Looking for a long-term business partner in North NJ/NYC area

It seems I am going about this the wrong way. My expectation was that if I =
showed up here and people were interested in hearing my propositions - and =
they had the hardware and skillset I mentioned - they would email me any qu=
estions they had. As it stands, I'm kinda fuzzy - do you guys expect to see=
a complete business plan before you even entertain certain discussions? If=
so, then no problem, I will come back here when I have one ready. On the o=
ther hand, if any of you guys want to get some relatively small (and pretty=
much risk-free) work done, split the profits, and make sure I have 2 brain=
cells to rub together as a fringe benefit, we could do that too. Option B =
would certainly make me more comfortable with putting the time into complet=
ing a business plan writeup.

I am curious - I realize I haven't linked to any of my work or my resume, b=
ut what in particular made anyone think that I was not aware of rec.audio.p=
ro? More to the point, why should I expect useful advice (much less encoura=
gement) from people whom I expect to be my direct competition?

On Monday, May 12, 2014 8:12:51 PM UTC-5, Joe S. wrote:
> It seems I am going about this the wrong way. My expectation was that if =
I showed up here and people were interested in hearing my propositions - an=
d they had the hardware and skillset I mentioned - they would email me any =
questions they had. As it stands, I'm kinda fuzzy - do you guys expect to s=
ee a complete business plan before you even entertain certain discussions? =
If so, then no problem, I will come back here when I have one ready. On the=
other hand, if any of you guys want to get some relatively small (and pret=
ty much risk-free) work done, split the profits, and make sure I have 2 bra=
in cells to rub together as a fringe benefit, we could do that too. Option =
B would certainly make me more comfortable with putting the time into compl=
eting a business plan writeup.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I am curious - I realize I haven't linked to any of my work or my resume,=
but what in particular made anyone think that I was not aware of rec.audio=
.pro? More to the point, why should I expect useful advice (much less encou=
ragement) from people whom I expect to be my direct competition?


What I see is you are not willing to listen to others, or consider their op=
inions, you hope to work with. It's your way or no way. In my initial rea=
ding, there are several things that convinces me you are already disorganiz=
ed.

You seem to want to market to a certain group, yet, initially, you say you =
"want to use EBay, then decide, later, what to do (use) next". You have t=
o be kidding! Your business plan better already have that decision made, i=
.e., what to use next. I doubt the market group, you seek, even shops on=
EBay, for the/their specific needs you are wanting to sell to them.

If I were to join into a partnership, you darn right I would want to know t=
he whole business plan.... investment $ (my input), startup, evolution, pro=
spective goals for 1 yr, 3 yrs, 5 yrs, and the like,.... etc. Not that you=
have to announce them here, but you haven't been clear, at all, as to what=
professional person you need, in order to find out if there's one here, be=
cause you don't know exactly what kind of professional person you need, to =
fill a particular niche. I surmise you don't fully know or understand the=
niche, either, you are wanting to be filled.

I don't see that you have a complete business plan, hence you couldn't pres=
ent one, in the first place. Before seeing a business plan, I'd want to re=
view your market research, as I suspect it may be severely lacking, also.

With that, I don't see your plans as achieving the future goals you aspire =
to.

Sonny

On 5/12/2014 11:24 AM, woodchucker wrote:

> How much volume will you be doing? And what is your expected turnaround
> time frame?

A former band mate, and Asst Engineer in my studio, was (may still be?)
a partner in this:

http://www.novaaudio.com/

Billy and his partners have impeccable credentials in acoustics,
mathematics and engineering. I helped him put together a few speakers in
the early days, almost 20 years ago. We also mixed a couple of albums in
my studio using their products as console reference monitors to give
them some recording industry experience/exposure.

I watched these guys struggle for a number of years, and they still may
be doing so. Tough business in this neck of the woods, or any neck of
the woods from what I've seen. IMO, anyone contemplating getting into
this industry needs to be young, hungry, and ready for some tough
sledding in the early years.

Good luck to the OP ... nothing ventured, nothing gained. But don't
anyone give up their day job (if you are lucky to have one) too soon. ;)

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Jeff

Thanks for the interest

The residential market is a big market, but it does not necessarily have th=
e biggest jobs. At this early stage I am far more comfortable with my abili=
ty to do business with nightclub/bar owners and theaters than I am with res=
idential work. However, that comes from a money standpoint, not a skillset =
standpoint - I can cut and patch drywall as well as the next guy.

I am not so sure about (only) particleboard as a material; take a look at s=
ome of the stuff here. Not saying that these are the best designs necessari=
ly, but to make it on ebay we should be able to do things like that out of =
some nicer-looking hardwoods.

That said, I proposed the loudspeaker thing as a simple expedient by which =
we can make sure that our business styles are 150% compatible rather than a=
long-term business model. If it keeps making money, so much the better.

Re volume, still researching. At an early estimate, if one job takes more than 2 weeks we are doing something wrong. If it takes more than a month we are doing something VERY wrong.

Joe S. wrote:

> Here is my expectation, and please let me know if it is
> unreasonable. I am highly proficient in Autodesk Inventor 3d cad.
> When dealing with woodworkers, I expect to be able to print out
> dimensioned plans, specify either a density for all materials or a
> required supported load (in the case of structural framing) and get
> back a timeframe for cutting and assembly and a price for materials.
---------------------------------------------
None of which has anything to do with running a business.

Lew

Mike

I have been involved in the fora you mentioned on and off for some time. I =
feel like I am pretty familiar with the ecology in question. I have 2 small=
outfits in town that do this kind of work, and they've been circling the d=
rain for years. My considered opinion is that they have the problems that t=
hey have because they have no interest in vertically integrating. If they l=
et money out the door for other people to do their repair, keep buying new =
hardware instead of looking on eBay to see what they can buy used and fix u=
p, and generally refuse to think outside the box in terms of saving money a=
nd looking for new sales avenues, clearly their business will go down the d=
rain. I interned in PRG. They maintain a national operation because they do=
business with _everybody_. They started out doing touring broadway shows, =
transitioned to live music and TV, and were opening a retail design unit (s=
hopping malls etc) while I was there. They were buying smaller shops up on =
a regular basis. If you think you are only doing live bands, or theater sho=
ws, or any one thing, clearly you are a schmuck. But, if you look at the mi=
stakes other people make and learn from them, you can make it happen.

I decided to hang my own shingle - if not immediately then at least 4-5 yea=
rs down the line - the day I gave my final presentation in my business cour=
se in school. My entire workgroup failed to show up and I still got the bes=
t grade in the course. I don't need to take a college class to know what is=
, and is not, a business proposition.

Good to know, that there a re plenty of audio guys here. Makes my life much=
easier talking to everybody.

Mike

Here is the basic reason I believe that the studio business sucks;

http://76.74.24.142/2463566A-FF96-E0CA-2766-72779A364D01.pdf

http://blog.thecurrent.org/2014/02/40-years-of-album-sales-data-in-one-hand=
y-chart/

Basically the problem is that the herd of dinosaurs that comprise the recor=
d industry have barely gotten a handle on online sales and they've been ste=
amrolled (again) by streaming services.

Recorded music is a global business because the product comes to the custom=
er. Live music is a local business because the customer comes to the produc=
t. If I am extremely lucky I may see my business go national in my lifetime=
. I'm not really holding my breath. I'll be perfectly happy working long ho=
urs in a local business until I retire, and frankly I'm not all that intere=
sted in retirement anyhow. If my brain is ok and I can hold a solder iron I=
can keep working.

Bill

So, there is no table out there for wood density?

But, it is an easy problem to solve, just make a water displacement test

Guys

Thanks again for the interest, and sorry if I was a little short on info la=
st night. It was kind of a long day.

The general idea is to put together a full-service audiovisual sales and re=
ntal operation, focusing on the entertainment industry. That said, I am in =
the early stages of market research; corporate work may be more lucrative.

I've been doing a/v work for about 5 years, focusing on audio. I have stron=
g electronics-fu and can repair pretty much any audiovisual hardware you th=
row at me (I don't have a reflow oven in my basement so there's certain stu=
ff I simply won't bother with). However, to chase the really big-ticket wor=
k I need to have a very tight relationship with somebody who understands ar=
chitectural framing and joinery. Easy enough to demonstrate mathematically =
that hanging a speaker off a load-bearing beam will not hurt the structure;=
somewhat tougher to make the city building inspector believe it.

To take a far simpler example; I can obtain, at fairly short notice, a soft=
ware package to design advanced custom loudspeaker systems. Actually buildi=
ng them is where you guys come in. Selling custom speakers on ebay strikes =
me as a great low-voltage starting point for a business relationship. After=
we do that for a little bit we can consider where we want to go next.

Again, not that I want to be closemouthed about what I'm trying to do but t=
here are just certain topics I am not comfortable discussing on an "open li=
ne", so to speak. I'll gladly tell you anything you want to know over email=
.

On 5/13/2014 6:05 PM, Morgans wrote:

> That has me curious. If not MDF for speaker boxes nowadays, what?
> Composite plastics?

Exactly, or synthetic woods. Although it depends somewhat upon the
speaker and its use. MDF is still used, as well as a void free plywood,
like Baltic Birch plywood for PA applications. Composite
materials/thermoplastic polymers with glass reinforced plastic fibers
that mimic wood, especially for designs that use computers to design and
manufacture speaker shapes that can't be done with wood.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 5/12/2014 12:15 PM, Joe S. wrote:
> Guys
>
> Thanks again for the interest, and sorry if I was a little short on info last night. It was kind of a long day.
>
> The general idea is to put together a full-service audiovisual sales and rental operation, focusing on the entertainment industry. That said, I am in the early stages of market research; corporate work may be more lucrative.
>
> I've been doing a/v work for about 5 years, focusing on audio. I have strong electronics-fu and can repair pretty much any audiovisual hardware you throw at me (I don't have a reflow oven in my basement so there's certain stuff I simply won't bother with). However, to chase the really big-ticket work I need to have a very tight relationship with somebody who understands architectural framing and joinery. Easy enough to demonstrate mathematically that hanging a speaker off a load-bearing beam will not hurt the structure; somewhat tougher to make the city building inspector believe it.
>
> To take a far simpler example; I can obtain, at fairly short notice, a software package to design advanced custom loudspeaker systems. Actually building them is where you guys come in. Selling custom speakers on ebay strikes me as a great low-voltage starting point for a business relationship. After we do that for a little bit we can consider where we want to go next.
>
> Again, not that I want to be closemouthed about what I'm trying to do but there are just certain topics I am not comfortable discussing on an "open line", so to speak. I'll gladly tell you anything you want to know over email.
>

Sounds like you are asking for 2 things.

One to do a builtin.
One to build speakers.

Speakers are built with particle board (heavy) to get a consistent
sound, and they are veneered. While veneering is not difficult, it can
be quite expensive to get the veneers desired in quantities to support
small runs. I assume you are making small custom runs to pick out the look.

Building the speaker is a box.. Unless you require baffling.

The builtin, is quite different. I assume you will be matching finishes
in high end homes. That in itself can be quite difficult to match
existing finishes.


How much volume will you be doing? And what is your expected turnaround
time frame?



--
Jeff

The worst case scenario is, there are certain jobs we cannot bid. OK, we will bid the jobs we can bit, as long as we can bid the majpority of available jobs.

Swingman

Trust me, I know exactly how bad the high-end/studio business sucks right n=
ow. That is exactly why my strategic focus is on sales/install to large ven=
ues. As I mentioned in my reply to Jeff, the custom speakers bit is really =
a way to make sure everybody is on the same page business-wise before we ge=
t into too much time/money.

> You will probably need a licensed professional engineer to sign
>
> off on it.


I have a few guys in mind. My math and physics skills greatly reduce their workload and my cost.

Mike

Sorry if I'm being unclear in anything whatsoever. I assure you it's not in=
tentional.

>the phrase "circling the drain" can have many meaings=20
>=20
> to me, so it's nebulous.

OK, the guy I was in touch with most recently, basically said he had had no=
business whatsoever the entire winter. This is certainly no place I want t=
o be.



> Case in point - what does the term "vertically integrating" mean?=20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_integration
=20


> Sounds good as a marketing slide but contains absolutely no real content=
=20
>=20
> Joe. =20

I'm sorry, again - perhaps we mean different things by "real content". If o=
ne guy does his own repair and another guy pays somebody else to do his rep=
air, then guy 1 will have more money in his bank account than guy 2, right?

Likewise, if guy 1 does business with only bars and nightclubs whereas guy =
2 does business with bars and nightclubs and churches and theaters, guy 2 w=
ill make more money.

> And that by itself is an unfair statement to you, since your post=20
>=20
> never even really tried to go this deep. I'm just trying to haul you bac=
k=20
>=20
> up to the level of your original post and not sprial down into other=20
>=20
> discussions.

As I said, please ask me anything you'd like to know specifically. Some thi=
ngs I will only answer by email, but I will answer all your questions to th=
e best of my ability. In fact I suggest that we move this discussion to ema=
il immediately.


>=20
> I'm sorry, but the above just does not make any sense to me. What is it =
you=20
>=20
> are really trying to say. Slow down Joe...

I have 2 businesses in town who in my opinion are doing it wrong. I would l=
ike to do it right. In this case , this means not doing what they are doing=
.

> This is not a business planning newsgroup. =20

Again, sorry if i'm slow, but perhaps you could be more specific about the =
specific input. As far as I can see I had one guy say something regarding a=
ctual lumber that you (correctly) shot down. I responded to a)your suggesti=
ons that I should visit audio fora and b) your question "Do you really unde=
rstand anything about the business you are trying to get into?" Incidentall=
y, I agree with your assessment that engineers are poor marketing guys. Tha=
t is why I am doing extensive market research and constantly looking for sa=
les staff. I don't know how to close a deal in 15 minutes, but I know exact=
ly how to build a business relationship.

>you've kinda yanked them outside of their area of expertise.

Here is my expectation, and please let me know if it is unreasonable. I am =
highly proficient in Autodesk Inventor 3d cad. When dealing with woodworker=
s, I expect to be able to print out dimensioned plans, specify either a den=
sity for all materials or a required supported load (in the case of structu=
ral framing) and get back a timeframe for cutting and assembly and a price =
for materials.

Thank you very much for taking the time to try and figure out the details o=
f my business ideas. I realize that many people charge money for services l=
ike this, and I hope I can help you out with something in the future.

Sorry, wrec?

Re my credentials, I'm basically an AV tech who's back in school to get an ee degree. I'll go into alot more detail with interested parties, but if anybody has any questions feel free to ask. I just may not always answer :).

Thanks again

Joe

On 5/12/2014 12:19 PM, Joe S. wrote:
> Swingman
>
> Trust me, I know exactly how bad the high-end/studio business sucks right now.

Trust me, my post was solely for the benefit of those who routinely
participate in, and know what the "wrec" is. ;)

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 12 May 2014 14:17:08 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
<[email protected]> wrote:

(snip)
>
>Hey Joe - Sorry. I'll go back to my original
>point which is to encourage you to look beyond a woodworking newsgroup for
>more and better information, as you build your business plan.


rec.audio.pro would be a good group to check out for this.

Joe S. wrote:
> Howdy folks
>
> I'm trying to start a small business which will have a major woodworking component. I recently pretty much lost my first client because the guy I found on Craigslist decided to flake out on me (yeah, I know, going on Craigslist was my first mistake). Even if I had the time to learn this stuff for myself, I really don't have the real estate or budget for floor machines right now. So, I'm looking for somebody whom I can make an equal partner for the long haul.

Maybe it will get someone's attention if you share some of your
credentials. Are you a long-time reader of the wrec?


>
> The right person will
>
> -be interested in starting a new business
> -be familiar with millwork and cabinetry as well as architectural framing, and have the hardware to handle (basic) millowrk.
> -have a little more time on their hands than they really want
>
> 3 business contact references are A MUST. Once bitten, twice shy.
>
> Love of live music of any kind is a big plus.
>
> reply to donovandigital at gmail
>
> Many thanks in advance to any interested parties
>
> Joe Stavitsky

Joe S. wrote:
> Guys
>
> Thanks again for the interest, and sorry if I was a little short on
> info last night. It was kind of a long day.
>
> The general idea is to put together a full-service audiovisual sales
> and rental operation, focusing on the entertainment industry. That
> said, I am in the early stages of market research; corporate work may
> be more lucrative.
>
> I've been doing a/v work for about 5 years, focusing on audio. I have
> strong electronics-fu and can repair pretty much any audiovisual
> hardware you throw at me (I don't have a reflow oven in my basement
> so there's certain stuff I simply won't bother with). However, to
> chase the really big-ticket work I need to have a very tight
> relationship with somebody who understands architectural framing and
> joinery. Easy enough to demonstrate mathematically that hanging a
> speaker off a load-bearing beam will not hurt the structure; somewhat
> tougher to make the city building inspector believe it.
>
> To take a far simpler example; I can obtain, at fairly short notice,
> a software package to design advanced custom loudspeaker systems.
> Actually building them is where you guys come in. Selling custom
> speakers on ebay strikes me as a great low-voltage starting point for
> a business relationship. After we do that for a little bit we can
> consider where we want to go next.
>
> Again, not that I want to be closemouthed about what I'm trying to do
> but there are just certain topics I am not comfortable discussing on
> an "open line", so to speak. I'll gladly tell you anything you want
> to know over email.

There are some great live sound newsgroups and forums on the net that would
probably make a better place for you to start. These guys can really speak
to your business plan and the realities of the things you speak of above. I
believe you will find that the guys with the stripes on their sleeves and
the scars on their asses are going to tell you that it's not as rich a field
as you may currently envision.

So - as a guy that has some experience on both sides of this discussion... I
suggest you start with the sound guys and worry about the woodworking side
after. I doubt you'll decide to go that far.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

woodchucker wrote:

>
> Sounds like you are asking for 2 things.
>
> One to do a builtin.
> One to build speakers.
>
> Speakers are built with particle board (heavy) to get a consistent
> sound, and they are veneered. While veneering is not difficult, it can
> be quite expensive to get the veneers desired in quantities to support
> small runs. I assume you are making small custom runs to pick out the
> look.

Nope Jeff - not by a mile. Yes - to build a cabinet that will make sound is
that simple, but to build cabinets that will make professional sound is
something quite different. These are engineered products - and not
woodworking engineering. Sound is a very complex field.

>
> Building the speaker is a box.. Unless you require baffling.

Wrong. By a mile.

>
> The builtin, is quite different. I assume you will be matching
> finishes in high end homes. That in itself can be quite difficult to match
> existing finishes.

You're speaking strictly from a woodworking perspective Jeff. That
perspective completely ignores, or misses the accoustic perspective. Like I
said - this stuff is a science.

>
>
> How much volume will you be doing? And what is your expected
> turnaround time frame?

That question all by itself reveals the woodworker's lack of familiarity
with the issue. The OP really needs to be talking to pro-sound groups (at
least) simultaneously with woodworking groups. Hell - he really does not
even need to be talking to woodworking groups - no need for wood enclosures
anymore.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Joe S. wrote:
> Swingman
>
> Trust me, I know exactly how bad the high-end/studio business sucks
> right now. That is exactly why my strategic focus is on sales/install
> to large venues. As I mentioned in my reply to Jeff, the custom
> speakers bit is really a way to make sure everybody is on the same
> page business-wise before we get into too much time/money.

Perhaps you have a new and revolutionary idea but... how is it you say that
high-end/studio business sucks right now? Do you really understand anything
about the business you are trying to get into?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Joe S. wrote:
> Re volume, still researching. At an early estimate, if one job takes
> more than 2 weeks we are doing something wrong. If it takes more than
> a month we are doing something VERY wrong.

Then you are targeting very small - read... not-so-profitable. Go after
whatever you wish, but my advice (for whatever it is worth...) is that you
will just be wasting money. It is becoming clear that your business plan is
based more upon your own ideas than it is on the realities of the market
that spends the money you are trying to capture. Engineers seldom make good
sales/marketing guys...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Joe S. wrote:
> Mike
>
> I have been involved in the fora you mentioned on and off for some
> time. I feel like I am pretty familiar with the ecology in question.
> I have 2 small outfits in town that do this kind of work, and they've
> been circling the drain for years.

As this progresses - I'm having trouble follwing your phrases. Though they
may make sense to you, the phrase "circling the drain" can have many meaings
to me, so it's nebulous.


My considered opinion is that they
> have the problems that they have because they have no interest in
> vertically integrating.

Case in point - what does the term "vertically integrating" mean? Not just
to you and I in this conversations, but to your future customer? Also...
not to be insulting... but the phrase "in my considered opinion" might be
something you want to check at the door as you work on exploring and
building a business plan. That's a great starting point, but it's also one
that has to quickly be put on the shelf as one undertakes honest business
analysis.


If they let money out the door for other
> people to do their repair, keep buying new hardware instead of
> looking on eBay to see what they can buy used and fix up, and
> generally refuse to think outside the box in terms of saving money
> and looking for new sales avenues, clearly their business will go
> down the drain. I interned in PRG.

Sounds good as a marketing slide but contains absolutely no real content
Joe. And that by itself is an unfair statement to you, since your post
never even really tried to go this deep. I'm just trying to haul you back
up to the level of your original post and not sprial down into other
discussions.


They maintain a national operation
> because they do business with _everybody_. They started out doing
> touring broadway shows, transitioned to live music and TV, and were
> opening a retail design unit (shopping malls etc) while I was there.
> They were buying smaller shops up on a regular basis. If you think
> you are only doing live bands, or theater shows, or any one thing,
> clearly you are a schmuck. But, if you look at the mistakes other
> people make and learn from them, you can make it happen.

I'm sorry, but the above just does not make any sense to me. What is it you
are really trying to say. Slow down Joe...

>
> I decided to hang my own shingle - if not immediately then at least
> 4-5 years down the line - the day I gave my final presentation in my
> business course in school. My entire workgroup failed to show up and
> I still got the best grade in the course. I don't need to take a
> college class to know what is, and is not, a business proposition.

Ok - yeah - wonderful - bullshit. So - you're proud of yourself - that's
ok. But Joe - ferchristssake... go back and re-read this thread. You posed
a question. You received some direct input. None of that took you to this
point. This is not a business planning newsgroup. We really don't need to
or care to hear about your college experiences, unless you'd like to hear
about ours - which probably included more naked women that yours did! Of
course, we do enjoy reliving those days for those showing any interest...

>
> Good to know, that there a re plenty of audio guys here. Makes my
> life much easier talking to everybody.

There are not plenty of audio guys here. There are a small handful. There
are a lot of very knowlegable woodworkers that will talk about cabinets, but
most of those really do not understand building speaker cabinets, or
anything else associated with the requirements of sound reinforcement.
Great and knowlegable guys all the same, but you've kinda yanked them
outside of their area of expertise.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Joe S. wrote:
> Mike
>
> Here is the basic reason I believe that the studio business sucks;
>
> http://76.74.24.142/2463566A-FF96-E0CA-2766-72779A364D01.pdf
>
> http://blog.thecurrent.org/2014/02/40-years-of-album-sales-data-in-one-handy-chart/
>
> Basically the problem is that the herd of dinosaurs that comprise the
> record industry have barely gotten a handle on online sales and
> they've been steamrolled (again) by streaming services.
>
> Recorded music is a global business because the product comes to the
> customer. Live music is a local business because the customer comes
> to the product. If I am extremely lucky I may see my business go
> national in my lifetime. I'm not really holding my breath. I'll be
> perfectly happy working long hours in a local business until I
> retire, and frankly I'm not all that interested in retirement anyhow.
> If my brain is ok and I can hold a solder iron I can keep working.

Hey Joe - I kinda fart around in this group during the day, as it happens.
I have a day job so I can't really devote any time to chasing links to dig
into the esoteric issues like this. Sorry. I'll go back to my original
point which is to encourage you to look beyond a woodworking newsgroup for
more and better information, as you build your business plan. I really wish
you the best of luck but right now, I think you might just well have the
cart before the horse.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Joe S. wrote:
> Guys
>
> Thanks again for the interest, and sorry if I was a little short on info last night. It was kind of a long day.
>
> The general idea is to put together a full-service audiovisual sales and rental operation, focusing on the entertainment industry. That said, I am in the early stages of market research; corporate work may be more lucrative.
>
> I've been doing a/v work for about 5 years, focusing on audio. I have strong electronics-fu and can repair pretty much any audiovisual hardware you throw at me (I don't have a reflow oven in my basement so there's certain stuff I simply won't bother with). However, to chase the really big-ticket work I need to have a very tight relationship with somebody who understands architectural framing and joinery. Easy enough to demonstrate mathematically that hanging a speaker off a load-bearing beam will not hurt the structure; somewhat tougher to make the city building inspector believe it.

You will probably need a licensed professional engineer to sign
off on it.

>
> To take a far simpler example; I can obtain, at fairly short notice, a software package to design advanced custom loudspeaker systems. Actually building them is where you guys come in. Selling custom speakers on ebay strikes me as a great low-voltage starting point for a business relationship. After we do that for a little bit we can consider where we want to go next.
>
> Again, not that I want to be closemouthed about what I'm trying to do but there are just certain topics I am not comfortable discussing on an "open line", so to speak. I'll gladly tell you anything you want to know over email.

Joe S. wrote:
> Here is my expectation, and please let me know if it is unreasonable.
> I am highly proficient in Autodesk Inventor 3d cad. When dealing with
> woodworkers, I expect to be able to print out dimensioned plans,
> specify either a density for all materials or a required supported
> load (in the case of structural framing) and get back a timeframe for
> cutting and assembly and a price for materials.

Engineers can specify materials that will meet your requirements.
Woodworkers (doing unusual projects like this) will build to spec.
Homebuilders surely know a bit more. At least that is my take on things.
Good luck!

Bill



> Thank you very much for taking the time to try and figure out the
> details of my business ideas. I realize that many people charge money
> for services like this, and I hope I can help you out with something
> in the future.

Joe S. wrote:
> Bill
>
> So, there is no table out there for wood density?
>
> But, it is an easy problem to solve, just make a water displacement test

In a major sports arena recently, a large board fell from the ceiling
into the bleachers. Fortunately, there was only a camera there to catch
it on film. They cancelled the "game" that evening pending an
inspection. Think of the liability issues concerning the projects you
are discussing. They may be insurmountable to a small business. Are you
prepared to buy $10 million dollars worth of insurance (I just pulled
that figure out of the air)?

Joe S. wrote:
> It seems I am going about this the wrong way. My expectation was that if I showed up here and people were interested in hearing my propositions - and they had the hardware and skillset I mentioned - they would email me any questions they had.
I think a popular attitude is that if you post a question in a group,
then you should be willing to read the answer there.


> As it stands, I'm kinda fuzzy - do you guys expect to see a complete business plan before you even entertain certain discussions?
I think we've already had some pretty good discussions. Mike Marlow
suggested that there is a lot more to audio acoustics than building a
cabinet, and I think he is right. Lew Hodgett pointed out that there is
more to running a business than meets the eye. There were more comments
than I can remember at the moment. I'm sure you can contract all of the
additional "skills" and expertise you require locally. Why not try
playing the role of "general contractor" and see what happens. Even if
it costs you money, I think you'll come out ahead. Do some painting and
drywall at the same time, so you can keep busy where you're not working
on your ee degree, and maybe make a few bucks.


> If so, then no problem, I will come back here when I have one ready. On the other hand, if any of you guys want to get some relatively small (and pretty much risk-free) work done, split the profits, and make sure I have 2 brain cells to rub together as a fringe benefit, we could do that too. Option B would certainly make me more comfortable with putting the time into completing a business plan writeup.
>
> I am curious - I realize I haven't linked to any of my work or my resume, but what in particular made anyone think that I was not aware of rec.audio.pro? More to the point, why should I expect useful advice (much less encouragement) from people whom I expect to be my direct competition?

Joe S. wrote:
> It seems I am going about this the wrong way. My expectation was that
> if I showed up here and people were interested in hearing my
> propositions - and they had the hardware and skillset I mentioned -
> they would email me any questions they had. As it stands, I'm kinda
> fuzzy - do you guys expect to see a complete business plan before you
> even entertain certain discussions? If so, then no problem, I will
> come back here when I have one ready. On the other hand, if any of
> you guys want to get some relatively small (and pretty much
> risk-free) work done, split the profits, and make sure I have 2 brain
> cells to rub together as a fringe benefit, we could do that too.
> Option B would certainly make me more comfortable with putting the
> time into completing a business plan writeup.

Hey Joe - I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect most here would feel
at least similar to how I feel. Some have actually stated their positions
already. As for me, my contributions to your dialog yesterday was an
interesting diversion that maybe might benefit you with some things I had to
offer, or maybe not. But - they were short lived because I'm not a guy
who's going to invest time or money into an endeavor like this. I wish you
the best - and I do believe people can be successful where others have
either struggled or failed, before them, so I try not to squash dreams. I
had a couple of passing thoughts that I felt might be of worth to you, so I
shared them - for whatever they were worth. That's about as far as it goes
for me. Good luck in your pursuit.

>
> I am curious - I realize I haven't linked to any of my work or my
> resume, but what in particular made anyone think that I was not aware
> of rec.audio.pro? More to the point, why should I expect useful
> advice (much less encouragement) from people whom I expect to be my
> direct competition?

The audio newsgroup that I am familiar with is alt.audio.pro.live-sound -
don't know anything about rec.audio.pro. aapls can be a tough playground
sometimes, but it is a place that is full of expert advice in all aspects of
the audio business - and some video. To your question - you might be
surprised at just how much free useful advice you can get there, even though
you expect to be a competitor. Just put your thick skin on before you tread
into those waters - there can be some grizzly characters there...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>

> That question all by itself reveals the woodworker's lack of familiarity
> with the issue. The OP really needs to be talking to pro-sound groups (at
> least) simultaneously with woodworking groups. Hell - he really does not
> even need to be talking to woodworking groups - no need for wood
> enclosures anymore.
>
>
That has me curious. If not MDF for speaker boxes nowadays, what?
Composite plastics?
--
Jim in NC


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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Morgans wrote:
> "Mike Marlow" <[email protected]>
>
>> That question all by itself reveals the woodworker's lack of
>> familiarity with the issue. The OP really needs to be talking to
>> pro-sound groups (at least) simultaneously with woodworking groups.
>> Hell - he really does not even need to be talking to woodworking
>> groups - no need for wood enclosures anymore.
>>
>>
> That has me curious. If not MDF for speaker boxes nowadays, what?
> Composite plastics?

For the kind of speakers he is talking about - yes... maybe. Today's
composits make for very good solutions - which is why I suggest he
investigagte further. To be fair - as do solid wood, plywood and
chipboard - but it's much more about the resonanat frequencies, etc. than it
is about the wood. That's why I was trying to make the woodworking aspedt
secondary to his other considerations,

As for MDF - as a structural member, it poses some unique considerations
when it comes to hanging them, etc. Not something that can't be oversome,
but still something that has to be considered when one is accustomed to
working with any wood structure.

As for the whole matter - I just wonder if there is really any room left to
fight head to head with the big names that have already moved beyond the
craftmanship stage of things, and are now at the comodity stage of things.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Joe S. wrote:
>> You will probably need a licensed professional engineer to sign
>>
>> off on it.
>
> I have a few guys in mind. My math and physics skills greatly reduce their workload and my cost.

I would believe that if you can do your own drawing. Then you would just
need to pay them to approve it.

On 5/12/2014 12:38 AM, Joe S. wrote:
>
> Sorry, wrec?
>
> Re my credentials, I'm basically an AV tech who's back in school to get an ee degree. I'll go into alot more detail with interested parties,

Any details at all would be nice.



but if anybody has any questions feel free to ask. I just may not always
answer :).


I'm thinking that any one wanting me to go into business with "me" needs
to show an interest in answering any questions immediately.


>
> Thanks again
>
> Joe
>

On Sun, 11 May 2014 22:38:02 -0700 (PDT), "Joe S."
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Sorry, wrec?
>
> if anybody has any questions feel free to ask. I just may not always answer :).
>
>Thanks again

You're welcome, but count me out.