Radial arm saw versus 12" compund sliding miter saw question.

"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:28:49 -0700, the infamous "Max"
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>>"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Pete wrote:
>>>>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>>>>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>>>>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>>>>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>>>>> Thanks for your opinions.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do
>>>> on
>>>> a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado.
>>>
>>> Quite true as long as you dismiss planing, molding, routing, using a
>>> flex
>>> shaft, drilling, polishing, et.
>>
>>
>>So a Shopsmith might be even better?
>>(Except for the price)
>
> IMHSHO, discrete tools always beat the combos, especially if you need
> to do two different setups at a time. My buddy with the Shopsmith
> curses that he has to tear down one setup to do another one. Going
> from station to station is _always_ better, given room.

That was my point.

Max

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Pete wrote:
>>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>>> Thanks for your opinions.
>>
>> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do on
>> a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado.
>
> Quite true as long as you dismiss planing, molding, routing, using a flex
> shaft, drilling, polishing, et.


So a Shopsmith might be even better?
(Except for the price)

Max

Gordon Shumway <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> The one big reason I would not get rid of my RAS is for cross cutting
> dados in long pieces. There are several ways to accomplish this task
> without a RAS but I prefer the RAS. I doubt a SCMS could perform that
> task well or with repeatability.
>
> Gordon Shumway
>

Unless you were doing pieces on a regular basis, a router could handle
doing the dados over long pieces. Some of them even have a provision for a
fence to keep the router parallel to the reference edge.

Puckdropper

"Leon" wrote
>
> Check my reply to JClark below. You have to admit that that senerio
> could/eventually will cause harm to the saw. I too don't believe that a
> particular blade will absolutely do harm but it can increase the chance of
> doing harm.
>
Speaking of harm to a radial arm saw, I had a friend who kept a big RAS in
my garage for awhile. He needed to cut up some aluminum that he bought at a
salvage yard. Most of it was soft and the saw cut it easily. Then he ran
across an oddball peice that was extra hard.

He tried to pull it through the piece and it went up and over it. It bent
the arm up. After that, it cut a nice little curve upwards. If I had to do a
dado, it would curve up about 3/16' - 1/4' over nine inches. I had to cut
the dado from both sides and chisel out the high spot in the middle. That is
when I went to a router for my dadoes.

It is an extreme example, I know. But these saws can get damaged if you put
enough stress on it. That priciple applies to anything mechanical or
biological. The other lesson learned here, you can never tell exactly what
it is that you get at the salvage yard. That is the fun part for me. But I
would never cut aluminum on a RAS.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> dadiOH wrote:
>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>> But the stall happens after the blade has climbed up higher on the
>>>> cut. That will cause undue stress to something.
>>>
>>> Only if the "something" is not properly designed to withstand the
>>> "undue stress".
>>
>> No one can design anything to withstand every type of "undue stress"
>> caused by idiots or the ill informed. Look at computers...
>
> Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by idiots
> or
> the uninformed",

Uh, I thought we "were" talking about "idiot's" your word ;~) using the
wrong blade on a machine.

On Dec 6, 6:33=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > We drove up to Birmingham yesterday so I stopped by Woodcraft. =A0All o=
f
> > their Forrest blades had the good for: with pictures of a RAS, Cabinet
> > saw, SCMS, and all but one had a picture of a contractor's saw. =A0No
> > idea why a contractor's saw is any different than a cabinet saw,
> > but...
>
> May I suggest you go directly to the Forrest site?
>
> http://www.forrestblades.com/http://www.forrestblades.com/online_cata...
>
> You may have been looking at thin kerf blades. =A0Typically a contractors=
will
> cut faster with a thin kerf blade.
>
They don't want the blade to cut faster? The blade in question did
*not* have the contractor's saw pictured but did have a cabinet saw.
>
> >>Additionally because the RAS is typically going to be doing more cross
> >>cutting than ripping the WW1 has more teeth. =A0When there are more tee=
th
> >>during cross cutting you get a smoother cut.
>
> > Oh, good grief. =A0Do you always keep your rip blade on your table saw?
>
> I do not use a rip blade, at all. =A0I have always for the last 20 years =
=A0used
> a general purpose/combination blade for ALL cuts. =A0For the last 10 year=
s I
> have only used a Forrest WW2 regular kerf blade on my saw. =A0I have two.=
=A0I
> switch them out when I send the dull one out for resharpening.

I use a combination blade for ripping but usually a blade with a lot
more teeth for crosscuts. My point was that of course different
blades are used for different purposes, but that has nothing to do
with the discussion at hand. I'm not even arguing that a blade
designed for a RAS won't cut as well on a table saw (though I'm not
completely buying the difference between a RAS and SCMS). The point
that I'm arguing (against) is that somehow a blade designed for a
table saw will somehow "injure" a RAS. *THAT* is what I'm calling
bullshit.

On Dec 8, 2:55=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Steve Turner wrote:
> > Leon wrote:
>
> >> Festool is like "Crack". =A0Once you touch it you can't leave it alone=
. =A0
> >> ;~)
>
> >> I just tried out their 75mmCircular saw and track. =A0 Swaeeeeeeeeeet
>
> > Let go of the trigger and back away slowly from the Festool!
>
> Too late ... I was there, but he was hooked already.
>
> BTW, Leon would make a helluva drug dealer, now I'm hooked too!
>
> Just like I told my kids, be careful who you hang out with!

I just got the Festool Trion jigsaw in the mail today - took one cut,
checked out how easy it is to swap blades, cut square as can be,
systainer. Sheesh. The first one isn't free, but Festool is
definitely a drug. I'm beginning to understand why people buy the
older Festool catalogs on eBay.

Anyone want to buy my Dewalt jigsaw? Thing's like new. ;)

R

On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:24:35 -0600, Gordon Shumway
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 18:15:38 -0600, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I may replace my slider, though it would be another 10" so it uses the
>>same blades as my table saw. 12" blades are expen$ive, and I don't
>>cut anything thick enough to need it.
>
>The blade dia. is the only thing that is the same between a 10" CMS a
>10" table saw and even a 10" RAS. The same would also apply to other
>diameters. The hook angle of the blades are different for each saw.
>This is because of the way the blade moves in relation to the work or
>vice versa. Many people use the blades on the wrong saw and could
>injure their tools, their work or even themselves. Always use the
>blade designed for that specific saw on that saw only.

How is the blade going to "injure the tools"? I've looked at a lot of
blades and few say anything about the saw they're designed for. THe
ones that do tend to be cheaper blades for CMS saws.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>> Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by
>>> idiots or
>>> the uninformed",
>>
>> Uh, I thought we "were" talking about "idiot's" your word ;~) using
>> the wrong blade on a machine.
>
> In what post did I make this statement? Perhaps you have me confused with
> someone else?
>

You said,,

Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by idiots or
the uninformed",

in response to dadOH

I said that I thought that we were talking about someone using the wrong
blade on a tool, which would possibly cause undue stress.

On Dec 7, 1:53=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > dadiOH wrote:
> >> J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> Leon wrote:
> >>>> But the stall happens after the blade has climbed up higher on the
> >>>> cut. That will cause undue stress to something.
>
> >>> Only if the "something" is not properly designed to withstand the
> >>> "undue stress".
>
> >> No one can design anything to withstand every type of "undue stress"
> >> caused by idiots or the ill informed. =A0Look at computers...
>
> > Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by idiot=
s
> > or
> > the uninformed",
>
> Uh, I thought we "were" talking about "idiot's" =A0your word ;~) =A0using=
the
> wrong blade on a machine.

No, it's you who defends the ludicrous idea that blades cannot be
interchanged between saw types without "injuring" the iron.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>
> I'm not denying that one can stall an RAS. In fact I believe I stated
> that
> that was what would happen. However if it cannot withstand without
> damage
> any force that the motor can produce then it is a poorly designed piece of
> crap.


Yeah... and ... that might by why most RAS's have such a bad reputation, why
many are always out of calibration.

But the stall happens after the blade has climbed up higher on the cut.
That will cause undue stress to something.

"Pete" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ff5f472e-d010-4bcf-a9f4-d3a31e56b8ca@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
>I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
> Thanks for your opinions.


I started off with a RAS and built half the furniture in my house.

4 years later I bought a Craftsman contractors saw and IMEDIATELY quit using
the RAS.

5 years later I bought a 12" CMS to suppliment the TS

9 years later I upgraded my contractors to a cabinet saw.

Almost immediately I quit using my CMS.

I do all my of cutting on the 52" capacity cabinet saw.

[email protected] wrote:
> On Dec 6, 7:00 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>>> Depth of cut adjustment?
>>> Most major brand SCMS have a dept of cut adjustment so that the blade will
>>> only go down a predetermined distance.
>> Item 1.4 on this pdfhttp://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf
>
> Festool will do anything for a grand.
>
>> Page 7, stopper Armhttp://www.makita.com/en-us/Assets/Images/Products/LS1214L/owners_man...
>
> Intended to keep the blade out of the base (to prevent metal on metal
> - a handy thing), not as a dado depth adjustment. I know I'd I'd
> never trust dados on a SCMS.

Not in the case of Dewalt 718 as the base has a plastic insert and turns
as you change the miter angle so there's no chance of hitting a metal base.

Owner manual:
http://www.dewaltservicenet.com/documents/English/Instruction%20Manual/653515-00%20DW718.pdf

on page 9, column 3 refers to it as a "grooving stop" whose purpose is
to limit the depth of a groove. Multiple grooves stopped at the same
depth provide a dado.

~Mark.

Yeah, I hear you. I kept a RAS around for years taking up space for
just that purpose. Finally got rid of the darn thing and use a router
with jig to do cross-cut dados in long boards. A little slower but not
a big deal. I don't miss it at all and put the space to much better
use.. -Jim

Gordon Shumway wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:16:25 -0800 (PST), Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> That's why I asked the question would
>> I be losing anything by getting the scms. The only difference I see is
>> not being able to rip. I have other means to do the other things an
>> ras offers.
>> Thanks again for your opinions.
>
> The one big reason I would not get rid of my RAS is for cross cutting
> dados in long pieces. There are several ways to accomplish this task
> without a RAS but I prefer the RAS. I doubt a SCMS could perform that
> task well or with repeatability.
>
> Gordon Shumway
>
> Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
> for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

I might mention also that I built a second table saw crosscut sled
that's dedicated to crosscutting dados. Very handy sled. I've used it
many times for the same purpose I would have used a Radial arm saw.. -Jim

Jim Hall wrote:
> Yeah, I hear you. I kept a RAS around for years taking up space for
> just that purpose. Finally got rid of the darn thing and use a router
> with jig to do cross-cut dados in long boards. A little slower but not
> a big deal. I don't miss it at all and put the space to much better
> use.. -Jim
>
> Gordon Shumway wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:16:25 -0800 (PST), Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> That's why I asked the question would
>>> I be losing anything by getting the scms. The only difference I see is
>>> not being able to rip. I have other means to do the other things an
>>> ras offers.
>>> Thanks again for your opinions.
>>
>> The one big reason I would not get rid of my RAS is for cross cutting
>> dados in long pieces. There are several ways to accomplish this task
>> without a RAS but I prefer the RAS. I doubt a SCMS could perform that
>> task well or with repeatability.
>>
>> Gordon Shumway
>>
>> Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
>> for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

On Dec 7, 12:23=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > Only if the "something" is not properly designed to withstand the "undu=
e
> > stress".
>
> That comment reminds me of the short little story my college physics
> professor told us.
>
> The once was a wagon with no weakest points. =A0One day it disintegrated.
>
> I have never ever ever ever seen any thing build close to that wagon.

The corollary, which is more appropriate here, is that if anything can
be adjusted it needs to be. A RAS is nothing but a pile of
adjustments.

On Dec 7, 11:58=A0am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
> krw wrote:
> > Oh, good grief. =A0Do you always keep your rip blade on your table saw?
>
> Yes, as a matter of fact. =A0That's because 90% of what I do on it is
> ripping...that's what table saws were designed for.

That may be what they're best at but hardly all they were designed
for. I suppose yours doesn't have a miter slot either.

On Dec 3, 3:05=A0pm, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am trying to decide which one to buy.

You don't say if you have a TS. If you don't, I suspect the responses
would be different. LEON makes the point about dedicated blades
designed for the tool in play and that - as well as several other
thoughtful responses here is good advice.

The SCM Saws I've seen that seem sturdy and substantial enough cost as
much as many of the decent contractor table saws - hence, I've passed
and have a RAS and 12" Miter Saw built into a dedicated table and two
table saws (one small portable unit and a Sears Contractor).

The RAS sat for years in my small shop with barely any use - I finally
sold the dedicated steel rolling stand I'd built for it and it was
nearly three years before I finished the table it sits on now. So, not
much use at all.

Still, the ability to dado some 12" by 72" plywood to capture the
shorter "shelf pieces" is one task I'd rather do on the RAS than the
TS because I'll never have enough space to build a big table and out
feed for the Sears TS and I plan on building lots of shelving for the
new shop. I can fit an 18" wide board on my RAS and it can be 8 feet
long or more without tipping.

The 12" Miter Saw has come in handy building my shop - lots of 2x6
boards went into the structure as well as lots of angle cut studs. It
was great for building basic saw horses cutting bot angles at once for
nicely splayed legs.

But, If I didn't have my Table Saw, I'd not be doing much woodworking
at all.

"FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> On Dec 7, 2:23 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> No, it's you who defends the ludicrous idea that blades cannot be
>>> interchanged between saw types without "injuring" the iron.
>>>
>>> I'm sure you are right.
>>
>> I know I am. Please fix your newsreader.
>>
>>
>>
>> fix what?
> Not properly quoting the post you are responding to, it isn't offset by
> '>'
> or another generally accepted character.
>
> Note, just pointing it out, in my opinion your knowledge of the subject
> (woodworking) offsets this deficiency.
> ;-)


I was just poking the bee's nest again. ;~)

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Only if the "something" is not properly designed to withstand the "undue
> stress".

That comment reminds me of the short little story my college physics
professor told us.

The once was a wagon with no weakest points. One day it disintegrated.


I have never ever ever ever seen any thing build close to that wagon.

On Dec 7, 10:52=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:abf923b6-e35c-47a4-a8fd-06f097ddc18f@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
> On Dec 7, 9:56 am, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*[email protected]>
>
> I bet if you ran over a RAS with a tank it would bend the arm too.
> That's a bit different than the "wrong" blade "injuring the saw" which
> is still bullshit.
>
> Well Keith it is obvious that you have made up your mind. =A0Some =A0thin=
gs are
> simply hard to comprehend.

Yes, I've made my mind up to the obvious.

I will agree that some blades are better in (designed for) some tools,
producing superior results. Perhaps even that some designs may reduce
kick-back or climbing (perhaps reducing the possibility injury to the
operator). However, "injury" to the tool is just silly.

Do note that there are *MANY* blades that are specified to be used in
all like tools, so the original argument is a dumb one. It certainly
is possible to use the same blade on a RAS, table saw, and SCMS. Yes,
you folks have done a good job of convincing me that you're talking
bullshit.

BTW, please fix your newsreader's quoting.

"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> We drove up to Birmingham yesterday so I stopped by Woodcraft. All of
> their Forrest blades had the good for: with pictures of a RAS, Cabinet
> saw, SCMS, and all but one had a picture of a contractor's saw. No
> idea why a contractor's saw is any different than a cabinet saw,
> but...

May I suggest you go directly to the Forrest site?

http://www.forrestblades.com/http://www.forrestblades.com/online_catalog.htm

You may have been looking at thin kerf blades. Typically a contractors will
cut faster with a thin kerf blade.




>>
>>Additionally because the RAS is typically going to be doing more cross
>>cutting than ripping the WW1 has more teeth. When there are more teeth
>>during cross cutting you get a smoother cut.
>
> Oh, good grief. Do you always keep your rip blade on your table saw?

I do not use a rip blade, at all. I have always for the last 20 years used
a general purpose/combination blade for ALL cuts. For the last 10 years I
have only used a Forrest WW2 regular kerf blade on my saw. I have two. I
switch them out when I send the dull one out for resharpening.

CW wrote:
> "Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Pete wrote:
>>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>>> Thanks for your opinions.
>> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do on
>> a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado.
>
> Quite true as long as you dismiss planing, molding, routing, using a flex
> shaft, drilling, polishing, et.
>
>

Wow, maybe I should get a ShopSmith and lose my planer, jointer, router
table, drill press and sanders :-)

Now, be honest, have you used *all* those functions on your RAS?

I also suspect that a number of those (notably molding, sanding) can
likewise be performed on a tablesaw. And apparently you can also do
biscuit joining on a RAS as well:

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5193595/description.html

I guess to "refine" my response, if you're looking for a tool whose
primary/sole use is related to cross-cutting of wood either squarely or
at various angles, my preference would be a SCMS even if you wanted to
occasionally cut dadoes.

If I was looking for a multi-purpose tool, I would consider a ShopSmith
or better and be too timid to try molding/routing/planing on a RAS.

~Mark.

On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 08:10:12 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:24:35 -0600, Gordon Shumway
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> How is the blade going to "injure the tools"? I've looked at a lot of
>> blades and few say anything about the saw they're designed for. THe
>> ones that do tend to be cheaper blades for CMS saws.
>
>
>Actually the better quality blades, Forrest for instance, do in fact suggest
>speciffic blades for specific saws.
>
>WW 1 Best for RAS
>
>WW 2 Best for TS
>
>And then there is the Chop Master for the chop and miter saws.

We drove up to Birmingham yesterday so I stopped by Woodcraft. All of
their Forrest blades had the good for: with pictures of a RAS, Cabinet
saw, SCMS, and all but one had a picture of a contractor's saw. No
idea why a contractor's saw is any different than a cabinet saw,
but...
>
>Additionally because the RAS is typically going to be doing more cross
>cutting than ripping the WW1 has more teeth. When there are more teeth
>during cross cutting you get a smoother cut.

Oh, good grief. Do you always keep your rip blade on your table saw?


<snipped more of the moronic argument>

On Dec 7, 2:47=A0pm, Woody <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Dec 6, 7:00 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >>news:[email protected]...
>
> >> .
>
> >>>> Depth of cut adjustment?
> >>> Most major brand SCMS have a dept of cut adjustment so that the blade=
will
> >>> only go down a predetermined distance.
> >> Item 1.4 on this pdfhttp://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.p=
df
>
> > Festool will do anything for a grand.
>
> >> Page 7, stopper Armhttp://www.makita.com/en-us/Assets/Images/Products/=
LS1214L/owners_man...
>
> > Intended to keep the blade out of the base (to prevent metal on metal
> > - a handy thing), not as a dado depth adjustment. =A0I know I'd I'd
> > never trust dados on a SCMS.
>
> Not in the case of Dewalt 718 as the base has a plastic insert and turns
> as you change the miter angle so there's no chance of hitting a metal bas=
e.

The manual on the Makita referenced above indicated that the control
was for differing blade diameters rather than the miter angle
(adjusting the thing for every angle would be a PITA).

> Owner manual:http://www.dewaltservicenet.com/documents/English/Instructio=
n%20Manua...
>
> on page 9, column 3 refers to it as a "grooving stop" whose purpose is
> to limit the depth of a groove. Multiple grooves stopped at the same
> depth provide a dado.

I looked quickly at the DW717(?) but didn't see any mention of a depth
stop. I've never used a decent SCMS, so didn't know about such a
feature. I'd likely never use it, preferring either a table saw,
router, or RAS, in that order.

On Dec 4, 2:50=A0pm, Gordon Shumway <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:16:25 -0800 (PST), Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
> >That's why I asked the question would
> >I be losing anything by getting the scms. The only difference I see is
> >not being able to rip. I have other means to do the other things an
> >ras offers.

> The one big reason I would not get rid of my RAS is for cross cutting
> dados in long pieces.

Or, heavy pieces. SCMS is OK for 2x4 lumber, but a RAS can
make a 3" notch in a 8x8 beam.

I also use stubs of 2x10 to make wedges, by using the RAS to
make parallel straight cuts, then parallel slant cuts; there can be
30 'dadoes' in the plank when I'm done, and the wedges just
pop off with a chisel (or, if I'm in a hurry, a ripsaw). Can a SCMS
really do that kind of work?

----- Original Message -----
From: <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: Radial arm saw versus 12" compund sliding miter saw question.


On Dec 6, 7:00 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> .
>
> >> Depth of cut adjustment?
>
> > Most major brand SCMS have a dept of cut adjustment so that the blade
> > will
> > only go down a predetermined distance.
>
> Item 1.4 on this pdfhttp://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf

Festool will do anything for a grand.

This is not uncommon and just because Festool is exspensice does not
discredit the fact that many sliders have this feature.



> Page 7, stopper
> Armhttp://www.makita.com/en-us/Assets/Images/Products/LS1214L/owners_man...

Intended to keep the blade out of the base (to prevent metal on metal
- a handy thing), not as a dado depth adjustment. I know I'd I'd
never trust dados on a SCMS.

No, the stoper arm is for control of cut depth. Look again. There are two
boss locations. One is absolutely to limit the ultimate blade depth, the
swing out thumb screw adjustable bolt is for adjusting the depth of cut.

On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 19:00:24 -0600, the infamous "Leon"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>
>"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>.
>>>
>>> Depth of cut adjustment?
>>
>> Most major brand SCMS have a dept of cut adjustment so that the blade will
>> only go down a predetermined distance.
>
>
>Item 1.4 on this pdf
>http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf

First we had Chinglish. Get a load of this Germglish. Cute, but not
on a $700 chop saw, thanks. "Open the screws."


>Page 7, stopper Arm
>http://www.makita.com/en-us/Assets/Images/Products/LS1214L/owners_manuals/LS1214L_OM.pdf
>

--
Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
-- Thomas J. Watson

On 12/3/09 5:09 PM, "Woody" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Pete wrote:
>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>> Thanks for your opinions.
>
> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do
> on a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado. Even so, you can
> replicate the results by taking multiple passes on the SCMS.

No true. My RAS has a molding head, a planer attachment and a chuck for
router bits. It does a much poorer job at any of those tasks than a
dedicated tool but it is possible. Being able to rotate the head vertically
opens up possibilities that a SCMS cannot touch.

"Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>>> news:[email protected]...
snip


> Not in the case of Dewalt 718 as the base has a plastic insert and turns
> as you change the miter angle so there's no chance of hitting a metal
> base.
>
> Owner manual:
> http://www.dewaltservicenet.com/documents/English/Instruction%20Manual/653515-00%20DW718.pdf
>
> on page 9, column 3 refers to it as a "grooving stop" whose purpose is to
> limit the depth of a groove. Multiple grooves stopped at the same depth
> provide a dado.
>
> ~Mark.

Keith would do well to get out more and look at the tools.

Leon wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> On Dec 7, 2:23 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> No, it's you who defends the ludicrous idea that blades cannot be
>> interchanged between saw types without "injuring" the iron.
>>
>> I'm sure you are right.
>
> I know I am. Please fix your newsreader.
>
>
>
> fix what?
>
Not properly quoting the post you are responding to, it isn't offset by '>'
or another generally accepted character.

Note, just pointing it out, in my opinion your knowledge of the subject
(woodworking) offsets this deficiency.
;-)

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I had this happen many times with my old Monkey Wards RAS. I was able to
> reduce it with proper tensioning of the motor guides and the straight arm
> pull through technique and negative hook blade. My current Searz RAS with
> the "control cut" motorized feed cable along with the other techniques has
> completely eliminated any climb during a cross cut.


My Old Craftsman RAS was a 1978 model and I noticed in later years the
electronic adjustments were added to some models and the control cut. Does
the control cut actually feed the motor and blade or does it regulate the
rate of speed that you pull?

Leon wrote:
> "FrozenNorth" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Dec 7, 2:23 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> No, it's you who defends the ludicrous idea that blades cannot be
>>>> interchanged between saw types without "injuring" the iron.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure you are right.
>>> I know I am. Please fix your newsreader.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> fix what?
>> Not properly quoting the post you are responding to, it isn't offset by
>> '>'
>> or another generally accepted character.
>>
>> Note, just pointing it out, in my opinion your knowledge of the subject
>> (woodworking) offsets this deficiency.
>> ;-)
>
>
> I was just poking the bee's nest again. ;~)
>
Poke away then.
;-)

--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

Leon wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Snip
>
>>> I just tried out their 75mm Circular saw and track. Swaeeeeeeeeeet
>> Yabbut, unless you're a millionaire...
>>
>> You'd think that, at the price they get for these things, they'd at
>> least have proper translations for the manuals. The one for the chop
>> saw is 135 pages long. It contains 13 pages of untexted illustrations
>> + 11 pages of instructions/warnings...in each of 'lebenty seven
>> languages.
>
>
> We "millionares" can figger it out, right Swingman? LOL

Far from being a millionaire, but I now own three Festool tools ... and
that's going to change, probably again today. :)

I'm about convinced a Rotex is in order for annual end of year "buy a
tool or give it to the government" exercise.

Festool quality reminds of the 50's "Made in USA" ... but there is
nothing like it in the USA today. Anything I consider not an expendable
item in the shop will be on the order of Festool, Fein, Veritas, Omer,
et al, if I can swing it.

Tools seem to be a good barometer of the decline of this particular
period in our culture ... "Made in USA", as far as tools go, is
predominately nothing but a crock of shit today.


> With Festool the manual is something you read at night when it is too dark
> to work with the tool. It is not really necessary. ;~)

Haven't had to read a Festool manual yet for operations, except briefly
for the diagram that familiarizes you with the various knobs and dials
... operation is nothing but intuitive for anyone with a basic
familiarity with tools.

Even the plunge saw requires only a few minutes with the manual before
making NO, or hardly any, sawdust. :)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

[email protected] wrote:
> On Dec 7, 11:58 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> krw wrote:
>>> Oh, good grief. Do you always keep your rip blade on your table saw?
>>
>> Yes, as a matter of fact. That's because 90% of what I do on it is
>> ripping...that's what table saws were designed for.
>
> That may be what they're best at but hardly all they were designed
> for. I suppose yours doesn't have a miter slot either.

Yeah, it has a miter slot. Damned useless when I want to chop of 2' from an
8' x6"x2" piece of oak.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

J. Clarke wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>> But the stall happens after the blade has climbed up higher on the
>> cut. That will cause undue stress to something.
>
> Only if the "something" is not properly designed to withstand the
> "undue stress".

No one can design anything to withstand every type of "undue stress" caused
by idiots or the ill informed. Look at computers...

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

RicodJour wrote:
>

> I just got the Festool Trion jigsaw in the mail today - took one cut,
> checked out how easy it is to swap blades, cut square as can be,
> systainer. Sheesh. The first one isn't free, but Festool is
> definitely a drug. I'm beginning to understand why people buy the
> older Festool catalogs on eBay.

Feel your pain ... my first is a TS 75, guaranteeing the slide down that
slippery slope is past the point of no return.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

Steve Turner wrote:

> I have a 10" Delta CMS that I used quite a bit but never really liked
> doing so. I bought a used 10" Craftsman RAS this past year which
> I've set up as a crosscut-only machine. Haven't used the CMS since;
> it's all table saw and RAS. :-)

Ditto. Unless I have to crosscut something too wide - like a cabinet
panel - in which case I use the table saw with a *large* crosscut sled.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
for Forrest?
>>
>> They have different blades (hook angles) for different saws. In the
>> self destruct test I described above, that was to simulate what could
>> happen on a RAS if the wrong blade was used and it could result in the
>> blade being pulled into the work more aggressively than the operator
>> was expecting.
>
> And how does that "injure the tools"?


Try to visualize a blade pulling too aggressively into a board and actually
climbing higher in the cut. I saw it happen a few times with my old RAS
30+ years ago. Typically the motor blade assy. tries to climb up on top of
the board, stalls and becomes lodged in that position. Naturally the arm,
shaft or base gives as the blade climbs up higher in the cut. This repeated
action will weaken and eventually damage the saw.

This can easily happen with the correct blade, this is the nature of the
beast, but with the wrong blade the situation can be aggravated.

"Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> CW wrote:
>> "Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Pete wrote:
>>>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>>>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>>>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>>>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>>>> Thanks for your opinions.
>>> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do
>>> on a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado.
>>
>> Quite true as long as you dismiss planing, molding, routing, using a flex
>> shaft, drilling, polishing, et.
>
> Wow, maybe I should get a ShopSmith and lose my planer, jointer, router
> table, drill press and sanders :-)
>
> Now, be honest, have you used *all* those functions on your RAS?
>
All but polishing.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

No, it's you who defends the ludicrous idea that blades cannot be
interchanged between saw types without "injuring" the iron.


I'm sure you are right.

krw wrote:

> Oh, good grief. Do you always keep your rip blade on your table saw?


Yes, as a matter of fact. That's because 90% of what I do on it is
ripping...that's what table saws were designed for.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Woody wrote:
> Pete wrote:
>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>> Thanks for your opinions.
>
> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do
> on a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado. Even so, you can
> replicate the results by taking multiple passes on the SCMS.

...and run a molding head, a spindle sander, do horizontal boring, run a
rotary surface planer, and a few other things.

>
> I had option of free Dewalt RAS or purchasing a Dewalt 12" SCMS. I
> bought the slider.
>
> ~Mark.

"Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:wYaTm.18178$y%[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:

>>
>>
> It regulates the outbound speed of the motor on the arm and is adjustable
> with a thumb wheel. It also retracts the motor if you let go of the
> motor. The motor on/off switch is on the end of the arm, and the control
> cut activation trigger switch is on the motor handle. You can't move the
> motor outward without pulling the trigger and then only at the rate set by
> the thumb wheel.

Sort of like a drag on a fishing reel? I can see how that could have been
handy.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
>> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by
>>>>> idiots or
>>>>> the uninformed",
>>>>
>>>> Uh, I thought we "were" talking about "idiot's" your word ;~)
>>>> using the wrong blade on a machine.
>>>
>>> In what post did I make this statement? Perhaps you have me
>>> confused with someone else?
>>>
>>
>> You said,,
>>
>> Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by
>> idiots or the uninformed",
>>
>> in response to dadOH
>>
>> I said that I thought that we were talking about someone using the
>> wrong blade on a tool, which would possibly cause undue stress.
>
> The message from which I cut and pasted the word "idiot" is
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/msg/d35ac8b5fd7cbb30
>
> Now, would you care to apologize for putting words in my mouth?


No I dont think so. I was not trying to fault you. Were you not the one
that mentioned idiot?

On Mon, 7 Dec 2009 08:21:03 -0600, "Leon" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[email protected]>
>Newsgroups: rec.woodworking
>Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 6:59 AM
>Subject: Re: Radial arm saw versus 12" compund sliding miter saw question.
>
>
>On Dec 6, 7:00 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>> >> Depth of cut adjustment?
>>
>> > Most major brand SCMS have a dept of cut adjustment so that the blade
>> > will
>> > only go down a predetermined distance.
>>
>> Item 1.4 on this pdfhttp://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf
>
>Festool will do anything for a grand.
>
>This is not uncommon and just because Festool is exspensice does not
>discredit the fact that many sliders have this feature.
>
>
>
>> Page 7, stopper
>> Armhttp://www.makita.com/en-us/Assets/Images/Products/LS1214L/owners_man...
>
>Intended to keep the blade out of the base (to prevent metal on metal
>- a handy thing), not as a dado depth adjustment. I know I'd I'd
>never trust dados on a SCMS.
>
>No, the stoper arm is for control of cut depth. Look again. There are two
>boss locations. One is absolutely to limit the ultimate blade depth, the
>swing out thumb screw adjustable bolt is for adjusting the depth of cut.

I use that function regularly, as I will take a 1x or 3/4 ply long
ripper and use it like a table (I have my SCMS set up in a holder with
a wood/laminate support on either side, so I can securely attach a
temporary "table" if I need to) and, naturally, don't want to cut
through it. I've also done a quick dado or two or three...nothing
really precise, gate stuff and such...

cg
>
>

On Dec 7, 9:56=A0am, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Leon" =A0wrote
>
> > Check my reply to JClark below. =A0You have to admit that that senerio
> > could/eventually will cause harm to the saw. =A0I too don't believe tha=
t a
> > particular blade will absolutely do harm but it can increase the chance=
of
> > doing harm.
>
> Speaking of harm to a radial arm saw, I had a friend who kept a big RAS i=
n
> my garage for awhile. He needed to cut up some aluminum that he bought at=
a
> salvage yard. =A0Most of it was soft and the saw cut it easily. =A0Then h=
e ran
> across an oddball peice that was extra hard.
>
> He tried to pull it through the piece and it went up and over it. It bent
> the arm up. After that, it cut a nice little curve upwards. If I had to d=
o a
> dado, it would curve up about 3/16' - 1/4' over nine inches. I had to cut
> the dado from both sides and chisel out the high spot in the middle. That=
is
> when I went to a router for my dadoes.
>
> It is an extreme example, I know. But these saws can get damaged if you p=
ut
> enough stress on it. That priciple applies to anything mechanical or
> biological. The other lesson learned here, you can never tell exactly wha=
t
> it is that you get at the salvage yard. That is the fun part for me. But =
I
> would never cut aluminum on a RAS.

I bet if you ran over a RAS with a tank it would bend the arm too.
That's a bit different than the "wrong" blade "injuring the saw" which
is still bullshit.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Dec 7, 2:23 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> No, it's you who defends the ludicrous idea that blades cannot be
> interchanged between saw types without "injuring" the iron.
>
> I'm sure you are right.

I know I am. Please fix your newsreader.



fix what?

On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:28:49 -0700, the infamous "Max"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Pete wrote:
>>>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>>>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>>>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>>>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>>>> Thanks for your opinions.
>>>
>>> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do on
>>> a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado.
>>
>> Quite true as long as you dismiss planing, molding, routing, using a flex
>> shaft, drilling, polishing, et.
>
>
>So a Shopsmith might be even better?
>(Except for the price)

IMHSHO, discrete tools always beat the combos, especially if you need
to do two different setups at a time. My buddy with the Shopsmith
curses that he has to tear down one setup to do another one. Going
from station to station is _always_ better, given room.

--
Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
-- Thomas J. Watson

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:80c4c489-05ef-4114-a032-e418202e8504@a10g2000pre.googlegroups.com...

The manual on the Makita referenced above indicated that the control
was for differing blade diameters rather than the miter angle
(adjusting the thing for every angle would be a PITA).

Ummm... comprehension...

The manual you are refering to indicates the need to check the "Lower limit
position" when installing a "new blade", not a smaller blade.
That is the instruction for maintaining maximum cutting capacity. When an
old blade is sharpened time and again it becomes slightly smaller in
diameter. You need to readjust the maximum depth for maximum cutting
capacity.
That adjustment is for that particualr blade. When you put a new blade on
it will be slightly larger and the adjustment will need to be performed
again to maintain maximum cutting capacity.

Farther down where I referred is the Stopper Arm instruction. This shows
the swing the arm with thumb screw and how to adjust for different depths
of cut.

On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:16:25 -0800 (PST), Pete <[email protected]> wrote:

>That's why I asked the question would
>I be losing anything by getting the scms. The only difference I see is
>not being able to rip. I have other means to do the other things an
>ras offers.
>Thanks again for your opinions.

The one big reason I would not get rid of my RAS is for cross cutting
dados in long pieces. There are several ways to accomplish this task
without a RAS but I prefer the RAS. I doubt a SCMS could perform that
task well or with repeatability.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

On Dec 6, 7:00=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> .
>
> >> Depth of cut adjustment?
>
> > Most major brand SCMS have a dept of cut adjustment so that the blade w=
ill
> > only go down a predetermined distance.
>
> Item 1.4 on this pdfhttp://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf

Festool will do anything for a grand.

> Page 7, stopper Armhttp://www.makita.com/en-us/Assets/Images/Products/LS1=
214L/owners_man...

Intended to keep the blade out of the base (to prevent metal on metal
- a handy thing), not as a dado depth adjustment. I know I'd I'd
never trust dados on a SCMS.

On Fri, 4 Dec 2009 12:16:25 -0800 (PST), the infamous Pete
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>On Dec 4, 11:21 am, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com>
>wrote:
>> On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:28:49 -0700, the infamous "Max"
>> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >news:[email protected]...
>>
>> >> "Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >>news:[email protected]...
>> >>> Pete wrote:
>> >>>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>> >>>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>> >>>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>> >>>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>> >>>> Thanks for your opinions.
>>
>> >>> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do on
>> >>> a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado.
>>
>> >> Quite true as long as you dismiss planing, molding, routing, using a flex
>> >> shaft, drilling, polishing, et.
>>
>> >So a Shopsmith might be even better?
>> >(Except for the price)
>>
>> IMHSHO, discrete tools always beat the combos, especially if you need
>> to do two different setups at a time.  My buddy with the Shopsmith
>> curses that he has to tear down one setup to do another one. Going
>> from station to station is _always_ better, given room.  
>>
>> --
>> Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
>> to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
>> of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
>> important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
>>                                                   -- Thomas J. Watson- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>I am the original poster of this question. I have a Grizzly G0444Z TS,
>a 10" miter saw, and sears RAS. My intentions were now to sell my
>recently bought RAS and 10" MS and buy the Craftman 12" SCMS which is
>on sale at Sears. What I really want to do is free up some space in my
>shop by getting rid of the RAS and hope to buy a drum sander to put in
>the space where the RAS now is. That's why I asked the question would
>I be losing anything by getting the scms. The only difference I see is
>not being able to rip. I have other means to do the other things an
>ras offers.

Having been burnt by Searz before (they won't get another dime of my
money for any reason), I'd go with another brand of SCMS. You can rip
on the Griz TS. I need to move up to a 12" SCMS myself. The old $25
Delta was old when I got it and I've had to finish cuts on 2x8s with
my ryoba several times. That gets old in a hurry.


>Thanks again for your opinions.

It's really too bad that someone hasn't adapted an SCMS to be able to
rip lumber, isn't it?


--
Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
-- Thomas J. Watson

On Dec 4, 11:21=A0am, Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com>
wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Dec 2009 21:28:49 -0700, the infamous "Max"
> <[email protected]> scrawled the following:
>
>
>
>
>
> >"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >> "Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>> Pete wrote:
> >>>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
> >>>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
> >>>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
> >>>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
> >>>> Thanks for your opinions.
>
> >>> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can d=
o on
> >>> a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado.
>
> >> Quite true as long as you dismiss planing, molding, routing, using a f=
lex
> >> shaft, drilling, polishing, et.
>
> >So a Shopsmith might be even better?
> >(Except for the price)
>
> IMHSHO, discrete tools always beat the combos, especially if you need
> to do two different setups at a time. =A0My buddy with the Shopsmith
> curses that he has to tear down one setup to do another one. Going
> from station to station is _always_ better, given room. =A0
>
> --
> Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
> to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
> of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
> important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
> =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 -- Thomas J. Watson- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I am the original poster of this question. I have a Grizzly G0444Z TS,
a 10" miter saw, and sears RAS. My intentions were now to sell my
recently bought RAS and 10" MS and buy the Craftman 12" SCMS which is
on sale at Sears. What I really want to do is free up some space in my
shop by getting rid of the RAS and hope to buy a drum sander to put in
the space where the RAS now is. That's why I asked the question would
I be losing anything by getting the scms. The only difference I see is
not being able to rip. I have other means to do the other things an
ras offers.
Thanks again for your opinions.

On Tue, 8 Dec 2009 12:18:43 -0600, the infamous "Leon"
<[email protected]> scrawled the following:

>
>"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>Snip
>
>>>
>>>Item 1.4 on this pdf
>>>http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf
>>
>> First we had Chinglish. Get a load of this Germglish. Cute, but not
>> on a $700 chop saw, thanks. "Open the screws."
>
>Festool is like "Crack". Once you toush it you can't leave it alone. ;~)
>
>
>I just tried out their 75mm Circular saw and track. Swaeeeeeeeeeet

Yabbut, unless you're a millionaire...

You'd think that, at the price they get for these things, they'd at
least have proper translations for the manuals. The one for the chop
saw is 135 pages long. It contains 13 pages of untexted illustrations
+ 11 pages of instructions/warnings...in each of 'lebenty seven
languages.

--
Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas
to the dangers of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label
of 'crackpot' than the stigma of conformity. And on issues that seem
important to you, stand up and be counted at any cost.
-- Thomas J. Watson

On Dec 7, 2:23=A0pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> No, it's you who defends the ludicrous idea that blades cannot be
> interchanged between saw types without "injuring" the iron.
>
> I'm sure you are right.

I know I am. Please fix your newsreader.

"Charlie Groh" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
> I use that function regularly, as I will take a 1x or 3/4 ply long
> ripper and use it like a table (I have my SCMS set up in a holder with
> a wood/laminate support on either side, so I can securely attach a
> temporary "table" if I need to) and, naturally, don't want to cut
> through it. I've also done a quick dado or two or three...nothing
> really precise, gate stuff and such...
>
> cg
>>
>>

Now that I have a cabinet saw I get great cross cut results and my CMS
seldom sees any action any more. If I were to upgrade to a slider I make
certain that it was one with a depth of cut stop.

"dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>> On Dec 7, 11:58 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> krw wrote:
>>>> Oh, good grief. Do you always keep your rip blade on your table saw?
>>>
>>> Yes, as a matter of fact. That's because 90% of what I do on it is
>>> ripping...that's what table saws were designed for.
>>
>> That may be what they're best at but hardly all they were designed
>> for. I suppose yours doesn't have a miter slot either.
>
> Yeah, it has a miter slot. Damned useless when I want to chop of 2' from
> an 8' x6"x2" piece of oak.


What you need is a better miter gauge or sled. ;~) I was doing almost that
a couple of weeks ago. 2, 1x6 oak 8' long with 2 more the same size clamped
in front. Basically I had a 2x12. I needed all to be exactly the same
length. I clamped all the pieces together so that they would not slip and
then clamped the group to my miter gauge.
A friend arrived as I was getting ready to make the cut. I told him to not
try this at home. All went well, no excitement and I ended with what I
expected.

Pete wrote:
> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
> Thanks for your opinions.

All depends on what you intend/want to do and what else you have.

IMO different tools, different uses.

For one, a small, inexpensive RAS will be unlikely to have the accuracy
w/o fiddling w/ it the miter saw (again unless you're going HF or its ilk).

But, still, "all depends"...

--

Leon wrote:
> "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:ff5f472e-d010-4bcf-a9f4-d3a31e56b8ca@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>> Thanks for your opinions.
>
>
> I started off with a RAS and built half the furniture in my house.
>
> 4 years later I bought a Craftsman contractors saw and IMEDIATELY quit using
> the RAS.
>
> 5 years later I bought a 12" CMS to suppliment the TS
>
> 9 years later I upgraded my contractors to a cabinet saw.
>
> Almost immediately I quit using my CMS.
>
> I do all my of cutting on the 52" capacity cabinet saw.

I have a 10" Delta CMS that I used quite a bit but never really liked doing so. I bought a
used 10" Craftsman RAS this past year which I've set up as a crosscut-only machine. Haven't
used the CMS since; it's all table saw and RAS. :-)

--
"Our beer goes through thousands of quality Czechs every day."
(From a Shiner Bock billboard I saw in Austin some years ago)
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Gordon Shumway wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:17:49 -0600, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I can somehow believe that one blade might cut cleaner on a table saw
>> vs. RAS but I ain't buying the "injure the tools" argument. I wasn't
>> born last night.
>
> If you don't believe it, try quickly pulling your RAS though a wide
> thick piece of hardwood and see what you end up with.

Either two pieces of hardwood or a stalled saw and it doesn't matter _what_
blade you're using that will be the case.

> Go to Forrest and read what they have to say.
>
> http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/

They say quite a lot. Do you have something specific in mind or are you
just shilling for Forrest?

Gordon Shumway wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 23:01:09 -0500, "J. Clarke"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>> On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:17:49 -0600, krw <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can somehow believe that one blade might cut cleaner on a table
>>>> saw vs. RAS but I ain't buying the "injure the tools" argument. I
>>>> wasn't born last night.
>>>
>>> If you don't believe it, try quickly pulling your RAS though a wide
>>> thick piece of hardwood and see what you end up with.
>>
>> Either two pieces of hardwood or a stalled saw and it doesn't matter
>> _what_ blade you're using that will be the case.
>>
>>> Go to Forrest and read what they have to say.
>>>
>>> http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/
>>
>> They say quite a lot. Do you have something specific in mind or are
>> you just shilling for Forrest?
>
> They have different blades (hook angles) for different saws. In the
> self destruct test I described above, that was to simulate what could
> happen on a RAS if the wrong blade was used and it could result in the
> blade being pulled into the work more aggressively than the operator
> was expecting.

And how does that "injure the tools"?

> As far as being a shill for Forrest -- not hardly. However, after
> looking at their site they didn't say much about hook angle relative
> to specific saw types. On the following page for Rockler read what is
> said about hook angle there. They say it much better than I could.
> Oh yeah, I'm not connected with Rockler either :-)
>
>
> http://www.rockler.com/articles/display_article.cfm?story_id=72

Still nothing about injuring tools. Yeah, I know with some blades I have to
work harder at controlling the carriage than with others, but "injure the
tool"? Sorry, but if stalling the saw "injures the tool" it was a piece of
crap to begin with.

Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> for Forrest?
>>>
>>> They have different blades (hook angles) for different saws. In the
>>> self destruct test I described above, that was to simulate what
>>> could happen on a RAS if the wrong blade was used and it could
>>> result in the blade being pulled into the work more aggressively
>>> than the operator was expecting.
>>
>> And how does that "injure the tools"?
>
>
> Try to visualize a blade pulling too aggressively into a board and
> actually climbing higher in the cut. I saw it happen a few times
> with my old RAS 30+ years ago. Typically the motor blade assy. tries
> to climb up on top of the board, stalls and becomes lodged in that
> position. Naturally the arm, shaft or base gives as the blade climbs
> up higher in the cut. This repeated action will weaken and
> eventually damage the saw.

I'm not denying that one can stall an RAS. In fact I believe I stated that
that was what would happen. However if it cannot withstand without damage
any force that the motor can produce then it is a poorly designed piece of
crap.

> This can easily happen with the correct blade, this is the nature of
> the beast, but with the wrong blade the situation can be aggravated.

Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>> I'm not denying that one can stall an RAS. In fact I believe I
>> stated that
>> that was what would happen. However if it cannot withstand without
>> damage
>> any force that the motor can produce then it is a poorly designed
>> piece of crap.
>
>
> Yeah... and ... that might by why most RAS's have such a bad
> reputation, why many are always out of calibration.
>
> But the stall happens after the blade has climbed up higher on the
> cut. That will cause undue stress to something.

Only if the "something" is not properly designed to withstand the "undue
stress".

dadiOH wrote:
> J. Clarke wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>> But the stall happens after the blade has climbed up higher on the
>>> cut. That will cause undue stress to something.
>>
>> Only if the "something" is not properly designed to withstand the
>> "undue stress".
>
> No one can design anything to withstand every type of "undue stress"
> caused by idiots or the ill informed. Look at computers...

Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by idiots or
the uninformed", we are talking about an obvious kind of stress that any
engineer should expect to be encountered by the saw during normal operation.
They know what motor they put on it, they know how much torque it produces,
they know the moment arm, they know the ramp angle, from that it's easy to
calculate how much stress it's going to put on the arm if it stalls.

Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> dadiOH wrote:
>>> J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> Leon wrote:
>>>>> But the stall happens after the blade has climbed up higher on the
>>>>> cut. That will cause undue stress to something.
>>>>
>>>> Only if the "something" is not properly designed to withstand the
>>>> "undue stress".
>>>
>>> No one can design anything to withstand every type of "undue stress"
>>> caused by idiots or the ill informed. Look at computers...
>>
>> Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by
>> idiots or
>> the uninformed",
>
> Uh, I thought we "were" talking about "idiot's" your word ;~) using
> the wrong blade on a machine.

In what post did I make this statement? Perhaps you have me confused with
someone else?

Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by
>>>> idiots or
>>>> the uninformed",
>>>
>>> Uh, I thought we "were" talking about "idiot's" your word ;~)
>>> using the wrong blade on a machine.
>>
>> In what post did I make this statement? Perhaps you have me
>> confused with someone else?
>>
>
> You said,,
>
> Uh, we aren't talking about "every type of undue stress caused by
> idiots or the uninformed",
>
> in response to dadOH
>
> I said that I thought that we were talking about someone using the
> wrong blade on a tool, which would possibly cause undue stress.

The message from which I cut and pasted the word "idiot" is
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/msg/d35ac8b5fd7cbb30

Now, would you care to apologize for putting words in my mouth?

Leon wrote:
> "Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Snip
>
>>> Item 1.4 on this pdf
>>> http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf
>> First we had Chinglish. Get a load of this Germglish. Cute, but not
>> on a $700 chop saw, thanks. "Open the screws."
>
> Festool is like "Crack". Once you toush it you can't leave it alone. ;~)
>
>
> I just tried out their 75mm Circular saw and track. Swaeeeeeeeeeet

Let go of the trigger and back away slowly from the Festool!

--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

Pete wrote:
> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
> Thanks for your opinions.

Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do
on a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado. Even so, you can
replicate the results by taking multiple passes on the SCMS.

I had option of free Dewalt RAS or purchasing a Dewalt 12" SCMS. I
bought the slider.

~Mark.

"RicodJour" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

I just got the Festool Trion jigsaw in the mail today - took one cut,
checked out how easy it is to swap blades, cut square as can be,
systainer. Sheesh. The first one isn't free, but Festool is
definitely a drug. I'm beginning to understand why people buy the
older Festool catalogs on eBay.

Anyone want to buy my Dewalt jigsaw? Thing's like new. ;)

R

You are the first that I have heard about buying the jig saw. Glad to hear
that it too has as good of a first feelings report as the sanders, saws,
vacuums, dominos, SCMS, router, hand planers.....

I don't know if you have the Festool vac or not but if you do and hook it up
to the jig saw let us know how well it contains the dust.

It is a slippery slope.

Woody wrote:

> Wow, maybe I should get a ShopSmith and lose my planer, jointer,
> router table, drill press and sanders :-)
>
> Now, be honest, have you used *all* those functions on your RAS?

Yes.

Forget planing...the rotary planer leaves a terrible surface and takes a
long time.

Forget routing. Speed is too low, collets chintzy, lots of wobble.

Molding head is fine.

Horizontal drilling can be handy.

Sanding can be handy...

1. Vertical drum works well; at least as well as on a drill press.

2. I often use a sanding plate in preference to my dedicated belt/disk
machine because I can sand to a precise length.

3. I used to use a 9" soft pad for surface sanding, worked fine. I now
use a Performax.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip

>>
>>Item 1.4 on this pdf
>>http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf
>
> First we had Chinglish. Get a load of this Germglish. Cute, but not
> on a $700 chop saw, thanks. "Open the screws."

Festool is like "Crack". Once you toush it you can't leave it alone. ;~)


I just tried out their 75mm Circular saw and track. Swaeeeeeeeeeet

[email protected] wrote:
> On Dec 6, 7:00 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>>>> Depth of cut adjustment?
>>> Most major brand SCMS have a dept of cut adjustment so that the blade will
>>> only go down a predetermined distance.
>> Item 1.4 on this pdfhttp://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf
>
> Festool will do anything for a grand.
>
>> Page 7, stopper Armhttp://www.makita.com/en-us/Assets/Images/Products/LS1214L/owners_man...
>
> Intended to keep the blade out of the base (to prevent metal on metal
> - a handy thing), not as a dado depth adjustment. I know I'd I'd
> never trust dados on a SCMS.

Not in the case of Dewalt 718 as the base has a plastic insert and turns
as you change the miter angle so there's no chance of hitting a metal base.

Owner manual:
http://www.dewaltservicenet.com/documents/English/Instruction%20Manual/653515-00%20DW718.pdf

on page 9, column 3 refers to it as a "grooving stop" whose purpose is
to limit the depth of a groove. Multiple grooves stopped at the same
depth provide a dado.

~Mark.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:104d91c3-3bd5-4a36-924c-88b83a59fcdd@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 6, 6:33 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:

I use a combination blade for ripping but usually a blade with a lot
more teeth for crosscuts. My point was that of course different
blades are used for different purposes, but that has nothing to do
with the discussion at hand. I'm not even arguing that a blade
designed for a RAS won't cut as well on a table saw (though I'm not
completely buying the difference between a RAS and SCMS). The point
that I'm arguing (against) is that somehow a blade designed for a
table saw will somehow "injure" a RAS. *THAT* is what I'm calling
bullshit.

Check my reply to JClark below. You have to admit that that senerio
could/eventually will cause harm to the saw. I too don't believe that a
particular blade will absolutely do harm but it can increase the chance of
doing harm.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:abf923b6-e35c-47a4-a8fd-06f097ddc18f@l13g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 7, 9:56 am, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*[email protected]>


I bet if you ran over a RAS with a tank it would bend the arm too.
That's a bit different than the "wrong" blade "injuring the saw" which
is still bullshit.

Well Keith it is obvious that you have made up your mind. Some things are
simply hard to comprehend.

"Larry Jaques" <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip

>>
>>I just tried out their 75mm Circular saw and track. Swaeeeeeeeeeet
>
> Yabbut, unless you're a millionaire...
>
> You'd think that, at the price they get for these things, they'd at
> least have proper translations for the manuals. The one for the chop
> saw is 135 pages long. It contains 13 pages of untexted illustrations
> + 11 pages of instructions/warnings...in each of 'lebenty seven
> languages.


We "millionares" can figger it out, right Swingman? LOL

With Festool the manual is something you read at night when it is too dark
to work with the tool. It is not really necessary. ;~)

On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 18:15:38 -0600, krw <[email protected]> wrote:

>I may replace my slider, though it would be another 10" so it uses the
>same blades as my table saw. 12" blades are expen$ive, and I don't
>cut anything thick enough to need it.

The blade dia. is the only thing that is the same between a 10" CMS a
10" table saw and even a 10" RAS. The same would also apply to other
diameters. The hook angle of the blades are different for each saw.
This is because of the way the blade moves in relation to the work or
vice versa. Many people use the blades on the wrong saw and could
injure their tools, their work or even themselves. Always use the
blade designed for that specific saw on that saw only.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

Though all this information is available. Idiots are able to bankrupt
many companys.

Mike M


On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 23:27:05 -0600, Gordon Shumway
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 23:01:09 -0500, "J. Clarke"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Gordon Shumway wrote:
>>> On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:17:49 -0600, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can somehow believe that one blade might cut cleaner on a table saw
>>>> vs. RAS but I ain't buying the "injure the tools" argument. I wasn't
>>>> born last night.
>>>
>>> If you don't believe it, try quickly pulling your RAS though a wide
>>> thick piece of hardwood and see what you end up with.
>>
>>Either two pieces of hardwood or a stalled saw and it doesn't matter _what_
>>blade you're using that will be the case.
>>
>>> Go to Forrest and read what they have to say.
>>>
>>> http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/
>>
>>They say quite a lot. Do you have something specific in mind or are you
>>just shilling for Forrest?
>
>They have different blades (hook angles) for different saws. In the
>self destruct test I described above, that was to simulate what could
>happen on a RAS if the wrong blade was used and it could result in the
>blade being pulled into the work more aggressively than the operator
>was expecting.
>
>As far as being a shill for Forrest -- not hardly. However, after
>looking at their site they didn't say much about hook angle relative
>to specific saw types. On the following page for Rockler read what is
>said about hook angle there. They say it much better than I could.
>Oh yeah, I'm not connected with Rockler either :-)
>
>
>http://www.rockler.com/articles/display_article.cfm?story_id=72
>
>Gordon Shumway
>
>Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
>for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 17:09:21 -0500, Woody <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Pete wrote:
>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>> Thanks for your opinions.

You can probably pick up a 30YO RAS for almost nothing. That said, I
have both (and a table saw). The RAS hasn't been used in some time
though.

>Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do
>on a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado. Even so, you can
>replicate the results by taking multiple passes on the SCMS.

How do you dado on an SCMS, even with multiple passes?

>I had option of free Dewalt RAS or purchasing a Dewalt 12" SCMS. I
>bought the slider.

I may replace my slider, though it would be another 10" so it uses the
same blades as my table saw. 12" blades are expen$ive, and I don't
cut anything thick enough to need it.

On Sun, 6 Dec 2009 23:01:09 -0500, "J. Clarke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Gordon Shumway wrote:
>> On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:17:49 -0600, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I can somehow believe that one blade might cut cleaner on a table saw
>>> vs. RAS but I ain't buying the "injure the tools" argument. I wasn't
>>> born last night.
>>
>> If you don't believe it, try quickly pulling your RAS though a wide
>> thick piece of hardwood and see what you end up with.
>
>Either two pieces of hardwood or a stalled saw and it doesn't matter _what_
>blade you're using that will be the case.
>
>> Go to Forrest and read what they have to say.
>>
>> http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/
>
>They say quite a lot. Do you have something specific in mind or are you
>just shilling for Forrest?

They have different blades (hook angles) for different saws. In the
self destruct test I described above, that was to simulate what could
happen on a RAS if the wrong blade was used and it could result in the
blade being pulled into the work more aggressively than the operator
was expecting.

As far as being a shill for Forrest -- not hardly. However, after
looking at their site they didn't say much about hook angle relative
to specific saw types. On the following page for Rockler read what is
said about hook angle there. They say it much better than I could.
Oh yeah, I'm not connected with Rockler either :-)


http://www.rockler.com/articles/display_article.cfm?story_id=72

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

On Sun, 06 Dec 2009 18:17:49 -0600, krw <[email protected]> wrote:

>I can somehow believe that one blade might cut cleaner on a table saw
>vs. RAS but I ain't buying the "injure the tools" argument. I wasn't
>born last night.

If you don't believe it, try quickly pulling your RAS though a wide
thick piece of hardwood and see what you end up with.

Go to Forrest and read what they have to say.

http://www.forrestsawbladesonline.com/

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:26:33 -0500, Woody <[email protected]>
wrote:

>krw wrote:
>
>> How do you dado on an SCMS, even with multiple passes?
>>
>
>1. Set depth-of-cut on SCMS so blade doesn't cut through wood but cuts
>to dado depth.
>2. Set start/stop blocks to limit width of dado
>3. Run multiple passes between start/stop to clear out dado.

Depth of cut adjustment?

"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 19:24:35 -0600, Gordon Shumway
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> How is the blade going to "injure the tools"? I've looked at a lot of
> blades and few say anything about the saw they're designed for. THe
> ones that do tend to be cheaper blades for CMS saws.


Actually the better quality blades, Forrest for instance, do in fact suggest
speciffic blades for specific saws.

WW 1 Best for RAS

WW 2 Best for TS

And then there is the Chop Master for the chop and miter saws.

Additionally because the RAS is typically going to be doing more cross
cutting than ripping the WW1 has more teeth. When there are more teeth
during cross cutting you get a smoother cut.
The WW2 for the TS has fewer teeth and as you would suspect the TS is better
suited for ripping.

With both those comments in mind I have 2, 40 tooth WW 2 blades for my TS.
I would challange most any blade including the WW1 to produce a better cross
cut. Then why have more teeth on a more cross cut specific blade?
With more teeth you get a faster cut when cross cutting with the same smooth
result. With fewer teeth you simply cut slower to replicate a blade with
more teeth. Additionally with more teeth doing the " harder on the teeth"
cross cutting they stay sharper longer than a blade with fewer teeth.

Last, the blades made for specific saws also have tooth bevel angles that
are better suited to cutting wood on that particular saw. Typically with a
TS the higher the blade is above the cut the better the cut. But for that
you typically have the blade teeth completely clear the top of the work
being cut. For a RAS you typically don't want the blade to penetrate the
table surface much more than the bottom of the cut. Here a different tooth
hook angle is more beneficial and reduces the tendency of the blade to grab
the work.

krw wrote:

> How do you dado on an SCMS, even with multiple passes?
>

1. Set depth-of-cut on SCMS so blade doesn't cut through wood but cuts
to dado depth.
2. Set start/stop blocks to limit width of dado
3. Run multiple passes between start/stop to clear out dado.

~Mark.

On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:19:43 -0600, Gordon Shumway
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:17:55 -0600, krw <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>How is the blade going to "injure the tools"? I've looked at a lot of
>>blades and few say anything about the saw they're designed for. THe
>>ones that do tend to be cheaper blades for CMS saws.
>
>For example, using a blade that isn't designed for a RAS could draw
>the saw more quickly into the work. This could result in bending the
>saw blade or possibly bending the arbor on the motor.

Don't use dull blades. You'll put your eye out.

As I said, none of the blades at Woodcraft this weekend had any
limitations on the types of saws they were designed for, though for
some reason one didn't have the symbol for a contractor's saw but it
did have the symbol for a cabinet saw.

I can somehow believe that one blade might cut cleaner on a table saw
vs. RAS but I ain't buying the "injure the tools" argument. I wasn't
born last night.

On Thu, 03 Dec 2009 22:17:55 -0600, krw <[email protected]> wrote:

>How is the blade going to "injure the tools"? I've looked at a lot of
>blades and few say anything about the saw they're designed for. THe
>ones that do tend to be cheaper blades for CMS saws.

For example, using a blade that isn't designed for a RAS could draw
the saw more quickly into the work. This could result in bending the
saw blade or possibly bending the arbor on the motor.

Gordon Shumway

Our Constitution needs to be used less as a shield
for the guilty and more as a sword for the victim.

Leon wrote:
> "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Dec 7, 11:58 am, "dadiOH" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> krw wrote:
>>>>> Oh, good grief. Do you always keep your rip blade on your table
>>>>> saw?
>>>>
>>>> Yes, as a matter of fact. That's because 90% of what I do on it is
>>>> ripping...that's what table saws were designed for.
>>>
>>> That may be what they're best at but hardly all they were designed
>>> for. I suppose yours doesn't have a miter slot either.
>>
>> Yeah, it has a miter slot. Damned useless when I want to chop of 2'
>> from an 8' x6"x2" piece of oak.
>
>
> What you need is a better miter gauge or sled. ;~) I was doing
> almost that a couple of weeks ago. 2, 1x6 oak 8' long with 2 more
> the same size clamped in front. Basically I had a 2x12. I needed
> all to be exactly the same length. I clamped all the pieces together
> so that they would not slip and then clamped the group to my miter
> gauge. A friend arrived as I was getting ready to make the cut. I told
> him
> to not try this at home. All went well, no excitement and I ended
> with what I expected.

Glad it worked out for you :)

I do have a dandy sled, BTW, use it mostly for trimming panels up tp 3'x5',
no good for long stuff as I have insufficient room for long stock to hang
off the table; NP, I just plop it down on my RAS. If I didn't have that,
I'd use saw horses and a circular saw. Where there is a will there is a way
:)

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

"Woody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Pete wrote:
>> I am trying to decide which one to buy. If I get a RAS I will not be
>> doing any ripping with it. If I get a scms would I not have the best
>> of both worlds and would it be safer to use and require less shop
>> space and allow me to sell my chop saw? I can get a ras cheap.
>> Thanks for your opinions.
>
> Assuming you don't want to rip on it, then the *only* thing you can do on
> a RAS that you can't do on a SCMS is a stacked dado.

Quite true as long as you dismiss planing, molding, routing, using a flex
shaft, drilling, polishing, et.

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
.
>>
>> Depth of cut adjustment?
>
> Most major brand SCMS have a dept of cut adjustment so that the blade will
> only go down a predetermined distance.


Item 1.4 on this pdf
http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/kapex_ks_120.pdf

Page 7, stopper Arm
http://www.makita.com/en-us/Assets/Images/Products/LS1214L/owners_manuals/LS1214L_OM.pdf

Leon wrote:
> "Doug Winterburn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I had this happen many times with my old Monkey Wards RAS. I was able to
>> reduce it with proper tensioning of the motor guides and the straight arm
>> pull through technique and negative hook blade. My current Searz RAS with
>> the "control cut" motorized feed cable along with the other techniques has
>> completely eliminated any climb during a cross cut.
>
>
> My Old Craftsman RAS was a 1978 model and I noticed in later years the
> electronic adjustments were added to some models and the control cut. Does
> the control cut actually feed the motor and blade or does it regulate the
> rate of speed that you pull?
>
>
It regulates the outbound speed of the motor on the arm and is
adjustable with a thumb wheel. It also retracts the motor if you let go
of the motor. The motor on/off switch is on the end of the arm, and the
control cut activation trigger switch is on the motor handle. You can't
move the motor outward without pulling the trigger and then only at the
rate set by the thumb wheel.

Steve Turner wrote:
> Leon wrote:


>> Festool is like "Crack". Once you toush it you can't leave it alone.
>> ;~)
>>
>>
>> I just tried out their 75mm Circular saw and track. Swaeeeeeeeeeet
>
> Let go of the trigger and back away slowly from the Festool!

Too late ... I was there, but he was hooked already.

BTW, Leon would make a helluva drug dealer, now I'm hooked too!

Just like I told my kids, be careful who you hang out with!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"krw" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 04 Dec 2009 11:26:33 -0500, Woody <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>krw wrote:
>>
>>> How do you dado on an SCMS, even with multiple passes?
>>>
>>
>>1. Set depth-of-cut on SCMS so blade doesn't cut through wood but cuts
>>to dado depth.
>>2. Set start/stop blocks to limit width of dado
>>3. Run multiple passes between start/stop to clear out dado.
>
> Depth of cut adjustment?

Most major brand SCMS have a dept of cut adjustment so that the blade will
only go down a predetermined distance.

Leon wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> for Forrest?
>>> They have different blades (hook angles) for different saws. In the
>>> self destruct test I described above, that was to simulate what could
>>> happen on a RAS if the wrong blade was used and it could result in the
>>> blade being pulled into the work more aggressively than the operator
>>> was expecting.
>> And how does that "injure the tools"?
>
>
> Try to visualize a blade pulling too aggressively into a board and actually
> climbing higher in the cut. I saw it happen a few times with my old RAS
> 30+ years ago. Typically the motor blade assy. tries to climb up on top of
> the board, stalls and becomes lodged in that position. Naturally the arm,
> shaft or base gives as the blade climbs up higher in the cut.

I had this happen many times with my old Monkey Wards RAS. I was able
to reduce it with proper tensioning of the motor guides and the straight
arm pull through technique and negative hook blade. My current Searz
RAS with the "control cut" motorized feed cable along with the other
techniques has completely eliminated any climb during a cross cut.

This repeated
> action will weaken and eventually damage the saw.

It can sure knock it out of alignment.

>
> This can easily happen with the correct blade, this is the nature of the
> beast, but with the wrong blade the situation can be aggravated.
>
>