We need to replace a bunch of ugly ceiling fixtures in my house. My
wife has been showing me a series of ugly commercial ones from various
lighting catalogs. I'm thinking of building my own from some walnut
I've got. Something like a flat box with wooden sides and a bottom made
of frosted glass supported by some kind of wooden gridwork seems simple
enough to build.
I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
I saw a guys website a while ago, something called "urban forest
craftsman" or somesuch. Anyway, it was really his website about his
ongoing whole house remodeling project. Some of the stuff he did was
to build an arts & crafts style overhead lamp &, some sconces. FWW
has also published a detailed story about an overhead light ala Gamble
House fairly recently.
What you want can be done. While others point out UL listing, what
you want are UL listed components, venting for the heat & space around
the bulbs. In fact this might be the time to consider flourescent
since they run cooler.
My opinion, your mileage may vary. Use my advise at your own risk.
Keeps arms and hands inside car while ride is in motion. Don't run
with sissors.
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:31:39 -0400, Roy Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>We need to replace a bunch of ugly ceiling fixtures in my house. My
>wife has been showing me a series of ugly commercial ones from various
>lighting catalogs. I'm thinking of building my own from some walnut
>I've got. Something like a flat box with wooden sides and a bottom made
>of frosted glass supported by some kind of wooden gridwork seems simple
>enough to build.
>
>I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
>heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
>before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
>building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
If fluorescent units shim transformers away from the fixture box for
heat escape.
On 19 Sep 2004 17:26:02 GMT, [email protected] (Greg) wrote:
>Bear in mind these really should be U/L tested so you are taking on some
>responsibility not to burn down your house. Be sure you open them up after they
>have run a while and check for heat damage and heat buildup. Don't dump the
>heat in the ceiling box.
If you do make fixtures out of wood I would suggest that the area directly
adjacent to the bulbs be skinned with aluminum flashing material. It will
reflect the heat away from the wood and also get more light into the room for a
given bulb size. If you drill a few holes in the top and some vent near the
bottom they will breathe and lower the heat buildup. Part of a good design is
planning the air flow.
Bear in mind these really should be U/L tested so you are taking on some
responsibility not to burn down your house. Be sure you open them up after they
have run a while and check for heat damage and heat buildup. Don't dump the
heat in the ceiling box.
>I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
>heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
>before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
>building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
I had these in my lake house until I installed ceiling fans. Each had
4 - 60 watt bulbs and we never had a problem. It seems like they had a
little "wave" at the top where heat could escape but I'm not positive.
I still have them there in storage and should be back up there in a
few weeks - be glad to take a look at them and let you know. Also, the
frosted lens was held by a nut on the bottom of the 4 bulb light
fixture - no grid necessary.
Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:50:38 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
>
>>Don't worry about it. 200W isn't going to come close to burning up any
>>wood. By the time you build the fixture big enough to be useful as a
>>light
>>you'll have more than enough room in it. You could stick those 100W light
>>bulbs right on top of a piece of pine (let alone walnut) and the light
>>bulb will burn out before it starts the wood on fire.
>
> Please stop being a danger to yourself and others, Mike.
> Besides, someone who did that and burned up their house
> could send their insurance company after you from what
> you just wrote. You encouraged Darwinism, sir. ;)
Oh, please. You must live in complete fear that the boogy man is going to
get you. Please provide the case history of an insurance company "going
after" an individual for casual advice.
>
> Wood and paper can catch fire at 451°.
Wood and paper? Damn, I've been using paper to start my wood stove fires
for nothing? You mean I could have just put that match under a scrap of 2x4
and started the fire without wasting all that paper?
>
> If you were to go
> into your garage and put a lamp with bare 100w bulb in
> the center and lay a piece of paper over it, it would
> probably catch fire in under half an hour. I have melted
> plastic shades and scorched paper shades without the
> bulbs touching them. Incandescent light is HOT so I don't
> recommend trying this.
If you were to have read what I wrote before you launched into your little
diatribe Larry, you'd have noticed a couple of things. For one, I never
suggested putting a piece of paper on a light bulb. Your point is totally
pointless. Really - hit me up when I say something wrong, but geeze, at
least stick with the thought at hand.
>
> The warnings on fixtures to keep specific wattage to a
> minimum is well warranted. It not only keeps paper shades
> from burning, it keeps heat from building up and melting
> the wiring which could also cause a fire.
Ummmmmm.... and this has exactly *what* to do with what's being discussed?
I made no mention of wiring or devices that the OP might use in his light.
>
> That said, a simple vent in the top of most lighting fixtures
> would ensure that the heat didn't build up.
>
>
Ah.... the second point you so conveniently forgot to read in my post. Go
back and read it again Larry, it's right at the top of this page. Next time
please don't be so hell bent to simply post some sort of insult. Read
what's written and respond to that, not to what you may want it to have
said.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Larry Jaques wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:50:38 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
> >
> >>Don't worry about it. 200W isn't going to come close to burning up any
> >>wood. By the time you build the fixture big enough to be useful as a
> >>light
> >>you'll have more than enough room in it. You could stick those 100W
light
> >>bulbs right on top of a piece of pine (let alone walnut) and the light
> >>bulb will burn out before it starts the wood on fire.
> >
> > Please stop being a danger to yourself and others, Mike.
> > Besides, someone who did that and burned up their house
> > could send their insurance company after you from what
> > you just wrote. You encouraged Darwinism, sir. ;)
>
> Oh, please. You must live in complete fear that the boogy man is going to
> get you. Please provide the case history of an insurance company "going
> after" an individual for casual advice.
>
> >
> > Wood and paper can catch fire at 451°.
>
> Wood and paper? Damn, I've been using paper to start my wood stove fires
> for nothing? You mean I could have just put that match under a scrap of
2x4
> and started the fire without wasting all that paper?
Think I'll take a second shot at this and do a little more justice to the
grossly incorrect statement made above. Wood does not catch fire at 451
degrees. At around 451 degrees, it will begin to convert its volatiles. At
somewhere around 1000 degrees, though it can be as low as around 750 degrees
or as high as nearly 1300 degrees, wood will ignite. That's far hotter than
any 100w light bulb is going to get it, no matter how long it's left on the
wood.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
RE: Subject
Why waste time with incandesant lamps with are basically 18 lumen/watt
devices.
Consider using the self ballasted flourscent replacement lamps that provide
about 60 lumens/watt.
Translation:
3 times the light output for the same amount of waste heat.
Yes, it will cost a few more $'s for the lamps, but if that is a ball
buster, why even think about the project?
Lew
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> If fluorescent units shim transformers away from the fixture box for
> heat escape.
>
> On 19 Sep 2004 17:26:02 GMT, [email protected] (Greg) wrote:
>
> >Bear in mind these really should be U/L tested so you are taking on some
> >responsibility not to burn down your house. Be sure you open them up after they
> >have run a while and check for heat damage and heat buildup. Don't dump the
> >heat in the ceiling box.
Been there-- etc.
Made two wooden fixture covers. Ceiling type for the same reasons you
are thinking of doing it. They are about 10 x 10 x 4". I glued 1/2 x
1/2 "feet" where the fixture would intersect with the ceiling so air
would flow through & out of the fixture cover. Simple boxes with
stained glass (copper foil method) on the bottom. So it was easy to
use a standard electrical fixture that normally would hold a square or
round glass ceiling shade & make the hole for the 'hold up bolt' Have
had no problem with scorching/burning or heat cracking the sheetrock
inside the fixture cover. They have been in place for about 10 years.
I did orient the bulbs so they were pointed at the corners of the
fixtures. Yours could be larger & deeper to accomidate larger bulbs. I
made them of 1/2 oak & all sides were pierced wood with a sunray motif
(lots of open space for ventilation). I have 2- 60w bulbs in each.
If you try the same approach, make sure the glass is not dark-- ties
up too many lumens. Good luck
On Fri, 24 Sep 2004 01:16:38 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>
>"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> >
>> > Wood and paper can catch fire at 451°.
>>
>> Wood and paper? Damn, I've been using paper to start my wood stove fires
>> for nothing? You mean I could have just put that match under a scrap of
>2x4
>> and started the fire without wasting all that paper?
It'll start quicker with the match, but if you're vewwy,
vewwy patient...
>Think I'll take a second shot at this and do a little more justice to the
>grossly incorrect statement made above. Wood does not catch fire at 451
>degrees. At around 451 degrees, it will begin to convert its volatiles. At
>somewhere around 1000 degrees, though it can be as low as around 750 degrees
>or as high as nearly 1300 degrees, wood will ignite. That's far hotter than
>any 100w light bulb is going to get it, no matter how long it's left on the
>wood.
Volatiles begin release with the water vapor at 212F, boiling point
of water. Paper catches fire at 451F. Volatiles catch fire earlier
than wood and catch the wood on fire. A well-ventilated 150w bulb
runs at about 370F (the only actual running temp I could find right
now, other than halogens at 970-1200F) but higher if not ventilated.
Perhaps it won't catch fire, but I wouldn't want to tempt fate.
If he had a paper shade, following your suggestion -could-
(not would) have caused a fire. If he simply put a couple 100w
bulbs against a pine board he'd definitely have smoke and a
stench if not a fire. What would his wife say then? I believe
it is a very bad idea and stand by my humorous (perhaps not
to you) remarks to you. The comment you made was ill-advised.
If you still disagree, make the comment to a fireman or the
local arson investigator. If you think _I_ insulted you, wait
'til the investigator gets done with you. ;)
--------------------------------------------------------
Murphy was an Optimist
----------------------------
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development
Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:50:38 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
> <[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>
>>
>>"Roy Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> We need to replace a bunch of ugly ceiling fixtures in my house. My
>>> wife has been showing me a series of ugly commercial ones from various
>>> lighting catalogs. I'm thinking of building my own from some walnut
>>> I've got. Something like a flat box with wooden sides and a bottom made
>>> of frosted glass supported by some kind of wooden gridwork seems simple
>>> enough to build.
>>>
>>> I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
>>> heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
>>> before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
>>> building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
>
> Keep a few inches of clearance and provide a vent and you should
> be alright. Many of the old lamps were wood. My favorite was the
> Gamble House chandelier:
> http://www.citycent.com/CCC/Pasadena/gambfrnd.htm#tour
>
> close-up reproduction:
>
http://www.historiclighting.com/RetailScience/zoom/lighting/chandeliers/cloud8-00.html/2351/1
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3ovc6 has one book on the subject. <thud>
>
>
>>Don't worry about it. 200W isn't going to come close to burning up any
>>wood. By the time you build the fixture big enough to be useful as a
>>light
>>you'll have more than enough room in it. You could stick those 100W light
>>bulbs right on top of a piece of pine (let alone walnut) and the light
>>bulb will burn out before it starts the wood on fire.
>
> Please stop being a danger to yourself and others, Mike.
> Besides, someone who did that and burned up their house
> could send their insurance company after you from what
> you just wrote. You encouraged Darwinism, sir. ;)
>
> Wood and paper can catch fire at 451°.
Depends on the wood. Some exotics have the same fire rating as concrete.
> If you were to go
> into your garage and put a lamp with bare 100w bulb in
> the center and lay a piece of paper over it, it would
> probably catch fire in under half an hour. I have melted
> plastic shades and scorched paper shades without the
> bulbs touching them. Incandescent light is HOT so I don't
> recommend trying this.
>
> The warnings on fixtures to keep specific wattage to a
> minimum is well warranted. It not only keeps paper shades
> from burning, it keeps heat from building up and melting
> the wiring which could also cause a fire.
>
> That said, a simple vent in the top of most lighting fixtures
> would ensure that the heat didn't build up.
>
>
> - Metaphors Be With You -
> http://diversify.com Web Application Programming
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Mike Marlow wrote:
>
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Larry Jaques wrote:
>> >
>> > > On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:50:38 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
>> >
>> >>Don't worry about it. 200W isn't going to come close to burning up any
>> >>wood. By the time you build the fixture big enough to be useful as a
>> >>light
>> >>you'll have more than enough room in it. You could stick those 100W
> light
>> >>bulbs right on top of a piece of pine (let alone walnut) and the light
>> >>bulb will burn out before it starts the wood on fire.
>> >
>> > Please stop being a danger to yourself and others, Mike.
>> > Besides, someone who did that and burned up their house
>> > could send their insurance company after you from what
>> > you just wrote. You encouraged Darwinism, sir. ;)
>>
>> Oh, please. You must live in complete fear that the boogy man is going
>> to
>> get you. Please provide the case history of an insurance company "going
>> after" an individual for casual advice.
>>
>> >
>> > Wood and paper can catch fire at 451°.
>>
>> Wood and paper? Damn, I've been using paper to start my wood stove fires
>> for nothing? You mean I could have just put that match under a scrap of
> 2x4
>> and started the fire without wasting all that paper?
>
> Think I'll take a second shot at this and do a little more justice to the
> grossly incorrect statement made above. Wood does not catch fire at 451
> degrees. At around 451 degrees, it will begin to convert its volatiles.
> At somewhere around 1000 degrees, though it can be as low as around 750
> degrees
> or as high as nearly 1300 degrees, wood will ignite. That's far hotter
> than any 100w light bulb is going to get it, no matter how long it's left
> on the wood.
The moral of this is "don't get your technical information from Ray
Bradbury".
>
>
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
In article <[email protected]>, Roy Smith
<[email protected]> wrote:
You need to make a choice between incandescent lights of fluorescent
lights. The fluorescent lights are far more efficient. There are
either tubular forms or screw-in forms. The added efficiency means that
you get more light with less heat.
Dick
> We need to replace a bunch of ugly ceiling fixtures in my house. My
> wife has been showing me a series of ugly commercial ones from various
> lighting catalogs. I'm thinking of building my own from some walnut
> I've got. Something like a flat box with wooden sides and a bottom made
> of frosted glass supported by some kind of wooden gridwork seems simple
> enough to build.
>
> I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
> heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
> before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
> building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
On Sun, 19 Sep 2004 16:50:38 GMT, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:
>
>"Roy Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> We need to replace a bunch of ugly ceiling fixtures in my house. My
>> wife has been showing me a series of ugly commercial ones from various
>> lighting catalogs. I'm thinking of building my own from some walnut
>> I've got. Something like a flat box with wooden sides and a bottom made
>> of frosted glass supported by some kind of wooden gridwork seems simple
>> enough to build.
>>
>> I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
>> heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
>> before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
>> building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
Keep a few inches of clearance and provide a vent and you should
be alright. Many of the old lamps were wood. My favorite was the
Gamble House chandelier:
http://www.citycent.com/CCC/Pasadena/gambfrnd.htm#tour
close-up reproduction:
http://www.historiclighting.com/RetailScience/zoom/lighting/chandeliers/cloud8-00.html/2351/1
http://tinyurl.com/3ovc6 has one book on the subject. <thud>
>Don't worry about it. 200W isn't going to come close to burning up any
>wood. By the time you build the fixture big enough to be useful as a light
>you'll have more than enough room in it. You could stick those 100W light
>bulbs right on top of a piece of pine (let alone walnut) and the light bulb
>will burn out before it starts the wood on fire.
Please stop being a danger to yourself and others, Mike.
Besides, someone who did that and burned up their house
could send their insurance company after you from what
you just wrote. You encouraged Darwinism, sir. ;)
Wood and paper can catch fire at 451°. If you were to go
into your garage and put a lamp with bare 100w bulb in
the center and lay a piece of paper over it, it would
probably catch fire in under half an hour. I have melted
plastic shades and scorched paper shades without the
bulbs touching them. Incandescent light is HOT so I don't
recommend trying this.
The warnings on fixtures to keep specific wattage to a
minimum is well warranted. It not only keeps paper shades
from burning, it keeps heat from building up and melting
the wiring which could also cause a fire.
That said, a simple vent in the top of most lighting fixtures
would ensure that the heat didn't build up.
- Metaphors Be With You -
http://diversify.com Web Application Programming
For some design ideas, if you like Asian styles.
http://www.cherrytreedesigns.com/lighting.phtml
Roy Smith wrote:
> We need to replace a bunch of ugly ceiling fixtures in my house. My
> wife has been showing me a series of ugly commercial ones from various
> lighting catalogs. I'm thinking of building my own from some walnut
> I've got. Something like a flat box with wooden sides and a bottom made
> of frosted glass supported by some kind of wooden gridwork seems simple
> enough to build.
>
> I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
> heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
> before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
> building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
Richard Cline wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Roy Smith
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> You need to make a choice between incandescent lights of fluorescent
> lights. The fluorescent lights are far more efficient. There are
> either tubular forms or screw-in forms. The added efficiency means that
> you get more light with less heat.
>
> Dick
>
>
>
>>We need to replace a bunch of ugly ceiling fixtures in my house. My
>>wife has been showing me a series of ugly commercial ones from various
>>lighting catalogs. I'm thinking of building my own from some walnut
>>I've got. Something like a flat box with wooden sides and a bottom made
>>of frosted glass supported by some kind of wooden gridwork seems simple
>>enough to build.
>>
>>I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
>>heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
>>before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
>>building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
If you are planning on using stained and/or fumed glass, I recomend you
evaluate samples of the glass you would use against the proposed light
source to make sure the color you want on the panels meets your
expectation. I cannot think of nothing more hideous than a fluorescent
bulb illuminating a fumed yellow glass.
[email protected] wrote:
> If fluorescent units shim transformers away from the fixture box for
> heat escape.
>
> On 19 Sep 2004 17:26:02 GMT, [email protected] (Greg) wrote:
>
>
>>Bear in mind these really should be U/L tested so you are taking on some
>>responsibility not to burn down your house. Be sure you open them up after they
>>have run a while and check for heat damage and heat buildup. Don't dump the
>>heat in the ceiling box.
>
>
The use of transformers in a wooden lighting fixture brings in a whole
new risk of hazard. Ask yourself how many transformers have you seen
fail (and start fires) and then consider if using a transformer *in* a
wooden fixture may not be a ticking time bomb. Would you want your
fixture to be the cause of a fire 50 years from now when the new owner
is completely incognizant that a transformer failure could be a serious
fire hazard?
Even the Peter Hall Shop (Greene & Greene's artisans) used metal conduit
within their fixtures as an added layer of protection when running an
insulated paired strand of 115v lines to the socket. (I've seen the
wire used in the fixtures built in 1908 degrade to the point of the
insulation crumbling leaving exposed wires.)
I think you can consider that transformers have a very limited life, and
if the risk of insulation degrading within the coil such that a short is
produced is probable, then you really do have an eventual fire hazard.
Granted for the next 20 years everything may be fine, but after that? --
I sure would not want that on my conscience.
Introducing electrical components into a wooden environment is risky
business and the design should be such that future owners can appreciate
and assess/monitor the hazards (failing components) introduced by the
electrical components.
If you must use transformers, design them so they are not hidden and if
they fail, they cannot do anything until the circuit breakers trip.
In article <[email protected]>, Roy Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>We need to replace a bunch of ugly ceiling fixtures in my house. My
>wife has been showing me a series of ugly commercial ones from various
>lighting catalogs. I'm thinking of building my own from some walnut
>I've got. Something like a flat box with wooden sides and a bottom made
>of frosted glass supported by some kind of wooden gridwork seems simple
>enough to build.
>
>I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
>heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
>before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
>building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
Build whatever you want, put compact fluorescent bulbs in it, and don't worry
about the heat. CF bulbs with light output equivalent to 200W of incandescent
bulbs emit less than 50 watts.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
"Roy Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> We need to replace a bunch of ugly ceiling fixtures in my house. My
> wife has been showing me a series of ugly commercial ones from various
> lighting catalogs. I'm thinking of building my own from some walnut
> I've got. Something like a flat box with wooden sides and a bottom made
> of frosted glass supported by some kind of wooden gridwork seems simple
> enough to build.
>
> I'm mostly worried about heat. I need to get rid of, say, 200 Watts of
> heat without the wood parts burning up. Anybody done anything like this
> before and have advice to share? Am I just out of my mind to think of
> building lighting fixtures out of a combustible material?
Don't worry about it. 200W isn't going to come close to burning up any
wood. By the time you build the fixture big enough to be useful as a light
you'll have more than enough room in it. You could stick those 100W light
bulbs right on top of a piece of pine (let alone walnut) and the light bulb
will burn out before it starts the wood on fire.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]