Mm

-MIKE-

01/05/2018 10:54 PM

Paging Leon and Other Domino Users!

The more tenon joinery I do the more I realize how tedious it all is and
how long it takes to set up and actually construct the joints.
I mean, from a woodworker's standpoint, the process is rewarding and
even therapeutic. That's part of the enjoyment we get from woodworking,
right?
But as a businessman, I'm not interested "enjoying the journey." I want
to enjoy the paycheck. Time is money and I don't want to waste either
when doing client work.

On my latest project I used a doweling jig that is *supposed* to center
the holes perfectly on the stock. However, no matter how careful I am
with it, it never seems to end up with two boards perfectly aligned to
one another. I always end up planing or sanding the get a perfectly
flush seem.

The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
$GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results perfect?
Does it result in perfectly flush alignment every time? Or is it still
a little wonky and you end us doing some sanding to make the joints flush?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com


This topic has 19 replies

Gs

"Gramps' shop"

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

03/05/2018 7:04 PM

Mike ... I got a bad case of Domino envy every time Leon posted pix of one=
of his projects. As a low volume hobbyist. I couldn=E2=80=99t justify the=
$$$. After lurking on the CL national boards, I found a used one for less=
than $400 IIRC. I use my cheapo shop vac. Was stunned when I had to shel=
l out $70 or so for The Festool hose. I don=E2=80=99t use it a lot, but it=
has been a great asset when I have needed it.

Ll

Leon

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 9:17 PM

On 5/2/2018 8:28 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/2/18 5:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> The joy of woodworking left me a long, long time ago. I stupidly
>> took the only hobby I had and decided to make a living at it since as
>> we have all heard, "if you find something you like to do to make a
>> living you never go to work a day in your life."
>>
>
> You pretty much just summed up my experience in the music business.
> Even though I've had some considerable success and have songs/albums
> I've played on on the Billboard charts, played on TV, played huge
> festivals in front of 10s of thousands of people, played arenas, etc.,
> it got to the point where "doing what I loved" was the most stressful
> part of my life.
>
>
>> For me, it's all about time, dollars, and logistics. I turn out the
>> best product I can within reason so that I will keep my referral
>> business strong.
>>
>> That being said, I've had the privilege of going through Leon's shop
>> as well as being able to study his projects and fine woodworking close
>> up. Even though I don't need the damn thing, I felt like I needed to
>> run out and buy a Domino machine after all the great
>> things I saw Leon do with it. I tried every way I could to justify
>> buying one, but my type woodwork just doesn't merit the purchase.
>>
>> If I built fixtures, cabinets, furniture, or any type of mix of the
>> three on a regular basis I would certainly buy one. After seeing
>> what Leon has done with his machine, it makes me realize that most of
>> the folks that I know that use them or the ones in my personal
>> circle that have them, actually use the tool to about 10% of its use.
>> It doesn't do just great joinery, Leon has found ways to display
>> decorative elements using the Dominos that are pretty unique.
>>
>> I think he has earned his money back on that tool many times over as
>> it is now an integral part of his design system when planning projects.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>
> For some of the projects I charge several hundred dollars for, I could
> knock off about 50% of the time it takes to build if I used the Domino.

I typically charge thousands... So when you step up your quality of
work because you can make strong joints quickly, you step up your game.
Other wise doing the joints the old fashioned way simply is a waste of time.
>
> It wouldn't take long to pay for it and then start increasing profit per
> project a lot.
>
> Of course, then I would want one of those f-n dust vacs!!
>

FWIW you DO NEED some kind of vac to remove the debris from the mortise.
And dust collection with a vac on the Domino is pretty much perfect.


BUT IIRC if you buy most any other tool with a Festool vac you get a
break in price. Verify before proceeding... ;~)

When I bought I did not have to justify, I just wanted one. After
getting it I found that I could build faster and better and I began
selling a lot more of my work. But I did have to step up my game for it
to actually pay for itself.

And that lead to all the other Festool tools that I purchased. I
honestly can say that all of my Festool tools have paid form themselves.

nn

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 3:59 PM

The joy of woodworking left me a long, long time ago. I stupidly took the o=
nly hobby I had and decided to make a living at it since as we have all hea=
rd, "if you find something you like to do to make a living you never go to =
work a day in your life."

For me, it's all about time, dollars, and logistics. I turn out the best pr=
oduct I can within reason so that I will keep my referral business strong.

That being said, I've had the privilege of going through Leon's shop as wel=
l as being able to study his projects and fine woodworking close up. Even t=
hough I don't need the damn thing, I felt like I needed to run out and buy =
a Domino machine after all the great things I saw Leon do with it. I tried =
every way I could to justify buying one, but my type woodwork just doesn't =
merit the purchase.

If I built fixtures, cabinets, furniture, or any type of mix of the three o=
n a regular basis I would certainly buy one. After seeing what Leon has don=
e with his machine, it makes me realize that most of the folks that I know =
that use them or the ones in my personal circle that have them, actually us=
e the tool to about 10% of its use. It doesn't do just great joinery, Leon =
has found ways to display decorative elements using the Dominos that are pr=
etty unique.

I think he has earned his money back on that tool many times over as it is =
now an integral part of his design system when planning projects.

Robert

rr

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 1:00 PM

On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:54:24 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>=20
> The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
> $GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results perfect?

Not to be nit picky, but just in case anyone is reading this who does not u=
nderstand what the Domino machine is. The Domino cuts MORTISES. It DOES N=
OT cut the tenons. You buy the premade loose tenons and slide into the MOR=
TISES that the Domino cut. Or you could make your own loose tenons with a =
table saw, router bit and planer. The Domino is used for joinery by cuttin=
g mortises in every piece of wood you want to join together. And then you =
join the wood pieces together by putting loose tenons into all the mortises=
cut by the Domino.

Dt

DerbyDad03

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 1:50 PM

On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 4:35:40 PM UTC-4, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/2/18 3:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:54:24 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>
> >> The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
> >> $GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results
> >> perfect?
> >
> > Not to be nit picky, but just in case anyone is reading this who does
> > not understand what the Domino machine is. The Domino cuts MORTISES.
> > It DOES NOT cut the tenons. You buy the premade loose tenons and
> > slide into the MORTISES that the Domino cut. Or you could make your
> > own loose tenons with a table saw, router bit and planer. The Domino
> > is used for joinery by cutting mortises in every piece of wood you
> > want to join together. And then you join the wood pieces together by
> > putting loose tenons into all the mortises cut by the Domino.
> >
>
> Not nit-picky at all. That's a very important distinction.
> Very busy and tedious day, yesterday, and I posted that quickly, after a
> couple of beers to relax. :-)
>
https://tinyurl.com/MrT-Lesson

Ll

Leon

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 3:36 PM

On 5/2/2018 2:03 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 5/2/18 1:22 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 5/1/2018 10:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> The more tenon joinery I do the more I realize how tedious it all is and
>>> how long it takes to set up and actually construct the joints.
>>> I mean, from a woodworker's standpoint, the process is rewarding and
>>> even therapeutic.  That's part of the enjoyment we get from woodworking,
>>> right?
>>> But as a businessman, I'm not interested "enjoying the journey."  I want
>>> to enjoy the paycheck.  Time is money and I don't want to waste either
>>> when doing client work.
>>
>> Exactly
>>
>>
>>>
>>> On my latest project I used a doweling jig that is *supposed* to center
>>> the holes perfectly on the stock.  However, no matter how careful I am
>>> with it, it never seems to end up with two boards perfectly aligned to
>>> one another.  I always end up planing or sanding the get a perfectly
>>> flush seem.
>>>
>>> The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
>>> $GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results perfect?
>>> Does it result in perfectly flush alignment every time?  Or is it still
>>> a little wonky and you end us doing some sanding to make the joints
>>> flush?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Are results perfect? Probably not perfect, but better than any method
>> I have used in the past.  The Domino basically works like a plate
>> joiner/biscuit cutter.  BUT the Domino is built to last and much more
>> exacting standards.
>>
>> Because the machine is portable it will depend on you if you use the
>> correct technique to cut mortises.  Like anything else really.  If you
>> pay attention and use the machine correctly yo will get great results.
>>
>> Things to insure better results.
>>
>> ALWAYS use the fence to reference off of the work's surface.  I have
>> seen the Domino being used with the bottom of the machine as the
>> reference.  Because debris can get under the work or the machine this
>> can throw alignment off.  When using the fence you have a clear view
>> to insure that no debris will throw off alignment.
>>
>> A warped, non perfectly flat board being mated to dissimilar board
>> will introduce a problem regardless of what machine you are using.
>>
>> BUT using the Domino fence to reference on a warped board is still
>> better than cutting the mortise on the same board using the bottom of
>> the Domino as a reference.
>>
>> There are indexing pins on the Domino ,to reference mating mortises, I
>> never use them for that purpose.  I simply elongate the mating mortise
>> to give myself wiggle room.
>>
>> If you get the Domino you will likely use it for much more you are
>> thinking now.  I did, some 10,000+ mortises later.
>>
>
> One of the guys at Woodcraft said the same thing about cupped boards.
> He said that's the only time it's ever *not* dead-on.
>
>
>


Forgot to mention, no risk, 30 day return policy.

Ll

Leon

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

03/05/2018 2:15 PM

On 5/3/2018 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote:
Snip


>
> I have always wondered, as an adult, if my dad was secretly proud of
> my for having the gumption to cut those boards, and nail them together
> for the treehouse. :)
>

Well heck yeah, BUT if like mine he would never admit it. LOL

My dad worked for Western Electric, back in the early 50's.
In our old store room in the early 60's, like every male youngster, I
was into giant ball bearings, and giant magnets.
Dad had an old crank telephone where the mouth piece hinged on the big
wooden box. That crank sent an electrical charge through the lines to
get the operator. There were 4 or 5 giant horseshoe shaped magnets in
that thing and they were coming out! It was a difficult task and I was
successful but that old telephone would never be the same, nor was my
butt. ;~O

Ll

Leon

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 1:22 PM

On 5/1/2018 10:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> The more tenon joinery I do the more I realize how tedious it all is and
> how long it takes to set up and actually construct the joints.
> I mean, from a woodworker's standpoint, the process is rewarding and
> even therapeutic.  That's part of the enjoyment we get from woodworking,
> right?
> But as a businessman, I'm not interested "enjoying the journey."  I want
> to enjoy the paycheck.  Time is money and I don't want to waste either
> when doing client work.

Exactly


>
> On my latest project I used a doweling jig that is *supposed* to center
> the holes perfectly on the stock.  However, no matter how careful I am
> with it, it never seems to end up with two boards perfectly aligned to
> one another.  I always end up planing or sanding the get a perfectly
> flush seem.
>
> The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
> $GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results perfect?
> Does it result in perfectly flush alignment every time?  Or is it still
> a little wonky and you end us doing some sanding to make the joints flush?
>
>

Are results perfect? Probably not perfect, but better than any method I
have used in the past. The Domino basically works like a plate
joiner/biscuit cutter. BUT the Domino is built to last and much more
exacting standards.

Because the machine is portable it will depend on you if you use the
correct technique to cut mortises. Like anything else really. If you
pay attention and use the machine correctly yo will get great results.

Things to insure better results.

ALWAYS use the fence to reference off of the work's surface. I have
seen the Domino being used with the bottom of the machine as the
reference. Because debris can get under the work or the machine this
can throw alignment off. When using the fence you have a clear view to
insure that no debris will throw off alignment.

A warped, non perfectly flat board being mated to dissimilar board will
introduce a problem regardless of what machine you are using.

BUT using the Domino fence to reference on a warped board is still
better than cutting the mortise on the same board using the bottom of
the Domino as a reference.

There are indexing pins on the Domino ,to reference mating mortises, I
never use them for that purpose. I simply elongate the mating mortise
to give myself wiggle room.

If you get the Domino you will likely use it for much more you are
thinking now. I did, some 10,000+ mortises later.


Oo

OFWW

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

03/05/2018 1:57 PM

On Thu, 3 May 2018 14:15:27 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

>On 5/3/2018 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote:
>Snip
>
>
>>
>> I have always wondered, as an adult, if my dad was secretly proud of
>> my for having the gumption to cut those boards, and nail them together
>> for the treehouse. :)
>>
>
>Well heck yeah, BUT if like mine he would never admit it. LOL
>
>My dad worked for Western Electric, back in the early 50's.
>In our old store room in the early 60's, like every male youngster, I
>was into giant ball bearings, and giant magnets.
> Dad had an old crank telephone where the mouth piece hinged on the big
>wooden box. That crank sent an electrical charge through the lines to
>get the operator. There were 4 or 5 giant horseshoe shaped magnets in
>that thing and they were coming out! It was a difficult task and I was
>successful but that old telephone would never be the same, nor was my
>butt. ;~O
ROTFL Great story.

Oo

OFWW

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

03/05/2018 12:02 AM

On Wed, 2 May 2018 21:35:05 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 5/2/18 9:17 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 5/2/2018 8:28 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 5/2/18 5:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> The joy of woodworking left me a long, long time ago. I stupidly
>>>> took the only hobby I had and decided to make a living at it since as
>>>> we have all heard, "if you find something you like to do to make a
>>>> living you never go to work a day in your life."
>>>>
>>>
>>> You pretty much just summed up my experience in the music business.
>>> Even though I've had some considerable success and have songs/albums
>>> I've played on on the Billboard charts, played on TV, played huge
>>> festivals in front of 10s of thousands of people, played arenas, etc.,
>>> it got to the point where "doing what I loved" was the most stressful
>>> part of my life.
>>>
>>>
>>>> For me, it's all about time, dollars, and logistics. I turn out the
>>>> best product I can within reason so that I will keep my referral
>>>> business strong.
>>>>
>>>> That being said, I've had the privilege of going through Leon's shop
>>>> as well as being able to study his projects and fine woodworking
>>>> close up. Even though I don't need the damn thing, I felt like I
>>>> needed to run out and buy a Domino machine after all the great
>>>> things I saw Leon do with it. I tried every way I could to justify
>>>> buying one, but my type woodwork just doesn't merit the purchase.
>>>>
>>>> If I built fixtures, cabinets, furniture, or any type of mix of the
>>>> three on a regular basis I would certainly buy one. After seeing
>>>> what Leon has done with his machine, it makes me realize that most of
>>>> the folks that I know that use them or the ones in my personal
>>>> circle that have them, actually use the tool to about 10% of its use.
>>>> It doesn't do just great joinery, Leon has found ways to display
>>>> decorative elements using the Dominos that are pretty unique.
>>>>
>>>> I think he has earned his money back on that tool many times over as
>>>> it is now an integral part of his design system when planning projects.
>>>>
>>>> Robert
>>>>
>>>
>>> For some of the projects I charge several hundred dollars for, I could
>>> knock off about 50% of the time it takes to build if I used the Domino.
>>
>> I typically charge thousands...  So when you step up your quality of
>> work because you can make strong joints quickly, you step up your game.
>> Other wise doing the joints the old fashioned way simply is a waste of
>> time.
>
>Well, yeah... my bookcases and other built-ins get into the thousands.
>I was myopically thinking of the smaller projects I've doing as of late.
>
>
>>>
>>> It wouldn't take long to pay for it and then start increasing profit per
>>> project a lot.
>>>
>>> Of course, then I would want one of those f-n dust vacs!!
>>>
>>
>> FWIW you DO NEED some kind of vac to remove the debris from the mortise.
>> And dust collection with a vac on the Domino is pretty much perfect.
>>
>>
>> BUT IIRC if you buy most any other tool with a Festool vac you get a
>> break in price.  Verify before proceeding... ;~)
>>
>> When I bought I did not have to justify, I just wanted one.  After
>> getting it I found that I could build faster and better and I began
>> selling a lot more of my work.  But I did have to step up my game for it
>> to actually pay for itself.
>>
>> And that lead to all the other Festool tools that I purchased.  I
>> honestly can say that all of my Festool tools have paid form themselves.
>>
>
>I'll probably be back in here saying the same thing sooner or later.
>:-)

Hopefully.

Mike, my standpoint is from a low volume, basically one off type of
thing. I am retired, and am doing what I do because I can, and I have
always enjoyed woodworking from when I was a kid of 6, and used my
dads stock of hardwood for a flooring project, in a tree house/fort I
built. Needless to say, it didn't go over too well when my dad
realized how I did it. :)

But from a business standpoint, and looking at it in that format, I
always would buy the best tools, for the sake of convenience,
reliability, time saving, etc. Since tools make my livelihood much
easier, and over the long haul it has always been a payback. Plus, all
the tools for by chosen trade were tax deductible and in some cases a
determined need by the feds.

In Calif, a festool vacuum with a good hepa filtration system can be a
good thing with the customer and the reasoning for its use could be a
sales factor when one has to work in a business of a home.

I have always wondered, as an adult, if my dad was secretly proud of
my for having the gumption to cut those boards, and nail them together
for the treehouse. :)

Oo

OFWW

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 1:58 PM

On Tue, 1 May 2018 22:54:19 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The more tenon joinery I do the more I realize how tedious it all is and
>how long it takes to set up and actually construct the joints.
>I mean, from a woodworker's standpoint, the process is rewarding and
>even therapeutic. That's part of the enjoyment we get from woodworking,
>right?
>But as a businessman, I'm not interested "enjoying the journey." I want
>to enjoy the paycheck. Time is money and I don't want to waste either
>when doing client work.
>
>On my latest project I used a doweling jig that is *supposed* to center
>the holes perfectly on the stock. However, no matter how careful I am
>with it, it never seems to end up with two boards perfectly aligned to
>one another. I always end up planing or sanding the get a perfectly
>flush seem.
>
>The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
>$GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results perfect?
>Does it result in perfectly flush alignment every time? Or is it still
>a little wonky and you end us doing some sanding to make the joints flush?

I just recently watched a video, below, that was on dowel joinery. It
used a Rockler jig kit, below.

http://www.rockler.com/doweling-jig-kits

https://www.woodsmithvideoedition.com/editions/236/dowel-joinery-doors/

I thought about this, knowing the alignment problems you discussed,
and thought about it all because of a new one time doweling jig tool
of high price which has the same malady as most other dowel jig tools,
that being that they do their best to center it on the boards you are
using.

Well, duh, not all 3/4 boards are the same in every respect. So I did
some thinking on this.

The Rockler jigs do not "center" the dowels, the put it "X/x" of an
inch from the edge. and you buy a 1/4", 3/8",and 1/2" jig specifically
for the dowel. The markings for alignment are the easiest of any to
see as you are looking through a stable Plexiglas piece that you clamp
to the board. And while it is designed for two dowels it is easy to
modify it for three or four dowels, the video shows that.

The only thing one has to remember is to use it on the same side for
all pieces. Say like for a FF, mark only the backside of each piece,
or the face side. Then depending on dowel slop, you might want to use
a spring clamp or similar at each joint to be sure the pieces stay as
aligned as possible.

No matter how one looks at it, it sure is better than messing with
mortise machine.

YMMV

Mm

-MIKE-

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 2:03 PM

On 5/2/18 1:22 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 5/1/2018 10:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> The more tenon joinery I do the more I realize how tedious it all is and
>> how long it takes to set up and actually construct the joints.
>> I mean, from a woodworker's standpoint, the process is rewarding and
>> even therapeutic.  That's part of the enjoyment we get from woodworking,
>> right?
>> But as a businessman, I'm not interested "enjoying the journey."  I want
>> to enjoy the paycheck.  Time is money and I don't want to waste either
>> when doing client work.
>
> Exactly
>
>
>>
>> On my latest project I used a doweling jig that is *supposed* to center
>> the holes perfectly on the stock.  However, no matter how careful I am
>> with it, it never seems to end up with two boards perfectly aligned to
>> one another.  I always end up planing or sanding the get a perfectly
>> flush seem.
>>
>> The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
>> $GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results perfect?
>> Does it result in perfectly flush alignment every time?  Or is it still
>> a little wonky and you end us doing some sanding to make the joints
>> flush?
>>
>>
>
> Are results perfect? Probably not perfect, but better than any method I
> have used in the past.  The Domino basically works like a plate
> joiner/biscuit cutter.  BUT the Domino is built to last and much more
> exacting standards.
>
> Because the machine is portable it will depend on you if you use the
> correct technique to cut mortises.  Like anything else really.  If you
> pay attention and use the machine correctly yo will get great results.
>
> Things to insure better results.
>
> ALWAYS use the fence to reference off of the work's surface.  I have
> seen the Domino being used with the bottom of the machine as the
> reference.  Because debris can get under the work or the machine this
> can throw alignment off.  When using the fence you have a clear view to
> insure that no debris will throw off alignment.
>
> A warped, non perfectly flat board being mated to dissimilar board will
> introduce a problem regardless of what machine you are using.
>
> BUT using the Domino fence to reference on a warped board is still
> better than cutting the mortise on the same board using the bottom of
> the Domino as a reference.
>
> There are indexing pins on the Domino ,to reference mating mortises, I
> never use them for that purpose.  I simply elongate the mating mortise
> to give myself wiggle room.
>
> If you get the Domino you will likely use it for much more you are
> thinking now.  I did, some 10,000+ mortises later.
>

One of the guys at Woodcraft said the same thing about cupped boards.
He said that's the only time it's ever *not* dead-on.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

Mm

-MIKE-

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 3:35 PM

On 5/2/18 3:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:54:24 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>> The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
>> $GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results
>> perfect?
>
> Not to be nit picky, but just in case anyone is reading this who does
> not understand what the Domino machine is. The Domino cuts MORTISES.
> It DOES NOT cut the tenons. You buy the premade loose tenons and
> slide into the MORTISES that the Domino cut. Or you could make your
> own loose tenons with a table saw, router bit and planer. The Domino
> is used for joinery by cutting mortises in every piece of wood you
> want to join together. And then you join the wood pieces together by
> putting loose tenons into all the mortises cut by the Domino.
>

Not nit-picky at all. That's a very important distinction.
Very busy and tedious day, yesterday, and I posted that quickly, after a
couple of beers to relax. :-)

Thanks for the clarification-- there *is* a big difference.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

Mm

-MIKE-

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 4:50 PM

On 5/2/18 3:50 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 4:35:40 PM UTC-4, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/2/18 3:00 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 1, 2018 at 10:54:24 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
>>>> $GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results
>>>> perfect?
>>>
>>> Not to be nit picky, but just in case anyone is reading this who does
>>> not understand what the Domino machine is. The Domino cuts MORTISES.
>>> It DOES NOT cut the tenons. You buy the premade loose tenons and
>>> slide into the MORTISES that the Domino cut. Or you could make your
>>> own loose tenons with a table saw, router bit and planer. The Domino
>>> is used for joinery by cutting mortises in every piece of wood you
>>> want to join together. And then you join the wood pieces together by
>>> putting loose tenons into all the mortises cut by the Domino.
>>>
>>
>> Not nit-picky at all. That's a very important distinction.
>> Very busy and tedious day, yesterday, and I posted that quickly, after a
>> couple of beers to relax. :-)
>>
> https://tinyurl.com/MrT-Lesson
>

+10!!

LMAO!!

I pity the foo who drinks and posts!

--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

Mm

-MIKE-

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 8:20 PM

On 5/2/18 3:58 PM, OFWW wrote:
> On Tue, 1 May 2018 22:54:19 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> The more tenon joinery I do the more I realize how tedious it all is and
>> how long it takes to set up and actually construct the joints.
>> I mean, from a woodworker's standpoint, the process is rewarding and
>> even therapeutic. That's part of the enjoyment we get from woodworking,
>> right?
>> But as a businessman, I'm not interested "enjoying the journey." I want
>> to enjoy the paycheck. Time is money and I don't want to waste either
>> when doing client work.
>>
>> On my latest project I used a doweling jig that is *supposed* to center
>> the holes perfectly on the stock. However, no matter how careful I am
>> with it, it never seems to end up with two boards perfectly aligned to
>> one another. I always end up planing or sanding the get a perfectly
>> flush seem.
>>
>> The question I need answered before I ever consider forking over a
>> $GRAND$ for a uni-tasking tenon cutter is, are the results perfect?
>> Does it result in perfectly flush alignment every time? Or is it still
>> a little wonky and you end us doing some sanding to make the joints flush?
>
> I just recently watched a video, below, that was on dowel joinery. It
> used a Rockler jig kit, below.
>
> http://www.rockler.com/doweling-jig-kits
>
> https://www.woodsmithvideoedition.com/editions/236/dowel-joinery-doors/
>
> I thought about this, knowing the alignment problems you discussed,
> and thought about it all because of a new one time doweling jig tool
> of high price which has the same malady as most other dowel jig tools,
> that being that they do their best to center it on the boards you are
> using.
>
> Well, duh, not all 3/4 boards are the same in every respect. So I did
> some thinking on this.
>
> The Rockler jigs do not "center" the dowels, the put it "X/x" of an
> inch from the edge. and you buy a 1/4", 3/8",and 1/2" jig specifically
> for the dowel. The markings for alignment are the easiest of any to
> see as you are looking through a stable Plexiglas piece that you clamp
> to the board. And while it is designed for two dowels it is easy to
> modify it for three or four dowels, the video shows that.
>
> The only thing one has to remember is to use it on the same side for
> all pieces. Say like for a FF, mark only the backside of each piece,
> or the face side. Then depending on dowel slop, you might want to use
> a spring clamp or similar at each joint to be sure the pieces stay as
> aligned as possible.
>
> No matter how one looks at it, it sure is better than messing with
> mortise machine.
>
> YMMV
>

For sure on the mortiser, but I don't think it would be any faster than
what I have now.



--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

Mm

-MIKE-

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 8:28 PM

On 5/2/18 5:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> The joy of woodworking left me a long, long time ago. I stupidly
> took the only hobby I had and decided to make a living at it since as
> we have all heard, "if you find something you like to do to make a
> living you never go to work a day in your life."
>

You pretty much just summed up my experience in the music business.
Even though I've had some considerable success and have songs/albums
I've played on on the Billboard charts, played on TV, played huge
festivals in front of 10s of thousands of people, played arenas, etc.,
it got to the point where "doing what I loved" was the most stressful
part of my life.


> For me, it's all about time, dollars, and logistics. I turn out the
> best product I can within reason so that I will keep my referral
> business strong.
>
> That being said, I've had the privilege of going through Leon's shop
> as well as being able to study his projects and fine woodworking
> close up. Even though I don't need the damn thing, I felt like I
> needed to run out and buy a Domino machine after all the great
> things I saw Leon do with it. I tried every way I could to justify
> buying one, but my type woodwork just doesn't merit the purchase.
>
> If I built fixtures, cabinets, furniture, or any type of mix of the
> three on a regular basis I would certainly buy one. After seeing
> what Leon has done with his machine, it makes me realize that most of
> the folks that I know that use them or the ones in my personal
> circle that have them, actually use the tool to about 10% of its use.
> It doesn't do just great joinery, Leon has found ways to display
> decorative elements using the Dominos that are pretty unique.
>
> I think he has earned his money back on that tool many times over as
> it is now an integral part of his design system when planning
> projects.
>
> Robert
>

For some of the projects I charge several hundred dollars for, I could
knock off about 50% of the time it takes to build if I used the Domino.

It wouldn't take long to pay for it and then start increasing profit per
project a lot.

Of course, then I would want one of those f-n dust vacs!!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

Mm

-MIKE-

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

02/05/2018 9:35 PM

On 5/2/18 9:17 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 5/2/2018 8:28 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 5/2/18 5:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> The joy of woodworking left me a long, long time ago. I stupidly
>>> took the only hobby I had and decided to make a living at it since as
>>> we have all heard, "if you find something you like to do to make a
>>> living you never go to work a day in your life."
>>>
>>
>> You pretty much just summed up my experience in the music business.
>> Even though I've had some considerable success and have songs/albums
>> I've played on on the Billboard charts, played on TV, played huge
>> festivals in front of 10s of thousands of people, played arenas, etc.,
>> it got to the point where "doing what I loved" was the most stressful
>> part of my life.
>>
>>
>>> For me, it's all about time, dollars, and logistics. I turn out the
>>> best product I can within reason so that I will keep my referral
>>> business strong.
>>>
>>> That being said, I've had the privilege of going through Leon's shop
>>> as well as being able to study his projects and fine woodworking
>>> close up. Even though I don't need the damn thing, I felt like I
>>> needed to run out and buy a Domino machine after all the great
>>> things I saw Leon do with it. I tried every way I could to justify
>>> buying one, but my type woodwork just doesn't merit the purchase.
>>>
>>> If I built fixtures, cabinets, furniture, or any type of mix of the
>>> three on a regular basis I would certainly buy one. After seeing
>>> what Leon has done with his machine, it makes me realize that most of
>>> the folks that I know that use them or the ones in my personal
>>> circle that have them, actually use the tool to about 10% of its use.
>>> It doesn't do just great joinery, Leon has found ways to display
>>> decorative elements using the Dominos that are pretty unique.
>>>
>>> I think he has earned his money back on that tool many times over as
>>> it is now an integral part of his design system when planning projects.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>
>> For some of the projects I charge several hundred dollars for, I could
>> knock off about 50% of the time it takes to build if I used the Domino.
>
> I typically charge thousands...  So when you step up your quality of
> work because you can make strong joints quickly, you step up your game.
> Other wise doing the joints the old fashioned way simply is a waste of
> time.

Well, yeah... my bookcases and other built-ins get into the thousands.
I was myopically thinking of the smaller projects I've doing as of late.


>>
>> It wouldn't take long to pay for it and then start increasing profit per
>> project a lot.
>>
>> Of course, then I would want one of those f-n dust vacs!!
>>
>
> FWIW you DO NEED some kind of vac to remove the debris from the mortise.
> And dust collection with a vac on the Domino is pretty much perfect.
>
>
> BUT IIRC if you buy most any other tool with a Festool vac you get a
> break in price.  Verify before proceeding... ;~)
>
> When I bought I did not have to justify, I just wanted one.  After
> getting it I found that I could build faster and better and I began
> selling a lot more of my work.  But I did have to step up my game for it
> to actually pay for itself.
>
> And that lead to all the other Festool tools that I purchased.  I
> honestly can say that all of my Festool tools have paid form themselves.
>

I'll probably be back in here saying the same thing sooner or later.
:-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

Mm

-MIKE-

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

03/05/2018 9:49 AM

On 5/3/18 2:02 AM, OFWW wrote:
> On Wed, 2 May 2018 21:35:05 -0500, -MIKE- <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On 5/2/18 9:17 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 5/2/2018 8:28 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 5/2/18 5:59 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> The joy of woodworking left me a long, long time ago. I stupidly
>>>>> took the only hobby I had and decided to make a living at it since as
>>>>> we have all heard, "if you find something you like to do to make a
>>>>> living you never go to work a day in your life."
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You pretty much just summed up my experience in the music business.
>>>> Even though I've had some considerable success and have songs/albums
>>>> I've played on on the Billboard charts, played on TV, played huge
>>>> festivals in front of 10s of thousands of people, played arenas, etc.,
>>>> it got to the point where "doing what I loved" was the most stressful
>>>> part of my life.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> For me, it's all about time, dollars, and logistics. I turn out the
>>>>> best product I can within reason so that I will keep my referral
>>>>> business strong.
>>>>>
>>>>> That being said, I've had the privilege of going through Leon's shop
>>>>> as well as being able to study his projects and fine woodworking
>>>>> close up. Even though I don't need the damn thing, I felt like I
>>>>> needed to run out and buy a Domino machine after all the great
>>>>> things I saw Leon do with it. I tried every way I could to justify
>>>>> buying one, but my type woodwork just doesn't merit the purchase.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I built fixtures, cabinets, furniture, or any type of mix of the
>>>>> three on a regular basis I would certainly buy one. After seeing
>>>>> what Leon has done with his machine, it makes me realize that most of
>>>>> the folks that I know that use them or the ones in my personal
>>>>> circle that have them, actually use the tool to about 10% of its use.
>>>>> It doesn't do just great joinery, Leon has found ways to display
>>>>> decorative elements using the Dominos that are pretty unique.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think he has earned his money back on that tool many times over as
>>>>> it is now an integral part of his design system when planning projects.
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For some of the projects I charge several hundred dollars for, I could
>>>> knock off about 50% of the time it takes to build if I used the Domino.
>>>
>>> I typically charge thousands...  So when you step up your quality of
>>> work because you can make strong joints quickly, you step up your game.
>>> Other wise doing the joints the old fashioned way simply is a waste of
>>> time.
>>
>> Well, yeah... my bookcases and other built-ins get into the thousands.
>> I was myopically thinking of the smaller projects I've doing as of late.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> It wouldn't take long to pay for it and then start increasing profit per
>>>> project a lot.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, then I would want one of those f-n dust vacs!!
>>>>
>>>
>>> FWIW you DO NEED some kind of vac to remove the debris from the mortise.
>>> And dust collection with a vac on the Domino is pretty much perfect.
>>>
>>>
>>> BUT IIRC if you buy most any other tool with a Festool vac you get a
>>> break in price.  Verify before proceeding... ;~)
>>>
>>> When I bought I did not have to justify, I just wanted one.  After
>>> getting it I found that I could build faster and better and I began
>>> selling a lot more of my work.  But I did have to step up my game for it
>>> to actually pay for itself.
>>>
>>> And that lead to all the other Festool tools that I purchased.  I
>>> honestly can say that all of my Festool tools have paid form themselves.
>>>
>>
>> I'll probably be back in here saying the same thing sooner or later.
>> :-)
>
> Hopefully.
>
> Mike, my standpoint is from a low volume, basically one off type of
> thing. I am retired, and am doing what I do because I can, and I have
> always enjoyed woodworking from when I was a kid of 6, and used my
> dads stock of hardwood for a flooring project, in a tree house/fort I
> built. Needless to say, it didn't go over too well when my dad
> realized how I did it. :)
>
> But from a business standpoint, and looking at it in that format, I
> always would buy the best tools, for the sake of convenience,
> reliability, time saving, etc. Since tools make my livelihood much
> easier, and over the long haul it has always been a payback. Plus, all
> the tools for by chosen trade were tax deductible and in some cases a
> determined need by the feds.
>
> In Calif, a festool vacuum with a good hepa filtration system can be a
> good thing with the customer and the reasoning for its use could be a
> sales factor when one has to work in a business of a home.
>
> I have always wondered, as an adult, if my dad was secretly proud of
> my for having the gumption to cut those boards, and nail them together
> for the treehouse. :)
>

As to your last point... yes, he was. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

Mm

-MIKE-

in reply to -MIKE- on 01/05/2018 10:54 PM

03/05/2018 10:16 PM

On 5/3/18 9:04 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
> Mike ... I got a bad case of Domino envy every time Leon posted pix
> of one of his projects. As a low volume hobbyist. I couldn’t justify
> the $$$. After lurking on the CL national boards, I found a used one
> for less than $400 IIRC. I use my cheapo shop vac. Was stunned when
> I had to shell out $70 or so for The Festool hose. I don’t use it a
> lot, but it has been a great asset when I have needed it.
>

Maybe I'll check craigslist national and ebay.
I'm on their re-manufactured email list, but you have to be fast!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com


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