I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
especially heat from the roof and attic.
I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
the situation:
a) blow in a lot more insulation.
b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
c) do both
d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
vents to above the insulation.
e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
and in quite good condition.
Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
Thanks,
Andy Barss
On Jun 17, 2:35=A0pm, Woody <[email protected]> wrote:
> Andrew Barss wrote:
> > I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my =
house,
> > especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> > I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> > decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. =A0The house =
has
> > a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. =A0The attic h=
as some
> > blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on th=
e
> > underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
> > impossible). =A0We have some degree of venting -- there are small
> > vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
> > type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> > I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> > the situation:
>
> > a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> > b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> > c) do both
> > d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> > vents to above the insulation.
>
> > e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
> > treatment. =A0The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> > and in quite good condition.
>
> > =A0 =A0Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move=
is?
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > Andy Barss
>
> I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the
> attic. I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic
> (ceiling of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into
> the attic. This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create
> a cool airflow throughout the house.
>
> Here's a fact sheet from consumer reports:http://blogs.consumerreports.or=
g/files/whole-house-fans-1.pdf
>
> ~Mark.
My parents had one of those in the 1950's before they had AC.
In hot, humid weather the who house fan basically blows the hot air
around.
I think the goal is to blow the hot air out of the attic so it doesn't
migrate into the house.
Andy
WhiteTea77581 wrote:
> On Jun 17, 2:35 pm, Woody <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Andrew Barss wrote:
>>> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
>>> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>>> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
>>> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
>>> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
>>> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
>>> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
>>> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
>>> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
>>> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>>> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
>>> the situation:
>>> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
>>> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
>>> c) do both
>>> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
>>> vents to above the insulation.
>>> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
>>> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
>>> and in quite good condition.
>>> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Andy Barss
>> I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the
>> attic. I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic
>> (ceiling of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into
>> the attic. This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create
>> a cool airflow throughout the house.
>>
>> Here's a fact sheet from consumer reports:http://blogs.consumerreports.org/files/whole-house-fans-1.pdf
>>
>> ~Mark.
>
> My parents had one of those in the 1950's before they had AC.
>
> In hot, humid weather the who house fan basically blows the hot air
> around.
>
> I think the goal is to blow the hot air out of the attic so it doesn't
> migrate into the house.
>
> Andy
As hot air rises *and* the hottest air is in the attic, how do you
propose it "migrate" to lower parts of the house?
My understanding (and what I did via an attic roof fan) is to cool the
attic air so that living spaces adjacent to it are not next to as-hot
attic air and thus reduce the AC demand in those living areas.
If there's one or more active fans on the attic vents (as I indicated
and previous responder suggested) then the hot attic air would escape
(i.e. be blown out) as cooler air, pulled into the attic via a fan
entered. Thus lowering the attic air temperature. Thus lowering adjacent
living space heat. Thus lowering AC demand. Thus lowering AC costs.
Typically, these are thermostatically controlled so that once they reach
some "reasonable" temperature level, you don't continue to blow living
space air into them.
~Mark.
On Jun 17, 3:56 pm, "HeyBub" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Almost totally non-applicable to the OP:
> * "Water vapor will condense..." Not in 0% relative humidity
> * "Frost will form....." In Tuscon?
> * "... problem of mildew..." Meh.
> * "Ice dams..." Again, in Tuscon?
>
>
>
> >http://www.cor-a-vent.com/pdf/balancedventilation.pdf
>
> Commercial brochure on ridge vents. Good explanation (except for the bit
> about exhausting hot, HUMID, air).
>
>
>
> > and
>
> >http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm...
>
> Typical government simplistic check-list. Superficial, but good,
> suggestions.
Heh, heh. Absolutely right, HeyBub. Mr Barss, There are some folks
here with excellent ideas. Namely: Make sure you've got soffit vents
if you're installing ridge vent. Make sure your insulation doesn't
cover the soffit vents. If it's worth doing, overdo it (insulation-
wise). I'm not sure about those radiant barriers, as the underside of
the decking _must_ breathe very well. I roofed for twenty-plus years
in MI, and I'm looking at re-doing my roof here in Tucson pretty soon.
I'm probably going with painted standing seam metal. I wish copper was
more affordable, or I was richer... Tom
On Jun 19, 8:44 am, RB <[email protected]> wrote:
> Bruce wrote:
> > Soffit vents are 'required'.
> > Use the rigid foam panels that keep a clear air path over the insulation
> > where it meets your walls.
>
> > Also, if you use a swamp cooler, install a vented access door somewhere in
> > your living space that vents into the attic. When the cooler is on, the air
> > flows up into the attic (no need for an open window). With the cooler off,
> > the vent flaps close and block attic air from returning into the house.
>
> > A 'whole house fan' installed in the same way can be used to flush cool air
> > into the attic in the early morning and flush hot air out in the evening.
>
> Where do you get those flap vents, and how well do they seal ?
Google "upducts". Tom
Soffit vents are 'required'.
Use the rigid foam panels that keep a clear air path over the insulation
where it meets your walls.
Also, if you use a swamp cooler, install a vented access door somewhere in
your living space that vents into the attic. When the cooler is on, the air
flows up into the attic (no need for an open window). With the cooler off,
the vent flaps close and block attic air from returning into the house.
A 'whole house fan' installed in the same way can be used to flush cool air
into the attic in the early morning and flush hot air out in the evening.
-Bruce
>
>
> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy Barss
On Fri, 19 Jun 2009 09:44:47 -0600, RB wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):
> Bruce wrote:
>> Soffit vents are 'required'.
>> Use the rigid foam panels that keep a clear air path over the insulation
>> where it meets your walls.
>>
>> Also, if you use a swamp cooler, install a vented access door somewhere in
>> your living space that vents into the attic. When the cooler is on, the air
>> flows up into the attic (no need for an open window). With the cooler off,
>> the vent flaps close and block attic air from returning into the house.
>>
>> A 'whole house fan' installed in the same way can be used to flush cool air
>> into the attic in the early morning and flush hot air out in the evening.
>
> Where do you get those flap vents, and how well do they seal ?
>
I can't find a manufacturers name on mine, but its aluminum and has felt
seals at the edges of the slats. Sealing has never been a problem (no bugs or
other things get back through), but during the winter when I'm not running
the cooler, I place a plastic cover over the vent to stop all air movement.
Here is a link to a similar vent:
http://houseneeds.com/shop/vent/qmark/qmarkatticshuttersbuy.asp
Andrew Barss wrote:
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> the situation:
>
> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> c) do both
> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> vents to above the insulation.
>
> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> and in quite good condition.
>
>
> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
"d", although not the whole story, is probably the closest for old
construction.
Some other things to take into consideration for hot climates:
Vented roofs reduce the total solar heat gain by roughly 3 to 5%.
Consider installing ridge vents instead of the passive rotary vents
along with your vented soffits. Clay or concrete tile shingles can
reduce the solar heat gain by 10 to 15% in a vented roof. Color is not a
big an overall factor as you might think; material is, however. Dark
colored clay or concrete tile shingles outperform light colored asphalt
shingles, but in general light colored roofs do perform better than
dark, although it may not be significant taking material into account.
Radiant barriers can have a significant effect on reducing solar heat
gain on asphalt shingled roofs, not so much on clay or concrete
shingles. Best is a product like "tech-shield" used as decking, better
than none at all is the spray on radiant barrier paint. Keep in mind
that you need at least 1" of void space below the radiant barrier for
maximum effect. Radiant barriers do perform significantly better on
vented roof systems.
Basically, unvented roofs with clay or concrete tile shingles and R-19
insulation or greater; and vented roof systems, with mechanical
equipment and ductwork within the conditioned space, and R-19 or greater
ceiling insulation, perform the best in the Southwest.
If you do decide on "e", your best bet for hot climates is a design that
incorporates AC ductwork and air handlers within the building thermal
barrier, and a vented roof with clay tile or concrete tile shingles and
an R-30 or greater ceiling insulation.
If the AC ductwork and air handlers must be located in the attic spaces,
then go with a design that incorporates an unvented roof, creating a
conditioned attic space for the mechanical equipment.
Do your homework and find some "green" building seminars in your area
... the woods are full of them.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Woody wrote:
> WhiteTea77581 wrote:
>> On Jun 17, 2:35 pm, Woody <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Andrew Barss wrote:
>>>> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
>>>> my house,
>>>> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>>>> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
>>>> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house
>>>> has
>>>> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic
>>>> has some
>>>> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on
>>>> the
>>>> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
>>>> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
>>>> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
>>>> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>>>> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
>>>> the situation:
>>>> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
>>>> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
>>>> c) do both
>>>> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
>>>> vents to above the insulation.
>>>> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
>>>> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
>>>> and in quite good condition.
>>>> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Andy Barss
>>> I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the
>>> attic. I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic
>>> (ceiling of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into
>>> the attic. This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create
>>> a cool airflow throughout the house.
>>>
>>> Here's a fact sheet from consumer
>>> reports:http://blogs.consumerreports.org/files/whole-house-fans-1.pdf
>>>
>>> ~Mark.
>>
>> My parents had one of those in the 1950's before they had AC.
>>
>> In hot, humid weather the who house fan basically blows the hot air
>> around.
>>
>> I think the goal is to blow the hot air out of the attic so it doesn't
>> migrate into the house.
>>
>> Andy
>
> As hot air rises *and* the hottest air is in the attic, how do you
> propose it "migrate" to lower parts of the house?
>
> My understanding (and what I did via an attic roof fan) is to cool the
> attic air so that living spaces adjacent to it are not next to as-hot
> attic air and thus reduce the AC demand in those living areas.
>
> If there's one or more active fans on the attic vents (as I indicated
> and previous responder suggested) then the hot attic air would escape
> (i.e. be blown out) as cooler air, pulled into the attic via a fan
> entered. Thus lowering the attic air temperature. Thus lowering adjacent
> living space heat. Thus lowering AC demand. Thus lowering AC costs.
>
> Typically, these are thermostatically controlled so that once they reach
> some "reasonable" temperature level, you don't continue to blow living
> space air into them.
>
> ~Mark.
>
Attic/gable fans can make a big difference in the Arizona desert,
lowering the attic temperature form 150+F to closer to the ambient 115F
summer temp.
My unvented cardboard box solar cooker can reach close to 300F in the
summer months. Was telling a former AZ resident about the solar cooker
and he wondered why I bothered as I could probably accomplish the same
thing by placing the cooking vessel in the trunk of the car...
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:05:30 GMT, aemeijers <[email protected]> wrote:
>ransley wrote:
>> On Jun 17, 1:06 pm, Andrew Barss <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
>>> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>>>
>>> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
>>> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
>>> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
>>> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
>>> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
>>> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
>>> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
>>> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>>>
>>> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
>>> the situation:
>>>
>>> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
>>> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
>>> c) do both
>>> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
>>> vents to above the insulation.
>>>
>>> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
>>> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
>>> and in quite good condition.
>>>
>>> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Andy Barss
>>
>> Pay for an energy audit and get a blower door test done. There are
>> many ways to increase efficency that will be outlined by an audit, you
>> may find windows or another issue more important.
>
>Maybe Tucson is big enough so he can find somebody who will do that. I
>tried around here- none of the Utility, Insulation, or HVAC companies
>offer the service. I'd have to pay hundreds of dollars to have somebody
>come over from the Big City to do it.
Inadequate attic insulation WILL be the largest heat gain that can be
reduced economically. 15 inches of insulation and good ducted soffit
vents with adequate roof ventilation (I'm partial to full length ridge
vents for hot arid locations myself) is the best way to keep the heat
out.. An insulated, reflective roof surface is a secondary method.
Asbestos cement roof panels were very effective in Central Africa in
the '70s - but are no longer an option here.
Large overhangs to shade windows, along with properly installed Low-E
glass will also help. Large roof overhangs also shade the walls (which
should also be well insulated).
Also a good idea to keep concrete driveways and patios well away from
the house to avoid heat radiation and reflection into the house from
them to a minimum. Grass isn't an ideal solution in Phoenix but is
quite effective in reducing reflected/re-radiated heat.
Andrew Barss wrote:
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
> my house, especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house
> has
> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic
> has some blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and
> nothing on the underside of the roof itself (and putting anything
> there is essentially impossible). We have some degree of venting --
> there are small
> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents
> (rotary type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> the situation:
>
> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> c) do both
> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> vents to above the insulation.
>
> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> and in quite good condition.
>
>
> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>
In addition to the other wonderful suggestions, I'd offer the following:
1. Light-colored roof. A good idea, BUT... drive around your city. Do you
see any? No? Why not? The reason is that they discolor in a ghastly fashion
from the junk in the air. In places like Rome, they have permanent
pressure-washer crews prowling the city cleaning off the marble statues. IF
you're lucky, one side of the roof may be completely unseen by the
picky-public and you could get away with a white roof there.
2. You can't have too many soffit vents. If your ENTIRE soffit is a vent,
that's good. I'm not sure what birdboard might be, but if it's anything like
the perforated Hardiplank, it's probably insufficient. While the holy plank
stuff has a lot of holes, their total combined area is miniscule.
Experts agree that the unobstructed soffit vent area should be 1 sq in for
each 1 sq ft of attic space (again, more is better).
On Jun 17, 4:16=A0pm, "Stormin Mormon"
<cayoung61**[email protected]> wrote:
> A couple years ago, it was summer time. The company I was
> working for, we had been installing an air handler and AC in
> the attic of a house. We had a roof company install a power
> vent. After they installed, I temporary wired it in, and
> turned it on. You could feel the difference almost
> immediately, with the fan dumping the hot, humid attic air
> out. I'm a believer in roof power vents based on that.
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> =A0www.lds.org
> .
>
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> You definetly need a powered roof mounted Attic Fan which
> comes with
> its own thermostat that you typically set at 95 f. (on) . =A0I
> whouldnt
> be without one in the South. Ive had them on ALL of my
> houses with
> tremendous improvement..plus it makes your roof deck last
> longer. The
> Attic Fan would pull in cooler outside air thru your two end
> grilles
> and exhaust the superheated attic air very very well.
Absolutely. Nothing else will help as much as a Powered Roof Mounted
Attic Fan with adequate makeup air via perforated soffits / gable
vents.
On Jun 17, 12:06=A0pm, Andrew Barss <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my ho=
use,
> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. =A0The house ha=
s
> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. =A0The attic has=
some
> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
> impossible). =A0We have some degree of venting -- there are small
> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> the situation:
>
> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> c) do both
> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> vents to above the insulation.
>
> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
> treatment. =A0The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> and in quite good condition.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the be=
st move is?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy Barss
I have seen about a one-third reduction in electricity bills by
blowing in insulation in the attic.
Make sure you cover electrical fixtures before blowing in the
insulation.
If you don't have thermostatically controlled blowers in the attic,
get some.
Solar screens also help a lot.
Andy
On Jun 17, 2:41=A0pm, "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>snip<
> The channel from the soffit to above the insulation is easy--you get it i=
n
> premolded plastic from Home Depot for not much money.
It's called Accuvent. We installed a bunch of it on a current project.
Local Home Depot didn't stock it, so had to order from HD online and
pay some shipping. Neither Lowes nor Menards has anything like it.
Goes up fast and will work with R30 easily. Highly recommended.
Joe
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:06:57 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
>especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
>I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
>decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
>a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
>blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
>underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
>impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
>vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
>type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
>I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
>the situation:
>
>a) blow in a lot more insulation.
How thick is the insulation now? Blown insulation will settle over
time and perhaps not have the same R value.
>b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
>c) do both
>d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
>vents to above the insulation.
>
In a pinch, staple cardboard from the vent and above the blown in
material,
Spend a little time and find out why your doors and windows, leak most
energy. Smoke pencil, exotic incense helps show a draft.
DIY home audit
HeyBub wrote:
> Nova wrote:
>
>>For energy efficiency I would recommend more insulation above the
>>ceiling rafters.
>>
>>Roof venting will lower the temperature in the attic crawl space but
>>the main advantage of proper roof venting is that it extends the life
>>of the roof. If you do vent the roof at the ridge you should also
>>add soffit venting at least equal in area to that of the ridge vent
>>for proper air flow. See:
>>
>>http://www.roofhelp.com/ventilation_main.htm
>
>
> Almost totally non-applicable to the OP:
> * "Water vapor will condense..." Not in 0% relative humidity
I think people in Tucson still cook, take showers, etc. All produce
moisture that will rise until stopped by a vapor barrier, often the
roof. If there no venting...
> * "Frost will form....." In Tuscon?
Although I didn't write the article I'll give you this one.
> * "... problem of mildew..." Meh.
See cooking, showering above.
<snip>
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
Andy,
More insulation, vent along the entire roof ridge, and vented bird blocks.
cm
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my
> house,
> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has
> some
> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> the situation:
>
> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> c) do both
> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> vents to above the insulation.
>
> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> and in quite good condition.
>
>
> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy Barss
Andrew Barss wrote:
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> the situation:
>
> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> c) do both
> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> vents to above the insulation.
>
> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> and in quite good condition.
>
>
> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy Barss
For energy efficiency I would recommend more insulation above the
ceiling rafters.
Roof venting will lower the temperature in the attic crawl space but the
main advantage of proper roof venting is that it extends the life of the
roof. If you do vent the roof at the ridge you should also add soffit
venting at least equal in area to that of the ridge vent for proper air
flow. See:
http://www.roofhelp.com/ventilation_main.htm
http://www.cor-a-vent.com/pdf/balancedventilation.pdf
and
http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11390
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
ransley wrote:
> On Jun 17, 1:06 pm, Andrew Barss <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
>> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>>
>> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
>> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
>> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
>> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
>> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
>> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
>> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
>> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>>
>> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
>> the situation:
>>
>> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
>> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
>> c) do both
>> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
>> vents to above the insulation.
>>
>> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
>> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
>> and in quite good condition.
>>
>> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Andy Barss
>
> Pay for an energy audit and get a blower door test done. There are
> many ways to increase efficency that will be outlined by an audit, you
> may find windows or another issue more important.
Maybe Tucson is big enough so he can find somebody who will do that. I
tried around here- none of the Utility, Insulation, or HVAC companies
offer the service. I'd have to pay hundreds of dollars to have somebody
come over from the Big City to do it.
--
aem sends...
Nova wrote:
> Andrew Barss wrote:
>> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
>> my house, especially heat from the roof and attic.
>>
>> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can
>> to decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The
>> house has a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The
>> attic
>> has some blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and
>> nothing on the underside of the roof itself (and putting anything
>> there is essentially impossible). We have some degree of venting --
>> there are small vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive
>> vents
>> (rotary type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>>
>> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
>> the situation:
>>
>> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
>> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
>> c) do both
>> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
>> vents to above the insulation.
>>
>> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
>> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
>> and in quite good condition.
>>
>>
>> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Andy Barss
>
> For energy efficiency I would recommend more insulation above the
> ceiling rafters.
>
> Roof venting will lower the temperature in the attic crawl space but
> the main advantage of proper roof venting is that it extends the life
> of the roof. If you do vent the roof at the ridge you should also
> add soffit venting at least equal in area to that of the ridge vent
> for proper air flow. See:
>
> http://www.roofhelp.com/ventilation_main.htm
Almost totally non-applicable to the OP:
* "Water vapor will condense..." Not in 0% relative humidity
* "Frost will form....." In Tuscon?
* "... problem of mildew..." Meh.
* "Ice dams..." Again, in Tuscon?
>
> http://www.cor-a-vent.com/pdf/balancedventilation.pdf
Commercial brochure on ridge vents. Good explanation (except for the bit
about exhausting hot, HUMID, air).
>
> and
>
> http://www.energysavers.gov/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11390
Typical government simplistic check-list. Superficial, but good,
suggestions.
I used to live in Tucson for 25 years and have seen many ways to cool
the attic. The rotary vents can only exhaust air if there is a wind and by
having them mounted lower than the intake vents convection is against you.
You'll need to force vent the attic. A powered vent, either AC or solar
powered, is the best solution if you have only air-conditioning.
If you also have a swamp box there is a product called "Up-Dux" made in
Phx that installs in your ceilings and lets cool air inside the house exit up
into the attic. This helps immensely and costs nothing to run.
Another less effective option is to paint the roof white, which usually is the
only option for flat roofed houses.
Art
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
> Thanks,
> Andy Barss
I posted the product name on the 17th. Google lists the mfgr
as the 2nd hit.
Art
"Bruce" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>
> I can't find a manufacturers name on mine,
On Jun 17, 1:06=A0pm, Andrew Barss <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my ho=
use,
> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. =A0The house ha=
s
> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. =A0The attic has=
some
> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
> impossible). =A0We have some degree of venting -- there are small
> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> the situation:
>
> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> c) do both
> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> vents to above the insulation.
>
> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roofh
> treatment. =A0The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> and in quite good condition.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the be=
st move is?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy Barss
You definetly need a powered roof mounted Attic Fan which comes with
its own thermostat that you typically set at 95 f. (on) . I wouldnt
be without one in the South. Ive had them on ALL of my houses with
tremendous improvement..plus it makes your roof deck last longer. The
Attic Fan would pull in cooler outside air thru your two end grilles
and exhaust the superheated attic air very very well. You can get
them at any Lowes, Home DePot, or Menards store. About $80 . Forget
about static Ridge Vents...they are virtually useless -- you need to
FORCE the air out of the attic . Further, I would lay batt insulation
in your attic on top of the blown in insulation after you smooth it
out so its level. Use R30 batt insulation which will come 24' long
and 15" wide (also available 24" wide) and is 9.5" thick. I just did
mine and immediately noticed the difference. These two improvement
done together will make your inside much more comfortable as well as
reduce the runtime of your cooling system (as much as 30%) thereby
saving you money . Ive vacationed in Tucson 7 times over the years
and almost moved there in 1980 . I spent my honeymoon on Mt. Lemmon at
SummerHaven .
Andrew Barss wrote:
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has some
> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> the situation:
>
> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> c) do both
> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> vents to above the insulation.
>
> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> and in quite good condition.
>
>
> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy Barss
I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the
attic. I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic
(ceiling of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into
the attic. This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create
a cool airflow throughout the house.
Here's a fact sheet from consumer reports:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/files/whole-house-fans-1.pdf
~Mark.
On Jun 17, 1:06=A0pm, Andrew Barss <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my ho=
use,
> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. =A0The house ha=
s
> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. =A0The attic has=
some
> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
> impossible). =A0We have some degree of venting -- there are small
> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> the situation:
>
> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> c) do both
> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> vents to above the insulation.
>
> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
> treatment. =A0The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> and in quite good condition.
>
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the be=
st move is?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy Barss
Pay for an energy audit and get a blower door test done. There are
many ways to increase efficency that will be outlined by an audit, you
may find windows or another issue more important.
"Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my
> house,
> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has
> some
> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small
> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>
> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
> the situation:
>
> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
> c) do both
> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
> vents to above the insulation.
>
> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
> and in quite good condition.
>
>
> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Andy Barss
I'd put more insulation in then the vents. I wouldn't mess with the roof.
Too expensive for your return.
Consider a ridge vent. They are not that expensive and supposed to be the
most effective.
Master Tang wrote:
> "Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
>> my house,
>> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>>
>> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can
>> to decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The
>> house has a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access.
>> The attic has some
>> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on
>> the underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is
>> essentially impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there
>> are small
>> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents
>> (rotary type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>>
>> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
>> the situation:
>>
>> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
>> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
>> c) do both
>> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
>> vents to above the insulation.
>>
>> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
>> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
>> and in quite good condition.
>>
>>
>> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Andy Barss
>
> I'd put more insulation in then the vents. I wouldn't mess with the
> roof. Too expensive for your return.
>
> Consider a ridge vent. They are not that expensive and supposed to be
> the most effective.
If you don't have the soffit vent the ridge vent doesn't help all that
much--air has to come in before it can go out.
The channel from the soffit to above the insulation is easy--you get it in
premolded plastic from Home Depot for not much money.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Master Tang wrote:
>> "Andrew Barss" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
>>> my house,
>>> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>>>
>>> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can
>>> to decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The
>>> house has a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access.
>>> The attic has some
>>> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on
>>> the underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is
>>> essentially impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there
>>> are small
>>> vents on the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents
>>> (rotary type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>>>
>>> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better
>>> the situation:
>>>
>>> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
>>> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
>>> c) do both
>>> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
>>> vents to above the insulation.
>>>
>>> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
>>> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles,
>>> and in quite good condition.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Andy Barss
>>
>> I'd put more insulation in then the vents. I wouldn't mess with the
>> roof. Too expensive for your return.
>>
>> Consider a ridge vent. They are not that expensive and supposed to be
>> the most effective.
>
> If you don't have the soffit vent the ridge vent doesn't help all that
> much--air has to come in before it can go out.
>
> The channel from the soffit to above the insulation is easy--you get it in
> premolded plastic from Home Depot for not much money.
>
I'd assume (?) the installer of the ridge vent would know that. The one that
installed mine did.
"Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Andrew Barss wrote:
>> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my
>> house,
>> especially heat from the roof and attic.
>>
>> I own an older house in Tucson, and we are trying to do what we can to
>> decrease our electricity (mostly air conditioning) bills. The house has
>> a peaked roof, with a low attic that has minimal access. The attic has
>> some
>> blown-in loose insulation between the ceiling joists, and nothing on the
>> underside of the roof itself (and putting anything there is essentially
>> impossible). We have some degree of venting -- there are small vents on
>> the two end walls near the peak, and two passive vents (rotary
>> type) on the roof, about four feet down from the peak.
>>
>> I've heard various things, some conflicting, about how to better the
>> situation:
>>
>> a) blow in a lot more insulation.
>> b) increase airflow using soffet vents (aka birdboard).
>> c) do both
>> d) do both, but with some sort of a channel up from the soffet
>> vents to above the insulation.
>>
>> e) tear the roof off, put a lot of money into a high-tech roof
>> treatment. The curent roof is light-colored shingles, and in quite good
>> condition.
>>
>>
>> Anyone living in the Southwest have advice on what the best move is?
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Andy Barss
> I'd go one better than just adding active fans at either end of the attic.
> I'd also add a whole house fan, mounted in the floor of the attic (ceiling
> of the living area) to pull cooler air up from the house into the attic.
> This air will be cooler than the outside air and will create a cool
> airflow throughout the house.
>
> Here's a fact sheet from consumer reports:
> http://blogs.consumerreports.org/files/whole-house-fans-1.pdf
>
> ~Mark.
So he should suck in the 113 degree heat and pump it into his house?
A couple years ago, it was summer time. The company I was
working for, we had been installing an air handler and AC in
the attic of a house. We had a roof company install a power
vent. After they installed, I temporary wired it in, and
turned it on. You could feel the difference almost
immediately, with the fan dumping the hot, humid attic air
out. I'm a believer in roof power vents based on that.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
You definetly need a powered roof mounted Attic Fan which
comes with
its own thermostat that you typically set at 95 f. (on) . I
wouldnt
be without one in the South. Ive had them on ALL of my
houses with
tremendous improvement..plus it makes your roof deck last
longer. The
Attic Fan would pull in cooler outside air thru your two end
grilles
and exhaust the superheated attic air very very well.
Bruce wrote:
> Soffit vents are 'required'.
> Use the rigid foam panels that keep a clear air path over the insulation
> where it meets your walls.
>
> Also, if you use a swamp cooler, install a vented access door somewhere in
> your living space that vents into the attic. When the cooler is on, the air
> flows up into the attic (no need for an open window). With the cooler off,
> the vent flaps close and block attic air from returning into the house.
>
> A 'whole house fan' installed in the same way can be used to flush cool air
> into the attic in the early morning and flush hot air out in the evening.
Where do you get those flap vents, and how well do they seal ?
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:06:57 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Barss
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in my house,
>especially heat from the roof and attic.
>
...
I would suggest blowing in more insulation for now. In the
future your shingles will fail and then you can remove them, add a
ridge vent and open up the soffits as much as possible. At that time
I would consider adding a layer of insulation (high efficiency foam)
on the current roof, after removing the shingles, and then the new
roof over that.
The cost of energy is just going to continue to climb.
"Andrew Barss" wrote:
> I'm looking for advice and ideas for improving energy efficiency in
> my house,
> especially heat from the roof and attic.
<snip>
As the old saying goes, "Advice is usually worth what you pay for it."
As someone else suggested, contract with a reputable firm and have a
total energy audit performed.
It will cost a few $, but it will save many times that cost.
Otherwise you are flying blind.
Lew
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
.
>
> Radiant barriers can have a significant effect on reducing solar heat gain
> on asphalt shingled roofs, not so much on clay or concrete shingles. Best
> is a product like "tech-shield" used as decking, better than none at all
> is the spray on radiant barrier paint. Keep in mind that you need at least
> 1" of void space below the radiant barrier for maximum effect. Radiant
> barriers do perform significantly better on vented roof systems.
To add to what Swingman has mentioned here, my parents had the rediant
barrier sprayed into their attic and had 8 more inches of insulation blown
in. This was done last year in July. So far this year they have averaged a
20% savings in hours used on the months that they have been using the air
conditioning.
I can tell you right now that pay back will be a long process if you only
consider your electricity savings to the cost of the improvement. I can
tell you that you will probably save money on equipment repairs and or
equipment replacement. The AC simply does not have to work as hard. My
parents keep the thermostat at 76-77 degrees all summer long and the
temperature stays there. Last year before the improvements the inside temp
stayed at 79-81 degrees. Additionally there are no longer any "Hot Spots"
in the house. Regardless of which room you are in the temp seems to be the
same.
Last, I built a wood and Hardiplank store room about 5 years ago. I chose
to use Radiant Barrier Decking over standard Decking. The cost was about $4
per sheet more. The store room has one door that stays shut and no windows.
It has sofit vents only. The store room does not feel any hotter in side
than the out side temperature. IMHO well worth the small additional expense
as Christmas candles do not melt nor do I when I am inside the store room.
> Basically, unvented roofs with clay or concrete tile shingles and R-19
> insulation or greater; and vented roof systems, with mechanical equipment
> and ductwork within the conditioned space, and R-19 or greater ceiling
> insulation, perform the best in the Southwest.
>
> If you do decide on "e", your best bet for hot climates is a design that
> incorporates AC ductwork and air handlers within the building thermal
> barrier, and a vented roof with clay tile or concrete tile shingles and an
> R-30 or greater ceiling insulation.
>
> If the AC ductwork and air handlers must be located in the attic spaces,
> then go with a design that incorporates an unvented roof, creating a
> conditioned attic space for the mechanical equipment.
>
> Do your homework and find some "green" building seminars in your area ...
> the woods are full of them.
>
> --
> www.e-woodshop.net
> Last update: 10/22/08
> KarlC@ (the obvious)