I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.
There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
really pull?
So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
220v circuit?
Mike wrote:
> I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
> 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
> saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
> the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
> has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
> adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
> wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.
>
> There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
> 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
> circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
> circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
> dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
> find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
> really pull?
>
> So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
> run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
> 220v circuit?
Most likely your building codes will dictate that the dryer has to be on
its own "dedicated" circuit.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
On Mar 17, 11:49=A0pm, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
> >wisdom...:
>
> >> Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. =A0The electric=
al
> >> inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
> >> much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
> >> theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
> >> any lack of knowledge.
>
> >Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. =A0"Most will do a better job th=
an a
> >licensed electrician"... =A0sorry, but that is just pure bull.
>
> No it really isn't. =A0Residential electrical work is quite simple.
> "Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. =A0My previous
> house was a perfect example.
>
> > Over building
> >has nothing to do with doing it the right way. =A0Overbuilders think mor=
e is
> >better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.
>
> It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials
> ("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. =A0Using the best materials
> because the difference isn't significant does matter. =A0All many
> "professionals" care about is cost and time.
Yup. The seasoned smart ones can indeed cut corners in clever fashion.
Those guys are dangerous and plentiful.
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:49:14 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:
> On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
>>wisdom...:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
>>> inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
>>> much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
>>> theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
>>> any lack of knowledge.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a
>>licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull.
>
> No it really isn't. Residential electrical work is quite simple.
> "Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. My previous
> house was a perfect example.
Agreed that residential wiring is quite simple, but I think I'm responding
more to the implied notion that most electricians don't or can't do the job
properly. I also agree that some sub contractors will cut corners, but
often that is defined more by the way owners wish things were done, than by
any real deficency in complying with code. If your house is a perfect
example, then your local inspector is as much to blame as any electrician.
If it's done by code, then it's done right. Maybe not the way you would do
it yourself, but that does not justify denegrading the work of another.
>
>> Over building
>>has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is
>>better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.
>
> It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials
> ("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. Using the best materials
> because the difference isn't significant does matter. All many
> "professionals" care about is cost and time.
Skimping on materials is a subjective statement when it stands all by
itself. Did it pass code inspection? If so, then unless you have a
crooked inspector, it seems hard to imagine skimping on materials. What
does using the best materials mean? It could mean a lot, but it could also
be very subjective. Can't tell from the limited information.
Happens to hit a pet peeve of mine - broad brush statements (especially
those that denegrade others) that all too often are based on preferences
rather than factual, objective critique.
Many times homeowners feel overkill is factually better because it builds
in some protections, or affords greater flexibilities. Many times this
belief is based on a limited knowledge they have of the particular task.
While this can instill a certain confidence in the homeowner, it does not
mean that other ways are somehow less adequate.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:08:55 -0500, dpb cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
> ...
>> ... but that does not justify denegrading the work of another.
> ...
>> ... that denegrade others) ...
>
> OK, pedant that I am, once is an accident, twice is simply wrong...
>
> The word you're looking for is "denigrate"...
Duly noted.
Sure do hate getting caught at spelling errors...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Pushmatic breakers? Probably from the 50's or 60's. FWIW, my electrician
friend who likes to go overboard on everything says they are a fire
waiting to happen. I'd go with a new, upgraded breaker panel with a
sub-panel in the shop. Then you can go out and buy some BIG tools!
Mike wrote:
> I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
> 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
> saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
> the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
> has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
> adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
> wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.
>
> There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
> 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
> circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
> circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
> dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
> find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
> really pull?
>
> So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
> run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
> 220v circuit?
On Mar 16, 8:30=EF=BF=BDam, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sonny wrote:
> > I'm certain his family enjoyed the several jars of home-made
> > blackberry jelly and fig jam I gave him, also.
>
> Anything else you need done? :)
>
> --
> Morris Dovey
> DeSoto Solar
> DeSoto, Iowa USAhttp://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
LOL. I have lots that need to be done.
After having explained what I was doing, with the house next door, the
electrician gave me some tips and advice before he came out. Once he
was here, he inspected what I had done, recommended leaving some
things "live" in the garage and old shop, explained several aspects of
code, etc. in relation to what I did and in assisting me with
subequent wiring-related work to be done, later, in the rest of the
shop. He was as dedicated to my concerns as I was.... going the extra
step in doing a good job with me in mind. That warrants a gratuity.
And, surely, he had to have been a professional, since he wore an
impressive-looking tool belt!
The house had partially burned, so I was able to purchase it cheap.
I've been remodeling it, since then, as a shop. I need help with
heavy lifting, sometimes. I'm doing a little interior work, at the
moment, and will be doing more exterior work, soon, as the weather is
warming up, nicely. I always give a token of appreciation to those
who give an extra hand in assistance.
On another note, I've discovered the property, as a residence, itself,
has a higher tax assessed to it than if I would have the property
enjoined to my home property, creating one larger single residence.
I've learned this is not hard to get done, in my particular
circumstance, and a one-time fee of about $800, for surveying and
legal filing, would result in an overall tax assessment/bill of about
$500 per year less than I am presently paying. And one doesn't have
to be an electrician, impressive tool belt or not, to figure that one
out.
Sonny
Sonny wrote:
> On Mar 16, 8:30�am, Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Sonny wrote:
>>> I'm certain his family enjoyed the several jars of home-made
>>> blackberry jelly and fig jam I gave him, also.
>> Anything else you need done? :)
>
> LOL. I have lots that need to be done.
:) It was a rhetorical question - and I like how you show appreciation.
> After having explained what I was doing, with the house next door, the
> electrician gave me some tips and advice before he came out. Once he
> was here, he inspected what I had done, recommended leaving some
> things "live" in the garage and old shop, explained several aspects of
> code, etc. in relation to what I did and in assisting me with
> subequent wiring-related work to be done, later, in the rest of the
> shop. He was as dedicated to my concerns as I was.... going the extra
> step in doing a good job with me in mind. That warrants a gratuity.
> And, surely, he had to have been a professional, since he wore an
> impressive-looking tool belt!
Sounds like a "keeper". Hmm - I wonder if a good tool belt would do
anything for my (lack of) plumbing and electrical skills... probably not.
> The house had partially burned, so I was able to purchase it cheap.
> I've been remodeling it, since then, as a shop. I need help with
> heavy lifting, sometimes. I'm doing a little interior work, at the
> moment, and will be doing more exterior work, soon, as the weather is
> warming up, nicely. I always give a token of appreciation to those
> who give an extra hand in assistance.
>
> On another note, I've discovered the property, as a residence, itself,
> has a higher tax assessed to it than if I would have the property
> enjoined to my home property, creating one larger single residence.
> I've learned this is not hard to get done, in my particular
> circumstance, and a one-time fee of about $800, for surveying and
> legal filing, would result in an overall tax assessment/bill of about
> $500 per year less than I am presently paying. And one doesn't have
> to be an electrician, impressive tool belt or not, to figure that one
> out.
Agreed.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/
The house next door is my "new" (second) shop. I wanted to
discontinued the power from the city source and service the new shop
from my home, via subpanel. I contacted an electrician and described
my plans and asked if he would do the specialty work.
I did all the rough labor and had all other items, needed for job
completion, ready for the electrician. The electrician did all the
connections, after he inspected my labor work. Some of his work
included disconnecting breakers for a few lines of specific use &
tools from the garage & old shop and have those transferred to the new
shop service, The material supplies were maybe $400 to $500 and the
electrician charged me $45. It took him about an hour, we had a nice
chat, and I feel safe and secure with the outcome. I'm certain his
family enjoyed the several jars of home-made blackberry jelly and fig
jam I gave him, also.
Sonny
On Mar 15, 7:43=A0pm, Anon Ymous <[email protected]> wrote:
> Pushmatic breakers? Probably from the 50's or 60's. FWIW, my electrician
> friend who likes to go overboard on everything says they are a fire
> waiting to happen. I'd go with a new, upgraded breaker panel with a
> sub-panel in the shop. Then you can go out and buy some BIG tools!
Replacing the main breaker box at this time isn't an option, unless I
want to skip getting a new saw, then there is no point to this little
exercise! (well, except for having a new, possibly safer main breaker
box)
At this point I'm really leaning towards putting a sub-panel in the
shop. I want to relocate the wire running to the dryer out to the shop
and use it as the feeder cable. The new sub panel would have a 50 amp
breaker for a main disconnect, a 30 amp breaker feeding new wire run
to the dryer, a 20 amp breaker feeding new wire to run the table saw,
and possibly a few 110v circuits for various outlets throughout the
shop. Any major problems with this plan? I've looked at the cable that
currently feeds the dryer, it is about 3/4" thick, round, grey and not
labeled - how best to identify it for sure? Would this plan require
any changes inside the main breaker box?
Just as a disclaimer, I would have everything checked out with an
electrician and so on, at this point I'm just trying to determine if
this plan is feasible so I have a rough idea of the cost.
"Mike" wrote
> So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
> run it out to the shop?
Probably not "branch off" ... the dyer is most likely on a dedicated
circuit, depending upon the requirements of your city code/NEC, but there is
nothing to stop you from unplugging the dryer and plugging in the saw,
providing you have the right plug for the saw.
> Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp 220v circuit?
Absolutely... as long as the motor is wired for 220/240v operation.
The 50A circuit breaker is there for the sole protection of the insulation
on the wiring of the branch circuit, and not for the saw's protection. The
saw should have it's own internal thermal protection.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:MQbvl.274$6%[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at
>> the outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet
>> saw, stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is
>> running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife
>> entered into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will
>> run on the same circuit.
>
> Knock, knock, knock... "THIS IS THE OUTLET POLICE, OPEN UP." ;-)
Yeah I know, but I "think" a home owner can do what he wants, although he
will probably have to make it right if he plans on selling the house. If I
move I simply plan to remove the extra outlet.
"Jim Weisgram" wrote:
> I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a
> subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back
> in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel.
Lowest cost solution is to install a 125 MLO(Main lug only) 12/24
(12-1" or 24-1/2") panel with a 2P-60A main CB kit, a 2P-50A branch
breaker for the dryer and a 2P-30A breaker for the T/S.
Feed the new sub panel from the existing 2P-50A branch
breaker(existing dryer circuit) and move the dryer wiring to the sub
panel.
Buy what ever brand of equipment that is popular in your area.
A 12/24 panel will provide all the shop capacity you will need for a
typical home shop including an additional 2P-50A for a 5HP air
compressor if you need one.
The above based on many years in the electrical business designing
electrical distribution systems and selling the above equipment.
YMMV.
Lew
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:244870ba-c0e7-4b1c-a8cd-e461b55b4dd9@j38g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
> 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
> saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
> the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
> has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
> adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
> wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.
>
> There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
> 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
> circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
> circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
> dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
> find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
> really pull?
>
> So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
> run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
> 220v circuit?
Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at the
outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet saw,
stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is
running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife entered
into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will run on the
same circuit.
Be certain to run the proper gauge wire. You can run your 220 volt saw on a
200 amp circuit if you want. A decent saw should have it's won over load
protection built in. The circuit breaker regardless of rating is strictly
intended to protect the wiring in your house.
"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Stom imagining a perfect world. It doesn't exist. If you want
> something done right you're better of doing it yourself, if at all
> possible. Electrical work is simple (work, but simple). Wiring a
> 200V circuit for a saw is usually simple. A sub-panel is simple.
> Sure, it takes time and some amount of work.
The context, if you'll recall, is the OP asking advice on wiring the shop
from an existing dryer breaker. I'll grant you that it's all simple, and
thus hardly worth your chest thumping. At the same time, you have to
recognize that there's quite a bit of knowledge missing between the advice
he'll find here in a woodworking newsgroup, and what he needs to know to
finish the job safely. Doesn't it frighten you just the slightest to see the
studious looks on the homeowners' faces as they pick through the electrical
parts bins in the big box store, puzzling through how the things work and
how to put it together? It's like watching a drunk leave the bar and get in
his car to drive home. You just know it's an accident waiting to happen.
On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:52:39 -0400, Mike Marlow
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:49:14 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
>wisdom...:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
>>>wisdom...:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
>>>> inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
>>>> much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
>>>> theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
>>>> any lack of knowledge.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a
>>>licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull.
>>
>> No it really isn't. Residential electrical work is quite simple.
>> "Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. My previous
>> house was a perfect example.
>
>Agreed that residential wiring is quite simple, but I think I'm responding
>more to the implied notion that most electricians don't or can't do the job
>properly.
Don't. They all likely can, but are under too much pressure to get it
done quickly (cheaply).
>I also agree that some sub contractors will cut corners, but
>often that is defined more by the way owners wish things were done, than by
>any real deficency in complying with code.
"Forgetting" wiring boxes is a real deficiency. Channeling sheetrock
behind fixtures across studs is a deficiency. Directly wiring light
fixtures (no box) is a deficiency, whether it's indoors or outdoors.
Wiring the red wire to neutral in an entrance panel is a real
deficiency. Bonding neutral and ground in a sub-panel is a real
deficiency. Reversing *every* hot and neutral out of this sub-panel
(in the outlet box) is a real deficiency. Yes, I've corrected them
all, and more, done by "professional" electricians.
>If your house is a perfect
>example, then your local inspector is as much to blame as any electrician.
An inspector can't inspect every connection and every outlet. He
can't afford to, for his $25.
>If it's done by code, then it's done right.
"done by code" <> "inspected to code" <>
Obviously, the above wasn't "done by code", but it passed inspection.
> Maybe not the way you would do
>it yourself, but that does not justify denegrading the work of another.
It wasn't a matter of not being done the way I would do it. It was
damned dangerous (my MIL was getting shocked off the drier because its
case was wired to 120V).
>>> Over building
>>>has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is
>>>better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.
>>
>> It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials
>> ("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. Using the best materials
>> because the difference isn't significant does matter. All many
>> "professionals" care about is cost and time.
>
>Skimping on materials is a subjective statement when it stands all by
>itself.
"Forgetting" boxes (stated in the paragraph you quoted) is not
"subjective".
>Did it pass code inspection?
Do you *really* believe an inspection will catch all faults?
Electricins know *exactly* what they can get away with. I've had them
tell me how to get the inspector to ignore what I want them to. How
do you think they know how to do that?
>If so, then unless you have a
>crooked inspector, it seems hard to imagine skimping on materials.
Stom imagining a perfect world. It doesn't exist. If you want
something done right you're better of doing it yourself, if at all
possible. Electrical work is simple (work, but simple). Wiring a
200V circuit for a saw is usually simple. A sub-panel is simple.
Sure, it takes time and some amount of work.
> What
>does using the best materials mean? It could mean a lot, but it could also
>be very subjective. Can't tell from the limited information.
$2 outlets, rather than $.29 outlets, for instance. Copper wire,
rather than aluminum. A generous number of breakers. Splitting loads
across circuits. Some of that is subjective, some not. The point is
that you can always do the subjective better than a "professional"
(the point of the threadlet) and even the objective better than they
often do.
>Happens to hit a pet peeve of mine - broad brush statements (especially
>those that denegrade others) that all too often are based on preferences
>rather than factual, objective critique.
I stated a few of the issues in my first article. Seems you have a
twitchy knee. Electrician?
>Many times homeowners feel overkill is factually better because it builds
>in some protections, or affords greater flexibilities. Many times this
>belief is based on a limited knowledge they have of the particular task.
>While this can instill a certain confidence in the homeowner, it does not
>mean that other ways are somehow less adequate.
There isn't a lot of knowledge needed to do residential wiring. There
are some tricks but they're generally time-savers; less important for
most homeowners. There is no reason a homeowner can't to a far better
job than the average "professional". There is no reason he can't do
it better than *any* "professional". It certainly will take more
time, though no more money, and he'll get what he wants.
On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:09:21 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:
>
> "Forgetting" wiring boxes is a real deficiency. Channeling sheetrock
> behind fixtures across studs is a deficiency. Directly wiring light
> fixtures (no box) is a deficiency, whether it's indoors or outdoors.
> Wiring the red wire to neutral in an entrance panel is a real
> deficiency. Bonding neutral and ground in a sub-panel is a real
> deficiency. Reversing *every* hot and neutral out of this sub-panel
> (in the outlet box) is a real deficiency. Yes, I've corrected them
> all, and more, done by "professional" electricians.
You've outlined an impressive list of problems but that in no way
represents the trade. Not to mention that I've seen worse done by
homeowners.
>
> An inspector can't inspect every connection and every outlet. He
> can't afford to, for his $25.
Everything you mentioned above damned sure should have been caught by an
inspector. I don't know how they inspect where you live but those would
never have passed around here.
>
>>If it's done by code, then it's done right.
>
> "done by code" <> "inspected to code" <>
>
> Obviously, the above wasn't "done by code", but it passed inspection.
No - it was pencil whipped.
>
> "Forgetting" boxes (stated in the paragraph you quoted) is not
> "subjective".
Nor is the list you posted common.
>
>>Did it pass code inspection?
>
> Do you *really* believe an inspection will catch all faults?
> Electricins know *exactly* what they can get away with. I've had them
> tell me how to get the inspector to ignore what I want them to. How
> do you think they know how to do that?
I sure as hell do believe an inspector will find those problems. I've had
tons of inspections and have a pretty good idea what inspectors around here
look at.
>
> Stom imagining a perfect world. It doesn't exist. If you want
> something done right you're better of doing it yourself, if at all
> possible. Electrical work is simple (work, but simple). Wiring a
> 200V circuit for a saw is usually simple. A sub-panel is simple.
> Sure, it takes time and some amount of work.
No perfect world - the real world.
>
> $2 outlets, rather than $.29 outlets, for instance. Copper wire,
> rather than aluminum. A generous number of breakers. Splitting loads
> across circuits. Some of that is subjective, some not. The point is
> that you can always do the subjective better than a "professional"
> (the point of the threadlet) and even the objective better than they
> often do.
I can accept your statement about the outlets but your statement about the
aluminum wire, coupled with your other finds, is making this very hard to
believe. Your inspector passed aluminum wiring?
>
>>Happens to hit a pet peeve of mine - broad brush statements (especially
>>those that denegrade others) that all too often are based on preferences
>>rather than factual, objective critique.
>
> I stated a few of the issues in my first article. Seems you have a
> twitchy knee. Electrician?
Nope. But, I have done a bunch of wiring on the side.
>
>>Many times homeowners feel overkill is factually better because it builds
>>in some protections, or affords greater flexibilities. Many times this
>>belief is based on a limited knowledge they have of the particular task.
>>While this can instill a certain confidence in the homeowner, it does not
>>mean that other ways are somehow less adequate.
>
> There isn't a lot of knowledge needed to do residential wiring. There
> are some tricks but they're generally time-savers; less important for
> most homeowners. There is no reason a homeowner can't to a far better
> job than the average "professional". There is no reason he can't do
> it better than *any* "professional". It certainly will take more
> time, though no more money, and he'll get what he wants.
I agree that a homeowner can easily do the job. Better than the
professional? Don't know why you'd feel that way. I've never seen any
professional work that compares to your claims. I can agree that the
homeowner can do as well, but the better part is a hard swallow.
You've quoted a list of very extreme findings and frankly, they're hard to
believe. Unless you're saying you came across these things individually
over a period of time, that is. I'm not even sure a "professional" was at
fault here. These really sound more like the handiwork of a
self-proclaimed electrician, or a homeowner.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:MQbvl.274$6%[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
>
>>
>> Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at
>> the outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet
>> saw, stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is
>> running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife
>> entered into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will
>> run on the same circuit.
>
> Knock, knock, knock... "THIS IS THE OUTLET POLICE, OPEN UP." ;-)
That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things,
the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might
escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. You have
to ask yourself if it's a good law. If it is, you should consider the wisdom
of circumventing it for whatever your reasons. If it isn't, you should work
toward having it revoked or revised so it becomes reasonable.
Leon wrote:
>
> Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at the
> outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet saw,
> stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is
> running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife entered
> into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will run on the
> same circuit.
Knock, knock, knock... "THIS IS THE OUTLET POLICE, OPEN UP." ;-)
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such
>> things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets
>> code. It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a
>> claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant
>> condition was causative.
>
> What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in
> case they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd
> probably start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring
> easily.
> As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it
> has to be related.
Put a sign over the outlets: "Dryer 1" and "Dryer 2."
"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Douglas Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't
> help but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would
> take the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own
> stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness.
>
>
Take heart that the comparison is not really a fair one. Most home owners
doing their own wiring are not knowing throwing caution to the wind.
Now if you knew that what you were doing was going to cause problems, that
would be a different matter.
MikeWhy wrote:
>
> You don't say. We talk about honesty here, and pride ourselves in the
> little things, some of them largely inconsequential. Is it a good law,
> to require a building permit, licensed electricians, and followup
> inspection? Who gets to decide? Everyone for themselves?
>
I agree that requiring an inspection is a good law. The permit is
required as the fee pays for the inspection. In my area a licensed
electrician is not required for a single residence when the homeowner
does the work.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
[email protected]
"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such
>> things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code.
>> It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the
>> insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was
>> causative.
>
> What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case
> they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably
> start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily.
You don't say. We talk about honesty here, and pride ourselves in the little
things, some of them largely inconsequential. Is it a good law, to require a
building permit, licensed electricians, and followup inspection? Who gets to
decide? Everyone for themselves?
> As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has
> to be related.
Were we talking about keeping the bushes trimmed, or were we talking about
the electrical work in the home?
"Ed Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such
>> things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code.
>> It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the
>> insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was
>> causative.
>
> What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case
> they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably
> start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily.
>
> As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has
> to be related.
From what I understand, if the wiring was the cause and you personally did
the wiring the insurance co. still has to pay up. This would not be the
case however if they found that you intentionally make the wiring
modification to burn your house down.
Similar to car insurance, if you run a red light cause a wreck and get
ticketed they still repair your car.
IIRC that is how my agent explained it to me when I told him that I added an
outlet during a reevaluation of my coverage. They are only concerned about
major wiring changes to the breaker box. They want to insure that there are
no unprotected circuits.
"Douglas Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
>>company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative.
>
> This myth persists. I've been over my Texas Homeowners policy and can
> find
> nothing in it that would let the insurance company deny such a claim,
> except a
> finding that I modified the wiring to deliberately burn the house down.
> Stupid
> doesn't count.
>
> I've talked to two claims adjusters on the subject. Neither one hesitated
> before saying "They'd pay".
>
> If someone has better information, I'd love to hear it.
I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't help
but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would take
the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own
stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness.
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:
>
> Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
> inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
> much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
> theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
> any lack of knowledge.
>
>
Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a
licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull. Over building
has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is
better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Mar 15, 9:09=A0am, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
> 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
> saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
> the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
> has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full
The building trades are available, why not ask an electrician?
Probably, if you dislike the 'old style' breakers, a new breaker
box (or even an upgraded service) would be an option to consider.
It doesn't take a full work day to replace an existing box, just
some prudence and skills, and a licensed electrician can get
your situation sorted relatively easily. Building permit
required, usually.
On Mar 15, 12:09=A0pm, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
> 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
> saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
> the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
> has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
> adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
> wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.
>
> There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
> 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
> circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
> circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
> dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
> find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
> really pull?
>
> So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
> run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
> 220v circuit?
Update: I went and looked at the label on the back of the dryer - it
says that it should be hooked up to a maximum 30 amp circuit. Maybe I
should look into installing a small sub-panel in the garage, then run
a 20 amp circuit for the table saw, and a 30 amp circuit for the
dryer.
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
>wisdom...:
>
>
>>
>> Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
>> inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
>> much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
>> theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
>> any lack of knowledge.
>>
>>
>
>Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a
>licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull.
No it really isn't. Residential electrical work is quite simple.
"Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. My previous
house was a perfect example.
> Over building
>has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is
>better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.
It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials
("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. Using the best materials
because the difference isn't significant does matter. All many
"professionals" care about is cost and time.
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 07:55:11 -0500, "Leon"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> "Douglas Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>
>> I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't
>> help but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would
>> take the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own
>> stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness.
>>
>>
>
>Take heart that the comparison is not really a fair one. Most home owners
>doing their own wiring are not knowing throwing caution to the wind.
Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
any lack of knowledge.
>Now if you knew that what you were doing was going to cause problems, that
>would be a different matter.
Right, it would have to be intentional (i.e. arson) for a claim to be
denied.
On Mar 16, 4:39=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Jim Weisgram" wrote:
> > I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a
> > subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back
> > in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel.
>
> Lowest cost solution is to install a 125 MLO(Main lug only) 12/24
> (12-1" or 24-1/2") panel with a 2P-60A main CB kit, a 2P-50A branch
> breaker for the dryer and a 2P-30A breaker for the T/S.
>
> Feed the new sub panel from the existing 2P-50A branch
> breaker(existing dryer circuit) and move the dryer wiring to the sub
> panel.
>
I spent some time looking at the existing dryer line - the dryer plug
is a 3 prong plug, which has 2 hot wires, and one ground - but does
not have a neutral wire. So it doesn't look like I'd be able to use
this line to feed my new sub-panel. An electrician I spoke with at
work told me that this setup is common for large appliances such as
dryers - 2 hot wires, 1 ground and no common.
Now it looks like I will have to pull new wire from the main breaker
box out to the shop - this new line would have 2 hot wires, 1 common
and 1 ground. Does that sound correct? If so, then I would want to
disconnect the existing dryer line from the 50 amp breaker in the main
panel and connect the new line to that breaker.
[email protected] wrote:
> On Mar 15, 12:09 pm, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
>> 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
>> saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
>> the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
>> has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
>> adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
>> wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.
>>
>> There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
>> 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
>> circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
>> circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
>> dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
>> find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
>> really pull?
>>
>> So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
>> run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
>> 220v circuit?
>
> Update: I went and looked at the label on the back of the dryer - it
> says that it should be hooked up to a maximum 30 amp circuit. Maybe I
> should look into installing a small sub-panel in the garage, then run
> a 20 amp circuit for the table saw, and a 30 amp circuit for the
> dryer.
If your main box is maxed out, that's probably a good idea, anyway.
While you're at it, you could upgrade the shop's electric a little.
Who knows when you'll want another 220 tool?
Maybe add some GFCI breakers to the new panel for the shop circuits.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things,
>> the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might
>> escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
>> company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative.
>
> What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case
> they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably
> start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily.
>
> As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has to
> be related.
>
Any wiring I do in my house is a vast improvement on the original, which
in some cases, leads me to believe a previous owner was trying to invoke
an insurance claim or get rid of a divorced spouse.
My work will meet or exceed code, in any case,
especially some of the goofy stuff they require in TN.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 15-Mar-2009, whit3rd <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 15, 9:09 am, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
> > 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
> > saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
> > the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
> > has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full
>
> The building trades are available, why not ask an electrician?
> Probably, if you dislike the 'old style' breakers, a new breaker
> box (or even an upgraded service) would be an option to consider.
>
> It doesn't take a full work day to replace an existing box, just
> some prudence and skills, and a licensed electrician can get
> your situation sorted relatively easily. Building permit
> required, usually.
Back in Nov. I did just that. It cost me about $375 for a new panel,
breakers, plus a 12ft run for my 220v space heater. It took about
half a day. The electrician was happy to get the work and I was
happy to have someone else do it. Now I've got two additional
110 runs and room for 5 (or 2 plus 1) more in my box -- just in case I
want to expand and/or upgrade.
[...snip...]
>
>At this point I'm really leaning towards putting a sub-panel in the
>shop. I want to relocate the wire running to the dryer out to the shop
>and use it as the feeder cable. The new sub panel would have a 50 amp
>breaker for a main disconnect, a 30 amp breaker feeding new wire run
>to the dryer, a 20 amp breaker feeding new wire to run the table saw,
>and possibly a few 110v circuits for various outlets throughout the
>shop. Any major problems with this plan?
>
I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a
subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back
in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel.
In my case I had an electrician replace my old fuse box with a modern
200 amp panel about 15 years back. In my ignorance, I didn't specify
that we should spend a few extra dollars for a panel with plenty of
expansion room.
Since the house is older, I have added a lot of new circuits over the
years, often to reduce the load on the old wiring or to add outside
lights, dedicated circuits for things like the refrigerator, washer,
microwave, etc.
Anyway, I quickly maxed out the panel. When I ripped down my old
garage/utility room and replaced it with a shop worthy space, I got
the biggest Siemens type panel I could (Siemens breakers are widely
available and relatively inexpensive), took that old panel and put it
in the garage as a subpanel. It is nearly full now.
>I've looked at the cable that
>currently feeds the dryer, it is about 3/4" thick, round, grey and not
>labeled - how best to identify it for sure? Would this plan require
>any changes inside the main breaker box?
You could open up the outlet box the dryer plugs into and check out
the wires themselves.
"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> You don't say. We talk about honesty here, and pride ourselves in the
> little things, some of them largely inconsequential. Is it a good law, to
> require a building permit, licensed electricians, and followup inspection?
> Who gets to decide? Everyone for themselves?
The code is written as a safety guide and tries to consider every possible
bad scenario. It is still possible to do certain things safely, but not
according to the code.
I'm in favor of building permits and plans that meet codes, but some are
kind of silly. A friend built a log cabin style house. He has a loft. If
he calls it a bedroom, it is not allowed as it is and changes must be made.
As long as he called it a seating area loft, it was OK'd and CO was issued.
Should a permit be issued and a licensed electrician install a receptacle
and have in inspected? Sure, every town will need to hire a dozen more
inspectors. There are a lot of idiots out there. Some years ago I saw a
basement of a fairly new home being finished. The owner was going to add
some receptacles and was using lamp cord to daisy chain four of them. I
pointed it out to the wife and she was going to have it changed. The
people that need inspection the most are not going to get it.
"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
>company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative.
This myth persists. I've been over my Texas Homeowners policy and can find
nothing in it that would let the insurance company deny such a claim, except a
finding that I modified the wiring to deliberately burn the house down. Stupid
doesn't count.
I've talked to two claims adjusters on the subject. Neither one hesitated
before saying "They'd pay".
If someone has better information, I'd love to hear it.
-- Doug
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT), Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
>110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
>saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
>the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
>has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
>adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
>wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.
>
>There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
>50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
>circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
>circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
>dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
>find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
>really pull?
>
>So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
>run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
>220v circuit?
Run a disconnect. It is a separate switched fuse or breaker box,
connected directly to the main buss. From there you can run an
"expansion panel"
Or remove one of the 220 brekers and replace it with the largest you
can get and wire the "expansion panel" to that breaker, installing a
breaker for the original 220 volt load in that panel.
"Mike" wrote:
>I spent some time looking at the existing dryer line - the dryer plug
is a 3 prong plug, which has 2 hot wires, and one ground - but does
not have a neutral wire.
<snip>
NBD.
The existing main panel will have L1, L2, N & Gnd.
Pull the N & G from the existing pnl.
Pull L1 & L2 from the existing 2P-50 presently used to feed dryer.
You now feed dryer from new sub pnl.
N & G will also come from sub pnl..
Not sure about your area, but usually when you work on something, you
have to bring it up to current code.
Probably means you will need to replace existing dryer receptacle with
a 4 wire unit and replace the dryer plug to match.
Sounds like the dryer is old enough it may not require any 120V
service.
Lew
So it doesn't look like I'd be able to use
this line to feed my new sub-panel. An electrician I spoke with at
work told me that this setup is common for large appliances such as
dryers - 2 hot wires, 1 ground and no common.
Now it looks like I will have to pull new wire from the main breaker
box out to the shop - this new line would have 2 hot wires, 1 common
and 1 ground. Does that sound correct? If so, then I would want to
disconnect the existing dryer line from the 50 amp breaker in the main
panel and connect the new line to that breaker.
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT), Mike <[email protected]> wrote:
>I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
>110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
>saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
>the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
>has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
>adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
>wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.
There are 1/2 width breakers available for most breaker types that allow 2
breakers to reside in the place of one standard breaker. You might be able to
get some breaker space by using the 1/2 size ones in enough breaker positions in
your box to "free up" breaker slots for your additional circuit breakers.
>
>There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
>50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
>circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
>circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
>dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
>find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
>really pull?
>
>So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
>run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
>220v circuit?
"MikeWhy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things,
> the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might
> escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
> company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative.
What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case
they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably
start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily.
As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has to
be related.