I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
This is what the stub tenon looks like:
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
On 1/29/2015 2:33 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/28/2015 2:53 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>> "DerbyDad03" wrote:
>>
>>> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question
>>> now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality,
>>> or something in between?
>> -----------------------------------------------------
>> The old adage applies.
>>
>> There is no such thing as a cheap tool.
>>
>> There is the quality tool you buy once and move on to other tasks.
>>
>> There is the low inital cost tool that doesn't quite do the job and
>> you
>> replace it with another low inital cost tool in hopes of solving the
>> quality issue. Sooner or later you buy the quality tool.
>>
>> I bought the SD508 and yes it HURT at the time; however, knowing that
>> everytime I reach for the SD-508, it's going to do the job makes the
>> HURT go away a little faster.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> Lew
>>
>>
> Precicely!
>
> A tool that gives you repeated good results and calls for you to use it
> time and again is a great tool and you will seldom remember the sting of
> the price.
Going a bit further with that...
Almost two years ago I bought an industrial SawStop and can probably
only tell you withing $1000 how much I paid for it. This pretty much
holds true with all of my Festool tools.
Way over 15 years ago I bought a PC Detail Sander. WHAT A POS. Off the
top of my head I think I paid $129 for it. Looking that up for certain,
I paid $128.22 on 9/20/1996.
If you focus too much on what you pay for a tool you loose sight on what
you are trying to accomplish.
On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 10:36:20 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 1/27/2015 9:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
> >
> > I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
> >
> > http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>
>
> That is the result you get with a wobble dado set. Yes even with two
> blades you get a rounded bottom.
>
> You either need "good dado set" or cut them as I mentioned earlier with
> a straight bit in the router table.
Yeah, I'm still wobbling (pun intended) between dropping the bucks for a good dado blade or buying the less expensive T&G bit set from MLCS. I guess a dado blade would be the better investment i.e. more options for future use.
>
> >
> > This is what the stub tenon looks like:
> >
> > http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
> >
> > I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
>
> Sand paper wrapped around a block of wood and elbow grease. And you are
> going to need to cut them equal in length on both sides or the joint
> will not close.
Yes, the picture I posted was not of the best (of the bad) tenons that I cut. Things got better as I moved along. It's a good thing I've got lots of scraps from the drawer cutoffs. ;-)
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150128_073101_zps18fb3cf8.jpg
On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 8:24:48 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
> ...is a blade that only cuts one width well worth
> having? While a 3/4" setting seems like a common size to cut, in the
> real world it only works well for cutting dado's to receive 4/4 S4S
> lumber and possibly MDF but not for receiving the common 3/4" piece of
> plywood.
My dadoes are usually rough straight from the saw, and sandpaper and a knife
or chisel always come out for step #2. I don't mind doing some
cleanup by hand.
The original poster was making tongues (tenons); a fixed setting would
work for him.
My stacked dado set is steel, the wobbler is carbide; maybe I'll use the
wobbler again someday.
But, I have stacked dado blades, and would usually use those instead.
On 1/27/2015 10:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>
> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>
> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>
> This is what the stub tenon looks like:
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
>
> I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
>
>
>
Yep, a wobbler dado does that.
You do want a stacked dado, or a router setup to cope them.
--
Jeff
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 5:44:51 AM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I
> > think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
> >
> > I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
> >
> > http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
> >
> > This is what the stub tenon looks like:
> >
> > http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
> >
> > I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it
> > together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
>
> Easiest to clean on a router table but I would just cut them with a
> regular blade in the first place. True, there would be twice as many cuts
> but still less if one considers cleaning with a router.
>
> My question is, why are you cutting the tenon in that direction? ISTR
> that you are doing kitchen doors and were wanting T & G? If that is the
> case, you would want a tenon centered along the length of the end,
> shoulders on each face of the wood.
>
>
You may have misinterpreted the picture I posted. I took the shot from above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
Here is the sample door I made:
http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150128_073101_zps18fb3cf8.jpg
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 11:50:21 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/28/15 10:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 11:32:01 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 1/28/15 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question
> >>> now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality,
> >>> or something in between?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Now, to throw more wrenches in the works.... I have the 208 and it
> >> does not cut perfectly flat. It leaves steps. I talked to Freud
> >> about it and all they would say is that maybe my arbor was worn,
> >> which was nonsense. My saw was fairly new at the time and every
> >> blade I put on it fits tight as a drum. It also leaves "bat ears*"
> >> on the edges of the cuts. *Google it.
> >>
> >> Having said that, it cuts fine for everything I've needed, so far.
> >> If I'm cutting on an area that "will show" I need to do some minor
> >> clean-up. BUT, it's still way, way, way, way better than those
> >> wobble sets. Way better.
> >>
> >> I only say all that so you can be an informed buyer. The 208s are
> >> hard to beat for under a hundred bucks. But they are far from
> >> perfect. If you do want perfectly flat and squared cuts, you will
> >> have to spend more money.
> >>
> >> BTW, the guy at Freuds told me the Diablo and Freud sets are the
> >> same exact blades with different paint jobs, just in case you see a
> >> Diablo set for sale.
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Thanks for "informing this buyer". ;-)
> >
> > I found this as a middle of the road option. There's a 20% discount
> > available at Amazon, total price with tax is $117.
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-H7200-Stacked-Dado-Set/dp/B0002ZU6X4
> >
>
> The reviews look really good. Hmmm.... Now I'm tempted. :-)
>
>
> --
>
> -MIKE-
>
Of course, as soon as I click the "Payment" button at Amazon, someone in this group will post a link to a better dado set at a lower price. ;-)
On 1/27/2015 8:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>
> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>
> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>
> This is what the stub tenon looks like:
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
>
> I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
>
>
>
Got a good sharp chisel? ;-)
"DerbyDad03" wrote:
>I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I
>think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
------------------------------------
Yep.
---------------------------------
> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
-----------------------------------------------
You just proved what Leon told you.
It's a wobble, not a true stacked dado like the SD-508.
Lew
"DerbyDad03" wrote:
> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question
> now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality,
> or something in between?
-----------------------------------------------------
The old adage applies.
There is no such thing as a cheap tool.
There is the quality tool you buy once and move on to other tasks.
There is the low inital cost tool that doesn't quite do the job and
you
replace it with another low inital cost tool in hopes of solving the
quality issue. Sooner or later you buy the quality tool.
I bought the SD508 and yes it HURT at the time; however, knowing that
everytime I reach for the SD-508, it's going to do the job makes the
HURT go away a little faster.
Good luck.
Lew
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 1:43:01 PM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
> On 1/29/2015 5:05 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:16:37 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
> >> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]
> >>
> >
> >>> I took the shot from
> >>> above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
> >
> >> In another reply, you said you were going to reduce the width of the dado.
> >> Good idea. If you had it set to way beyond the 1/4" you need, reducing it
> >> to a hair over 1/4" will markedly reduce the curve.
> >
> > This may be misguided; wobble-dado blades are sharpened at the factory in
> > a manner that will be a bad match for either extreme (wide or narrow)
> > of the width setting. There IS likely a setting at which the wobble-blade cuts
> > a flat bottom.
> >
> > For my (Sears Craftsman 720.3261) blade, the instruction sheet indicates
> > that width is 3/4" (0.750 inches).
> >
>
> Regardless of how a wobble blade is sharpened at the factory or where
> ever, if it wobbles/cuts wider than the width of the teeth on the blade,
> it will not produce a flat bottom.
Not true. The sharpening of a wobble blade is NOT RIGHT ANGLE at
all the tooth faces. That analysis holds only for straight-blade sharpened
blades used with wobble washers, not for wobble-dado assemblies.
Standard blades are sharpened in the zero-wobble-angle state, of course.
> The only setting that the wobble blade will create a flat bottom is when
> it is adjusted to not wobble at all.
That depends on the manufacturer's wobble-setting when the blade was
put into the tooth-grinder. For my blade, flat cuts occur at 3/4".
Think of it this way: to cut a flat bottom dado with a 24T blade tilted at 10 degrees,
the leftmost edge has to be cut by tooth #1 whose crest is 80 degrees to the
left sawblade face, and 100 degrees to the right blade face. The rightmost
edge has to be cut by tooth #13 whose crest is 100 degrees from the left
face, 80 degrees to the right blade face. And the middle of the cut
is made by tooth #6 which is 90/90 degrees, regular square-cut, but
at a slightly smaller distance from the axis of the blade rotation.
Dado blade teeth for wobble-dado assemblies are sharpened exactly
as required to make a flat-bottom cut, but ONLY AT ONE SETTING.
On 1/28/2015 10:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/28/15 10:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 11:32:01 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/28/15 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question
>>>> now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality,
>>>> or something in between?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Now, to throw more wrenches in the works.... I have the 208 and it
>>> does not cut perfectly flat. It leaves steps. I talked to Freud
>>> about it and all they would say is that maybe my arbor was worn,
>>> which was nonsense. My saw was fairly new at the time and every
>>> blade I put on it fits tight as a drum. It also leaves "bat ears*"
>>> on the edges of the cuts. *Google it.
>>>
>>> Having said that, it cuts fine for everything I've needed, so far.
>>> If I'm cutting on an area that "will show" I need to do some minor
>>> clean-up. BUT, it's still way, way, way, way better than those
>>> wobble sets. Way better.
>>>
>>> I only say all that so you can be an informed buyer. The 208s are
>>> hard to beat for under a hundred bucks. But they are far from
>>> perfect. If you do want perfectly flat and squared cuts, you will
>>> have to spend more money.
>>>
>>> BTW, the guy at Freuds told me the Diablo and Freud sets are the
>>> same exact blades with different paint jobs, just in case you see a
>>> Diablo set for sale.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks for "informing this buyer". ;-)
>>
>> I found this as a middle of the road option. There's a 20% discount
>> available at Amazon, total price with tax is $117.
>>
>> http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-H7200-Stacked-Dado-Set/dp/B0002ZU6X4
>>
>
> The reviews look really good. Hmmm.... Now I'm tempted. :-)
>
>
If that 20% coupon works on any thing you could get top of the line for
about $100 more for a 6" set and never look back.
http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-DK06244-6-Inch-32-Inch-8-Inch/dp/B0000223VY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1422473261&sr=8-2&keywords=forrest+dado+king
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 2:33:04 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 1/28/2015 10:50 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> > On 1/28/15 10:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 11:32:01 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>> On 1/28/15 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question
> >>>> now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality,
> >>>> or something in between?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Now, to throw more wrenches in the works.... I have the 208 and it
> >>> does not cut perfectly flat. It leaves steps. I talked to Freud
> >>> about it and all they would say is that maybe my arbor was worn,
> >>> which was nonsense. My saw was fairly new at the time and every
> >>> blade I put on it fits tight as a drum. It also leaves "bat ears*"
> >>> on the edges of the cuts. *Google it.
> >>>
> >>> Having said that, it cuts fine for everything I've needed, so far.
> >>> If I'm cutting on an area that "will show" I need to do some minor
> >>> clean-up. BUT, it's still way, way, way, way better than those
> >>> wobble sets. Way better.
> >>>
> >>> I only say all that so you can be an informed buyer. The 208s are
> >>> hard to beat for under a hundred bucks. But they are far from
> >>> perfect. If you do want perfectly flat and squared cuts, you will
> >>> have to spend more money.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, the guy at Freuds told me the Diablo and Freud sets are the
> >>> same exact blades with different paint jobs, just in case you see a
> >>> Diablo set for sale.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> Thanks for "informing this buyer". ;-)
> >>
> >> I found this as a middle of the road option. There's a 20% discount
> >> available at Amazon, total price with tax is $117.
> >>
> >> http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-H7200-Stacked-Dado-Set/dp/B0002ZU6X4
> >>
> >
> > The reviews look really good. Hmmm.... Now I'm tempted. :-)
> >
> >
> If that 20% coupon works on any thing you could get top of the line for=
=20
> about $100 more for a 6" set and never look back.
>=20
> http://www.amazon.com/Forrest-DK06244-6-Inch-32-Inch-8-Inch/dp/B0000223VY=
/ref=3Dsr_1_2?ie=3DUTF8&qid=3D1422473261&sr=3D8-2&keywords=3Dforrest+dado+k=
ing
I quote from the Amazon page for the DeWalt Dado set:
"This Item is Included in Our DEWALT Accessories Promotion. From January 5,=
2015, through March 31, 2015, you can get 10% off at checkout when you spe=
nd $25 or more on select DEWALT accessories shipped and sold by Amazon.com,=
or 20% off a purchase of $50 or more."
The promo is for DeWalt stuff only.
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:16:37 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
> > I took the shot from
> > above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
> In another reply, you said you were going to reduce the width of the dado.
> Good idea. If you had it set to way beyond the 1/4" you need, reducing it
> to a hair over 1/4" will markedly reduce the curve.
This may be misguided; wobble-dado blades are sharpened at the factory in
a manner that will be a bad match for either extreme (wide or narrow)
of the width setting. There IS likely a setting at which the wobble-blade cuts
a flat bottom.
For my (Sears Craftsman 720.3261) blade, the instruction sheet indicates
that width is 3/4" (0.750 inches).
On 1/29/2015 5:05 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:16:37 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
>> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>
>>> I took the shot from
>>> above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
>
>> In another reply, you said you were going to reduce the width of the dado.
>> Good idea. If you had it set to way beyond the 1/4" you need, reducing it
>> to a hair over 1/4" will markedly reduce the curve.
>
> This may be misguided; wobble-dado blades are sharpened at the factory in
> a manner that will be a bad match for either extreme (wide or narrow)
> of the width setting. There IS likely a setting at which the wobble-blade cuts
> a flat bottom.
>
> For my (Sears Craftsman 720.3261) blade, the instruction sheet indicates
> that width is 3/4" (0.750 inches).
>
Regardless of how a wobble blade is sharpened at the factory or where
ever, if it wobbles/cuts wider than the width of the teeth on the blade,
it will not produce a flat bottom.
The only setting that the wobble blade will create a flat bottom is when
it is adjusted to not wobble at all.
Actually, the wider the cut the more extreme the cup in the bottom of
the cut.
Sears/Craftaman power tools say a lot of things to sell their product.
Remember the 6.5 hp shop vacs?
On 1/29/2015 5:05 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:16:37 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
>> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>
>>> I took the shot from
>>> above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
>
>> In another reply, you said you were going to reduce the width of the dado.
>> Good idea. If you had it set to way beyond the 1/4" you need, reducing it
>> to a hair over 1/4" will markedly reduce the curve.
>
> This may be misguided; wobble-dado blades are sharpened at the factory in
> a manner that will be a bad match for either extreme (wide or narrow)
> of the width setting. There IS likely a setting at which the wobble-blade cuts
> a flat bottom.
It will be less pronounced but it will NOT be a flat bottom dado.
The only time a wobble blade will cut a flat bottom is if the kerf is,
let's say, 1/8" and you have it set for a 1/8" dado. In other words NO
WOBBLE and the blade tip remains perfectly perpendicular to the workpiece.
Just think about the path that wobbling blade takes for a minute or so
and visualize it sweeping back and forth like a pendulum.
Wobblies are handy for removing large amounts of wood quickly and for
dadoes where it doesn't matter if the bottom is curved, as in door panel
inserts or drawer bottoms.
"Leon" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 1/29/2015 12:53 PM, DJ Delorie wrote:
>
> My dad's advice - either buy the least expensive tool you can . . .
My dad's philosophy, common I've always thought among many who grew
up in during the depression. Always suspected that had my folks won a $100
million lottery, Dad would have gone to his grave with $99,990,000 unspent.
And, he would have begrudged my mother for foolishly spending the other
$10k.
I'll always buy the best tool/toy I can afford but, alas, it's more
often than not like pulling teeth.
Dave in SoTex
On 1/28/2015 9:16 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 9:42:51 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>> On 1/28/2015 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> However, I don't know that I can justify $200 for a Freud SD508. What are your thoughts on a SD208 for $85?
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.com/Freud-SD208-8-Inch-Professional-Dado/dp/B0000223O9/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1422453431&sr=8-2&keywords=freud+sd508+dado
>>
>>> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality, or something in between?
>>
>> Depends upon how much you use a dado stack.
>>
>> My guess, judging from your previous conversations, is that the less
>> expensive 208 will likely be all you need and will obviously do the job
>> MUCH better than that POS wobble you have.
>>
> ...snip...
>
> Maybe I'll split the difference. The DeWalt DW7670 has 24 teeth and 4 chippers, just like the SD508 but is $90 cheaper all-in with 20% off at Amazon:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-H7200-Stacked-Dado-Set/dp/B0002ZU6X4
>
> Thoughts?
>
Keep in mind that some of the stacked dado sets have chippers that
sometimes cut deeper and or shallower. This can happen if the arbor
holes are close to a perfect on the arbor. The result is about as bad
as using a wobble blade.
AND should you have the dado set sharpened you want all to be ground to
the same diameter. Blades get a little bit shorter each time you
sharpen them and this will really show up on a stacked set.
I don't think you will every be sorry buying a quality dado set.
On 1/28/2015 10:31 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/28/15 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>
>> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question now
>> is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality, or
>> something in between?
>>
>
> Now, to throw more wrenches in the works....
> I have the 208 and it does not cut perfectly flat. It leaves steps.
> I talked to Freud about it and all they would say is that maybe my arbor
> was worn, which was nonsense. My saw was fairly new at the time and
> every blade I put on it fits tight as a drum. It also leaves "bat
> ears*" on the edges of the cuts. *Google it.
The steps can be a result of the hole in the chipper not being close to
an exact fit on the arbor or if the set was not sharpened as a set.
Some chippers teeth could be longer or shorter.
My Forrest Dado King leaves ever so slight bat ears, I have not had any
issue with that.
>
>
DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I
> think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>
> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>
> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>
> This is what the stub tenon looks like:
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946
> _zps31a11295.jpg
>
> I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it
> together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
Like everyone else said, that's your dado set.
You need a shoulder plane to clean it up (ignore what anyone
else says, the only correct tool for cleaning up tenons is a
shoulder plane). You need a shoulder plane anyway, because
it's the only tool for fine-tuning tenons that are a tad thick,
or the shoulders don't perfectly line up, and you get those
problems every so often regardless of what you cut tenons
with.
You don't want to force tenons into mortices in poplar. Sooner
or later you'll split one of the morticed pieces. Poplar is
not very strong in that regard.
John
DJ Delorie <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
> My dad's advice - either buy the least expensive tool you can, or the
> best quality tool you can.
Wish my dad had had that advice. He was consistant - always
bought the least expensive tool. I threw them all out after
he passed on (actually, saved a set of screwdrivers and a
hammer, just in case my Mom ever needs to hang a picture or
tighten a loose knob).
John
On 1/31/2015 10:24 AM, Leon wrote:
> OK, I'll step back and retract the hocus pocus comment. ;~)
> I can see how a wobble blade can produce a flat bottom but only at one
> particular width setting.
'Bout damned time! LOL
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 1/28/2015 2:53 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "DerbyDad03" wrote:
>
>> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question
>> now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality,
>> or something in between?
> -----------------------------------------------------
> The old adage applies.
>
> There is no such thing as a cheap tool.
>
> There is the quality tool you buy once and move on to other tasks.
>
> There is the low inital cost tool that doesn't quite do the job and
> you
> replace it with another low inital cost tool in hopes of solving the
> quality issue. Sooner or later you buy the quality tool.
>
> I bought the SD508 and yes it HURT at the time; however, knowing that
> everytime I reach for the SD-508, it's going to do the job makes the
> HURT go away a little faster.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Lew
>
>
Precicely!
A tool that gives you repeated good results and calls for you to use it
time and again is a great tool and you will seldom remember the sting of
the price.
On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 7:04:59 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue.
(curved-bottom cut causes nonparallel tenons)
A wobble-type dado will cut a flat bottom of the width at which it was
sharpened; you can set it to the flattest-bottom cut, then use a
sacrificial fence to reveal the cutters to your tenon depth.
For a short stub, you could just use two or more cheapo blades (with washers
to adjust for the tooth set) instead of a complete dado set. I've bought
multiple on-sale blades for this purpose, but never got around to trying
it. Hey, if they were all sharpened in the same batch, the diameters WILL
match, just like a good dado set! This won't work well for wide
cuts, though, it takes extra motor power.
I've had the Excalibur for about twenty years, and have yet to find a
use for it. As you found out, it cuts a dado with a curved bottom. The
wider you adjust it, the worse the curve. Also, the width varies with
the tightness of the arbor nut, so it is very difficult to set a precise
width. It's been through two garage sales and a month on Craigslist, and
the damned thing is still collecting dust in my shop.
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 9:42:51 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/28/2015 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > However, I don't know that I can justify $200 for a Freud SD508. What are your thoughts on a SD208 for $85?
> >
> > http://www.amazon.com/Freud-SD208-8-Inch-Professional-Dado/dp/B0000223O9/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1422453431&sr=8-2&keywords=freud+sd508+dado
>
> > I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality, or something in between?
>
> Depends upon how much you use a dado stack.
>
> My guess, judging from your previous conversations, is that the less
> expensive 208 will likely be all you need and will obviously do the job
> MUCH better than that POS wobble you have.
>
...snip...
Maybe I'll split the difference. The DeWalt DW7670 has 24 teeth and 4 chippers, just like the SD508 but is $90 cheaper all-in with 20% off at Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-H7200-Stacked-Dado-Set/dp/B0002ZU6X4
Thoughts?
On 1/28/2015 7:31 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/27/2015 9:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I
>> think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>>
>> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>
> Too bad. Tkat's much more cove than you would normally get with a well
> made, properly set up and mounted, two bladed wobble dado in good shape.
>
> If you took the time to set it up properly and it makes that much cove
> in 1/2", it is indeed a POS, so toss it.
>
> Sorry it didn't work out for you, but I got the impression, since you
> had a new router table, that you didn't want to spring for a stacked
> dado set, so it was worth a try, eh?
>
> Lots of ways to clean that up, low angle block plane, pattern makers
> rasp, router table/straight bit, table saw with regular kerf blade, for
> starters.
>
> The only question is/was - do you want to take the time to clean them
> up, or spend the money on a quality tool?
DerbyDad, there's an oft quoted adage around here "New project = New
Tool" please don't screw it up for the rest of us (as SWMBO actually
believes me when I tell her this) <g>
Swingman is correct. There are a number of ways to do this project
efficiently and properly. Choose one and move on (hopefully with a new
tool).
The only certain thing here is that a wobble dado blade ain't going to
cut it (pun intended). There are only two things - that I can name off
the top of my head - I would use a wobble dado for.
1) hogging a lot of wood away quickly so that I can move in and finish
the process with a plane, chisel or router bit, or
2)cutting a dado in a rail and stile to hold a panel in place. In this
instance the wobble should work just fine as the panel doesn't really
care if the bottom is curved or not and neither will you.
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 2:15:42 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 1/28/2015 6:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> Snip
>
>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > You may have misinterpreted the picture I posted. I took the shot from above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
> >
> > Here is the sample door I made:
> >
> > http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150128_073101_zps18fb3cf8.jpg
> >
>
> That looks great.
Thanks...just don't look too close at the tenons. They have the offending shoulder caused by the wobble blade.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to order the DeWalt dado set from Amazon for $117. Much better then what I have now but it won't break the bank based on the about of work it will see.
On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 7:49:31 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
> On 1/30/2015 5:40 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> > On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 1:43:01 PM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
[about wobble-blade adjustable dados]
> >>> There IS likely a setting at which the wobble-blade cuts
> >>> a flat bottom.
> >>>
> >>> For my (Sears Craftsman 720.3261) blade, the instruction sheet indicates
> >>> that width is 3/4" (0.750 inches).
> >> The only setting that the wobble blade will create a flat bottom is when
> >> it is adjusted to not wobble at all.
> >
> > That depends on the manufacturer's wobble-setting when the blade was
> > put into the tooth-grinder. For my blade, flat cuts occur at 3/4".
> OK then...........
> I think you have read some hocus pocus info promoting wobble blades.
>
> But to be clear, I am not talking about a smooth bottom, I am talking
> about a bottom that is the same measurement in the middle of the cut as
> the outer edges of the cut.
Precisely: I've read the instruction sheet that came with my own blade; I find
no copy online, but this article has the basic info, too (see Figure 1d especially)
<http://www.woodworkingseminars.com/wp-content/DadoBlades.pdf>
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 11:32:01 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/28/15 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >
> > I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question now
> > is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality, or
> > something in between?
> >
>
> Now, to throw more wrenches in the works....
> I have the 208 and it does not cut perfectly flat. It leaves steps.
> I talked to Freud about it and all they would say is that maybe my arbor
> was worn, which was nonsense. My saw was fairly new at the time and
> every blade I put on it fits tight as a drum. It also leaves "bat
> ears*" on the edges of the cuts. *Google it.
>
> Having said that, it cuts fine for everything I've needed, so far. If
> I'm cutting on an area that "will show" I need to do some minor
> clean-up. BUT, it's still way, way, way, way better than those wobble
> sets. Way better.
>
> I only say all that so you can be an informed buyer. The 208s are hard
> to beat for under a hundred bucks. But they are far from perfect. If
> you do want perfectly flat and squared cuts, you will have to spend more
> money.
>
> BTW, the guy at Freuds told me the Diablo and Freud sets are the same
> exact blades with different paint jobs, just in case you see a Diablo
> set for sale.
>
>
Thanks for "informing this buyer". ;-)
I found this as a middle of the road option. There's a 20% discount available at Amazon, total price with tax is $117.
http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-H7200-Stacked-Dado-Set/dp/B0002ZU6X4
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 8:31:25 AM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/27/2015 9:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I t=
hink may need to buy a stacked dado set.
> >
> > I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>=20
> Too bad. Tkat's much more cove than you would normally get with a well=20
> made, properly set up and mounted, two bladed wobble dado in good shape.
>=20
> If you took the time to set it up properly and it makes that much cove=20
> in 1/2", it is indeed a POS, so toss it.
The only "set-up" option I think I have is to reduce the width of the dado =
to the bare minimum required to cut the tenon and still use the fence as th=
e length guide. That should reduce the wobble, but I don't know if it will =
be enough. It was getting late by the time I tested the Excalibur and I did=
n't want to spend any more time on it. The dog wanted to go out before bed =
and didn't seem to care that I was busy. I'll try again tonight. =20
>=20
> Sorry it didn't work out for you, but I got the impression, since you=20
> had a new router table, that you didn't want to spring for a stacked=20
> dado set, so it was worth a try, eh?
Yes, it was definitely worth a try, but now that I've actually cut a stub t=
enon on the table saw, I can see that the method has it's merits. In additi=
on, owning a decent dado blade has it's advantages too. However, I don't kn=
ow that I can justify $200 for a Freud SD508. What are your thoughts on a S=
D208 for $85?
http://www.amazon.com/Freud-SD208-8-Inch-Professional-Dado/dp/B0000223O9/re=
f=3Dsr_1_2?ie=3DUTF8&qid=3D1422453431&sr=3D8-2&keywords=3Dfreud+sd508+dado
>=20
> Lots of ways to clean that up, low angle block plane, pattern makers=20
> rasp, router table/straight bit, table saw with regular kerf blade, for=
=20
> starters.
>=20
> The only question is/was - do you want to take the time to clean them=20
> up, or spend the money on a quality tool?
>=20
I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question now is: h=
ow much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality, or something in be=
tween?
On 1/31/2015 9:49 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/30/2015 5:40 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>> On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 1:43:01 PM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
>>> On 1/29/2015 5:05 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:16:37 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
>>>>> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> I took the shot from
>>>>>> above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
>>>>
>>>>> In another reply, you said you were going to reduce the width of
>>>>> the dado.
>>>>> Good idea. If you had it set to way beyond the 1/4" you need,
>>>>> reducing it
>>>>> to a hair over 1/4" will markedly reduce the curve.
>>>>
>>>> This may be misguided; wobble-dado blades are sharpened at the
>>>> factory in
>>>> a manner that will be a bad match for either extreme (wide or narrow)
>>>> of the width setting. There IS likely a setting at which the
>>>> wobble-blade cuts
>>>> a flat bottom.
>>>>
>>>> For my (Sears Craftsman 720.3261) blade, the instruction sheet
>>>> indicates
>>>> that width is 3/4" (0.750 inches).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Regardless of how a wobble blade is sharpened at the factory or where
>>> ever, if it wobbles/cuts wider than the width of the teeth on the blade,
>>> it will not produce a flat bottom.
>>
>> Not true. The sharpening of a wobble blade is NOT RIGHT ANGLE at
>> all the tooth faces. That analysis holds only for straight-blade
>> sharpened
>> blades used with wobble washers, not for wobble-dado assemblies.
>> Standard blades are sharpened in the zero-wobble-angle state, of course.
>>
>>> The only setting that the wobble blade will create a flat bottom is when
>>> it is adjusted to not wobble at all.
>>
>> That depends on the manufacturer's wobble-setting when the blade was
>> put into the tooth-grinder. For my blade, flat cuts occur at 3/4".
>>
>> Think of it this way: to cut a flat bottom dado with a 24T blade
>> tilted at 10 degrees,
>> the leftmost edge has to be cut by tooth #1 whose crest is 80 degrees
>> to the
>> left sawblade face, and 100 degrees to the right blade face. The
>> rightmost
>> edge has to be cut by tooth #13 whose crest is 100 degrees from the left
>> face, 80 degrees to the right blade face. And the middle of the cut
>> is made by tooth #6 which is 90/90 degrees, regular square-cut, but
>> at a slightly smaller distance from the axis of the blade rotation.
>> Dado blade teeth for wobble-dado assemblies are sharpened exactly
>> as required to make a flat-bottom cut, but ONLY AT ONE SETTING.
>>
> OK then...........
> I think you have read some hocus pocus info promoting wobble blades.
>
> But to be clear, I am not talking about a smooth bottom, I am talking
> about a bottom that is the same measurement in the middle of the cut as
> the outer edges of the cut.
>
> In order for a wobble blade to not cut a round bottom, when adjusted to
> wobble, the blade would have to elongate where the outer cutting teeth
> come in contact with the outside of the cut and shorten where they come
> in contact with the center of the cut. The wider the blade setting, the
> longer the part of the blade with the teeth cutting the outer sections
> of the dado will have to be. If the wobble blade was manufactured to be
> non adjustable it could be made to cut a flat bottom but it would not be
> perfectly round. The outer teeth would be farther from the center of
> the blade than the teeth in the center of the cut.
>
> Think of a ladder standing straight up in the air. It stands 10' up in
> the air. Now lean the ladder over 12", how high up in the air is it
> now. This is how a wobble blade works the farther away the teeth are
> from dead center the shallower they cut. Those teeth that are still
> located near the center of the blade will cut deeper.
>
>
OK, I'll step back and retract the hocus pocus comment. ;~)
I can see how a wobble blade can produce a flat bottom but only at one
particular width setting. It does in one way as I indicated have
properties that the cutting surface of the outer teeth are farther from
the center of the blade as those that are closer to the center.
But with that in mind, is a blade that only cuts one width well worth
having? While a 3/4" setting seems like a common size to cut, in the
real world it only works well for cutting dado's to receive 4/4 S4S
lumber and possibly MDF but not for receiving the common 3/4" piece of
plywood.
On 1/27/2015 10:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>
> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>
> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>
> This is what the stub tenon looks like:
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
>
> I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
>
>
>
It does not look like a very square cut. Yes, it could be the blade.
You have options thouch. Easiest is to buy a good blade, such as Ridge
Carbide, Forrest, Infinity. Another is to take the bulk of the material
out with your blade and clean it up with a good combination blade.
Not cheap though
http://ridgecarbidetool.com/dado-sets/8-dado-master.html
On 1/27/2015 9:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>
> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
Too bad. Tkat's much more cove than you would normally get with a well
made, properly set up and mounted, two bladed wobble dado in good shape.
If you took the time to set it up properly and it makes that much cove
in 1/2", it is indeed a POS, so toss it.
Sorry it didn't work out for you, but I got the impression, since you
had a new router table, that you didn't want to spring for a stacked
dado set, so it was worth a try, eh?
Lots of ways to clean that up, low angle block plane, pattern makers
rasp, router table/straight bit, table saw with regular kerf blade, for
starters.
The only question is/was - do you want to take the time to clean them
up, or spend the money on a quality tool?
--
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Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 1/28/2015 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> However, I don't know that I can justify $200 for a Freud SD508. What are your thoughts on a SD208 for $85?
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Freud-SD208-8-Inch-Professional-Dado/dp/B0000223O9/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1422453431&sr=8-2&keywords=freud+sd508+dado
> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality, or something in between?
Depends upon how much you use a dado stack.
My guess, judging from your previous conversations, is that the less
expensive 208 will likely be all you need and will obviously do the job
MUCH better than that POS wobble you have.
Again, sorry the wobble blade didn't work out. My first dado blade was a
double wobble, as it was pretty much all that was available back then,
and you eventually learned to get relatively usable results out of it as
a matter of necessity, fussy, and some cleanup was needed, but that was
expected in those days.
While they are far from ideal compared to today's tools, don't believe
all the naysayers ... when there IS nothing else, some mighty fine work
can be done using one.
Just ask Norm ... ;)
Needless to say, a couple of methods used I hesitate to mention because
of what would be considered safety issues these days.
--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
On 1/28/2015 6:59 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Snip
>>
>>
>
> You may have misinterpreted the picture I posted. I took the shot from above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
>
> Here is the sample door I made:
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150128_073101_zps18fb3cf8.jpg
>
That looks great.
On 1/28/2015 7:06 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 27, 2015 at 10:36:20 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/27/2015 9:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>>>
>>> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>>>
>>> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>>
>>
>> That is the result you get with a wobble dado set. Yes even with two
>> blades you get a rounded bottom.
>>
>> You either need "good dado set" or cut them as I mentioned earlier with
>> a straight bit in the router table.
>
> Yeah, I'm still wobbling (pun intended) between dropping the bucks for a good dado blade or buying the less expensive T&G bit set from MLCS. I guess a dado blade would be the better investment i.e. more options for future use.
There would be countless uses with a good dado set and having a good
dado set would give you the confidence, knowing that you will get food
grooves a dados, to perhaps tackle more complex projects.
>>
>>>
>>> This is what the stub tenon looks like:
>>>
>>> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
>>>
>>> I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
>>
>> Sand paper wrapped around a block of wood and elbow grease. And you are
>> going to need to cut them equal in length on both sides or the joint
>> will not close.
>
> Yes, the picture I posted was not of the best (of the bad) tenons that I cut. Things got better as I moved along. It's a good thing I've got lots of scraps from the drawer cutoffs. ;-)
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150128_073101_zps18fb3cf8.jpg
>
"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I
> think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>
> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>
> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>
> This is what the stub tenon looks like:
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
>
> I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it
> together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
Easiest to clean on a router table but I would just cut them with a
regular blade in the first place. True, there would be twice as many cuts
but still less if one considers cleaning with a router.
My question is, why are you cutting the tenon in that direction? ISTR
that you are doing kitchen doors and were wanting T & G? If that is the
case, you would want a tenon centered along the length of the end,
shoulders on each face of the wood.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
"DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> > My question is, why are you cutting the tenon in that direction? ISTR
> > that you are doing kitchen doors and were wanting T & G? If that is
> > the
> > case, you would want a tenon centered along the length of the end,
> > shoulders on each face of the wood.
> >
> >
>
> You may have misinterpreted the picture I posted. I took the shot from
> above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
Yeah, my bad.
In another reply, you said you were going to reduce the width of the dado.
Good idea. If you had it set to way beyond the 1/4" you need, reducing it
to a hair over 1/4" will markedly reduce the curve.
--
dadiOH
____________________________
Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net
On 1/28/15 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question now
> is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality, or
> something in between?
>
Now, to throw more wrenches in the works....
I have the 208 and it does not cut perfectly flat. It leaves steps.
I talked to Freud about it and all they would say is that maybe my arbor
was worn, which was nonsense. My saw was fairly new at the time and
every blade I put on it fits tight as a drum. It also leaves "bat
ears*" on the edges of the cuts. *Google it.
Having said that, it cuts fine for everything I've needed, so far. If
I'm cutting on an area that "will show" I need to do some minor
clean-up. BUT, it's still way, way, way, way better than those wobble
sets. Way better.
I only say all that so you can be an informed buyer. The 208s are hard
to beat for under a hundred bucks. But they are far from perfect. If
you do want perfectly flat and squared cuts, you will have to spend more
money.
BTW, the guy at Freuds told me the Diablo and Freud sets are the same
exact blades with different paint jobs, just in case you see a Diablo
set for sale.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/28/15 10:42 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 11:32:01 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/28/15 8:05 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>
>>> I believe the "quality tool" route is the way to go. The question
>>> now is: how much quality do I need? SD508 quality, SD208 quality,
>>> or something in between?
>>>
>>
>> Now, to throw more wrenches in the works.... I have the 208 and it
>> does not cut perfectly flat. It leaves steps. I talked to Freud
>> about it and all they would say is that maybe my arbor was worn,
>> which was nonsense. My saw was fairly new at the time and every
>> blade I put on it fits tight as a drum. It also leaves "bat ears*"
>> on the edges of the cuts. *Google it.
>>
>> Having said that, it cuts fine for everything I've needed, so far.
>> If I'm cutting on an area that "will show" I need to do some minor
>> clean-up. BUT, it's still way, way, way, way better than those
>> wobble sets. Way better.
>>
>> I only say all that so you can be an informed buyer. The 208s are
>> hard to beat for under a hundred bucks. But they are far from
>> perfect. If you do want perfectly flat and squared cuts, you will
>> have to spend more money.
>>
>> BTW, the guy at Freuds told me the Diablo and Freud sets are the
>> same exact blades with different paint jobs, just in case you see a
>> Diablo set for sale.
>>
>>
>
> Thanks for "informing this buyer". ;-)
>
> I found this as a middle of the road option. There's a 20% discount
> available at Amazon, total price with tax is $117.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-H7200-Stacked-Dado-Set/dp/B0002ZU6X4
>
The reviews look really good. Hmmm.... Now I'm tempted. :-)
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/28/15 1:26 PM, Leon wrote:
> The steps can be a result of the
> hole in the chipper not being close to an exact fit on the arbor or
> if the set was not sharpened as a set. Some chippers teeth could be
> longer or shorter.
>
They weren't sharpened after purchase.
I tried to get across to the guy at Freud that there must be an
imperfection in a blade but all he seemed interested in was blaming my
saw.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I
>> think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>>
>> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>>
>> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>>
>> This is what the stub tenon looks like:
>>
>> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946
>> _zps31a11295.jpg
>>
Sometimes it is worth a quick reminder - when posting url's that are likely
to experience line wrap, and cause minor problems for people to just click
on, place your url within the < and > characters.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 1/27/15, 8:36 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/27/2015 9:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I
>> think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>>
>> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>>
>> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>
>
> That is the result you get with a wobble dado set. Yes even with two
> blades you get a rounded bottom.
>
> You either need "good dado set" or cut them as I mentioned earlier with
> a straight bit in the router table.
>
>
I'd do what Leon says (router table).
You have the bulk of the material already removed and once you dial in
the router setup, 100 tenons will go faster than most any other method
(plus you get a perfectly square part)
-BR
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---
On 1/28/15 11:31 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/28/2015 1:50 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/28/15 1:26 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> The steps can be a result of the
>>> hole in the chipper not being close to an exact fit on the arbor or
>>> if the set was not sharpened as a set. Some chippers teeth could be
>>> longer or shorter.
>>>
>>
>> They weren't sharpened after purchase.
>> I tried to get across to the guy at Freud that there must be an
>> imperfection in a blade but all he seemed interested in was blaming my
>> saw.
>>
>>
>
>
> Sorry, I was not indicating that the blades had been resharpened so much
> as improperly sharpened to begin with.
>
> I would say that you cannot expect Freud to be helpful if you are
> getting the results that "they" expect, for some people that is good
> enough.
True, very true.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/27/15 9:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I
> think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>
> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>
> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
>
> This is what the stub tenon looks like:
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
>
> I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it
> together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
>
By the way, if anyone reading this is using a dado set on their Ridgid
table saw, you might want to check the model number of the saw before
you continue.
I ran across a recall notice on the R4511 model.
Apparently the arbor shaft fails when using stacked dado blades.
<http://www.ridgid.com/Download/R4511_PR.pdf>
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/31/15 10:24 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/31/2015 9:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>> OK then........... I think you have read some hocus pocus info
>> promoting wobble blades.
>>
>> But to be clear, I am not talking about a smooth bottom, I am
>> talking about a bottom that is the same measurement in the middle
>> of the cut as the outer edges of the cut.
>>
>> In order for a wobble blade to not cut a round bottom, when
>> adjusted to wobble, the blade would have to elongate where the
>> outer cutting teeth come in contact with the outside of the cut
>> and shorten where they come in contact with the center of the cut.
>> The wider the blade setting, the longer the part of the blade with
>> the teeth cutting the outer sections of the dado will have to be.
>> If the wobble blade was manufactured to be non adjustable it could
>> be made to cut a flat bottom but it would not be perfectly round.
>> The outer teeth would be farther from the center of the blade than
>> the teeth in the center of the cut.
>>
>> Think of a ladder standing straight up in the air. It stands 10'
>> up in the air. Now lean the ladder over 12", how high up in the
>> air is it now. This is how a wobble blade works the farther away
>> the teeth are from dead center the shallower they cut. Those teeth
>> that are still located near the center of the blade will cut
>> deeper.
>>
>>
> OK, I'll step back and retract the hocus pocus comment. ;~) I can
> see how a wobble blade can produce a flat bottom but only at one
> particular width setting. It does in one way as I indicated have
> properties that the cutting surface of the outer teeth are farther
> from the center of the blade as those that are closer to the center.
>
> But with that in mind, is a blade that only cuts one width well worth
> having? While a 3/4" setting seems like a common size to cut, in
> the real world it only works well for cutting dado's to receive 4/4
> S4S lumber and possibly MDF but not for receiving the common 3/4"
> piece of plywood.
>
>
Bottom line is: no one who has ever gone from a wobbler to stacked dado
blades ever even thought of going back.
Heck even when I had a wobbler, I switched to a regular rip blade on my
table saw to cut cove molding because if left me with less sanding to do.
--
-MIKE-
"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply
On 1/28/2015 1:50 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/28/15 1:26 PM, Leon wrote:
>> The steps can be a result of the
>> hole in the chipper not being close to an exact fit on the arbor or
>> if the set was not sharpened as a set. Some chippers teeth could be
>> longer or shorter.
>>
>
> They weren't sharpened after purchase.
> I tried to get across to the guy at Freud that there must be an
> imperfection in a blade but all he seemed interested in was blaming my
> saw.
>
>
Sorry, I was not indicating that the blades had been resharpened so much
as improperly sharpened to begin with.
I would say that you cannot expect Freud to be helpful if you are
getting the results that "they" expect, for some people that is good enough.
On 1/31/2015 10:24 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 1/31/2015 9:49 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/30/2015 5:40 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 1:43:01 PM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 1/29/2015 5:05 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:16:37 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
>>>>>> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I took the shot from
>>>>>>> above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
>>>>>
>>>>>> In another reply, you said you were going to reduce the width of
>>>>>> the dado.
>>>>>> Good idea. If you had it set to way beyond the 1/4" you need,
>>>>>> reducing it
>>>>>> to a hair over 1/4" will markedly reduce the curve.
>>>>>
>>>>> This may be misguided; wobble-dado blades are sharpened at the
>>>>> factory in
>>>>> a manner that will be a bad match for either extreme (wide or narrow)
>>>>> of the width setting. There IS likely a setting at which the
>>>>> wobble-blade cuts
>>>>> a flat bottom.
>>>>>
>>>>> For my (Sears Craftsman 720.3261) blade, the instruction sheet
>>>>> indicates
>>>>> that width is 3/4" (0.750 inches).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regardless of how a wobble blade is sharpened at the factory or where
>>>> ever, if it wobbles/cuts wider than the width of the teeth on the
>>>> blade,
>>>> it will not produce a flat bottom.
>>>
>>> Not true. The sharpening of a wobble blade is NOT RIGHT ANGLE at
>>> all the tooth faces. That analysis holds only for straight-blade
>>> sharpened
>>> blades used with wobble washers, not for wobble-dado assemblies.
>>> Standard blades are sharpened in the zero-wobble-angle state, of course.
>>>
>>>> The only setting that the wobble blade will create a flat bottom is
>>>> when
>>>> it is adjusted to not wobble at all.
>>>
>>> That depends on the manufacturer's wobble-setting when the blade was
>>> put into the tooth-grinder. For my blade, flat cuts occur at 3/4".
>>>
>>> Think of it this way: to cut a flat bottom dado with a 24T blade
>>> tilted at 10 degrees,
>>> the leftmost edge has to be cut by tooth #1 whose crest is 80 degrees
>>> to the
>>> left sawblade face, and 100 degrees to the right blade face. The
>>> rightmost
>>> edge has to be cut by tooth #13 whose crest is 100 degrees from the left
>>> face, 80 degrees to the right blade face. And the middle of the cut
>>> is made by tooth #6 which is 90/90 degrees, regular square-cut, but
>>> at a slightly smaller distance from the axis of the blade rotation.
>>> Dado blade teeth for wobble-dado assemblies are sharpened exactly
>>> as required to make a flat-bottom cut, but ONLY AT ONE SETTING.
>>>
>> OK then...........
>> I think you have read some hocus pocus info promoting wobble blades.
>>
>> But to be clear, I am not talking about a smooth bottom, I am talking
>> about a bottom that is the same measurement in the middle of the cut as
>> the outer edges of the cut.
>>
>> In order for a wobble blade to not cut a round bottom, when adjusted to
>> wobble, the blade would have to elongate where the outer cutting teeth
>> come in contact with the outside of the cut and shorten where they come
>> in contact with the center of the cut. The wider the blade setting, the
>> longer the part of the blade with the teeth cutting the outer sections
>> of the dado will have to be. If the wobble blade was manufactured to be
>> non adjustable it could be made to cut a flat bottom but it would not be
>> perfectly round. The outer teeth would be farther from the center of
>> the blade than the teeth in the center of the cut.
>>
>> Think of a ladder standing straight up in the air. It stands 10' up in
>> the air. Now lean the ladder over 12", how high up in the air is it
>> now. This is how a wobble blade works the farther away the teeth are
>> from dead center the shallower they cut. Those teeth that are still
>> located near the center of the blade will cut deeper.
>>
>>
> OK, I'll step back and retract the hocus pocus comment. ;~)
> I can see how a wobble blade can produce a flat bottom but only at one
> particular width setting. It does in one way as I indicated have
> properties that the cutting surface of the outer teeth are farther from
> the center of the blade as those that are closer to the center.
>
> But with that in mind, is a blade that only cuts one width well worth
> having? While a 3/4" setting seems like a common size to cut, in the
> real world it only works well for cutting dado's to receive 4/4 S4S
> lumber and possibly MDF but not for receiving the common 3/4" piece of
> plywood.
>
>
That is why I got a stack up blade set - in metric. Plywood is mostly
if not all metric. The stack up does imperial as well. My very old
wobble is in the case - for the job just made for it.
Martin
On 1/30/2015 5:40 PM, whit3rd wrote:
> On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 1:43:01 PM UTC-8, Leon wrote:
>> On 1/29/2015 5:05 PM, whit3rd wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 7:16:37 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
>>>> "DerbyDad03" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]
>>>>
>>>
>>>>> I took the shot from
>>>>> above to show the shoulders left by the wobble dado.
>>>
>>>> In another reply, you said you were going to reduce the width of the dado.
>>>> Good idea. If you had it set to way beyond the 1/4" you need, reducing it
>>>> to a hair over 1/4" will markedly reduce the curve.
>>>
>>> This may be misguided; wobble-dado blades are sharpened at the factory in
>>> a manner that will be a bad match for either extreme (wide or narrow)
>>> of the width setting. There IS likely a setting at which the wobble-blade cuts
>>> a flat bottom.
>>>
>>> For my (Sears Craftsman 720.3261) blade, the instruction sheet indicates
>>> that width is 3/4" (0.750 inches).
>>>
>>
>> Regardless of how a wobble blade is sharpened at the factory or where
>> ever, if it wobbles/cuts wider than the width of the teeth on the blade,
>> it will not produce a flat bottom.
>
> Not true. The sharpening of a wobble blade is NOT RIGHT ANGLE at
> all the tooth faces. That analysis holds only for straight-blade sharpened
> blades used with wobble washers, not for wobble-dado assemblies.
> Standard blades are sharpened in the zero-wobble-angle state, of course.
>
>> The only setting that the wobble blade will create a flat bottom is when
>> it is adjusted to not wobble at all.
>
> That depends on the manufacturer's wobble-setting when the blade was
> put into the tooth-grinder. For my blade, flat cuts occur at 3/4".
>
> Think of it this way: to cut a flat bottom dado with a 24T blade tilted at 10 degrees,
> the leftmost edge has to be cut by tooth #1 whose crest is 80 degrees to the
> left sawblade face, and 100 degrees to the right blade face. The rightmost
> edge has to be cut by tooth #13 whose crest is 100 degrees from the left
> face, 80 degrees to the right blade face. And the middle of the cut
> is made by tooth #6 which is 90/90 degrees, regular square-cut, but
> at a slightly smaller distance from the axis of the blade rotation.
> Dado blade teeth for wobble-dado assemblies are sharpened exactly
> as required to make a flat-bottom cut, but ONLY AT ONE SETTING.
>
OK then...........
I think you have read some hocus pocus info promoting wobble blades.
But to be clear, I am not talking about a smooth bottom, I am talking
about a bottom that is the same measurement in the middle of the cut as
the outer edges of the cut.
In order for a wobble blade to not cut a round bottom, when adjusted to
wobble, the blade would have to elongate where the outer cutting teeth
come in contact with the outside of the cut and shorten where they come
in contact with the center of the cut. The wider the blade setting, the
longer the part of the blade with the teeth cutting the outer sections
of the dado will have to be. If the wobble blade was manufactured to be
non adjustable it could be made to cut a flat bottom but it would not be
perfectly round. The outer teeth would be farther from the center of
the blade than the teeth in the center of the cut.
Think of a ladder standing straight up in the air. It stands 10' up in
the air. Now lean the ladder over 12", how high up in the air is it
now. This is how a wobble blade works the farther away the teeth are
from dead center the shallower they cut. Those teeth that are still
located near the center of the blade will cut deeper.
On 1/28/2015 10:16 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> Maybe I'll split the difference. The DeWalt DW7670 has 24 teeth and 4 chippers, just like the SD508 but is $90 cheaper all-in with 20% off at Amazon:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/DeWalt-H7200-Stacked-Dado-Set/dp/B0002ZU6X4
>
> Thoughts?
>
Can't say for sure unless I used it, but it is far better than what you
have. Considering the price difference and how much you will be using
it, probably a good buy. DeWalt is not the best, but is usually decent
and is certainly better than the really cheap stuff.
On 1/27/2015 9:04 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I tried my hand at stub tenon joints tonight and ran into an issue. I think may need to buy a stacked dado set.
>
> I have an Excalibur twin blade dado set:
>
> http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mkOfiTuWWV4SqEA63ssEW4Q.jpg
That is the result you get with a wobble dado set. Yes even with two
blades you get a rounded bottom.
You either need "good dado set" or cut them as I mentioned earlier with
a straight bit in the router table.
>
> This is what the stub tenon looks like:
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/20150127_205946_zps31a11295.jpg
>
> I don't know that I want to clean up 100 tenons although forcing it together does make for a really tight joint. :-)
Sand paper wrapped around a block of wood and elbow grease. And you are
going to need to cut them equal in length on both sides or the joint
will not close.