"Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:09:37 GMT, "Leon"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>A jointer is NOT correctly used to clean up after a TS rip cut. To
>>maintain
>>uniform width you need a reference fence. If you saw does not leave a
>>shiny
>>smooth edge consider spending $100 for a premium quality blade and read a
>>book on tuning up your TS.
>
> I guess we'll have to disagree here Leon.
> If you have a well tuned saw and a well tuned joiner you can rip rails
> and stiles for an entire kitchen, join the edges and have a quite
> uniform stack of material waiting for assembly. The reference fence
> is still on the table saw but a properly tuned joiner will remove
> material consistently along the board's edge therefore maintaining
> uniformity.
That is not an absolute. Unless you maintain "perfect" feed pressure the
edge begins going off parallel with the first pass, perhaps not enough that
you would consider unacceptable.
I have a good number of quality blades but would never
> consider making face frames or doors without a joiner.
>
> BTW, I've never seen ANY blade (and I've used most brands) that will
> leave as good an edge as sharp joiner knives or a hand plane will.
The Forrest WWII on a well tuned saw will leace a surface that shines and
reflects like glass. That's what use.
Any particular reason?
Lew Hodgett wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
> > would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
> > yet. Thanks!
> >
>
> Planer.
>
> Lew
[email protected] wrote:
> Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
> would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
> yet. Thanks!
I bought a planer because it's possible to use it as a jointer, and
it's possible to use your table saw as a jointer, and it's possible to
joint yer wood with a hand plane. There's lots of ways to flatten a
board but not many ways to get all your stock to a precise thickness
with both surfaces parallel.
But it didn't take me long to really, REALLY want a good 8 inch
jointer. I got a lot of use out of the planer alone but it sure is a
joy having both. 400 is not a bad price for a planer but I think the
kind of jointer you'd get for that will give you more frustration than
help. I paid a little over 700 for my Griz G0586. They're about 800
now.
In a jointer, length of bed really matters.
If I had it to do over I'd still buy the planer first and force myself
to wait till I could afford a longbed jointer, or find one used.
Usually in hindsight I'd make changes but in that instance I still
think I did it right.
Damn, I wish one of these used jointers were in the Asheville, NC area!
Mike O. wrote:
> On 7 Dec 2006 18:31:33 -0800, "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
> >would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
> >yet. Thanks!
>
> Kinda depends on your needs.
> If you buy all of your hardwood already surfaced then you may not have
> as much need for a planer. If you do a lot of ripping you might use
> a joiner to clean up your sawed edges. Personally, I have more need
> for a joiner and would buy that first. YMMV.
>
> Mike O.
Can you enlighten a noob on some of these jointing methods. I'd assume
a hand planer would be one.
CW wrote:
> Planer. There are many ways of jointing without a jointer but thicknessing
> is rather difficult without a planer.
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
> > would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
> > yet. Thanks!
> >
[email protected] wrote:
> Damn, I wish one of these used jointers were in the Asheville, NC area!
Peter, I might be able to put you in touch with a really good jointer
(and other tools), in the Ashville area, for really cheap. Can I email
you directly?
Sonny
Mike O. wrote:
> BTW, I've never seen ANY blade (and I've used most brands) that will
> leave as good an edge as sharp joiner knives or a hand plane will.
>
My Powermatic joiner is properly set up with the knife height set with
Ed Bennetts TS-Aligner Jr. My blades are sharp, but I still get a
scalloped edge that requires much more sanding to clean up than the cut
left by my Freud Glue Line Rip blade on my tablesaw. I won't argue
that a hand plane leaves a smoother edge than either. I much prefer
using the cut edge from the table saw than a jointed edge. I still use
my jointer to give me a reference edge to go against the saw fence, but
I usually end up ripping that edge away before I'm done.
DonkeyHody
"Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit
there." - Will Rogers
On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 16:00:27 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>:~) This is mean but I am almost ROTFLMAO. Sorry Mike but while you
>probably do get the results that you are looking for you may one day learn
>that you can do way better than that when you learn to set your TS up
>correctly. The jointer IS NOT a dimensioning tool.
I've set up quite a number of table saws thank you and quite a few
joiners. I also know that my joiner knives leave fewer kerf marks
than my table saw.:-)
If you believe that the results you get with your table saw alone are
better than with the use of a joiner, I'll believe you.
Mike O.
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:02:44 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The fence on the jointer is used to make one of the edges adjacent to that
>flat face perpendicular to it.
>
>On long boards this is easier and faster on a TS with a jig.
>
I used to use an 8' straight edge and a router for that (long boards.)
Not since I got a serious jointer though.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> It was meant as a joke ... I inadvertently left off the smiley!!
>
> Sorry bout that, Mike ...
Yeah Mike, I am sorry too, I meant to say that it was mean of me to laugh
not what Swingman said was mean, just humorous. I find my fingers in my
mouth quite often when using a hammer. :~)
"George Max" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>I bought a planer because it's possible to use it as a jointer
>
> Wrong. It is *never* possible to use a planer as a jointer.
Wrong, tell that to the 200 BF of 8' long oak I have that was all rough cut
and not perfectly flat or straight.
>
> The two machines serve completely different functions.
From the factory, yes. With a jig, no.
The fence on the jointer is used to make one of the edges adjacent to that
flat face perpendicular to it.
On long boards this is easier and faster on a TS with a jig.
Various
> adjustments to the tables and fence on a jointer can vary the results
> from flat and perpendicular.
True
>
> The reason a planer cannot joint is that the pressure of the feed
> rollers can temporarily flatten the board so that it gets planed, but
> the board returns to it's formerly cupped/twisted/warped original
> shape after that pressure is relieved. Of course, if you're board is
> "flat enough" or you otherwise use any clever jigs or other
> contraptions to hold your board as it goes through the planer, you
> *might* get away with making the surfaces flat and reasonably parallel
> to each other.
You mention flat enough. If your board is not "flat enough" you should not
even consider using a jointer to flatten it. There will simply be too much
waste. Better to rip the piece on a band saw to get rid of most of the cup
or cross cut to a shorter length to get rid of most of the bow.
The planer jigs work really well.
"George" wrote in message
>
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Mike O." wrote in message
> >
> >> uniform stack of material waiting for assembly. The reference fence
> >> is still on the table saw but a properly tuned joiner will remove
> >> material consistently along the board's edge therefore maintaining
> >> uniformity.
> >
> > My experience is entirely different ... and my jointer is properly
tuned.
> >
> > The only way _I_ can guarantee that opposite edges are parallel is to
rip
> > an
> > opposite edge on a "properly tuned" table saw ... even the best set up
> > jointer simply will not guarantee that, IME.
> >
>
> Learn to use your jointer.
Look up above and learn to read.
>It removes, when properly used, the same amount
> of material all along the length of the board. Its "fence" is the outfeed
> table, remaining a constant distance above the infeed throughout, just as
> your tablesaw blade remains a constant distance from that fence. Only
> difference is the jointer is capable of taking out bow which might result
> from new tensioning of the narrower board as well.
>
> It's your woodworker's eye reading the board you're ripping that warns you
> when it might be necessary to rip two passes oversize. Sometimes even
> that's not enough.
FACT: If you are attempting to use a jointer to obtain parallel edges/faces,
you are misusing the tool.
While you are not a big enough fool to argue that point, as above, you will
step to the edge of doing so even though you DO know better.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06
"Leon" wrote in message
>
> "Swingman" wrote in message
> > But, I believe that you should try to keep your fingers out of your
mouth
> > in
> > the shop.
>
> :~) This is mean but I am almost ROTFLMAO.
It was meant as a joke ... I inadvertently left off the smiley!!
Sorry bout that, Mike ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06
"Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 7 Dec 2006 18:31:33 -0800, "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
>>would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
>>yet. Thanks!
>
> Kinda depends on your needs.
> If you buy all of your hardwood already surfaced then you may not have
> as much need for a planer. If you do a lot of ripping you might use
> a joiner to clean up your sawed edges. Personally, I have more need
> for a joiner and would buy that first. YMMV.
>
> Mike O.
Food for thought here.
A planer will allow different thickness stock that is not always available
at a reasonable price.
A jointer is NOT correctly used to clean up after a TS rip cut. To maintain
uniform width you need a reference fence. If you saw does not leave a shiny
smooth edge consider spending $100 for a premium quality blade and read a
book on tuning up your TS.
23 years ago I was under the assumption that I should have the jointer
first. I am now on my second planer and the jointer pretty much sets
collecting just.
EE Gads, I just scanned down the list and there sure are a lot of opinions
as to which machine to buy. I don't know that there is any real consensus
of opinion! But one thing for sure.... There are lots of opinions!
Let us know what you summarize from it all and what you decide to purchase!
Don Dando
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can you enlighten a noob on some of these jointing methods. I'd assume
> a hand planer would be one.
> CW wrote:
> > Planer. There are many ways of jointing without a jointer but
thicknessing
> > is rather difficult without a planer.
> >
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
> > > would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
> > > yet. Thanks!
> > >
>
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
> would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
> yet. Thanks!
>
Planer
I have had a jointer longer than a planer and have seriously considered on
several occasions of getting rid of the jointer to make more room.
Currently my jointer is more convenient to use than either of my planers or
my TS and choose to use it as a last resort.
With a very simple jig you can rip straight an edge on a board and with a
little more complicated jig plane flat a board on a planer.
"Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>>Besides, parallel edges/faces are not in the job description for a
>>jointer.
>>;)
>
> That's why you rip them first.
Geez.... Do you also run your plywood panels through the jointer after
cutting them ?????
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Can you enlighten a noob on some of these jointing methods. I'd assume
> a hand planer would be one.
Flatten a board with a sled and a planer. The sled essentially compensates
for high spots from the bottom of the board so that the board does not
flatten out or rock when going under the in feed roller of the planer.
Once that surface is flat, flip the board over and run through with out the
sled.
To straighten the edge of a board build a long narrow, 14" or so, and 8'
long sled with 2 toggle clamps. The clamps should be screwed to the sled
for easy adjustment for different width boards. Rip this sled straight on
the TS and then clamp the board to be straightened on the blade side of the
jig with the curved edge hanging over the edge of the jig. Use the rip
fence to guide the sled and adjust it so that the blade side of the sled is
at the edge of the blade. Now run the sled and board through and cut the
curved board straight.
This is actually easier faster and easier than using a jointer.
[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> If I had it to do over I'd still buy the planer first and force myself
> to wait till I could afford a longbed jointer, or find one used.
> Usually in hindsight I'd make changes but in that instance I still
> think I did it right.
Ibid.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
"Mike O." wrote in message
> >Besides, parallel edges/faces are not in the job description for a
jointer.
> >;)
>
> That's why you rip them first.
My experience is that in 35+years of cabinet making I've never found it
necessary to use a jointer to "clean up the edges" of any sawcuts I've made
when dimensioning stock for a project ... and particularly those made when
dimensioning stock for "rails and stiles".
With my always "batch cut" rails and stiles, I prefer that there be no
further "dimensioning" of my carefully ripped to width stock, no matter how
small, that would result from running them unnecessarily over a jointer.
> >And my Freud Glue-Line rip blade will consistently leave as good as edge
as
> >is necessary for any woodworking endeavor, if for some reason I feel my
> >Forrest WWII won't suffice.
>
> But, if you wipe a wet finger across that edge you will find the
> remnants of hairline kerf marks. At some point in your building
> process I'm sure you address those.
But, I believe that you should try to keep your fingers out of your mouth in
the shop.
> >Your mileage may obviously vary ...
>
> Obviously, it does.:-)
Probably due to the fact that my holy grail/focus when cabinet making is
"square", not stock free of "hairline kerf marks".
> I might suggest that not that long ago, before we had the quality of
> blades we have today, every rail and stile made was either run through
> a joiner to remove kerf marks or attacked by a hand plane.
You may suggest, but before I'd take it as gospel I'd prefer to see your
qualifications for making the assertion?
> Another thing to note is that in any cabinet manufacturing facility
> that I've been through, sawed edges are addressed in some similar
> manner. While rails and stiles are cut with a computerized saw, the
> material edges are cleaned up in some way prior to assembly by either
> a big automated joiner or planer or some type of sander. A sawed edge
> is never the final edge.
To that, I'd say that you need to get out to a few more cabinet shops. ;)
> IMO the joiner is used less and less because people are afraid to use
> it, don't know how to use it and/or don't know how to set one up.
> While today's blades may (for some) eliminate the need to join edges,
> the process has been done since the first block plane and then when
> some guy figured out how to get the blade from his plane spinning fast
> enough, it was done with a joiner.
> Some of us are still doing it.
I will take that as stated ... and opinion to which you are certainly
entitled, and nothing more. My opinion is that it is not the case.
.. 'nuff said.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06
Planer. There are many ways of jointing without a jointer but thicknessing
is rather difficult without a planer.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
> would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
> yet. Thanks!
>
Quote :BTW, I've never seen ANY blade (and I've used most brands) that will
leave as good an edge as sharp joiner knives or a hand plane will. Unquote"
Before having a 6" heavy jointer, I used a 10 inches, Ripping Hollow
Ground-planing blade.
This blade only works when your board is square with the blade, fence and
perfectly perpendicular to the table.
To accomplished that I used to secure the board with toggle clamps on a sled
and push it between the fence and blade.
Not the ideal solution but it did the work to build three solid wood bedroom
sets and dinner room.
Now I make use of top of the line ripping (Freud) blade, heavy jointer and
surface planer. This way I can go much faster.
FWIW
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>
> "Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:09:37 GMT, "Leon"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>A jointer is NOT correctly used to clean up after a TS rip cut. To
>>>maintain
>>>uniform width you need a reference fence. If you saw does not leave a
>>>shiny
>>>smooth edge consider spending $100 for a premium quality blade and read a
>>>book on tuning up your TS.
>>
>> I guess we'll have to disagree here Leon.
>> If you have a well tuned saw and a well tuned joiner you can rip rails
>> and stiles for an entire kitchen, join the edges and have a quite
>> uniform stack of material waiting for assembly. The reference fence
>> is still on the table saw but a properly tuned joiner will remove
>> material consistently along the board's edge therefore maintaining
>> uniformity.
>
> That is not an absolute. Unless you maintain "perfect" feed pressure the
> edge begins going off parallel with the first pass, perhaps not enough
> that you would consider unacceptable.
>
> I have a good number of quality blades but would never
>> consider making face frames or doors without a joiner.
>>
>> BTW, I've never seen ANY blade (and I've used most brands) that will
>> leave as good an edge as sharp joiner knives or a hand plane will.
>
> The Forrest WWII on a well tuned saw will leace a surface that shines and
> reflects like glass. That's what use.
>
>
>
This is oversimplifed but I believe it makes a point:
If you have only a planer, you will WISH you had a jointer.
If you have only a jointer, you will NEED a planer.
--
Make it as simple as possible, but no simpler.
Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - [email protected]
Leon wrote:
> Once that surface is flat, flip the board over and run through with out the
> sled.
>
Even with a jointer, the face need not be flat, it only needs full
contact on both sides of the board over the full length. The planer
can then flatten both sides and make them parallel as the board is
flipped. In the case of some really nice faces, I've not had enough
wood to make both sides completely flat, so the unfinished face is
oriented to where it won't show.
I've seen woodworkers face joint, face joint, and face joint some more,
until one part of the board is less than finished thickness, but the
other face hasn't been touched at all.
Planer.
The design feedom to use other than stadard-thickness components is huge in
my book.
Get a hand plane to knock off the high spots before planing.
Then save for the jointer... You will want one.
-Steve
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
> would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
> yet. Thanks!
>
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 14:09:37 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>A jointer is NOT correctly used to clean up after a TS rip cut. To maintain
>uniform width you need a reference fence. If you saw does not leave a shiny
>smooth edge consider spending $100 for a premium quality blade and read a
>book on tuning up your TS.
I guess we'll have to disagree here Leon.
If you have a well tuned saw and a well tuned joiner you can rip rails
and stiles for an entire kitchen, join the edges and have a quite
uniform stack of material waiting for assembly. The reference fence
is still on the table saw but a properly tuned joiner will remove
material consistently along the board's edge therefore maintaining
uniformity. I have a good number of quality blades but would never
consider making face frames or doors without a joiner.
BTW, I've never seen ANY blade (and I've used most brands) that will
leave as good an edge as sharp joiner knives or a hand plane will.
Mike O.
[email protected] wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
>> would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
>> yet. Thanks!
>
> I bought a planer because it's possible to use it as a jointer, and
> it's possible to use your table saw as a jointer, and it's possible to
> joint yer wood with a hand plane. There's lots of ways to flatten a
> board but not many ways to get all your stock to a precise thickness
> with both surfaces parallel.
>
> But it didn't take me long to really, REALLY want a good 8 inch
> jointer. I got a lot of use out of the planer alone but it sure is a
> joy having both. 400 is not a bad price for a planer but I think the
> kind of jointer you'd get for that will give you more frustration than
> help. I paid a little over 700 for my Griz G0586. They're about 800
> now.
> In a jointer, length of bed really matters.
>
> If I had it to do over I'd still buy the planer first and force myself
> to wait till I could afford a longbed jointer, or find one used.
> Usually in hindsight I'd make changes but in that instance I still
> think I did it right.
Agreed. You can pick up a decent DeWalt planer for around $400. I went the
cheap route with a jointer, and it pretty much sits and gathers (saw)dust.
I end up using my radial arm saw for any large jointing, and my router
table for any small work.
BTW, Craftsman 6 1/4" jointer for sale. $80 OBO. Lightly used. In Ft.
Worth, Texas.
--
Michael White "To protect people from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools." -Herbert Spencer
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Mike O." wrote in message
>
>> uniform stack of material waiting for assembly. The reference fence
>> is still on the table saw but a properly tuned joiner will remove
>> material consistently along the board's edge therefore maintaining
>> uniformity.
>
> My experience is entirely different ... and my jointer is properly tuned.
>
> The only way _I_ can guarantee that opposite edges are parallel is to rip
> an
> opposite edge on a "properly tuned" table saw ... even the best set up
> jointer simply will not guarantee that, IME.
>
Learn to use your jointer. It removes, when properly used, the same amount
of material all along the length of the board. Its "fence" is the outfeed
table, remaining a constant distance above the infeed throughout, just as
your tablesaw blade remains a constant distance from that fence. Only
difference is the jointer is capable of taking out bow which might result
from new tensioning of the narrower board as well.
It's your woodworker's eye reading the board you're ripping that warns you
when it might be necessary to rip two passes oversize. Sometimes even
that's not enough.
On 7 Dec 2006 19:21:11 -0800, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>[email protected] wrote:
>> Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
>> would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
>> yet. Thanks!
>
>I bought a planer because it's possible to use it as a jointer
Wrong. It is *never* possible to use a planer as a jointer.
The two machines serve completely different functions. The two
machines have a kind of symbiotic relationship. A jointer makes one
surface of a board flat. The fence on the jointer is used to make one
of the edges adjacent to that flat face perpendicular to it. Various
adjustments to the tables and fence on a jointer can vary the results
from flat and perpendicular.
The reason a planer cannot joint is that the pressure of the feed
rollers can temporarily flatten the board so that it gets planed, but
the board returns to it's formerly cupped/twisted/warped original
shape after that pressure is relieved. Of course, if you're board is
"flat enough" or you otherwise use any clever jigs or other
contraptions to hold your board as it goes through the planer, you
*might* get away with making the surfaces flat and reasonably parallel
to each other.
Can you explain this for the woodworking challenged? ;-)
J T wrote:
> Fri, Dec 8, 2006, 3:54am (EST+5) [email protected]
> (George Max) doth burble:
> Wrong. It is *never* possible to use a planer as a jointer. <snip>
>
> Oh ye of little imagination. I don't have a jointer, and do most
> of my jointing with my planer.
>
> Simple enough, use a planer sled. They'll work even with crooked
> wood. I've made two, plan on another. Or, you can make a guide to run
> stock thru, I may try that for my next project.
>
>
>
> JOAT
> I am, therefore I think.
Thu, Dec 7, 2006, 10:18pm (EST-3) [email protected] did plaintively
query:
Can you explain this for the woodworking challenged?
Thought I had. OK, very basic. The magic 8 ball says, DAGS planer
sled.
Mine've got cam alone one edge, from some of my uncompleted cam
clamps, so I can take up the space with scrap wood, then clamp
everything in place. They're 100% wood and glue, no metal, just in
case.
JOAT
I am, therefore I think.
Fri, Dec 8, 2006, 3:54am (EST+5) [email protected]
(George=A0Max) doth burble:
Wrong. It is *never* possible to use a planer as a jointer. <snip>
Oh ye of little imagination. I don't have a jointer, and do most
of my jointing with my planer.
Simple enough, use a planer sled. They'll work even with crooked
wood. I've made two, plan on another. Or, you can make a guide to run
stock thru, I may try that for my next project.
JOAT
I am, therefore I think.
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 00:31:35 -0500, [email protected] (J T)
wrote:
>Fri, Dec 8, 2006, 3:54am (EST+5) [email protected]
>(George Max) doth burble:
>Wrong. It is *never* possible to use a planer as a jointer. <snip>
>
> Oh ye of little imagination. I don't have a jointer, and do most
>of my jointing with my planer.
>
> Simple enough, use a planer sled. They'll work even with crooked
>wood. I've made two, plan on another. Or, you can make a guide to run
>stock thru, I may try that for my next project.
>
Did you read my whole message?
I quote: "or you otherwise use any clever jigs or other
contraptions to hold your board as it goes through the planer, you
*might* get away with making the surfaces flat and reasonably parallel
to each other."
While possible, far too much rigamarole. My shop time is too limited
to allow for something that's going to be different for each board.
All that setup. That takes too long.
But as my message says, I *might* do it if the situation presents its
self and its justifiable (to me).
Fri, Dec 8, 2006, 9:16am (EST-1) [email protected] (George=A0Max) doth
query:
Did you read my whole message?
I quote: "or you otherwise use any clever jigs or other contraptions
<snip>
Yep, read it. Except, I consider a planer sled a basic accessory,
and not a clever jig, or contraption.
JOAT
I am, therefore I think.
Thanks,
I appreciate the information. That hot-glue works good. I had my mind set
on a sled for a jointer. With this type of sled it should work good using
the thickness planer.
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I had not luck. I am missing quite a few post.
>> Maybe someone can point me in the right direction.
>> TIA
>
> You're just making a flat bottom so you can get a parallel top. In the
> simplest form it's a piece of plywood with the low spots on the board
> shimmed and hot-glued for the first couple of light passes. Use your
> eyeball or winding sticks to get the best fit and have at it.
>
> Helps if you have good metal serrated infeed rollers. Some of us just hot
> glue shims to the high spots to stabilize and run it that way. With the
> serrated infeed and a set of bed rollers you can feed with almost no
> downward pressure.
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 13:34:17 -0500, [email protected] (J T)
wrote:
>Fri, Dec 8, 2006, 9:16am (EST-1) [email protected] (George Max) doth
>query:
>Did you read my whole message?
>I quote: "or you otherwise use any clever jigs or other contraptions
><snip>
>
> Yep, read it. Except, I consider a planer sled a basic accessory,
>and not a clever jig, or contraption.
>
>
>
>JOAT
>I am, therefore I think.
O.K., works for you. It'll probably work for anyone. Even me.
After 20 years of dorking around with wood, I still haven't found a
need. Yet. I just think it's pretty time consuming. I already waste
a lot of time on other things.
What I use is a DJ-20 and a DeWalt 12" (?) planer. Big stuff goes to
Kettle Moraine hardwood to go through their thickness sander, but only
when it's already close to finished size.
Sun, Dec 10, 2006, 1:25am (EST+5) [email protected]
(George=A0Max) doth sayeth:
O.K., works for you. It'll probably work for anyone. Even me.
After 20 years of dorking around with wood, I still haven't found a
need. Yet. I just think it's pretty time consuming. I already waste a
lot of time on other things. <snip>
Yup, works for me. Probably work for anyone - IF they wanted to do
it that way. But that's up to them. If I was doing this for a living
I'd be doing a LOT of things different. Probably still do a few the
same, but most not. However, I don't pay my bills that way, so I don't
ve to be very efficient, if I don't want to be, and definitely don't
have to work under a time constraint. So, if I take 15 minutes to do
something my way, when I could do it in 5 another way, I'll probably
stick with my way - because I like to. It's a hobby. I don't have to
work fast, or efficiently - can't work too fast any more anyway, bad
joints. However, I spent a lot of time as a kid helping my grandfather.
Most people nowadays would call him a master carpenter - and a Hell of a
lot better than Norm he was - but correctly he was a journeyman. He
made some outstanding stuff, with just a tablesaw and some hand tools,
and I picked up a lot from him. I could be a lot more efficient if I
wanted to, but by the time I figure out just what type of a jig I need,
and just how I want it done, then to actually do it, I've usually wasted
more time then I've saved. But that's part of the fun.
JOAT
I am, therefore I think.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I had not luck. I am missing quite a few post.
> Maybe someone can point me in the right direction.
> TIA
You're just making a flat bottom so you can get a parallel top. In the
simplest form it's a piece of plywood with the low spots on the board
shimmed and hot-glued for the first couple of light passes. Use your
eyeball or winding sticks to get the best fit and have at it.
Helps if you have good metal serrated infeed rollers. Some of us just hot
glue shims to the high spots to stabilize and run it that way. With the
serrated infeed and a set of bed rollers you can feed with almost no
downward pressure.
I own a really good jointer. I still use a sled similar to Leon's to
flatten wide boards that I don't want to rip to 8" before I flatten
the face. Like any other woodworking jig, a planer sled is quick and
easy, once your mind is in the groove.
Do you have some detailed sketches of the your sled I would like to build
one.
TIA
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 8 Dec 2006 22:00:32 GMT, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>So how long does it take you to adjust your planer sled for each board?
>
>
> FWIW...
>
> I own a really good jointer. I still use a sled similar to Leon's to
> flatten wide boards that I don't want to rip to 8" before I flatten
> the face. Like any other woodworking jig, a planer sled is quick and
> easy, once your mind is in the groove.
>
> Don't use something often? Stay in the groove by keeping a notebook,
> complete with sketches, and write the really important details right
> on the jig with a Sharpie.
>
> I'd buy a planer first, and save for a good 6"++ jointer as my next
> tool.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Repeat after me to use clever jigs and advanced tools:
>
> "I will keep notes, I will keep notes, I will..."
>
> I have distinct notebooks for general notes (jig usage), tool setups,
> tuning, and maintenance, sharpening, and finishing, (4 books, plus a
> 5th that sits in my HVLP case) and flip through them before I do
> something I haven't done in a while. I also keep a rudimentary time
> log for future estimating, but this is probably unnecessary if you
> know you'll never, ever charge for a piece.
>
> Above all, have fun. Art, music, and sports always come out better
> when the participant is having fun.
>
> Barry
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:58:02 +0000, Leon wrote:
>
> What method does it use to support the curvature of the board so that you
> get flattening?
There are about 8 or 9 even spaced rocker strips that the board actually
sets on and these set on the sled. The rocker strips use triangular wedges
that are dadoed in to each end and held in place by the very point of a
screw. The triangle wedges slide in to raise the rocker strip or slide out
to lower the rocker strip.
I got the plans form FWW IIRC. I can repost plans if you would like to see
them.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:34:17 -0500, J T wrote:
>
>> Fri, Dec 8, 2006, 9:16am (EST-1) [email protected] (George Max) doth
>> query:
>> Did you read my whole message?
>> I quote: "or you otherwise use any clever jigs or other contraptions
>> <snip>
>>
>> Yep, read it. Except, I consider a planer sled a basic accessory,
>> and not a clever jig, or contraption.
>
> So how long does it take you to adjust your planer sled for each board?
I have an 8' sled and to adjust it for an 8' board it takes about 2 minutes.
Then it is good to go for how ever many passes it takes. Shorter boards
take proportionally less time. My sled is also good for boards up to about
14". Not many people can afford a jointer to handle boards as wide as their
planer.
While using a jointer may be a little quicker on smaller boards there is a
greater advantage in time on longer and wider boards when using a TS and
Planer.
I had not luck. I am missing quite a few post.
Maybe someone can point me in the right direction.
TIA
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks, I'll try to back track to locate this plan.
>
> "B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 02:03:46 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Do you have some detailed sketches of the your sled I would like to build
>>>one.
>>
>> Sorry, I don't.
>>
>> Leon posted a full description a few messages back.
>>
>> My original version was a simple MDF sled with framing shims (usually
>> found near the 2x's in home centers) and carpet tape holding
>> everything in place.
>>
>> I think I found the drawing for the version I use, which is much
>> faster than shims and tape, in one of the books I've borrowed from the
>> library.
>>
>> Here's a pay-per-view .pdf of one way to skin the cat:
>> <http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=24118>
>>
>> If you subscribe to FWW, online access is cheap. Otherwise, I'm sure
>> there might be another version on Google. These things are like
>> router mortise jigs, crosscut sleds, etc... in the respect that
>> they've been around for so long, there's been many variations of them
>> published.
>>
>
>
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:34:17 -0500, J T wrote:
> Fri, Dec 8, 2006, 9:16am (EST-1) [email protected] (George Max) doth
> query:
> Did you read my whole message?
> I quote: "or you otherwise use any clever jigs or other contraptions
> <snip>
>
> Yep, read it. Except, I consider a planer sled a basic accessory,
> and not a clever jig, or contraption.
So how long does it take you to adjust your planer sled for each board?
>
>
>
> JOAT
> I am, therefore I think.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Fri, Dec 8, 2006, 10:00pm (EST+5) [email protected] (J.=A0Clarke)
doth asketh:
So how long does it take you to adjust your planer sled for each board?
Never timed it, but not long. If I'm only doing one piece, then I
have to put in some scrap, to take up the space, then use the clamps to
hold it all in place. If I'm doing several at the same time, to come
out the same, less scrap, same principle. Maybe a minute or less. If
you were wedging them in place, I would say a bit longer.
However, if they're rough stock, and I want to take off some off of
each edge, then flipping them, and re-tightening the clamps only takes a
few seconds. I have to do that reclaiming pallet wood, to get uniform
size pieces. Depending on how many pieces I have, I may run a batch
thru, taking just a bit off one edge. Then run a new batch thru, not
moving the cutters. Once the first batch is shmmed so they'll clamp,
it's only a few seconds putting a new bunch in, and adjusting the
cutters just a bit. Continue until all are done on one edge. Then
adjust the cutters slightlym then repeat, untill all the rough spots are
out. This will make all the pieces the same width. It's actually
pretty fast. If you don't care if the pieces are the same width, then
you can just do several pieces at a time, then more, until done.
I made my sleds at least 6" wide, but you could make one narrow
enough to hold just one or two pieces if you wanted.
JOAT
I am, therefore I think.
On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:58:02 +0000, Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 13:34:17 -0500, J T wrote:
>>
>>> Fri, Dec 8, 2006, 9:16am (EST-1) [email protected] (George Max) doth
>>> query:
>>> Did you read my whole message?
>>> I quote: "or you otherwise use any clever jigs or other contraptions
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Yep, read it. Except, I consider a planer sled a basic accessory,
>>> and not a clever jig, or contraption.
>>
>> So how long does it take you to adjust your planer sled for each board?
>
>
> I have an 8' sled and to adjust it for an 8' board it takes about 2 minutes.
> Then it is good to go for how ever many passes it takes. Shorter boards
> take proportionally less time. My sled is also good for boards up to about
> 14". Not many people can afford a jointer to handle boards as wide as their
> planer.
> While using a jointer may be a little quicker on smaller boards there is a
> greater advantage in time on longer and wider boards when using a TS and
> Planer.
What method does it use to support the curvature of the board so that you
get flattening?
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 04:11:28 +0000, Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 08 Dec 2006 22:58:02 +0000, Leon wrote:
>>
>> What method does it use to support the curvature of the board so that you
>> get flattening?
>
>
> There are about 8 or 9 even spaced rocker strips that the board actually
> sets on and these set on the sled. The rocker strips use triangular wedges
> that are dadoed in to each end and held in place by the very point of a
> screw. The triangle wedges slide in to raise the rocker strip or slide out
> to lower the rocker strip.
>
> I got the plans form FWW IIRC. I can repost plans if you would like to see
> them.
Found it on their site. Thanks.
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 02:03:46 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Do you have some detailed sketches of the your sled I would like to build
>one.
Sorry, I don't.
Leon posted a full description a few messages back.
My original version was a simple MDF sled with framing shims (usually
found near the 2x's in home centers) and carpet tape holding
everything in place.
I think I found the drawing for the version I use, which is much
faster than shims and tape, in one of the books I've borrowed from the
library.
Here's a pay-per-view .pdf of one way to skin the cat:
<http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=24118>
If you subscribe to FWW, online access is cheap. Otherwise, I'm sure
there might be another version on Google. These things are like
router mortise jigs, crosscut sleds, etc... in the respect that
they've been around for so long, there's been many variations of them
published.
Thanks, I'll try to back track to locate this plan.
"B A R R Y" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 02:03:46 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>Do you have some detailed sketches of the your sled I would like to build
>>one.
>
> Sorry, I don't.
>
> Leon posted a full description a few messages back.
>
> My original version was a simple MDF sled with framing shims (usually
> found near the 2x's in home centers) and carpet tape holding
> everything in place.
>
> I think I found the drawing for the version I use, which is much
> faster than shims and tape, in one of the books I've borrowed from the
> library.
>
> Here's a pay-per-view .pdf of one way to skin the cat:
> <http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=24118>
>
> If you subscribe to FWW, online access is cheap. Otherwise, I'm sure
> there might be another version on Google. These things are like
> router mortise jigs, crosscut sleds, etc... in the respect that
> they've been around for so long, there's been many variations of them
> published.
>
On 8 Dec 2006 22:00:32 GMT, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>So how long does it take you to adjust your planer sled for each board?
FWIW...
I own a really good jointer. I still use a sled similar to Leon's to
flatten wide boards that I don't want to rip to 8" before I flatten
the face. Like any other woodworking jig, a planer sled is quick and
easy, once your mind is in the groove.
Don't use something often? Stay in the groove by keeping a notebook,
complete with sketches, and write the really important details right
on the jig with a Sharpie.
I'd buy a planer first, and save for a good 6"++ jointer as my next
tool.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Repeat after me to use clever jigs and advanced tools:
"I will keep notes, I will keep notes, I will..."
I have distinct notebooks for general notes (jig usage), tool setups,
tuning, and maintenance, sharpening, and finishing, (4 books, plus a
5th that sits in my HVLP case) and flip through them before I do
something I haven't done in a while. I also keep a rudimentary time
log for future estimating, but this is probably unnecessary if you
know you'll never, ever charge for a piece.
Above all, have fun. Art, music, and sports always come out better
when the participant is having fun.
Barry
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 11:10:17 -0600, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The only way _I_ can guarantee that opposite edges are parallel is to rip an
>opposite edge on a "properly tuned" table saw ... even the best set up
>jointer simply will not guarantee that, IME.
The edges of your material should come off the joiner just as square
or out of square as they are ripped. The fence on the joiner is
inconsequential when cleaning up ripped edges. You could in fact
remove the fence entirely though it's not recommended. If your
tables are flat and parallel and blades are installed on the proper
plane you should be able to repeat the square ness of your rips very
accurately. If you rip your stock at 2 degrees out of square you
should be able to run it across your joiner (not using your fence) and
it will still be 2 degrees out of square. All your trying to do is
keep your stock flat on the tables.
>Besides, parallel edges/faces are not in the job description for a jointer.
>;)
That's why you rip them first.
>And my Freud Glue-Line rip blade will consistently leave as good as edge as
>is necessary for any woodworking endeavor, if for some reason I feel my
>Forrest WWII won't suffice.
But, if you wipe a wet finger across that edge you will find the
remnants of hairline kerf marks. At some point in your building
process I'm sure you address those.
>Your mileage may obviously vary ...
Obviously, it does.:-)
I might suggest that not that long ago, before we had the quality of
blades we have today, every rail and stile made was either run through
a joiner to remove kerf marks or attacked by a hand plane.
Another thing to note is that in any cabinet manufacturing facility
that I've been through, sawed edges are addressed in some similar
manner. While rails and stiles are cut with a computerized saw, the
material edges are cleaned up in some way prior to assembly by either
a big automated joiner or planer or some type of sander. A sawed edge
is never the final edge.
IMO the joiner is used less and less because people are afraid to use
it, don't know how to use it and/or don't know how to set one up.
While today's blades may (for some) eliminate the need to join edges,
the process has been done since the first block plane and then when
some guy figured out how to get the blade from his plane spinning fast
enough, it was done with a joiner.
Some of us are still doing it.
Mike O.
[email protected] wrote:
> Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
> would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
> yet. Thanks!
>
Planer.
Lew
In article <[email protected]>, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
>would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
>yet. Thanks!
>
The best option is to save your money until you can buy both. Next best would
be to look at used equipment so you can buy both.
Here are the considerations:
1. A jointer cannot do the job of a thickness planer. Period.
2. With appropriate sleds or jigs, you can face joint with a planer. But it's
a lot easier with a jointer.
3. With appropriate sleds or jigs, you can edge joint with a table saw. But
it's a lot easier with a jointer.
4. The whole operation (face jointing, edge jointing, and thickness planing)
can be done with hand tools. But it's a lot easier with a jointer and a
planer.
The two work together: flatten a face with the jointer, then make the opposite
face parallel to it with the planer. Best to have both.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
In article <[email protected]>, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Mike O." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Besides, parallel edges/faces are not in the job description for a
>>>jointer.
>>>;)
>>
>> That's why you rip them first.
>
>Geez.... Do you also run your plywood panels through the jointer after
>cutting them ?????
I somehow doubt that he leaves exposed plywood edges in his finished work.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"Mike O." wrote in message
> uniform stack of material waiting for assembly. The reference fence
> is still on the table saw but a properly tuned joiner will remove
> material consistently along the board's edge therefore maintaining
> uniformity.
My experience is entirely different ... and my jointer is properly tuned.
The only way _I_ can guarantee that opposite edges are parallel is to rip an
opposite edge on a "properly tuned" table saw ... even the best set up
jointer simply will not guarantee that, IME.
Besides, parallel edges/faces are not in the job description for a jointer.
;)
And my Freud Glue-Line rip blade will consistently leave as good as edge as
is necessary for any woodworking endeavor, if for some reason I feel my
Forrest WWII won't suffice.
Your mileage may obviously vary ...
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/29/06
On Sat, 09 Dec 2006 04:31:33 GMT, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Geez.... Do you also run your plywood panels through the jointer after
>cutting them ?????
No but plywood edges are not a finished edge nor an edge to be
finished.
Mike O
On 7 Dec 2006 18:31:33 -0800, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Which would you buy first if you could only buy one. Either of these
>would be in the $400 range not the high end pro models, at least not
>yet. Thanks!
Kinda depends on your needs.
If you buy all of your hardwood already surfaced then you may not have
as much need for a planer. If you do a lot of ripping you might use
a joiner to clean up your sawed edges. Personally, I have more need
for a joiner and would buy that first. YMMV.
Mike O.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> But, I believe that you should try to keep your fingers out of your mouth
> in
> the shop.
:~) This is mean but I am almost ROTFLMAO. Sorry Mike but while you
probably do get the results that you are looking for you may one day learn
that you can do way better than that when you learn to set your TS up
correctly. The jointer IS NOT a dimensioning tool.
In article <[email protected]>, "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Mike O." wrote in message
>
>> >Besides, parallel edges/faces are not in the job description for a
>jointer.
>> >;)
>>
>> That's why you rip them first.
>
>My experience is that in 35+years of cabinet making I've never found it
>necessary to use a jointer to "clean up the edges" of any sawcuts I've made
>when dimensioning stock for a project ... and particularly those made when
>dimensioning stock for "rails and stiles".
Agree completely -- if any cleaning up is needed, the first thing to do is
check for problems at the table saw, e.g. misalignment, damaged blade, etc.
>
>With my always "batch cut" rails and stiles, I prefer that there be no
>further "dimensioning" of my carefully ripped to width stock, no matter how
>small, that would result from running them unnecessarily over a jointer.
And any cleanup that might be needed should be done, not with a jointer, but
by ganging half a dozen pieces on edge through the *planer*.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.