Re: Sharing photos from lighting experiment

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:50:57 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> have to review my FMC fundamentals and do some more drywall work to do
>>
>> FMC? http://www.fmc.com/ ? !
>
>
> From reading briefly about FMC, Rigid (EMT) is preferred. So I am
>drawing up an EMT solution to pass in front of your critical eyes.

<giggle>


>What I actually read is that, preferably, FMC is used in lengths of no
>more than 24". Comments welcome.

I thought you might use it to go from the ceiling to the wall.


>I'm having a "big time" doing my conduit bends in SketchUp! : )

Got a bender yet? 1/2" emt is easy to work with. Go with light gauge
wire and I think you can use it. Consult your NEC.

Hell, you'll get this thing done by Easter if you keep going!

P.S: Prime and paint the furring strips and emt before putting them
up. Clean emt and fittings with lacquer thinner on a rag and it will
take off the machining oils.

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

Bill wrote:

>
>
> I put a revised drawing (pdf) on my website Mike.
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> The conduit should reach the ceiling after it exits the wall (that
> particular detail is not depicted as well as it could possibly be in
> the drawing). I hope the drawing helps clear things up.

It does show it clearly Bill.

>
> Since I'm going to put a conduit body (a "pull point") on the end of
> that piece of EMT, that will give me 4 more 90 degree bends on the
> next piece of EMT if I need them! :)
>

I see no reason for that pull point.You're not going to be bending that
conduit into any or many other directions before you hit a junction point,
so the pull will serve no purpose. Small pull points are a pain in the ass
to work with and you'll regret using them where they are not needed.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 02:13:56 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
> wrote:
*snip*
>>Painting the floor sounds alot like planting grass seed.
>
> Painting or touchup once or twice a year is a whole lot less
> maintenance than mowing weekly, fertilizing, sprinkler systems, mower
> service, mower purchase, gas, oil, etc. A whole lot less.
> And once you've worked on a painted floor, you'll never go back. If
> you drop only one precious spring or screw in that time, you'll thank
> your lucky stars. Dust cleanup is easier, too. And think of all the
> -cushioning- all those mils of paint give your feet!
*snip*
>

I've had a couple painted concrete floors that started to peel after a
short period of time. (Just a few years.) I want to stress the
importance of proper prep, as I think that's what's causing the issues
with peeling paint. (Improper prep.)

I guess some methods require a muriatic acid wash or etch to ensure good
paint adhesion.

One last tip: If you're working with a precious spring sweep the whole
area before beginning the project. That way, it'll show up better as it
inevitably jumps yards away.

Puckdropper

Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:04:32 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>BTW, a little trick I invented for finding those lost
>>springs and screws is a powerful magnet (I've got a 2 inch stack
>>someone gave me from electronic devices--equivalent to the "rare
>>earth" variety, I think). It even works in the grass!
>
> I'm sure it's really fun finding a 1/8" dia x 1/2" long spring in
> 2,463 sf of grass.

If you simply attach several rare earth magnets to the front of your
mower, it might pick up the spring next time you mow the grass.

One of those sandblast/medical isolation chambers with the attached
rubber gloves might be just the thing for keeping springs where you can
find them. You could even build your own without the gloves. (I'd
probably STILL lose one once in a while.)


>>
>>Good, I don't need to fear "dust" in my finshes? Or just, rolling it
>>off the ceiling? : )
>
> With the whole room painted, from the ceiling. If you cut wood,
> you'll always have dust.
>

I've been intending to build a finishing booth (even got some good
advice here about it) and just haven't gotten that far yet. It's
nothing more than a 3/4" PVC pipe frame covered with some cloth to keep
the dust out of the finish. No glue, so it can be disassembled later.

Puckdropper

Somebody wrote:

>BTW, a little trick I invented for finding those lost
>springs and screws is a powerful magnet (I've got a 2 inch stack
>someone gave me from electronic devices.
---------------------------------------
Those are known as "Jesus springs/screws" as in Jesus, where it go?

Over my career, I litterly gave away thousands of screwdrivers with a
small magnet one end.

Only problem with the screwdrivers is they had a set of hidden legs
which helped them to run away and hide.

Same people kept asking for replacements<grin>.

Lew

"Swingman" wrote
>
> _ANY_ borg will have a display of books covering, in detail, every
> conceivable issue you bring up.
>
> You could buy a book, read, comprehend, and execute, and be done with much
> quicker that typing a question and waiting on responses.
>
Yep. Have done that one before. And end up with a good reference book on
the shelf to consult when other problems crop up in the future.

Heck, I have even gone to the Borg, looked up the pertinent info, bought my
parts and went home and fixed the problem. Look for the books with LOTS of
illustrations. Illustrations is a lost art. Those simple drawings do a
much better job of communicating what you need to do than photos. Look for
lots of color illustrations. Read carefully. Then, to quote a number of
favorite teachers of mine, FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS!! Don't get creative,
don't wing it, just follow the damn instructions. Particularly when doing
electrical work.

End of rant.

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:56:43 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Good idea. Take a quart sprayer with water in it up to the ceiling
>> and test an area you'll cover with a fixture.
>> http://goo.gl/RlZfC This is the stuff, right?
>
>Larry, I put a fresh picture on my web site:
>
>http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
>I apologize that it's 5 MB, but this jpg accurately reveals the hidden
>beauty of the stuff.

Beauty? Eye of the beholder, I guess.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stipple

I don't call that stipple, and have never heard that term used outside
of the art world. It's a drawing and painting technique.

I'd call your ceiling textured (drywall compound put on wet and the
trowel pulled straight off?) but it's unlike any I've seen before.
I think you'll be safe to paint it (good primer, then regular paint),
but I'd wet or paint a small section to see if it separated from the
roof before doing the full paint job. Use a 3/4" or deeper nap on the
roller for filling those voids. Lambswool is great for the deeper
textures. You'll likely lose some of the longer stalactites, so have a
brush comb ready to clean them out of the roller. I still think
spraying is the way to go for that size room, old sport, especially if
you value your time at all. (No cutting-in!)

Carry on! (Or carrion, if you fall off the ladder. ;)

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

Eric wrote:

>
> Geeesh Bill!
> I hope that isn't 1/2" EMT going to a 4 gang light switch box on the
> wall!
> There is a limit of conductors (just like boxes) to each conduit
> size, also. IIRC 7 conductors of #14 cu are allowed in a 1/2" (only
> current carrying conductors are counted). For 3/4" (probably the max
> size you will get into the K.O. hole on the box) I would have to
> look it up, it's been such a long time since small conduit usage for
> me.

9 #12 conductors or 12 #14 conductors in 1/2 EMT.


>
> Remember max two 90 bends in any "pull of wire run" without a "break"
> or "pull" point.

360 degrees between pull points (4 90 degree bends). Offsets count.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Eric wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
>> I put a revised drawing (pdf) on my website Mike.
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> The conduit should reach the ceiling after it exits the wall (that
>> particular detail is not depicted as well as it could possibly be in
>> the drawing). I hope the drawing helps clear things up.
>>
>> Since I'm going to put a conduit body (a "pull point") on the end of
>> that piece of EMT, that will give me 4 more 90 degree bends on the
>> next piece of EMT if I need them! :)
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> =============
>>
>> Geeesh Bill!
>> I hope that isn't 1/2" EMT going to a 4 gang light switch box on the
>> wall!
>
> No, it's coming from a new 3-gang light switch box in the wall, just
> for lighting--though I haven't installed anything yet. Some of the
> smartest eyes in the business have already looked it over. What is
> your concern?

There should be no concern Bill - whether it's a 3 gang or a 4 gang. Don't
sweat it.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>Eric wrote:
>
>>
>> Geeesh Bill!
>> I hope that isn't 1/2" EMT going to a 4 gang light switch box on the
>> wall!
>> There is a limit of conductors (just like boxes) to each conduit
>> size, also. IIRC 7 conductors of #14 cu are allowed in a 1/2" (only
>> current carrying conductors are counted). For 3/4" (probably the max
>> size you will get into the K.O. hole on the box) I would have to
>> look it up, it's been such a long time since small conduit usage for
>> me.
>
>9 #12 conductors or 12 #14 conductors in 1/2 EMT.

Not that I'd care to pull either of those :-)

scott

On 8/25/2011 1:02 PM, Swingman wrote:

Disregard the obvious typo ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> writes:
>Bill wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I put a revised drawing (pdf) on my website Mike.
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> The conduit should reach the ceiling after it exits the wall (that
>> particular detail is not depicted as well as it could possibly be in
>> the drawing). I hope the drawing helps clear things up.
>
>It does show it clearly Bill.
>
>>
>> Since I'm going to put a conduit body (a "pull point") on the end of
>> that piece of EMT, that will give me 4 more 90 degree bends on the
>> next piece of EMT if I need them! :)
>>
>
>I see no reason for that pull point.You're not going to be bending that
>conduit into any or many other directions before you hit a junction point,
>so the pull will serve no purpose. Small pull points are a pain in the ass
>to work with and you'll regret using them where they are not needed.
>

Concur. I also recommend getting some snot (wire pulling lubricant); pulling
all those wires through 1/2" EMT will go much better with liberal goop application.

Note that provided you use permitted and listed means to install your conduit, you can
use the conduit itself as a grounding conductor; this requires that you bond the
conduit to ground (at the beginning of the conduit run is preferable). Do note that
any metallic junction boxes must be bonded to the grounded conductor (either via the
conduit, or via a grounding screw), and metallic junction boxes must be used if you wish
to use the conduit as the grounding conductor.

scott

Swingman wrote:
> On 8/21/2011 11:20 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> I read the explanation but I feel like I'm hearing the joke 40 years
>> after everyone else laughed.
>
> What else is new?
>
> I don't think I've ever seen anyone agonize over the most trivial
> building/electrical issues. :)
>
> _ANY_ borg will have a display of books covering, in detail, every
> conceivable issue you bring up.
>
> You could buy a book, read, comprehend, and execute, and be done with
> much quicker that typing a question and waiting on responses.

Not to mention a plethora of You Tube videos and pdf files revealed by a
simple google search. Bill just needs to learn to search and to accept what
he sees in the resultant returns - without overcomplicating everything.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> Yes. Thank for that suggestion, but I will use a ground wire (too). I
> didn't/don't have any idea how hard it would be to pull five 14 guage
> wires through a few bends. Is that fact that my wire is "solid"
> (rather than stranded) going to make this *very* difficult? If so, I
> could exchange all my wire. I will look for the wire pulling
> lubricant as you suggested.
>

By all means - pull a ground wire through the conduit. Pulling 5 #14's
through a 1/2" conduit would be quite easy - if you had bought stranded
instead of solid wire. Pulling solid is harder but for your runs, it really
should not be so difficult as to cause you a real problem. Do some google
searches as I suggested before, before you do anything. You can find tons
of stuff on all of the aspects of wiring with conduit and you should really
invest that time. You'll save yourself time,. money, and a lot of questions
here. If you're only pulling 10 feet before you hit a pull box of some
sort, then you should have no problem even without lube. You can probably
push that through with no lube.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 8/22/2011 2:43 PM, Bill wrote:
> Swingman wrote:


>> _ANY_ borg will have a display of books covering, in detail, every
>> conceivable issue you bring up.
>>
>> You could buy a book, read, comprehend, and execute, and be done with
>> much quicker that typing a question and waiting on responses.
>>
>
> It's not all about being "done".
>
> Sometimes I even create threads to promote discussion of what I perceive
> are things of general interest (like hammers). Even on simple things, we
> do not have agreement (use of EMT or FMT for instance?).
>
> Sometimes I even take photos or create SketchUp models to help make my
> posts more interesting (and it's good practice for me).
>
> You were the one who suggested you don't want to read how to cut a
> dove-tail joint everyday. I'm playing right into your hand, no?

No, you're not ... a dovetail joint is not regulated by a code, nor is
it generally dangerous in the wrong hands.

You miss the point ... a book on electrical installation, and
particularly the DIY versions for reasons of liability, will have, more
often than not, been written by an expert in the field, edited by same,
and published with a fairly good guarantee of overall correctness.

Here you are mostly getting the noise of self-styled experts who have no
more qualifications in the matter than you do.

Which would you rather build your future on?

That's not to say that you can't get good advice here (Doug Miller (who
knows more about the various NEC's than any electrician I've ever paid
for), Lew Hodges, Mike Marlowe, to name just a few), but just trying to
read one of the threads attempting to answer your myriad of question,
which always seem to beget more questions than answers, and it is
apparent to an outside observer with a bit of knowledge on the subject,
that the wheat gets lost in the chaff/noise.

You're obviously too close to the forest to see the trees, or even
recognize a tree (analogy only) ... that's why I said what I said, and
why Lee did also.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:29:10 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 17:34:52 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Today I picked up a Red Dot brand 3-gang external switch box (for "wet
>>>>> locations") from Kirby-Risk.
>>>>
>>>> Oy, vay! Well, at least you have one.
>>>> Why waterproof? Because you wanted surface-mount?
>>>
>>> Yes, I was going to go behind the scenes with flexible metal conduit,
>
>> Your loss.

Oh, _that_ FMC.


>I think I agree with you. I think I'm going to take the box back. Thank
>you for helping to give me the strength to change my mind.

Jewelcome. (Send money.)


>No doubt
>others would do it a differently--and most of them would surely be
>finished by now.

<chortle>


>On the positive side, consideration of this approach
>was educational. If I am unable to thread the FMC and stay within the
>code, in my circumstances, then I can come back to this approach.

Having done drywall now, and probably having another piece 19" wide
and 4' long, you could just cut out the piece over the wiring and run
the conduit to the box, then quickly replace the drywall, mud/sand and
prime/paint. Piece o' cake, duck soup.

This kind of work is what the HF multifunction tool excels at. Use the
half moon cutter butted against a piece of furring strip for straight
cuts.

>The technicalities concern how much of the FMC is allow to be exposed
>(4', I believe). I may have to do some new out of the box thinking.

Here he goes again...

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

Bill wrote:

>
> Then it occurred to me:
> I could just bend one piece of EMT to run from the switchbox, up the
> stud, and finish with a 90 degree bend coalescing with the ceiling,
> attaching one these C-type EMT connectors to the end. This eliminates
> the "middle" box in my earlier drawing.
>
> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100177497/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202890940
>

I'm really confused now Bill. I had looked at your SketchUp depiction on
the web link you posted but I could not figure it out. The lines running as
they do did not depict your thoughts well for me. So - I guess I'm back to
the drawing board and do not understand your real intenet at all - though I
thought I did to some extent earlier. You would have no need for that
connector. Place a pull string through the conduit as you assemble it and
you can simply pull your wires along later. I can't think of a reason you'd
need this connector in your plan.

Maybe you should start over and give us a better depiction of what you have
now and what you plan to do. Maybe others understand it better than I do -
but it sure does not seem so.

> Not too bad, huh? It somehow represents our collective wisdom.

Or confusion...


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:58:15 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> BTW, a little trick I invented for finding those lost
>>> springs and screws is a powerful magnet (I've got a 2 inch stack someone
>>> gave me from electronic devices--equivalent to the "rare earth" variety,
>>> I think). It even works in the grass!
>>
>> I'm sure it's really fun finding a 1/8" dia x 1/2" long spring in
>> 2,463 sf of grass.
>
>Seach for How To FANIAHS.

I buy sewing needles by the box full, and I take lonely ladies to the
haystack.


>>> "Two steps forward and three steps back, you'll never get very far like
>>> that..." (words from a popular country song in the mid 80's, I think).
>>
>> Uh, Clem.
>
>You mean Clement?

Uh, Clem. (archaic humorous 1971 CD reference: Firesign Theater's "I
Think We're All Bozos On This Bus") Some 'splaining is done here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Think_We%27re_All_Bozos_on_This_Bus


--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

On 8/21/2011 11:20 PM, Bill wrote:

> I read the explanation but I feel like I'm hearing the joke 40 years
> after everyone else laughed.

What else is new?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone agonize over the most trivial
building/electrical issues. :)

_ANY_ borg will have a display of books covering, in detail, every
conceivable issue you bring up.

You could buy a book, read, comprehend, and execute, and be done with
much quicker that typing a question and waiting on responses.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Bill <[email protected]> writes:
>Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> "Mike Marlow"<[email protected]> writes:
>>> Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I put a revised drawing (pdf) on my website Mike.
>>>>
>>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>>
>>>> The conduit should reach the ceiling after it exits the wall (that
>>>> particular detail is not depicted as well as it could possibly be in
>>>> the drawing). I hope the drawing helps clear things up.
>>>
>>> It does show it clearly Bill.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Since I'm going to put a conduit body (a "pull point") on the end of
>>>> that piece of EMT, that will give me 4 more 90 degree bends on the
>>>> next piece of EMT if I need them! :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> I see no reason for that pull point.You're not going to be bending that
>>> conduit into any or many other directions before you hit a junction point,
>>> so the pull will serve no purpose. Small pull points are a pain in the ass
>>> to work with and you'll regret using them where they are not needed.
>>>
>>
>> Concur. I also recommend getting some snot (wire pulling lubricant); pulling
>> all those wires through 1/2" EMT will go much better with liberal goop application.
>>
>> Note that provided you use permitted and listed means to install your conduit, you can
>> use the conduit itself as a grounding conductor;
>
>Yes. Thank for that suggestion, but I will use a ground wire (too). I
>didn't/don't have any idea how hard it would be to pull five 14 guage
>wires through a few bends. Is that fact that my wire is "solid" (rather
>than stranded) going to make this *very* difficult? If so, I could
>exchange all my wire. I will look for the wire pulling lubricant as you
>suggested.

Stranded is much easier to pull, more difficult to terminate. Local code
may constrain your available choices. AWG 12? AWG 14? (3+1+1?) #12 solid will be a
a pull. Definitely lube it.

scott

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 03:37:49 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>
>>>>> My light on the bottom left (of my diagram) is just so it's not dark
>>>>> right where you walk in, because it's adjacent to the attic where there
>>>>> can't be a light. You are correct (below) when you point out that I'm
>>>>> not sure what will happen when the lights are combined and the light
>>>>> bounces off of the walls.
>>>>
>>>> Pure white walls, got it? ;)
>>>
>> Larry, I couldn't find the exact message, but you commented a while back
>> that
>> I had a lot of fixtures corresponding to one of my switches. That stuck
>> in my head
>> and I thought I would let you know that I decided to proceed with this 3
>> switch model:
>>
>> 1 2 | 2
>>
>> 3 3 3
>>
>> 1 2 2
>>
>> 3 | 3
>>
>>
>> That way (1) , (1 and 2) , (3), and (1 and 2 and 3) make sense.
>> It looks alot like Lew's model from months ago, no?

By the way, the two existing lights (marked '|') are on a separate
branch circuit from the main panel. Their switch is conveniently
located next to the door in the kitchen. That those 2 lights are powered
from the main panel, rather than the shop subpanel, makes for a safer
operation, I think.

>
> How many of those are over the area of the garage door?

4, the third "column".

Being able to
> turn those off if you had the door open would be an idea.

Yes, that would be nice. Just another switch and some
more wire I suppose. Perhaps I'll save that for a future enhancement?
I'm in the small group for whom it would Not have occurred to install
lights over the garage door in the first place! ; ) Last summer, I
was planning for 4 new fixtures and somehow that number ballooned to 11,
and the single switch box I had installed became totally inadequate!

Today I picked up a Red Dot brand 3-gang external switch box (for "wet
locations") from Kirby-Risk. If you add together the prices of the
1-gang and 2-gang models at the BORGs, and multiply the result by 3, the
result is just about what I paid. Of course, the price rose 40% after I
told him how many I wanted. At least I finally visited a Kirby-Risk
store..in fact, I visited 2 of them. Before going to Kirby-Risk, I
visited an electrical supplier that went out of business and another one
that didn't actually sell electrical supplies. So yes, it was a full
half-day event, but if I didn't push myself a little I wouldn't have
things to write about. ; )

To install the switch box, are you just supposed to drill some holes
through the back? I have a more intersting question regarding it's
installation which I'll put in new thread.


Why no flexible conduit for a movable light under
> the attic access hole, hmm?<gd&r>

You're flirting with code violations there, buddy! I think the minor one
is that (I think) flexible conduit needs to be secured every 4 feet!
I do have a shop-light resting just inside the access hole. I could
maybe hang it from the rafters? ;)



>> I will have to go to one of those fancy electrical suppliers to find
>> an external ("weatherproof type") 3-gang swithbox. The Borgs only have
>> the 1 and 2 gang varieties.
>
> Why not leave the original as-is?

Only 1 switch?
Hmmm.. you mean use 2 boxes? Saving money is the only rationale I can
think of for that. Remember, I'm after (like Hemmingway), "A Clean,
Well-lighted Place". Neatness counts! : )


>> Will cleaning the "stipple" on the ceiling with
>> a broom be enough prep for it?
>> I washed the other old surfaces with soap and water.
>
> If you reeeeally want to keep (a truly -bad- idea) the popcorn, you'll
> have to use a special paint on it. Talk to the paint store nerd.

He steered me towards the primer I mentioned (for everything). He
(salesguy at Menards) was suggesting DutchBoy paint for everything.
White!


> You'll want to roll the shop, and throwaway brushes can handle cutting
> in. Important note: cut-in and paint 8' wide areas so the cutins
> don't dry or they'll show. I finally learned that trick, decades late.
>

I have found cutting in about 4 inches to be adequate. I already learned
the lesson on not getting too far ahead of yourself on the cutting-in. I
did a lot of painting for 2 summers when I was 19-20. All of my old
supplies are long gone but I mostly remember how to do it though I feel
like I've lost the rhythm. I had my "system" down pretty well, but I
never painted new work or stipple.

> Early mornings and late nights solve that problem, especially since
> you can now sleep in if you're up late. I'm up at 4am most mornings,
> and 95% awake before my little toes hit the carpet, so early mornings
> are when I get a lot of work done. Anything inside and quiet work
> outside.

Working at night suits me fine, but I don't have a good place to clean
up (drywall mud, etc.) in the dark. Getting up dang-early sounds like a
good way to go. It integrates better for getting other things done too.

>
>
>> Even the grass is growing slow. : )
>
> Mine isn't until I water it. That's why I want to get rid of it.

Grass is a time burner fo' sho'. Weeds may even be worse. I picked 6
hours worth of old ones along the curb this week. Roots were up to 8+
inches. On the 2nd day I started using a pair of pliers along with the
standard week tool (which I recommend).


Thanks for your help!
Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> Today I picked up a Red Dot brand 3-gang external switch box (for "wet
>> locations") from Kirby-Risk.
>
> Oy, vay! Well, at least you have one.
> Why waterproof? Because you wanted surface-mount?

Yes, I was going to go behind the scenes with flexible metal conduit,
but Doug Miller talked me into surface-mount.


> http://goo.gl/2REjZ (rub, rub)

They seem to have a nice assortment of covers. Thanks. Why all the
rubbing? You got dust in your eyes? ;)


>> Only 1 switch?
>> Hmmm.. you mean use 2 boxes? Saving money is the only rationale I can
>> think of for that. Remember, I'm after (like Hemmingway), "A Clean,
>> Well-lighted Place". Neatness counts! : )
>
> 2 boxes. Original switch where it is, add for the other circuits.
> Logic vs ARmingway.<shrug>

"A Clean, Well-lighted Place" should not feature unnecessary
distractions. It may also be good for business if I exhibit a good
sense of styylle. lol.. : ) I don't think I want people to feel like
they are standing in the Sanford Arms (an archaic tv reference).



> Latex primer on popcorn will accomplish the same stripping effect I
> suggested, but not quite what you expected.

Hmmm... Thank you for the heads up. It's not really "popcorn", it's
flatter, but I assume your comment still applies. I clearly need to
investigate this further. From your comments, it sounds like the stuff
is going to roll right off the ceiling while I try to paint it. Correct?


>> I had my "system" down pretty well, but I
>> never painted new work or stipple.
>
> Other than _having_ to prime, it's not much different. Popcorn, OTOH,
> is a whole 'nother bag of shit. Evil stuff just waiting to fark ya.
> You obviously have no idea the evil you're dealing with, but you will.
> Within 6" of the first roller touching it.<titter>

Oh Boy....


>
> I'd rent an airless and spray the whole thing (-after- depopcorning.)
> Go primer @ 7am, paint @ noon, take the afternoon off, then put up the
> bats and fixtures the next morning.

Why *spray* the ceiling instead of rolling it? That would seem to
create more work covering stuff. I think I can reach everything with the
5' handles I have (I found one handle attached to a brush I use for
cleaning the deck and another one on a sidewalk sweeper).

I need to take time out to grumble some about the popcorn...

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

> Good idea. Take a quart sprayer with water in it up to the ceiling
> and test an area you'll cover with a fixture.
> http://goo.gl/RlZfC This is the stuff, right?

Larry, I put a fresh picture on my web site:

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

I apologize that it's 5 MB, but this jpg accurately reveals the hidden
beauty of the stuff.

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> "A Clean, Well-lighted Place" should not feature unnecessary
>> distractions. It may also be good for business if I exhibit a good
>> sense of styylle. lol.. : ) I don't think I want people to feel like
>> they are standing in the Sanford Arms (an archaic tv reference).
>
> <arachaic TV reference entirely lost on me>

Redd Foxx often referred to the "Sanford Arms" in describing his estate
on his tv show.


>>> I'd rent an airless and spray the whole thing (-after- depopcorning.)
>>> Go primer @ 7am, paint @ noon, take the afternoon off, then put up the
>>> bats and fixtures the next morning.
>>
>> Why *spray* the ceiling instead of rolling it? That would seem to
>> create more work covering stuff.
>
> Not if you're going to paint the floor. (recommended)
> 2/3 of those inexpensive 10x25' rolls of plastic would do it.
>

I just happen to have most of a 8'x100' roll I used to cover my DP and
BS. It's 3mil thick. I observed that it's more slippery to walk on than
the really cheap painters plastic (which is more like the plastic bags
used in retail).

Painting the floor sounds alot like planting grass seed.


> Spraying is considerably quicker and a whole lot less work.

If I had a sprayer ready to go it might be more work. We're only talking
about 500 square feet. The prep. sounds much more time consuming. I
will wait until you examine the picture I posted for you on my web site
(see other message).

>
>
>> I need to take time out to grumble some about the popcorn...
>
> Good idea. Take a quart sprayer with water in it up to the ceiling
> and test an area you'll cover with a fixture.
> http://goo.gl/RlZfC This is the stuff, right?
> http://goo.gl/w9cTO Quick removal.
>
> --
> It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
> not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
> -- Freeman Dyson

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:56:43 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>> Good idea. Take a quart sprayer with water in it up to the ceiling
>>> and test an area you'll cover with a fixture.
>>> http://goo.gl/RlZfC This is the stuff, right?
>>
>> Larry, I put a fresh picture on my web site:
>>
>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>
>> I apologize that it's 5 MB, but this jpg accurately reveals the hidden
>> beauty of the stuff.
>
> Beauty? Eye of the beholder, I guess.
>
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stipple
>
> I don't call that stipple, and have never heard that term used outside
> of the art world. It's a drawing and painting technique.
>
> I'd call your ceiling textured (drywall compound put on wet and the
> trowel pulled straight off?) but it's unlike any I've seen before.
> I think you'll be safe to paint it (good primer, then regular paint),
> but I'd wet or paint a small section to see if it separated from the
> roof before doing the full paint job. Use a 3/4" or deeper nap on the
> roller for filling those voids. Lambswool is great for the deeper
> textures. You'll likely lose some of the longer stalactites, so have a
> brush comb ready to clean them out of the roller. I still think
> spraying is the way to go for that size room, old sport, especially if
> you value your time at all. (No cutting-in!)
>
> Carry on! (Or carrion, if you fall off the ladder. ;)
>
> --
> It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
> not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
> -- Freeman Dyson

Thank you!

Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 17:34:52 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>
>>>> Today I picked up a Red Dot brand 3-gang external switch box (for "wet
>>>> locations") from Kirby-Risk.
>>>
>>> Oy, vay! Well, at least you have one.
>>> Why waterproof? Because you wanted surface-mount?
>>
>> Yes, I was going to go behind the scenes with flexible metal conduit,

>
> Your loss.


I think I agree with you. I think I'm going to take the box back. Thank
you for helping to give me the strength to change my mind. No doubt
others would do it a differently--and most of them would surely be
finished by now. On the positive side, consideration of this approach
was educational. If I am unable to thread the FMC and stay within the
code, in my circumstances, then I can come back to this approach.

The technicalities concern how much of the FMC is allow to be exposed
(4', I believe). I may have to do some new out of the box thinking.

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

> Painting or touchup once or twice a year is a whole lot less
> maintenance than mowing weekly, fertilizing, sprinkler systems, mower
> service, mower purchase, gas, oil, etc. A whole lot less.
> And once you've worked on a painted floor, you'll never go back. If
> you drop only one precious spring or screw in that time, you'll thank
> your lucky stars. Dust cleanup is easier, too. And think of all the
> -cushioning- all those mils of paint give your feet!

I've got 3' wide strip of carpeting I often unroll to work on. Besides
for protecting your knees, it keeps your light fixtures from being
scraped up too. BTW, a little trick I invented for finding those lost
springs and screws is a powerful magnet (I've got a 2 inch stack someone
gave me from electronic devices--equivalent to the "rare earth" variety,
I think). It even works in the grass!

>
>
>>> Spraying is considerably quicker and a whole lot less work.

> A paint stick cuts half your time in painting over a brush or roller
> and pan. A sprayer cuts a paint stick's time in half, including rental
> time. Since you'll spray primer and then paint on all 5 surfaces
> 500sf + 4x250sf = 1,500sf) and you can do it without a ladder...

I just looked it up. I had never heard of a paint stick. It appears, I
have to review my FMC fundamentals and do some more drywall work to do
before I'm ready to paint. "Oh when your smiling... " (an archaic
musical reference combined with a tad bit of sacrasm (sic)).

>
>
>>>> I need to take time out to grumble some about the popcorn...
>
> It appears that you don't have popcorn after all. Rejoice!

Good, I don't need to fear "dust" in my finshes? Or just, rolling it
off the ceiling? : )


"Two steps forward and three steps back, you'll never get very far like
that..." (words from a popular country song in the mid 80's, I think).

Puckdropper wrote:
> Larry Jaques<[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 02:13:56 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
> *snip*
>>> Painting the floor sounds alot like planting grass seed.
>>
>> Painting or touchup once or twice a year is a whole lot less
>> maintenance than mowing weekly, fertilizing, sprinkler systems, mower
>> service, mower purchase, gas, oil, etc. A whole lot less.
>> And once you've worked on a painted floor, you'll never go back. If
>> you drop only one precious spring or screw in that time, you'll thank
>> your lucky stars. Dust cleanup is easier, too. And think of all the
>> -cushioning- all those mils of paint give your feet!
> *snip*
>>
>
> I've had a couple painted concrete floors that started to peel after a
> short period of time. (Just a few years.) I want to stress the
> importance of proper prep, as I think that's what's causing the issues
> with peeling paint. (Improper prep.)
>
> I guess some methods require a muriatic acid wash or etch to ensure good
> paint adhesion.
>
> One last tip: If you're working with a precious spring sweep the whole
> area before beginning the project. That way, it'll show up better as it
> inevitably jumps yards away.
>
> Puckdropper


Last time that happened, I was working on a fishing reel at the kitchen
table. The precious little spring jumped into the shag carpeting at
least twice. A magnet helped save my sanity.

BTW, your recommendations to clean the floor well before painting sounds
like good advice!

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

> My shop (garage) floor had been sealed, so it was a matter of getting
> all the old carpet padding adhesive off first. It had been converted
> into another bedroom, so I converted it back. And I had HVAC vent
> installed so it's conditioned. My shop door to the house looks like
> swiss cheese since I drilled it and put in a pair of Filtrete filters
> on the shop side. I don't use any chemicals in there unless the
> outside or garage door is open and a blower is going.

Did you had all of this inspected? Doens't a bedroom have to have a
closet or something like that? j/k : )

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> have to review my FMC fundamentals and do some more drywall work to do
>
> FMC? http://www.fmc.com/ ? !


From reading briefly about FMC, Rigid (EMT) is preferred. So I am
drawing up an EMT solution to pass in front of your critical eyes.

What I actually read is that, preferably, FMC is used in lengths of no
more than 24". Comments welcome.

I'm having a "big time" doing my conduit bends in SketchUp! : )

Bill

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> BTW, a little trick I invented for finding those lost
>> springs and screws is a powerful magnet (I've got a 2 inch stack someone
>> gave me from electronic devices--equivalent to the "rare earth" variety,
>> I think). It even works in the grass!
>
> I'm sure it's really fun finding a 1/8" dia x 1/2" long spring in
> 2,463 sf of grass.

Seach for How To FANIAHS.


>> "Two steps forward and three steps back, you'll never get very far like
>> that..." (words from a popular country song in the mid 80's, I think).
>
> Uh, Clem.

You mean Clement?

Larry Jaques wrote:

>> What I actually read is that, preferably, FMC is used in lengths of no
>> more than 24". Comments welcome.
>
> I thought you might use it to go from the ceiling to the wall.

The problem is that these meet at the eave. You couldn't even get a
screwdriver close to there with taking a nail in the head or arm, let
alone seeing what you are doing. It was all I could do to run romex
through the top plate last summer (I make a hardboard panel to cover up
all the nails between rafters).


>
>
>> I'm having a "big time" doing my conduit bends in SketchUp! : )
>
> Got a bender yet? 1/2" emt is easy to work with. Go with light gauge
> wire and I think you can use it.

Yep, got a bender at auction and have lots of #14 colored wire.

>
> Hell, you'll get this thing done by Easter if you keep going!

Classes start before the end of this week. If I could get things
painted by mid-September (when the avg temp dips below 55), I could hang
lights in the winter.

>
> P.S: Prime and paint the furring strips and emt before putting them
> up. Clean emt and fittings with lacquer thinner on a rag and it will
> take off the machining oils.

Gosh, should I be thinking about furring strips?

Dentatured alcohol okay for removing the machining oils? I know we
don't want a fire, but we don't want rust either, right?

Larry Jaques wrote:

>>> Uh, Clem.
>>
>> You mean Clement?
>
> Uh, Clem. (archaic humorous 1971 CD reference: Firesign Theater's "I
> Think We're All Bozos On This Bus") Some 'splaining is done here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Think_We%27re_All_Bozos_on_This_Bus
>

I read the explanation but I feel like I'm hearing the joke 40 years
after everyone else laughed.

Bill wrote:
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>>> Uh, Clem.
>>>
>>> You mean Clement?
>>
>> Uh, Clem. (archaic humorous 1971 CD reference: Firesign Theater's "I
>> Think We're All Bozos On This Bus") Some 'splaining is done here:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Think_We%27re_All_Bozos_on_This_Bus
>>
>
> I read the explanation but I feel like I'm hearing the joke 40 years
> after everyone else laughed.

That sort of reminds me of AP.

Swingman wrote:
> On 8/21/2011 11:20 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> I read the explanation but I feel like I'm hearing the joke 40 years
>> after everyone else laughed.
>
> What else is new?
>
> I don't think I've ever seen anyone agonize over the most trivial
> building/electrical issues. :)
>
> _ANY_ borg will have a display of books covering, in detail, every
> conceivable issue you bring up.
>
> You could buy a book, read, comprehend, and execute, and be done with
> much quicker that typing a question and waiting on responses.
>

It's not all about being "done".

Sometimes I even create threads to promote discussion of what I perceive
are things of general interest (like hammers). Even on simple things,
we do not have agreement (use of EMT or FMT for instance?).

Sometimes I even take photos or create SketchUp models to help make my
posts more interesting (and it's good practice for me).

You were the one who suggested you don't want to read how to cut a
dove-tail joint everyday. I'm playing right into your hand, no?

Bill

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 8/21/2011 11:20 PM, Bill wrote:
>>
>>> I read the explanation but I feel like I'm hearing the joke 40 years
>>> after everyone else laughed.
>>
>> What else is new?
>>
>> I don't think I've ever seen anyone agonize over the most trivial
>> building/electrical issues. :)
>>
>> _ANY_ borg will have a display of books covering, in detail, every
>> conceivable issue you bring up.
>>
>> You could buy a book, read, comprehend, and execute, and be done with
>> much quicker that typing a question and waiting on responses.
>
> Not to mention a plethora of You Tube videos and pdf files revealed by a
> simple google search. Bill just needs to learn to search and to accept what
> he sees in the resultant returns - without overcomplicating everything.
>

Bill is learning. Besides reading, talking and writing are other ways
of learning--and I don't have anyone that will listen to me talk about
such things. Writing is the only real opportunity I have to USE the
vocabulary (I noted that HTTN != THHN). I guess what I write is a
by-product of what I'm thinking about. Prescribe how you would like me
to organize my posts, and I will try to take it into consideration when
I post. I didn't post to the recent thread on spacing holes because I
didn't feel I could be helpful. Maybe you want to start a different
thread on methods of learning? I promise I will read it.

Swingman wrote:

> That's not to say that you can't get good advice here (Doug Miller (who
> knows more about the various NEC's than any electrician I've ever paid
> for), Lew Hodges, Mike Marlowe, to name just a few), but just trying to
> read one of the threads attempting to answer your myriad of question,
> which always seem to beget more questions than answers, and it is
> apparent to an outside observer with a bit of knowledge on the subject,
> that the wheat gets lost in the chaff/noise.

For someone who was so upset about the way I spelled THHN, that's a
pretty long "run-on" sentence! : ) Actually, I thought about your
message as I was replying to you before dinner, during dinner, and after
dinner. I respect your thoughts, as I so those of others.

Then it occurred to me:
I could just bend one piece of EMT to run from the switchbox, up the
stud, and finish with a 90 degree bend coalescing with the ceiling,
attaching one these C-type EMT connectors to the end. This eliminates
the "middle" box in my earlier drawing.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100177497/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202890940

Not too bad, huh? It somehow represents our collective wisdom.

BTW, there is a difference between reading and writing about playing
with gunpower and actually doing so. I don't come here everyday because
my life is so full of problems. Well, maybe that's not true, I'm not
sure. Ha. It is true that I really enjoy problem solving in a group
context.

Regards,
Bill

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> Then it occurred to me:
>> I could just bend one piece of EMT to run from the switchbox, up the
>> stud, and finish with a 90 degree bend coalescing with the ceiling,
>> attaching one these C-type EMT connectors to the end. This eliminates
>> the "middle" box in my earlier drawing.
>>
>> http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100177497/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053&superSkuId=202890940
>>
>
> I'm really confused now Bill. I had looked at your SketchUp depiction on
> the web link you posted but I could not figure it out.


Yeah, the SketchUp depiction I posted earlier does not reflect the idea
I came up with today. See the other thread for more details. I confirmed
that you understood my intent perfectly.

I'll do another SketchUp drawing. It won't take long and I could use the
practice!

Bill

Mike wrote:
>> I'm really confused now Bill. I had looked at your SketchUp depiction on
>> the web link you posted but I could not figure it out.
>
>
> Yeah, the SketchUp depiction I posted earlier does not reflect the idea
> I came up with today. See the other thread for more details. I confirmed
> that you understood my intent perfectly.
>
> I'll do another SketchUp drawing. It won't take long and I could use the
> practice!
>
> Bill


I put a revised drawing (pdf) on my website Mike.

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

The conduit should reach the ceiling after it exits the wall (that
particular detail is not depicted as well as it could possibly be in the
drawing). I hope the drawing helps clear things up.

Since I'm going to put a conduit body (a "pull point") on the end of
that piece of EMT, that will give me 4 more 90 degree bends on the next
piece of EMT if I need them! :)

Bill

"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

Mike wrote:
>> I'm really confused now Bill. I had looked at your SketchUp depiction on
>> the web link you posted but I could not figure it out.
>
>
> Yeah, the SketchUp depiction I posted earlier does not reflect the idea
> I came up with today. See the other thread for more details. I confirmed
> that you understood my intent perfectly.
>
> I'll do another SketchUp drawing. It won't take long and I could use the
> practice!
>
> Bill


I put a revised drawing (pdf) on my website Mike.

http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

The conduit should reach the ceiling after it exits the wall (that
particular detail is not depicted as well as it could possibly be in the
drawing). I hope the drawing helps clear things up.

Since I'm going to put a conduit body (a "pull point") on the end of
that piece of EMT, that will give me 4 more 90 degree bends on the next
piece of EMT if I need them! :)

Bill

=============

Geeesh Bill!
I hope that isn't 1/2" EMT going to a 4 gang light switch box on the wall!

There is a limit of conductors (just like boxes) to each conduit size, also.
IIRC 7 conductors of #14 cu are allowed in a 1/2" (only current carrying
conductors are counted). For 3/4" (probably the max size you will get into
the K.O. hole on the box) I would have to look it up, it's been such a long
time since small conduit usage for me.

Remember max two 90 bends in any "pull of wire run" without a "break" or
"pull" point.

--

Eric

Scott Lurndal wrote:
> "Mike Marlow"<[email protected]> writes:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I put a revised drawing (pdf) on my website Mike.
>>>
>>> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>>>
>>> The conduit should reach the ceiling after it exits the wall (that
>>> particular detail is not depicted as well as it could possibly be in
>>> the drawing). I hope the drawing helps clear things up.
>>
>> It does show it clearly Bill.
>>
>>>
>>> Since I'm going to put a conduit body (a "pull point") on the end of
>>> that piece of EMT, that will give me 4 more 90 degree bends on the
>>> next piece of EMT if I need them! :)
>>>
>>
>> I see no reason for that pull point.You're not going to be bending that
>> conduit into any or many other directions before you hit a junction point,
>> so the pull will serve no purpose. Small pull points are a pain in the ass
>> to work with and you'll regret using them where they are not needed.
>>
>
> Concur. I also recommend getting some snot (wire pulling lubricant); pulling
> all those wires through 1/2" EMT will go much better with liberal goop application.
>
> Note that provided you use permitted and listed means to install your conduit, you can
> use the conduit itself as a grounding conductor;

Yes. Thank for that suggestion, but I will use a ground wire (too). I
didn't/don't have any idea how hard it would be to pull five 14 guage
wires through a few bends. Is that fact that my wire is "solid" (rather
than stranded) going to make this *very* difficult? If so, I could
exchange all my wire. I will look for the wire pulling lubricant as you
suggested.

Bill


this requires that you bond the
> conduit to ground (at the beginning of the conduit run is preferable). Do note that
> any metallic junction boxes must be bonded to the grounded conductor (either via the
> conduit, or via a grounding screw), and metallic junction boxes must be used if you wish
> to use the conduit as the grounding conductor.
>
> scott

Eric wrote:
>
>
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> I put a revised drawing (pdf) on my website Mike.
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> The conduit should reach the ceiling after it exits the wall (that
> particular detail is not depicted as well as it could possibly be in the
> drawing). I hope the drawing helps clear things up.
>
> Since I'm going to put a conduit body (a "pull point") on the end of
> that piece of EMT, that will give me 4 more 90 degree bends on the next
> piece of EMT if I need them! :)
>
> Bill
>
> =============
>
> Geeesh Bill!
> I hope that isn't 1/2" EMT going to a 4 gang light switch box on the wall!

No, it's coming from a new 3-gang light switch box in the wall, just for
lighting--though I haven't installed anything yet. Some of the smartest
eyes in the business have already looked it over. What is your concern?

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> Yes. Thank for that suggestion, but I will use a ground wire (too). I
>> didn't/don't have any idea how hard it would be to pull five 14 guage
>> wires through a few bends. Is that fact that my wire is "solid"
>> (rather than stranded) going to make this *very* difficult? If so, I
>> could exchange all my wire. I will look for the wire pulling
>> lubricant as you suggested.
>>
>
> By all means - pull a ground wire through the conduit. Pulling 5 #14's
> through a 1/2" conduit would be quite easy - if you had bought stranded
> instead of solid wire. Pulling solid is harder but for your runs, it really
> should not be so difficult as to cause you a real problem. Do some google
> searches as I suggested before, before you do anything. You can find tons
> of stuff on all of the aspects of wiring with conduit and you should really
> invest that time. You'll save yourself time,. money, and a lot of questions
> here. If you're only pulling 10 feet before you hit a pull box of some
> sort, then you should have no problem even without lube. You can probably
> push that through with no lube.
>

Thanks, the longest EMT run is about 7 feet (and you've already seen
it). I'll be cutting a bunch of EMT though. Counting this piece, I need
13 pieces in all. I'm "looking forward" (sort of) to trying to do the
bending. I've seen a few videos. I hate to cheat myself out of
anything by starting out with those 80-cent adapters. They are always
there if I can't hack it! If I screw up my "long run" a few times, I
can always make my shorter runs from the scrap... At $1.79 for a 10
foot piece, I'm not sweating it. After I'm finished, I may bend you an
EMT fish for the wall.. ; ) ><===='>

"Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

Eric wrote:
>
>
> "Bill" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> I put a revised drawing (pdf) on my website Mike.
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/
>
> The conduit should reach the ceiling after it exits the wall (that
> particular detail is not depicted as well as it could possibly be in the
> drawing). I hope the drawing helps clear things up.
>
> Since I'm going to put a conduit body (a "pull point") on the end of
> that piece of EMT, that will give me 4 more 90 degree bends on the next
> piece of EMT if I need them! :)
>
> Bill
>
> =============
>
> Geeesh Bill!
> I hope that isn't 1/2" EMT going to a 4 gang light switch box on the wall!

No, it's coming from a new 3-gang light switch box in the wall, just for
lighting--though I haven't installed anything yet. Some of the smartest
eyes in the business have already looked it over. What is your concern?

======

My apologies! I was thinking of a standard 2 x 3 box. It has been a long
time for this stuff for me.

Our code says you will have to derate your conductors to 80% ampacity (over
3 x #14awg in tubing) but since you are only running lighting circuits off
your switches you will be OK with lower conductor ratings (12A). You should
have about 8 conductors in the tubing if you run all pairs of conductors
with a neutral for each switched circuit. Neutrals can be shared but it can
make later troubleshooting clarity harder.

The trouble spot will be going for romex cables to independent conductors.
You will need an accessible junction box (or come from in the wall behind)
at the end of your EMT to change from romex to individual conductors
otherwise your romex will take all the room in the 1/2" EMT tubing. We don't
allow usage of EMT to provide a grounding mechanism. A separate conductor
must be run.

Good luck pulling those through too many bends. The wire pulling lube is
almost a necessity to help avoid nicks and cuts in the conductors. You will
be able to tell if you have to pull too hard. Small tubes should be
available. It acts soapy and turns into powder when it dries.

--

Eric

Swingman wrote:
>
>
> Running THNN in the conduit before he attaches it to the wall, the
> junction box (if it's not in the attic), and the ganged box, makes it
> much easier to "pull" without risk of nicks.
>
> AAMOF, if his drawing is still operative, I would makeup the entire
> assembly, except for any necessary junction box in the ceiling, on the
> shop bench before mounting it to the wall.

I Will feel more comfortable covering up the whole assembly with drywall
if I run the wire through it first. The idea of doing this occured to
me, but I thought I was being overly "cowardly" about it...

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 00:09:06 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>> On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 03:37:49 -0400, Bill<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> My light on the bottom left (of my diagram) is just so it's not dark
>>>>>> right where you walk in, because it's adjacent to the attic where there
>>>>>> can't be a light. You are correct (below) when you point out that I'm
>>>>>> not sure what will happen when the lights are combined and the light
>>>>>> bounces off of the walls.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pure white walls, got it? ;)
>>>>
>>> Larry, I couldn't find the exact message, but you commented a while back
>>> that
>>> I had a lot of fixtures corresponding to one of my switches. That stuck
>>> in my head
>>> and I thought I would let you know that I decided to proceed with this 3
>>> switch model:
>>>
>>> 1 2 | 2
>>>
>>> 3 3 3
>>>
>>> 1 2 2
>>>
>>> 3 | 3
>>>
>>>
>>> That way (1) , (1 and 2) , (3), and (1 and 2 and 3) make sense.
>>> It looks alot like Lew's model from months ago, no?
>
>By the way, the two existing lights (marked '|') are on a separate
>branch circuit from the main panel. Their switch is conveniently
>located next to the door in the kitchen. That those 2 lights are powered
>from the main panel, rather than the shop subpanel, makes for a safer
>operation, I think.

Yeah, if you don't lose all power. Hang flashlights on some of the
tools and over the bench. These are inexpensive (2 for $3, or often
free with HF coupons from magazines. They store well/light well, and
have a handy hang strap.) http://goo.gl/Dz2jJ http://goo.gl/cq5BB


>> How many of those are over the area of the garage door?
>
> 4, the third "column".

Bueno.


>Being able to
>> turn those off if you had the door open would be an idea.
>
>Yes, that would be nice. Just another switch and some
>more wire I suppose. Perhaps I'll save that for a future enhancement?
>I'm in the small group for whom it would Not have occurred to install
>lights over the garage door in the first place! ; ) Last summer, I
>was planning for 4 new fixtures and somehow that number ballooned to 11,
>and the single switch box I had installed became totally inadequate!

No comment. <kaff, kaff> ;)


>Today I picked up a Red Dot brand 3-gang external switch box (for "wet
>locations") from Kirby-Risk. If you add together the prices of the
>1-gang and 2-gang models at the BORGs, and multiply the result by 3, the
>result is just about what I paid. Of course, the price rose 40% after I
>told him how many I wanted. At least I finally visited a Kirby-Risk
>store..in fact, I visited 2 of them. Before going to Kirby-Risk, I
>visited an electrical supplier that went out of business and another one
>that didn't actually sell electrical supplies. So yes, it was a full
>half-day event, but if I didn't push myself a little I wouldn't have
>things to write about. ; )

Oy, vay! Well, at least you have one.
Why waterproof? Because you wanted surface-mount?
http://goo.gl/2REjZ (rub, rub)


>To install the switch box, are you just supposed to drill some holes
>through the back? I have a more intersting question regarding it's
>installation which I'll put in new thread.
>
>
>Why no flexible conduit for a movable light under
>> the attic access hole, hmm?<gd&r>
>
>You're flirting with code violations there, buddy! I think the minor one
>is that (I think) flexible conduit needs to be secured every 4 feet!
>I do have a shop-light resting just inside the access hole. I could
>maybe hang it from the rafters? ;)

There ya go! <g>


>>> I will have to go to one of those fancy electrical suppliers to find
>>> an external ("weatherproof type") 3-gang swithbox. The Borgs only have
>>> the 1 and 2 gang varieties.
>>
>> Why not leave the original as-is?
>
>Only 1 switch?
>Hmmm.. you mean use 2 boxes? Saving money is the only rationale I can
>think of for that. Remember, I'm after (like Hemmingway), "A Clean,
>Well-lighted Place". Neatness counts! : )

2 boxes. Original switch where it is, add for the other circuits.
Logic vs ARmingway. <shrug>


>>> Will cleaning the "stipple" on the ceiling with
>>> a broom be enough prep for it?
>>> I washed the other old surfaces with soap and water.
>>
>> If you reeeeally want to keep (a truly -bad- idea) the popcorn, you'll
>> have to use a special paint on it. Talk to the paint store nerd.
>
>He steered me towards the primer I mentioned (for everything). He
>(salesguy at Menards) was suggesting DutchBoy paint for everything.
>White!

No, I meant for you to ask a real painter at a real store, sir.
Latex primer on popcorn will accomplish the same stripping effect I
suggested, but not quite what you expected. That could be fun, tho.
Have the wifey take movies of your encounter. It'll be a hit on
YouTube, fer sher. (I really shouldn't have said anything, and simply
let you just have that fine experience, but we're buds... ;)


>> You'll want to roll the shop, and throwaway brushes can handle cutting
>> in. Important note: cut-in and paint 8' wide areas so the cutins
>> don't dry or they'll show. I finally learned that trick, decades late.
>>
>
>I have found cutting in about 4 inches to be adequate. I already learned
>the lesson on not getting too far ahead of yourself on the cutting-in. I
>did a lot of painting for 2 summers when I was 19-20. All of my old
>supplies are long gone but I mostly remember how to do it though I feel
>like I've lost the rhythm.

It comes back to you like riding a bike. Muscle memory.


>I had my "system" down pretty well, but I
>never painted new work or stipple.

Other than _having_ to prime, it's not much different. Popcorn, OTOH,
is a whole 'nother bag of shit. Evil stuff just waiting to fark ya.
You obviously have no idea the evil you're dealing with, but you will.
Within 6" of the first roller touching it. <titter>

I'd rent an airless and spray the whole thing (-after- depopcorning.)
Go primer @ 7am, paint @ noon, take the afternoon off, then put up the
bats and fixtures the next morning.


>> Early mornings and late nights solve that problem, especially since
>> you can now sleep in if you're up late. I'm up at 4am most mornings,
>> and 95% awake before my little toes hit the carpet, so early mornings
>> are when I get a lot of work done. Anything inside and quiet work
>> outside.
>
>Working at night suits me fine, but I don't have a good place to clean
>up (drywall mud, etc.) in the dark. Getting up dang-early sounds like a
>good way to go. It integrates better for getting other things done too.
>
>>
>>
>>> Even the grass is growing slow. : )
>>
>> Mine isn't until I water it. That's why I want to get rid of it.
>
>Grass is a time burner fo' sho'. Weeds may even be worse. I picked 6
>hours worth of old ones along the curb this week. Roots were up to 8+
>inches. On the 2nd day I started using a pair of pliers along with the
>standard week tool (which I recommend).
>
>
>Thanks for your help!
>Bill

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 02:13:56 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> "A Clean, Well-lighted Place" should not feature unnecessary
>>> distractions. It may also be good for business if I exhibit a good
>>> sense of styylle. lol.. : ) I don't think I want people to feel like
>>> they are standing in the Sanford Arms (an archaic tv reference).
>>
>> <arachaic TV reference entirely lost on me>
>
>Redd Foxx often referred to the "Sanford Arms" in describing his estate
>on his tv show.

I watched a handful of his shows, so I'm surprised I missed that one.


>>>> I'd rent an airless and spray the whole thing (-after- depopcorning.)
>>>> Go primer @ 7am, paint @ noon, take the afternoon off, then put up the
>>>> bats and fixtures the next morning.
>>>
>>> Why *spray* the ceiling instead of rolling it? That would seem to
>>> create more work covering stuff.
>>
>> Not if you're going to paint the floor. (recommended)
>> 2/3 of those inexpensive 10x25' rolls of plastic would do it.
>>
>
>I just happen to have most of a 8'x100' roll I used to cover my DP and
>BS. It's 3mil thick. I observed that it's more slippery to walk on than
>the really cheap painters plastic (which is more like the plastic bags
>used in retail).
>
>Painting the floor sounds alot like planting grass seed.

Painting or touchup once or twice a year is a whole lot less
maintenance than mowing weekly, fertilizing, sprinkler systems, mower
service, mower purchase, gas, oil, etc. A whole lot less.
And once you've worked on a painted floor, you'll never go back. If
you drop only one precious spring or screw in that time, you'll thank
your lucky stars. Dust cleanup is easier, too. And think of all the
-cushioning- all those mils of paint give your feet!


>> Spraying is considerably quicker and a whole lot less work.
>
>If I had a sprayer ready to go it might be more work. We're only talking
>about 500 square feet. The prep. sounds much more time consuming. I
>will wait until you examine the picture I posted for you on my web site
>(see other message).

A paint stick cuts half your time in painting over a brush or roller
and pan. A sprayer cuts a paint stick's time in half, including rental
time. Since you'll spray primer and then paint on all 5 surfaces
500sf + 4x250sf = 1,500sf) and you can do it without a ladder...


>>> I need to take time out to grumble some about the popcorn...

It appears that you don't have popcorn after all. Rejoice!

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

Running THNN in the conduit before he attaches it to the wall, the
junction box (if it's not in the attic), and the ganged box, makes it
much easier to "pull" without risk of nicks.

AAMOF, if his drawing is still operative, I would makeup the entire
assembly, except for any necessary junction box in the ceiling, on the
shop bench before mounting it to the wall.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Fri, 19 Aug 2011 03:37:49 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> > Larry Jaques wrote:
> >
> >>> My light on the bottom left (of my diagram) is just so it's not dark
> >>> right where you walk in, because it's adjacent to the attic where there
> >>> can't be a light. You are correct (below) when you point out that I'm
> >>> not sure what will happen when the lights are combined and the light
> >>> bounces off of the walls.
> >>
> >> Pure white walls, got it? ;)
> >
>Larry, I couldn't find the exact message, but you commented a while back
>that
>I had a lot of fixtures corresponding to one of my switches. That stuck
>in my head
>and I thought I would let you know that I decided to proceed with this 3
>switch model:
>
>1 2 | 2
>
>3 3 3
>
>1 2 2
>
>3 | 3
>
>
>That way (1) , (1 and 2) , (3), and (1 and 2 and 3) make sense.
>It looks alot like Lew's model from months ago, no?

How many of those are over the area of the garage door? Being able to
turn those off if you had the door open would be an idea.

I often go out to the shop (like last week, adding shorter belt holes)
and just use the bench/vise for a minute, so lighting just the row
over the bench is another possibile config. I guess your 1 is kinda
sorta like that, but more of a general, softer full-shop lighting.
The original | lights are on 1, oui? 3's kinda weird, but I guess it
fills in the holes. Why no flexible conduit for a movable light under
the attic access hole, hmm? <gd&r>


>Ironicly, I actually formulated it by candlelight following a recent
>lightning
>strike while I had no electricity, cable, phone, or Internet. There was
>nothing to do...

So you a**led it out, eh? Good for you. <giggle>


>I will have to go to one of those fancy electrical suppliers to find
>an external ("weatherproof type") 3-gang swithbox. The Borgs only have
>the 1 and 2 gang varieties.

Why not leave the original as-is?


>I still remember what you said: "pure white". I think I'm going
>to go with egg shell. I prepped an old wall having a lot of old holes
>yesterday. Hopefully I'll be able to
>prime everything soon.

Bueno, bwana.


>Will cleaning the "stipple" on the ceiling with
>a broom be enough prep for it?
>I washed the other old surfaces with soap and water.

If you reeeeally want to keep (a truly -bad- idea) the popcorn, you'll
have to use a special paint on it. Talk to the paint store nerd.


>Except for some "throwaway" brushes I inherited, I don't have any
>painting supplies at all.

You'll want to roll the shop, and throwaway brushes can handle cutting
in. Important note: cut-in and paint 8' wide areas so the cutins
don't dry or they'll show. I finally learned that trick, decades late.


>Hopefully I'll be able to locate a 6 foot handle (I don't want to pay
>dearly for a telescoping one
>since I really don't need it)?

Yes you do, but you just don't realize it yet. I found one on a
squeegee, then got a better one at a garage sale for $3. Now that I've
used them for 9 years, I'd spend $30 on a new one if I needed it.
I put all sorts of things on the end: brushes, rollers, brooms,
squeegees, roof rakes. My 6-footer is the most used. I can roll to
11' high with it, without a ladder.


>I just need to reach over the deer crap
>in the middle of the floor to paint the ceiling...lol.

I dare not ask.


>Silly question: Is one coat of primer (Zinsser, "FastPrime 2, Primer
>and Sealer") all that is typically applied?
>I never primed a wall before; I need to get out more.

Yes, one coat usually does it. It seals the drywall so it doesn't suck
the gloss out of the paint and it takes less paint. Interior primer is
$40-50 for 5gal buckets, and the cheap stuff works fine for your new
(or non-stained old) drywall, if you haven't already bought the
Zinsser.


>Things are progessing a bit slower than I would have liked, as I took a
>few weeks off when the heat and humidity became "oppressive".
>Conditions are much better now.

Early mornings and late nights solve that problem, especially since
you can now sleep in if you're up late. I'm up at 4am most mornings,
and 95% awake before my little toes hit the carpet, so early mornings
are when I get a lot of work done. Anything inside and quiet work
outside.


>Even the grass is growing slow. : )

Mine isn't until I water it. That's why I want to get rid of it.

--
...in order that a man may be happy, it is
necessary that he should not only be capable
of his work, but a good judge of his work.
-- John Ruskin

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:04:32 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>> Painting or touchup once or twice a year is a whole lot less
>> maintenance than mowing weekly, fertilizing, sprinkler systems, mower
>> service, mower purchase, gas, oil, etc. A whole lot less.
>> And once you've worked on a painted floor, you'll never go back. If
>> you drop only one precious spring or screw in that time, you'll thank
>> your lucky stars. Dust cleanup is easier, too. And think of all the
>> -cushioning- all those mils of paint give your feet!
>
>I've got 3' wide strip of carpeting I often unroll to work on. Besides
>for protecting your knees, it keeps your light fixtures from being
>scraped up too.

OK.


>BTW, a little trick I invented for finding those lost
>springs and screws is a powerful magnet (I've got a 2 inch stack someone
>gave me from electronic devices--equivalent to the "rare earth" variety,
>I think). It even works in the grass!

I'm sure it's really fun finding a 1/8" dia x 1/2" long spring in
2,463 sf of grass.


>>>> Spraying is considerably quicker and a whole lot less work.
>
>> A paint stick cuts half your time in painting over a brush or roller
>> and pan. A sprayer cuts a paint stick's time in half, including rental
>> time. Since you'll spray primer and then paint on all 5 surfaces
>> 500sf + 4x250sf = 1,500sf) and you can do it without a ladder...
>
>I just looked it up. I had never heard of a paint stick. It appears, I

http://www.homeright.com/showcat.asp?cat=1


>have to review my FMC fundamentals and do some more drywall work to do

FMC? http://www.fmc.com/ ? !


>before I'm ready to paint. "Oh when your smiling... " (an archaic
>musical reference combined with a tad bit of sacrasm (sic)).

Eek! Not YAAMR!


>>>>> I need to take time out to grumble some about the popcorn...
>>
>> It appears that you don't have popcorn after all. Rejoice!
>
>Good, I don't need to fear "dust" in my finshes? Or just, rolling it
>off the ceiling? : )

With the whole room painted, from the ceiling. If you cut wood,
you'll always have dust.


>"Two steps forward and three steps back, you'll never get very far like
>that..." (words from a popular country song in the mid 80's, I think).

Uh, Clem.

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 17:34:52 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Larry Jaques wrote:
>
>>> Today I picked up a Red Dot brand 3-gang external switch box (for "wet
>>> locations") from Kirby-Risk.
>>
>> Oy, vay! Well, at least you have one.
>> Why waterproof? Because you wanted surface-mount?
>
>Yes, I was going to go behind the scenes with flexible metal conduit,
>but Doug Miller talked me into surface-mount.

Your loss.


>> http://goo.gl/2REjZ (rub, rub)
>
>They seem to have a nice assortment of covers. Thanks. Why all the
>rubbing? You got dust in your eyes? ;)

No, just rubbing in the low, low prices. Neever mind.


>>> Only 1 switch?
>>> Hmmm.. you mean use 2 boxes? Saving money is the only rationale I can
>>> think of for that. Remember, I'm after (like Hemmingway), "A Clean,
>>> Well-lighted Place". Neatness counts! : )
>>
>> 2 boxes. Original switch where it is, add for the other circuits.
>> Logic vs ARmingway.<shrug>
>
>"A Clean, Well-lighted Place" should not feature unnecessary
>distractions. It may also be good for business if I exhibit a good
>sense of styylle. lol.. : ) I don't think I want people to feel like
>they are standing in the Sanford Arms (an archaic tv reference).

<arachaic TV reference entirely lost on me>


>> Latex primer on popcorn will accomplish the same stripping effect I
>> suggested, but not quite what you expected.
>
>Hmmm... Thank you for the heads up. It's not really "popcorn", it's
>flatter, but I assume your comment still applies. I clearly need to
>investigate this further. From your comments, it sounds like the stuff
>is going to roll right off the ceiling while I try to paint it. Correct?

It's highly likely.


>>> I had my "system" down pretty well, but I
>>> never painted new work or stipple.
>>
>> Other than _having_ to prime, it's not much different. Popcorn, OTOH,
>> is a whole 'nother bag of shit. Evil stuff just waiting to fark ya.
>> You obviously have no idea the evil you're dealing with, but you will.
>> Within 6" of the first roller touching it.<titter>
>
>Oh Boy....
>
>
>>
>> I'd rent an airless and spray the whole thing (-after- depopcorning.)
>> Go primer @ 7am, paint @ noon, take the afternoon off, then put up the
>> bats and fixtures the next morning.
>
>Why *spray* the ceiling instead of rolling it? That would seem to
>create more work covering stuff.

Not if you're going to paint the floor. (recommended)
2/3 of those inexpensive 10x25' rolls of plastic would do it.


>I think I can reach everything with the
>5' handles I have (I found one handle attached to a brush I use for
>cleaning the deck and another one on a sidewalk sweeper).

Spraying is considerably quicker and a whole lot less work.


>I need to take time out to grumble some about the popcorn...

Good idea. Take a quart sprayer with water in it up to the ceiling
and test an area you'll cover with a fixture.
http://goo.gl/RlZfC This is the stuff, right?
http://goo.gl/w9cTO Quick removal.

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson

On 21 Aug 2011 16:21:04 GMT, Puckdropper
<puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

>Larry Jaques <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 02:13:56 -0400, Bill <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>*snip*
>>>Painting the floor sounds alot like planting grass seed.
>>
>> Painting or touchup once or twice a year is a whole lot less
>> maintenance than mowing weekly, fertilizing, sprinkler systems, mower
>> service, mower purchase, gas, oil, etc. A whole lot less.
>> And once you've worked on a painted floor, you'll never go back. If
>> you drop only one precious spring or screw in that time, you'll thank
>> your lucky stars. Dust cleanup is easier, too. And think of all the
>> -cushioning- all those mils of paint give your feet!
>*snip*
>>
>
>I've had a couple painted concrete floors that started to peel after a
>short period of time. (Just a few years.) I want to stress the
>importance of proper prep, as I think that's what's causing the issues
>with peeling paint. (Improper prep.)

My shop (garage) floor had been sealed, so it was a matter of getting
all the old carpet padding adhesive off first. It had been converted
into another bedroom, so I converted it back. And I had HVAC vent
installed so it's conditioned. My shop door to the house looks like
swiss cheese since I drilled it and put in a pair of Filtrete filters
on the shop side. I don't use any chemicals in there unless the
outside or garage door is open and a blower is going.

Yes, prep is of utmost importance. Clean the concrete. Let it dry
_completely_. Now seal it if it's not already sealed. (You want that
even if you don't paint it because it stops ALL concrete dust from
flying.) Then paint it.

I've scraped bits off moving tools around, but none has peeled off.


>I guess some methods require a muriatic acid wash or etch to ensure good
>paint adhesion.

Only epoxy, and that's a bear to do, considering prep, neutralization,
and the whole epoxy thing. Pass. I used porch and floor paint.


>One last tip: If you're working with a precious spring sweep the whole
>area before beginning the project. That way, it'll show up better as it
>inevitably jumps yards away.

Yes, or use the dust collector attachment as a vacuum cleaner.

Better yet, open the door and blow it out. </lazy wooddorker>

--
It is characteristic of all deep human problems that they are
not to be approached without some humor and some bewilderment.
-- Freeman Dyson