Festool power tools.

On 2/2/2012 7:20 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
>> quality and a tool that will last.
>>
>
> A tool that will last? Hell Leon, I figured out the secret to buying tools
> that will last a long time ago - cheap tools that last. All I have to do is
> tell my wife "I should never have bought this cheap POS - as soon as it
> burns out, I'm just going to spend the money on a good one..."
>
> Sure 'nuff... once those words are uttered the damned POS refuses to die.
>

Damn I have always danced around that fact and never realized what it
all meant.

I had to garage sale my PC detail sander to actually get rid of it in a
reasonably responsible way.

On 2/7/2012 7:43 AM, Leon wrote:


> The Domino will do much more than simply help with making panels. The
> Domino pretty much replaces the bench top mortiser and the biscuit
> joiner and does so with much more accuracy than either.


Are you going to switch to the XL when it comes out?

--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
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On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 11:59:46 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> The lights, man, the lights! One of the new DeWalt impact drives had 3, 3!
>> LEDs. That's reason enough to buy the whole line, man!

Is that what those lights are on my impact driver? *Real* LED's? Damn,
now I *will* have to go out and buy the whole line.

I'm kind of short on cash right now, so I guess I'll have to sell my
Domino and HL850. Just gotta have those LED DeWalts.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:52:41 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>For Christmas my wife bought me the T15-3 Festool drill.

Nice wife. Does she have an unmarried twin sister?

>So I really really like the drill.

Well it's true about what I said to another person who thinks that
Festool is some type of gimmick. I'm afraid I'll like a Festool drill
so much that I'll be forced to buy it. That's why I haven't actually
gone to look at any. If I did, my three other drills would get lonely.
Right now, I refuse to diss my current trusted companion drills.

On Feb 7, 7:14=A0pm, Stuart <[email protected]> wrote:
> By the time we got there, after a total of 9 miles, I had
> to plead with her to drive me home because I felt incapable of walking as
> far as the bus stop!

Yeah, I get like that after half a mile or so! No, just kidding, but I
do find that walking for anything over two miles does something to me
where I need to lie down and have a good stretch. Weird.


> The "Birmingham Canal Navigation" comprises over 100 miles of canals and
> we hope to cover most of them. Details can be found on Waterscape.com but
> you probably know that.

I knew that Birmingham had an extensive network, but not that much. I
don't really know much about canals at all really, just the
engineering and what-not. Thanks for the website address, I'll have a
look at that. I am still impressed that the Bridgewater canal has no
locks! (well, you know, other than connections - the canal itself is
level)

On Feb 3, 6:23=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

> One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduced
> by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ... mostly noticed by
> an increase in the qualities of depth, clarity and definition in a side
> by side comparison ... than digitally recorded/reproduced audio.

I'd argue with that - I have recordings of vinyl on minidisc and CD
which sound every bit as good as from the record itself. My own
personal view is that it is likely the mildly compressed nature of the
vinyl audio signal, and the (possible) low bass rumble of the vinyl
will make the music more pleasing - there is a notion that dynamic
compression is a bad thing in audio recording, and when it is over
done, it is. But used properly, it isn't, and vinyl has a lower
dynamic range than CD.

Things to consider:

1. Source.

What is the source material?
What is the capacity of this source material to contain frequencies
beyond the 'normal' reproduction values i.e. if records DO produce
higher-frequency sonics, how are these processed through the
associated electronics?
For CDs, how well can the DAC circuitry deal with the higher freqs.?

2. Amplifier.

What is the bandwidth of the amplifier?
What are the characteristics of the amp? i.e. does it amplify the
ultrasound in the same manner as the audible stuff?

3. Loudspeakers.

Are the LS actually capable of reproducing these ultrasonics?

4. Ears.

Are you capable of hearing the ultrasonics?
Many tests of people 'hearing' ultrasonics are conducted with a
transducer against the skull - if they were reproduced by a
conventional loudspeaker, would they be produced loud enough to have a
discernible effect? What is the attenuation of ultrasonics like?

There are many, MANY variables to look at, and by-and-large albums are
not produced with anything like the care needed to get your nerd on
about very very technical aspects of audio technology - it is NOT
about music. A few years ago a chap named Jose Gonzales released an
album called Veneer to much critical acclaim, and indeed it contained
a number of lovely songs, but the technical aspect of the quality of
the sound was, frankly, dreadful. But it did not matter, as the
technical aspect is a small part of that album. Not to say that it
wouldn't have improved the album - it would, but listening to a shitty
copy of Brothers in Arms by Dire Straits on cassette is still
enjoyable, it's just DIFFERENT from the CD releases.

No vinyl or CD can come close to a 24 bit, 192Khz digital file for
*potential accuracy* though, and nothing EVER lives up to your MEMORY
of the sound!

To paraphrase a nuclear physicist who is also an avid music enthusiast
I once asked about this, cables make bugger-all difference in a home
setting, so long as they are of the minimum or greater electrical
specification.

Please don't think I am trying to flat-out say "Ah, you're wrong!", I
am not, rather, I am trying to convey that everyone is different,
everyone has different preferences for how what they listen to is
reproduced (I like a good bit of bass, and find treble that many
others would find OK to be oppressive and tiring, for example) and
there are so many technical aspects to the electronics used that it is
akin to tilting at windmills to say "this is definite" - I have no
religion, and if I did, I wouldn't choose audio!

On Feb 7, 9:11=A0pm, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
> That would be "capacitive" load.
>
> -----------"Robatoy" =A0wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> Speaker wire, when conductors are close together can create
> an **inductive** load (however small) which will affect that complex
> impedance which can create a load difference between two types of
> wires.

Wrong, cupcake. An EMF from one conductor setting up an EMF in a
nearby conductor is through induction. (The word 'induce' mean
anything to you?)

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2/3/2012 7:37 AM, Dave wrote:
>> On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
>>> Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
>>> high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
>>> it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.
>>
>> Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
>> better cable. But, unless you're a trained sound engineer who hasn't
>> lost any of his hearing, then cable like Monster cable is a waste of
>> money for the rest of us.
>>
>> After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
>> lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
>> (until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
>> lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.
>
>I don't know about the sound levels of dust collectors. (if i had a
>permanent shop, the collector would be outside and noise not an issue).

Rethink that. Dust collectors move a *lot* of air. Unless you don't mind
replacing that air (and heat), this might not be such a good idea. My
compressor lives in the garage, though.

> BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
>spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker.

Right. There is no money to made from over-estimating the intelligence of
audiophools, though.

On Feb 9, 12:30=A0pm, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Induction can be an capacitive or a electromagnetic (or current) inductio=
n.
>
> Electromagnetic induction occurs from a conductor whereby a current is
> induced, similar to a transformer action, in a nearby electrical circuit,=
or
> other conductive element. Since the two conductors in a speaker cable are
> the same loop or circuit, magnetic current induction is impossible. Howev=
er,
> the magnetic field surrounding one conductor can help cancel the field
> around the return conductor and actually lower the inductive impedance of
> both conductors to AC signals. This would tend to improve the damping fro=
m
> the amplifier output and lower the cable impedance. The change would be s=
o
> insignificant on audio frequencies with 10' cables that it wouldn't be wo=
rth
> mentioning.
>
> Capacitive induction is when the voltage from one conductor is capacitive=
ly
> induced into another conductor via proximity. This could possibly affect =
the
> output of the amplifier to the speakers by "loading" the audio spectrum
> unevenly by "short circuiting" some of the higher frequencies more than t=
he
> lower or bass frequencies. Since this effect would be so insignificant wi=
th
> 10' of cable and such a low impedance circuit loop, again it would be
> doubtful that this would be measurable in an speaker output circuit.
>
> Perhaps you are referring to third type of induction or something you
> imagined?
> Perhaps after some research into the type of induction you are referring =
to
> you could tell us how it can affect a speaker output load or response.
>
> ----------------"Robatoy" =A0wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> Wrong, cupcake. An EMF from one conductor setting up an EMF in a
> nearby conductor is through induction. (The word 'induce' mean
> anything to you?)
>
> ---------
> On Feb 7, 9:11 pm, "Josepi" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > That would be "capacitive" load.
>
> > -----------"Robatoy" =A0wrote in message
>
> >news:[email protected]...
> > Speaker wire, when conductors are close together can create
> > an **inductive** load (however small) which will affect that complex
> > impedance which can create a load difference between two types of
> > wires.

Bullshit baffles brains, so they say. You are a pretty good specimen
of that phenomenon.

It doesn't matter how many red herrings or straw men you hang out
there, you were wrong. Wrong...W R O N G !!!

On Feb 26, 11:44=A0pm, Stuart <[email protected]> wrote:


> There's a road (Ashburton Road West) which crosses the canal and there is
> clear access to the towpath from it. There also appears to be a path from
> the road swing-bridge to the towpath by the aqueduct so no need to go to
> any trouble, I'll sus it out when I get there.

Oh yeah, there's certainly no restrictions to you actually getting to
it, just not sure about the car park at Even City! But you might find
Ashburton RW to be a bit busy - it's a feeder to the industrial units
there - I'd be a bit worried about leaving my car around there -
lorries need to get things done, you know?! I'd have a quick squizz
down Chapel Place, which is right next to the aqueduct. I am pretty
certain I have parked down there before.

>
> It's a waste really. The Merry Hill shopping centre near Dudley has the
> canal skirting one edge and they've made a feature of it. Landscaped it,
> put in moorings (I think they want the boaters to go shopping there) buil=
t
> a waterside pub, hotel and cafes along the waterfront. It's quite
> attractive really. Streetview seems to have covered it quite
> comprehensively and there seem to be quite a few photographs uploaded to
> Google earth by visitors.


I know what you mean, but if I remember correctly, Peel Holdings had
some plan to make the area around there into a river stop with a
service going up the ship canal to the city centre (It could have been
on the Bridgewater, but that would seem a bit slow to me). Don't know
what happened to that idea though. Would be nice to see it come to
fruition, and it would certainly have the chance to compete with the
trams to the New Media City complex - I don't know if there is the
same speed limit on the MSC as the Bridgewater. I would hope not! I'm
not sure what they'd do about the lock at the Quays though - I'd think
they'd take up a fair bit of time, so maybe have two boats running on
the two sections using the Quays as the hub?

On 2/4/2012 1:40 PM, Stuart wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> ... that does not mean that nothing outside that flat frequency
>> response is not picked up, it just means that it will not be picked up
>> at the same level as that sound within the flat response.
>
> A look at the curves shows all.

Precisely ... that you were wrong in your assumption.


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On Feb 3, 12:33=A0pm, [email protected] (Arthur Shapiro) wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Leon <lcb1121=
1@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> >Monster cables crack me up. =A0I never could understand how people...
>
> Folks, you're getting a little bit out of your element here. =A0I use the=
upper
> strata Monster interconnects in my system. =A0These things are big bucks,=
well
> into the four figures, and most of you in this group won't have any idea =
they
> even exist. =A0(Look up Monster Sigma Retro.) =A0They're the product of c=
hoice in
> my particular system, having proven themselves against a bunch of other
> products. =A0Of course, if you don't think cables sound different, then t=
here's
> no point discussing the issue.
>
> I guess (having never seen a Festool in the flesh) that there's quite a b=
it of
> similarity here. =A0Have to say I enjoyed Leon's justification for the Fe=
stool,
> although I'll never be good enough to justify one of their tools.
>
> Art

I could set up an accurate AB comparison test, properly attenuated to
eliminate any soundpressure differences and I will be very surprised
if you'd be able to tell the difference between your rip-off wires and
a proper ordinary conductor. But then again, you qualified your
position about us being out of our element when you don't have a clue
who you're talking to.
If you think you can out-spend common sense, then go for it....and no,
Festool does NOT operate on those Monster principles. Their tools MUST
perform for them to maintain their reputation, they will not be able
to 'fool' expert craftsmen unlike Monster being able to pull money out
of your ignorant pocket. Monster=3D there's sucker born every minute.

On Feb 3, 8:37=A0am, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
[snipped for brevity]
> After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
> lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
> (until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
> lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.

Our hearing goes for a crap with age, regardless. That hearing loss
can/will be accelerated when exposed to damaging sound sources of high
level, pitchm duration, etc. A jack-hammer, for instance, won't cause
as much damage as a bitching woman.

On Feb 5, 10:06=A0pm, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> I has become patently obvious that, with a couple of exceptions, nobody
> here has a clue about psychoacoustics.

Needs more domino joiner, clearly!

On Feb 26, 12:19=A0am, Stuart <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Coming up to:
>
> www.northernmodellingexhibition.co.uk
>
> on Friday at Event city. I note that the Bridgewater canal is immediately
> behind the venue and about 5mins walk from the Barton swing aqueduct. Do
> you know if it is possible to access the towpath from Event city?
>
> I want to take a look at the aqueduct.
>
> For those of you across the pond who don't know what I'm talking about
>
> http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/bridgewater/bartonaqueduct.htm

Hmm, I honestly couldn't tell you, but there will be plenty of places
closer to the aqueduct to get a look. If I had to go out on a limb,
I'd say that the car parks and whatnot where Event City is are
probably fenced in, but I'll have a quick shufti if I'm over there
this week.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 10:36:45 +0000 (GMT), Stuart
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
>> showing off than functionality.
>
>Indeed

Of course Stuart, never in your life have you shown off a new tool to
a friend. Besides that, most of us are using these tools alone in a
workshop. There's really not much showing off.

>Who else could possibly have the money to spend so much on a tool to do
>the same job I can do with my Trend and DeWalt tools

And by saying that, you've completely missed the point of what many of
us are trying to tell you. That's the fact that you can't do the same
job with your Trend or DeWalt. When you add up the dust collection,
the ease of use and the added capability, those other tools don't
compare.

I know what you naysayers are really thinking. You're afraid that if
you go to one of the free demo days that Festool dealers put on,
you'll like a Festool so much you'll end up buying it. Admit it guys.
You're afraid of joining the club and being razzed for spending so
much.

It's either that or we current Festool owners are so embarrassed by
our spending so much money that we want to draw you guys in to so we
don't feel so bad. Is that it? You think we're a bunch of misery loves
company tool owners? :)

On 2/2/2012 2:07 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 2/2/2012 7:20 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>>> Leon wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
>>>> quality and a tool that will last.
>>>>
>>>
>>> A tool that will last? Hell Leon, I figured out the secret to buying
>>> tools
>>> that will last a long time ago - cheap tools that last. All I have to
>>> do is
>>> tell my wife "I should never have bought this cheap POS - as soon as it
>>> burns out, I'm just going to spend the money on a good one..."
>>>
>>> Sure 'nuff... once those words are uttered the damned POS refuses to
>>> die.
>>>
>>
>> Damn I have always danced around that fact and never realized what it
>> all meant.
>>
>> I had to garage sale my PC detail sander to actually get rid of it in
>> a reasonably responsible way.
>
> Three comments;
>
> First; I know exactly what is meant about a crap tool that won't die.
> Why is it when you have a tool you want to die, it lives forever? And a
> tool you want to live, it dies? Sorta like some people I can think of...

It might be because we actually avoid using it and can clearly remember
the hell we had with it when we used it last.


> Second; I had a couple of the PC sanders. After using them for a day or
> two, may hand would go numb. Particularly that vertical finish sander.
> They may have been state of the art at one time, but they did not like
> my hands! Porter Cable became irrelevant years ago. Good Riddance!

I had the ones that worked. The Old SpeedBloc and the original right
angle ROS. The SpeedBloc did not vibrate too much but man that thing
would raise a cloud of dust. I remember going from the SpeedBloc to the
Festool Finish sander and thinking the Festool sander was not doing any
thing. I had to learn/remember that the vac was collecting all of the
dust. I used the dust as my indicator of progress when using the SpeedBloc




>
> Third; I can't help but wonder, where does the guy who buys Leon's tools
> at a garage sale fit in the hierarchy of woodworkers? I know that Leon
> is at the top of the pecking order. I guess this guy is about half way
> between Festool and Sears Craftsman.

That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the Delta
scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
scooped up at once.

Josepi wrote:

> I have no idea what you are babbling about now.
>
> Care to explain, was it a troll or a threading error?
>
>

It was not a troll attempt - more a case of mistaken identity. Shot fired
in error. My apologies.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 2/3/2012 11:41 AM, Puckdropper wrote:
> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Why would one buy a DeWalt over a Kawasaki or Wagner, or Harbor Freight
>> cordless drill to do the same job?
>>
>
> The lights, man, the lights! One of the new DeWalt impact drives had 3, 3!
> LEDs. That's reason enough to buy the whole line, man!

What!?? No built-in laser on them there drills??

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 11:42 AM, Kerry Montgomery wrote:
> "Dave"<[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
>>> BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
>>> spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker
>>
>> I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
>> electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
>> would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
>> solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
>> means better sound.
>
> Dave,
> True for frequencies much, much higher than audio.

As noted previously, frequencies "much higher than audio" (which should
be more accurately stated as frequencies above the audible range of the
average human ear) can indeed color/effect the sound within the audible
range of human hearing.

These "partials" (overtones, or harmonics, whatever you wish to call
them) are well known examples of this phenomenon of human hearing.

If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the audio
chain (including the cable), the lack thereof will most definitely
degrade what it was _intended to be reproduced_ for your hearing enjoyment.

One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduced
by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ... mostly noticed by
an increase in the qualities of depth, clarity and definition in a side
by side comparison ... than digitally recorded/reproduced audio.

These qualities are most definitely not as subjective as they seem to an
untrained ear.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2/2/2012 7:20 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Leon wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
>>> quality and a tool that will last.
>>>
>>
>> A tool that will last? Hell Leon, I figured out the secret to buying
>> tools
>> that will last a long time ago - cheap tools that last. All I have to do
>> is
>> tell my wife "I should never have bought this cheap POS - as soon as it
>> burns out, I'm just going to spend the money on a good one..."
>>
>> Sure 'nuff... once those words are uttered the damned POS refuses to die.
>>
>
> Damn I have always danced around that fact and never realized what it all
> meant.
>
> I had to garage sale my PC detail sander to actually get rid of it in a
> reasonably responsible way.

Three comments;

First; I know exactly what is meant about a crap tool that won't die. Why
is it when you have a tool you want to die, it lives forever? And a tool
you want to live, it dies? Sorta like some people I can think of...

Second; I had a couple of the PC sanders. After using them for a day or
two, may hand would go numb. Particularly that vertical finish sander.
They may have been state of the art at one time, but they did not like my
hands! Porter Cable became irrelevant years ago. Good Riddance!

Third; I can't help but wonder, where does the guy who buys Leon's tools at
a garage sale fit in the hierarchy of woodworkers? I know that Leon is at
the top of the pecking order. I guess this guy is about half way between
Festool and Sears Craftsman.

On 02/02/2012 05:10 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/2/2012 4:00 PM, Mike M wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 13:47:12 -0600, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/2/2012 1:14 PM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 2/2/2012 12:10 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Sure as hell aint worth the extra USD700 over a Dewalt 18V.
>>>>
>>>> Well I only paid about $350 more that a DeWalt. New mine was is only
>>>> $575. Not sure where you are getting your pricing.
>>>> But does did your DeWalt have the right angle attachment, eccentric and
>>>> quick drive change attachment?
>>>
>>> As someone other than a hobbyist, I'll buy a tool any day that in ten
>>> years will have cost you less than $5/month, and you're still good to go
>>> for another ten, and more.
>>>
>>>
>>> Festool's not for everyone ... until you experience what owning a
>>> Festool can do for making you money, most simply won't "get it".
>>>
>>> Hell, the Festool _dust collection_ ability alone has literally saved me
>>> enough in _onsite dust control measures_ to easily pay for the rest of
>>> my Festool aresenal five times over.
>>>
>>> You bet I can justify owning Festool ... at twice the price if
>>> necessary.
>>
>> When I first got the Rotek sander it threw me for a loop. I was
>> used to judging how much had been done by the sawdust. I had to keep
>> checking to be sure it was sanding because there wasn't any sawdust.
>>
>> Mike M
>
> LOL I just got through mentioning that about the Festool detail sander.
>
> I did not have as much trouble with the Rotex which I got first as it is
> relative easy to see the progress on the work. Going to a finish sander
> where you are not reshaping so to speak really concerned me.
>
> AND THE PAPER! It seldom looks worn out, I had to learn to give it a
> finger feel on a regular basis.

Did you wear one of those festering proctologist gloves?


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Why would one buy a DeWalt over a Kawasaki or Wagner, or Harbor Freight
> cordless drill to do the same job?
>

The lights, man, the lights! One of the new DeWalt impact drives had 3, 3!
LEDs. That's reason enough to buy the whole line, man!

:-)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

>"Stuart" wrote in message news:[email protected]...


>Aye, who was it said said "Two nations separated by a common language"?

>Mind you, my spelling isn't always that good anyway, especially when I'm
>feeling annoyed. It should be "knot" round here too and for that I must
>eat humble pie.

>Stuart Winsor

>Only plain text for emails
>http://www.asciiribbon.org

Is that pronounced, "umble"? ;-)

Max

"Leon" wrote

>And the dust collectors are not really an annoying noise, typically
>quieter than any of the machines that they are hooked up to.

Mine sounds like an F-16 just after lighting the afterburner.

Max

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> I has become patently obvious that, with a couple of exceptions, nobody
> here has a clue about psychoacoustics.

Is that you Robatoy?? I haven't seen a post of yours in months!! What did
you do to appease the internet gods to get this message through?

Good to hear from ya!

"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:06:01 -0500, Robatoy
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>I has become patently obvious that, with a couple of exceptions, nobody
>>here has a clue about psychoacoustics.
>
> Psycho Acoustics? Is that must be the noise that mII or Twayne makes
> here once in awhile?

I will give you a hint.

I use to run a small voice only studio. I had some very good AM radio
monitors. Which is all I needed for voice recordings. These were very good
speakers with NO high end. That's right. They went to about a 2/3rd
through the conventional audio spectrum, then nada, nothing, zip. I often
had folks over who had to wait for somebody to record. I would put on some
music for them.

Without exception, they always commented on the wonderful high end that my
speakers had. I would try to explain to them that there was no high end.
Just great bottom and middle. But since they heard the great bottom and
middle frequencies, They filled in the high end. I did not do it. The
speakers did not do it. There was a filter that chopped it off. There was
nothing electrical or acoustic that filled in the high end. It was all done
through what is referred to as psycho acoustic effect. It was internally
generated in their own brain. And when I would show them the documentation
on the speakers (JBL's) they would tell me I was lying.

Electronics and acoustics be damned. The human mind is capable of all kinds
of things that conventional, left brain types will not admit or believe.

"Swingman" wrote
>
> I think what Rob means is that anyone who likes to delve into the
> principles of acoustics is a psycho! ;)
>
Apparently, he is an expert in this sort of thing. ;-)

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> wrote:
>
>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote
>> >
>> > I has become patently obvious that, with a couple of exceptions, nobody
>> > here has a clue about psychoacoustics.
>>
>> Is that you Robatoy?? I haven't seen a post of yours in months!! What
>> did
>> you do to appease the internet gods to get this message through?
>>
>> Good to hear from ya!
>>
>>
>
> How's puppydawg? GoogleGroups basically sucks. I spend most of my
> social-Net time on Facebook. I tend to visit that at least a few times
> daily.

Send me your email addy and Facebook info. I took some pictures recently and
am putting together a second "Bucky report" and will send it to you and
Karl.

Quick comments, we recently got snow and puppy has genetic memory of snow
and wan in dog heaven all the time the snow was around. He would literally
do flips with excitement when out in the snow. We also got a kitten and
they are the best of buddies. Together they terrorize the house. She gets
up on things and knock them on the floor. He immediately chews them up. I
will get that report and pictures out soon.

In article <[email protected]>,
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket
> of water.

> I witness this every time I use these tools.

You make a habit of dropping your tools in water <g>

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article
<ec87c55d-2302-4839-a486-bd9ddd0b1863@l14g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
David Paste <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello all,

> I was in a tool shop t'other day (Axminster) and noticed a lovely
> display of Festool tools, so naturally I went over to have a sneaky
> grope and see what all the fuss is about. They are clearly a cut above
> the kind of power tool I am used to using (just hobby & DIY) but...
> the prices! THE PRICES! Why are they so expensive? They are
> undoubtedly nice units, but they seem to be inordinately expensive -
> 500 quid for a cordless driver, 120 quid for an LED work lamp, etc
> etc... The most expensive thing I saw was a router for 700-and-
> something pounds.

I too have seen then in my local Axminster (Nuneaton), the prices make me
fall about laughing.

They're made for bankers.

Who else could possibly have the money to spend so much on a tool to do
the same job I can do with my Trend and DeWalt tools

> So why are they so costly?

Your paying for the name.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Scott Lurndal <[email protected]> wrote:
> I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
> showing off than functionality.

Indeed

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Markem <[email protected]> wrote:
> >So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

> Me I buy lamp cord for speaker wire, cheaper works just as well as
> speaker wire unless you have some high end audio measuring equipment.
> Then "the superior qualities" of Monster cable show up, it is not
> discernable by human hearing range though despite some audiophiles
> beliefs.

I remember a while ago, an article in the magazine "Wireless world" (now
Electronics World), in which Douglas Self, a highly regarded amplifier
designer, explained why he used "Woolworths Mains cable" for his speaker
leads. Tables of measurements were provided to support his view!

As Barry Fox, in a later edition of the same journal said, "There is no
doubt that most people who pay hard-earned cash for mumbo-jumbo witchcraft
will rather hear the difference than admit they were taken for a ride"

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote:
> Monster cables piss me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
> Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
> but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.

> So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.

Friend of mine was an amateur blacksmith. The guy next to him at a craft
fair was selling home made pottery and wasn't doing very well. On the
final day of the fair he doubled his prices and sold the lot!

People believe that if something is more expensive it has to be better.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
> I bought new front speakers from an upper end dealer, one that's prices
> include delivery and installation and wiring. The wiring was Monster
> Cable. I change locations of the speakers and used 14" gauge lamp cord,
> actually heavier gauge wire, and noticed an improvement in sound
> instantly. The powered sub woofer still has the Monster cable.

Just keep the cross-sectional area up and the resistance down, theat's all
there is to it.

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
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In article <[email protected]>,
Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
> electrons travel on the outside surface of wire.

You're thinking of "skin effect"

> In that case, there would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than
> there would be on solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better
> conduction and that means better sound.

Only becomes noticeable at /high/ frequencies. There is a formula but not
suitable for a plain-test news post.

With 13A copper mains cable at frequencies below 13kHz the skin depth is
greater than the cable radius. At 20kHz the skin depth is 0.47mm and the
conductor radius radius is 0.6. The conductor resistance increase from
152mOhm to 160mOhm per meter which will have no appreciable consequences.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduced
> by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ...

They actually prefer the phase shifts and other effects introduced by the
RIAA equalisers?

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> At that time (mid-70s) I recall there was at least one uncovering of one
> how the patch cords at an audio outlet had been so modified and it was
> how they were convincing folks they could hear the difference. In that
> case, of course, they could. When a straight plug was used, all of a
> sudden the difference went away for some reason... :)

And it would not surprise me one iota if by employing odd construction in
some of these fancy cables they were modifying, say, the frequency
response of the cable to make it sound "better" - well - different anyway

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm saying ... do a side by side comparison with fifty feet of electric
> extension cord, and ten feet of a high quality audio cable, to a good
> set of speakers and tell me most listeners, and particularly a trained
> one, will not hear the difference.

> My ears are 69 years old, but I'd lay a wager any day that I could still
> accurately AB the difference, with familiar content in a familiar
> environment.

Yeh but which one is the accurate transmission of what is leaving the
amplifier terminals

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> If these higher frequencies are not passed through any link of the audio
> chain (including the cable),

Or the microphone!

Even Neuman only quote a 20kHz upper limit on their M149 which, at three
grand (pounds) is probably the microphone equivalent of Festool.

Saw a chart in a book once which showed the frequency ranges of various
instruments, microphones, amplifiers, speakers etc. The limiting factor
was the microphone and if the microphone doesn't pick it up you aint gonna
hear it unless it's generated elsewhere.

> the lack thereof will most definitely
> degrade what it was _intended to be reproduced_ for your hearing
> enjoyment.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

> ... that does not mean that nothing outside that flat frequency
> response is not picked up, it just means that it will not be picked up
> at the same level as that sound within the flat response.

A look at the curves shows all.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Nope ... what they prefer is the almost 50Khz frequency response of a
> well set up, professional analog tape deck.

30ips produces a "useable" response to about 30kHz

> There are NO RIAA equalizers in the process!

Correct but you said "reproduced by /vinyl records/....."

The equalisation curve used for 30ips tape is IEC. At lower speeds there is
a plethora of standards including NAB.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > A look at the curves shows all.

> Precisely ... that you were wrong in your assumption.

Not at all. After a peak at about 10k the response is clearly heading
downwards at a rate of notts

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Which microphone is Google confusing you about?

Nothing to do with google, I'm quoting manufactures figures here.

> A "flat" response from 20Hz to 20 kHz is just that "flat" .. double your
> figure "10k" above.

Go look yourself at the curves for the microphone I mentioned. 4dB down at
20Hz, notionally flat between 5Hz and about 7K, rising to a peak of +4dB
at 10k then rapidly falling off from about 13k to be -6dB at 20k. I would
estimate without copying and drawing it out on graph paper (yes I have
the proper bode plot paper) it's about -30dB at 30kHz. At your fanciful
50kHz it's out of sight.

> And "notts" being an audio engineering term from what planet?

Ah, of course, I forgot I'm talking to Americans with their poor education.

"Rate of Notts" - standard expression referring to speed in Nautical miles
per hour - Notts. Translation for your benefit - the output is falling
very rapidly with increasing frequency.

> You are out of your element

Oh No sunshine, after nearly 40 years as an electronics engineer I know
exactly what I'm talking about but perhaps you'd better stick to woodwork.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Irrelevant ... Google can indeed provide you with information and
> terminology, but, unfortunately, can't provide you with the basic
> understanding to properly use it.

Actually, I've been interested and involved in tape recording since my
parents bought a recorder back in the early 60's. Obviously that was a
low-end domestic machine but I've had a number of others, and built my
own, since. My current machine is a Ferrograph logic 7 but unfortunately
it now sits largely unused at the far end of the lounge. For a number of
reasons I no-longer have anything to record live and my microphones -
condensers and ribbons - have all gone up on ebay but I still have my
standard calibration tapes and the necessary test equipment to set
everything up.

Sure, I used google to check latest stuff such as current microphone
technology and specs but I /know/ at lot more than you think.

With microphone response dramatically falling off and machine response
also falling off, let alone your ears, it's largely academic as to whether
there is anything above 20k of any significance - or even lower
frequencies than that - unless you have the ears of a bat.

For all your ravings about psycho-acoustics you clearly have not
understood the work that has been done proving that at higher frequencies
(in particular) and below certain thresholds you can actually throw
information away without it being noticed by the human brain because of
msking effects.

We've drifted a long way from Festool so end of this particular discussion.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
CW <[email protected]> wrote:
> You forget that we do not speak the same language. It's spelled knot
> around here.

Aye, who was it said said "Two nations separated by a common language"?

Mind you, my spelling isn't always that good anyway, especially when I'm
feeling annoyed. It should be "knot" round here too and for that I must
eat humble pie.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Anytime you're ready to compare the number of music recordings you have
> to your credit as a _recording engineer_, that are being downloaded from
> iTunes, and being streamed by Spotify and Rhapsody to millions around
> the world as we speak, among others, let me know. :)

That would depend entirely on the copyright holders - I'm just the erk
doing the recording. Almost all were "private" recordings for
clubs/societies etc.

Now they seem to think that something like the Zoom audio recorder is all
they need and they do their own.

Sometimes people wanted a recording of their wedding, these days they want
a video. Even when vicars prohibit video during the service many churches
these days do their own audio. My own church now has a CD recorder as part
of the sound system and the person on the sound desk operates it.

CCTV too with large screens and a remotely operated camera, high up, that
can see most of the church so people at the back can see easily what's
happening at the front.

It's a good job I was doing it as an amateur and not trying to make a
living from it otherwise I'd now be another statistic on the register of
the unemployed

--
Stuart Winsor

Only plain text for emails
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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> BTDT ... two many times. :)

> <that's a pun ... just in case)

Yes I spotted it <g>

Oh, and writing stuff at near midnight after a particularly tiring day
doesn't help - if that's an acceptable excuse/reason

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article <[email protected]>,
Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Understand, and it is ... I noticed the time difference. FWIW, I hereby
> apologize to you for any snarkiness on my part. I was in the same boat
> myself.

Apologies accepted, please also accept mine.

We are crazy I know but my eldest daughter and I had done a 16 mile walk
along the canal in temperatures around freezing and it had snowed the last
8 miles.

--
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In article
<90b5a535-46ea-4726-a1bb-b94dcdb5153b@a15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
David Paste <[email protected]> wrote:
> Which canal?

Dudley Port railway station to Birmingham.

Part Birmingham "New Mainline" to Pudding Green junction, part Walsall
canal to Doe Bank junction, Tame valley canal via Rushall junction as far
as Salford junction then down the Grand Union to Aston Junction. From
there we walked to the Wetherspoons in the city centre. We'd already
completed the Birmingham "New Mainline" in it's entirety and the "Aston
ring". It was a way of walking the Tame Valley canal that allowed us to
use public transport.

We've already walked a lot of canals in the area but have a few still to
do.

Next month we walk from Wolverhampton to Walsall and the April walk is
from Walsall, up via the Wyrley and Essington to Catshill junction, then
south through Rushall to the Tame valley canal, terminating the walk at
Tame Valley Parkway rail station - estimated at 18 miles.

I assume you know the canal network round the Midlands fairly well?

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article
<67d9723e-493d-4887-bb2b-3524178a271f@hb4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
David Paste <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sounds good, although I think 18 miles in a day would be beyond me!

When Rachel (my eldest daughter) and I were sitting in Wetherspoon's with
a pint each of "Thatchers Gold" (cider), feeling absolutely
cream-crackerd, I said "Do you reckon we can manage this 20 miler?" (walks
are always actually longer than map estimate but I have a Garmin e-trex
legend HCx that gives actual milage and speed afterwards, so I tend to
round stuff up). The reply was "We'll see how it goes".

On the other hand, we've already done 17 miles twice (in rather better
weather). It's just a matter of working up to it. Canals do have the
advantage of being virtually flat <g>

We started this two or three years ago when Rachel decided she wanted to
do a sponsored walk to raise some money for a charity -
http://www.mercyships.org.uk/what-we-do

She roped me in as her companion and was originally proposing to walk from
Oxford to Coventry (80 miles) over four days but after a few "training
walks" it quickly became apparent that it was not practical, so we did
Oxford to Leamington-spa instead (60 miles)

The first walk we did was from Coventry canal basin out to Hawkesbury
junction (Sutton Stop), about 5 miles. After a brief sojourn in "The
Greyhound" we decided to walk back to her house (about 4 miles), instead
of taking a bus. By the time we got there, after a total of 9 miles, I had
to plead with her to drive me home because I felt incapable of walking as
far as the bus stop!

I forget now the actual figure we raised but we decided to continue our
walks as a means of keeping fit and spending time together.

> > I assume you know the canal network round the Midlands fairly well?

> No, I don't know the Midlands well at all, I just like canals. I live
> between the Bridgewater and the Manchester Ship Canal. I like the
> history and the engineering of them - fascinating stuff. I also live
> near (enough) to Sankey Brook Nav and Stephenson's lovely old bridge!

The "Birmingham Canal Navigation" comprises over 100 miles of canals and
we hope to cover most of them. Details can be found on Waterscape.com but
you probably know that.

Salford junction on the canal system lies slap-bang underneath "Spaghetti
junction", J6 on the M6 motorway, and seen from canal level that is a
pretty amazing piece of enginnering too. Only from there, as you walk
along underneath it, do you appreciate the multi-level complexity of it
all - with a railway running through the middle of it too!

If you ever get the chance to get down to Birmingham and have the time,
you really need to walk "The Aston Ring" (about 5.5 miles) and when you
get to Salford junction walk a liitle way along the Tame valley canal
westwards and the Grand union Eastwards

--
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In article
<67d9723e-493d-4887-bb2b-3524178a271f@hb4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
David Paste <[email protected]> wrote:
> No, I don't know the Midlands well at all, I just like canals. I live
> between the Bridgewater and the Manchester Ship Canal. I like the
> history and the engineering of them - fascinating stuff. I also live
> near (enough) to Sankey Brook Nav and Stephenson's lovely old bridge!

Coming up to:

www.northernmodellingexhibition.co.uk

on Friday at Event city. I note that the Bridgewater canal is immediately
behind the venue and about 5mins walk from the Barton swing aqueduct. Do
you know if it is possible to access the towpath from Event city?

I want to take a look at the aqueduct.

For those of you across the pond who don't know what I'm talking about

http://www.penninewaterways.co.uk/bridgewater/bartonaqueduct.htm

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In article
<3e052f47-7843-4471-8a8b-d148dca725a3@eb6g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
David Paste <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hmm, I honestly couldn't tell you, but there will be plenty of places
> closer to the aqueduct to get a look. If I had to go out on a limb,
> I'd say that the car parks and whatnot where Event City is are
> probably fenced in, but I'll have a quick shufti if I'm over there
> this week.

Looking at Google Earth I think you're probably right, unfortunately the
"Streetview" cameras seem to have missed quite a lot.
.
It's odd really, my wife and I went to a pub for lunch today and, checking
it out on "Streetview" before we went, it would appear they drove straight
into and round the car-park at the back of the pub!

There's a road (Ashburton Road West) which crosses the canal and there is
clear access to the towpath from it. There also appears to be a path from
the road swing-bridge to the towpath by the aqueduct so no need to go to
any trouble, I'll sus it out when I get there.

It's a waste really. The Merry Hill shopping centre near Dudley has the
canal skirting one edge and they've made a feature of it. Landscaped it,
put in moorings (I think they want the boaters to go shopping there) built
a waterside pub, hotel and cafes along the waterfront. It's quite
attractive really. Streetview seems to have covered it quite
comprehensively and there seem to be quite a few photographs uploaded to
Google earth by visitors.

--
Stuart Winsor

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In article
<[email protected]>,
David Paste <[email protected]> wrote:
> But you might find
> Ashburton RW to be a bit busy - it's a feeder to the industrial units
> there - I'd be a bit worried about leaving my car around there -
> lorries need to get things done, you know?!

Plan is to leave the car where it is in the Event City car park and walk.

>I don't know if there is the same speed limit on the MSC as the
>Bridgewater. I would hope not!

Well, I'm sure it would have a limit to reduce errosion of the banks but
some little time googling has produced no results

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In article
<[email protected]>,
David Paste <[email protected]> wrote:
> Oh yeah, there's certainly no restrictions to you actually getting to
> it, just not sure about the car park at Even City!

Turns out, as I had hoped, there was direct access to the tow-path, via
some gates, from the Barton Square car park so I was able to walk straight
along the canal.

I've put up some pictures here of the show and canal

http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm256/stuartwinsor/Manchester_Show/

This is a straight dump from my camera memory card and I've not had time
to edit/sort/label the pics.

For some odd reason Photobucket insists on showing everything in reverse
order, so top LH corner of page 1 is IMGP0751.jpg, the last picture I took
and IMGP0668.jpg, at the RH bottom of page 4, the first. It was late when
I got back, I stuck the memory card in the computer, hit CTRL-A, upload,
and went to bed.

I spent a couple of hours in the show first, then met the rest of the
family for a sandwich and coffee. Afterwards we walked along the tow-path
to the bridge and then back into the show for the remaining time.

--
Stuart Winsor

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On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:03:59 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>I tried his track saw and WOW. Four months later I added the Festool
>TS75 track saw and an extra track.

And, there you have it folks! The start of the Leon/Swingman middle of
the street daily tool swap.

On Feb 10, 2:39=A0pm, FrozenNorth <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 2/10/12 2:36 PM, Josepi wrote:
>
> > I have no idea
>
> Finally the truth comes out.
>
> --
> Froz...
>
> The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.

^5's

On Feb 7, 9:46=A0am, Stuart <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <90b5a535-46ea-4726-a1bb-b94dcdb51...@a15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com>,
> =A0 =A0David Paste <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Which canal?
>
> Dudley Port railway station to Birmingham.
>
> Part Birmingham "New Mainline" to Pudding Green junction, part Walsall
> canal to Doe Bank junction, Tame valley canal via Rushall junction as far
> as Salford junction then down the Grand Union to Aston Junction. From
> there we walked to the Wetherspoons in the city centre. We'd already
> completed the Birmingham "New Mainline" in it's entirety and the "Aston
> ring". It was a way of walking the Tame Valley canal that allowed us to
> use public transport.
>
> We've already walked a lot of canals in the area but have a few still to
> do.
>
> Next month we walk from Wolverhampton to Walsall and the April walk is
> from Walsall, up via the Wyrley and Essington to Catshill junction, then
> south through Rushall to the Tame valley canal, terminating the walk at
> Tame Valley Parkway rail station - estimated at 18 miles.

Sounds good, although I think 18 miles in a day would be beyond me!

> I assume you know the canal network round the Midlands fairly well?

No, I don't know the Midlands well at all, I just like canals. I live
between the Bridgewater and the Manchester Ship Canal. I like the
history and the engineering of them - fascinating stuff. I also live
near (enough) to Sankey Brook Nav and Stephenson's lovely old bridge!

On Feb 3, 8:45=A0am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Feb 3, 8:37=A0am, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> [snipped for brevity]
>
> > After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
> > lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
> > (until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
> > lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.
>
> Our hearing goes for a crap with age, regardless. That hearing loss
> can/will be accelerated when exposed to damaging sound sources of high
> level, pitchm duration, etc. A jack-hammer, for instance, won't cause
> as much damage as a bitching woman.

LOL!!

Had to go to google to see this. Something wrong on usenet.

Leon wrote:

>
> If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
> quality and a tool that will last.
>

A tool that will last? Hell Leon, I figured out the secret to buying tools
that will last a long time ago - cheap tools that last. All I have to do is
tell my wife "I should never have bought this cheap POS - as soon as it
burns out, I'm just going to spend the money on a good one..."

Sure 'nuff... once those words are uttered the damned POS refuses to die.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Feb 3, 5:59=A0pm, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/3/2012 3:46 PM, Stuart wrote:
>
> > In article<[email protected]>,
> > =A0 =A0 Swingman<[email protected]> =A0wrote:
> >> One of the main reason why music recorded to analog tape and reproduce=
d
> >> by vinyl records sounds "better" to most listeners ...
>
> > They actually prefer the phase shifts and other effects introduced by t=
he
> > RIAA equalisers?
>
> Nope ... what they prefer is the almost 50Khz frequency response of a
> well set up, professional analog tape deck.
>
> There are NO RIAA equalizers in the process!
>
> --www.eWoodShop.com
> Last update: 4/15/2010
> KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

I once convinced a audiophile that there was this guy who calibrated
all RIAA eq's by ear. His name? Fletcher Munson of course <G>

Han wrote:
> On Feb 3, 8:45 am, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Feb 3, 8:37 am, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [snipped for brevity]
>>
>>> After all, we're woodworkers who have been hammering nails all our
>>> lives and putting up with the screaming of cheap dust collectors.
>>> (until we bought our Festool dust collectors). So, most of us have
>>> lost our fine edge of hearing a long time ago.
>>
>> Our hearing goes for a crap with age, regardless. That hearing loss
>> can/will be accelerated when exposed to damaging sound sources of
>> high level, pitchm duration, etc. A jack-hammer, for instance, won't
>> cause as much damage as a bitching woman.
>
> LOL!!
>
> Had to go to google to see this. Something wrong on usenet.

Nope - nothing wrong with usenet. Must be your news provider. It was funny
though, wasn't it?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mar 3, 8:14=A0pm, Stuart <[email protected]> wrote:

> Turns out, as I had hoped, there was direct access to the tow-path, via
> some gates, from the Barton Square car park so I was able to walk straigh=
t
> along the canal.

Good to know. So was the aqueduct all you'd dreamt of?! :-)


> I've put up some pictures here of the show and canal
>
> http://s298.photobucket.com/albums/mm256/stuartwinsor/Manchester_Show/

Looks like it was an OK show then. I nearly went to it myself, but
transport fell through at the last minute, as is the nature of this
sort of thing!

I've got an interest in model boats, cars and trains. Planes worry me
for some reason!

On 2/3/2012 3:23 PM, Arthur Shapiro wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> Now I am going to say that Monster Cables may in fact be better than I
>> thought and especially in extreme high end stuff.
>>
>> BUT You have to think that when the clear insulation is 1/2" wide by
>> 1/4" thick and the magnified cable inside that insulation indeed looks
>> Monster sized and then you see 2
>
> I don't have any familiarity with the company's top-o'-the-line speaker
> cables. (I use a different company's product.) But the Sigma interconnects
> look pretty much like other good cables - a lot more substantial than the
> flimsy little grey things that come with Best Buy sorts of components, but
> nothing that will cause much of a visual reaction. It's fairly obvious that
> the connectors are substantial, but that's about it. I believe the
> corresponding speaker cable is similar - a black-jacketed product, not the
> relatively heavy transparent look you're citing.
>
> Now I'm sure there's a huge profit margin in the Monster cables I use, but
> nevertheless they seem to be a really fine match for this particular set of
> equipment. I just hate to see the company blasted because of their
> proletarian stuff that is heavily marketed in mass market stores.
>
> Art


Art it has been quite some time and IIRC I recall when Monster Cables
appeared in the Best Buy stores. Those speaker cables were as I
described in size but had no connectors. They simply had the clear
insulation removed about 3/4" on both ends. Inside the insulation the
wire appeared to be about 6 gauge and no apparent extra shielding.

I am not saying that they were not good cables but other than marketing
why have insulation that was clear and magnified the appearance of the
cable. Does/would thick clear insulation help the sound quality of some
thing you would buy at Best Buy?

On 2/3/2012 2:22 PM, CW wrote:
>
>
> "Leon" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On 2/3/2012 9:34 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>> On 2/3/2012 7:09 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 2/3/2012 4:29 AM, Stuart wrote:
>>>> In article<[email protected]>,
>>>> Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>>>>> and will continue to run if you drop it in a bucket
>>>>> of water.
>>>>
>>>>> I witness this every time I use these tools.
>>>>
>>>> You make a habit of dropping your tools in water<g>
>>>>
>>> No, just the drill. ;~) There is a Festool video that shows it submerged
>>> in water and then run afterwards to drive screws. Youtube
>>
>> any tool will do that. Electric items are not nearly as sensitive to
>> water as people would like to think. My dewalts (and my cheap skil circ
>> saw) have spent many a rain storm in the back of the truck.
>>
>
> My tools have been wet from rain and not that I make that a habit but
> this experiment was with the drill totally submerged in water and
> immediately operated.
>
> Try that with your drill and let us know if the drill still works.
> ============================================================
> Done it with a Black & Decker. No problem. When my kid raced electric RC
> off road cars, it was standard practice to drop the motor into a bucket
> of water and run it submerged for a minute to seat the brushes.

Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

On Feb 5, 9:59=A0pm, Stuart <[email protected]> wrote:

> We are crazy I know but my eldest daughter and I had done a 16 mile walk
> along the canal in temperatures around freezing and it had snowed the las=
t
> 8 miles.


Which canal?

On Feb 3, 10:40=A0am, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2/3/2012 7:37 AM, Dave wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> >> Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp co=
rd.
> >> Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
> >> high mark up item. =A0I have a source for cable that needs to have end=
s on
> >> it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail stor=
e.
>
> > Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
> > better cable....
>
> Not in a human-audible region frequency region, no...
>
> --

One can set up harmonic disturbances in super audible frequencies
which will be detectable at lower sub-harmonics in the audible
regions. Amplifier feed-back circuitry is often a culprit in that
arena. Feedback circuitry can create odd-order, non-fundamental
harmonics which are easily detected at minimal quantities, as opposed
to the lush even order harmonics we love to hear in large doses up to
10%. After all, how else do we tell a Bb from a Baritone sax from a Bb
from an alto? Even order harmonic distortion tells us the difference.
The expression THD totally destroys all credibility of the number>>>
Total Contamination 20% cream, 1% sand=3D 21 TC useless number. But I
digress.

On Feb 2, 7:49=A0pm, Dave <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:04:39 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>
> >That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the Delta
> >scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
> >scooped up at once.
>
> After two years of sitting on the shelf, I just recently sold my Freud
> biscuit jointer for $50. I included a box of 2000 biscuits in the
> sale. I can't quite remember what I paid for those biscuits, but I'm
> pretty sure it was more than $50. Don't care, my Domino has replaced
> anything I ever used the biscuit joiner for.

Surprised by that. Seems for edge gluing 3/4" boards to make a panel,
the biscuit jointer would be quicker and easier and more than good
enough for alignment and strength. Not sure why you would need or
want slip tenons to edge joint boards.

On 2/4/2012 3:18 PM, Art Shapiro wrote:

> I'm not a wealthy individual by any stretch of the imagination, but am
> willing to expend some of my disposable income on good audio. If you
> think the $2500 for 10 feet is reprehensible, you probably would retch
> at what I'm using now. But it is a good match for the system.

While I've not spent that much on speaker cable, when I turned the
studio over to other hands about six years ago, I had upwards of $250k
invested in recording and outboard equipment ... and that was chump
change compared to many operations.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/4/2012 3:01 PM, Stuart wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>,
> Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> A look at the curves shows all.
>
>> Precisely ... that you were wrong in your assumption.
>
> Not at all. After a peak at about 10k the response is clearly heading
> downwards at a rate of notts

Which microphone is Google confusing you about?

A "flat" response from 20Hz to 20 kHz is just that "flat" .. double your
figure "10k" above.

And "notts" being an audio engineering term from what planet?

You are out of your element and Google will do nothing but confuse you
further.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Dave" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
>Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
>high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
>it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.

Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
better cable.
=====================================================
Bull.

On 2/2/2012 12:00 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Dave<[email protected]> writes:
>> On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:46:30 -0800 (PST), David Paste
>>> So why are they so costly? And more importantly, are they worth the
>>> money?
>>
>> It depends on what you're looking for. When you get into the finer
>> aspects of woodworking, the difference between top notch and a little
>> less so is reasonably fine.
>>
>> Most every Festool owner (and I am one of them), really likes the dust
>> collection of their tools. This includes their routers and their
>> sanders. The first Festool I ever bought was the Domino, which is a
>> unique tool.
>>
>> If you feel you need some type of impetus to push you over the edge
>> when it comes to buying, I'd suggest the Domino as a first purchase.
>> And most definitely yes, it is expensive. But then, it stands far
>> above your average doweling jig or biscuit joiner. Most every Festool
>> dealer holds a 'Festool day' once in awhile. You should attend one or
>> find a dealer that does. Until then, you can check out the Festool
>> Owner's Group which is a web site dedicated to everything woodworking
>> as well as other topics. It's for everybody, not just for use by
>> Festool owners.
>
> I find it hard to believe that a GBP 500 cordless driver (USD 800)
> is that much better than a USD 100 (GBP 63) DeWalt 18v.
>
> As for the domino, it may be unique, but again, is it really worth
> the price?
>
> I guess there is always a market for Rolls Royce, but it is more about
> showing off than functionality.
>
> scott

perfect analogy. I agree. I don't buy pioneer stereos or monster
cables either.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/2/2012 8:40 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
>
> "Leon" <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On 2/1/2012 5:46 PM, David Paste wrote:
>
>> If you are a hobbyist, the price will look high unless you appreciate
>> quality and a tool that will last.
>>
>> If you are a pro and or make a living with your tools you will find
>> that the price is reasonable.
>>
>> Festool is one of a few manufacturers that has enough pride in what it
>> does to actually design and manufacture the product themselves.
>> Naturally they know what they are doing, know how to build a tool, and
>> that is going to cost more money than buying a "clone tool" made in
>> China.
>>
>> Where time is money, Festool delivers top quality results in less time.
>>
>> Imagine cutting 200 "clean precision sized" mortises. Now imagine
>> doing them in less than an hour.
>>
>> Imagine sanding with a belt sander. Now imagine sanding with a finish
>> sander that will sand as fast as a belt sander with no dust and little
>> noise by comparison.
>>
>> Imagine building fine furniture and making your cuts with a circular
>> saw. Now imagine a circular saw the cuts as good as a cabinet table
>> saw, makes plunge cuts, puts a fine straight edge on a board faster
>> than a jointer, and contains 95% of the saw dust.
>>
>> Imagine a shop vac. Now imagine a dust extractor that has a hepa
>> filter, so quiet that you cannot hear it running when working with a
>> connected power tool, and allows you to stack all of your power tools
>> in top.
>>
>> Imagine a cordless drill. Now imagine one that does not rattle and
>> clatter when you have reached the desired torque setting but simply
>> stops turning and sounds a tone to indicate that you have reached the
>> desired torque setting and will not continue until you release and
>> pull the trigger again, one that has a right angle, eccentric, quick
>> change chuck for drivers, and will continue to run if you drop it in a
>> bucket of water.
>>
>> I witness this every time I use these tools.
>
> Leon,
>
> Sounds like you could be supplementing your income by being a copy
> writer for Festool. ;~)
>
> One of my local associates, whom has a commercial shop, has a shelf unit
> full of Festool in his shop. I recently saw him sell off some Dewalt
> tools... Seems he found the same things you did...
>
> John

LOL I should send that in to Festool!

On a serious note though I was never really aware of Festool, not on the
radar.

Then one day many years ago, 6 or 7, Robatoy showed me a link to the
German Festool site, all in German, that showed a video of a tool for
creating mortises. And at that time he was going on and on and on about
this Rotex, feminine product sounding name, sander.

When the Domino was introduced here, in English but not yet available, I
decided I was going to buy one. Ah but you need to use a vac with it
and my days of listening to the inexpensive shop vac's were over so I
bought the Festool CT22 dust extractor and the Domino assortment. I
dropped major money on those three items.

Damn, the vac worked much better than expected and it was quiet. These
tools are great and fast!


A year later came the Rotex sander, several months later small finish
sander. No more dust!

Christmas two years ago Swingman got the bug and was "bad sick" with
Festool need. He bought the CT22 dust extractor, T75 Track saw,
accessory kit, other tracks, Rotex sander and finish sander.

I tried his track saw and WOW. Four months later I added the Festool
TS75 track saw and an extra track.

Last Christmas I added the T15-3 Festool Drill.

On 2/4/2012 3:41 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:31:26 -0600, Swingman<[email protected]> wrote:
>> While I've not spent that much on speaker cable, when I turned the
>> studio over to other hands about six years ago, I had upwards of $250k
>> invested in recording and outboard equipment ... and that was chump
>> change compared to many operations.
>
> Considering the advances in electronics that seem to happen with some
> frequency, can I guess that equipment like you might have used become
> outdated fairly rapidly?
>
> Or does the audio equipment you are talking about not as subject to
> becoming outdated?

Depends ... the old tube equipment typically appreciates, sometimes
beyond reason, while the solid state equipment (other than mics) tends
to depreciate.

Older microphones, like Neumann's in particular, have quadrupled, or
more, in price in the last ten years. I have a matched pair of Neumann
KM-84's condenser, not tube, that cost me $400 each 25 years ago that
are easily four times that, used, today. Tube mic's, multiply that by
three, or more.

I have an old $5k Lexicon digital reverb unit that is 16 bit, and that
probably wouldn't fetch $500 today ... although it made a ton of
commercial records in the late 70's, early 80' for me and paid for
itself hundreds of times over.

I don't really keep up with studio stuff much these days ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 10:16 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Dave<[email protected]> writes:
>> On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:15:30 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>> Don't buy cables at all for your speakers, buy 14 gauge copper lamp cord.
>>> Basically all cables sold at the typical sound store are an extremely
>>> high mark up item. I have a source for cable that needs to have ends on
>>> it that makes up cables for about 20% of what you pay at a retail store.
>>
>> Actually, there is a measurable sound difference when you use the
>> better cable.
>
> I call bologny.
>
> There is no measurable electrical difference (unless the cables are
> designed to alter the sound via added passive (RC) circuitry, in which
> case you're hearing sound that has been degraded by the cables which
> confirmation bias makes you think "sounds better").

In order to say that you must make a distinction in cable composition,
cable thickness, length of run, and possible need for shielding,
otherwise you are indeed spouting "bologny" (sic).

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
>> BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
>>spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker
>
> I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
> electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
> would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
> solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
> means better sound.

Dave,
True for frequencies much, much higher than audio.
Kerry

On 2/5/2012 11:46 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
> On 2/5/2012 11:19 AM, Max wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Leon" wrote
>>> And the dust collectors are not really an annoying noise, typically
>>> quieter than any of the machines that they are hooked up to.
>>
>> Mine sounds like an F-16 just after lighting the afterburner.
>>
>> Max
>>
>
> i have found most things in the industrial world that don't make much
> noise aren't doing much work. i think this especially applies to vacuums
> and blowers.
>

In this case, 1100 CFM Jet DC and or a Festool Dust extractor you
thinking would be very wrong.

On 2/3/2012 4:34 AM, Stuart wrote:
> In article
> <ec87c55d-2302-4839-a486-bd9ddd0b1863@l14g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
> David Paste<[email protected]> wrote:


>> So why are they so costly?
>
> Your paying for the name.

Sure ... like a Bugatti or Saleen, there is no added value with Festool,
it's all in the name, eh?

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 7:44 AM, Dave wrote:
> On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:52:41 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> For Christmas my wife bought me the T15-3 Festool drill.
>
> Nice wife. Does she have an unmarried twin sister?

Not that I know of. LOL

>
>> So I really really like the drill.
>
> Well it's true about what I said to another person who thinks that
> Festool is some type of gimmick. I'm afraid I'll like a Festool drill
> so much that I'll be forced to buy it. That's why I haven't actually
> gone to look at any. If I did, my three other drills would get lonely.
> Right now, I refuse to diss my current trusted companion drills.

Well here I am with a 12 volt Makita, a 12v Makita impact driver, a 18v
Bosch impact driver that I apparently won but it is still a secret who
the contest or drawing was with, and my new Festool. I absolutely
forgot to mention the Bosch in my list, I absolutely don't often use it.
The Bosch is probably 4 years old and I have not recharged the batteries
more than 1 or 2 times. So I guess I would place the Bosch impact drive
behind the 7 year old 12v Makita impact. Might be a feel or balance
thing. I do know that Bosch has changed the design several times since
I was awarded mine. The Makita seems to have remained the same basic
design for the last 7 years.

Why did my wife buy me a Festool drill? She said she was going to buy
me a very nice tool when I told her that I did not want any thing in
particular. I wanted to be sure I was going to like/want that very nice
tool that she chose so I gave her a hint and she said that I read her
mind.... ;~)

I did not want her her spending $500 on something I was not going to
use, after all, fifty bucks is fifty bucks! Right Swingman? LOL

On 2/2/2012 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:03:59 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> I tried his track saw and WOW. Four months later I added the Festool
>> TS75 track saw and an extra track.
>
> And, there you have it folks! The start of the Leon/Swingman middle of
> the street daily tool swap.

He let me touche it. Two times! ;~)

THE SAW!

On 2/7/2012 9:32 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 7, 8:46 am, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> On 2/7/2012 8:00 AM, Steve Barker wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On 2/7/2012 7:43 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 2/7/2012 7:39 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 2/3/2012 9:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Feb 2, 7:49 pm, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:04:39 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>
>>>>>>>> That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the
>>>>>>>> Delta
>>>>>>>> scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
>>>>>>>> scooped up at once.
>>
>>>>>>> After two years of sitting on the shelf, I just recently sold my Freud
>>>>>>> biscuit jointer for $50. I included a box of 2000 biscuits in the
>>>>>>> sale. I can't quite remember what I paid for those biscuits, but I'm
>>>>>>> pretty sure it was more than $50. Don't care, my Domino has replaced
>>>>>>> anything I ever used the biscuit joiner for.
>>
>>>>>> Surprised by that. Seems for edge gluing 3/4" boards to make a panel,
>>>>>> the biscuit jointer would be quicker and easier and more than good
>>>>>> enough for alignment and strength. Not sure why you would need or
>>>>>> want slip tenons to edge joint boards.
>>
>>>>> Why would you think the biscuit "joiner" to be quicker and or easier
>>>>> than a Domino? That has absolutely not been my experience.
>>
>>>> Actually why use a biscuit joiner at all if you have the Domino?
>>
>>>> The Domino will do much more than simply help with making panels. The
>>>> Domino pretty much replaces the bench top mortiser and the biscuit
>>>> joiner and does so with much more accuracy than either.
>>
>>> and for the money, it should assemble, glue and clamp the assembly for
>>> you also.
>>
>> Only if you don't use the machine enough to pay for itself. I figure
>> mine has saved me in excess of 200 hours of my time in the last 4 years.
>> Now I don't know what you value your time at but that is about $9K of
>> billable hours for me. But as with anything if you buy it and don't use
>> it it is an expensive tool. This time last year I got a job to build 32
>> maple drawers with 3~4 exposed Domino reinforced tenons in each of the
>> four corner joints. Those drawers had been previously built by some one
>> else but a sample of mine earned me that job to rebuild those drawers.
>> I used almost 400 dominos on those drawers and that job alone paid
>> for the Domino machine and the Festool CT22 Vac. I cut those 400
>> mortises and glued in those 400 dominos in 3~4 hours. How long would
>> that have taken you to to do the same with out the benefit of the Domino
>> mortiser?
>>
>> And to go back a post or two, the question was asked why use the Domino
>> over the Biscuit? When you already own both, the answer is pretty simple.
>
> That is the question. IF you own both, why not use the biscuit joiner
> for the job it is really good at? Edge joining boards to make a
> panel. The Domino may also be extra good at this. Maybe even
> better. But the biscuit joiner can edge join boards in seconds. On
> my DeWalt, just flip the fence down to 90 degrees, set the cutter to a
> #20 biscuit, plunge. Done.

Precisely the same for the the Domino, it operates "EXACTLY' like and
adjusts just as fast as the biscuit joiner. It closely resembles my PC
557 biscuit joiner. The difference is in the results, you get a 5~12mm
thick straight sided mortice that can be set for a precice fit so there
is not left,right,up, or down movement of the mating surfaces..vs. a
5/32" thick oval slit which does OK with up and down.


The Domino will take a second or two
> longer because it is cutting a deeper and thicker mortise.

Maybe "1" second longer but the fit of the cut is 5 times better. You
do not have as much glue that escapes the slot during insertion of the
tenons, the tenons do make the surfaces align properly at the tenon
location even if one of the surfaces is not flat, I have had numerous
instances in the last 20 years where the biscuit just did not have the
grab and or strength to not flex and would allow mating surfaces to not
be perfect.

Edge
> joining does not require much extra strength besides what the board
> edges provide and the biscuits are mostly for alignment purposes.

That is true if jointing solid wood to solid wood. The domino ads great
strength to mitered corners, plywood to wood and plywood to plywood
edges, MDF to MDF edges, any type of butt joint.


And
> the biscuits are much cheaper than Dominos. From a cost perspective,
> the biscuit joiner wins over the Domino. Now obviously for anything
> requiring the strength of the slip mortise and speed, the Domino has
> its place. But edge joining boards into a panel, the biscuit joiner
> seems the better tool. If you own the Domino, no reason to buy a
> biscuit joiner. But if you own both already, don't see the point of
> selling the biscuit joiner for almost nothing.
>
Lets look at that. Apples to Apples in similar quality, 1000 assorted
PC Biscuits for $27 or Freud for $31 through Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Freud-900-XX-Biscuit-Spline-Assortment/dp/B00004RK0E/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1328630086&sr=8-10

http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-5554-1000-Assorted-Biscuits/dp/B0000222ZA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1328630274&sr=8-2

Or 1800 5mm Dominos for $75. from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Porter-Cable-5554-1000-Assorted-Biscuits/dp/B0000222ZA/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1328630274&sr=8-2

3 cents each for the Biscuit or 4 cents each for the 5mm Donino.
All things being equal with similar size the much better Domino is 1
cent more expensive than the biscuit per unit.

So owning both would it be worth your time to drag out the biscuit
joiner for this specific job over the Domino to save 20 cents on 40
cuts? As little as I use my biscuit joiner I wold loose $1 in time just
to get the ladder and pull it down from the top shelf and return it
after cutting those few slots.

Don't get me wrong here, I probably used 2~3 thousand biscuits on the
past 20 years. I have used in excess of 2 thousand Dominoes in the past
4 years. I clearly see and have first hand knowledge why the Domino is
the better choice in all instances.

BUT if you only have the biscuit joiner and don't sell your work a
Domino might not be for you. If you appreciate the precision and
quality of the cuts and fit that the Domino affords you for everything
that it allows you to do it is a big time saver.

On 2/2/2012 9:13 PM, Markem wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:00:56 -0500, tiredofspam<nospam.nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Monster cables piss me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
>> Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
>> but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.
>>
>> So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.
>
> Me I buy lamp cord for speaker wire, cheaper works just as well as
> speaker wire unless you have some high end audio measuring equipment.
> Then "the superior qualities" of Monster cable show up, it is not
> discernable by human hearing range though despite some audiophiles
> beliefs.

Buy heavier gauge lamp cord for better equipment. I am not sure Monster
cable makes cable as high of gauge as what you can buy in bulk although
I have not looked at monster cable fin a very long time.

I could certainly tell the difference between regular speaker wire and
14 gauge lamp cord. IIRC the highs were more crisp.

On 2/3/2012 2:14 PM, CW wrote:
>
>
> "Markem" wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 21:00:56 -0500, tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Monster cables piss me off. They have made the cables very expensive.
>> Other manufacturers realize that Monsters are no different than theirs,
>> but to compete they raise the price to seem like this is not a cheap POC.
>>
>> So the cost goes up. I have been able to find alternatives but its work.
>
> Me I buy lamp cord for speaker wire, cheaper works just as well as
> speaker wire unless you have some high end audio measuring equipment.
> Then "the superior qualities" of Monster cable show up, it is not
> discernable by human hearing range though despite some audiophiles
> beliefs.
> ==========================================================
> It's not discernable period. Copper is copper.

There must be a category of monster cable previously mentioned by Arthur
that most people never see. I don't think that Best Buys sells anything
that would require an extremely high quality cable.

On 2/5/2012 9:24 AM, Stuart wrote:

> Ah, of course, I forgot I'm talking to Americans with their
> poor education.

> "Rate of Notts" - standard expression referring to speed
> in Nautical miles per hour - Notts. Translation for your benefit
> the output is falling very rapidly with increasing frequency.

> Mind you, my spelling isn't always that good anyway, especially when I'm
> feeling annoyed. It should be "knot" round here too and for that I must
> eat humble pie.

Use it once and it might be a misspelling ... use it three times, as you
did, and it is out of the realm of misspelling and indeed into the realm
of "poor education".

So much for Americans being the ones "with their poor education".

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

I have no idea what you are babbling about now.

Care to explain, was it a troll or a threading error?


-------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Google is your friend you idiot, but it does not make you look any more
intelligent. Just give up and drop your internet subscription.

On 2/2/2012 7:35 PM, Dave wrote:
> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 11:03:59 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> I tried his track saw and WOW. Four months later I added the Festool
>> TS75 track saw and an extra track.
>
> And, there you have it folks! The start of the Leon/Swingman middle of
> the street daily tool swap.

Yabbut, he won't let me toush his new drill, man!

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 8:48 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 2/3/2012 4:34 AM, Stuart wrote:
>> In article
>> <ec87c55d-2302-4839-a486-bd9ddd0b1863@l14g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
>> David Paste<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>> So why are they so costly?
>>
>> Your paying for the name.
>
> Sure ... like a Bugatti or Saleen, there is no added value with Festool,
> it's all in the name, eh?
>

Why would one buy a DeWalt over a Kawasaki or Wagner, or Harbor Freight
cordless drill to do the same job?

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> On 2/3/2012 9:36 AM, Dave wrote:
> > On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:29:19 -0600, Steve Barker
> >> BUT, i can assure you that copper is copper and no amount of money
> >> spent on a name brand cable will change the sound coming out of a speaker
> >
> > I'm not so sure about that. I think I remember reading somewhere that
> > electrons travel on the outside surface of wire. In that case, there
> > would be more outside surfaces on stranded wire than there would be on
> > solid wire. More surfaces to travel means better conduction and that
> > means better sound.
>
> what you heard about stranded wire and electrons is correct. I wasn't
> suggesting using romex for speakers (although i doubt a difference could
> be detected) but 18, 16, or 14 ga. zip cord from the hardware store is
> just as finely stranded as any hi dollar cable and will do just fine.

This is called "skin effect" and it is frequency dependent. At 20 KHz
the skin depth in copper is about half a millimeter. This means that
there should be no discernible effect in wires 18 gage or smaller.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
> "Art Shapiro" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> On 2/3/2012 10:27 PM, Steve Barker wrote:
>
> >
> > i can only say i hope you're kidding, and i hope the page i pulled up is
> > some kind of hacker joke. 2500samolians for TEN feet of cable?? LMAO!!
> > What a racket.
> >
> Steve, folks who see the price of some upper end power tools might well
> feel the same way. Gee, even some bleedin' HAND tools can drop
> someone's jaw who thinks Craftsman is the best there is.
>
> I'm not a wealthy individual by any stretch of the imagination, but am
> willing to expend some of my disposable income on good audio. If you
> think the $2500 for 10 feet is reprehensible, you probably would retch
> at what I'm using now. But it is a good match for the system.
> =============================================================
> I'd be embarrassed to admit that I paid that much for wire.

NASA doesn't pay that much for wire and they (a) care a lot more and (b)
know a lot more about electrical conductivity than your average
audiophile.

Thanks Mike!


-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
It was not a troll attempt - more a case of mistaken identity. Shot fired
in error. My apologies.

On 2/7/2012 7:39 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/3/2012 9:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Feb 2, 7:49 pm, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:04:39 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>
>>>> That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the Delta
>>>> scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
>>>> scooped up at once.
>>>
>>> After two years of sitting on the shelf, I just recently sold my Freud
>>> biscuit jointer for $50. I included a box of 2000 biscuits in the
>>> sale. I can't quite remember what I paid for those biscuits, but I'm
>>> pretty sure it was more than $50. Don't care, my Domino has replaced
>>> anything I ever used the biscuit joiner for.
>>
>> Surprised by that. Seems for edge gluing 3/4" boards to make a panel,
>> the biscuit jointer would be quicker and easier and more than good
>> enough for alignment and strength. Not sure why you would need or
>> want slip tenons to edge joint boards.
>
> Why would you think the biscuit "joiner" to be quicker and or easier
> than a Domino? That has absolutely not been my experience.

Actually why use a biscuit joiner at all if you have the Domino?

The Domino will do much more than simply help with making panels. The
Domino pretty much replaces the bench top mortiser and the biscuit
joiner and does so with much more accuracy than either.

On 2/3/2012 9:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Feb 2, 7:49 pm, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:04:39 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>
>>> That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the Delta
>>> scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
>>> scooped up at once.
>>
>> After two years of sitting on the shelf, I just recently sold my Freud
>> biscuit jointer for $50. I included a box of 2000 biscuits in the
>> sale. I can't quite remember what I paid for those biscuits, but I'm
>> pretty sure it was more than $50. Don't care, my Domino has replaced
>> anything I ever used the biscuit joiner for.
>
> Surprised by that. Seems for edge gluing 3/4" boards to make a panel,
> the biscuit jointer would be quicker and easier and more than good
> enough for alignment and strength. Not sure why you would need or
> want slip tenons to edge joint boards.

Why would you think the biscuit "joiner" to be quicker and or easier
than a Domino? That has absolutely not been my experience.

On 2/7/2012 7:43 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/7/2012 7:39 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 2/3/2012 9:37 AM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Feb 2, 7:49 pm, Dave<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 18:04:39 -0600, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>>>>
>>>>> That PC detail sander, 556 PC biscuit cutter, no not the 557, the
>>>>> Delta
>>>>> scroll saw, my old Ryobi AP10 planer and my Craftsman jointer all got
>>>>> scooped up at once.
>>>>
>>>> After two years of sitting on the shelf, I just recently sold my Freud
>>>> biscuit jointer for $50. I included a box of 2000 biscuits in the
>>>> sale. I can't quite remember what I paid for those biscuits, but I'm
>>>> pretty sure it was more than $50. Don't care, my Domino has replaced
>>>> anything I ever used the biscuit joiner for.
>>>
>>> Surprised by that. Seems for edge gluing 3/4" boards to make a panel,
>>> the biscuit jointer would be quicker and easier and more than good
>>> enough for alignment and strength. Not sure why you would need or
>>> want slip tenons to edge joint boards.
>>
>> Why would you think the biscuit "joiner" to be quicker and or easier
>> than a Domino? That has absolutely not been my experience.
>
> Actually why use a biscuit joiner at all if you have the Domino?
>
> The Domino will do much more than simply help with making panels. The
> Domino pretty much replaces the bench top mortiser and the biscuit
> joiner and does so with much more accuracy than either.

and for the money, it should assemble, glue and clamp the assembly for
you also.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On 2/2/2012 1:14 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 2/2/2012 12:10 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

>> Sure as hell aint worth the extra USD700 over a Dewalt 18V.
>
> Well I only paid about $350 more that a DeWalt. New mine was is only
> $575. Not sure where you are getting your pricing.
> But does did your DeWalt have the right angle attachment, eccentric and
> quick drive change attachment?

As someone other than a hobbyist, I'll buy a tool any day that in ten
years will have cost you less than $5/month, and you're still good to go
for another ten, and more.


Festool's not for everyone ... until you experience what owning a
Festool can do for making you money, most simply won't "get it".

Hell, the Festool _dust collection_ ability alone has literally saved me
enough in _onsite dust control measures_ to easily pay for the rest of
my Festool aresenal five times over.

You bet I can justify owning Festool ... at twice the price if necessary.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 2/3/2012 4:15 PM, Arthur Shapiro wrote:
> In article<[email protected]>, Leon<lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>> I am not saying that they were not good cables but other than marketing
>> why have insulation that was clear and magnified the appearance of the
>> cable.
>
> Who knows? Probably at that level it's marketing, an activity by which I'm
> personally repulsed. I don't think you can fault them for expending effort to
> make something look appealing or to otherwise distinguish the stuff from the
> other 50 companies making similar merchandise. I surely wouldn't purchase
> something that didn't have heavy connectors firmly attached to the ends; do
> they expect folks to be using those binding posts with holes in them to stick
> the wire and smush it down???

LOL Well I am going for marketing then, I seriously wondered if I was
missing something. No kidding this cables insulation was 1/2" wide and
1/4" thick and the exposed wires in the ends was no more than 14 gauge.
I swear they derived the name after they developed the look. The
cable looked exactly like what you would imagine "monster lamp cord"
would look like. My first thoughts when I saw the cable many years ago
was how are you going to hide that stuff and or get it to lay flat.
Comparing them to a set of automobile jumper cables is a stretch but not
much. and then I noticed the ends of the cable with the insulation
stripped away and I almost laughed. The clear insulation literally
looked full of cable. Think of a pig, his insulation, and then his
tail, his wire. ;~)





>
> Probably the best (?) example of this mentality are those mini stereo systems
> that look like a stacked bunch of separate components in a vertical array -
> amp, preamp, tuner, tape deck, CD player, etc. And you open up the unit and
> you see it's all a facade like the movie studio westerns, and there's just one
> little circuit board sitting at the bottom of the otherwise empty interior!

Exactly! That is what the old Monster speaker wired looked like.

>
> Have to say I recently bought a low-level Monster product. The tiny desktop
> computer I built last summer didn't have two DVI outputs on the motherboard,
> unlike the old computer. It has a DVI and a HDMI output. Thus I couldn't
> drive both monitors. So I purchased a Monster DVI<--->HDMI cable. It seemed
> to be well-constructed, had heavy connectors well-attached to the cable at
> both ends, and certainly gave the impression that it would hold up to use over
> time. What more could one ask? It has worked out well.
>
> Art

It sounds like their features have improved.