I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
time, guarenteed.
I know plywood isn't a whole lot more expensive, but these are just
going to be shop cabinets, nothing fancy. I'd rather spend the extra
$$$ on a new toy, (you know, tools).
Has anybody had any mold problems with melamine molding in their
basements?
Rob
I'm in chicago also. I can't imagine them molding unless there was a
real water problem. But I would go with the plywood anyway. I think
it's easier to work with and more durable, even though it's lighter.
Particle board likes to crumble also. And I don't like how it takes
screws. I use melamine for the tops of utility shop cabinets I make,
but the rest of the box is plywood.
Melamine board cleans up pretty easily with some water and a sponge,
add a little bleach as a mold killer. .
If you have humidity problems run a dehumidifier. I have to run one
all winter or everything in the house winds up damp. If you have a
serious mold problem I would hate to see the guts of some of your
tools.
You can also seal any cut edges before assembly.
"RobW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
> wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
> cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
> problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
> he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
> time, guarenteed.
>
> I know plywood isn't a whole lot more expensive, but these are just
> going to be shop cabinets, nothing fancy. I'd rather spend the extra
> $$$ on a new toy, (you know, tools).
>
> Has anybody had any mold problems with melamine molding in their
> basements?
>
Not I. but mine's dry. RH is high in summer (~80%), but doesn't seem to
have an adverse effect.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "RobW"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
>>wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
>>cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
>>problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
>>he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
>>time, guarenteed.
>
> That's hogwash. Mold and mildew need moisture to grow. Anything that gets
> moist, and stays that way for an extended time, will develop mold or
> mildew.
> Anything that stays dry, won't.
>
So mold doesn't grow on dry bread?
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I think the problem is that MDF and other 'engineered' products have
> an affinity for moisture. I don't believe it's the glue, but the
> broken fibres in the product that absorb water molecules from the air
> and hold them like a sponge. As seen in this photo, mold is growing
> on a router jig in my garage. Above ground, absolutely never been
> 'wet'. But there it is...
>
> http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/moldy_mdf.jpg
>
I think you and Doug might well spend some time reading about cellulose
adsorbing (that's the proper spelling) moisture from the air. It is pretty
much the same as the sugar in the bowl getting crusty, because cellulose is
formed from sugars (and starches in bread). It's why and how _all_ wood
moves.
Depending on the type of mold, of course, very little moisture may be
required. Mold grows in the desert. If there's nourishment available,
there's almost always something that will consume it. Whether by design or
accident.
At 85% RH, the EMC of wood (cellulose) shows ~18% by weight. Too low for
spalt, but certainly high enough for mildew (`70%RH).
http://www.epa.gov/iaq/largebldgs/graphics/appenc.pdf
From your pictures, you have black mildew, which will grow on concrete, on
gypsum, grout and many other substrates. I'm betting that the
urea-formaldehyde glues used are not particularly appetizing, even if the
formaldehyde has fully outgassed.
"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>From your pictures, you have black mildew, which will grow on concrete, on
>>gypsum, grout and many other substrates. I'm betting that the
>>urea-formaldehyde glues used are not particularly appetizing, even if the
>>formaldehyde has fully outgassed.
>
> My only observation was that, around here, it does 'grow' on MDF much
> more readily than say, plywood or solid oak. And that is isn't the
> glue it's feeding upon, but the fibers (or if you prefer, cellulose).
> And that is doesn't have to be 'wet', only that it has to be exposed
> to humidity.
>
> I wasn't talking about paint, or shellac, or varnish or lacquer, but
> plain old MDF. Painted or varnished, it's no longer the MDF but the
> coating that is exposed to the humidity, so of course it will be more
> difficult for mold to 'grow'.
Wrong again. It will grow _anywhere_ because it does not depend on the
substrate for nutrition. Without knowing your particular circumstances, I
would guess that you have placed the stuff near a wall where there is no
circulation to reduce the RH, and plenty of that supplied by a cold wall.
You could have painted the wall or the board with the same result.
Sorry you don't want to learn about mold. Why ask the question if you're
not interested in the answer?
George said:
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>>From your pictures, you have black mildew, which will grow on concrete, on
>>>gypsum, grout and many other substrates. I'm betting that the
>>>urea-formaldehyde glues used are not particularly appetizing, even if the
>>>formaldehyde has fully outgassed.
>>
>> My only observation was that, around here, it does 'grow' on MDF much
>> more readily than say, plywood or solid oak. And that is isn't the
>> glue it's feeding upon, but the fibers (or if you prefer, cellulose).
>> And that is doesn't have to be 'wet', only that it has to be exposed
>> to humidity.
>>
>> I wasn't talking about paint, or shellac, or varnish or lacquer, but
>> plain old MDF. Painted or varnished, it's no longer the MDF but the
>> coating that is exposed to the humidity, so of course it will be more
>> difficult for mold to 'grow'.
>
>Wrong again. It will grow _anywhere_ because it does not depend on the
>substrate for nutrition. Without knowing your particular circumstances, I
>would guess that you have placed the stuff near a wall where there is no
>circulation to reduce the RH, and plenty of that supplied by a cold wall.
>You could have painted the wall or the board with the same result.
Again, I never said it wouldn't grow. I said it grew more readily.
Bare MDF adsorbs moisture and present a more appealing moist surface
for it to grow on. Which probably explains why the formica doesn't
have anything growing on it, but the bare MDF does. And while it may
not depend on cellulose for nutrition, it certainly doesn't hurt.
>Sorry you don't want to learn about mold. Why ask the question if you're
>not interested in the answer?
Again, I'm not the original poster. Re-read the thread... ;-)
Greg G.
Rob,
I'm in Chicago also, and have had melamine cabs in the basement and
garage for over 15 years with absolutely no mold/mildew. My basement is
dry and I installed the basic white cabinets from the Borg, nothing
fancy and a lot quicker than making them.
RobW wrote:
> I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
> wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
> cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
> problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
> he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
> time, guarenteed.
>
> I know plywood isn't a whole lot more expensive, but these are just
> going to be shop cabinets, nothing fancy. I'd rather spend the extra
> $$$ on a new toy, (you know, tools).
>
> Has anybody had any mold problems with melamine molding in their
> basements?
>
> Rob
>
In article <[email protected]>, "George" <George@least> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "RobW"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
>>>wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
>>>cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
>>>problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
>>>he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
>>>time, guarenteed.
>>
>> That's hogwash. Mold and mildew need moisture to grow. Anything that gets
>> moist, and stays that way for an extended time, will develop mold or
>> mildew.
>> Anything that stays dry, won't.
>>
>So mold doesn't grow on dry bread?
Nope. Not if it *stays* dry. Of course, there's a *lot* of moisture in bread,
and it will absorb moisture from the air pretty readily, too.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
The "Pro?cabinetmaker" is right, but not being honest. ANYTHING will mold in
a damp basement. but nothing to do with melamine/mdf/particle
board........................
"RobW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
> wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
> cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
> problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
> he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
> time, guarenteed.
>
> I know plywood isn't a whole lot more expensive, but these are just
> going to be shop cabinets, nothing fancy. I'd rather spend the extra
> $$$ on a new toy, (you know, tools).
>
> Has anybody had any mold problems with melamine molding in their
> basements?
>
> Rob
>
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>Doug Miller said:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, "RobW"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
>>>wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
>>>cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
>>>problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
>>>he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
>>>time, guarenteed.
>>
>>That's hogwash. Mold and mildew need moisture to grow. Anything that gets
>>moist, and stays that way for an extended time, will develop mold or mildew.
>>Anything that stays dry, won't.
>
>I think the problem is that MDF and other 'engineered' products have
>an affinity for moisture. I don't believe it's the glue, but the
>broken fibres in the product that absorb water molecules from the air
>and hold them like a sponge. As seen in this photo, mold is growing
>on a router jig in my garage. Above ground, absolutely never been
>'wet'. But there it is...
>
>http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/moldy_mdf.jpg
Yeah, well... unless you live in Arizona, your garage is likely to be a pretty
humid place much of the year... and that MDF doesn't look like it's been
finished with anything waterproof, either. Do you suppose that's how the
mildew got started?
Like I said... anything that _stays_dry_ won't mildew. Unfinished MDF stored
in a garage is not in the category of things that "stay dry".
>
>Finished basement is the same way. Absolutely dry - but there it is.
>Anything that can absorb water, molds.
That's why it's important to seal surfaces against the entry of water.
> In other words, if you can put
>a drop of water on a surface and it is absorbed, mold will grow in
>humid conditions - whether it is "wet" or not - it aggregates in the
>material in sufficient quantities to promote the growth of mold.
That's why it's important to seal surfaces against the entry of water.
>All
>it needs now is a food source, and the paper or wood works just fine.
That's why it's important to seal surfaces against the entry of water.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
I buy mahogany for two bucks a board foot (cheaper than pine and poplar!)
and I'm making my own shop cabinets, raised panel fronts and all. SWMBO
says the shop cabinets are nicer than the kitchen units and when am I going
to swap with her?
"RobW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
> wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
> cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
> problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
> he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
> time, guarenteed.
>
> I know plywood isn't a whole lot more expensive, but these are just
> going to be shop cabinets, nothing fancy. I'd rather spend the extra
> $$$ on a new toy, (you know, tools).
>
> Has anybody had any mold problems with melamine molding in their
> basements?
>
> Rob
>
George said:
>"Greg G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> I think the problem is that MDF and other 'engineered' products have
>> an affinity for moisture. I don't believe it's the glue, but the
>> broken fibres in the product that absorb water molecules from the air
>> and hold them like a sponge. As seen in this photo, mold is growing
>> on a router jig in my garage. Above ground, absolutely never been
>> 'wet'. But there it is...
>>
>> http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/moldy_mdf.jpg
>>
>
>I think you and Doug might well spend some time reading about cellulose
>adsorbing (that's the proper spelling) moisture from the air. It is pretty
>much the same as the sugar in the bowl getting crusty, because cellulose is
>formed from sugars (and starches in bread). It's why and how _all_ wood
>moves.
Excuse the typo. :-p
But Really, I don't want to know anything more about mold. ;-)
I wasn't the OP. I do know is that it lives on everything - glass,
rocks, vinyl, sheetrock, paint, concrete, steel, you name it. The fuel
from your breath is enough to start a patch. Our air is so full of
organic and inorganic crap that it can probably live anywhere.
>Depending on the type of mold, of course, very little moisture may be
>required. Mold grows in the desert. If there's nourishment available,
>there's almost always something that will consume it. Whether by design or
>accident.
Intelligent design, perhaps? ;-)
>At 85% RH, the EMC of wood (cellulose) shows ~18% by weight. Too low for
>spalt, but certainly high enough for mildew (`70%RH).
>http://www.epa.gov/iaq/largebldgs/graphics/appenc.pdf
>From your pictures, you have black mildew, which will grow on concrete, on
>gypsum, grout and many other substrates. I'm betting that the
>urea-formaldehyde glues used are not particularly appetizing, even if the
>formaldehyde has fully outgassed.
My only observation was that, around here, it does 'grow' on MDF much
more readily than say, plywood or solid oak. And that is isn't the
glue it's feeding upon, but the fibers (or if you prefer, cellulose).
And that is doesn't have to be 'wet', only that it has to be exposed
to humidity.
I wasn't talking about paint, or shellac, or varnish or lacquer, but
plain old MDF. Painted or varnished, it's no longer the MDF but the
coating that is exposed to the humidity, so of course it will be more
difficult for mold to 'grow'.
This is turning into another "Exploding Dust Collector" thread... :-o
Arghhh...
Greg G.
Those cabinets are typically used in kitchens and bathrooms where
there's lots of moisture. How often do you see mold growing
actively on melamine surfaces in those wet environments?
RobW wrote:
> I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
> wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
> cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
> problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
> he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
> time, guarenteed.
>
> I know plywood isn't a whole lot more expensive, but these are just
> going to be shop cabinets, nothing fancy. I'd rather spend the extra
> $$$ on a new toy, (you know, tools).
>
> Has anybody had any mold problems with melamine molding in their
> basements?
>
> Rob
>
On 28 Oct 2005 21:40:59 -0700, "RobW" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
>wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
>cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
>problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
>he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
>time, guarenteed.
Most (if not all) manufactured cabinets are certified for use below
grade. Many of those are made with some type of particle board or
melamine. If your basement is dry, I wouldn't be too concerned.
Mike O.
Doug Miller said:
>In article <[email protected]>, "RobW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
>>wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
>>cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
>>problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
>>he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
>>time, guarenteed.
>
>That's hogwash. Mold and mildew need moisture to grow. Anything that gets
>moist, and stays that way for an extended time, will develop mold or mildew.
>Anything that stays dry, won't.
I think the problem is that MDF and other 'engineered' products have
an affinity for moisture. I don't believe it's the glue, but the
broken fibres in the product that absorb water molecules from the air
and hold them like a sponge. As seen in this photo, mold is growing
on a router jig in my garage. Above ground, absolutely never been
'wet'. But there it is...
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/moldy_mdf.jpg
Finished basement is the same way. Absolutely dry - but there it is.
Anything that can absorb water, molds. In other words, if you can put
a drop of water on a surface and it is absorbed, mold will grow in
humid conditions - whether it is "wet" or not - it aggregates in the
material in sufficient quantities to promote the growth of mold. All
it needs now is a food source, and the paper or wood works just fine.
I believe the glues are probably non-reactive, however.
Greg G.
On Sat, 29 Oct 2005 10:34:42 -0400, "George" <George@least> wrote:
>
>"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, "RobW"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
>>>wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
>>>cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
>>>problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
>>>he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
>>>time, guarenteed.
>>
>> That's hogwash. Mold and mildew need moisture to grow. Anything that gets
>> moist, and stays that way for an extended time, will develop mold or
>> mildew.
>> Anything that stays dry, won't.
>>
>So mold doesn't grow on dry bread?
correct.
now where are you going to find dry bread that has been out of the
toaster for more than 5 minutes?
In article <[email protected]>, "RobW" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
>wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
>cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
>problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
>he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
>time, guarenteed.
That's hogwash. Mold and mildew need moisture to grow. Anything that gets
moist, and stays that way for an extended time, will develop mold or mildew.
Anything that stays dry, won't.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
RobW wrote:
> I have a shop in my basement (Chicago area) and am going to build some
> wall and base cabinets. My plan was to use melamine, but a pro
> cabinetmaker just told me that they will mold. I don't have any
> problem with water in my basement so far (house only 1 year old), but
> he said the glues used in melamine/mdf/particle board WILL mold in
> time, guarenteed.
>
> I know plywood isn't a whole lot more expensive, but these are just
> going to be shop cabinets, nothing fancy. I'd rather spend the extra
> $$$ on a new toy, (you know, tools).
>
> Has anybody had any mold problems with melamine molding in their
> basements?
>
> Rob
>
The chief engineer at the first job I had after graduating, asked me one
day, "Lew, can you tell me the difference between an oriental and an
occidental?"
Being the young smart ass that I was, I stalled for time trying to
figure our the question, not wanting to make a fool of myself.
Finally, the chief engineer must have figured he had made his point, and
he said, "It's simple, the occidental learns from his mistakes, the
oriental learns from the mistakes of others, it's cheaper."
Seems to fit here.
Lew