Greetings,
We are looking into getting our driveway paved - it is currently chat (it
runs to our house and connects with my shop - so there is my woodworking
tie-in ;-)), and I was wondering what the pros and cons are of
blacktop-vs-concrete. I have a few quotes for blacktop, and it ranges from
about $4900 for 2" of material vs $6100 for 3" of material (this includes
all prep, grading, underlayment material, waste removal, etc. on ~ 4500 sq
ft of surface). In the past, I believe it was true that concrete had an
initial higher up-front cost, but involved less maintenance over the long
run, however I am not sure if this is still true. I am waiting for the
concrete guy to stop by and give a quote - but thought I would pose the
question here as to the benefits of either for those of you that may have
had this done recently.
Thanks in advance.
George
Robbert Bonomi notes:
>>Without defining _what_ is the "long run", how can you possibly begin
to make
an assessment? Hint: this *is* why the DOD used concrete, where the
locals
were using asphalt. They *do* expect to be there for the "long run" --
their
"planning horizon" *IS* much longer than the local homeowners.
Nationally,
the 'average' length of ownership of residential real-estate is
_thirteen_
years. Anything you do with a 'life expectancy' longer than the time
you're
likely to remain in the property is, effectively, for the benefit of
the
_future_ owners.<<
We've got asphalt. Not a good job--put in by the contractor who raised
the road in front of the house, and they did a little better job on the
road. Not much. It has been down 21 years now and we've got a couple
Bug swallowing potholes that I'll patch this spring. Then in a couple
more years, I'll have two more inches of tar laid down. By the time
that's gone, we'll both be so decrepit we don't care, if we're not
dead. I've been in this place 18 years now, my wife about 31 or 33,
depending on her mood at the moment.
Let the kids worry about it after this next one. They'll be responsible
for selling it to pay our debts.
Joe responds:
>>I think that if I had a driveway that needed a new surface, and I
planned on living there for a long period of time, I'd go for a 5-6"
thick
blacktop surface with a good under layer system. Maybe even go with
crushed
stone for a few years until I knew the spots where the tires ran was
totally
compacted, etc. <<
Hell, they don't even do that on the roads around here. A few years
ago, they town and county got together and built Indepence Blvd., a
road to divert heavy truck traffic from downtown Bedford (don't giggle
here or they'll come getcha). Nice road, couple miles long connecting
two main drags, sort of. A light at each end. At the end closest to my
house (10 miles away, the other is twelve), it took about two months
for depressions to show at the tire positions at the light. WIthin
about six or eight months, those depressions were at least six inches
deep.
I'd bet that the guy who contracted that road did my driveway. He's
also probably the bidding winner on some county roads where there were
nearly a dozen asphalt separations in a 10 or 15 mile stretch--these
splits were noticeable because they ranged in size from three to 30
feet long and happened within days of rolling the asphalt. I believe
several of them happened as the roller passed the spot, while steam was
still rising.
In rising 28 years in this county, I have not once seen a decent
professional road job done. Every one requires repairs.
Of course, for those that don't need repairs, we find that the county
at long last has decided to bring water and sewage service to the area,
so they get torn up the next spring anyway. Of course, that only
happens for businesses. The rest of us get to continue with wells and
septic systems.
In article <[email protected]>,
Stephen M <[email protected]> wrote:
>Thankyou... the voice of sanity. I'm no expert but as resident of the 45th
>parallel, climate makes all the difference in expected lifespan of either
>type of driveway. I can't think of a single home in my community with a
>concrete driveway. I *have to* attibute that to the harsh climate.
It'd be a *WRONG* attribution, though. :)
In virtually any climate, *properly*installed* portland cement concrete will
'significantly' outlast properly installed 'blacktop' (technically "asphaltic
concrete", BTW).
Portland cement *IS* significantly more expensive than asphalt. The 'materials
cost' difference is much less than it used to be (general run-up of 'petroleum'
prices); but portland cement still requires: (a) much more time and care in
preparing the material, (b) more complex transport, (c) more, and more skilled,
labor in installation/finishing. All of which translate directly into higher
costs. There's also the issue of the delay between installation and '_fully_
ready to use' -- weeks for concrete, vs hours (at most), for asphalt.
The "lifetime" of portland cement is more dependent on 'proper installation'.
You can 'cut corners' further on an asphalt install, than you can on
portland cement, and still get something that is usable "for a few years".
You have try _really_ hard to get an asphalt install that won't be usable for
2-3 years. But "any idiot" can botch a portland cement job such that it
barely survives the first year.
The single _biggest_ factor that works against asphalt is *heat*. In cooler
climates, heat-related 'problems' do not manifest themselves to anywhere near
the degree that bedevils asphalt in warmer climes.
Thus, the "inferior" product may be "good enough" for that environment,
especially when one takes into consideration the *cost* difference between
"good enough", and 'doing it right'.
It's not that asphalt is 'better' than portland cement in a colder climate (it
is =not=) but that portland cement is not perceived to be "enough better" to
justify the higher cost. If your 'planning horizon' is say, 15020 years, does
the fact that a portland cement install will last for 100+ years, vs. asphalt
at a life of maybe 20-25 years, *really* make any difference? Either one will
last "longer than you care to think about." -- when whichever one you used
fails, it will be "somebody else's" problem. :)
>I just don't think you can answer the OP's question without factoring in
>geography.
Answering "which is best?" is easy. <grin>
Answering "which is 'good enough' for my needs?" is an entirely different
issue. And depends on a *lot* of things -- climate, geology and soil
conditions, topography, anticipated loading, frequency of use, required
'useful life', and a whole bunch more.
"Robert Bonomi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>... If your 'planning horizon' is say, 15020 years, ...
Not me. I've only got plans for the next 10,000 years. I like to fly by
the seat of my pants. :-P
[[.. some snipped original material restored, to provide context ..]]
In article <[email protected]>,
Stephen M <[email protected]> wrote:
|| Robert Bonomi wrote:
|| In article <[email protected]>,
|| Stephen M <[email protected]> wrote:
|| >Thankyou... the voice of sanity. I'm no expert but as resident of the 45th
|| >parallel, climate makes all the difference in expected lifespan of either
|| >type of driveway. I can't think of a single home in my community with a
|| >concrete driveway. I *have to* attibute that to the harsh climate.
>
>> It'd be a *WRONG* attribution, though. :)
>
>Why? Can you offer another reason almost nobody in Clinton County, NY
>(Bordering VT and Canada) uses concrete?
Sure!
Because they're *CHEAP* SOBs, with a (comparatively) short-term view. <grin>
Note: A "cool" climate is actually _easier_ on asphalt than a "hot" one.
Repeating from previous posting:
The single _biggest_ factor that works against asphalt is *heat*. In cooler
climates, heat-related 'problems' do not manifest themselves to anywhere near
the degree that bedevils asphalt in warmer climes.
Thus, the "inferior" product may be "good enough" for that environment,
especially when one takes into consideration the *cost* difference between
"good enough", and 'doing it right'.
Portland cement doesn't "give a damn" about temperatures, high or low.
What can do damage is 'freeze-thaw" cycles, where moisture gets into cracks
and expands as the water freezes.
This will break up *either* portland cement, or asphalt. If not properly
installed/supported, portland cement is somewhat more vulnerable to this,
because it is comparatively brittle (whereas asphalt is somewhat flexible),
which facilitates development of cracks.
>> In virtually any climate, *properly*installed* portland cement concrete
>will
>> 'significantly' outlast properly installed 'blacktop' (technically
>"asphaltic
>> concrete", BTW).
>
>Much snippage.
>
>Bob, I did not intend to imply that concrete was not longer lasting. I'm
>sure that it is. What I did mean was that without factoring in climate, you
>could not make *specific* age predictions about either asphalt or concrete.
For "specific" aging predictions -- as in "concrete will last X years, while
asphalt will only last Y years" -- I won't argue.
Properly installed concrete, for practical purposes, *does*not* wear out
simply due to the passage of time. The size of the loads applied, the
frequency of the loading, and 'scuffing' from friction turn out to be the
major "life expectancy limiting" factors.
Asphalt, on the other hand _does_ "age". It doesn't have structural integrity
enough to support its own weight. The 'binder' that holds the rocks together
*is* volatile (it is a hydrocarbon compound) -- not _very_ volatile, but
nonetheless volatile -- and does evaporate/leach out over time. Regular
"preventive maintenance" can slow the process, but not prevent it. As the
binder "looses its grip" the asphalt just crumbles and falls apart.
Repeating from prior post:
Answering "which is best?" is easy. <grin>
Answering "which is 'good enough' for my needs?" is an entirely different
issue. And depends on a *lot* of things -- climate, geology and soil
conditions, topography, anticipated loading, frequency of use, required
'useful life', and a whole bunch more.
>Without specific (regional) age predictions, how can you asess whether the
>upgrade to concrete is cost-effective in the long run?
Without defining _what_ is the "long run", how can you possibly begin to make
an assessment? Hint: this *is* why the DOD used concrete, where the locals
were using asphalt. They *do* expect to be there for the "long run" -- their
"planning horizon" *IS* much longer than the local homeowners. Nationally,
the 'average' length of ownership of residential real-estate is _thirteen_
years. Anything you do with a 'life expectancy' longer than the time you're
likely to remain in the property is, effectively, for the benefit of the
_future_ owners.
George, Been thru this loop with in the last year. There is no good answer.
But here are some points.
1. Concrete will be more level (if poured properly).
2. Concrete will be stronger if poured proper.
3. Asphalt almost always will be less expensive.
4. Concrete will require a sealing coat every two years or so for maximum
life.
5. Asphalt will require a sealcoat for durability and good looks every one
to two years.
6. A good quality base will be almost indentical for either.
7. If you are on a steep hill like me, and the asphalt is laid in hot
weather, it may thin out (even with the best of contractors) and require a
second layer to be blended in to maintain proper thickness.
8. If on a steep hill in any weather, the concrete men will work themselves
to death to get a good job.
9. If a vehicle leaks a little oil.........the blacktop show it less than
concrete.
10. If a water or cable line has to be installed later....the asphalt cuts a
little easier than a thick concrete slab.
I could bore you to death with things I considered but, there is no right or
wrong answer. Your budget and imagination and abilitiy to to obtain that
"right" contractor , or to do it yourself are the only limits you will
encounter.
P.S. If you must know...........I stubbed in several utilties myself around
our house, then hired a concrete contractor to pour exposed aggregate
turnaround area @the house (I couldn't get enough friends together to ensure
it was poured proper). I then hired a paving contrator to do the driveway
and sideroad to workshop. I elected to do the tearout of dirt and building
of base myself as I have a tractor and access to dump truck and a guy that
wanted the dirt. All this was just sheer luck and a window of opportunity.
It all looks nice and I am satisfied with all of it. I have both and still
can't tell you which I like best. The concrete looks nicer but the paving is
more cost effective. New Albany, IN area.
Good luck Lyndell
"George Gibeau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greetings,
>
> We are looking into getting our driveway paved - it is currently chat (it
> runs to our house and connects with my shop - so there is my woodworking
> tie-in ;-)), and I was wondering what the pros and cons are of
> blacktop-vs-concrete. I have a few quotes for blacktop, and it ranges
from
> about $4900 for 2" of material vs $6100 for 3" of material (this includes
> all prep, grading, underlayment material, waste removal, etc. on ~ 4500 sq
> ft of surface). In the past, I believe it was true that concrete had an
> initial higher up-front cost, but involved less maintenance over the long
> run, however I am not sure if this is still true. I am waiting for the
> concrete guy to stop by and give a quote - but thought I would pose the
> question here as to the benefits of either for those of you that may have
> had this done recently.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> George
>
>
I did an asphalt drive in Colorado about 5 years ago and the asphalt was
well below what concrete would have cost me.
Another asphalt advantage for the climate there was the heat generated
by the asphalt on a sunny day. This helped melt snow faster.
It does need to be sealed in 6 mo. to a year though which will prolong
its life.
At least that is what the asphalt guy told me. The cost at that time
and place was $50 per foot for a 100 foot drive.
RonT
Charlie Self wrote:
> Joe responds:
>
>
>>>I think that if I had a driveway that needed a new surface, and I
>
> planned on living there for a long period of time, I'd go for a 5-6"
> thick
> blacktop surface with a good under layer system. Maybe even go with
> crushed
> stone for a few years until I knew the spots where the tires ran was
> totally
> compacted, etc. <<
>
> Hell, they don't even do that on the roads around here. A few years
> ago, they town and county got together and built Indepence Blvd., a
> road to divert heavy truck traffic from downtown Bedford (don't giggle
> here or they'll come getcha). Nice road, couple miles long connecting
> two main drags, sort of. A light at each end. At the end closest to my
> house (10 miles away, the other is twelve), it took about two months
> for depressions to show at the tire positions at the light. WIthin
> about six or eight months, those depressions were at least six inches
> deep.
>
> I'd bet that the guy who contracted that road did my driveway. He's
> also probably the bidding winner on some county roads where there were
> nearly a dozen asphalt separations in a 10 or 15 mile stretch--these
> splits were noticeable because they ranged in size from three to 30
> feet long and happened within days of rolling the asphalt. I believe
> several of them happened as the roller passed the spot, while steam was
> still rising.
>
> In rising 28 years in this county, I have not once seen a decent
> professional road job done. Every one requires repairs.
>
> Of course, for those that don't need repairs, we find that the county
> at long last has decided to bring water and sewage service to the area,
> so they get torn up the next spring anyway. Of course, that only
> happens for businesses. The rest of us get to continue with wells and
> septic systems.
>
Something else to consider is taxes. I seem to recall, with no details,
somewhere I lived that taxed concrete driveways but didn't do so for
asphalt. Don't recall why or where, just one of those annoying semi
memories.
Joe
Lew Hodgett <[email protected]> wrote:
>Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
>> Where do you live that it will only last 20 years?
>
>That comment was based on living far too many years in the "rust belt",
>AKA: Northern Ohio.
>
>You would be amazed what road salt, brought in by a vehicle, can do to a
>concrete driveway, especially if you leave your car outside for the winter.
We have tons of road salt slung on the roads in the UK and concrete
roads last for decades. Most of the problems you have over there are
probably ground heave caused by frost.
--
"George Gibeau" Said We are looking into getting our driveway paved.
snip
> I was wondering what the pros and cons are of blacktop-vs-concrete.
snip
George,
Concrete. All other options are cost or apperance.
Dave
Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
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>If done right, the concrete is good for at least 20 years, pick a number
>for the black top.
>
>How long to you plan to live there?
>
>Lew
=========================
Important question....
I had my Asphalt driveway installed in 1970 and it is now
cracking bad enough to have me thinking about having it
fixed.."capped" , dug up and replaced, or just forgetting about it....
and letting it revert to gravel in another 5 years....
Never coated this drive to make it look pretty but weekly visits from
the BIG & Heavy Schwann Ice Cream truck and lots of visits from the
BIG & Heavy Propane truck have over the years left their mark...
Concrete should last much longer then 20 years....I got 30 good years
out of my Asphalt drive ... Not Complaining... I like Ice Cream and I
kind of like to work in a warm shop...
Bob Griffiths
wow...long thread here (lumber is getting expensive I guess)...
Your update about location points to concrete. However in a cold climate
with lots of snow, I have had both and would never consider concrete again.
Clear the snow off blacktop after a snow storm and it will "burn-off" very
quickly (due to the black color I think). Snow on concrete will turn to ice
and you might get rid of it in May if you are lucky. I would never go for
less than a 3-4" thickness on asphalt though; anything less and all the
maintenance problems arise. Thick enough and professionally done, you don't
have to touch it ever (in fact a very reputable outfit on my previous house
told me if I sealed it he would void the warranty...maybe he was kidding but
I never did).
"Joe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:JasXd.71810$uc.30308@trnddc08...
> IMHO the question about which is better should also be asked at a home
> improvement / construction newsgroup as well as at my favorite newsgroup
> for "frugal" stuff:
>
> misc.consumers.frugal-living
>
> Joe - V#8013 - '86 VN750 - joe @ yunx .com
> Northern, NJ
> Ride a Motorcycle? Ask me about "The Ride"
> http://www.youthelate.com/the_ride.htm
>
> Born once - Die twice. Born twice - Die only once. Your choice...
>
> Have unwanted music CDs or DVDs of any type? I can use them for our
> charity. eMail me privately for details. Donation receipts available.
>
> Know someone with a motorcycle in the NY Metro area?
> http://host.mynocdns.com/mailman/listinfo/enjoyliferides_yunx.com
>
>
> "George Gibeau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Thanks for all the great comments to my original post. A few more
>> tidbits;
>>
>> Location - Southwest Missouri
>>
>> Driveway is relatively flat - no hill, very, very small incline.
>>
>> Thanks again,
>>
>> George
>>
>>
>>
>
>
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> If done right, the concrete is good for at least 20 years, pick a number
> for the black top.
Where do you live that it will only last 20 years? There are acres of
concrete in the cities that is will over 50 years and still doing just fine
and will probably another 50 or more.
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> Where do you live that it will only last 20 years?
That comment was based on living far too many years in the "rust belt",
AKA: Northern Ohio.
You would be amazed what road salt, brought in by a vehicle, can do to a
concrete driveway, especially if you leave your car outside for the winter.
Lew
Sorry if I misled you all here. I was talking about exposed aggregate in
Southern In. If you don't coat it with CURE-N-SEAL or equivalent.......you
will walk out one morning and have a gravel drive.;-). They load the roads
down with salt for the two or three big snows we get and it all falls off
the vehicle onto the drive. Forget about washing said vehicle cuz I am on
call 24 hours and it will get dirty again in a few hours. I like some of the
rest did not know the whereabouts of the OP.
Cheers, Wish him/her the best of luck
Lyndell
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Lyndell Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > 4. Concrete will require a sealing coat every two years or so for
maximum
> > life.
>
> What???????? In my 59 years, I've yet to see anyone seal their sidewalk
or
> drive and some go back to 50 years before my time.
>
>
"Will" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>>>If done right, the concrete is good for at least 20 years, pick a number
>>>for the black top.
>>
>>
>> Where do you live that it will only last 20 years? There are acres of
>> concrete in the cities that is will over 50 years and still doing just
>> fine and will probably another 50 or more.
>
> Not to mention all those roman aqueducts , bridges and coliseums. A little
> tatty after a couple of thousand years -- but still...
>
>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Will
> Occasional Techno-geek
Lots of broken driveways, walkways and patios in the Bay Area, many within
20 years. Combination of poor workmanship and cheap material, expansive soil
and earthquakes. I've also seen concrete cracked within couple of days due
to contractor cutting too many corners.
Now if we had those Roman contractors our driveways would still be in good
condition after 2,000 years.
IMHO the question about which is better should also be asked at a home
improvement / construction newsgroup as well as at my favorite newsgroup for
"frugal" stuff:
misc.consumers.frugal-living
Joe - V#8013 - '86 VN750 - joe @ yunx .com
Northern, NJ
Ride a Motorcycle? Ask me about "The Ride"
http://www.youthelate.com/the_ride.htm
Born once - Die twice. Born twice - Die only once. Your choice...
Have unwanted music CDs or DVDs of any type? I can use them for our
charity. eMail me privately for details. Donation receipts available.
Know someone with a motorcycle in the NY Metro area?
http://host.mynocdns.com/mailman/listinfo/enjoyliferides_yunx.com
"George Gibeau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thanks for all the great comments to my original post. A few more
> tidbits;
>
> Location - Southwest Missouri
>
> Driveway is relatively flat - no hill, very, very small incline.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> George
>
>
>
George Gibeau wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> We are looking into getting our driveway paved - it is currently chat (it
> runs to our house and connects with my shop - so there is my woodworking
> tie-in ;-)), and I was wondering what the pros and cons are of
> blacktop-vs-concrete.
COST:
Compared to concrete, black top is dirt cheap.
If you lay concrete, you need to provide some compacted fill to insure
drainage, at leat 6" of concrete complete with mesh (Looks like fencing).
If done right, the concrete is good for at least 20 years, pick a number
for the black top.
How long to you plan to live there?
Lew
"George Gibeau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greetings,
>
> I was wondering what the pros and cons are of blacktop-vs-concrete. I
> have a few quotes for blacktop, and it ranges from about $4900 for 2" of
> material vs $6100 for 3" of material (this includes all prep, grading,
> underlayment material, waste removal, etc. on ~ 4500 sq ft of surface).
> In the past, I believe it was true that concrete had an initial higher
> up-front cost, but involved less maintenance over the long run, however I
> am not sure if this is still true.
Well done concrete will last a hundred years or more with no maintenance.
My blacktop driveway was put in when the house was built 27 years ago.
While still in good shape, I've had to fill a couple of cracks. It is a
softer material and one summer day I drove the car up on ramps and it left
indents on it. People say you should apply sealer, but I've never bothered
as it seems to do little but add a black color and makes you sweat a lot
putting it on. There are houses built just after mine and they used a cheap
contractor. About half the houses have already replaced their blacktop.
Prep and material is important based on the differences I see.
IMO, concrete is much nicer looking. It is not as hot in the summer
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> If done right, the concrete is good for at least 20 years, pick a
>> number for the black top.
>
> Where do you live that it will only last 20 years? There are acres of
> concrete in the cities that is will over 50 years and still doing just
> fine and will probably another 50 or more.
>
>
No idea where the OP lives. That makes a difference.
In areas with seismic issues, or expansive soils, or drainage issues, or
tree roots, or other such conditions, even the best concrete work _may_
have to be redone. The economics of '25 years down the road' are pretty
meaningless in some cases.
Put in what you want to live with, and can afford. Be happy.
Patriarch,
owner of a paver driveway & patios.
"Lyndell Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> 4. Concrete will require a sealing coat every two years or so for maximum
> life.
What???????? In my 59 years, I've yet to see anyone seal their sidewalk or
drive and some go back to 50 years before my time.
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>If done right, the concrete is good for at least 20 years, pick a number
>>for the black top.
>
>
> Where do you live that it will only last 20 years? There are acres of
> concrete in the cities that is will over 50 years and still doing just fine
> and will probably another 50 or more.
Not to mention all those roman aqueducts , bridges and coliseums. A
little tatty after a couple of thousand years -- but still...
>
>
--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
No matter how you cook it, blacktop will grow ruts and holes from where =
you park or drive.
I've had both and concrete is better even if it is 2-3 times more =
expensive.
Preparation is key:
1. 6-8 inches of compacted "B" gravel.
2. 6 inches of class "B" well aerated concrete
3. Rebar to keep sections from riding up/down with the weather.
4. Fencing (cannot remember the correct appellation) for strength.
Properly laid, it will not even spall.
--=20
PDQ
--
=20
"George Gibeau" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
| Greetings,
|=20
| We are looking into getting our driveway paved - it is currently chat =
(it=20
| runs to our house and connects with my shop - so there is my =
woodworking=20
| tie-in ;-)), and I was wondering what the pros and cons are of=20
| blacktop-vs-concrete. I have a few quotes for blacktop, and it =
ranges from=20
| about $4900 for 2" of material vs $6100 for 3" of material (this =
includes=20
| all prep, grading, underlayment material, waste removal, etc. on ~ =
4500 sq=20
| ft of surface). In the past, I believe it was true that concrete had =
an=20
| initial higher up-front cost, but involved less maintenance over the =
long=20
| run, however I am not sure if this is still true. I am waiting for =
the=20
| concrete guy to stop by and give a quote - but thought I would pose =
the=20
| question here as to the benefits of either for those of you that may =
have=20
| had this done recently.
|=20
| Thanks in advance.
|=20
| George=20
|=20
|
Thankyou... the voice of sanity. I'm no expert but as resident of the 45th
parallel, climate makes all the difference in expected lifespan of either
type of driveway. I can't think of a single home in my community with a
concrete driveway. I *have to* attibute that to the harsh climate.
(with the notable exception of an airforce base down the road, but the DOD
can probably spring for 14" thick runway)
I just don't think you can answer the OP's question without factoring in
geography.
Steve
"Patriarch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> >
> > "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>
> >> If done right, the concrete is good for at least 20 years, pick a
> >> number for the black top.
> >
> > Where do you live that it will only last 20 years? There are acres of
> > concrete in the cities that is will over 50 years and still doing just
> > fine and will probably another 50 or more.
> >
> >
>
> No idea where the OP lives. That makes a difference.
>
> In areas with seismic issues, or expansive soils, or drainage issues, or
> tree roots, or other such conditions, even the best concrete work _may_
> have to be redone. The economics of '25 years down the road' are pretty
> meaningless in some cases.
>
> Put in what you want to live with, and can afford. Be happy.
>
> Patriarch,
> owner of a paver driveway & patios.
> It'd be a *WRONG* attribution, though. :)
Why? Can you offer another reason almost nobody in Clinton County, NY
(Bordering VT and Canada) uses concrete?
> In virtually any climate, *properly*installed* portland cement concrete
will
> 'significantly' outlast properly installed 'blacktop' (technically
"asphaltic
> concrete", BTW).
Much snippage.
Bob, I did not intend to imply that concrete was not longer lasting. I'm
sure that it is. What I did mean was that without factoring in climate, you
could not make *specific* age predictions about either asphalt or concrete.
Without specific (regional) age predictions, how can you asess whether the
upgrade to concrete is cost-effective in the long run?
-Steve
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 03:12:45 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Well done concrete will last a hundred years or more with no maintenance.
Unless you live in an area where you need to use ice-melt on it. All
the sidewalks around our church are spalling badly thanks to the
action of the ice-melt, but I don't really see any good option to
remove the ice before all the little old ladies get there on Sunday
morning. I'm certainly not going to stand out there and try to chip
it off of 5-6 hundred feet of 4' sidewalk before church!
Under the conditions here, with the use of ice-melt, I would say that
concrete will last anywhere from 10-50 years. Asphalt may actually
last longer if you have to use a lot of ice-melt. This summer I'm
going to look into some sort of sealer that will hopefully keep the
concrete in better condition.
--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
CLIP
> I would never go for less than a 3-4" thickness on asphalt though;
> anything less and all the maintenance problems arise. Thick enough and
> professionally done, you don't have to touch it ever (in fact a very
> reputable outfit on my previous house told me if I sealed it he would void
> the warranty...maybe he was kidding but I never did).
Agreed. I think that if I had a driveway that needed a new surface, and I
planned on living there for a long period of time, I'd go for a 5-6" thick
blacktop surface with a good under layer system. Maybe even go with crushed
stone for a few years until I knew the spots where the tires ran was totally
compacted, etc.
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
http://www.autodrill.com
http://www.multi-drill.com
V8013
Know someone with a motorcycle in the NY Metro area?
http://host.mynocdns.com/mailman/listinfo/enjoyliferides_yunx.com
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 10:22:34 -0500, Bob G.
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Never coated this drive to make it look pretty but weekly visits from
>the BIG & Heavy Schwann Ice Cream truck and lots of visits from the
>BIG & Heavy Propane truck have over the years left their mark...
If the Schwan's truck visited me every week I'd be worrying about the
BIG and heavy *me*!
--
"We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> One thing to consider in addition to what others have stated: If you
> live in a very warm climate, asphalt has a tendency to stick to shoes and
> get tracked into the house and onto carpets. Concrete stays in the
> driveway, period.
Yeah, Living in SE Texas I thought asphalt was a messy and temporary way to
go.
In article <[email protected]>,
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote:
> What???????? In my 59 years, I've yet to see anyone seal their sidewalk or
> drive and some go back to 50 years before my time.
Agreed - What??????? In our town the guys who poured the sidewalks often
impressed symbols and the year of pouring. In front of my house is
"1918" and others nearby are "1912". I've never seen anyone out there
doing anything other than pressure washing the mold and moss off after
our rainy winters. These walks look great and certainly don't appear to
have suffered from neglect.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long
In article <[email protected]>,
"Lyndell Thompson" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sorry if I misled you all here. I was talking about exposed aggregate in
> Southern In. If you don't coat it with CURE-N-SEAL or equivalent.......you
> will walk out one morning and have a gravel drive.;-). They load the roads
> down with salt for the two or three big snows we get and it all falls off
> the vehicle onto the drive. Forget about washing said vehicle cuz I am on
> call 24 hours and it will get dirty again in a few hours. I like some of the
> rest did not know the whereabouts of the OP.
Thanks for the reminder that my egocentricity got the best of me in my
reply as well. They don't use salt in my part of Oregon - mainly because
we don't get much if any snow - gravel as traction device but no salt. I
can certainly see the shortened longevity to concrete when salt is used
regularly.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
____
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the
Corporate States of America and to the
Republicans for which it stands, one nation,
under debt, easily divisible, with liberty
and justice for oil."
- Wiley Miller, Non Sequitur, 1/24/05
"Bob G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Concrete should last much longer then 20 years....I got 30 good years
> out of my Asphalt drive ... Not Complaining... I like Ice Cream and I
> kind of like to work in a warm shop...
Indefinitely actually. I moved to Houston in 1974 and was amazed that 90%
of all streets and freeways are made from concrete. They are still here
with 500,000 cars going over one portion of a concrete freeway daily.
"George Gibeau" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> We are looking into getting our driveway paved - it is currently chat (it
> runs to our house and connects with my shop - so there is my woodworking
> tie-in ;-)), and I was wondering what the pros and cons are of
> blacktop-vs-concrete.
I did paving stones. I had a contractor do the prep work of excavating and
putting in the gravel foundation, and had several palettes of 6" x 9"
pavers (about 700 sq ft worth) delivered to my yard. I laid the pavers
myself in a herringbone pattern, edged with 6" x 6" blocks on the edges.
The fun part was cutting miters in the edging blocks at the corners, and
where the sidewalk meets the driveway at an oblique angle; did all that
with a diamond blade in one of those $99 Makita portable table-top saws.
It was a lot of work, and cost a bit more than asphalt, but it really looks
beautiful.
On Mon, 7 Mar 2005 20:51:36 -0600, "George Gibeau" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Greetings,
>
>We are looking into getting our driveway paved - it is currently chat (it
>runs to our house and connects with my shop - so there is my woodworking
>tie-in ;-)), and I was wondering what the pros and cons are of
>blacktop-vs-concrete. I have a few quotes for blacktop, and it ranges from
>about $4900 for 2" of material vs $6100 for 3" of material (this includes
>all prep, grading, underlayment material, waste removal, etc. on ~ 4500 sq
>ft of surface). In the past, I believe it was true that concrete had an
>initial higher up-front cost, but involved less maintenance over the long
>run, however I am not sure if this is still true. I am waiting for the
>concrete guy to stop by and give a quote - but thought I would pose the
>question here as to the benefits of either for those of you that may have
>had this done recently.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>George
>
One thing to consider in addition to what others have stated: If you
live in a very warm climate, asphalt has a tendency to stick to shoes and
get tracked into the house and onto carpets. Concrete stays in the
driveway, period.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
The absence of accidents does not mean the presence of safety
Army General Richard Cody
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
=20
"Al Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
| Concrete if done right will outlast any blacktop, bar none. You are =
looking=20
| at 56 cubic yards of concrete (3 1/2" thick) which will cost more then =
| blackstuff but will last over 100 years and no maintenance. Well, =
wash it=20
| off once in a while.
If all you want is a sidewalk, 3 1/2" is sufficient. =20
If you want to drive a vehicle over it, better get 6" so the weight of =
the vehicle will not cause the concrete to break.
|=20
| If the ground is firm and has no settling, you won't need rebar or =
wiremesh,=20
| BUT you do need expansion joints and control joints every 12' in both=20
| directions to control any cracking from expansion and contraction. =
Also you=20
| will want a 5 sack mix (5 bags of cement per cy of mix). Some =
contractors=20
| use 4 sack mix which loses strength in time and will crack more. More =
money=20
| for them! A good respectable contractor can give you all the info =
you=20
| need. Check out his other jobs and see what his customers say about =
the=20
| work.
4 sack/5 sack --- just get the ready-mix folk to pour "Class B" well air =
entrained, low slump concrete. Class B gives 5000 psi load bearing. =
Some say the with 6" one does not need mesh -- BS. If you are going to =
drive over it or park on it, the mesh at 3" keeps the concrete up where =
it belongs. =20
If one does not have rebar one gets weather related shifting of the =
slabs relative to each other (think freeze/thaw) which is most evident =
at the expansion joints. For best results, the rebar should span the =
expansion joints so that the slabs stay even with each other.
I was on site for my main driveway and got what I wanted. I was away =
when the side pad was poured and did not get the rebar (cheap labor??). =
As a result, my side pad heaves 1-2" while my main driveway does not.=20
It is said by many, including the better contractors, that the expansion =
joints should cause the slabs to be no bigger than 10' X 10'. I agree.=20
=20
|=20
| Good luck,
| Al in WA
|=20
| "George Gibeau" <[email protected]> wrote in message=20
| news:[email protected]...
| > Greetings,
| >
| > We are looking into getting our driveway paved - it is currently =
chat (it=20
| > runs to our house and connects with my shop - so there is my =
woodworking=20
| > tie-in ;-)), and I was wondering what the pros and cons are of=20
| > blacktop-vs-concrete. I have a few quotes for blacktop, and it =
ranges=20
| > from about $4900 for 2" of material vs $6100 for 3" of material =
(this=20
| > includes all prep, grading, underlayment material, waste removal, =
etc. on=20
| > ~ 4500 sq ft of surface). In the past, I believe it was true that=20
| > concrete had an initial higher up-front cost, but involved less=20
| > maintenance over the long run, however I am not sure if this is =
still=20
| > true. I am waiting for the concrete guy to stop by and give a quote =
- but=20
| > thought I would pose the question here as to the benefits of either =
for=20
| > those of you that may have had this done recently.
| >
| > Thanks in advance.
| >
| > George
| >=20
|=20
|=20
--=20
PDQ
--
> Agreed - What??????? In our town the guys who poured the sidewalks often
> impressed symbols and the year of pouring. In front of my house is
> "1918" and others nearby are "1912". I've never seen anyone out there
> doing anything other than pressure washing the mold and moss off after
> our rainy winters. These walks look great and certainly don't appear to
> have suffered from neglect.
The poster might be referring to black colored driveway sealant to give the
driveway that "standard" blacktop look...
--
Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
http://www.autodrill.com
http://www.multi-drill.com
V8013
Know someone with a motorcycle in the NY Metro area?
http://host.mynocdns.com/mailman/listinfo/enjoyliferides_yunx.com
Concrete if done right will outlast any blacktop, bar none. You are looking
at 56 cubic yards of concrete (3 1/2" thick) which will cost more then
blackstuff but will last over 100 years and no maintenance. Well, wash it
off once in a while.
If the ground is firm and has no settling, you won't need rebar or wiremesh,
BUT you do need expansion joints and control joints every 12' in both
directions to control any cracking from expansion and contraction. Also you
will want a 5 sack mix (5 bags of cement per cy of mix). Some contractors
use 4 sack mix which loses strength in time and will crack more. More money
for them! A good respectable contractor can give you all the info you
need. Check out his other jobs and see what his customers say about the
work.
Good luck,
Al in WA
"George Gibeau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Greetings,
>
> We are looking into getting our driveway paved - it is currently chat (it
> runs to our house and connects with my shop - so there is my woodworking
> tie-in ;-)), and I was wondering what the pros and cons are of
> blacktop-vs-concrete. I have a few quotes for blacktop, and it ranges
> from about $4900 for 2" of material vs $6100 for 3" of material (this
> includes all prep, grading, underlayment material, waste removal, etc. on
> ~ 4500 sq ft of surface). In the past, I believe it was true that
> concrete had an initial higher up-front cost, but involved less
> maintenance over the long run, however I am not sure if this is still
> true. I am waiting for the concrete guy to stop by and give a quote - but
> thought I would pose the question here as to the benefits of either for
> those of you that may have had this done recently.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> George
>