We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are
considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the
looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
used on some factory built buildings.
The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will
also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber
panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
Any Experience?
RonB
"RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:24fb9f2c-34a1-4a2a-8610-000b24b2dbb9@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
> yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are
> considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the
> looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
> used on some factory built buildings.
>
> The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
> a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will
> also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber
> panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
> I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
> after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
>
> Any Experience?
>
> RonB
Absolutely will hold up. Like most cement or brick prioducts Hardi products
are porus and do not fit together tightly enough to prevent water from
blowing in through the bottom of the panels or joints. The moisture barrier
is to protect the contents not the siding.
I have used the Hardi "planks" on my home and on my shed. I strongly
suggest you do some cross bracing of the walls and not rely on the Hardi or
any product of similar nature to ad structural strength of your shed. Hardi
prioducts are a strong siding that lasts many years but if the wall wiggles
the fantener holes in the product will wollow out. Use this type siding to
keep the elements out and not to add strength to the structure.
On Oct 4, 5:16=A0pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10/4/10 4:00 PM, RicodJour wrote:
>
> > I would not use Hardi without sheathing.
>
> Why? =A0Unless the stuff has drastically changed in 10 years, you don't
> need to be over sheathing for a shed.
While the 2009 IRC does allow direct attachement, I rarely ignore the
manufacturer's instructions. Whether it's a house or a shed, if it
fails it ain't good.
> The stuff on my shed is about the thickness and strength of 1/4 plywood,
> probably a bit stronger and *definitely* much more stable than plywood
> or OSB sheathing.
Shed walls generally take more abuse than a house's walls, stuff is
banged up against the walls, etc. Wind and other natural acts
(unnatural acts...?) don't differentiate between a residence and a
storage building. They're equal opportunity destroyers. That's not
necessarily a big problem, depending on where the shed is, and it can
be dealt with by installing let-in bracing (old school, but fast
enough and it looks really cool), or by using metal strapping on the
diagonal in the corners. Like this (bottom left corner):
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/images/ICODA2009061607403503=
389.jpg
But as Ron didn't mention where he is, it would be foolish to sell him
on an idea that might not work in his area.
You are speaking from a "But that's how I did it and it's fine!" view
point. I'm not arguing your personal experience, but standard
construction, and particularly the manufacturer's instructions,
probably shouldn't be ignored for little reason. I've seen more than
a few fiber cement installations that suffered from elephantiasis due
to inattention to detail. Frankly I'm surprised that your shed has
held up without paint (also no caulk?), as required by the
manufacturer, for so long. Perhaps you're one of the lucky ones, but
I tend to doubt if you hit 00 on the roulette wheel that you'd tell
everyone to bet 00 every time, right?
Ron also said he liked the looks of T1-11, so I'd think that should
count for something, no? Plywood siding goes up faster, is cheaper,
structurally stronger and looks just fine. So where's the problem?
R
> We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
> yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are
> considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the
> looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
> used on some factory built buildings.
>
> The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
> a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will
> also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber
> panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
> I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
> after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
>
> Any Experience?
>
> RonB
If this shed will see the kind of abuse mine does I'd use sheathing... it
will prevent busting the siding if there are errant impacts from the inside.
From my experience with the siding, I think it would hold up to moderate
impacts from the outside because the studs would support it pretty well if
on 16" centers.
Since there is no insulation or heat or interior drywall the moisture
barrier could probably be ignored... there would be some risk of wind driven
rain penetration at joints but with the 1 1/4" lap leaks at the laps would
be minimal. It will dry...
John
On Oct 5, 9:05=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Sonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Whichever siding you use, I would recommend installing a moisture
> barrier. =A0Two rolls of felt won't break you. =A0Also, build it with
> walls at least 10' high, i.e., for some attic space. =A0Exterior
> sheeting is 8', so put a 2' skirt at the bottom, with a drip edge
> between the skirt and the higher full sheet/panel... see pic. =A0If the
> bottom ever rots or gets damaged, all you'll have to replace is the
> bottom skirt section.... not have to mess with a full sheet/panel. =A0If
> applicable, cut the skirt upper and lower edges at 30=B0, as with the
> lower edge of the upper full sheet. =A0Screw the skirt onto the framing,
> easier to remove, if need be. =A0One of my garages has had untreated
> T1-11 for 20 yrs.... still in good shape. =A0Prior to installing the
> skirt, I primed and painted the 30=B0 cuts and about 10" (a paint roller
> width) up the back side. =A03/4" nap roller for the rough T1-11, hand
> brush it smooth... goes faster than you think. =A0Caulk the butting
> edges of each sheet. =A0Caulk the seams/joints of your drip edge/
> sheeting.
>
> The bottom edge of the skirt, cut at 30=B0, doesn't allow water wicking
> across an otherwise flat bottom and up the back side. =A0A 12"
> galvanized strip, behind the skirt and slightly lower than the bottom
> edge, will help keep out any moisture, also... but I'm not sure of
> your foundation for warranting this gal. strip.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/4733385477/
> ....Detailed pics can be readily gotten, if need be.
>
> Gotta agree with using a moisture barier to keep the contents dry. =A0My =
shed
> went through Hurricane Ike a bouple of years ago and not a drop of water
> came in. =A0I did however use the more expensive Tyvek sheathing over tar
> paper. =A0I used the Tyvek over tar paper for two reasons, I did not want=
to
> smell the tar smell inside the shed on a hot summer day and the Tyvek is
> white not black, that helps the interior to be lighter inside when the do=
or
> is the only source of light.
Well, you certainly know what you're doing, Leon. Excellent advice.
R
On 10/05/2010 02:25 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> In article<24fb9f2c-34a1-4a2a-8610-000b24b2dbb9
> @j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>>
>> We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
>> yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are
>> considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the
>> looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
>> used on some factory built buildings.
>
> Is the siding going to be in ground contact? If not you don't need
> pressure treated. Paint all exposed surfaces (that's top, bottom,
> edges, and outward-face) before you put it up, use proper Z-flashing
> properly gapped along the top, and keep it painted and it should last
> longer than you will.
>
>> The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
>> a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will
>> also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber
>> panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
>> I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
>> after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
>
> The moisture barrier is not there to protect the hardi-panel, it's there
> to protect the structure behind it. Hardi-panel is much like concrete--
> it can hold and pass a remarkable amount of water. Having structure in
> contact with it with no moisture barrier can result in the edge of the
> structure in contact with the hardi-panel being kept damp and rotting.
> Since it's covered by the hardi-panel you won't be able to tell by
> inspection that it's rotting and your first notice may be when the shed
> falls down.
>
> Note that you can combine hardi-plank and t1-11 to good effect--if the
> shed sits on grade the lower edge of the t1-11 will be closer to the
> ground than is desirable--keep it painted and it will be fine but you
> have to keep on top of it. If instead you put a foot or so of hardi-
> plank at the bottom with aluminum flashing behind it, then a z-flashing
> and t1-11 above, you'll end up with a pretty durable installation that
> doesn't need much maintenance.
>
>
>> Any Experience?
>>
>> RonB
>
>
Home Desperate has 4 x 8 Hardi panels - looks just like T111.
On Oct 5, 2:28=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
OK... me first.
On Oct 5, 1:03 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> That is why on a shed or an open shop we just use 15# or 30# felt.
> Works great, and cheap, too.
>
> Robert
> Your above is why I use "vent skin" construction on a house finished
> with siding products, particularly in our "hot, humid climate" building
> zone.
I said shed or an open shop, you said house. On a house, I use the
paper/Tyvek combo.
I was trying to keep in context in my post.
Naww..... just messin' with you.
> By layer, as follows: sheathing; 30# felt (or tyvek); vertical 1x4's @
> 16" OC installed thru/to soffit/attic floor; siding nailed to 1x4's.
A reluctant SNIP of really good stuff...
> An excellent construction method where high wind and rain is expected.
Excellent, indeed. That really sounds like the stuff, there. I have
heard of similar installation processes, but *never* that detailed or
well thought out.
Is that a KarlCo =A9 original detail? If so, it's a keeper. I am going
to bookmark that one for future reference. Every once in a while we
replace wood siding on a heavy sun facing with Hardie, and that really
seems like the detail we need on a house.
Impressive. No kidding. I have been thinking that over for a couple
of hours. Impressive...
As one of my colleagues likes to say, "I think I'll put that one in my
pocket and take it with me."
Have you gotten any feedback from the clients where you have followed
this detail about siding movement or heat transfer?
My BIGGEST problem is movement, mainly shrinkage. We have used that
crap recommended by Hardie call "Big Stretch", and that was the worst
latex elastomeric crap I have ever used. Made it two seasons on the
sun side of the house without tearing. I never have any bulging
joints (I only buy from a yard that properly stores the planking) but
I always have some shrinkage. I push them up tight, and they still
shrink as much about 1/8" during the droughts, but close back up when
the rainy season starts. (You know, also known as winter around
here.)
Priming the backside has mitigated that a bit, but certainly not
eliminated it.
Any thoughts on that, whilst on this topic?
Robert
On Oct 4, 6:47 pm, -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10/4/10 5:04 PM, RicodJour wrote:
>
> > Shed walls generally take more abuse than a house's walls, stuff is
> > banged up against the walls, etc. Wind and other natural acts
> > (unnatural acts...?) don't differentiate between a residence and a
> > storage building. They're equal opportunity destroyers. That's not
> > necessarily a big problem, depending on where the shed is, and it can
> > be dealt with by installing let-in bracing (old school, but fast
> > enough and it looks really cool), or by using metal strapping on the
> > diagonal in the corners. Like this (bottom left corner):
> >http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/images/ICODA2009061607...
> > But as Ron didn't mention where he is, it would be foolish to sell him
> > on an idea that might not work in his area.
>
> I think you're trying way over engineer a shed.
> Everything I've seen on their site speaks about residential
> construction, not a storage shed.
As I mentioned, loads and the elements don't differentiate between a
shed and any other structure, so why do you? I don't build to minimum
anything. Life's too short to work with crappy tools, do crappy work
or build just-acceptable. Our opinions may vary on this.
> > You are speaking from a "But that's how I did it and it's fine!" view
> > point. I'm not arguing your personal experience, but standard
> > construction, and particularly the manufacturer's instructions,
> > probably shouldn't be ignored for little reason. I've seen more than
> > a few fiber cement installations that suffered from elephantiasis due
> > to inattention to detail. Frankly I'm surprised that your shed has
> > held up without paint (also no caulk?), as required by the
> > manufacturer, for so long. Perhaps you're one of the lucky ones, but
> > I tend to doubt if you hit 00 on the roulette wheel that you'd tell
> > everyone to bet 00 every time, right?
>
> Again, why are you bringing up manufacturer's instructions that relate
> to residential installations? Why would I want caulk on a shed? If water
> runs off, that's enough to keep my stuff dry. In any shed, unless it has
> HVAC, the temperature and humidity is the same on the inside as the
> outside. I actually like some airflow in and out of a shed to keep it
> from turning into a greenhouse in the summer. This can be accomplished
> with open eaves.
Why would you want caulk on a shed? Hmm, I guess for the same reason
that you'd want paint on Hardi-anything.
> I'm not lucky. Nor are the thousands of other people who put these up as
> kits from 84 lumber.
Ah, that explains things. I don't build from kits...at least I
haven't since my Erector set days.
> > Ron also said he liked the looks of T1-11, so I'd think that should
> > count for something, no?
>
> The Hardi Panel I put up looks just like T1-11.
>
> > Plywood siding goes up faster, is cheaper,
> > structurally stronger and looks just fine. So where's the problem?
>
>
> I never said there was a problem with plywood.
> I said it wasn't necessary under the Hardiboard. If you're going to put
> up plywood, just put up T1-11 and have it be structural. If you're going
> to put up Hardi... for a shed... you don't need plywood, too.
...in your opinion. This is the same opinion that leaves Hardi
unpainted. You said your shed was a store-bought kit. Were all of
the Hardipanel pieces pre-cut with sealed edges?
You're happy with what you built, as you should be, and that's fine
with me. My issue is that you're glossing over issues, and have cut
some corners, which makes some of your advice suspect.
R
"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> Home Desperate has 4 x 8 Hardi panels - looks just like T111.
And weighs a Briazillion pounds. ;~)
On Oct 5, 3:28=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 10/5/2010 1:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
> > Bingo. =A0And that is 75% of the reason you have a moisture barrier.
> > Having attended more than one cementitious product installation
> > instructional seminar they all agree to that. =A0That is also why they
> > STRONGLY recommend a suitable paint over the siding.
>
> > With our weather extremes, I am gunshy about installing Hardie on long
> > unbroken runs. =A0Tough to beat on areas that are just a couple of
> > pieces (or less) wide, but long runs don't seem to be a good fit with
> > our weather. =A0I have mitigated the problem of the product expanding
> > and contracting somewhat by using good quality paint to prime the
> > backside before installation on the longer runs. =A0Shorter runs still
> > receive nothing.
>
> > I have gone to houses that we clad with cement planking a few years
> > ago, and in long runs (say 40 - 50' across a house) that stuff moves
> > like crazy even after a factory rep certified our proper installation
> > (at the request of the client).
>
> > Which leads to the second reason for a "moisture barrier". =A0Slip
> > sheathing. =A0When you nail off the siding directly onto the wood
> > (sheathing or studs) it creates enough friction that when the siding
> > moves it will tear up the connection points. =A0 (See Leon's post on th=
e
> > wallowed out holes further down). =A0The barrier allows the cement
> > siding to "slip" a bit around the fasteners since it is not directly
> > nailed to hard contact the wood. =A0Since movement can/will cause
> > spalling and thus loose siding, why take any kind of chance? =A0I
> > can't. =A0I have to warrant my product.
>
> > That is why on a shed or an open shop we just use 15# or 30# felt.
> > Works great, and cheap, too.
>
> 30# please ...
>
> Your above is why I use "vent skin" construction on a house finished
> with siding products, particularly in our "hot, humid climate" building
> zone.
>
> By layer, as follows: sheathing; 30# felt (or tyvek); vertical 1x4's @
> 16" OC installed thru/to soffit/attic floor; siding nailed to 1x4's.
>
> (Note: I don't like to blind nail cement board using this method and
> would rather putty nail holes prior to painting.)
It sounds like you routinely set the nails below the surface and then
putty. Am I reading that wrong?
> The resultant 3/4" gap between the sheathing and siding from first
> course all the way into atic (with a 9" screen folded over 1x4's at the
> bottom to keep out insects"), PLUS ridge vent(s), will insure a
> continuous flow of air moving up the sides of the structure and out the
> roof vent.
A common variation around here is to have the vented rain screen vent
at the top of the wall and the air does not enter the attic space.
There's a move to unvented with spray foam insulation, which prevents
any air at all from getting into the attic. A similar folded screen
'cap' is at the top of the wall vent screen, and it is hidden by
horizontal trim running under the soffit.
R
Thanks for good comments so far.
I didn't mention our location and that is a factor. We are in the SE
corner of Kansas, very close to the Ozarks. High humidity is a
concern. Termites too, but will treat for them.
I built a slightly smaller shed 20-25 years ago, using Masonite,
vertical-look sheeting; and was concerned about interior impacts.
That material is probably much less impact resistant than Smart
panels. I installed a 2X4 "bumper strip" around the interior at about
tractor, wheelbarrow, tiller height. Some of the rest was protected
by shelving. Will do the same here.
I took a look at a demo video on LP's web site last night that kinda
got my attention regarding impact resistance of Smart panels vs
concrete fiber:
http://www.youtube.com/LPBuildingProducts#p/u/11/ta8Ymn_sExk
Kinda helped me decide about un-backed cement board. Some of LP's
other info and videos have me leaning toward Smart Panel. The
treatments they used during manufacture do provide a good deal of
termite and rot resistance. However, it is clear they are concerned
with moisture intrusion beyond the outer facing. T-11 is also a good
product but in the rural area where we are located, I might have to
drive more than 100 miles to get pressure treated material; and then I
am still looking at a 3-5 year cleaning and re-staining cycle.
Heading in to retirement and that might get tedious in 10 or 15
years.
Thanks again for input and more is appreciated.
RonB
On Oct 7, 8:28=A0am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
* SNIP *
THANKS for the great instruction and the time to type it out, Karl. I
really like that detail. A lot.
Robert
On Oct 5, 4:25 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> The moisture barrier is not there to protect the hardi-panel, it's there
> to protect the structure behind it. Hardi-panel is much like concrete--
> it can hold and pass a remarkable amount of water. Having structure in
> contact with it with no moisture barrier can result in the edge of the
> structure in contact with the hardi-panel being kept damp and rotting.
Bingo. And that is 75% of the reason you have a moisture barrier.
Having attended more than one cementitious product installation
instructional seminar they all agree to that. That is also why they
STRONGLY recommend a suitable paint over the siding.
With our weather extremes, I am gunshy about installing Hardie on long
unbroken runs. Tough to beat on areas that are just a couple of
pieces (or less) wide, but long runs don't seem to be a good fit with
our weather. I have mitigated the problem of the product expanding
and contracting somewhat by using good quality paint to prime the
backside before installation on the longer runs. Shorter runs still
receive nothing.
I have gone to houses that we clad with cement planking a few years
ago, and in long runs (say 40 - 50' across a house) that stuff moves
like crazy even after a factory rep certified our proper installation
(at the request of the client).
Which leads to the second reason for a "moisture barrier". Slip
sheathing. When you nail off the siding directly onto the wood
(sheathing or studs) it creates enough friction that when the siding
moves it will tear up the connection points. (See Leon's post on the
wallowed out holes further down). The barrier allows the cement
siding to "slip" a bit around the fasteners since it is not directly
nailed to hard contact the wood. Since movement can/will cause
spalling and thus loose siding, why take any kind of chance? I
can't. I have to warrant my product.
That is why on a shed or an open shop we just use 15# or 30# felt.
Works great, and cheap, too.
Robert
On Oct 7, 8:28 am, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Going on over ten years and no known problems thus far. I did my own
> home this way, FIRST. You gotta eat your own dog food.
WOOF!
I like it! Somehow, I would expect nothing less from you. The more I
think about this detail the more I like it.
SNIP
> That said, this works very well in the "hot, humid" building zone along
> the Gulf Coast, and I have absolutely no experience using it in drier
> building zones.
I went to a couple of free seminars years ago that Southwest Research
put on for our builder's association that concerned airflow and its
relation to cooling and heating a house.
They were very keen on air movement, regardless of the climate, unless
of course looking at extremes. (For example, the same insulative
processes wouldn't be used in Anchorage as Arizona).\
It was the same idea that got me onto ridge vent on houses almost 20
years ago. Yours truly was one (if not the first) to start putting
ridge venting on houses.
The sold me by showing me a video from an independent lab of two
small, one room buildings of about 250 sq ft. with conventional
turbines (2) on one and continuous ridge vent installed on the other.
They set of a mil spec pink smoke bomb in the attic to test the air
flow.
The attic space (eyeballed about a 5/12) was timed to see how long it
took the smoke to be completely exchanged with clean, fresh air from
outside.
The turbine roof took over two hours! The roof with the ridge vent
took just a little over twenty minutes to clear the smoke. The amount
of heat that was whisked away was incredible. I was so impressed that
I contacted Owens Corning and they sent me copies of the VHS tape that
I saw and I used them as sales tools.
I certainly don't see how a continuous air flow powered by mother
nature's heat would work any differently on your siding detail than on
a roof/attic detail. It is the same exact principle, so I would
expect the same results. Good results.
Thanks for taking the time to type all that out, and the good
explanation that came with it.
*thumbsup*
Robert
On 10/8/2010 1:54 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 7, 8:28 am, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> * SNIP *
>
> THANKS for the great instruction and the time to type it out, Karl. I
> really like that detail. A lot.
You're most welcome, Robert ... just a minuscule installment payback on
the spraying advice!
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
In article <24fb9f2c-34a1-4a2a-8610-000b24b2dbb9
@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
> yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are
> considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the
> looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
> used on some factory built buildings.
Is the siding going to be in ground contact? If not you don't need
pressure treated. Paint all exposed surfaces (that's top, bottom,
edges, and outward-face) before you put it up, use proper Z-flashing
properly gapped along the top, and keep it painted and it should last
longer than you will.
> The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
> a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will
> also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber
> panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
> I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
> after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
The moisture barrier is not there to protect the hardi-panel, it's there
to protect the structure behind it. Hardi-panel is much like concrete--
it can hold and pass a remarkable amount of water. Having structure in
contact with it with no moisture barrier can result in the edge of the
structure in contact with the hardi-panel being kept damp and rotting.
Since it's covered by the hardi-panel you won't be able to tell by
inspection that it's rotting and your first notice may be when the shed
falls down.
Note that you can combine hardi-plank and t1-11 to good effect--if the
shed sits on grade the lower edge of the t1-11 will be closer to the
ground than is desirable--keep it painted and it will be fine but you
have to keep on top of it. If instead you put a foot or so of hardi-
plank at the bottom with aluminum flashing behind it, then a z-flashing
and t1-11 above, you'll end up with a pretty durable installation that
doesn't need much maintenance.
> Any Experience?
>
> RonB
In article <858a6e31-4747-4f8d-af23-6c33c5c54219
@x7g2000yqg.googlegroups.com>, [email protected] says...
>
> Thanks for good comments so far.
>
> I didn't mention our location and that is a factor. We are in the SE
> corner of Kansas, very close to the Ozarks. High humidity is a
> concern. Termites too, but will treat for them.
>
> I built a slightly smaller shed 20-25 years ago, using Masonite,
> vertical-look sheeting; and was concerned about interior impacts.
> That material is probably much less impact resistant than Smart
> panels. I installed a 2X4 "bumper strip" around the interior at about
> tractor, wheelbarrow, tiller height. Some of the rest was protected
> by shelving. Will do the same here.
>
> I took a look at a demo video on LP's web site last night that kinda
> got my attention regarding impact resistance of Smart panels vs
> concrete fiber:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/LPBuildingProducts#p/u/11/ta8Ymn_sExk
>
> Kinda helped me decide about un-backed cement board. Some of LP's
> other info and videos have me leaning toward Smart Panel. The
> treatments they used during manufacture do provide a good deal of
> termite and rot resistance. However, it is clear they are concerned
> with moisture intrusion beyond the outer facing. T-11 is also a good
> product but in the rural area where we are located, I might have to
> drive more than 100 miles to get pressure treated material; and then I
> am still looking at a 3-5 year cleaning and re-staining cycle.
> Heading in to retirement and that might get tedious in 10 or 15
> years.
Whoa. STOP. Stain is not the way to low maintenance and there is
absoutely nothing about T1-11 that makes stain preferable to paint on
it. You can't stain hardipanel and you can't stain smart panel, so why
would you want to stain T1-11?
On 10/5/2010 8:05 AM, Leon wrote:
> Gotta agree with using a moisture barier to keep the contents dry.
I thought this conversation sounded familiar, googled and the below came up.
http://www.diyprojects.info/bb/ftopic599.html
dejavu all over again ... from six years ago. And what got us working
together on kitchens.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Sonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f197e183-0ee1-4ab3-8e6c-72f9cb9b0d67@a36g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
Whichever siding you use, I would recommend installing a moisture
barrier. Two rolls of felt won't break you. Also, build it with
walls at least 10' high, i.e., for some attic space. Exterior
sheeting is 8', so put a 2' skirt at the bottom, with a drip edge
between the skirt and the higher full sheet/panel... see pic. If the
bottom ever rots or gets damaged, all you'll have to replace is the
bottom skirt section.... not have to mess with a full sheet/panel. If
applicable, cut the skirt upper and lower edges at 30°, as with the
lower edge of the upper full sheet. Screw the skirt onto the framing,
easier to remove, if need be. One of my garages has had untreated
T1-11 for 20 yrs.... still in good shape. Prior to installing the
skirt, I primed and painted the 30° cuts and about 10" (a paint roller
width) up the back side. 3/4" nap roller for the rough T1-11, hand
brush it smooth... goes faster than you think. Caulk the butting
edges of each sheet. Caulk the seams/joints of your drip edge/
sheeting.
The bottom edge of the skirt, cut at 30°, doesn't allow water wicking
across an otherwise flat bottom and up the back side. A 12"
galvanized strip, behind the skirt and slightly lower than the bottom
edge, will help keep out any moisture, also... but I'm not sure of
your foundation for warranting this gal. strip.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/4733385477/
....Detailed pics can be readily gotten, if need be.
Gotta agree with using a moisture barier to keep the contents dry. My shed
went through Hurricane Ike a bouple of years ago and not a drop of water
came in. I did however use the more expensive Tyvek sheathing over tar
paper. I used the Tyvek over tar paper for two reasons, I did not want to
smell the tar smell inside the shed on a hot summer day and the Tyvek is
white not black, that helps the interior to be lighter inside when the door
is the only source of light.
"Sonny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon: > I did not want to smell the tar smell inside the shed on a hot
> summer day...
>
> I thought dust, spider webs and dirt dauber nests seals off that tar
> smell from the work area....
>
> Sonny
Interestingly in the last 6 or so years, no ovbious signs of bugs in the
store room.
On Oct 4, 4:31=A0pm, RonB <[email protected]> wrote:
> We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
> yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). =A0We are
> considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). =A0Like the
> looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
> used on some factory built buildings.
>
> The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
> a moisture barrier. =A0This is a utility building and the siding will
> also serve as sheeting. =A0No interior finish. =A0Will the cement fiber
> panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
> I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
> after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
>
> Any Experience?
>
> RonB
According to the directions, sheathing is not required for Hardi
Panel. However they do stress using a moisture barrier. So at a
minimum, no sheathing but I would use a moisture barrier. Then if the
product does fail, then you would be able to make claim on the
warranty. If it were me, I would use sheathing just to give it more
rigidity, a moisture barrier, and caulk the seams as well. Though it
is up to you.
Allen
On Oct 4, 4:31=A0pm, RonB <[email protected]> wrote:
> We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
> yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). =A0We are
> considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). =A0Like the
> looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
> used on some factory built buildings.
>
> The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
> a moisture barrier. =A0This is a utility building and the siding will
> also serve as sheeting. =A0No interior finish. =A0Will the cement fiber
> panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
> I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
> after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
>
> Any Experience?
I would not use Hardi without sheathing. Never used SmartSide, though
that seems like a good product. Treated T-1-11 is available around
here, but I don't recall if it was a LP, GP or Weyerhauser product.
Call around and ask who stocks treated plywood siding. The
manufacturers are trying to brand their stuff to differentiate theirs
from others, so asking for T1-11, while technically correct, might be
confusing some of the younger guys.
R
Whichever siding you use, I would recommend installing a moisture
barrier. Two rolls of felt won't break you. Also, build it with
walls at least 10' high, i.e., for some attic space. Exterior
sheeting is 8', so put a 2' skirt at the bottom, with a drip edge
between the skirt and the higher full sheet/panel... see pic. If the
bottom ever rots or gets damaged, all you'll have to replace is the
bottom skirt section.... not have to mess with a full sheet/panel. If
applicable, cut the skirt upper and lower edges at 30=B0, as with the
lower edge of the upper full sheet. Screw the skirt onto the framing,
easier to remove, if need be. One of my garages has had untreated
T1-11 for 20 yrs.... still in good shape. Prior to installing the
skirt, I primed and painted the 30=B0 cuts and about 10" (a paint roller
width) up the back side. 3/4" nap roller for the rough T1-11, hand
brush it smooth... goes faster than you think. Caulk the butting
edges of each sheet. Caulk the seams/joints of your drip edge/
sheeting.
The bottom edge of the skirt, cut at 30=B0, doesn't allow water wicking
across an otherwise flat bottom and up the back side. A 12"
galvanized strip, behind the skirt and slightly lower than the bottom
edge, will help keep out any moisture, also... but I'm not sure of
your foundation for warranting this gal. strip.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/43836144@N04/4733385477/
....Detailed pics can be readily gotten, if need be.
Sonny
On Oct 8, 2:07=A0pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
> I certainly don't see how a continuous air flow powered by mother
> nature's heat would work any differently on your siding detail than on
> a roof/attic detail. =A0It is the same exact principle, so I would
> expect the same results. =A0Good results.
An attic always has more heat gain, even if shaded by trees, than
siding on the North side of the building, so the temperature
differential and the chimney effect is greatly reduced.
The eave/ridge vents are there to remove heat, and to some degree,
moisture. Rain screen design is meant to reduce moisture, and has an
added benefit of reducing heat gain, but heat gain is not always a bad
thing - at least not in all climates. I want all the heat gain I can
get in winter.
R
Leon wrote the following:
> "RonB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:24fb9f2c-34a1-4a2a-8610-000b24b2dbb9@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
>> We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
>> yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are
>> considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the
>> looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
>> used on some factory built buildings.
>>
>> The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
>> a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will
>> also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber
>> panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
>> I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
>> after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
>>
>> Any Experience?
>>
>> RonB
>
> Absolutely will hold up. Like most cement or brick prioducts Hardi products
> are porus and do not fit together tightly enough to prevent water from
> blowing in through the bottom of the panels or joints. The moisture barrier
> is to protect the contents not the siding.
Perhaps the moisture barrier is also to prevent water wicking through
the hardie board into the wood studs?
>
> I have used the Hardi "planks" on my home and on my shed. I strongly
> suggest you do some cross bracing of the walls and not rely on the Hardi or
> any product of similar nature to ad structural strength of your shed. Hardi
> prioducts are a strong siding that lasts many years but if the wall wiggles
> the fantener holes in the product will wollow out. Use this type siding to
> keep the elements out and not to add strength to the structure.
>
>
--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
.
>
> Gotta agree with using a moisture barier to keep the contents dry. My
> shed went through Hurricane Ike a bouple of years ago and not a drop of
> water came in. I did however use the more expensive Tyvek sheathing over
> tar paper. I used the Tyvek over tar paper for two reasons, I did not
> want to smell the tar smell inside the shed on a hot summer day and the
> Tyvek is white not black, that helps the interior to be lighter inside
> when the door is the only source of light.
>
Correction, I chose Tyvek over tar paper, I did not use Tyvek on top of tar.
That did not come out clearly, Imagine...
"willshak" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Perhaps the moisture barrier is also to prevent water wicking through the
> hardie board into the wood studs?
That AND the hole that the fastener is not a tight one, Hardi does not seal
up tight against the fastener like wood will. If the fasteners are exposed
and not "perfectly" seated water can come through the hardi at the fastener.
On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:33:10 -0700 (PDT), Sonny <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Leon: > I did not want to smell the tar smell inside the shed on a hot
>summer day...
>
>I thought dust, spider webs and dirt dauber nests seals off that tar
>smell from the work area....
So do insulation and finished inside walls. They also make the place a
lot nicer place to visit in the middle of summer or dead of winter.
--
Know how to listen, and you will
profit even from those who talk badly.
-- Plutarch
On 10/4/10 3:31 PM, RonB wrote:
> We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
> yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are
> considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the
> looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
> used on some factory built buildings.
>
> The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
> a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will
> also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber
> panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
> I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
> after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
>
> Any Experience?
>
> RonB
I put that stuff on the shed I built, 10 years ago. I nailed in directly
to the 2x4 framing with nothing else on the inside or outside.
I never even painted the exterior.
It's the same today, physically and cosmetically, as the day I installed
it, except for some staining from mud and grass on the outside from
weed-eating and rain splash.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/4/10 4:00 PM, RicodJour wrote:
> I would not use Hardi without sheathing.
> R
Why? Unless the stuff has drastically changed in 10 years, you don't
need to be over sheathing for a shed.
The stuff on my shed is about the thickness and strength of 1/4 plywood,
probably a bit stronger and *definitely* much more stable than plywood
or OSB sheathing.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/4/10 5:04 PM, RicodJour wrote:
> On Oct 4, 5:16 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 10/4/10 4:00 PM, RicodJour wrote:
>>
>>> I would not use Hardi without sheathing.
>>
>> Why? Unless the stuff has drastically changed in 10 years, you don't
>> need to be over sheathing for a shed.
>
> While the 2009 IRC does allow direct attachement, I rarely ignore the
> manufacturer's instructions. Whether it's a house or a shed, if it
> fails it ain't good.
>
>> The stuff on my shed is about the thickness and strength of 1/4 plywood,
>> probably a bit stronger and *definitely* much more stable than plywood
>> or OSB sheathing.
>
> Shed walls generally take more abuse than a house's walls, stuff is
> banged up against the walls, etc. Wind and other natural acts
> (unnatural acts...?) don't differentiate between a residence and a
> storage building. They're equal opportunity destroyers. That's not
> necessarily a big problem, depending on where the shed is, and it can
> be dealt with by installing let-in bracing (old school, but fast
> enough and it looks really cool), or by using metal strapping on the
> diagonal in the corners. Like this (bottom left corner):
> http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/images/ICODA2009061607403503389.jpg
> But as Ron didn't mention where he is, it would be foolish to sell him
> on an idea that might not work in his area.
>
I think you're trying way over engineer a shed.
Everything I've seen on their site speaks about residential
construction, not a storage shed.
> You are speaking from a "But that's how I did it and it's fine!" view
> point. I'm not arguing your personal experience, but standard
> construction, and particularly the manufacturer's instructions,
> probably shouldn't be ignored for little reason. I've seen more than
> a few fiber cement installations that suffered from elephantiasis due
> to inattention to detail. Frankly I'm surprised that your shed has
> held up without paint (also no caulk?), as required by the
> manufacturer, for so long. Perhaps you're one of the lucky ones, but
> I tend to doubt if you hit 00 on the roulette wheel that you'd tell
> everyone to bet 00 every time, right?
>
Again, why are you bringing up manufacturer's instructions that relate
to residential installations? Why would I want caulk on a shed? If water
runs off, that's enough to keep my stuff dry. In any shed, unless it has
HVAC, the temperature and humidity is the same on the inside as the
outside. I actually like some airflow in and out of a shed to keep it
from turning into a greenhouse in the summer. This can be accomplished
with open eaves.
I'm not lucky. Nor are the thousands of other people who put these up as
kits from 84 lumber.
> Ron also said he liked the looks of T1-11, so I'd think that should
> count for something, no?
The Hardi Panel I put up looks just like T1-11.
> Plywood siding goes up faster, is cheaper,
> structurally stronger and looks just fine. So where's the problem?
>
> R
I never said there was a problem with plywood.
I said it wasn't necessary under the Hardiboard. If you're going to put
up plywood, just put up T1-11 and have it be structural. If you're going
to put up Hardi... for a shed... you don't need plywood, too.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/4/10 6:47 PM, allen476 wrote:
> On Oct 4, 4:31 pm, RonB<[email protected]> wrote:
>> We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
>> yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are
>> considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the
>> looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
>> used on some factory built buildings.
>>
>> The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
>> a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will
>> also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber
>> panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
>> I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
>> after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
>>
>> Any Experience?
>>
>> RonB
>
> According to the directions, sheathing is not required for Hardi
> Panel. However they do stress using a moisture barrier. So at a
> minimum, no sheathing but I would use a moisture barrier. Then if the
> product does fail, then you would be able to make claim on the
> warranty. If it were me, I would use sheathing just to give it more
> rigidity, a moisture barrier, and caulk the seams as well. Though it
> is up to you.
>
> Allen
If you're worried about a warranty, I would call the company and make
sure they will honor it on a shed. I'm fairly certain the moisture
barrier has nothing to with protecting the cement board and everything
to do with the intended purpose of a moisture barrier on a residence,
regardless of the siding material used.
Unless you're going to be heating & cooling your lawn tractor and
shovels, there's no need for a moisture barrier. In fact (as I wrote in
another post) I would go so far as to have open eaves on the overhang
(if you have them) or some sort of venting on each end of the roof
peaks, to allow for some air flow to prevent a greenhouse effect.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/4/10 7:36 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> If this shed will see the kind of abuse mine does I'd use sheathing...
> it will prevent busting the siding if there are errant impacts from the
> inside. From my experience with the siding, I think it would hold up to
> moderate impacts from the outside because the studs would support it
> pretty well if on 16" centers.
>
Maybe I got the super-uber-strength Hardiboard or something, but this
stuff is as strong as your typical 3 or 4 ply low grade 1/4" plywood. I
would put in up against 1/4" ply on a hammer test, any day.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/4/10 7:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 10/4/10 7:36 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>
>>> If this shed will see the kind of abuse mine does I'd use sheathing...
>>> it will prevent busting the siding if there are errant impacts from the
>>> inside. From my experience with the siding, I think it would hold up to
>>> moderate impacts from the outside because the studs would support it
>>> pretty well if on 16" centers.
>>>
>>
>> Maybe I got the super-uber-strength Hardiboard or something, but this
>> stuff is as strong as your typical 3 or 4 ply low grade 1/4" plywood. I
>> would put in up against 1/4" ply on a hammer test, any day.
>
> I don't disagree with that... it's the busting at the nails if pushed
> from the inside to which I was referring... it doesn't bend well. ;~)
I haven't experienced that, although it makes me curious enough to do
some experimenting, next time I'm out there. I would think its rigidity
would help in that department, however. I do have plenty of heavy items
leaned up against it and the mower gets pushed against it fairly hard
every time I put her away.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/4/10 8:29 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 10/4/10 7:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>
>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 10/4/10 7:36 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> If this shed will see the kind of abuse mine does I'd use sheathing...
>>>>> it will prevent busting the siding if there are errant impacts from
>>>>> the
>>>>> inside. From my experience with the siding, I think it would hold
>>>>> up to
>>>>> moderate impacts from the outside because the studs would support it
>>>>> pretty well if on 16" centers.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I got the super-uber-strength Hardiboard or something, but this
>>>> stuff is as strong as your typical 3 or 4 ply low grade 1/4" plywood. I
>>>> would put in up against 1/4" ply on a hammer test, any day.
>>>
>>> I don't disagree with that... it's the busting at the nails if pushed
>>> from the inside to which I was referring... it doesn't bend well. ;~)
>>
>> I haven't experienced that, although it makes me curious enough to do
>> some experimenting, next time I'm out there. I would think its rigidity
>> would help in that department, however. I do have plenty of heavy items
>> leaned up against it and the mower gets pushed against it fairly hard
>> every time I put her away.
>
> The risk goes up if it's wide and blind nailed... I"ve got a lot of
> heavy stuff in my shed, like digging bars, buckets of lead, etc. that
> would bust the siding off with no problem if it fell against the siding...
>
Makes for an interesting experiment, but I doubt 1/4" ply would fare any
better.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/4/10 9:00 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 10/4/10 8:29 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>
>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On 10/4/10 7:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>> On 10/4/10 7:36 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If this shed will see the kind of abuse mine does I'd use
>>>>>>> sheathing...
>>>>>>> it will prevent busting the siding if there are errant impacts from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> inside. From my experience with the siding, I think it would hold
>>>>>>> up to
>>>>>>> moderate impacts from the outside because the studs would support it
>>>>>>> pretty well if on 16" centers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe I got the super-uber-strength Hardiboard or something, but this
>>>>>> stuff is as strong as your typical 3 or 4 ply low grade 1/4"
>>>>>> plywood. I
>>>>>> would put in up against 1/4" ply on a hammer test, any day.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't disagree with that... it's the busting at the nails if pushed
>>>>> from the inside to which I was referring... it doesn't bend well. ;~)
>>>>
>>>> I haven't experienced that, although it makes me curious enough to do
>>>> some experimenting, next time I'm out there. I would think its rigidity
>>>> would help in that department, however. I do have plenty of heavy items
>>>> leaned up against it and the mower gets pushed against it fairly hard
>>>> every time I put her away.
>>>
>>> The risk goes up if it's wide and blind nailed... I"ve got a lot of
>>> heavy stuff in my shed, like digging bars, buckets of lead, etc. that
>>> would bust the siding off with no problem if it fell against the
>>> siding...
>>>
>>
>> Makes for an interesting experiment, but I doubt 1/4" ply would fare
>> any better.
>
> I use 1/2" or 3/4" depending on where I'm using it...
I know 1/2" is standard, but I was using equivalent size for comparison.
I might even put up 1/4" Hardi against some of the horrible 7/16" 3 ply
I see at Home Depot and Lowes.
3/4" sheathing, imo, would be waaaaay overkill. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/5/10 9:09 AM, RicodJour wrote:
> On Oct 4, 6:47 pm, -MIKE-<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 10/4/10 5:04 PM, RicodJour wrote:
>>
>>> Shed walls generally take more abuse than a house's walls, stuff is
>>> banged up against the walls, etc. Wind and other natural acts
>>> (unnatural acts...?) don't differentiate between a residence and a
>>> storage building. They're equal opportunity destroyers. That's not
>>> necessarily a big problem, depending on where the shed is, and it can
>>> be dealt with by installing let-in bracing (old school, but fast
>>> enough and it looks really cool), or by using metal strapping on the
>>> diagonal in the corners. Like this (bottom left corner):
>>> http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/images/ICODA2009061607...
>>> But as Ron didn't mention where he is, it would be foolish to sell him
>>> on an idea that might not work in his area.
>>
>> I think you're trying way over engineer a shed.
>> Everything I've seen on their site speaks about residential
>> construction, not a storage shed.
>
> As I mentioned, loads and the elements don't differentiate between a
> shed and any other structure, so why do you? I don't build to minimum
> anything. Life's too short to work with crappy tools, do crappy work
> or build just-acceptable. Our opinions may vary on this.
>
Who said anything about crappy work?
Are you insulating your shed? Are you putting drywall up in the inside?
Why not, if "loads and the elements don't differentiate between a shed
and any other structure?"
>>> You are speaking from a "But that's how I did it and it's fine!" view
>>> point. I'm not arguing your personal experience, but standard
>>> construction, and particularly the manufacturer's instructions,
>>> probably shouldn't be ignored for little reason. I've seen more than
>>> a few fiber cement installations that suffered from elephantiasis due
>>> to inattention to detail. Frankly I'm surprised that your shed has
>>> held up without paint (also no caulk?), as required by the
>>> manufacturer, for so long. Perhaps you're one of the lucky ones, but
>>> I tend to doubt if you hit 00 on the roulette wheel that you'd tell
>>> everyone to bet 00 every time, right?
>>
>> Again, why are you bringing up manufacturer's instructions that relate
>> to residential installations? Why would I want caulk on a shed? If water
>> runs off, that's enough to keep my stuff dry. In any shed, unless it has
>> HVAC, the temperature and humidity is the same on the inside as the
>> outside. I actually like some airflow in and out of a shed to keep it
>> from turning into a greenhouse in the summer. This can be accomplished
>> with open eaves.
>
> Why would you want caulk on a shed? Hmm, I guess for the same reason
> that you'd want paint on Hardi-anything.
>
>> I'm not lucky. Nor are the thousands of other people who put these up as
>> kits from 84 lumber.
>
> Ah, that explains things. I don't build from kits...at least I
> haven't since my Erector set days.
>
Ohhh, we're taking the arrogant approach, are we? If you must know,
after designing and building my own home and moving to another, having a
truckload of crap to store, I was a bit stressed out and wanted the
fastest, dumbest manner in which to get my $h!t stored so I could get to
the rest of why we moved in the first place.
The other house additions I've designed and built for friends weren't
done from kits either, if that helps you come down from that pedestal.
>>> Ron also said he liked the looks of T1-11, so I'd think that should
>>> count for something, no?
>>
>> The Hardi Panel I put up looks just like T1-11.
>>
>>> Plywood siding goes up faster, is cheaper,
>>> structurally stronger and looks just fine. So where's the problem?
>>
>>
>> I never said there was a problem with plywood.
>> I said it wasn't necessary under the Hardiboard. If you're going to put
>> up plywood, just put up T1-11 and have it be structural. If you're going
>> to put up Hardi... for a shed... you don't need plywood, too.
>
> ...in your opinion. This is the same opinion that leaves Hardi
> unpainted. You said your shed was a store-bought kit. Were all of
> the Hardipanel pieces pre-cut with sealed edges?
>
> You're happy with what you built, as you should be, and that's fine
> with me. My issue is that you're glossing over issues, and have cut
> some corners, which makes some of your advice suspect.
>
> R
All I'm saying is I have a shed out there with hardipanel as the only
structural sheathing and it's as solid as the day I put it up, 10yrs ago.
Mileage may vary, but if a guy just wants to keep rain of his mower and
shovels,
he can save a lot of time and money by not building it like a house.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 10/5/10 11:13 AM, RonB wrote:
> I took a look at a demo video on LP's web site last night that kinda
> got my attention regarding impact resistance of Smart panels vs
> concrete fiber:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/LPBuildingProducts#p/u/11/ta8Ymn_sExk
>
> RonB
excellent demonstration.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10/4/10 7:36 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>
>> If this shed will see the kind of abuse mine does I'd use sheathing...
>> it will prevent busting the siding if there are errant impacts from the
>> inside. From my experience with the siding, I think it would hold up to
>> moderate impacts from the outside because the studs would support it
>> pretty well if on 16" centers.
>>
>
> Maybe I got the super-uber-strength Hardiboard or something, but this
> stuff is as strong as your typical 3 or 4 ply low grade 1/4" plywood. I
> would put in up against 1/4" ply on a hammer test, any day.
I don't disagree with that... it's the busting at the nails if pushed from
the inside to which I was referring... it doesn't bend well. ;~)
On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:51:27 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>
>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>.
>>
>> Gotta agree with using a moisture barier to keep the contents dry. My
>> shed went through Hurricane Ike a bouple of years ago and not a drop of
>> water came in. I did however use the more expensive Tyvek sheathing over
>> tar paper. I used the Tyvek over tar paper for two reasons, I did not
>> want to smell the tar smell inside the shed on a hot summer day and the
>> Tyvek is white not black, that helps the interior to be lighter inside
>> when the door is the only source of light.
>>
>
>Correction, I chose Tyvek over tar paper, I did not use Tyvek on top of tar.
>That did not come out clearly, Imagine...
The way you're saying it, the tar paper is next to the studs and the
building smells like tar. You meant to say tar paper over Tyvek,
right? The layers are studs, tyvek, tarpaper, siding, in order of
installation.
--
Know how to listen, and you will
profit even from those who talk badly.
-- Plutarch
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 13:31:25 -0700 (PDT), RonB <[email protected]>
wrote:
>We are planning construction of a garden shed to store garden tractor,
>yard tools, and "stuff" (and regain use of my garage shop). We are
>considering Smart Siding, Hardi Panel and T-11 (T1-11). Like the
>looks of T-11 but have been unable to find pressure treated siding
>used on some factory built buildings.
>
>The Hardi panel looks good but their installation instructions require
>a moisture barrier. This is a utility building and the siding will
>also serve as sheeting. No interior finish. Will the cement fiber
>panel hold up to long term use without sheeting and moisture barrier?
>I have used a product similar to Smart and the building looks good
>after 25 years but there is concern with Hardi.
>
>Any Experience?
No strength in tension if you mount Hardi panel with out backing it is
real easy to break. Would not do Hardi panel without plywood under it.
Your friend might just lean right on through it.
Mark
On 10/5/2010 1:03 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Bingo. And that is 75% of the reason you have a moisture barrier.
> Having attended more than one cementitious product installation
> instructional seminar they all agree to that. That is also why they
> STRONGLY recommend a suitable paint over the siding.
>
> With our weather extremes, I am gunshy about installing Hardie on long
> unbroken runs. Tough to beat on areas that are just a couple of
> pieces (or less) wide, but long runs don't seem to be a good fit with
> our weather. I have mitigated the problem of the product expanding
> and contracting somewhat by using good quality paint to prime the
> backside before installation on the longer runs. Shorter runs still
> receive nothing.
>
> I have gone to houses that we clad with cement planking a few years
> ago, and in long runs (say 40 - 50' across a house) that stuff moves
> like crazy even after a factory rep certified our proper installation
> (at the request of the client).
>
> Which leads to the second reason for a "moisture barrier". Slip
> sheathing. When you nail off the siding directly onto the wood
> (sheathing or studs) it creates enough friction that when the siding
> moves it will tear up the connection points. (See Leon's post on the
> wallowed out holes further down). The barrier allows the cement
> siding to "slip" a bit around the fasteners since it is not directly
> nailed to hard contact the wood. Since movement can/will cause
> spalling and thus loose siding, why take any kind of chance? I
> can't. I have to warrant my product.
>
> That is why on a shed or an open shop we just use 15# or 30# felt.
> Works great, and cheap, too.
30# please ...
Your above is why I use "vent skin" construction on a house finished
with siding products, particularly in our "hot, humid climate" building
zone.
By layer, as follows: sheathing; 30# felt (or tyvek); vertical 1x4's @
16" OC installed thru/to soffit/attic floor; siding nailed to 1x4's.
(Note: I don't like to blind nail cement board using this method and
would rather putty nail holes prior to painting.)
The resultant 3/4" gap between the sheathing and siding from first
course all the way into atic (with a 9" screen folded over 1x4's at the
bottom to keep out insects"), PLUS ridge vent(s), will insure a
continuous flow of air moving up the sides of the structure and out the
roof vent.
Any moisture that does penetrate the siding will be mitigated by said
air flow, which keeps thing dry over the long haul.
An excellent construction method where high wind and rain is expected.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10/4/10 8:29 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>
>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 10/4/10 7:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On 10/4/10 7:36 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this shed will see the kind of abuse mine does I'd use
>>>>>> sheathing...
>>>>>> it will prevent busting the siding if there are errant impacts from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> inside. From my experience with the siding, I think it would hold
>>>>>> up to
>>>>>> moderate impacts from the outside because the studs would support it
>>>>>> pretty well if on 16" centers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I got the super-uber-strength Hardiboard or something, but this
>>>>> stuff is as strong as your typical 3 or 4 ply low grade 1/4" plywood.
>>>>> I
>>>>> would put in up against 1/4" ply on a hammer test, any day.
>>>>
>>>> I don't disagree with that... it's the busting at the nails if pushed
>>>> from the inside to which I was referring... it doesn't bend well. ;~)
>>>
>>> I haven't experienced that, although it makes me curious enough to do
>>> some experimenting, next time I'm out there. I would think its rigidity
>>> would help in that department, however. I do have plenty of heavy items
>>> leaned up against it and the mower gets pushed against it fairly hard
>>> every time I put her away.
>>
>> The risk goes up if it's wide and blind nailed... I"ve got a lot of
>> heavy stuff in my shed, like digging bars, buckets of lead, etc. that
>> would bust the siding off with no problem if it fell against the
>> siding...
>>
>
> Makes for an interesting experiment, but I doubt 1/4" ply would fare any
> better.
I use 1/2" or 3/4" depending on where I'm using it...
"Larry Jaques" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 16:51:27 -0500, "Leon" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>.
>>>
>>> Gotta agree with using a moisture barier to keep the contents dry. My
>>> shed went through Hurricane Ike a bouple of years ago and not a drop of
>>> water came in. I did however use the more expensive Tyvek sheathing
>>> over
>>> tar paper. I used the Tyvek over tar paper for two reasons, I did not
>>> want to smell the tar smell inside the shed on a hot summer day and the
>>> Tyvek is white not black, that helps the interior to be lighter inside
>>> when the door is the only source of light.
>>>
>>
>>Correction, I chose Tyvek over tar paper, I did not use Tyvek on top of
>>tar.
>>That did not come out clearly, Imagine...
>
> The way you're saying it, the tar paper is next to the studs and the
> building smells like tar. You meant to say tar paper over Tyvek,
> right? The layers are studs, tyvek, tarpaper, siding, in order of
> installation.
No, I meant to say that there was NO tar paper, I only used Tyvek. Given a
choice of which one to use I chose Tyvek over tar paper. The layers are
studs, Tyvek, then siding.
On 10/5/2010 11:24 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> Is that a KarlCo © original detail? If so, it's a keeper. I am going
> to bookmark that one for future reference. Every once in a while we
> replace wood siding on a heavy sun facing with Hardie, and that really
> seems like the detail we need on a house.
The idea has been around for years. A similar method sometimes call a
"rain skin" has been used in more Northern climates for sometime and
this is basically and adaptation of that, but with venting into attics
equipped with ridge vents to move the air.
A very simple concept, and one that uses nature alone to provide the
benefit ... no moving parts or fuel costs. ;)
You won't find much about skin vent construcion, or literature on it. It
is not something usually seen in the industry, therefore most have never
heard of it, and like all things unknown, will not embrace it unless
someone else does it first and leads the way
Architects are familiar with the principles behind it, and one of the
most notable architect/builders in this area has also been building this
way for years.
It makes a world of sense in certain climates if you think about it.
After all, the siding on a house is non structural in nature, can be
thought of as simply as skin protecting the structure from the elements,
so why not incorporate air flow, by use of a void space between the
siding and sheathing in that protection, allowing quick drying of any
moisture intrusion, something which is likely in hot, humid climates
that are subjected to periodic high winds and rain.
It doesn't take a rocket surgery mentality to realize the benefits, just
some thinking outside the normal. Most builders are deadly afraid to do
anything that is not traditional, or that adds cost.
In this case, the cost is minnimal ... the 1x4 stock being the only real
cost. Labor to do it is no more than what the normal siding/cornice crew
would charge, so you shouldn't see an increase in labor costs at all.
Your painter might charge a bit more for filling nail holes due to my
own penchant to not blind nailing, but I've never noticed a difference
in a painters overall bid because of that.
What's few hundred bucks for a correspondingly bigger bang for those bucks.
That said, it is money spent where the average home buyer can't see it
... an anathema to 99% of builders.
> Impressive. No kidding. I have been thinking that over for a couple
> of hours. Impressive...
>
> As one of my colleagues likes to say, "I think I'll put that one in my
> pocket and take it with me."
>
> Have you gotten any feedback from the clients where you have followed
> this detail about siding movement or heat transfer?
Going on over ten years and no known problems thus far. I did my own
home this way, FIRST. You gotta eat your own dog food.
> My BIGGEST problem is movement, mainly shrinkage. We have used that
> crap recommended by Hardie call "Big Stretch", and that was the worst
> latex elastomeric crap I have ever used. Made it two seasons on the
> sun side of the house without tearing. I never have any bulging
> joints (I only buy from a yard that properly stores the planking) but
> I always have some shrinkage. I push them up tight, and they still
> shrink as much about 1/8" during the droughts, but close back up when
> the rainy season starts. (You know, also known as winter around
> here.)
>
> Priming the backside has mitigated that a bit, but certainly not
> eliminated it.
I've never seen abnormal movement with nailing Hardi siding to 1x4's @
16" OC ... AAMOF, probably less ... although I have no statistical
evidence to back it up, visually there have been no issues that I'm
aware of.
That said, this works very well in the "hot, humid" building zone along
the Gulf Coast, and I have absolutely no experience using it in drier
building zones.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10/4/10 9:00 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>
>>> Makes for an interesting experiment, but I doubt 1/4" ply would fare
>>> any better.
>>
>> I use 1/2" or 3/4" depending on where I'm using it...
>
> I know 1/2" is standard, but I was using equivalent size for comparison.
> I might even put up 1/4" Hardi against some of the horrible 7/16" 3 ply
> I see at Home Depot and Lowes.
>
> 3/4" sheathing, imo, would be waaaaay overkill. :-)
I've used 3/4 a few times... like when 1/4 fiber board is on other parts of
the house and when I need to nail into the sheathing for trim and such when
there are no studs in the vicinity. An example of the later is putting 4"
trim around windows and needing to nail the Hardie Plank siding to
something. 3/4 is also good in hurricane areas!
"-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10/4/10 7:59 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>
>> "-MIKE-" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On 10/4/10 7:36 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If this shed will see the kind of abuse mine does I'd use sheathing...
>>>> it will prevent busting the siding if there are errant impacts from the
>>>> inside. From my experience with the siding, I think it would hold up to
>>>> moderate impacts from the outside because the studs would support it
>>>> pretty well if on 16" centers.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe I got the super-uber-strength Hardiboard or something, but this
>>> stuff is as strong as your typical 3 or 4 ply low grade 1/4" plywood. I
>>> would put in up against 1/4" ply on a hammer test, any day.
>>
>> I don't disagree with that... it's the busting at the nails if pushed
>> from the inside to which I was referring... it doesn't bend well. ;~)
>
> I haven't experienced that, although it makes me curious enough to do
> some experimenting, next time I'm out there. I would think its rigidity
> would help in that department, however. I do have plenty of heavy items
> leaned up against it and the mower gets pushed against it fairly hard
> every time I put her away.
The risk goes up if it's wide and blind nailed... I"ve got a lot of heavy
stuff in my shed, like digging bars, buckets of lead, etc. that would bust
the siding off with no problem if it fell against the siding...