I'm putting together plans for some new kitchen cabinets, and am currently
planning to build Shaker-style doors. I'm thinking of using maple-faced
plywood for the panels, in order to save myself a bit of work (this
project has to get done in a limited timeframe), and I know that plywood
panels can be glued into the frame, as plywood is dimensionally stable. If
I do that, can I get away with not having to mortise-and-tenon the frame,
thus saving myself a *whole* lot of work?
Also, is 1/4" ply the norm here, or should I use 3/8"?
--
-Chip Olson. | ceo2 at thsi dot org | remove the 2 to reply
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:48:50 -0500, Chip Olson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I'm putting together plans for some new kitchen cabinets, and am currently
>planning to build Shaker-style doors. I'm thinking of using maple-faced
>plywood for the panels, in order to save myself a bit of work (this
>project has to get done in a limited timeframe), and I know that plywood
>panels can be glued into the frame, as plywood is dimensionally stable. If
>I do that, can I get away with not having to mortise-and-tenon the frame,
>thus saving myself a *whole* lot of work?
>
>Also, is 1/4" ply the norm here, or should I use 3/8"?
Even with ply, let the panel float. It is difficult to beat
mortise-and-tenon for quality construction. You can use 3/8" but
think about heavier or more hinges to support the extra weight. The
Shakers did not use ply, rather raised panels were used with the
raised portion on the inside (rather than outside) of the door.
Chip wrote:>I'm putting together plans for some new kitchen cabinets, and am
currently
>planning to build Shaker-style doors. I'm thinking of using maple-faced
>plywood for the panels, in order to save myself a bit of work (this
>project has to get done in a limited timeframe), and I know that plywood
>panels can be glued into the frame, as plywood is dimensionally stable. If
>I do that, can I get away with not having to mortise-and-tenon the frame,
>thus saving myself a *whole* lot of work?
>
>Also, is 1/4" ply the norm here, or should I use 3/8"?
>
>--
>-Chip Olson.
>
I wouldn't glue the panels in..."A thing is "conventional" because it works.
Any deviation is at your own risk." "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so."
Tom
Work at your leisure!
Chip Olson asks:
>I'm putting together plans for some new kitchen cabinets, and am currently
>planning to build Shaker-style doors. I'm thinking of using maple-faced
>plywood for the panels, in order to save myself a bit of work (this
>project has to get done in a limited timeframe), and I know that plywood
>panels can be glued into the frame, as plywood is dimensionally stable. If
>I do that, can I get away with not having to mortise-and-tenon the frame,
>thus saving myself a *whole* lot of work?
>
If you're writing of stile and rail construction with flat panels inserted, you
definitely do NOT want to glue that plywood into the stile and rail frame. The
plywood is fairly stable. The solid wood frame is less so. Movement will
differ. Construction will suffer.
Cut your mortises full length with a dado blade. Cut the tenons on the table
saw or router table, whichever is easiest for you (actually, do the mortises on
a router table if that sets up easily for you, but if you mortise much deeper
than 3/8", it's usually easier (IMO) with the dado).
If you're speaking of using butt joints in kitchen cabinet door frames, I
strongly suggest you do not, unless you are looking to repair and replace soon
and often.
Charlie Self
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or
not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." Ernest Benn
On 10 Jul 2004 07:44:37 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>If you're speaking of using butt joints in kitchen cabinet door frames, I
>strongly suggest you do not, unless you are looking to repair and replace soon
>and often.
>
In your opinion, would biscuits make these joints adequate with a floating
panel?
On 10 Jul 2004 17:00:22 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
wrote:
>igor asks:
>>In your opinion, would biscuits make these joints adequate with a floating
>>panel?
>>
>
>You'd need the PC biscuit jointer to cut the slots for the FF size biscuits
>(Ryobi used to make a jointer that cut similar sized slots, but I haven't seen
>one listed for some time). I don't think I'd really care to rely on biscuits
>anyway. They do add strength, but door frames are not the place. Face frames
>would be OK, but door frames get slammed, hung on, kicked, generally whapped
>around. M&T does it even if the mortise is a full slot.
>
Well, that is why I asked you for your opinion, having read other posts of
yours here. Thanks. I do have the PC machine - have not yet used the FF
size. As for the "full slot" M&T, I assume you are referencing the "1/4"
wide X 3/8" deep groove" Lowell Holmes mentions in this thread. It is also
what is used in the old Ikea cab doors now in the house. It is interesting
to see that you think this is better than a biscuit. I've been thinking of
using this slot approach since I like the look of a square edge on a flat
panel door.
igor asks:
>On 10 Jul 2004 07:44:37 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
>wrote:
>>If you're speaking of using butt joints in kitchen cabinet door frames, I
>>strongly suggest you do not, unless you are looking to repair and replace
>soon
>>and often.
>>
>In your opinion, would biscuits make these joints adequate with a floating
>panel?
>
You'd need the PC biscuit jointer to cut the slots for the FF size biscuits
(Ryobi used to make a jointer that cut similar sized slots, but I haven't seen
one listed for some time). I don't think I'd really care to rely on biscuits
anyway. They do add strength, but door frames are not the place. Face frames
would be OK, but door frames get slammed, hung on, kicked, generally whapped
around. M&T does it even if the mortise is a full slot.
Charlie Self
"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or
not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." Ernest Benn
"igor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 10 Jul 2004 17:00:22 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
> wrote:
>
> >igor asks:
>
> >>In your opinion, would biscuits make these joints adequate with a
floating
> >>panel?
> >>
> >
> >You'd need the PC biscuit jointer to cut the slots for the FF size
biscuits
> >(Ryobi used to make a jointer that cut similar sized slots, but I haven't
seen
> >one listed for some time). I don't think I'd really care to rely on
biscuits
> >anyway. They do add strength, but door frames are not the place. Face
frames
> >would be OK, but door frames get slammed, hung on, kicked, generally
whapped
> >around. M&T does it even if the mortise is a full slot.
> >
> Well, that is why I asked you for your opinion, having read other posts of
> yours here. Thanks. I do have the PC machine - have not yet used the FF
> size. As for the "full slot" M&T, I assume you are referencing the "1/4"
> wide X 3/8" deep groove" Lowell Holmes mentions in this thread. It is
also
> what is used in the old Ikea cab doors now in the house. It is
interesting
> to see that you think this is better than a biscuit.
Those FF PC biscuits are mighty small.
> I've been thinking of
> using this slot approach since I like the look of a square edge on a flat
> panel door.
>
>
If you make a 1/4" wide X 3/8" deep groove in the stiles and rails for the
panels (which must be free floating) you can make tenons on the rails that
fit in the groove (they are glued). Norm shows this construction all the
time. It is quick and easy to do on the table saw.
"Chip Olson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I'm putting together plans for some new kitchen cabinets, and am currently
> planning to build Shaker-style doors. I'm thinking of using maple-faced
> plywood for the panels, in order to save myself a bit of work (this
> project has to get done in a limited timeframe), and I know that plywood
> panels can be glued into the frame, as plywood is dimensionally stable. If
> I do that, can I get away with not having to mortise-and-tenon the frame,
> thus saving myself a *whole* lot of work?
>
> Also, is 1/4" ply the norm here, or should I use 3/8"?
>
> --
> -Chip Olson. | ceo2 at thsi dot org | remove the 2 to reply
>
Don't forget Norms brads to hold until the glue dries. :-)
(just joking, of course)
"Chip Olson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:39:08 -0500, Lowell Holmes wrote:
>
> > If you make a 1/4" wide X 3/8" deep groove in the stiles and rails for
the
> > panels (which must be free floating) you can make tenons on the rails
that
> > fit in the groove (they are glued). Norm shows this construction all the
> > time. It is quick and easy to do on the table saw.
>
> Ah. Evidently I didn't explain myself well; what you describe is precisely
> what I was hoping I could get away with. :-) Thanks to all for your
> replies.
>
> --
> -Chip Olson. | ceo2 at thsi dot org | remove the 2 to reply
>
igor <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 10 Jul 2004 07:44:37 GMT, [email protected] (Charlie Self)
> wrote:
>>If you're speaking of using butt joints in kitchen cabinet door
>>frames, I strongly suggest you do not, unless you are looking to
>>repair and replace soon and often.
>>
> In your opinion, would biscuits make these joints adequate with a
> floating panel?
If you're determined to make these without M&T-type joints, make up a
sample door using pocket screw joinery, and see if you can live with the
way it looks. Plugging the pockets helps relieve some of the ugly, where
they would show on the inside door panels.
If they were mine, (and I am in the process of building some right now),
I'd use the stub tenon process others have described here. Or perhaps lap
joints, if they needed to be stronger yet.
My grandson needed a gate at the bottom of the stairs, when he was learning
to walk this spring. For that, I used floating tenons, and cut the
mortises with a router. Next time, I'll make/find a better jig. I've seen
them out there.
Patriarch
Chip Olson <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I'm putting together plans for some new kitchen cabinets, and am currently
> planning to build Shaker-style doors. I'm thinking of using maple-faced
> plywood for the panels, in order to save myself a bit of work (this
> project has to get done in a limited timeframe), and I know that plywood
> panels can be glued into the frame, as plywood is dimensionally stable. If
> I do that, can I get away with not having to mortise-and-tenon the frame,
> thus saving myself a *whole* lot of work?
>
> Also, is 1/4" ply the norm here, or should I use 3/8"?
Yes you can and I have seen many cabinets that are built that way;
some even have the back rabbetted and the panel is simply glued into
the rabbet. Wood expands mainly in it's width, very little in length
or thicknesss so movement isn't really much of a concern. I built some
for our master bath in exactly the same way (cope and stick joints
with a 1/4" beadboard panel glued in). Two years now and no
problems. If you want to save time, you could use a half lap, floating
tennons, or even pocket screws.
Steve
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:39:08 -0500, Lowell Holmes wrote:
> If you make a 1/4" wide X 3/8" deep groove in the stiles and rails for the
> panels (which must be free floating) you can make tenons on the rails that
> fit in the groove (they are glued). Norm shows this construction all the
> time. It is quick and easy to do on the table saw.
Ah. Evidently I didn't explain myself well; what you describe is precisely
what I was hoping I could get away with. :-) Thanks to all for your
replies.
--
-Chip Olson. | ceo2 at thsi dot org | remove the 2 to reply