Most of the tools I have, I'm pretty confident using it. My first worm drive
Skil circular saw had so much power as it would kick as soon as the trigger
is pulled and would run away if both hands were not holding on to the saw,
especially cutting up the floor. Pretty lucky with the tablesaw, couple of
kickbacks was all and one loose carbide tip fling across the room at
lightning speed. Drill press bit bind on a workpiece and almost took my hand
off. Than came the chainsaw on the last cut on a 50 foot tree where it lean
backward and bind the chain. The saw was useless at that point and I had no
idea where that tree was going to land . Up to that point my most
intimidating operation was ripping on a radial arm saw when the tablesaw was
out of commission. Now the number spot, although not woodworking, is the
handheld 14" gas saw with a composite cutting blade for steel. Couple of
those blades blew up on me cutting at full throttle - just like a bomb went
off. With about 5 hp at 4,000 rpm in your hands, you really have to think
before hand how the cut is to be made and try to anticipate at what point
the blade is going to bind or the work is going to shift and avoid the line
of sight from the rotating blade or chain.
What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
"Puckdropper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Rod & Betty Jo" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> ** Frank ** wrote:
>>>
>>> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
>>
>
> *snip: branch hitting power pole*
>
>>.....me thinks branches of that size, at least without a
>> helper and a rope to control the fall should be avoided with a
>> electric poll trimmer.....Rod
>>
>>
>
> I haven't actually tried this (never had the problem) but supposedly you
> can call the phone or power company and ask them to remove branches
> approaching wires. Paying a guy $100 to take a branch down sure seems a
> lot more appealing than $2000 doing "cleanup" after a homeowner had an
> accident.
>
> Puckdropper
> --
> Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.
>
> To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
Free of charge by the power company in my area, trim once a year. They had
also remove trees and re-plant lower growing species on another area away
from the power line for free too.
On Jul 1, 1:50 pm, "** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Most of the tools I have, I'm pretty confident using it. My first worm drive
> Skil circular saw had so much power as it would kick as soon as the trigger
> is pulled and would run away if both hands were not holding on to the saw,
> especially cutting up the floor. Pretty lucky with the tablesaw, couple of
> kickbacks was all and one loose carbide tip fling across the room at
> lightning speed. Drill press bit bind on a workpiece and almost took my hand
> off. Than came the chainsaw on the last cut on a 50 foot tree where it lean
> backward and bind the chain. The saw was useless at that point and I had no
> idea where that tree was going to land . Up to that point my most
> intimidating operation was ripping on a radial arm saw when the tablesaw was
> out of commission. Now the number spot, although not woodworking, is the
> handheld 14" gas saw with a composite cutting blade for steel. Couple of
> those blades blew up on me cutting at full throttle - just like a bomb went
> off. With about 5 hp at 4,000 rpm in your hands, you really have to think
> before hand how the cut is to be made and try to anticipate at what point
> the blade is going to bind or the work is going to shift and avoid the line
> of sight from the rotating blade or chain.
>
> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
None of the tools are dangerous. It's how you use them that makes
them dangerous.
Look into a diamond blade for the cutoff saw - those don't explode and
cut _much_ faster and last _much_ longer. Well worth the money.
R
On Jul 1, 1:50 pm, "** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
That would be the tool which I haven't used before and don't feel
comfortable with.
I have yet to pick up a tool without asking myself the
question...whilst studying the tool.."How can this piece of gear mess
me up?"
"If this thing jams, where will I end up?"
"What part of this tool can eat me?"
When you don't know, Frank...don't plug the the thing into the
outlet.... you see, when God created powertools, He didn't know that
they made a secret pact to take eye-balls and fingers and toes without
permission from the rightful owners.
It is part of the origiunal sin and 8 deadly sins-package (The 8th
being the staining of cherry)
On Jul 1, 1:50 pm, "** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Most of the tools I have, I'm pretty confident using it. My first worm drive
> Skil circular saw had so much power as it would kick as soon as the trigger
> is pulled and would run away if both hands were not holding on to the saw,
> especially cutting up the floor. Pretty lucky with the tablesaw, couple of
> kickbacks was all and one loose carbide tip fling across the room at
> lightning speed. Drill press bit bind on a workpiece and almost took my hand
> off. Than came the chainsaw on the last cut on a 50 foot tree where it lean
> backward and bind the chain. The saw was useless at that point and I had no
> idea where that tree was going to land . Up to that point my most
> intimidating operation was ripping on a radial arm saw when the tablesaw was
> out of commission. Now the number spot, although not woodworking, is the
> handheld 14" gas saw with a composite cutting blade for steel. Couple of
> those blades blew up on me cutting at full throttle - just like a bomb went
> off. With about 5 hp at 4,000 rpm in your hands, you really have to think
> before hand how the cut is to be made and try to anticipate at what point
> the blade is going to bind or the work is going to shift and avoid the line
> of sight from the rotating blade or chain.
>
> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
Good post Frank, I suppose pride has something to do with the
responses you are getting. If I had to rank my major machines in
order of scaryness to me (from least to most scary) it would be be:
Bandsaw, planer, CMS, router.
I have had scary moments with each of them, but for some reason the
router scares me the most. Just yesterday I was creating shelving
units on 3/4" MDF. I was using my router with a 3/4" straight bit &
straight edge to create 1/4" deep dados in the case that the shelves
would fit into. Everything was going fine, and the work was going
very well until I noticed that the depth stop on my router didn't seem
to be holding at 1/4". I made adjustments and it kept happening.
Then I noticed that my dado was not the right depth so I turned off
the router to examine it, and after the router stopped turning, the
bit fell promptly to the ground.
The thing is: there are a lot of variables in woodworking, if you
think you are immune to accidents just because you consider yourself a
careful person you need to "humble-ize" your thinking down one notch.
Do this for your own safety and those who depend on you.
** Frank ** wrote:
>
> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
Well since you mentioned chain saws ...yesterday was one of those
"days"......I was using a small electric chain saw on a poll extension,
trimming a flowering pear tree (very brittle) along the sidewalk.....a 5inch
diameter branch where the lateral leaf canopy almost reached the power line
into the house, was just asking to be cut. I had cut about 2/3rds through
the branch when I stopped (depth of cut or visibility really sucks with
those poll trimmers) and I moved to the other side to finish the cut...as I
moved (thankfully) the branch split and lunged sideways and down into the
power line......It yanked the steel support cable out and snapped the mast
off of the house......The wire itself stayed intact although it was now a
couple of feet off of the sidewalk and not much higher across the street and
obviously under great tension with a branch stretched across it.....me
thinks branches of that size, at least without a helper and a rope to
control the fall should be avoided with a electric poll trimmer.....Rod
Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> The mistake was that they did not plan to protect them selves from a meteor
>> strike. They did not study the conditions needed to prevent damage to
>> themselves from a meteor strike and take actions to mitigate that event.
>> Even with out "yet to be invented technology" there was much they could have
>> done. They failed to take those measures and suffered the results of thier
>> mistake. Preposterous no
>
> Speaking of preposterous... perhaps you'd explain exactly what you have in
> mind that they could have done to protect themselves from a chunk of rock
> moving eighteen thousand miles an hour.
>
Ahh ... if only they had been scanning the sky instead of watching
where they were walking ...
--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000754-1, 07/04/2007
Tested on: 7/5/2007 12:21:21 AM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
Leon wrote:
>> I have to do this same argument Friday to convince city/county officials
>> of a possible gas explsion hazard from two propane farms and how to
>> prevent the event from happening and if it does what the effect on the
>> community will be. This has been good practice.
>
Risk mitigation is possible. Risk elimination is not.
I am as careful as I think reasonable around my table saw. That said, my
left hand is most often near the blade, so my shop phone sits to my right.
I know better than to imagine that I can eliminate all the injuries in
my shop. I accept that SOME blood will be spilled ... mine. It has been
in the past and it will be again. I have a first aid kit about 4 steps
away for the smaller stuff and a cordless phone at arms length for the
problems too big for self-administered first aid.
I also try to keep my relationship with God on a good foundation because
there are things that even 911 can't handle.
Bill
--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000754-1, 07/04/2007
Tested on: 7/5/2007 12:36:22 AM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
sweet sawdust wrote:
> It's been fun people but I have other things to do now. If you want to
> pursue Hazard Mitigation I suggest you contact your local Emergency
> Management Agency or FEMA (the people who brought you Katrina relief) or
> maybe even the American Red Cross. Above all Plan, Think and BE SAFE.
>
FEMA? The people who did WHAT to WHO?
Now we are in serious CYA territory.
--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com
---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 000754-1, 07/04/2007
Tested on: 7/5/2007 12:38:23 AM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com
Sun, Jul 1, 2007, 10:50am (EDT-3) [email protected] (**=A0Frank=A0**) sorh
vuevlw:
<anip> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
Poxkwrknidw.
JOAT
If a man does his best, what else is there?
- General George S. Patton
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> sweet sawdust wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> ...
>>> On January 16, 1825, in India, a man and a woman were struck and killed
>>> by a meteorite. What mistakes on their part brought this about?
>
>> I still say that all "accidents" are avoidable.
>
> Well, you can say that, but it isn't true for any rational definition of
> "all" and "accident"...
>
>> ...The couple in India did not have the knowledge, skill or equipment to
>> avoid the meteorite, much of what they needed was not avaible to them,
>> thus a mistake occured, resulting in them getting hit by a meteorite.
>> Mistakes are not always avoidable with out the right knowledge skill or
>> equipment but they are still mistakes . From each mistake we learn more
>> on how to avoid it or in the case of the Indian couple encourage others
>> to find ways to avoid the mistake, this some times takes long periods of
>> time to learn what is needed.
>
> This is simply preposterous. What _precisely_ was the "mistake"? That
> they didn't happen to have a yet-to-be-invented-at-the-time technique to
> monitor and track meteorites? How can that possibly be a "mistake"?
The mistake was that they did not plan to protect them selves from a meteor
strike. They did not study the conditions needed to prevent damage to
themselves from a meteor strike and take actions to mitigate that event.
Even with out "yet to be invented technology" there was much they could have
done. They failed to take those measures and suffered the results of thier
mistake. Preposterous no, You must do a threat assesment of your
surroundings and pick which events you will prepare for based on the
likelyhood of thier occuring and the level of damage you will suffer from
them. If you figure wrong you have made a mistake. The indian couple did
not rank meteorite threat as very high and did not take the proper steps to
protect themselves from it, the mistake. The "yet to be invented
technology" comment was ment to show that it is often hard to mitigate
against a threat that is almost unknown or hard to predict. Prime example
is Tornado warnings. I was taught that you can not predict tornados only
the conditions from which they occur. Tracking a tornado was only done in a
general way with out knowing precisely where it would go, and warning the
public in the path of the tornado was almost imposible. Now we can predict
very closely where a tornado may occur and when, we can track it to within a
few hundred feet and predict its future path very closely. The public can
be warned of it's approach in time to take shelter with out problems.
Before the new technology we did a good job of lowering deaths due to
tornados now we do a better job and will do an even better job in the
future. Before the new technology you could protect yourself quite well
from a tornado by gaining knowledge of what to look for and what actions to
take to prevent damage to yourself, The same applies to nearly all events
be they meteor strikes or tornados or TS kickbacks. The mistake is not in
planning.
>
>>> Unless the kickback was caused by internal stress in the wood, the
>>> relief of which allowed it to close on the blade.
>> Knowledge of the way the wood was dried and the type of wood would give
>> you an indication of a problem, ...
>
> So now you have to go back to the sawyer and the kiln to pedigree every
> piece of lumber???
Now you have the idea! That would be a very good way to do it. If that is
not possible then you look for signs that indicate problems, such as
warping, bowing, skewing, cracking, type of wood mostiure content, etc..
Then you take measures to prevent the wood from closing on the blade.
Things such as wedges in the kerf, spliters, riving knives, cross cutting
the board to make shorter rip cuts, suit of armor what ever is needed or
works for your condition to prevent injury from the kickback..
Just as preposterous.
Not if you want to prevent a mistake that could lead to an "ACCIDENT"
>
> PLONK...
Not one small accident in the shop throughout your lifetime? Sounds like no
one had a table saw kickback, a thin piece of wood blown up in the planer, a
drill bit bind on a workpiece, a chain came off on a chainsaw, etc. - not
even once, year after year working with those tools? Never had a wrench
slipped and skinned you hand either? My accidents happen over a 30 year
period working on of off with tools. Those are one time events. I'm careful
but also lucky.
As for the 14" gas saw, you could have a new defective composite blade
shatter at full throttle even without doing any cutting action. I already
noticed a new defective blade on the shelf at one of the big box stores and
know its going to shatter. This was no a cheap blade either, you just need
to inspect it every time before you start up the saw. As for the advice
using diamond blade instead of a composite one to cut steel - don't do that.
I have 10 new wet and dry 14" Hilti diamond blades and none for cutting
steel - they don't make one.
I know couple of old time woodworkers missing a finger or two but they work
on fast moving assembly lines cutting millions of board feet of wood year
after year that most of us couldn't even come close. A few lumberjacks have
chainsaw cuts on their bodies and a few died from falling limbs, contractors
get hurt all the time from equipment failures or due to accidents they have
no control on. I wouldn't say those professionals are dangerous as accidents
do happen even after proper training and safety use of tools. Even a very
respected woodworker doing a TV show cut his hand and continue working on
the project smeared with blood. As I remembered, some of the TV
personalities, contractor and designer types had accidents as well although
they didn't air it on the show. See that famous bike builder on TV doing TIG
welding without gloves or eye protection, or our favorite TV master
carpenter ripping wood on the table saw without a fence? I don't remember
seeing a blade guard on his table saw either.
I was just hoping some of you share your strange shop accident experiences
and how to best avoided it in the future.
In article <[email protected]>, "sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>The mistake was that they did not plan to protect them selves from a meteor
>strike. They did not study the conditions needed to prevent damage to
>themselves from a meteor strike and take actions to mitigate that event.
>Even with out "yet to be invented technology" there was much they could have
>done. They failed to take those measures and suffered the results of thier
>mistake. Preposterous no
Speaking of preposterous... perhaps you'd explain exactly what you have in
mind that they could have done to protect themselves from a chunk of rock
moving eighteen thousand miles an hour.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
They're ALL dangerous in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use
them properly. You seem to have more lives than a cat. I'm glad that I don't
live or work near you.
Before you use any more tools you should get some good training in how to
use them properly and safely. Everything that you have said indicates that
you don't know how to use your tools properly or work safely.
Charley
"** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Most of the tools I have, I'm pretty confident using it. My first worm
drive
> Skil circular saw had so much power as it would kick as soon as the
trigger
> is pulled and would run away if both hands were not holding on to the saw,
> especially cutting up the floor. Pretty lucky with the tablesaw, couple of
> kickbacks was all and one loose carbide tip fling across the room at
> lightning speed. Drill press bit bind on a workpiece and almost took my
hand
> off. Than came the chainsaw on the last cut on a 50 foot tree where it
lean
> backward and bind the chain. The saw was useless at that point and I had
no
> idea where that tree was going to land . Up to that point my most
> intimidating operation was ripping on a radial arm saw when the tablesaw
was
> out of commission. Now the number spot, although not woodworking, is the
> handheld 14" gas saw with a composite cutting blade for steel. Couple of
> those blades blew up on me cutting at full throttle - just like a bomb
went
> off. With about 5 hp at 4,000 rpm in your hands, you really have to think
> before hand how the cut is to be made and try to anticipate at what point
> the blade is going to bind or the work is going to shift and avoid the
line
> of sight from the rotating blade or chain.
>
> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
>
>
"** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Not one small accident in the shop throughout your lifetime? Sounds
> like no one had a table saw kickback, a thin piece of wood blown up in
> the planer, a drill bit bind on a workpiece, a chain came off on a
> chainsaw, etc. - not even once, year after year working with those
> tools? Never had a wrench slipped and skinned you hand either? My
> accidents happen over a 30 year period working on of off with tools.
> Those are one time events. I'm careful but also lucky.
*snip*
Your original post made it seem like they were all happening one after
the other. That's why you're getting the reactions you're getting. I've
had my share of minor shop incidences, and the best thing to do is be
aware of what can happen and have a game plan in the back of your head
for responding when it does.
You know... it might just be safer to use a power tool with an
appropriately rated extension cord than it is to plug it directly in to
the wall...
Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
"Rod & Betty Jo" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> ** Frank ** wrote:
>>
>> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
>
*snip: branch hitting power pole*
>.....me thinks branches of that size, at least without a
> helper and a rope to control the fall should be avoided with a
> electric poll trimmer.....Rod
>
>
I haven't actually tried this (never had the problem) but supposedly you
can call the phone or power company and ask them to remove branches
approaching wires. Paying a guy $100 to take a branch down sure seems a
lot more appealing than $2000 doing "cleanup" after a homeowner had an
accident.
Puckdropper
--
Wise is the man who attempts to answer his question before asking it.
To email me directly, send a message to puckdropper (at) fastmail.fm
On Sun, 1 Jul 2007 10:50:54 -0700, "** Frank **"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
The one which has the power on at the moment I am working !
Mark
"sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Now we are talking about mistakes by other people not in my control.
> These are still mistakes, just not made by me and which I could control
> the effect of on me.
Now, you are changing your tune. You originally said that you did not have
an accident in your shop and then commented that you have had lots of
accidents. Even if the accident is caused by some one elses mistake and you
are involved, you personally have had an accident whether it was your fault
or not.
The power outage could be controled by the proper generator set
> up, very expensive though, the plane I have no control over except to
> locate in an area where there are no planes. Every event can be planed
> for whether natural or man made.
Every event can be planned for if you know every possible event. You being
human like me should know that is impossible.
Not doing mitigation for them is a mistake that can be
> avoided. There fore both of your examples are avoidable mistakes.
Ok, tell me how you are going to plan and avoid the next accident. You
knowing that all possibilities are preventable should know what is going to
happen before it happens. If you don't know what is going to happen next
illustrates an accident that you will be involved in.
>
>
"sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
>
> These are steps you take everytime you do anything. Most of the time you
> don't even know it but you do them at some level. Failure to plan for any
> event or possible event is a mistake and you learn from them, Threat
> assisment is learned, not knowing that a table saw can kickback is not the
> cause of an accident but the result of a mistake in knowledge. Why all
> the labels and warnings on tools? to educate you of possible hazards and
> allow you to do threat assisment and mitigation of your use of the tool.
> Response is the action you take when your plan failed for what ever
> reason. Many of the threads here are about this very subject, should I
> wear a leather apron to help lessen the effect of a kickback is about
> mitigation. How to prevent kickback is about threat assesment and
> mitigation. I dont know what the next "Accident" that will occur in my
> shop or life, I do know that I can lesson the chances of having one by
> learning and using that knowledge to prevent mistakes and use the mistakes
> I make to lesson the posibility of it happening again.
>
> I have to do this same argument Friday to convince city/county officials
> of a possible gas explsion hazard from two propane farms and how to
> prevent the event from happening and if it does what the effect on the
> community will be. This has been good practice.
You should understand that being careful and taking preventative measures
will NEVER be enough to prevent all accidents. Realizing this goes more
towards accident prevention than believing that all accidents can be
prevented.
When you believe that all accidents can be prevented you come to a stopping
point in your mind as to how much is enough to prevent an accident.
When you know that you simply cannot prevent all accidents that you will be
involved in regardless of how much you think you know you will be several
steps ahead of where you are now in preventing a possible accident.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> Now we are talking about mistakes by other people not in my control.
>> These are still mistakes, just not made by me and which I could control
>> the effect of on me.
>
> Now, you are changing your tune. You originally said that you did not
> have an accident in your shop and then commented that you have had lots of
> accidents. Even if the accident is caused by some one elses mistake and
> you are involved, you personally have had an accident whether it was your
> fault or not.
>
>
> The power outage could be controled by the proper generator set
>> up, very expensive though, the plane I have no control over except to
>> locate in an area where there are no planes. Every event can be planed
>> for whether natural or man made.
>
> Every event can be planned for if you know every possible event. You
> being human like me should know that is impossible.
>
>
> Not doing mitigation for them is a mistake that can be
>> avoided. There fore both of your examples are avoidable mistakes.
>
> Ok, tell me how you are going to plan and avoid the next accident. You
> knowing that all possibilities are preventable should know what is going
> to happen before it happens. If you don't know what is going to happen
> next illustrates an accident that you will be involved in.
>
To Avoid an "ACCIDENT"
First you must do a threat assesment:
What are the possible "accidents" that can occur from using this tool,
walking under this light, standing in this location or what ever.
What are the liklyhoods of this "accident" or event occuring?
What is the damage that will occur if this event takes place?
Second you rate the threats and start to mitigate the most likely down to
the least likely.
Third you plan actions to lesson the impact of the event if you were wrong
in you mitigation efforts or unable to totaly mitigate the event.
This is done each and every time conditions change in any action you take.
For example:
You are ripping a board on a TS
Threat:
Kickback
flying sawdust hitting you
putting finger in blade and cutting your self
Likely hood
1 Flying sawdust hitting you
2 Kickback
3 cutting finger
Damage
1 little or none unless gets in eyes
2 Moderate to severe
3 severe
Mitigation
1 Safety glasses or face shield, Dust collector
2 Blade guard with splitter, riving knife, wedges to keep wood
from closing on blade, push sticks to help wood go past blade, antikickback
device on saw etc..
3 Keep saw blade at lowest possible level, blade guard, pushsticks,
sawstop device on saw or sawstop saw
Response
1 Eye wash to remove sawdust, phone with 911 programed in
2 Place to sit down and recover to phone with 911 programed in
3 phone with 911 programed in or someone to take you to the
emergency room
These are steps you take everytime you do anything. Most of the time you
don't even know it but you do them at some level. Failure to plan for any
event or possible event is a mistake and you learn from them, Threat
assisment is learned, not knowing that a table saw can kickback is not the
cause of an accident but the result of a mistake in knowledge. Why all the
labels and warnings on tools? to educate you of possible hazards and allow
you to do threat assisment and mitigation of your use of the tool. Response
is the action you take when your plan failed for what ever reason. Many of
the threads here are about this very subject, should I wear a leather apron
to help lessen the effect of a kickback is about mitigation. How to prevent
kickback is about threat assesment and mitigation. I dont know what the
next "Accident" that will occur in my shop or life, I do know that I can
lesson the chances of having one by learning and using that knowledge to
prevent mistakes and use the mistakes I make to lesson the posibility of it
happening again.
I have to do this same argument Friday to convince city/county officials of
a possible gas explsion hazard from two propane farms and how to prevent the
event from happening and if it does what the effect on the community will
be. This has been good practice.
>>
>>
>
>
"sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> A generator system can be hardned against a 10+megaton Nuke with EMP
> strike, this would definatly defend it against your average lightning
> strike. Not a cheap system but not as uncommon as you might think. No I
> don't have one and don't won't one, I will endure the results of that
> mistake when it happens. I have not said that you should mitigate against
> all hazzards just that you can if you are willing to. As far as the plane
> is concerned a properly built bunker would be one method of stopping that
> problem, I am sure that there are others if you want to look them up. You
> work on the problems that you feel are worthwhile to you.
>
> PLONK (back at you)
>
I think you should face the fact that you are only human just like us. You
have accidents because YOU cannot foresee events before they happen
therefore you cannot plan for every possible event. That does not mean that
you are at fault, or that you have made a mistake. There are events that
happen that have only one explanation and that does not involve any human
influence.
"sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I am human but I do try to preplan for events (not always as well as I
> would like) with all the knowledge and skill I have.
> Those event that do not envolve human influence are not accidents but acts
> of God and are not in the realm of planning. I would not dare try to tell
> God how to do anything.
Precisely and because God is all knowing and in total control, EVERYTHING
that happens is and or was destined to happen regardless of whether you
think you are or were well prepared for an event or not. No amount of
planning or preparation on your part is going to change the inevitable.
"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:TuUii.5152$4e5.3369@trndny07...
> Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, "sweet sawdust"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>The mistake was that they did not plan to protect them selves from a
>>>meteor strike. They did not study the conditions needed to prevent
>>>damage to themselves from a meteor strike and take actions to mitigate
>>>that event. Even with out "yet to be invented technology" there was much
>>>they could have done. They failed to take those measures and suffered
>>>the results of thier mistake. Preposterous no
>>
>>
>> Speaking of preposterous... perhaps you'd explain exactly what you have
>> in mind that they could have done to protect themselves from a chunk of
>> rock moving eighteen thousand miles an hour.
>>
>
> Ummm... Duck? ;-)
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> [email protected]
That's about nine times faster than a fast bullet or five miles per second!
"sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Not one small accident in the shop throughout your lifetime?
>
> Never did have an accident in the shop, no not one in my lifetime and I
> have been working with wood for around 50 years. Now if you want to talk
> stupid dangerous mistakes that's a whole different matter. I have had
> wood explode in my face, wood come flying back at me from the table saw,
> wood come flying off the lathe and hitting me in the face, to many cuts
> and contusions to count, cuts and beat up knuckles from the drill press
> and a lot of small blood spills on wood. All of my "accidents" were
> avoidable, if I had known what I was doing, been more careful, thought
> things through before I acted and not been so cocky. If you want to know
> which tool I am most careful with and has caused the most accidents in my
> shop it is the flathead screwdriver. It get used improperly all the time,
> gets little respect and has knicked me more then once. Number two on the
> list is my pocket knife for the same reason.
I am confused, you start off with,
Never did have an accident in the shop, no not one in my lifetime and I have
been working with wood for around 50 years.
Then you contradict that statement with,
I have had wood explode in my face, wood come flying back at me from the
table saw, wood come flying off the lathe and hitting me in the face, to
many cuts and contusions to count, cuts and beat up knuckles from the drill
press and a lot of small blood spills on wood. All of my "accidents" were
avoidable, if I had known what I was doing, been more careful, thought
things through before I acted and not been so cocky.
Can you explain the change in comments?
You do realize that accidents are often the result of mistakes.
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> All "accidents" are caused by or are the result of mistakes. If I had
>> checked the wood and the setup more carefully the wood would not have
>> exploded because I would not have used a bad peace of wood under
>> stressfull conditions. If I had checked the set up of my TS fence, hight
>> of the blade and and other TS setup and safety issues before I cut I
>> would not have had a kick back. The list goes on and on when ever I make
>> a mistake and do not do the proper thing with my tools, I stand the
>> chance of an "accident' due to my mistakes. So I am saying that all
>> "accidents" are avoidable if you don't make mistakes. When you say you
>> have had an accident you are saying that some where along the line you
>> made a mistake that resulted in an "accident". I am not saying that bad
>> things don't happen in my shop I am saying that they could be avoided,
>> and some times I learn how to avoid them through having "accidents" which
>> are my fault. So even though I have a lot of mishaps in my shop they are
>> my fault and are avoidable if I took the time and effort to prevent
>> them, which I will probably never do as well as I would like to.
>
>
> I gotta disagree, accidents are also caused by events that are totally not
> in your control. If you are laying in bed and a plane crashes in to you
> bedroom and you loose an arm, you were involved in an accident and there
> is no way that you could have prepared for that event. You could have a
> power outage loose your lights in your shop. The shop goes black and you
> cut your self. None of these accidents would have been your fault.
>
> Simply getting out of bed in the morning sets your self up for a potential
> and unforeseen accident. Granted most of our mishaps are our own fault
> but many are not.
Now we are talking about mistakes by other people not in my control. These
are still mistakes, just not made by me and which I could control the effect
of on me. The power outage could be controled by the proper generator set
up, very expensive though, the plane I have no control over except to locate
in an area where there are no planes. Every event can be planed for whether
natural or man made. Not doing mitigation for them is a mistake that can be
avoided. There fore both of your examples are avoidable mistakes. Often
the mitigation for an event is too expensive to allow for it. I do not
mitigate for meteortie damage to my home, the odds of it happening are to
great for me to worry about it, I do have earthquake insurance and have done
earthquake mitigation to my home and community. My mistake for not doing
full mitigation for all disasters both natural and manmade, but not an
accident if I suffer from the results, just the effect of my mistake. You
get up in the morning and you take your chances and live with your choices.
Off the topic a bit, I spent 20 years writing mitigation and response plans
for manmade and natural disasters. Some of them worked, others were delt
with by politicians.
>
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> A generator system can be hardned against a 10+megaton Nuke with EMP
>> strike, this would definatly defend it against your average lightning
>> strike. Not a cheap system but not as uncommon as you might think. No I
>> don't have one and don't won't one, I will endure the results of that
>> mistake when it happens. I have not said that you should mitigate
>> against all hazzards just that you can if you are willing to. As far as
>> the plane is concerned a properly built bunker would be one method of
>> stopping that problem, I am sure that there are others if you want to
>> look them up. You work on the problems that you feel are worthwhile to
>> you.
>>
>> PLONK (back at you)
>>
>
> I think you should face the fact that you are only human just like us.
> You have accidents because YOU cannot foresee events before they happen
> therefore you cannot plan for every possible event. That does not mean
> that you are at fault, or that you have made a mistake. There are events
> that happen that have only one explanation and that does not involve any
> human influence.
I am human but I do try to preplan for events (not always as well as I would
like) with all the knowledge and skill I have.
Those event that do not envolve human influence are not accidents but acts
of God and are not in the realm of planning. I would not dare try to tell
God how to do anything.
>
>
Doug Miller wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, "sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The mistake was that they did not plan to protect them selves from a meteor
>>strike. They did not study the conditions needed to prevent damage to
>>themselves from a meteor strike and take actions to mitigate that event.
>>Even with out "yet to be invented technology" there was much they could have
>>done. They failed to take those measures and suffered the results of thier
>>mistake. Preposterous no
>
>
> Speaking of preposterous... perhaps you'd explain exactly what you have in
> mind that they could have done to protect themselves from a chunk of rock
> moving eighteen thousand miles an hour.
>
Ummm... Duck? ;-)
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >>> Can you explain the change in comments?
>>> You do realize that accidents are often the result of mistakes.
>>
>> Accident: unavoidable or unexpected event, usually of a negative
>> nature.
>>
>> All "accidents" are caused by or are the result of mistakes.
>
> On January 16, 1825, in India, a man and a woman were struck and killed
> by a meteorite. What mistakes on their part brought this about?
>
> While many accidents are caused by mistakes, not all of them are.
>
>> If I had
>> checked the wood and the setup more carefully the wood would not have
>> exploded because I would not have used a bad peace of wood under
>> stressfull conditions.
>
> So how far do you take this checking? Do you do NMR scans on every
> piece of wood you saw to determine the internal structure?
>
>> If I had checked the set up of my TS fence,
>> hight of the blade and and other TS setup and safety issues before I
>> cut I would not have had a kick back.
>
> Unless the kickback was caused by internal stress in the wood, the
> relief of which allowed it to close on the blade.
>
>> The list goes on and on when
>> ever I make a mistake and do not do the proper thing with my tools, I
>> stand the chance of an "accident' due to my mistakes. So I am saying
>> that all "accidents" are avoidable if you don't make mistakes.
>
> And if you are omniscient and omnipotent perhaps.
>
>> When
>> you say you have had an accident you are saying that some where along
>> the line you made a mistake that resulted in an "accident".
>
>
> So, again, what mistake did that couple in India make?
>
>> I am not
>> saying that bad things don't happen in my shop I am saying that they
>> could be avoided, and some times I learn how to avoid them through
>> having "accidents" which are my fault. So even though I have a lot
>> of mishaps in my shop they are my fault and are avoidable if I took
>> the time and effort to prevent them, which I will probably never do
>> as well as I would like to.
>
> Certainly one should strive to avoid accidents, however that does not
> mean that that striving, even if perfectly executed, will prevent all
> accidents.
>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
>
I still say that all "accidents" are avoidable. Knowledge and skill will
help you avoid mistakes. The couple in India did not have the knowledge,
skill or equipment to avoid the meteorite, much of what they needed was not
avaible to them, thus a mistake occured, resulting in them getting hit by a
meteorite. Mistakes are not always avoidable with out the right knowledge
skill or equipment but they are still mistakes . From each mistake we
learn more on how to avoid it or in the case of the Indian couple encourage
others to find ways to avoid the mistake, this some times takes long periods
of time to learn what is needed.
> Unless the kickback was caused by internal stress in the wood, the
> relief of which allowed it to close on the blade.
Knowledge of the way the wood was dried and the type of wood would give you
an indication of a problem, use of splitters or other devices on the TS
would either solve or lessen the impact of this problem. If the wood may
have internal stress that would cause it to close on the blade and you don't
use a splitter (you should have gotten one with your TS) then you have made
a mistake and the kick back is not an accident but caused by a mistake.
If I had
>> checked the wood and the setup more carefully the wood would not have
>> exploded because I would not have used a bad peace of wood under
>> stressful conditions.
>
> So how far do you take this checking? Do you do NMR scans on every
> piece of wood you saw to determine the internal structure?
That would be a good way of doing it. I don't have the equipment so I look
at the wood and based on my knowledge I use it or don't use it. Sometimes
I'm wrong thus a mistake if there is a problem and not an "accident", If I
was right then no mistake.
We often need the knowledge of others to help us avoid mistakes, if you go
out of the house for the day you have probably listened to a weather man or
made use of weather data suppled to you by someone else who has knowledge of
the weather. If it is 30 deg below zero and you go out in shorts and a tee
shirt it is not an accident but a mistake. You did not take advantage of
knowledge avaible to you. The same applies to most of our actions in life.
Mistakes and learning how to avoid them can be half the fun of doing
anything including wood work.
So I am saying
>> that all "accidents" are avoidable if you don't make mistakes.
>
> And if you are omniscient and omnipotent perhaps.
When I reach that level all the fun will be gone. Untill then I will strive
to make as few mistakes as I can and learn from the one I do make, and
accept the results of my actions.
>
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Not one small accident in the shop throughout your lifetime?
>>
>> Never did have an accident in the shop, no not one in my lifetime and I
>> have been working with wood for around 50 years. Now if you want to talk
>> stupid dangerous mistakes that's a whole different matter. I have had
>> wood explode in my face, wood come flying back at me from the table saw,
>> wood come flying off the lathe and hitting me in the face, to many cuts
>> and contusions to count, cuts and beat up knuckles from the drill press
>> and a lot of small blood spills on wood. All of my "accidents" were
>> avoidable, if I had known what I was doing, been more careful, thought
>> things through before I acted and not been so cocky. If you want to know
>> which tool I am most careful with and has caused the most accidents in my
>> shop it is the flathead screwdriver. It get used improperly all the
>> time, gets little respect and has knicked me more then once. Number two
>> on the list is my pocket knife for the same reason.
>
>
> I am confused, you start off with,
>
> Never did have an accident in the shop, no not one in my lifetime and I
> have
> been working with wood for around 50 years.
>
> Then you contradict that statement with,
>
> I have had wood explode in my face, wood come flying back at me from the
> table saw, wood come flying off the lathe and hitting me in the face, to
> many cuts and contusions to count, cuts and beat up knuckles from the
> drill press and a lot of small blood spills on wood. All of my
> "accidents" were avoidable, if I had known what I was doing, been more
> careful, thought things through before I acted and not been so cocky.
>
> Can you explain the change in comments?
> You do realize that accidents are often the result of mistakes.
Accident: unavoidable or unexpected event, usually of a negative nature.
All "accidents" are caused by or are the result of mistakes. If I had
checked the wood and the setup more carefully the wood would not have
exploded because I would not have used a bad peace of wood under stressfull
conditions. If I had checked the set up of my TS fence, hight of the blade
and and other TS setup and safety issues before I cut I would not have had a
kick back. The list goes on and on when ever I make a mistake and do not do
the proper thing with my tools, I stand the chance of an "accident' due to
my mistakes. So I am saying that all "accidents" are avoidable if you don't
make mistakes. When you say you have had an accident you are saying that
some where along the line you made a mistake that resulted in an "accident".
I am not saying that bad things don't happen in my shop I am saying that
they could be avoided, and some times I learn how to avoid them through
having "accidents" which are my fault. So even though I have a lot of
mishaps in my shop they are my fault and are avoidable if I took the time
and effort to prevent them, which I will probably never do as well as I
would like to.
>
>
>
>
** Frank ** wrote:
> Most of the tools I have, I'm pretty confident using it. My first
> worm drive Skil circular saw had so much power as it would kick as
> soon as the trigger is pulled and would run away if both hands were
> not holding on to the saw, especially cutting up the floor. Pretty
> lucky with the tablesaw, couple of kickbacks was all and one loose
> carbide tip fling across the room at lightning speed. Drill press bit
> bind on a workpiece and almost took my hand off. Than came the
> chainsaw on the last cut on a 50 foot tree where it lean backward and
> bind the chain. The saw was useless at that point and I had no idea
> where that tree was going to land . Up to that point my most
> intimidating operation was ripping on a radial arm saw when the
> tablesaw was out of commission. Now the number spot, although not
> woodworking, is the handheld 14" gas saw with a composite cutting
> blade for steel. Couple of those blades blew up on me cutting at full
> throttle - just like a bomb went off. With about 5 hp at 4,000 rpm in
> your hands, you really have to think before hand how the cut is to be
> made and try to anticipate at what point the blade is going to bind
> or the work is going to shift and avoid the line of sight from the
> rotating blade or chain.
>
> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
My brain, because it's the one that lets situations develop that result
in the others doing harm.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
sweet sawdust wrote:
...
> Accident: unavoidable or unexpected event, usually of a negative nature.
>
> All "accidents" are caused by or are the result of mistakes.
That contradicts the first of the two alternative definitions above--and
isn't true, either.
> ...If I had checked the wood and the setup more carefully the wood would not have
> exploded because I would not have used a bad [piece] of wood under stressful
> conditions. ...
That assumes the defect was detectable from a visual inspection or other
indications. It's quite possible it wouldn't show up under tests
normally available in a woodshop.
While certainly a large number of accidents are either wholly caused by
or made significantly worse by carelessness of willful disregard for
safe operation, it is certainly not the entire cause.
That said, caution is, in general, A Good Thing (tm)...
--
sweet sawdust wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Not one small accident in the shop throughout your lifetime?
>>>
>>> Never did have an accident in the shop, no not one in my lifetime
>>> and I have been working with wood for around 50 years. Now if you
>>> want to talk stupid dangerous mistakes that's a whole different
>>> matter. I have had wood explode in my face, wood come flying back
>>> at me from the table saw, wood come flying off the lathe and
>>> hitting me in the face, to many cuts and contusions to count, cuts
>>> and beat up knuckles from the drill press and a lot of small blood
>>> spills on wood. All of my "accidents" were avoidable, if I had
>>> known what I was doing, been more careful, thought things through
>>> before I acted and not been so cocky. If you want to know which
>>> tool I am most careful with and has caused the most accidents in my
>>> shop it is the flathead screwdriver. It get used improperly all
>>> the time, gets little respect and has knicked me more then once.
>>> Number two on the list is my pocket knife for the same reason.
>>
>>
>> I am confused, you start off with,
>>
>> Never did have an accident in the shop, no not one in my lifetime
>> and I have
>> been working with wood for around 50 years.
>>
>> Then you contradict that statement with,
>>
>> I have had wood explode in my face, wood come flying back at me
>> from the table saw, wood come flying off the lathe and hitting me
>> in the face, to many cuts and contusions to count, cuts and beat up
>> knuckles from the drill press and a lot of small blood spills on
>> wood. All of my "accidents" were avoidable, if I had known what I
>> was doing, been more careful, thought things through before I acted
>> and not been so cocky.
>>
>> Can you explain the change in comments?
>> You do realize that accidents are often the result of mistakes.
>
> Accident: unavoidable or unexpected event, usually of a negative
> nature.
>
> All "accidents" are caused by or are the result of mistakes.
On January 16, 1825, in India, a man and a woman were struck and killed
by a meteorite. What mistakes on their part brought this about?
While many accidents are caused by mistakes, not all of them are.
> If I had
> checked the wood and the setup more carefully the wood would not have
> exploded because I would not have used a bad peace of wood under
> stressfull conditions.
So how far do you take this checking? Do you do NMR scans on every
piece of wood you saw to determine the internal structure?
> If I had checked the set up of my TS fence,
> hight of the blade and and other TS setup and safety issues before I
> cut I would not have had a kick back.
Unless the kickback was caused by internal stress in the wood, the
relief of which allowed it to close on the blade.
> The list goes on and on when
> ever I make a mistake and do not do the proper thing with my tools, I
> stand the chance of an "accident' due to my mistakes. So I am saying
> that all "accidents" are avoidable if you don't make mistakes.
And if you are omniscient and omnipotent perhaps.
> When
> you say you have had an accident you are saying that some where along
> the line you made a mistake that resulted in an "accident".
So, again, what mistake did that couple in India make?
> I am not
> saying that bad things don't happen in my shop I am saying that they
> could be avoided, and some times I learn how to avoid them through
> having "accidents" which are my fault. So even though I have a lot
> of mishaps in my shop they are my fault and are avoidable if I took
> the time and effort to prevent them, which I will probably never do
> as well as I would like to.
Certainly one should strive to avoid accidents, however that does not
mean that that striving, even if perfectly executed, will prevent all
accidents.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
sweet sawdust wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
...
>> On January 16, 1825, in India, a man and a woman were struck and killed
>> by a meteorite. What mistakes on their part brought this about?
> I still say that all "accidents" are avoidable.
Well, you can say that, but it isn't true for any rational definition of
"all" and "accident"...
> ...The couple in India did not have the knowledge,
> skill or equipment to avoid the meteorite, much of what they needed was not
> avaible to them, thus a mistake occured, resulting in them getting hit by a
> meteorite. Mistakes are not always avoidable with out the right knowledge
> skill or equipment but they are still mistakes . From each mistake we
> learn more on how to avoid it or in the case of the Indian couple encourage
> others to find ways to avoid the mistake, this some times takes long periods
> of time to learn what is needed.
This is simply preposterous. What _precisely_ was the "mistake"? That
they didn't happen to have a yet-to-be-invented-at-the-time technique to
monitor and track meteorites? How can that possibly be a "mistake"?
>> Unless the kickback was caused by internal stress in the wood, the
>> relief of which allowed it to close on the blade.
> Knowledge of the way the wood was dried and the type of wood would give you
> an indication of a problem, ...
So now you have to go back to the sawyer and the kiln to pedigree every
piece of lumber??? Just as preposterous.
PLONK...
sweet sawdust wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
...
>> I gotta disagree, accidents are also caused by events that are totally not
>> in your control. If you are laying in bed and a plane crashes in to you
>> bedroom and you loose an arm, you were involved in an accident and there
>> is no way that you could have prepared for that event. You could have a
>> power outage loose your lights in your shop. The shop goes black and you
>> cut your self. None of these accidents would have been your fault.
>>
>> Simply getting out of bed in the morning sets your self up for a potential
>> and unforeseen accident. Granted most of our mishaps are our own fault
>> but many are not.
> Now we are talking about mistakes by other people not in my control. These
> are still mistakes, just not made by me and which I could control the effect
> of on me. The power outage could be controled by the proper generator set
> up, very expensive though, the plane I have no control over except to locate
> in an area where there are no planes. ...
BS! The power outage could be a lightning strike on your service
entrance -- you got an instantaneous emergency backup system at _your_
house?
There ain't nowhere on the planet that doesn't have an airplane of some
sort, some time...
PLONK (again)...
--
sweet sawdust wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> sweet sawdust wrote:
>>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>> I gotta disagree, accidents are also caused by events that are
>>>> totally not in your control. If you are laying in bed and a
>>>> plane crashes in to you bedroom and you loose an arm, you were
>>>> involved in an accident and there is no way that you could have
>>>> prepared for that event. You could have a power outage loose your
>>>> lights in your shop. The shop goes black and you cut your self.
>>>> None of these accidents would have been your fault.
>>>>
>>>> Simply getting out of bed in the morning sets your self up for a
>>>> potential and unforeseen accident. Granted most of our mishaps
>>>> are our own fault but many are not.
>>> Now we are talking about mistakes by other people not in my control.
>>> These are still mistakes, just not made by me and which I could
>>> control the effect of on me. The power outage could be controled
>>> by the proper generator set up, very expensive though, the plane I
>>> have no control over except to locate in an area where there are no
>>> planes. ...
>>
>> BS! The power outage could be a lightning strike on your service
>> entrance -- you got an instantaneous emergency backup system at
>> _your_ house?
>>
>> There ain't nowhere on the planet that doesn't have an airplane of
>> some sort, some time...
>>
>> PLONK (again)...
>>
>> --
> A generator system can be hardned against a 10+megaton Nuke with EMP
> strike, this would definatly defend it against your average lightning
> strike. Not a cheap system but not as uncommon as you might think.
> No I don't have one and don't won't one, I will endure the results of
> that mistake when it happens. I have not said that you should
> mitigate against all hazzards just that you can if you are willing
> to. As far as the plane is concerned a properly built bunker would
> be one method of stopping that problem, I am sure that there are
> others if you want to look them up. You work on the problems that
> you feel are worthwhile to you.
>
> PLONK (back at you)
Noob. There's no point in "back at you" to someone who has killfiled
you.
<plonk>
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
sweet sawdust wrote:
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> sweet sawdust wrote:
>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> ...
>>>> On January 16, 1825, in India, a man and a woman were struck and
>>>> killed by a meteorite. What mistakes on their part brought this
>>>> about?
>>
>>> I still say that all "accidents" are avoidable.
>>
>> Well, you can say that, but it isn't true for any rational
>> definition of "all" and "accident"...
>>
>>> ...The couple in India did not have the knowledge, skill or
>>> equipment to avoid the meteorite, much of what they needed was not
>>> avaible to them, thus a mistake occured, resulting in them getting
>>> hit by a meteorite. Mistakes are not always avoidable with out the
>>> right knowledge skill or equipment but they are still mistakes .
>>> From each mistake we learn more on how to avoid it or in the case
>>> of the Indian couple encourage others to find ways to avoid the
>>> mistake, this some times takes long periods of time to learn what
>>> is needed.
>>
>> This is simply preposterous. What _precisely_ was the "mistake"?
>> That they didn't happen to have a yet-to-be-invented-at-the-time
>> technique to monitor and track meteorites? How can that possibly be
>> a "mistake"?
>
> The mistake was that they did not plan to protect them selves from a
> meteor strike. They did not study the conditions needed to prevent
> damage to themselves from a meteor strike and take actions to
> mitigate that event. Even with out "yet to be invented technology"
> there was much they could have done. They failed to take those
> measures and suffered the results of thier mistake. Preposterous no,
> You must do a threat assesment of your surroundings and pick which
> events you will prepare for based on the likelyhood of thier occuring
> and the level of damage you will suffer from them. If you figure
> wrong you have made a mistake. The indian couple did not rank
> meteorite threat as very high and did not take the proper steps to
> protect themselves from it, the mistake. The "yet to be invented
> technology" comment was ment to show that it is often hard to
> mitigate against a threat that is almost unknown or hard to predict.
> Prime example is Tornado warnings. I was taught that you can not
> predict tornados only the conditions from which they occur. Tracking
> a tornado was only done in a general way with out knowing precisely
> where it would go, and warning the public in the path of the tornado
> was almost imposible. Now we can predict very closely where a
> tornado may occur and when, we can track it to within a few hundred
> feet and predict its future path very closely. The public can be
> warned of it's approach in time to take shelter with out problems.
> Before the new technology we did a good job of lowering deaths due to
> tornados now we do a better job and will do an even better job in the
> future. Before the new technology you could protect yourself quite
> well from a tornado by gaining knowledge of what to look for and what
> actions to take to prevent damage to yourself, The same applies to
> nearly all events be they meteor strikes or tornados or TS kickbacks.
> The mistake is not in planning.
>>
>>>> Unless the kickback was caused by internal stress in the wood, the
>>>> relief of which allowed it to close on the blade.
>>> Knowledge of the way the wood was dried and the type of wood would
>>> give you an indication of a problem, ...
>>
>> So now you have to go back to the sawyer and the kiln to pedigree
>> every piece of lumber???
>
> Now you have the idea! That would be a very good way to do it. If
> that is not possible then you look for signs that indicate problems,
> such as warping, bowing, skewing, cracking, type of wood mostiure
> content, etc.. Then you take measures to prevent the wood from
> closing on the blade. Things such as wedges in the kerf, spliters,
> riving knives, cross cutting the board to make shorter rip cuts, suit
> of armor what ever is needed or works for your condition to prevent
> injury from the kickback..
>
> Just as preposterous.
>
> Not if you want to prevent a mistake that could lead to an "ACCIDENT"
Lemme guess, you're a lawyer.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Yup, Frank it is.
"** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Most of the tools I have, I'm pretty confident using it. My first worm
> drive Skil circular saw had so much power as it would kick as soon as the
> trigger is pulled and would run away if both hands were not holding on to
> the saw, especially cutting up the floor. Pretty lucky with the tablesaw,
> couple of kickbacks was all and one loose carbide tip fling across the
> room at lightning speed. Drill press bit bind on a workpiece and almost
> took my hand off. Than came the chainsaw on the last cut on a 50 foot tree
> where it lean backward and bind the chain. The saw was useless at that
> point and I had no idea where that tree was going to land . Up to that
> point my most intimidating operation was ripping on a radial arm saw when
> the tablesaw was out of commission. Now the number spot, although not
> woodworking, is the handheld 14" gas saw with a composite cutting blade
> for steel. Couple of those blades blew up on me cutting at full throttle -
> just like a bomb went off. With about 5 hp at 4,000 rpm in your hands, you
> really have to think before hand how the cut is to be made and try to
> anticipate at what point the blade is going to bind or the work is going
> to shift and avoid the line of sight from the rotating blade or chain.
>
> What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
>
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> sweet sawdust wrote:
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> ...
>>> I gotta disagree, accidents are also caused by events that are totally
>>> not in your control. If you are laying in bed and a plane crashes in
>>> to you bedroom and you loose an arm, you were involved in an accident
>>> and there is no way that you could have prepared for that event. You
>>> could have a power outage loose your lights in your shop. The shop goes
>>> black and you cut your self. None of these accidents would have been
>>> your fault.
>>>
>>> Simply getting out of bed in the morning sets your self up for a
>>> potential and unforeseen accident. Granted most of our mishaps are our
>>> own fault but many are not.
>> Now we are talking about mistakes by other people not in my control.
>> These are still mistakes, just not made by me and which I could control
>> the effect of on me. The power outage could be controled by the proper
>> generator set up, very expensive though, the plane I have no control over
>> except to locate in an area where there are no planes. ...
>
> BS! The power outage could be a lightning strike on your service
> entrance -- you got an instantaneous emergency backup system at _your_
> house?
>
> There ain't nowhere on the planet that doesn't have an airplane of some
> sort, some time...
>
> PLONK (again)...
>
> --
A generator system can be hardned against a 10+megaton Nuke with EMP strike,
this would definatly defend it against your average lightning strike. Not a
cheap system but not as uncommon as you might think. No I don't have one
and don't won't one, I will endure the results of that mistake when it
happens. I have not said that you should mitigate against all hazzards just
that you can if you are willing to. As far as the plane is concerned a
properly built bunker would be one method of stopping that problem, I am
sure that there are others if you want to look them up. You work on the
problems that you feel are worthwhile to you.
PLONK (back at you)
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> sweet sawdust wrote:
>
> Certainly one should strive to avoid accidents, however that does not
> mean that that striving, even if perfectly executed, will prevent all
> accidents.
Exactly
Many accidents happen as a lesson to point out that you are only human and
there are greater powers involved that teach you lessons about the way you
think about events. Whether you recognise those lessons or not is another
matter.
The fact that you cut your thumb with a knife at 2:32 pm this afternoon was
a fact that was going to happen before the day you were born.
"BillinDetroit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
>
> Risk mitigation is possible. Risk elimination is not.
>
> I am as careful as I think reasonable around my table saw. That said, my
> left hand is most often near the blade, so my shop phone sits to my right.
>
> I know better than to imagine that I can eliminate all the injuries in my
> shop. I accept that SOME blood will be spilled ... mine. It has been in
> the past and it will be again. I have a first aid kit about 4 steps away
> for the smaller stuff and a cordless phone at arms length for the problems
> too big for self-administered first aid.
>
> I also try to keep my relationship with God on a good foundation because
> there are things that even 911 can't handle.
>
> Bill
Well Said.
"sweet sawdust" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> All "accidents" are caused by or are the result of mistakes. If I had
> checked the wood and the setup more carefully the wood would not have
> exploded because I would not have used a bad peace of wood under
> stressfull conditions. If I had checked the set up of my TS fence, hight
> of the blade and and other TS setup and safety issues before I cut I would
> not have had a kick back. The list goes on and on when ever I make a
> mistake and do not do the proper thing with my tools, I stand the chance
> of an "accident' due to my mistakes. So I am saying that all "accidents"
> are avoidable if you don't make mistakes. When you say you have had an
> accident you are saying that some where along the line you made a mistake
> that resulted in an "accident". I am not saying that bad things don't
> happen in my shop I am saying that they could be avoided, and some times I
> learn how to avoid them through having "accidents" which are my fault. So
> even though I have a lot of mishaps in my shop they are my fault and are
> avoidable if I took the time and effort to prevent them, which I will
> probably never do as well as I would like to.
I gotta disagree, accidents are also caused by events that are totally not
in your control. If you are laying in bed and a plane crashes in to you
bedroom and you loose an arm, you were involved in an accident and there is
no way that you could have prepared for that event. You could have a power
outage loose your lights in your shop. The shop goes black and you cut your
self. None of these accidents would have been your fault.
Simply getting out of bed in the morning sets your self up for a potential
and unforeseen accident. Granted most of our mishaps are our own fault but
many are not.
"Rod & Betty Jo" wrote in message
>
> Well since you mentioned chain saws ...yesterday was one of those
> "days"......I was using a small electric chain saw on a poll extension,
> trimming a flowering pear tree (very brittle) along the sidewalk.....a
> 5inch diameter branch where the lateral leaf canopy almost reached the
> power line into the house, was just asking to be cut. I had cut about
> 2/3rds through the branch when I stopped (depth of cut or visibility
> really sucks with those poll trimmers) and I moved to the other side to
> finish the cut...as I moved (thankfully) the branch split and lunged
> sideways and down into the power line......It yanked the steel support
> cable out and snapped the mast off of the house......The wire itself
> stayed intact although it was now a couple of feet off of the sidewalk and
> not much higher across the street and obviously under great tension with a
> branch stretched across it.....me thinks branches of that size, at least
> without a helper and a rope to control the fall should be avoided with a
> electric poll trimmer.....Rod
>
Did you get into trouble or incur extra costs from the power company?
"** Frank **" <[email protected]> query'd thus:
>What is your most dangerous tool in your homeshop?
The only woodworking injury I have that is still visible came shortly
after I got my first table saw . . . and I caused the injury with a
hand saw.
I was being VERY careful with the table saw, but when the piece I
wanted to crosscut was a little too long to fit on the table saw, I
turned around to cut it with a hand saw and sliced off the tip of my
left index finger instead.
So I guess the most dangerous one is the one I'm being careless with.
--
The 50-50-90 rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something
right, there's a 90% probability you'll get it wrong
In article <[email protected]>, BillinDetroit <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, "sweet sawdust"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> The mistake was that they did not plan to protect them selves from a meteor
>>> strike. They did not study the conditions needed to prevent damage to
>>> themselves from a meteor strike and take actions to mitigate that event.
>>> Even with out "yet to be invented technology" there was much they could have
>>> done. They failed to take those measures and suffered the results of thier
>>> mistake. Preposterous no
>>
>> Speaking of preposterous... perhaps you'd explain exactly what you have in
>> mind that they could have done to protect themselves from a chunk of rock
>> moving eighteen thousand miles an hour.
>>
> Ahh ... if only they had been scanning the sky instead of watching
>where they were walking ...
.. and tripped over a brick, leaving a conundrum for our expert hazard
mitigator.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> sweet sawdust wrote:
>> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>>> sweet sawdust wrote:
>>>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>> On January 16, 1825, in India, a man and a woman were struck and
>>>>> killed by a meteorite. What mistakes on their part brought this
>>>>> about?
>>>
>>>> I still say that all "accidents" are avoidable.
>>>
>>> Well, you can say that, but it isn't true for any rational
>>> definition of "all" and "accident"...
>>>
>>>> ...The couple in India did not have the knowledge, skill or
>>>> equipment to avoid the meteorite, much of what they needed was not
>>>> avaible to them, thus a mistake occured, resulting in them getting
>>>> hit by a meteorite. Mistakes are not always avoidable with out the
>>>> right knowledge skill or equipment but they are still mistakes .
>>>> From each mistake we learn more on how to avoid it or in the case
>>>> of the Indian couple encourage others to find ways to avoid the
>>>> mistake, this some times takes long periods of time to learn what
>>>> is needed.
>>>
>>> This is simply preposterous. What _precisely_ was the "mistake"?
>>> That they didn't happen to have a yet-to-be-invented-at-the-time
>>> technique to monitor and track meteorites? How can that possibly be
>>> a "mistake"?
>>
>> The mistake was that they did not plan to protect them selves from a
>> meteor strike. They did not study the conditions needed to prevent
>> damage to themselves from a meteor strike and take actions to
>> mitigate that event. Even with out "yet to be invented technology"
>> there was much they could have done. They failed to take those
>> measures and suffered the results of thier mistake. Preposterous no,
>> You must do a threat assesment of your surroundings and pick which
>> events you will prepare for based on the likelyhood of thier occuring
>> and the level of damage you will suffer from them. If you figure
>> wrong you have made a mistake. The indian couple did not rank
>> meteorite threat as very high and did not take the proper steps to
>> protect themselves from it, the mistake. The "yet to be invented
>> technology" comment was ment to show that it is often hard to
>> mitigate against a threat that is almost unknown or hard to predict.
>> Prime example is Tornado warnings. I was taught that you can not
>> predict tornados only the conditions from which they occur. Tracking
>> a tornado was only done in a general way with out knowing precisely
>> where it would go, and warning the public in the path of the tornado
>> was almost imposible. Now we can predict very closely where a
>> tornado may occur and when, we can track it to within a few hundred
>> feet and predict its future path very closely. The public can be
>> warned of it's approach in time to take shelter with out problems.
>> Before the new technology we did a good job of lowering deaths due to
>> tornados now we do a better job and will do an even better job in the
>> future. Before the new technology you could protect yourself quite
>> well from a tornado by gaining knowledge of what to look for and what
>> actions to take to prevent damage to yourself, The same applies to
>> nearly all events be they meteor strikes or tornados or TS kickbacks.
>> The mistake is not in planning.
>>>
>>>>> Unless the kickback was caused by internal stress in the wood, the
>>>>> relief of which allowed it to close on the blade.
>>>> Knowledge of the way the wood was dried and the type of wood would
>>>> give you an indication of a problem, ...
>>>
>>> So now you have to go back to the sawyer and the kiln to pedigree
>>> every piece of lumber???
>>
>> Now you have the idea! That would be a very good way to do it. If
>> that is not possible then you look for signs that indicate problems,
>> such as warping, bowing, skewing, cracking, type of wood mostiure
>> content, etc.. Then you take measures to prevent the wood from
>> closing on the blade. Things such as wedges in the kerf, spliters,
>> riving knives, cross cutting the board to make shorter rip cuts, suit
>> of armor what ever is needed or works for your condition to prevent
>> injury from the kickback..
>>
>> Just as preposterous.
>>
>> Not if you want to prevent a mistake that could lead to an "ACCIDENT"
>
> Lemme guess, you're a lawyer.
No A Toy Maker
Also head of the Local Emergency Planning Commision and a former Emergency
Manager
>
> --
> --
> --John
> to email, dial "usenet" and validate
> (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
>
>
"** Frank **" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Not one small accident in the shop throughout your lifetime?
Never did have an accident in the shop, no not one in my lifetime and I have
been working with wood for around 50 years. Now if you want to talk stupid
dangerous mistakes that's a whole different matter. I have had wood explode
in my face, wood come flying back at me from the table saw, wood come flying
off the lathe and hitting me in the face, to many cuts and contusions to
count, cuts and beat up knuckles from the drill press and a lot of small
blood spills on wood. All of my "accidents" were avoidable, if I had known
what I was doing, been more careful, thought things through before I acted
and not been so cocky. If you want to know which tool I am most careful
with and has caused the most accidents in my shop it is the flathead
screwdriver. It get used improperly all the time, gets little respect and
has knicked me more then once. Number two on the list is my pocket knife
for the same reason.