argument.

Some people want everyone else to take care of them, they're afraid of
having personal responsibility for their own health, safety and
wellbeing. Unfortunately, these people usually are the ones who want
to mandate that everyone else do what they want as well. SawStop, as
a company, is one of those groups and their apologists largely are as
well. I've never said that the saw isn't well made, but for what I'd
ever need, it's just not worth the pricetag and their faulty stopping
technology just isn't necessary in my shop. I'll go on for another 40
years of woodworking without serious injury, without having some nanny
company tell me I have to pay them to take care of me.

"Brian Henderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Then you made a poor assumption and an unsafe decision to leave the
> cutoff there. That's something that is completely within your control
> though and thinking safety first might have told you that there was a
> kickback possibility and you should move the cutoff completely away
> from the blade, moving or not.

Hell he made an unsafe decision to not have some one else cut the wood for
him. He should have called you, I guess.

>
> That's why some of us aren't worried about a tablesaw chasing us down
> and causing us bodily harm, we consider the possibilities carefully
> and don't take any chances to begin with.

I guess you have your TS chained sown so that it will not chase you down
and cause you bodily harm.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > That's it. Keep a room full of spares on hand for those times that the
> > machine misfires due to a yet unresolved design issue.
>
> Naturally, you own a SawStop and are closely familiar with all those
> unspoken and unresolved design issues. It's also obvious that you have
> master's degrees in mechanics, electronics and have attended Mr. Gass'
> business numerous times to evaluate said design issues.
>
> If those things aren't true then the reverse must be true, that you have
no
> experience with those unspoken design issues whatsoever and decided that
> you'd elucidate us with some verbal diarrhea.
>
>

At times, you're entertaining. At other times, you make a complete ass of
yourself.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 10:07:29 -0600, RonB wrote:

> If the Sawstop turns out to be good, reliable technology, I suspect you will
> see others try it in the future.

Not likely until the Sawstop patents expire. He approached the major
manufacturers and was rejected by all of them.

> My biggest concern is they are going
> to get the Government involved and we will have another safety feature
> legislated down our throats. From what I read, that is already in
> process.

He tried to get laws passed that would require his device on all saws.
The government told him to go to Hell.

> On the other hand, it seems to be a pretty good safety feature. Most of
> us think we are safe in the shop. I was telling my wife about my
> 30-year safety record a few years ago - about a week before I went to
> the emergency room.
>
> RonN
>
> "Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Does anyone have one?
>>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>>> > Wilson
>>
>>

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:01:17 +0000, Leon wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> He tried to get laws passed that would require his device on all saws.
>> The government told him to go to Hell.
>
>
> LOL.. A little interpretation on your part?

Well, he didn't get what he wanted.

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 23:18:27 -0500, <<<__ Bob __>>> wrote:

> Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Do a Google Groups search -- at least one person has posted here, reporting a
>> false trip of which he says he has first-hand knowledge.
>
>
>
> Did a Google search .. still cannot find verification of a false-trigger
> .. ..
> never said it didn't/couldn't happen .. just that I can't track it down.
>
>> It's *completely* true. Again, do a Google Groups search -- this was discussed
>> in great detail here about two years ago. SawStop *did* in fact petition the
>> U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, requesting that their proprietary
>> technology become mandated, and there was a post here that referenced the CPSC
>> filing. This is not a wild unsubstantiated figment of someone's imagination.
>> It's a fact.
>
> I did locate info. verifying that the owner did, in fact petition to
> have "Sawstop-like" technology mandated on new saws made in the U.S. ..
> .. BUT .. .. ONLY after having met with officials from other tool
> companies who resisted his technology ONLY in the interest of their own
> bottom-line.

Uh, that's _his_ spin.

> Face it .. if Powermatic/Delta/Grizzly adopted this
> technolgy, they would have one heck of a time selling off and supporting
> their old stock. THEY don't care about you or your fingers .. .. they
> care about corporate profits .. .. PLUS .. .. they are afraid of being
> sued at some point in time for not having adopted a known safety
> technology.

If they were afraid of that then they would have adopted it as
soon as it became available.

> According to my Google search, he was told by one major
> tool representative that IF his device ever came to market, THEY could
> easily go bankrupt.

And who is reporting this?

> After going toe-to-toe with folks of that caliber,
> I really don't blame him for pulling out all the stops and trying his
> petition tactic. I don't really agree with that tactic but I do
> understand it.

Oh, it's understandable but it's not forgiveable.

>> How does the SawStop prevent *kickback* ?? The whole point of the
>> device is to prevent *amputations*.
>
> Riving-knife .. .. and a well-designed one at that .. .. BUT .. .. you
> still have the option of removing it, hence my final comment about
> ALMOST making kickbacks impossible, but saving your fingers if you
> circumvent it.
>
> I noticed you conveniently "snipped" all of the factual data that was of
> a positive note .. .. ..

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Even if they had no injuries prior, I'll bet they're saving
a significant amount on insurance.

Rod & Betty Jo wrote:

> If I may ask prior to your adoption of sawstops what was your Tablesaw
> injury rate? Any rough approximation would suffice.....

So your philosophy is NO safety features until they're
available for EVERYTHING?

Sawstop is undoubtedly working on making the technology
work with other machine tools too.

Robatoy wrote:
> One accident that may have been prevented by the SawStop, will not
> change the odds for an accident elsewhere in the shop. In fact, I think
> that unit may build a false sense of safety which may be carried over
> to the shaper (really should have a power feeder), drill press and
> radial arm saw..or a jointer.. now there's nasty piece of gear. I DO
> want a guard on that. (You don't sew a part-finger back on after a
> jointer takes it off.)

Why is it a big deal? Thousands of companies try to get their
products approved and mandated by the government. Maybe someone
working on the campaign lost a limb and didn't want to see that
happen to others.

If the technology were mandated, think of how fast the price would
drop. That would benefit everybody.

Doug Miller wrote:

> It's *completely* true. Again, do a Google Groups search -- this was discussed
> in great detail here about two years ago. SawStop *did* in fact petition the
> U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, requesting that their proprietary
> technology become mandated, and there was a post here that referenced the CPSC
> filing. This is not a wild unsubstantiated figment of someone's imagination.
> It's a fact.

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 09:27:01 -0600, M Berger wrote:

> Why is it a big deal? Thousands of companies try to get their
> products approved and mandated by the government.

"Approved" for Federal purchase is fine. "Mandated" for products not sold
to the government is not.

> Maybe someone
> working on the campaign lost a limb and didn't want to see that happen
> to others.
>
> If the technology were mandated, think of how fast the price would drop.
> That would benefit everybody.

What makes you think the price would drop? If it was mandated and nobody
could circumvent Sawstop's patents then they could charge whatever they
wanted to for it.

> Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> It's *completely* true. Again, do a Google Groups search -- this was
>> discussed in great detail here about two years ago. SawStop *did* in
>> fact petition the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, requesting
>> that their proprietary technology become mandated, and there was a post
>> here that referenced the CPSC filing. This is not a wild
>> unsubstantiated figment of someone's imagination. It's a fact.

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 15:22:47 +0000, Leon wrote:

> "M Berger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Even if they had no injuries prior, I'll bet they're saving
>> a significant amount on insurance.
>
>
> And promoting customer Good Will.

I'm sorry, but how does using a Sawstop saw promote customer good will?
Most customers neither know nor care what kind of tools you use as long as
you can do the work.

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:41:05 +0000, Brian Henderson wrote:

> On 26 Nov 2006 16:35:34 -0800, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>One accident that may have been prevented by the SawStop, will not
>>change the odds for an accident elsewhere in the shop. In fact, I think
>>that unit may build a false sense of safety which may be carried over
>>to the shaper (really should have a power feeder), drill press and
>>radial arm saw..or a jointer.. now there's nasty piece of gear. I DO
>>want a guard on that. (You don't sew a part-finger back on after a
>>jointer takes it off.)
>
> Oh yes, once that jointer gets through, your finger is going to be
> thinly sliced and spread over a wide area. But what's next? Do they
> start making JointerStop and DrillPressStop?

Actually, if I recall correctly their intention was to have one of their
stops on just about every power tool in the shop, not just the table saw.

> Hey, why not go for
> HammerStop so you don't hit your thumb?

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Tom Watson wrote:
> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY
>
> Regards,
>
> Tom Watson
>
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
Posting early with no caffeine yet, be gentle.

Interesting, she says the saw stops in 3/1000 of a second yet their main
page http://sawstop.com/ only promises 5/1000 of a second. Minor but
not out of line for a reporter listed as 'a regulatory columnist '
rather than a woodworking writer. The overview page does mention 3 -
5/1000 so she's going with the 'better' number:-) Maybe she's done other
technical articles but I didn't see an immediate link to her past work.
Searching by her last name shows an interesting array of articles over
the past few months.
I didn't notice her mentioning hot Sawstop tried to force legislation
that would make their method the only one allowed, which is what started
the 'Buzz Saw of Opposition'. We'd all (well, mostly all so don't jump
down my throat for this) appreciate keeping all 10 fingers, but aren't
interested in the government 'helping' us by forcing it down our throat.
I for one would like to know how effective it would be just to drop the
blade below the table without the braking device that destructively
stops the blade. The additional mass that would have to be added to let
the saw survive that without requiring realignment, (it doesn't require
realignment does it?) would be a plus.
They don't mention it and neither does the writer but I seem to recall
someone here mentioning a show where the demonstrator took a full swing
at the running blade with a large salami and received only a minor cut
in the salami.
Joe

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 02:11:49 -0500, Bill in Detroit wrote:

> Tom Watson wrote:
>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tom Watson
>>
>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
> Interesting. 55,000 injuries (reported) per year yet the CPSC is clearly
> playing regulatory politics.
>
> That would change in an afternoon if the head of that organization could
> be coaxed into standing on the infeed side of a table saw for a couple
> of hours.

Yeah, she might change from "toe-dragging" to "cold day in Hell".

In any case, worksite safety is OSHA's turf, not CPSC.

> Even once the regulatory wheels begin to turn it will take YEARS before
> saw manufacturers would have to comply with tighter standards. Research.
> Public debate. Draft Standards. Phase-In. Then, eventually, POSSIBLE
> enforcement.
>
> Ten years of toe dragging will add up to another half-million or so
> (reported) injuries.

Most of which are minor, and many of which Sawstop would have done nothing
to prevent (banged head on table while crouched under wing of saw, dropped
saw on foot, got splinter in eye, etc--read the incident reports, don't
just accept that they were all incidents of somebody cutting his finger
off).

> And who knows how many unreported ones where the
> victim couldn't afford medical care so no record was ever made of the
> injury.
>
> And that woman doesn't even want to begin the toe-dragging part?

Good for her.

Personally I don't want to live in a world where the only table saws
available are monsters that take a crew or a forklift to move them and
cost several thousand dollars. The Sawstop saw is a heavy machine and it
took two iterations before they brought it to market--perhaps you should
ask yourself why--was it because they wanted to sell something equivalent
to a Unisaw or was it that the first time around the cheaper, lighter saw
self-destructed the third time the cartridge fired?

Has Sawstop _ever_ demonstrated it on a 400 buck jobsite saw? If not
perhaps you should ask why.

--

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Don Fearn wrote:
> I think it was Joe Gorman <[email protected]> who stated:
>
>> Tom Watson wrote:
>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Tom Watson
>>>
>>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>>>
>>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
>> Posting early with no caffeine yet, be gentle.
>>
>> Interesting, she says the saw stops in 3/1000 of a second yet their main
>> page http://sawstop.com/ only promises 5/1000 of a second. Minor but
>
> MEGO . . . .
>
> -D
MEGO? http://www.megomuseum.com/ ?
Joe

Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Joe Gorman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Don Fearn wrote:
>>> I think it was Joe Gorman <[email protected]> who stated:
>>>
>>>> Tom Watson wrote:
>>>>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY
>
>>>> Posting early with no caffeine yet, be gentle.
>>>>
>>>> Interesting, she says the saw stops in 3/1000 of a second yet their main
>>>> page http://sawstop.com/ only promises 5/1000 of a second. Minor but
>>> MEGO . . . .
>
>> MEGO? http://www.megomuseum.com/ ?
>
> My Eyes Glaze Over
>
SAT, should have gone here http://www.acronymfinder.com/
Joe

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:09:38 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Does anyone have one?
>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?

Given that this is your second identical such query in the last couple
of days, and given that a couple of perfect answers to the first one
were posted, (namely to do a search to obtain the voluminous data
extant relating to your question), I'm led to the conclusion that you
don't want to do the research, but are more interested in letting
others do your work for them.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"<<<__ Bob __>>>" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Where are you guys finding "data" regarding false triggers ?? ?? ??
> I've not been able to track down a single verified instance !! !! !!

They have been reported in this group by owners of the saw.

>
> The more you study the dynamics of a kickback and it's associated
> perils, the more sense the SAWSTOP makes. Used correctly, it will
> almost eliminate the possibility of a kickback, and the blade brake WILL
> protect you in the event you do something stupid and cause one anyway.

So, the brake device fires when it detects a possible kickback situation?
That's news to me. Please explain how it does that and how it differentiates
a normal cut from a possible kickback situation.

Yes.

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Does anyone have one?

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 03:59:41 -0500, "Upscale" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>You misunderstand. I'm not taking offence at you knowing how to be careful.
>I'm ridiculing you for thinking that it's impossible for you to have an
>accident of some type and getting hurt. It means that it will happen to you,
>sooner than later.

I never said it was impossible. Anything is possible. I'm saying
that I'm careful enough that I don't have to worry about being
seriously injured because I think ahead and don't make risky moves.
It's funny, just about all the old woodworkers I know who have been
doing this all their lives and still have never been seriously injured
would laugh at you. Sure, it'll happen to them sooner or later, I
guess it just means much, much, much, much later in their case.

Thanks. There's some impetus from SWMBO, just for the safety aspect and the
money is there.
However, I wouldn't want it if it's not an excellent saw, safety or not.
WL
"Joe Bemier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:09:38 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Does anyone have one?
>>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>>> > Wilson
>>
> For my two cents, Wilson.....
>
> I would not buy a SS. For the $$ it will require you could go to
> grizzly.com, buy a very nice cabinet saw and have plenty of balance
> for other equipment.
> For some folks the SS might be worth the extra money. The premium you
> would pay is certainly cost effective as compared to an injury. I
> think it would depend on a self assessment of your safety habits and
> risk.
> And, personally I don't mind seeing your post. While this topic *has*
> been raised and well discussed, that does not always mean the
> specific/exact info you are seeking is within the archive.

Wilson wrote:


> FYI, my other post, and any answers, has disappeared, so I tried again
> thinking it never got out.

Almost all the post to text news groups can be access through the
"Google Groups" archives. The URL for the "Google Groups" advanced
search engine is:

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--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]

In article <cntah.17228$uj6.15866@edtnps89>, "ks" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> How does the SawStop prevent *kickback* ?? The whole point of the device
>> is to
>> prevent *amputations*.
>>
>
>Two words:
>Riving Knife

That's not part of the SawStop technology, though, nor is it in any way unique
to that brand.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article <[email protected]>,
Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>How does the SawStop prevent *kickback* ?? The whole point of the device is to
>prevent *amputations*.
<...snipped...>

Besides its namesake feature, the whole saw is designed to increase
safety compared to more traditional saws. Probably the main
improvement is the riving knife (splitter) that rises and falls with
the blade, allowing it to say in place for most any cut. I'm not
enthused by the company's politics and think the sawstop brake thing is
overhyped and overdesigned, but IMHO the riving knife that falls with
the blade is a desireable feature for both safety and performance.

I'm no patent lawyer, and I don't know exactly what the sawstop
patents cover, but I dont see how anyone could patent the broad idea
of a safety device that stops a sawblade or any other type of moving
machinery. There's just too much prior art. I suppose there is some
merit in the sensor design part of the patent, but even so, I don't
see that as being something unique, it could be done another way.

Did you ever try to select a floor in an elevator with the touch-style
buttons by tapping them with a pencil?


--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - [email protected]

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 17:02:10 -0600, [email protected] ()
wrote:


>If he had hired Jack Abramhoff all new saws would be using it now.

If he'd hired Jack Abramhoff, all of the federal prison system
wooddorking shops would have one now.



Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

Yes, Robin Lee being one of them.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Didn't one or a couple of earlier posters who own the saw post about
> misfires?
>
> --
>
> -Mike-
> [email protected]
>
>

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 17:26:25 -0500, Tom Watson <[email protected]>
wrote:

>http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY
>
>Regards,
>
>Tom Watson
>
>tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>
>http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/


An excellent read.
Hopefully this will quell the baseless ranting of a few.

I think it was Joe Gorman <[email protected]> who stated:

>Tom Watson wrote:
>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tom Watson
>>
>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
>Posting early with no caffeine yet, be gentle.
>
>Interesting, she says the saw stops in 3/1000 of a second yet their main
>page http://sawstop.com/ only promises 5/1000 of a second. Minor but

MEGO . . . .

-D
--
"What do *you* care what other people think?" --Arline Feynman

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 18:01:17 +0000, Leon wrote:
>
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> He tried to get laws passed that would require his device on all saws.
>>> The government told him to go to Hell.
>>
>>
>> LOL.. A little interpretation on your part?
>
> Well, he didn't get what he wanted.

Perhaps not the obvious but her certainly got a lot of recognition. Cheap
advertising.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> On Nov 26, 5:40 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [schnipfered]
>
>> And a guard would not have prevented my accident although I still do not
>> use one.
>
> You get better results by flicking the lever to "single shot" from
> "automatic". Holds true when firing a machine gun. One shot on target,
> as opposed to 30 misses.
> What does that have to do with woodworking?
> If every action is treated like THAT one will be the one that will hurt
> you, then the utmost care in execution will be exercised. It's about
> never letting your guard down. It is about eye-contact, when coming
> close to a sawblade, or the asshole in the oncoming car who has his
> blinker out but doesn't make the turn...eye-contact stops accidents. I
> want to think about each movement. I do not want to become careless,
> because some (SawStop)machine/guard is supposed to protect me. I want
> to see the blade that can hurt me.

Agreed. Unfortunately a guard can lead to the same false since of security.
I too prefer to see the blade. Being alert is key but after a long day
alertness can diminish.

Doug Miller wrote:

> Do a Google Groups search -- at least one person has posted here, reporting a
> false trip of which he says he has first-hand knowledge.



Did a Google search .. still cannot find verification of a false-trigger
.. ..
never said it didn't/couldn't happen .. just that I can't track it down.

> It's *completely* true. Again, do a Google Groups search -- this was discussed
> in great detail here about two years ago. SawStop *did* in fact petition the
> U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, requesting that their proprietary
> technology become mandated, and there was a post here that referenced the CPSC
> filing. This is not a wild unsubstantiated figment of someone's imagination.
> It's a fact.

I did locate info. verifying that the owner did, in fact petition to
have "Sawstop-like" technology mandated on new saws made in the U.S. ..
.. BUT .. .. ONLY after having met with officials from other tool
companies who resisted his technology ONLY in the interest of their own
bottom-line. Face it .. if Powermatic/Delta/Grizzly adopted this
technolgy, they would have one heck of a time selling off and supporting
their old stock. THEY don't care about you or your fingers .. .. they
care about corporate profits .. .. PLUS .. .. they are afraid of being
sued at some point in time for not having adopted a known safety
technology. According to my Google search, he was told by one major
tool representative that IF his device ever came to market, THEY could
easily go bankrupt. After going toe-to-toe with folks of that caliber,
I really don't blame him for pulling out all the stops and trying his
petition tactic. I don't really agree with that tactic but I do
understand it.
>
> How does the SawStop prevent *kickback* ?? The whole point of the device is to
> prevent *amputations*.

Riving-knife .. .. and a well-designed one at that .. .. BUT .. .. you
still have the option of removing it, hence my final comment about
ALMOST making kickbacks impossible, but saving your fingers if you
circumvent it.

I noticed you conveniently "snipped" all of the factual data that was of
a positive note .. .. ..

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:41:40 -0500, Joe Bemier
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:09:38 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Does anyone have one?
>>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?

>And, personally I don't mind seeing your post. While this topic *has*
>been raised and well discussed, that does not always mean the
>specific/exact info you are seeking is within the archive.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but "Does anyone have one?" and
"How's it compare to Unisaws?" are hardly new questions and are
virtually guaranteed to be in the archive. Now, if he had asked if the
drive belts or bearings are easily obtained and replaced, that would
have been an entirely different story.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Rob Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> We do keep a spare cartridge on hand though
>
> Are most of your SawStops in the same location or are they various
> locations? Would I be correct in assuming that every location with a
> SawStop
> has at least one cartridge on hand?
>
>> .maybe the likelihood of misfire goes up if you don't? ;)
>
> Murphy's Law?

Hi -

They're pretty much in every store (or will be) - we started replacing them
at the rate of 1 per month, and will continue until we've replaced them all.
I think every address has a spare cartridge, not necessarily every saw...

Cheers -

Rob

"M Berger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Why is it a big deal? Thousands of companies try to get their
> products approved and mandated by the government. Maybe someone
> working on the campaign lost a limb and didn't want to see that
> happen to others.
>
> If the technology were mandated, think of how fast the price would
> drop. That would benefit everybody.


I have heard that SawStop is even going to charge for their products and the
dealers will collect sales tax. Damn them. They are doing every thing so
legal. I bet they even have a patent on their technology. They don't fight
fair. Damn... ;~)

On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 15:41:58 -0600, "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Absolutely correct! I made a stupid assumption that when you turn the
>switch off the TS blade stops. Walked away, realized I had left a cutoff
>sitting on the tabletop. Over-reached the blade and ^%#&$.

Then you made a poor assumption and an unsafe decision to leave the
cutoff there. That's something that is completely within your control
though and thinking safety first might have told you that there was a
kickback possibility and you should move the cutoff completely away
from the blade, moving or not.

That's why some of us aren't worried about a tablesaw chasing us down
and causing us bodily harm, we consider the possibilities carefully
and don't take any chances to begin with.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 21:04:47 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Thanks for all the helpful answers!
>No doubt you have all spent the $3,000 but don't have time to talk about
>your saws.
>FYI, my other post, and any answers, has disappeared, so I tried again
>thinking it never got out.
>Yep, I can search as well as any, but also wanted some fresh ideas from
>current users of current saws.

Since the saw has only actually been in workshops for less than two
years (or thereabouts), anything you read from the archives will
likely be as fresh as you could possibly need, even if it's 1 year and
10 months old. And certain to be in the archives are two threads that
I can think of posted here within the last two months.

Incidentally, your other post (and any answers) are (drum roll) in the
archives.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 17:09:38 GMT, "Wilson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Does anyone have one?
>> > How's it compare to Unisaws?
>> > Wilson
>
For my two cents, Wilson.....

I would not buy a SS. For the $$ it will require you could go to
grizzly.com, buy a very nice cabinet saw and have plenty of balance
for other equipment.
For some folks the SS might be worth the extra money. The premium you
would pay is certainly cost effective as compared to an injury. I
think it would depend on a self assessment of your safety habits and
risk.
And, personally I don't mind seeing your post. While this topic *has*
been raised and well discussed, that does not always mean the
specific/exact info you are seeking is within the archive.

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 02:11:49 -0500, Bill in Detroit <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Tom Watson wrote:
>> http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Tom Watson
>>
>> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
>>
>> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/
>Interesting. 55,000 injuries (reported) per year yet the CPSC is clearly
>playing regulatory politics.
>
I read "an estimated" not reported. I discounted the article and
stopped reading at that point. Did I not read far enough?

Estimated? By whom?

Frank
>That would change in an afternoon if the head of that organization could
>be coaxed into standing on the infeed side of a table saw for a couple
>of hours.
>
>Even once the regulatory wheels begin to turn it will take YEARS before
>saw manufacturers would have to comply with tighter standards. Research.
>Public debate. Draft Standards. Phase-In. Then, eventually, POSSIBLE
>enforcement.
>
>Ten years of toe dragging will add up to another half-million or so
>(reported) injuries. And who knows how many unreported ones where the
>victim couldn't afford medical care so no record was ever made of the
>injury.
>
>And that woman doesn't even want to begin the toe-dragging part?
>
>Bill

"Rod & Betty Jo" <[email protected]> wrote in message

<snip>
>
>
> If I may ask prior to your adoption of sawstops what was your Tablesaw
> injury rate? Any rough approximation would suffice.....
>
> Incidentally recently(a week or so) the Mrs. asked me what I wanted for my
> birthday and I presented her with a Lee Valley wish list.....she obliged
> and in less than a week the order showed up upon my doorstep....complete,
> nice stuff, well packed and timely....thanks Rod
>

Hi Rod -

Only one, that I know of...no lost work, but took two fingertips. This was a
guy with decades of experience too...

Bigger issue for us is having people remove guards. No matter what your
policy is, or how you train people, get caught with a missing guard, and
it's very uncool...

The issue for us is really that we're large enough (say 1000 people) and
have 13 - 14 saws in use that an accident starts to be likely....

The only accident rate I'm interested in is zero.

Cheers -

Rob

"Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks. There's some impetus from SWMBO, just for the safety aspect and
> the money is there.
> However, I wouldn't want it if it's not an excellent saw, safety or not.
> WL

Considering the circumstances, I'd buy it. Nothing wrong with a little
extra safeguard.

"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Those that think that they are immune are typically the most likely to
>> get hurt. Until you realize that you do not have total control you
>> are kinda going in blind.
>
> Absolutely correct! I made a stupid assumption that when you turn the
> switch off the TS blade stops. Walked away, realized I had left a cutoff
> sitting on the tabletop. Over-reached the blade and ^%#&$.

I kinda had the same situation. The saw had been turned off and I lost 1/2
my thumb. Accidents and lapse of judgment are can happen to anyone. I was
one of those silly people that thought that after 12 years of serious
woodworking that it could not happen to meeeee. Now after about 30 years I
realize more and more the possibilities.
And a guard would not have prevented my accident although I still do not use
one. Guards so not cover ever scenario.

In article <[email protected]>,
Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <cntah.17228$uj6.15866@edtnps89>, "ks" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Two words:
>>Riving Knife
>
>That's not part of the SawStop technology, though, nor is it in any way unique
>to that brand.
>

You're right there, but the way the patent office works these days, I
would not be surprised if someone was able to patent the rising &
falling riving knife.

Just imagine if someone like Selden came along 75 or 100 years ago and
patented the tablesaw.
--
No dumb questions, just dumb answers.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - [email protected]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=news&sid=aaomG4adRvHY

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 14:25:13 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I guess you have your TS chained sown so that it will not chase you down
>and cause you bodily harm.

It barks at me from time to time, but it's generally well behaved.

In article <[email protected]>,
J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
<...snipped...>
>He tried to get laws passed that would require his device on all saws.
>The government told him to go to Hell.


If he had hired Jack Abramhoff all new saws would be using it now.
--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore, Maryland - [email protected]