Solid Counter top for the DIY

Willi wrote:
> I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
> discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
> for the DIY.
>
>
> Any products available for the DIY?
>

It simply doesn't lend itself to DIY-ers.
The distributors will only sell to certified fabricators.
There are some polyester based fly-by-nights who'll take anybody's
money, but the reputable 100% acrylic products such as Wilsonart
Gibraltar, Corian, Staron and Meganite insist on being able to extend
their 10-year warranties. That includes expert fabrication AND
installation.

Adhesive chemistry and dust control are just some of the issues which
are simply not in the realm of an amateur.

Besides, those of us who have dedicated a lot of time and money to
become experts won't take well to some distributor 'back-dooring'
product to the end user. We would turf that product out on its ass in a
heartbeat. The distributors know that and therefore would rather deal
with us. A position I wholeheartedly support.

r
www.topworks.ca

Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:06:13 -0700, Willi <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
> >discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
> >for the DIY.
> >
> >
> >Any products available for the DIY?
> >
> >Willi
>
>
> Solid surface producers liscence their installers, in their opinion to
> control quality and limit warranty, in my opinion to hold prices up.
> I would prefer a method to buy sheet stock that would be without
> warranty if not liscenced.
>
> That said:
>
> http://www.solid-surface-kits.com/
>
> I have not used them, only considered it.
>

Price fixing is the last thing we're concerned about. Making a
worth-while profit is everybody's right.
If we can't make a decent buck, we won't promote the product.
Distributors know that. It is, however, a small reason to support us.
The expertise is what

Got to love this part:
Corian-TYPE of countertop. Their Dovae product isn't too shabby, but
their house-brand is likely polyester (as in Bondo autobody filler?)
and I know that Formica is polyester. Nowhere does one see the
reputable products.
Here's another 'treat':
glue & gun ($65. ea.)
pallet & cradle charge ($125)
shipping ($175 - $300) depending on destination.
(Is it just me, or am I looking at $ 500.00 here.)

I wonder how they would deal with a cooktop cut-out.
I also wonder who you'd call if the top broke after installation. (A
pretty serious probability with polyester tops.)

FWIW

r

Frank Boettcher wrote:
>[snipped for brevity].
>
> My conclusion, it is not without some need for skill and knowledge and
> some specialty equipment, but not rocket science and certainly not
> outside of the abilities of a good woodworker.
>


You are absolutely right in saying that it isn't rocket science. It is
all common sense...and therein lies the rub. Common sense is not
common. My common sense took me 20 years to accumulate and I still
encounter head-scratchers. A 'thinking' woodworker would not have any
problems making a countertop..assuming he applies all the rules from
the stained glass community as well..stuff like inside corners must
have ample radius. All stress risers must be smooth and polished.
Seams must be 3" away from any corners. Cook-top inside corners must be
doubled up with bevelled plates. When making front edges, the strip on
the front edge must be very smooth and dropped into a very smooth
rabbet. Clamping must be done with spring clamps, about 40 for a
10-foot run.... over clamping will starve the joint. Seams must be
dead-nuts vertically as well as the faces must be accurate. The amount
of pressure on the seam when adhering must be within a certain range,
over-pressure starves the joint, under-pressure looks terrible. Never
screw down to the cabinets, it must float. Allow 1/4" per 120" for
expansion. Never use a belt sander on a seam. Do not run seams through
a sink or cook-top cut-out or over a dishwasher. Line the cook-top
cutout with heavy gauge aluminum heatsink. Always use a holesaw with
very sharp teeth to cut holes for the taps. I know I am probably
forgetting a dozen other 'musts'...but you get to figure them out over
the next 20 years like I did. Stuff like router-bit speed and
feed-rates when making the rabbet for a professional looking edge. We
haven't even started to talk about undermounting sinks in a variety of
ways. Then, when you're all done, you get to sand the whole
thing...evenly..no patterns from the sanding path... no
snaketracks.....

Polevaulting isn't rocket science either. Try it sometime.

r.

J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 07:31:07 -0800, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > Willi wrote:
> >> I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
> >> discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
> >> for the DIY.
> >>
> >>
> >> Any products available for the DIY?
> >>
> >
> > It simply doesn't lend itself to DIY-ers.
> > The distributors will only sell to certified fabricators.
> > There are some polyester based fly-by-nights who'll take anybody's
> > money, but the reputable 100% acrylic products such as Wilsonart
> > Gibraltar, Corian, Staron and Meganite insist on being able to extend
> > their 10-year warranties. That includes expert fabrication AND
> > installation.
> >
> > Adhesive chemistry and dust control are just some of the issues which
> > are simply not in the realm of an amateur.
> >
> > Besides, those of us who have dedicated a lot of time and money to
> > become experts won't take well to some distributor 'back-dooring'
> > product to the end user. We would turf that product out on its ass in a
> > heartbeat. The distributors know that and therefore would rather deal
> > with us. A position I wholeheartedly support.
>
> And how much do you make a year installing solid surface?
>
I could tell you what I make fabricating and installing solid surface,
but then I would have to shoot you. It is THAT much of a secret. <G>

r

J. Clarke wrote:
[snipped forbrevity]
>
> Compare and constrast the worst likely outcome of a screwed up attempt at
> pole vaulting and a screwed up attempt at installing your own solid
> surface and then tell me if you think that this was really an apt analogy.

I was illustrating that some things aren't as simple as they at first
appear.... nothing more, nothing less. If I had followed the alleged
analogy to some sort of conclusion, I'd have specified that the
components of the analogy had been executed successfully.

....mmmm I'm still trying to process an 8-foot cancerous cat exploding
in the vortex of a black hole.

J. Clarke wrote:

> So you _do_ have a profit motive for maintaining the status quo. You do
> realize that that makes everything you say suspect.

Why does that make everything I say suspect? I have every right to
protect the business I have built up. And as long as I have the
commercial clout to make the distributors see things my way, I will use
it. If you begrudge me that, what does that make you?

On Nov 17, 5:51 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> piped up and chirped:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
> And as long as I have the> commercial clout to make the distributors see things my way, I will use
> > it. If you begrudge me that, what does that make you?

>Suspicious of everything you say.


I was thinking more along the lines of un-American. Free enterprise and
all that.

On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip].
>If you believed in free enterprise then you wouldn't want to have a
> protected market.

That is *if* you assume that the protection is because of profits and
price.
It is not.
The manufacturers' warranties include fabrication and installation. If
something goes wrong during 10 years (and often beyond), it is covered.
In many cases when the home-owner screws up (a red-hot cast iron frying
pan, for instance) the warranty is still covered as a matter of
courtesy. I have repaired, at no cost to the home-owner, screw ups made
by OTHER bad fabricators who allowed unqualified workers do stupid
things, like cutting out cook-tops with a jigsaw. The manufacturer and
I, collectively, sign up for a decade with the customer.

The manufacturers do not want their product name tarnished by bad
performance out in the field regardless of the cause.

I call it fair to get a decent buck for a job well done. I do not want
to compete with people who lack the skill and commitment to uphold the
integrity of the product.

I am taking care of my customers in my neighbourhood and it is
important to me that my business stays healthy and up-to-date; that
costs money too.

The prices are established by using very basic formulas: cost of
materials, overhead, wages and a profit. If I push the profit margins
too high, people won't buy my countertops. I have to stay competitive
with granite and e-Stone (Quartz)

If, for whatever reason, I can't make a profit, I bail. The
manufacturers make sure that guys like me don't lose interest. This is
not complicated.

On Nov 17, 7:54 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...> If a DIYer can't get solid surface he's not
> > going to come to you for an installation, he's just going to not use solid
> > surface.True.

>Once the style changes to something else (it always does), you will
> see it on the open market just to maintain sales.

....Right....
After 24 years, the stuff will likely never catch on. DuPont, Samsung,
Pyrotech, Wilsonart, are all clueless. They all built 20 to 50 million
dollar plants because they don't think it will catch on either.

I don't think laminate flooring stands a chance. <G>

basically my realtor would have me believe the same things, that i
don't have the knowledge, experience or common sense to sell / buy my
own home. Therefore i should pay him $15K to do it for me.
First house i ever purchased, i bought that line of logic. Next time i
think i will try it myself.
If realtors had the same lock on the market that some installers have i
would be pretty torqued.

on the other hand i have no interest in trying to install a new
windshield on my car, so i don't really care that i can't run down to
the Glassborg and pick up a new windshield and tube of caulk. Some
things are worth paying to have done right.

CW wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> > I call it fair to get a decent buck for a job well done. I do not want
> > to compete with people who lack the skill and commitment to uphold the
> > integrity of the product.
>
> Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who might
> underbid you.

Try to follow this scenario, if you can allow yourself to see things
from another perspective.
If I am faced with the fact that my distributor is shipping to a new,
unestablished, fabricator who is in my neck of the woods, I have to ask
myself the question why. If then, the new guy starts undercutting my
pricing, I have to ask myself if I can afford to cut the margins to the
point where it simply isn't worth the hassle of operating a business. I
am not some phylantropical institution no matter how much the likes of
Mr. Clarke would like me to be.
Next thing you know, I stop ordering from that distributor. Meanwhile,
the new fabricator's bills are due...he's not making enough money to
operate a business, so he goes under. Now nobody is selling the
product. The distributor now knows he screwed up. He wants to talk to
Rob again. Rob tells him to go fuck himself. This very same scenario is
an actual account of history. The distributors are smarter than that
now. They know it is healthy if they allow a quality fabricator to stay
in business.

My prices are 20+% lower that the solid surface countertops that Home
Depot sells. 15% lower than IKEA. What that proves, is that I am
neither greedy nor a price-fixer. Besides, I have shipped several slabs
of solid surface material to Wreckers, so they can make routertable
inserts. No charge, I paid the shipping.

To insinuate that I run a greedy, opportunistic business, proves one
thing: you haven't got a clue what I am about. But if you want a piece
of material to complete a project, all you have to do is ask, because
even cantankerous old goats need a break once in a while.

r

J. Clarke wrote:

> The problem isn't the price, the problem is the availability. One can buy
> a generator if one wants to go that route, or one can buy the materials
> and parts to make one. But try to buy solid surface if you aren't an
> authorized installer.

We simply do not want anybody to expose the product in an inferior way.
It is not good for the product's image. (This is aside from the fact
that the polyisocyanide
and other nasty stuff in the adhesives/hardener is very nasty stuff
prior to reaction.)

> It's not an issue of his being wrong about the "material science"
> (althought "material science" is a different field related to structural
> design), the issue is that he doesn't want anybody but him and others who
> are "authorized" to be able to buy solid surface even if the application
> is one that is outside of his line of business.

That is simply not true. Any countertop shop can buy the strips to edge
their counters or
for back splashes. Most will sell the material wide enough to make
window sills.

> The problem is not with cost or with skills but with the attitude of the
> manufacturer that you must prove that you are worthy before they will
> deign to sell you their wonderful product.

Now THAT is a crock. The manufacturers do not approach this from an
elitist standpoint.
Read my lips: The product must be fabricated and installed by somebody
skilled and trained enough
in order for the manufacturer to underwrite the warranty. It is risk
management as well as a way to assure that the application of the
product is within the guidelines of the product's technical
specification. Its structural strength limits the application as well.
The fire rating comes into play. If Mr. Clarke wants to build a
fireplace mantle out of it, and it collapses into the fire,
the liability will not be assumed by the manufacturer. You, sir, are
simply not qualified to make judgements as to when and when not to use
that product in any specific application.

>
> How would you feel if the glue manufacturers got together and refused to
> sell glue to anybody who wasn't "authorized"? How about the nail
> manufacturers or the screw manufacturers or the paint manufacturers? How
> about if the lumber mills refused to sell wood to anyone who wasn't
> "authorized"? After all, not everybody knows how to design for wood
> movement or apply clamping pressure or cut a proper mortise and we can't
> have substandard work degrading the reputation of the product now can we?
>
> See how empty those arguments are when applied to something other than
> solid surface?

You forgot one. Prove to me you know how to handle toilet paper and
I'll sell you a porkchop.
Maybe somebody else wants to chase your red herrings and salute your
straw men.
I will not.
.
>
> Now, suppose you find that you can do wonderful things with solid surface
> and the ShopBot and then Rob kicks off and you can't get the material
> anymore. What is that going to do to your attitude?
>
Someone as rational as Rick? I'd sign his tests in a heartbeat. Then
I'd take a truck to Rick's and put on three shifts of CNC operators and
make certain products of my design out of solid surface material which
would yield a substantial amount of eBay sales within a year. (I'd set
it all up myself, but there's only one of me.)
*which reminds me, I need somebody to turn me 2 pieces 18" diameter x
6" thick out of maple.*
I pay well.

For further info:
http://www.issfa.org/

On Nov 18, 12:50 pm, "Lowell Holmes" <[email protected]> wrote:

What a ridiculous string! You guys should be making shavings instead of
B.S.
> :-)

Hey, you're reading it.

Mr Clarke:

It is now obvious that your sole goal is to perpetuate an argument
based on what you think is right in that limited mind of yours.

For a while you had me tricked into thinking that you were open to
reason.
It seems that I have wasted my time and I will no longer indulge you.

Have a nice day.

r

PS Yes, I do have a degree in engineering. You?

On Nov 18, 10:36 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>
>
>
>
>
> > CW wrote:
> > > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]...
>
> > > > On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > I call it fair to get a decent buck for a job well done. I do not want
> > > > to compete with people who lack the skill and commitment to uphold the
> > > > integrity of the product.
>
> > > Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
> might
> > > underbid you.
>
> > Try to follow this scenario, if you can allow yourself to see things
> > from another perspective.
> > If I am faced with the fact that my distributor is shipping to a new,
> > unestablished, fabricator who is in my neck of the woods, I have to ask
> > myself the question why. If then, the new guy starts undercutting my
> > pricing, I have to ask myself if I can afford to cut the margins to the
> > point where it simply isn't worth the hassle of operating a business.So you're saying that it is better for you and the manufacturer to keep the
> tight little "club" going to ensure high prices and lack of competition.

On Nov 18, 10:36 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:

Now, let's quote the entire statement, shall we?

Try to follow this scenario, if you can allow yourself to see things
from another perspective.
If I am faced with the fact that my distributor is shipping to a new,
unestablished, fabricator who is in my neck of the woods, I have to ask

myself the question why. If then, the new guy starts undercutting my
pricing, I have to ask myself if I can afford to cut the margins to the

point where it simply isn't worth the hassle of operating a business. I

am not some phylantropical institution no matter how much the likes of
Mr. Clarke would like me to be.
Next thing you know, I stop ordering from that distributor. Meanwhile,
the new fabricator's bills are due...he's not making enough money to
operate a business, so he goes under..

Then you, CW wrote this:
>So you're saying that it is better for you and the manufacturer to keep the
> tight little "club" going to ensure high prices and lack of competition.

So where am I saying that? Nowhere did I mention that we ensure high
prices and lack of competition. In fact, the opposite is true. because
I get to operate by myself, I can cut my prices because I know I will
have enough business to maintain my business model. There simply isn't
any room for me to cut my prices further. Which is why I know that if
anybody tried to sell for less than I do, they wouldn't be able to stay
in business, because they would be operating at a loss.

And www.issfa.org is an outfit which shares all the best techniques to
produce a better product with less labour so that we can make it even
more affordable to the consumers.

You, sir, are barking up the wrong tree.

It is a combination of my low prices and quality craftsmanship that
keeps my shop going, fuelled by the best advertizing ever: word of
mouth.

r

On Nov 18, 11:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
>
> > PS Yes, I do have a degree in engineering. You?Georgia Tech '79. Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing
> counters for a living?

I retired in 2003 at age 54. I sold my business, which as part of the
services included the fabrication of solid surface countertops. Mostly
in commercial application such as Burger king, McDonalds etc.
To keep myself in turbo chargers for my other hobby, I decided to make
a few tops here and there for people (*cueing up some angelic choir
music*) who otherwise couldn't have afforded them.
Turns out I got busier than I wanted to be, but somehow I'll control
that in the near future. For now I am raking in the megabucks and
buying my town, city block by city block. Ordered a new Bentley and a
Gulfstream IV jet as well.
I'm going to paint great big fucking Corian logos all over them too.


As if.

r

On Nov 18, 11:52 pm, Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
> Somebody wrote: > Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
> > might underbid you.
>
> If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
> equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
> in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
> training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
> apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.
>
> After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
> in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.
>
> Happens every day.

Well said, Lew. However, this town of 70,000 with a total population if
you include the whole county, of maybe 125,000 people, will not support
two fabricating shops. In that respect, the manyfacturers look at me as
if I am a franchise.
Anybody who would gear up to make the neccessary investments, would
know that there wouldn't be room for two.
If somebody from the next town over (London) called me for a quote, I'd
refer them to a fabricator I know who will do a good job at a good
price.... in London. He paid to play, he ante'd up, he spend the time
to learn the ins and outs, he's every bit as good at it as I am (maybe
better).

We have one Honda dealer here and I can't for the life of me imagine
two.

r

J. Clarke gurgled:
> Look, moron, I don't want to compete with you, [snipped more drivel]

You couldn't compete with me. You don't have the parts. (Double
entendre there, Mr. Clarke.)
>

>
> In other words you benefit from lack of competition.

Holy cow! He gets it! People benefit from lack of competition. Real or
imagined.
>

> > It is a combination of my low prices and quality craftsmanship that
> > keeps my shop going, fuelled by the best advertizing ever: word of
> > mouth.
>
> Uh huh. Sure.

Hehehehehe.... gawd, you're easy....

r

Prometheus wrote:
>
>
> I haven't priced out Corian lately, but if Rob says it's directly
> competing with Granite, [snip]

Granite and eStone are more money. The 'direct' competition is in terms
of space.
Something is going to end up on those kitchen and bathroom cabinets.
Being it custom laminate or semiprecious stone, real butcher-block or
stainless steel.
I do not consider post-formed laminate, by the blank, competition; I
don't go there.

The competition is for space and if you look at my web-site, you'll see
that I have those bases covered too. Solid surface is a nice stepping
stone between custom laminate and granite/eStone.

When buying slabs of granite, make sure you get a good grade, because
many 'look' the same, but can be full of fissures. Blue Pearl, for
instance, can range from $ 900 to $ 1900 for a 5 x 10 slab from the
same supplier. If you hang a sheet, and hit it with a mallet, it should
ring like big bell. If it doesn't, run like hell.

Maybe Mr, Clarke should look at concrete. That he can buy anywhere,
assuming he doesn't open his mouth first.

r

Can't you feel the love?

On Nov 19, 3:00 am, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> Look, moron,

Ohhhhweee.. name calling..John, John, John... what a nasty thing to
do. I normally let that immature behaviour roll off me, but then I
discovered that you are a hypocrite.
Here are two direct quotes from you, John Clarke, on the topic of name
calling:

> I see. So you really don't have a clue what the relevance of your
> observation might be and so you attempt to mask that ignorance with name
> calling. Care to try again?

> About what? Expecting people to defend their arguments with reason and
> logic rather than simply asserting over and over again "you're wrong" and
> when that doesn't work following up with name calling?

That was from May 2004. That also was from a discussion about solid
surface.
What surprises me, is that you didn't learn a single fucking thing in
these 2 1/2 years. Zip, zilch, nada.

What annoys me most, is that I wasted my time on a troll like you, John
Clarke. Maybe that's all you really wanted, a little attention.

<plonk>

Prometheus wrote:
[snip]
> >When buying slabs of granite, make sure you get a good grade, because
> >many 'look' the same, but can be full of fissures. Blue Pearl, for
> >instance, can range from $ 900 to $ 1900 for a 5 x 10 slab from the
> >same supplier. If you hang a sheet, and hit it with a mallet, it should
> >ring like big bell. If it doesn't, run like hell.
>
> Well, that's good advice, and something I didn't know. But will they
> hang it for you to do a test like that?
>
I suppose. They want you to see the slab before they cut it for you
anyway..soooo.
I have learned to trust my supplier. He doesn't buy bad sheets.
The granite supplier I use, moves all his slabs by grabbing the top
edge with a gripper clamp and overhead crane. A whack of a rubber
mallet gives them a bit of idea what to expect when they
put it down on the beam saw. That transition from vertical to
horizontal always makes them nervous.
So does the thought of a slab coming apart inside the bay of the CNC.
(That thing operates practically under water.)

Willi wrote:
> I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
> discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
> for the DIY.
>
>
> Any products available for the DIY?

I bought and installed a Swanstone countertop for my bathroom vanity
about 4 years ago. They were willing to sell to anybody, at least at
the time. The material resembles Corian in appearance. I think it has
quartz in it and may be tougher. I didn't have to do any seams or
anything fancy for a bathroom, though I did get the integral sink with
backsplash and I did have to cut it to fit. I cut it with a jigsaw but
a regular jigsaw blade would have no teeth left after cutting about 5
inches. (It would still cut even with rounded over nubs on the blade,
but really slowly.) Note also that the sheet is only 1/4 inch thick
with a thicker edge in front and occasional ribbing. I guess it's
stronger than Corian and doesn't need to be 1/2 inch thick. I'm happy
with the result.

You might also consider installing soapstone which is supposed to be
easily worked with woodworking tools but is less porous than granite.
(No personal experience.)

(I wouldn't put Corian in a kitchen that I was planning to use. It's
too sensitive to heat. My mother-in-law's Corian has a huge crack in
it where a hot pan was set. I heard that the instructions tell you not
to put boiling water in your Corian sink---so how do you drain your
pasta?)

J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:21:59 -0800, Robatoy wrote:
>
> > On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > [snip].
> >>If you believed in free enterprise then you wouldn't want to have a
> >> protected market.
> >
> > That is *if* you assume that the protection is because of profits and
> > price.
> > It is not.
> > The manufacturers' warranties include fabrication and installation. If
> > something goes wrong during 10 years (and often beyond), it is covered.
> > In many cases when the home-owner screws up (a red-hot cast iron frying
> > pan, for instance) the warranty is still covered as a matter of
> > courtesy. I have repaired, at no cost to the home-owner, screw ups made
> > by OTHER bad fabricators who allowed unqualified workers do stupid
> > things, like cutting out cook-tops with a jigsaw. The manufacturer and
> > I, collectively, sign up for a decade with the customer.
>
> That's your story. My story is that it's because of profits and price.
> If it was because of warranty issues then the manufacturers could easily
> sell the product without warranty.

You may not want to accept it, but manufacturers and distributors are
perfectly within their rights to choose their desired method of going
to market. Sure, sure, they are protecting their profits to a degree,
but they are also steering clear of high risk customers. If the product
requires special skills to use/install they avoid a great deal of
trouble (read COST) by restricting sales to a network of professionals.

The typical wrecker is way above average as a do-it-yourselfer and you
have to remember that most people are not like most of us. These
manufacturers are considering the mainstream do-it-yourselfer, whose
skills and experience are way below yours, and worse, way below what he
thinks they are.

So here's the scenario: Jimbo talks Robatoy into selling him a
countertop uninstalled, no warranty. Jimbo gets his countertop home
(probably asked Rob to deliver it because he doesn't have truck) and
starts the install. He exercises Rob's telephone and patience for three
days with questions, requests to borrow tools and finally to come over
and help on Sunday afternoon during the game. Finally, because his
homemade cabinets aren't level the countertop breaks. Jimbo calls Rob
and says "the countertop was defective, it broke". Rob says, "That's
unheard of, they don't break for no reason, and besides, you pestered
me for weeks until I agreed to sell the thing to you with NO WARRANTY".
Jimbo says " You're a liar and a cheat, and I'm going to tell everyone
I know that you're a dishonest businessman". Jimbo then proceeds to use
the power of the internet to unjustly slander Rob's business and the
manufacturer as well. That kind of press could put a small business
under.

This happens all the time in every industry. As a do-it-yourselfer, I
try very hard to learn and use the methods and tools a qualified pro
would use, and I suspect you are the same way. But for every one of us,
there are ten Jimbo's out there.

I'll bet the pros on this board could relate a hundred or more stories
very similar to this one.

[email protected] wrote:

>
> You may not want to accept it, but manufacturers and distributors are
> perfectly within their rights to choose their desired method of going
> to market. Sure, sure, they are protecting their profits to a degree,
> but they are also steering clear of high risk customers. If the product
> requires special skills to use/install they avoid a great deal of
> trouble (read COST) by restricting sales to a network of professionals.
>
> The typical wrecker is way above average as a do-it-yourselfer and you
> have to remember that most people are not like most of us. These
> manufacturers are considering the mainstream do-it-yourselfer, whose
> skills and experience are way below yours, and worse, way below what he
> thinks they are.
>
> So here's the scenario: Jimbo talks Robatoy into selling him a
> countertop uninstalled, no warranty. Jimbo gets his countertop home
> (probably asked Rob to deliver it because he doesn't have truck) and
> starts the install. He exercises Rob's telephone and patience for three
> days with questions, requests to borrow tools and finally to come over
> and help on Sunday afternoon during the game. Finally, because his
> homemade cabinets aren't level the countertop breaks. Jimbo calls Rob
> and says "the countertop was defective, it broke". Rob says, "That's
> unheard of, they don't break for no reason, and besides, you pestered
> me for weeks until I agreed to sell the thing to you with NO WARRANTY".
> Jimbo says " You're a liar and a cheat, and I'm going to tell everyone
> I know that you're a dishonest businessman". Jimbo then proceeds to use
> the power of the internet to unjustly slander Rob's business and the
> manufacturer as well. That kind of press could put a small business
> under.
>
> This happens all the time in every industry. As a do-it-yourselfer, I
> try very hard to learn and use the methods and tools a qualified pro
> would use, and I suspect you are the same way. But for every one of us,
> there are ten Jimbo's out there.
>
> I'll bet the pros on this board could relate a hundred or more stories
> very similar to this one.

Well put, Tom. Excellent.

Thanks for that.

Rob

J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:08:29 -0600, Patriarch wrote:
>
> > "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> >>
> >>> Somebody wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
> >>> > might underbid you.
> >>>
> >>> If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
> >>> equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
> >>> in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
> >>> training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
> >>> apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.
> >>>
> >>> After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
> >>> in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.
> >>
> >> Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
> >> hiring you?
> >>
> >
> > How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high
> > pressure laminate, even mahogany?
> >
> > bowing back out...
>
> All fine for a variety of purposes but who said I was making a counter?
>
> My view on it is that Corian and the like are materials that can be used
> to make countertops and can also be used for other purposes, just as wood
> can. But by preventing anyone but countertop installers from buying it
> in anything but small precut sizes one is prevented from using it for any
> purpose other than countertops.
>
> > Patriarch
>
>
>
> --
> X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

If you need something less than a full sheet, why not visit your local
fabrication shop? I found one locally who sold me a 3' x 5' "scrap"
piece of Corian for $50. It's enough to get me through 2 largeish
projects (router table and kitchen island). At that price, if I need
another piece, I know I'll be going back for more when I need to build
something else. I've been working with my piece for a couple weeks now,
and it's really neat stuff. I still can't get over how heavy it is.

Seriously, if you don't need to finish all your countertops, just call
your local fabrication shop. If you don't know one offhand, call any
kitchen counter shop and ask them who does their countertops for them.
That's what I did, and the scrap I bought was only one of a large
number of pieces just sitting outside in the elements waiting for
someone to buy it up.

Incidentally, for those of you interested in this stuff for turning,
what size is the smallest useful piece for you to use? I may have some
scraps I can give away when I'm done with these projects. I have the
1/2" kind, it's white with greyish specks in it.

-Nathan

Frank Boettcher wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:06:13 -0700, Willi <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
>>discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
>>for the DIY.
>>
>>
>>Any products available for the DIY?
>>
>>Willi
>
>
>
> Solid surface producers liscence their installers, in their opinion to
> control quality and limit warranty, in my opinion to hold prices up.
> I would prefer a method to buy sheet stock that would be without
> warranty if not liscenced.
>
> That said:
>
> http://www.solid-surface-kits.com/
>
> I have not used them, only considered it.
>
> Frank


Thanks Frank

I Googled them but I also heard about a person would was unable to even
get samples from them. I'd be interested but I'd like to find someone
who has used them.

Willi

I've watched the process and especially in my case a simple straight run
of about ten feet, it's not really that difficult. DEFINITELY not as
difficult as making the cabinets. There is always the chance that you'll
do things incorrectly but that is always the case with a DIY. It's not
like the mistake will be lethal!!!!

Since you make your living doing it I understand that you like things as
they are.

Willi

On 17 Nov 2006 07:31:07 -0800, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Willi wrote:
>> I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
>> discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
>> for the DIY.
>>
>>
>> Any products available for the DIY?
>>
>
>It simply doesn't lend itself to DIY-ers.

<snipped some stuff>

Local cabinet and countertop maker was our "prototype" shop. That is
whenever we had something new we wanted to try out on a machine we
would place it in his shop and let him try to wear it out. Would stop
by every so often to evaluate the condition of the machine(s) and talk
to the operators to get opinions. Also had the opportunity to spend a
lot of time with the solid surface fabricators, mostly young guys,
older guys seemed to stay with the cabinets.

He also would give us sink cutouts and scrap pieces to play with.

My conclusion, it is not without some need for skill and knowledge and
some specialty equipment, but not rocket science and certainly not
outside of the abilities of a good woodworker.

You might notice that I said I wish I could at least buy it without
warranty and take the risk myself. If the manufacturer is so worried
about the potential problems, and they did occur, that would be a way
to avoid the risk.

Frank

>r
>www.topworks.ca

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> For now I am raking in the megabucks and
> buying my town, city block by city block. Ordered a new Bentley and a
> Gulfstream IV jet as well.
> I'm going to paint great big fucking Corian logos all over them too.
>

Care to sub out painting those logos? I'm still trying to pay off the kid's
college tuition before I can move on to buying up my town. Can you get the
wings off them Gulfstreams so they'll fit in my garage?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Robatoy" wrote

> ....Right....
> After 24 years, the stuff will likely never catch on. DuPont, Samsung,
> Pyrotech, Wilsonart, are all clueless. They all built 20 to 50 million
> dollar plants because they don't think it will catch on either.
>
> I don't think laminate flooring stands a chance. <G>
>

Rob,

I think part of the problem lies with the total self-entitlement attitude
that is becoming more common. My FIL has (on occasion) issued the same
lament with regard to the electric and gas utilities he uses.

In both cases, my argument is this ... "If you think the prices are too high
(whether for electricity, gas, solid surface counter top material ...
whatever) then feel free to make your own". In the case of electricity ...
buy yourself generating equipment, build the infrastructure, and enjoy.

I suspect that no one is going to try to build an extrusion plant to make 20
feet of counter top material ... but hey, that's their option.


***

What REALLY bugs me (long list to follow) is first that many people view
their own labors (labours?) as priceless, yet hold in complete contempt
anyone else's talents, trade, skill set, etc. People that do not even
understand the basics of the material science you've spent years mastering
feel confident to tell you just how wrong you are. Sigh ... you've got a
thicker skin than I do ... My hat is off to you.

My second item (and I'll hold it to two today) is that this is a WOODWORKING
newsgroup, and the people stirring up the noise level have been here for
quite some time. Make your countertop out of wood and quit whining about the
availability of raw materials. Find alternatives, get back to the shop and
make something out of wood, and share the experience.

***

Hang in there Rob ... and if you get down this way ... remember to bring a
couple of sink cutouts with you so we can experiment with the ShopBot. The
door is always open, and the beer will be cold.

Regards,

Rick

J. Clarke wrote:

> Georgia Tech '79.

Rookie.

> Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing
> counters for a living?

My guess is the freedom to screw up and just maybe make a $ while
doing it.

Lew Hodgett, PE

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
>> Somebody wrote:
>>
>> > Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
>> > might underbid you.
>>
>> If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
>> equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
>> in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
>> training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
>> apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.
>>
>> After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
>> in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.
>
> Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
> hiring you?
>

How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high
pressure laminate, even mahogany?

bowing back out...

Patriarch

Somebody wrote:

> Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
> might underbid you.

If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.

After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Happens every day.

Lew

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> The problem isn't the price, the problem is the availability. One can buy
> a generator if one wants to go that route, or one can buy the materials
> and parts to make one. But try to buy solid surface if you aren't an
> authorized installer.
>
You CAN buy the material direct from the manufacturer ... but you have to
play by their rules, NOT YOURS. If you want, you too can get the factory
training, buy the proper tools, and then become an authorized installer and
buy the materials you need.

Of course, the cost is probably higher than you'd like ... but it IS your
choice.

> It's not an issue of his being wrong about the "material science"
> (althought "material science" is a different field related to structural
> design), the issue is that he doesn't want anybody but him and others who
> are "authorized" to be able to buy solid surface even if the application
> is one that is outside of his line of business.

Materials Science is probably a better fit ... pardon the dropped "s".

Perhaps, if your need is indeed outside the normal use, you could engage the
manufacturer in a discussion of what would be necessary to protect their
product name while satisfying a (perhaps) new market opening up.You'd be
wise to engage someone else to perform the negotiations, however, based on
your actions to date in this forum. Not a slam by any means, just an
observation.



> The problem is not with cost or with skills but with the attitude of the
> manufacturer that you must prove that you are worthy before they will
> deign to sell you their wonderful product.
>

You have the SAME attitude the solid-surface manufacturers have ... just at
the polar ends of the scale. They don't want their product's (or their)
reputation diminished by those who don't follow their instructions regarding
installation. You don't want to play their game by their rules. Fair enough
... you don't get to play (it IS their ball, after all).


> How would you feel if the glue manufacturers got together and refused to
> sell glue to anybody who wasn't "authorized"? How about the nail
> manufacturers or the screw manufacturers or the paint manufacturers? How
> about if the lumber mills refused to sell wood to anyone who wasn't
> "authorized"? After all, not everybody knows how to design for wood
> movement or apply clamping pressure or cut a proper mortise and we can't
> have substandard work degrading the reputation of the product now can we?
>
> See how empty those arguments are when applied to something other than
> solid surface?
>

You assume collusion between the different solid surface manufacturers, you
allude to price-fixing, but you don't provide any supporting proof. If you
feel that the manufacturers are price-fixing, feel free to contact the FTC
and file a complaint. As to your comments about screw, nail, glue or paint
manufacturers refusing to sell their products to untrained individuals ...
it already happens. Lumber yard just up the street refuses to sell to anyone
without an established business relationship with them. Why? In the former
case, proper training in the handling, storing and use of the materials is
required by the technology involved. In the latter case, they just don't
want to bother with DIY types, because it's such a pain to deal in small
quantities, put up with the problems brought about by the lack of
understanding of the materials involved, and because they don't want to work
weekends.

Now, I'm pretty sure that the lumber yard you buy your wood from doesn't
care what you do with the wood ... being a generic agricultural product
easily obtainable by anyone with a piece of steel. The solid surface
manufacturers are dealing with their propriatary compound and manufacturing
process, coupled with a long-term warranty with their end-customers. If you
buy countertop material, install it in a house you are flipping, and in one
or two years this countertop has a problem ... well, you're long gone and
the manufacturer is listening to the homeowner (or more likely, the
homeowner's lawyer) about damages. The manufacturer's only fault was selling
you the material, yet they end up footing the bill for your misdeed.

My point? They DON'T have to do business with you, and in many cases they
WON'T.

>
> Now, suppose you find that you can do wonderful things with solid surface
> and the ShopBot and then Rob kicks off and you can't get the material
> anymore. What is that going to do to your attitude?
>

If Rob kicked off as you so poorly put it, I'd miss his wit, his reasonable
ability to articulate even difficult subjects to most of the readers here,
and his sense of humor (humour) but I won't change my attitude about Rob or
about solid surface material. You see, to me, this is what I do to relax and
have fun while being creative. I don't get all wrapped up because someone
won't give me what I want, I move on to something else.

I really must have slept through Social Studies in school, because I really
fail to see where ANYONE is entitled to get what they want just by plunking
down money and insisting. Not saying that you do that ... that is the
perception I get from the tone of your writing. I don't mean to be
dismissive (though it often comes across that way) ... you are either going
to have to play by the existing rules, or gently establish new ones
agreeable to both you AND the solid surface manufacturers, else they are
going to ignore you.

With regard to the ShopBot and solid surface materials, I already know the
ShopBot can do wonderful things unimaginable to most ... the key to that
particular paragraph was to entice Rob to "come on down" and get some
run-time on a very nice piece of equipment so that he'll head over to Durham
and buy one to take home with him. I like sharing my enthusiasm about
woodworking, technology, etc. with others, and try to be encouraging. There
is always room for more positive, encouraging words ... both here on the
w(rec)k, and in the "real" world.


Regards,


Rick

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 07:31:07 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> Willi wrote:
>> I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
>> discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
>> for the DIY.
>>
>>
>> Any products available for the DIY?
>>
>
> It simply doesn't lend itself to DIY-ers.
> The distributors will only sell to certified fabricators.
> There are some polyester based fly-by-nights who'll take anybody's
> money, but the reputable 100% acrylic products such as Wilsonart
> Gibraltar, Corian, Staron and Meganite insist on being able to extend
> their 10-year warranties. That includes expert fabrication AND
> installation.
>
> Adhesive chemistry and dust control are just some of the issues which
> are simply not in the realm of an amateur.
>
> Besides, those of us who have dedicated a lot of time and money to
> become experts won't take well to some distributor 'back-dooring'
> product to the end user. We would turf that product out on its ass in a
> heartbeat. The distributors know that and therefore would rather deal
> with us. A position I wholeheartedly support.

And how much do you make a year installing solid surface?


--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:05:45 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 07:31:07 -0800, Robatoy wrote:
>>
>> > Willi wrote:
>> >> I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
>> >> discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
>> >> for the DIY.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Any products available for the DIY?
>> >>
>> >
>> > It simply doesn't lend itself to DIY-ers.
>> > The distributors will only sell to certified fabricators.
>> > There are some polyester based fly-by-nights who'll take anybody's
>> > money, but the reputable 100% acrylic products such as Wilsonart
>> > Gibraltar, Corian, Staron and Meganite insist on being able to extend
>> > their 10-year warranties. That includes expert fabrication AND
>> > installation.
>> >
>> > Adhesive chemistry and dust control are just some of the issues which
>> > are simply not in the realm of an amateur.
>> >
>> > Besides, those of us who have dedicated a lot of time and money to
>> > become experts won't take well to some distributor 'back-dooring'
>> > product to the end user. We would turf that product out on its ass in a
>> > heartbeat. The distributors know that and therefore would rather deal
>> > with us. A position I wholeheartedly support.
>>
>> And how much do you make a year installing solid surface?
>>
> I could tell you what I make fabricating and installing solid surface,
> but then I would have to shoot you. It is THAT much of a secret. <G>

So you _do_ have a profit motive for maintaining the status quo. You do
realize that that makes everything you say suspect.



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 12:01:03 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> Frank Boettcher wrote:
>>[snipped for brevity].
>>
>> My conclusion, it is not without some need for skill and knowledge and
>> some specialty equipment, but not rocket science and certainly not
>> outside of the abilities of a good woodworker.
>>
>
>
> You are absolutely right in saying that it isn't rocket science. It is
> all common sense...and therein lies the rub. Common sense is not
> common. My common sense took me 20 years to accumulate and I still
> encounter head-scratchers. A 'thinking' woodworker would not have any
> problems making a countertop..assuming he applies all the rules from
> the stained glass community as well..stuff like inside corners must
> have ample radius. All stress risers must be smooth and polished.
> Seams must be 3" away from any corners. Cook-top inside corners must be
> doubled up with bevelled plates. When making front edges, the strip on
> the front edge must be very smooth and dropped into a very smooth
> rabbet. Clamping must be done with spring clamps, about 40 for a
> 10-foot run.... over clamping will starve the joint. Seams must be
> dead-nuts vertically as well as the faces must be accurate. The amount
> of pressure on the seam when adhering must be within a certain range,
> over-pressure starves the joint, under-pressure looks terrible. Never
> screw down to the cabinets, it must float. Allow 1/4" per 120" for
> expansion. Never use a belt sander on a seam. Do not run seams through
> a sink or cook-top cut-out or over a dishwasher. Line the cook-top
> cutout with heavy gauge aluminum heatsink. Always use a holesaw with
> very sharp teeth to cut holes for the taps. I know I am probably
> forgetting a dozen other 'musts'...but you get to figure them out over
> the next 20 years like I did. Stuff like router-bit speed and
> feed-rates when making the rabbet for a professional looking edge. We
> haven't even started to talk about undermounting sinks in a variety of
> ways. Then, when you're all done, you get to sand the whole
> thing...evenly..no patterns from the sanding path... no
> snaketracks.....

Suppose he doesn't do all that? Then what? Does the universe collapse
into a point singularity? Does the counter explode? Does he get cancer?
Does the cat turn into an 8 foot tall monster and eat him?

If somebody was likely to die or be seriously injured if one screwed up
the installation of a countertop then there might be some justice to your
viewpoint, but as things stand it seems like you're saying "If you try
this then you might screw up so don't try". One could say the same thing
about just about anything else in life from marriage to driving to making
pukey ducks.

> Polevaulting isn't rocket science either. Try it sometime.

Compare and constrast the worst likely outcome of a screwed up attempt at
pole vaulting and a screwed up attempt at installing your own solid
surface and then tell me if you think that this was really an apt analogy.



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 14:22:31 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> So you _do_ have a profit motive for maintaining the status quo. You do
>> realize that that makes everything you say suspect.
>
> Why does that make everything I say suspect?

Because you have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

> I have every right to
> protect the business I have built up.

Yes, you do, and that is the problem--one wonders how much of what you say
is in fact addressing real problems and how much of it is putting up a
smokescreen to protect your business.

> And as long as I have the
> commercial clout to make the distributors see things my way, I will use
> it. If you begrudge me that, what does that make you?

Human?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how a few DIY counter installers
are going to harm your business any more than do-it-yourself furniture
makers are harming Stickley. If a DIYer can't get solid surface he's not
going to come to you for an installation, he's just going to not use solid
surface.

--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 15:18:11 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> On Nov 17, 5:51 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> piped up and chirped:
>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
>> And as long as I have the> commercial clout to make the distributors see things my way, I will use
>> > it. If you begrudge me that, what does that make you?
>
>>Suspicious of everything you say.
>
>
> I was thinking more along the lines of un-American. Free enterprise and
> all that.

If you believed in free enterprise then you wouldn't want to have a
protected market.



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 19:21:59 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [snip].
>>If you believed in free enterprise then you wouldn't want to have a
>> protected market.
>
> That is *if* you assume that the protection is because of profits and
> price.
> It is not.
> The manufacturers' warranties include fabrication and installation. If
> something goes wrong during 10 years (and often beyond), it is covered.
> In many cases when the home-owner screws up (a red-hot cast iron frying
> pan, for instance) the warranty is still covered as a matter of
> courtesy. I have repaired, at no cost to the home-owner, screw ups made
> by OTHER bad fabricators who allowed unqualified workers do stupid
> things, like cutting out cook-tops with a jigsaw. The manufacturer and
> I, collectively, sign up for a decade with the customer.

That's your story. My story is that it's because of profits and price.
If it was because of warranty issues then the manufacturers could easily
sell the product without warranty.

> The manufacturers do not want their product name tarnished by bad
> performance out in the field regardless of the cause.

So you say.

> I call it fair to get a decent buck for a job well done. I do not want
> to compete with people who lack the skill and commitment to uphold the
> integrity of the product.

That's all well and good, but nobody is asking for "a job well done",
they're asking for the materials to do the job themselves.

> I am taking care of my customers in my neighbourhood and it is important
> to me that my business stays healthy and up-to-date; that costs money
> too.

Yeah, gotta keep up with those cutting-edge developments. Right. Sure.

> The prices are established by using very basic formulas: cost of
> materials, overhead, wages and a profit. If I push the profit margins
> too high, people won't buy my countertops. I have to stay competitive
> with granite and e-Stone (Quartz)

Well that's nice but I don't want your work, I want the material.

> If, for whatever reason, I can't make a profit, I bail. The
> manufacturers make sure that guys like me don't lose interest. This is
> not complicated.

Only because you benefit from it to my detriment.



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:02:12 +0000, Rick M wrote:

> "Robatoy" wrote
>
>> ....Right....
>> After 24 years, the stuff will likely never catch on. DuPont, Samsung,
>> Pyrotech, Wilsonart, are all clueless. They all built 20 to 50 million
>> dollar plants because they don't think it will catch on either.
>>
>> I don't think laminate flooring stands a chance. <G>
>>
>
> Rob,
>
> I think part of the problem lies with the total self-entitlement attitude
> that is becoming more common. My FIL has (on occasion) issued the same
> lament with regard to the electric and gas utilities he uses.
>
> In both cases, my argument is this ... "If you think the prices are too high
> (whether for electricity, gas, solid surface counter top material ...
> whatever) then feel free to make your own". In the case of electricity ...
> buy yourself generating equipment, build the infrastructure, and enjoy.
>
> I suspect that no one is going to try to build an extrusion plant to make 20
> feet of counter top material ... but hey, that's their option.

The problem isn't the price, the problem is the availability. One can buy
a generator if one wants to go that route, or one can buy the materials
and parts to make one. But try to buy solid surface if you aren't an
authorized installer.

> ***
>
> What REALLY bugs me (long list to follow) is first that many people view
> their own labors (labours?) as priceless, yet hold in complete contempt
> anyone else's talents, trade, skill set, etc. People that do not even
> understand the basics of the material science you've spent years
> mastering feel confident to tell you just how wrong you are. Sigh ...
> you've got a thicker skin than I do ... My hat is off to you.

It's not an issue of his being wrong about the "material science"
(althought "material science" is a different field related to structural
design), the issue is that he doesn't want anybody but him and others who
are "authorized" to be able to buy solid surface even if the application
is one that is outside of his line of business.

The problem is not with cost or with skills but with the attitude of the
manufacturer that you must prove that you are worthy before they will
deign to sell you their wonderful product.

> My second item (and I'll hold it to two today) is that this is a
> WOODWORKING newsgroup, and the people stirring up the noise level have
> been here for quite some time. Make your countertop out of wood and quit
> whining about the availability of raw materials. Find alternatives, get
> back to the shop and make something out of wood, and share the
> experience.

How would you feel if the glue manufacturers got together and refused to
sell glue to anybody who wasn't "authorized"? How about the nail
manufacturers or the screw manufacturers or the paint manufacturers? How
about if the lumber mills refused to sell wood to anyone who wasn't
"authorized"? After all, not everybody knows how to design for wood
movement or apply clamping pressure or cut a proper mortise and we can't
have substandard work degrading the reputation of the product now can we?

See how empty those arguments are when applied to something other than
solid surface?

> ***
>
> Hang in there Rob ... and if you get down this way ... remember to bring
> a couple of sink cutouts with you so we can experiment with the ShopBot.
> The door is always open, and the beer will be cold.

Now, suppose you find that you can do wonderful things with solid surface
and the ShopBot and then Rob kicks off and you can't get the material
anymore. What is that going to do to your attitude?

> Regards,
>
> Rick



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 17:50:06 +0000, Lowell Holmes wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:02:12 +0000, Rick M wrote:
>>snip
>
>
>
>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Rick
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt
>
> What a ridiculous string! You guys should be making shavings instead of B.S.
> :-)

Would like to, of solid surface <g>.

Can't even get the stuff to turn pens out of unless it's precut into small
blanks.



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On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:07:34 +0000, Rick M wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote
<snip>

>> How would you feel if the glue manufacturers got together and refused to
>> sell glue to anybody who wasn't "authorized"? How about the nail
>> manufacturers or the screw manufacturers or the paint manufacturers? How
>> about if the lumber mills refused to sell wood to anyone who wasn't
>> "authorized"? After all, not everybody knows how to design for wood
>> movement or apply clamping pressure or cut a proper mortise and we can't
>> have substandard work degrading the reputation of the product now can we?
>>
>> See how empty those arguments are when applied to something other than
>> solid surface?
>>
>
> You assume collusion between the different solid surface manufacturers, you
> allude to price-fixing,

I made no mention of price fixing or of price at all.

But since it's clear that you're addressing what you want to believe I
said rather than what I said, there is obviously no purpose in attempting
to continue discussion with either you or "robatoy".

<snip>



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On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 12:10:18 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The problem isn't the price, the problem is the availability. One can buy
>> a generator if one wants to go that route, or one can buy the materials
>> and parts to make one. But try to buy solid surface if you aren't an
>> authorized installer.
>
> We simply do not want anybody to expose the product in an inferior way.
> It is not good for the product's image.

You keep claiming this. Maybe if you claim it long enough somebody will
believe you. What you do not want is for someone to undercut your price.

> (This is aside from the fact
> that the polyisocyanide
> and other nasty stuff in the adhesives/hardener is very nasty stuff
> prior to reaction.)

Care to provide a link to an MSDS for a solid surface adhesive/hardener
thata contains "polyisocyanide"?

>> It's not an issue of his being wrong about the "material science"
>> (althought "material science" is a different field related to
>> structural design), the issue is that he doesn't want anybody but him
>> and others who are "authorized" to be able to buy solid surface even if
>> the application is one that is outside of his line of business.
>
> That is simply not true. Any countertop shop can buy the strips to edge
> their counters or
> for back splashes. Most will sell the material wide enough to make
> window sills.

And how about large pieces for use in something other than countertops?

>> The problem is not with cost or with skills but with the attitude of
>> the manufacturer that you must prove that you are worthy before they
>> will deign to sell you their wonderful product.
>
> Now THAT is a crock. The manufacturers do not approach this from an
> elitist standpoint.

Sez you.

> Read my lips: The product must be fabricated and installed by somebody
> skilled and trained enough
> in order for the manufacturer to underwrite the warranty.

In other words somebody who paid the manufacturer for the privilege. And
once again what is the objection to selling it to someone who does not
want or need a warranty?

> It is risk
> management as well as a way to assure that the application of the
> product is within the guidelines of the product's technical
> specification.

Uh huh. If concrete manufacturers had had that attitude Fallingwater
would never have been built.

> Its structural strength limits the application as well.

The same is true for pine. I guess that we should restrict distribution
of that to "authorized installers" as well.

> The fire rating comes into play. If Mr. Clarke wants to build a
> fireplace mantle out of it, and it collapses into the fire, the
> liability will not be assumed by the manufacturer. You, sir, are simply
> not qualified to make judgements as to when and when not to use that
> product in any specific application.

And you claim that you are not "elitist". So where did you get your
engineering degree smart boy?

And are you now asserting that your wonderful solid surface is such a
fire hazard that it can't be used in an application in which a piece of
pine will serve adequately?

>> How would you feel if the glue manufacturers got together and refused
>> to sell glue to anybody who wasn't "authorized"? How about the nail
>> manufacturers or the screw manufacturers or the paint manufacturers?
>> How about if the lumber mills refused to sell wood to anyone who wasn't
>> "authorized"? After all, not everybody knows how to design for wood
>> movement or apply clamping pressure or cut a proper mortise and we
>> can't have substandard work degrading the reputation of the product now
>> can we?
>>
>> See how empty those arguments are when applied to something other than
>> solid surface?
>
> You forgot one. Prove to me you know how to handle toilet paper and I'll
> sell you a porkchop.

Can you say non-sequitur? Now address the issue smart boy.

> Maybe somebody else wants to chase your red herrings and salute your
> straw men.
> I will not.

In other words you don't have a clue how to counter the argument.

>> Now, suppose you find that you can do wonderful things with solid
>> surface and the ShopBot and then Rob kicks off and you can't get the
>> material anymore. What is that going to do to your attitude?
>>
> Someone as rational as Rick? I'd sign his tests in a heartbeat.

Yeah, but you see, since you kicked it in this scenario you're not
around to "sign his tests". You do comprehend "kicked it" do you not? In
this scenario you've passed on, you've ceased to be, you've expired and
gone to meet your maker, you are a late solid surface fabricator, you're a
stiff, bereft of life, you rest in peace, if you hadn't spilled the
polyisocyanide and glued yourself to a countertop you'd be pushing up
daisies, you've rung down the curtain and joined the Choir Invisible, you
are an ex-solid surface fabricator.

But I find it interesting that you'd "sign his tests in a heartbeat"
without first requiring that he actually undergo them. Looks to me like
you're admitting that it's a buddy network and not something based on
objective criteria.

> Then I'd
> take a truck to Rick's and put on three shifts of CNC operators and make
> certain products of my design out of solid surface material which would
> yield a substantial amount of eBay sales within a year. (I'd set it all
> up myself, but there's only one of me.) *which reminds me, I need
> somebody to turn me 2 pieces 18" diameter x 6" thick out of maple.* I
> pay well.

But you see, you kicked it, so you don't get to do any of that, and
furthermore, note what you just said, you'd do it to put a buck in your
own pocket. Have you ever done _anything_ in your life for any reason
other than to make a buck?

> For further info:
> http://www.issfa.org/

Geez, now you have a lobby?

--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 19:24:53 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> Mr Clarke:
>
> It is now obvious that your sole goal is to perpetuate an argument
> based on what you think is right in that limited mind of yours.

Right and wrong don't enter into it. This is not about morality, it is
about manufacturers of one product treating that product very differently
in the market from every other kind of product in that market.

> For a while you had me tricked into thinking that you were open to
> reason.

I am, do you have any to present that isn't equal justification for
restricting the sale of _any_ construction material?

> It seems that I have wasted my time and I will no longer indulge you.

Issuing empty arguments in defense of your own financial interests is
always a waste of time. Next time you're tempted to try it remember this.

> Have a nice day.

If you are actually done with your long-winded apologetics for the
solid-surface industry then I'm having a very nice day.

> PS Yes, I do have a degree in engineering. You?

Georgia Tech '79. Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing
counters for a living?




--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 20:38:14 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

> On Nov 18, 10:36 pm, "CW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:
>
> Now, let's quote the entire statement, shall we?
>
> Try to follow this scenario, if you can allow yourself to see things
> from another perspective.
> If I am faced with the fact that my distributor is shipping to a new,
> unestablished, fabricator who is in my neck of the woods, I have to ask
>
> myself the question why. If then, the new guy starts undercutting my
> pricing, I have to ask myself if I can afford to cut the margins to the
>
> point where it simply isn't worth the hassle of operating a business. I
>
> am not some phylantropical institution no matter how much the likes of
> Mr. Clarke would like me to be.

Huh? Who has asked you to be a "phylantropical institution"?

Look, moron, I don't want to compete with you, and it will be a cold day
in Hell before I buy anything from you. What I want is to be able to buy
a product at a fair price. That's all. But since the stuff is so
delicate and fragile and likely to burst into flames at the drop of a hat,
I don't want anything to do with it at this point. You've turned me off
of it entirely by pointing out at length what utter crap it is.

> Next thing you know, I stop ordering from that distributor. Meanwhile,
> the new fabricator's bills are due...he's not making enough money to
> operate a business, so he goes under..

So you cut off your nose to spite your face and now you're whining
about it.

> Then you, CW wrote this:
>>So you're saying that it is better for you and the manufacturer to keep
>>the
>> tight little "club" going to ensure high prices and lack of
>> competition.
>
> So where am I saying that? Nowhere did I mention that we ensure high
> prices and lack of competition. In fact, the opposite is true. because I
> get to operate by myself, I can cut my prices because I know I will have
> enough business to maintain my business model.

In other words you benefit from lack of competition.

> There simply isn't any
> room for me to cut my prices further. Which is why I know that if
> anybody tried to sell for less than I do, they wouldn't be able to stay
> in business, because they would be operating at a loss.

And this is a problem for you because?

> And www.issfa.org is an outfit which shares all the best techniques to
> produce a better product with less labour so that we can make it even
> more affordable to the consumers.
>
> You, sir, are barking up the wrong tree.
>
> It is a combination of my low prices and quality craftsmanship that
> keeps my shop going, fuelled by the best advertizing ever: word of
> mouth.

Uh huh. Sure.


--
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On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> Somebody wrote:
>
> > Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
> > might underbid you.
>
> If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
> equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
> in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
> training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
> apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.
>
> After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
> in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.

Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
hiring you?




--
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On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:56:15 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > Georgia Tech '79.
>
> Rookie.

<plonkee>

>
> > Now what's a smart boy like you doing installing
> > counters for a living?
>
> My guess is the freedom to screw up and just maybe make a $ while
> doing it.
>
> Lew Hodgett, PE



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 08:13:04 -0800, adrian wrote:

> Willi wrote:
>> I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
>> discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
>> for the DIY.
>>
>>
>> Any products available for the DIY?
>
> I bought and installed a Swanstone countertop for my bathroom vanity
> about 4 years ago. They were willing to sell to anybody, at least at
> the time. The material resembles Corian in appearance. I think it has
> quartz in it and may be tougher. I didn't have to do any seams or
> anything fancy for a bathroom, though I did get the integral sink with
> backsplash and I did have to cut it to fit. I cut it with a jigsaw but
> a regular jigsaw blade would have no teeth left after cutting about 5
> inches. (It would still cut even with rounded over nubs on the blade,
> but really slowly.) Note also that the sheet is only 1/4 inch thick
> with a thicker edge in front and occasional ribbing. I guess it's
> stronger than Corian and doesn't need to be 1/2 inch thick. I'm happy
> with the result.
>
> You might also consider installing soapstone which is supposed to be
> easily worked with woodworking tools but is less porous than granite.
> (No personal experience.)
>
> (I wouldn't put Corian in a kitchen that I was planning to use. It's
> too sensitive to heat. My mother-in-law's Corian has a huge crack in
> it where a hot pan was set. I heard that the instructions tell you not
> to put boiling water in your Corian sink---so how do you drain your
> pasta?)

And considering all the hoops that the authorized installers seem to be
saying that you have to jump through just to keep it from falling apart as
it sits there it must be unbelievably fragile.





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On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:08:29 -0600, Patriarch wrote:

> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> Somebody wrote:
>>>
>>> > Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
>>> > might underbid you.
>>>
>>> If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
>>> equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
>>> in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
>>> training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
>>> apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.
>>>
>>> After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
>>> in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.
>>
>> Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
>> hiring you?
>>
>
> How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high
> pressure laminate, even mahogany?
>
> bowing back out...

All fine for a variety of purposes but who said I was making a counter?

My view on it is that Corian and the like are materials that can be used
to make countertops and can also be used for other purposes, just as wood
can. But by preventing anyone but countertop installers from buying it
in anything but small precut sizes one is prevented from using it for any
purpose other than countertops.

> Patriarch



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:21:44 -0800, N Hurst wrote:

> J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 14:08:29 -0600, Patriarch wrote:
>>
>> > "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> > news:[email protected]:
>> >
>> >> On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 04:52:07 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Somebody wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> > Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
>> >>> > might underbid you.
>> >>>
>> >>> If somebody wants to duplicate my investment in the necessary
>> >>> equipment and supplies as well as the additional manpower investment
>> >>> in field in what the manufacturer appears to consider mandatory
>> >>> training of my personnel (Or is that just another way of defining an
>> >>> apprentice program?), they are welcome to do it.
>> >>>
>> >>> After making that investment, they are welcome to compete for business
>> >>> in my market area since we will both be on relatively equal footing.
>> >>
>> >> Why is it that you see the only alternatives to be competing with you or
>> >> hiring you?
>> >>
>> >
>> > How about buying a different, substitute good? Stone, quartz, high
>> > pressure laminate, even mahogany?
>> >
>> > bowing back out...
>>
>> All fine for a variety of purposes but who said I was making a counter?
>>
>> My view on it is that Corian and the like are materials that can be used
>> to make countertops and can also be used for other purposes, just as wood
>> can. But by preventing anyone but countertop installers from buying it
>> in anything but small precut sizes one is prevented from using it for any
>> purpose other than countertops.
>>
>> > Patriarch
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt
>
> If you need something less than a full sheet, why not visit your local
> fabrication shop? I found one locally who sold me a 3' x 5' "scrap"
> piece of Corian for $50. It's enough to get me through 2 largeish
> projects (router table and kitchen island). At that price, if I need
> another piece, I know I'll be going back for more when I need to build
> something else. I've been working with my piece for a couple weeks now,
> and it's really neat stuff. I still can't get over how heavy it is.

Because now I'm in the position of having to settle for whatever scrap he
has on hand instead of buying what I want.

If you want to make something else that matches your kitchen island and he
doesn't have another scrap of that same stuff available, then what?

> Seriously, if you don't need to finish all your countertops, just call
> your local fabrication shop. If you don't know one offhand, call any
> kitchen counter shop and ask them who does their countertops for them.
> That's what I did, and the scrap I bought was only one of a large number
> of pieces just sitting outside in the elements waiting for someone to
> buy it up.
>
> Incidentally, for those of you interested in this stuff for turning,
> what size is the smallest useful piece for you to use? I may have some
> scraps I can give away when I'm done with these projects. I have the
> 1/2" kind, it's white with greyish specks in it.
>
> -Nathan



--
X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

Seldom do I agree with J. Clark on anything but I do on this. Any material
(or any product, for that matter) can be screwed up by Joe Dipshit. High
pressure laminate, paint, varnish, shellac, glue, laminated flooring all
come to mind. Think about it, there are many, many more.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> [snip].
> >If you believed in free enterprise then you wouldn't want to have a
> > protected market.
>
> That is *if* you assume that the protection is because of profits and
> price.

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:06:13 -0700, Willi <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
>discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
>for the DIY.
>
>
>Any products available for the DIY?
>
>Willi


Solid surface producers liscence their installers, in their opinion to
control quality and limit warranty, in my opinion to hold prices up.
I would prefer a method to buy sheet stock that would be without
warranty if not liscenced.

That said:

http://www.solid-surface-kits.com/

I have not used them, only considered it.

Frank

On Fri, 17 Nov 2006 08:06:13 -0700, Willi <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I want to put in a Corian type countertop in my kitchen. However, I
>discovered that the ones I found locally (Corain etc ) aren't available
>for the DIY.
>
>
>Any products available for the DIY?

Hey Willi-

I haven't priced out Corian lately, but if Rob says it's directly
competing with Granite, I know you can get a granite slab for DIY
applications. Found a place a while back (though I don't have the
link anymore) that will ship you a rough slab (with a finished top)
complete with instructions for machining it using woodworking tools.
(IIRC, it required a circular saw with an abrasive blade installed,
and some masonry bits) Still too expensive for my budget, but it
might be just the ticket for you. Probably find it locally if you've
got a headstone carver near you as well.

Probably have to use a top-mount sink if you go that route, but at
least it's available- and it's really nice.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 14:02:12 +0000, Rick M wrote:
>snip




>> Regards,
>>
>> Rick
>
>
>
> --
> X:\Newsreaders\sig.txt

What a ridiculous string! You guys should be making shavings instead of B.S.
:-)

On 19 Nov 2006 09:04:05 -0800, "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Prometheus wrote:
>>
>>
>> I haven't priced out Corian lately, but if Rob says it's directly
>> competing with Granite, [snip]
>
>Granite and eStone are more money. The 'direct' competition is in terms
>of space.
>Something is going to end up on those kitchen and bathroom cabinets.
>Being it custom laminate or semiprecious stone, real butcher-block or
>stainless steel.
>I do not consider post-formed laminate, by the blank, competition; I
>don't go there.

Well sure, Rob- but he doesn't want to buy the services of an
installer, and can't buy the product. Looking at a different product
might be the way to go, even if it costs more- I know that if it were
me, I wouldn't hire someone for a DIY job, no matter how much better
that pro may be- so I hope you're not taking it as an attempt to lose
you business.

>The competition is for space and if you look at my web-site, you'll see
>that I have those bases covered too. Solid surface is a nice stepping
>stone between custom laminate and granite/eStone.
>
>When buying slabs of granite, make sure you get a good grade, because
>many 'look' the same, but can be full of fissures. Blue Pearl, for
>instance, can range from $ 900 to $ 1900 for a 5 x 10 slab from the
>same supplier. If you hang a sheet, and hit it with a mallet, it should
>ring like big bell. If it doesn't, run like hell.

Well, that's good advice, and something I didn't know. But will they
hang it for you to do a test like that?

>Maybe Mr, Clarke should look at concrete. That he can buy anywhere,
>assuming he doesn't open his mouth first.
>
>r
>
>Can't you feel the love?

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If a DIYer can't get solid surface he's not
> going to come to you for an installation, he's just going to not use solid
> surface.
>
True. Once the style changes to something else (it always does), you will
see it on the open market just to maintain sales.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
And as long as I have the
> commercial clout to make the distributors see things my way, I will use
> it. If you begrudge me that, what does that make you?
>
Suspicious of everything you say.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
> I call it fair to get a decent buck for a job well done. I do not want
> to compete with people who lack the skill and commitment to uphold the
> integrity of the product.

Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who might
underbid you.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> CW wrote:
> > "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > >
> > > On Nov 17, 7:00 pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >>
> > > I call it fair to get a decent buck for a job well done. I do not want
> > > to compete with people who lack the skill and commitment to uphold the
> > > integrity of the product.
> >
> > Sounds more like you don't want to have to compete with someone who
might
> > underbid you.
>
> Try to follow this scenario, if you can allow yourself to see things
> from another perspective.
> If I am faced with the fact that my distributor is shipping to a new,
> unestablished, fabricator who is in my neck of the woods, I have to ask
> myself the question why. If then, the new guy starts undercutting my
> pricing, I have to ask myself if I can afford to cut the margins to the
> point where it simply isn't worth the hassle of operating a business.

So you're saying that it is better for you and the manufacturer to keep the
tight little "club" going to ensure high prices and lack of competition.