Re: Designing a work table

On 5/7/2012 12:20 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Swingman wrote:
>
>>
>> The difference between mediocrity and supremacy is attention to
>> detail; and that detail is the essence of what a plan/design provides.
>>
>
> For some things - agreed. Very much so. For other things - not so much.
> Some things are purely utilitarian, and detail be damned. For example - I
> need a sawhorse now. I can spend all kinds of time designing and creating
> the perfect sawhorse, or I can crudely knock one together to get the job
> done. Who really cares if it has any usefullness beyond the next 20 hours?
> I simply need to get this done. So - there is a simple case where ability
> and capability, accompanied by a modicum of experience, result in perfection
> in time of need. Not at all elegant. Might even end up in the burn pile at
> the end. So what? Didn't need art.
>
>> You just described the importance of using a design tool, which was
>> why it was so exciting to me to get my hands on an easy to use design
>> tool like Sketchup when it first became available.
>
> Inarguable when it comes to the stuff you normall deal in. Different
> though, when dealing with utilitarian stuff.
>
>>
>> Make a detailed plan, and execute the plan, and you can win wars and
>> build skyscrapers.
>
> Only if the skyscraper actually ever begins to be built.

Perfect examples why you will never win a war, or build a skyscraper. :)

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Bill wrote:
> FrozenNorth wrote:
>> On 5/10/12 2:05 PM, Bill wrote:
>> I'm not sure of best sort of screw for fastening two 2by4s
>>> together. I assume that when folks said "screws not nails" that they
>>> didn't mean lag bolts, but I guess that gives me new homework to do!
>>>
>> Good Lord, buy some deck screws and call it a day.
>>
>
> Thank you Froze! I wasn't sure if deck screws had enough
> shear-strength, but I trust you.

Wayyyyyyyy more than you need for this application. This is where the kind
of stuff that gets bantered about here can get you into trouble. Shear
strength has its place, but just don't let that crap take on a life of its
own Bill. Spend a couple off hours in the evening doing some google time
researching shear strength. Not the engineering of it, but to gain an
understanding of when you need to worry about it and when you just need to
think about sticking two pieces of wood together.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> I spent a lot of time reading on the matter last night. Carrier
> practically regards specifications of their parts as proprietary!
>
> In the end, the model# of the fan motor in the unit, which to my
> surprise was not original, was the way that the supplier helped me
> choose a motor (I had detailed all of the specifications from it).
>
> If anyone reading would be interested in helping me with my checklist,
> here is what it looks like, to me, that I need to do (I hope you'll
> correct me if if looks like I'm confused, I mean more than usual %-)
>

Geeze Bill - why wouldn't you take this to an appropriate newsgroup? Or
look up a youtube video?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:
> On 5/7/2012 12:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Perfect examples why you will never win a war, or build a
>>> skyscraper. :)
>>
>> I have done the equivelent of both by knowing when to think too much
>> and when to act. I know you too well now Karl - and I know that you
>> too have figured this out. But - that is not coming through in your
>> posts. Come on - you've never - or you don't hack a quick fix
>> together to get you through something? I'm going to call bullshit
>> on you on that one.
>
> Once again, we're not even discussing the same thing. Arguing with the
> setting goals of through detailed plans and design doesn't diminish
> the goals, it diminishes you.

If we are not discussing the same thing, then it is you who distracted the
conversation Karl. I was very clear in what I posted to Bill, and you took
exception to it, and threw in the zinger that I've never won battles or
built skyscrapers. That part might well be examined by you.

I never argued with the setting of goals, and for you to say that is nothing
short of bullshit. I'll take my lumps when I screw up but not when someone
twists my words.

If anyone is diminished in this it's you for not affording the intellectual
credit to the conversation as it has been played out.

So - is this just your turn in the barrel?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> Put me down as a believer. I'm struggling to convert the masses.

So - the guy who has not put nail to wood is attempting to convert the
masses? Silly.

> I
> think it's a great deal easier to become a believer AFTER you've
> learned your way around SU a bit.

That's a fine belief, but how do you really expect to convince people who
actually perform the work you dream of, without all of that elaborate
planning?

> Everytime I use SU, it shows me my
> technique isn't all that good, but that's a work in progress! %-)

Wait until you discover what your hammer and your saw actually show you.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Leon wrote:

>
> I wonder what length screw Bill is going to use, yellow or green? :~)

You are very bad sir...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

> Somehow it didn't occur to me until now that, in this project, EVERY
> ONE of my screws will be attaching 2by-materials to 4by4s.

With all of that planning and Sketchup work? Bill... shame on you...

> I
> exchanged my deck screws for 3" ones today, but I will get longer
> ones if that may give better performance.

Please don't. 2 1/2 would have done the job just fine, but the 3" will work
fine as well. Just... Do it!

> I would rather swap them
> now than have something become loose. What would be best? Box of
> screws says, "pre-drilling recommended". Just drill 2/3 of the way,
> right?

Drill through holes in the piecres you will be attaching to the 4x4. Then
just run them in. Did you not read the post I made about this very thing?

>
> I'm glad to own a DW 10-Amp drill. It would be nice if it had a
> clutch, but it makes easy work of long screws! It's among my "Best
> Bang for the buck" tools, with my Sears ShopVac at the top!
>

I will be enough for the task at hand. That's no super drill, but it should
serve you well for a long time.


> I'm looking forward to having a sturdy bench with a vise--projects
> await!

We're looking forward to you getting it done and posting pictures.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

tiredofspam wrote:

> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>
> JUST DO IT
>
> right?
>
> JUST DO IT!
>

Ugh-oh... I'm going to get blamed for this post...

Oh well, since I am, I'll just echo the sentiment!

Do it and learn from it!

There - I feel better now...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> I've used a hammer and nail, just to help the drill start in the right
> place--I've found it has some tendency to twist away from where you
> point it!
>

Hey Bill - you are not building a replica of a french table here. Just
drill the hole with what ever you have. Hell - I could cut that hole with a
jack knife and be close enough. Really - any wander you get, or any other
amount of imprecise product you end up with, is going to be moot. You are
(yet again...) spending too much time thinking about things. If you would
just put tool to wood, you would discover the answers to so many of the
things you keep berating this group with. So what if you screw up? Just
fix it and move on. You are building a simple table here and despite all of
your planning and Sketchuping and all that other crap - what could have and
should have been knocked together in a couple of hours, has now gone on for
weeks. Do you ever get off the dime?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

> I will report, they handed me a real "Can of Sh#&" at the newsgroup
> alt.hvac. Insiders only welcome, evidently. Some apparently want to
> hold their professional "Guild" together. It wouldn't be hard to find
> the thread I started there if you are curious.
>

I went and looked Bill and it sure looks to me like The Daring Dufas gave
you very good and courteyous advice. Steve was a dick, to be sure, but I
would not categorize the treatment you received in that group by his
response. Looks to me like you got some pretty good treatment - outside of
Steve's. Certainly not an insiders only welcomed type of forum. I can
understand your reaction to Steve's post, but I think you are doing the rest
of the group a disservice, especially considering the advice you were freely
given.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On Mon, 07 May 2012 23:45:38 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>Bill wrote:
>
>> I'll be able to get back to ww stuff soon.
>>
>> The AC broke today (only blows room temperature air). But, I'm a little
>> ahead of the game this year, compared to last year when it also broke
>> (twice: solenoid and a pin-hole leak). I had mentioned it last year,
>> else I wouldn't have brought it up. I just examined the solenoid, and it
>> is not "split" like last year, so it's time to call a pro.
>
>
>Anyway, for my $90 diagnostic inspection, the Heating & AC pro deduced
>that the fan motor is froze (i.e. broken). This is the fan motor that
>sits right on top of the unit, attached to the underside of the cover.
>
>After sitting in his truck for a quite a while, he came out and said it
>would be $725 more to fix it. He suggested I consider buying a new unit
>instead of putting so much money into an 11 year old unit. He had no
>idea how much that would cost (but eventually he said $5K-10K), but he
>could have his salespeople out tomorrow.

My neighbor just had a 30 y/o fan motor replaced for $500 last month.
The guy had to dismantle the whole system to get to it, so I could
understand the $225 labor fee. The motor was $275. WE are in the
wrong business, Bill.


>Concerning the motor, he would not separate parts from labor, had no
>idea how much the parts actually cost, and would not even wave the $90
>inspection fee if I paid the $725. I'm not really faulting him for the
>first two, I'm just sayin' (they must not need the work very bad).

Would he waive it even if he didn't wave it? <titter>


>So I told him I would try to replace the motor myself.
>
>Maybe God is guiding me to do electrical work instead of woodworking? : )

Uh, right, but can we see your 623 page detailed plan on doing the
repair before you do it, please? Thanks.


>Over $500 to install a motor I can see (it's not like it's hidden behing
>an alternator)? Grumble, grumble, $%#@#@!!!
>
>It felt strange to pass on the repair, but I have no regrets so far.
>So far it's hot, but nice not feeling like a victim. He wasn't going
>to replace it today anyway, so I'd still be hot! : )

When you get there, make sure it's not just the squirrel cage screw
which had come loose and allowed the cage to get hung, causing an
apparent motor freezeup. My new Carrier Infinity had that problem a
few months old, but it wobbled and vibrated instead of hanging. That
whole 1500s/f system was $6k installed. The house had baseboard
heaters and no fans before that. It's 96% efficient, has A/C and
everything. I love it!

--
Most powerful is he who has himself in his own power.
-- Seneca

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I spent a lot of time reading on the matter last night. Carrier
>>> practically regards specifications of their parts as proprietary!
>>>
>>> In the end, the model# of the fan motor in the unit, which to my
>>> surprise was not original, was the way that the supplier helped me
>>> choose a motor (I had detailed all of the specifications from it).
>>>
>>> If anyone reading would be interested in helping me with my
>>> checklist, here is what it looks like, to me, that I need to do (I
>>> hope you'll correct me if if looks like I'm confused, I mean more
>>> than usual %-)
>>
>> Geeze Bill - why wouldn't you take this to an appropriate newsgroup?
>> Or look up a youtube video?
>>
>
> Geeze Mike, Don't be so sensitive. I don't read any other newsgroups.

Maybe you should Bill. This is not an air conditioning newsgroup.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Joe <Joe@Joe'sPlace.com wrote:
>> I'm in the process of doing the same thing.
>>
>> I'm using a plan
>> fromhttp://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/206/heavy-duty-workbench.pdf
>> with slight modifications. Mine will be wall mounted, a couple
>> of inches higher, have two shelves, and go all the way to the floor to
>> keep out dust and critters. There's also a video available. Panels on
>> the
>> sides provide stability. See the picture in the a.b.pictures.woodworking
>> group.
>>
>> A fancier version using the same design but out of maple and with
>> drawers is in Woodsmith - 133 - Feb 2001 - Heavy Duty Workbench.
>>
>> Your plan looks top-heavy and like it might stand a good chance of
>> racking,
>> especially after mounting a vise. I think stretchers like are shown on
>> the plan
>> would work better. If it's wall mounted, that may solve it, depending on
>> how
>> you mount it. See also the picture of how Woodsmith mounts a machinist's
>> vise to the same table.
>> -J
>>
>
> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I believe.
>
> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a chisel?
> No replies from any SS owners please! : )

I have made a ton of things with lap joints. I used both radial arm saws
and circular saws. If you make enough cuts, almost nothing is left in the
bottom of the joint. Any chisel work is just to clean it up and make it
absolutely flat. But if you do a good enough job with the cuts, almost
nothing is left to smooth out.

"Lee Michaels" wrote:

> I have made a ton of things with lap joints. I used both radial arm
> saws and circular saws. If you make enough cuts, almost nothing is
> left in the bottom of the joint. Any chisel work is just to clean
> it up and make it absolutely flat. But if you do a good enough job
> with the cuts, almost nothing is left to smooth out.

------------------------------------
A blade with a flat top grind makes life easier.

Lew

"tiredofspam" wrote:

> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>
> JUST DO IT
>
> right?
>
> JUST DO IT!
--------------------------------------
Then Bill would have to quit "window shopping" and start spending some
money.

It isn't ever going to happen.

Lew

tiredofspam <nospam.nospam.com> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

*snip*

>
> You learn to hide, or enhance it. Sometimes you take a different tack...
> But you'll never learn until you do. And after a while it will become
> second nature. You'll find yourself not thinking about it, just doing
> it. Along the road you will feel very good when you complete a process
> and it went well and looks well.
>

*snip*

Sometimes the best place to hide a mistake is in plain sight. Just leave
it there and don't advertise it.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> tiredofspam wrote:
>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>
>> JUST DO IT
>
>
> One thing I try to impress upon my students is
>
> Design, Design, Design!
>
> Some of them don't understand, so I may explain with more emphasis:
>
> Design, Design, Design, Design, Design, Design! (slight exaggeration)
>
> I say, "You're nodding, but I still don't think you appreciate it (what
> is behind the words) enough".
>
> I suggest that when confronted with a job interview, or similar, that
> they could do a lot worse than to reveal a sacred point of view
> regarding design. At least they encountered one person who defended a,
> perhaps, unusually-euphoric reverence for it.
>
> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>
> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it. It is
> interesting to note that, timewise, cutting wood, depending on how one
> defines cutting wood fibers, may amount to less than 1% of a ww
project,
> yet it, the materials, could represent a significant proportion of the
> cost of the project. The woodworking materials may not even be directly
> replaceable. In short, there is probably adequate time to DO IT, after
> one has crafted a design. Of course, as most everyone is aware, design
> can take many forms, such as building a prototype, or involve
practicing
> the unfamiliar, but don't get me started...
>
> Cheers, with a capital D,
> Bill
>

A driver has to deliver packages to points A, B, C, D, E and F. The
route can use any legal street. Calculate the best route. Design 1:
Find the best route between all roads. Design 2: Just do it. Design 3:
Avoid the worst, don't worry about minor inefficiencies.

Results
-------
Design 1: Starts extremly slowly, but extremely efficient when done...
Except locations C and D have moved, E went out of business and A has
sued for failure to comply with the delivery contract.

Design 2: Starts immediately, but is usually rather inefficient. The 20
mile round trip takes 200 miles and two tanks of gas while the driver
attempts to go through a construction zone traffic jam.

Design 3: Starts reasonably quickly, but is usually good enough. The 20
mile round trip takes 25 miles, avoids the traffic jam and the driver is
home in time to watch Roy, Tommy Mac and the guy with the moustache on
Woodsmith Shop.


If you look at your projects as a series of goals, and divide them into
major and minor goals then address the major ones in the design and get
as many of the minor ones in as possible you'll most likely get a good
result. Strive for perfection, but recognize when "good enough" has been
attained and stop there.

Puckdropper

--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> In the case of the "first bench", get a load of nails and 2x6s from Home
> Despot and hammer something vaguely bench-like together and you'll have
> killed two birds. First you'll have a work surface, however crappy, and
> second after you've used it a while you'll have a better idea of what
> you really want.
>
I have built a bunch of these temporary benches over the years. Some of
them are still going after thirty years. They don't die. One idea that
just spontaneously occurred was to put one outside. This becomes a work
surface that is available, when weather permits, and doesn't tie up shop
space. One bench I set up had the top warp a bit. I just took some 2 X 6's
and nailed them on the top it. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. I have also
done this with plywood.

I built a wood box out of 2 X 12's and put a plywood bottom on it. When I
moved I was going to cut it up and burn it. I set it out on the patio in
back and turned it over. It became my outside work bench. I recently
screwed in some deck screws to control some warping on the side. The top is
still good and fairly level. It just keeps going and going. It has been
out there for about seven years now.

Never under estimate the usefulness of simple building materials banged
together for a certain purpose. Every thing you build does not have to be
art or furniture. Sometimes quick and dirty is all that is needed and can
provide some useful support for more complex builds. It can also happen
much more quickly than more complex builds. Saves a bunch of time.

Ok then start a new thread with OT in the subject. :)

John S.

On 05/08/2012 06:56 PM, Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I spent a lot of time reading on the matter last night. Carrier
>>> practically regards specifications of their parts as proprietary!
>>>
>>> In the end, the model# of the fan motor in the unit, which to my
>>> surprise was not original, was the way that the supplier helped me
>>> choose a motor (I had detailed all of the specifications from it).
>>>
>>> If anyone reading would be interested in helping me with my checklist,
>>> here is what it looks like, to me, that I need to do (I hope you'll
>>> correct me if if looks like I'm confused, I mean more than usual %-)
>>>
>>
>> Geeze Bill - why wouldn't you take this to an appropriate newsgroup? Or
>> look up a youtube video?
>>
>
> Geeze Mike, Don't be so sensitive. I don't read any other newsgroups.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> FrozenNorth wrote:
>> On 5/10/12 2:05 PM, Bill wrote:
>>I'm not sure of best sort of screw for fastening two 2by4s
>>> together. I assume that when folks said "screws not nails" that they
>>> didn't mean lag bolts, but I guess that gives me new homework to do!
>>>
>> Good Lord, buy some deck screws and call it a day.
>>
>
> Thank you Froze! I wasn't sure if deck screws had enough
> shear-strength, but I trust you.
>
Deck screws are my go to screw for basic repairs that is not furniture. A
little construction adhesive doesn't hurt either. Or just some generic wood
glue. You can't get much stronger than glue and screw. And lag bolts are
plenty strong. Just a little overkill in this application.

And bump up the edges against something when fastening your legs, etc.
together. Nothing looks tackier than a laminated wood leg that is
misaligned.

People always tell me I use too many screws. Nothing I ever built fell
apart. I build sturdy. Another way to add a little beef (weight) to the
table, without a lot of extra expense, go to 2 X 6's. I rarely use 2 X 4's
for anything any more.

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Swingman wrote:
>> On 5/10/2012 2:25 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>>
>>> People always tell me I use too many screws. Nothing I ever built fell
>>> apart. I build sturdy. Another way to add a little beef (weight) to the
>>> table, without a lot of extra expense, go to 2 X 6's. I rarely use 2 X
>>> 4's for anything any more.
>>
>> Agreed on the deck screws with you and FrozenNorth..
>>
>> I will say if he is planning to build the work table we've been talking
>> about, it is plenty heavy made from 2 x 4's (or with 4 x 4 legs). I have
>> enough trouble moving mine by myself due to its weight, without the top
>> and drawers.
>>
>> Besides, with Bill, another parameter/option may set him back another
>> two weeks in contemplation alone. :)
>
> Please don't interrupt me while I am thinking about my options!
>
> To be honest, I'm was just getting ready to put my shoes on and
> head over to Home Depot. But now there's this 2x6 thing, and glue,
> :: sigh :: , hadn't really considered glue.
>
> I've never countersunk screws before, and I intend to use that technique
> on the top. One thing at a time, maybe I'll come home with most of the
> materials (always fun)! : )
>
> I just need to count up how my screws I need, 4 per joint, and I'll be
> ready to go! :) Can I borrow your calculator? (just kidding)
>
Obviously a newbie. You buy deck screws by the package or the pound. Buy a
bunch. they come in handy for all kinds of things. I don't know how it is
where you are, but I have had bad luck with Home Depot fasteners. I buy
most of my fasteners from the local Ace Hardware. Not only can I buy by the
pound of deck screw, but the quality is much higher. Essentially, they
don't break. That crap I got from Home Depot broke at least every 6 or 7
screws.

And remember, any real man has wood and fasteners laying around to do that
odd job. Are you a real man? ;)

>> Just remember... proper shopping in the big boy's toy store is a
>> requisite 3
>> hour jaunt. Wives do not suffer this well...
-----------------------------

"Bill" wrote:

> Yes, she won't even pass through the doors anymore. If she does
> happen to accompany me, she'll take a book and wait in the car in
> the parking lot. Hard to understand, huh? It was honestly alot
> different at first...
-------------------------------------
She has found someting useful to do while you "Window Shop".

Lew

"Bill" wrote:
>
> Thanks for the tip. Unfortunately, 2 (all?) of our local Ace
> Hardware stores have closed. The Salvation Army has just moved into
> one of the locations. We still have a True Value Hardware store.
>
> I used Home Depot deck screws w/o trouble last year when I made a DP
> base board. OTOH, the drywall knife I bought from them I would call
> junk ($10.99 junk), rust practically grew on it as you watched.
> Knives from Menards and Lowes, much better. Lowes is getting the
> rest of my drywall knife business.
-------------------------------
You want a local hardware store, you are going to have to support
them.

This weekend, rather than going to a big box store, take a $20.00 bill
to the local hardware and spend it.

Won't break the bank and if enough people do it, might help the
hardware store survive.

Lew

"Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> Also, after reading the packaging, wood glue doesn't sound as
> appropriate as "Contructive Adhesive"--Locktite PL-375.
> Clamp and glue, and put in screws after it dries, or sooner?
>
Fasten with screws when glue is wet.

"Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
>
> "Bill" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> Also, after reading the packaging, wood glue doesn't sound as
>> appropriate as "Contructive Adhesive"--Locktite PL-375.
>> Clamp and glue, and put in screws after it dries, or sooner?
>>
> Fasten with screws when glue is wet.
>
>

The screws will act as clamps, holding the pieces tightly together. You
can even remove the screws when done. Most people leave them in for two
reasons: (a) it is somewhat stronger and (b) it's not worth the time to
remove them.

If you don't like the color, paint it.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> I made the Home Depot trip. They stopped selling SYP, and, since I've
> been looking, they have not sold untreated 4by4s. Then I went to
> Menards, where I gladly found both. I plan to get the "white wood"
> 4by4s (for $8.33 each) rather than the fir ones which they prize for
> about $16.99. Please let me know if "white wood" is somehow deficient
> for bench legs.
>
> The package of 2.5" deck screws I found said, "Do not use if rust or
> rust stains are not acceptable on the application". And it's not, so
> I think I'm going with stainless, $8.50/#. I don't care for the
> (coated) colors. Stainless screws looks like "nails"! You may have
> heard of "Diamond Jim". I'm calling this the "Diamond Lew" look (cause
> I like the name, no intended correspondance to the person with a
> penchant for jewels)!
>
> Also, after reading the packaging, wood glue doesn't sound as
> appropriate as "Contructive Adhesive"--Locktite PL-375.
> Clamp and glue, and put in screws after it dries, or sooner?
>
> The 9" wide 2by10s are on sale for $5.99, 1.5 of those will give me a
> 27" wide top (the "right" size for my table). I might have liked a
> 52" long top, but I can settle for 48" (half of an 8 foot 2by10). At
> 27" wide, the top will be 48" by 27", having a ratio of 1.77 (Golden
> Ratio is about 1.62). I didn't strive for that, but it is a good
> sign!
>
> I reserved a truck to bring the lumber home tomorrow!
> I could have brought it home in my car 2 pieces at a time, but I'm
> fixin' to be coming into saving $600 on an AC repair! ; ) Might as
> well, "live a little".
>
> This post is a little long too perhaps, but humor takes up extra
> space--perhaps you missed it? The first question I had, I raised in
> the first paragraph--white wood 4by4s for legs? I mean, they are not
> going to bow on me, are they? And the other one concerned when to put
> the screws in--before or after the glue dries. All in all, I'm
> looking forward to seeing a decent worktable bench! And I will really
> building and having something from our community.
>
> I have to do the math and figure out how many 2by4's I need, and I'll
> be "good to go!". Select ones are $2.29 for 4 pair!
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
>

Menards will often have various lengths of material on sale, so you can
purchase a 2x10x10' rather than a 2x10x8' and get the extra length on
your bench. You'll have around 17" left over, which is plenty of
material to use for something else.

The whitewood 4x4s should be fine. You can also glue together a couple
of 2x4s which would be cheaper based on the prices you gave us. A bottle
of Titebond II costs less than $5 and you can use it on the whole
project. (Construction adhesive will work fine as well. I just like
Titebond II for woodworking projects.)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Leon wrote:
>> On 5/10/2012 11:15 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>>> The package of 2.5" deck screws I found said, "Do not use if rust or
>>> rust stains are not acceptable on the application".
>>
>> I*f you are attaching "2x" material you want at least 3" screws.
>
> Thank you, I was thinking they 2.5" seemed a little short. I will fix
> that and get some green ones!
>
*snip*

One note on that: If you're going through two 2x's the short way (like
making an almost 4x4 post with 2x4s) the 3" screw may poke out.
(Especially if countersunk.) The 2.5" would be a better choice there.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

"Mike Marlow" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> Are you successful holding the two pieces with one hand and driving
>> screws without anything moving?
>>
>
> Every day.
>

If perfect alignment is needed, I've had good luck with using a brad nailer
to put a couple of brads in before screwing the pieces together. However,
perfect alignment is rarely required and when it is it's often much faster
to screw the pieces together and cut/plane/sand the pieces even.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
> Somehow it didn't occur to me until now that, in this project, EVERY
> ONE of my screws will be attaching 2by-materials to 4by4s. I
> exchanged my deck screws for 3" ones today, but I will get longer ones
> if that may give better performance. I would rather swap them now
> than have something become loose. What would be best? Box of screws
> says, "pre-drilling recommended". Just drill 2/3 of the way, right?
>
> I'm glad to own a DW 10-Amp drill. It would be nice if it had a
> clutch, but it makes easy work of long screws! It's among my "Best
> Bang for the buck" tools, with my Sears ShopVac at the top!
>
> I'm looking forward to having a sturdy bench with a vise--projects
> await!
>
> Cheers,
> Bill

For predrilling, a chart like this first Google result can be consulted:
http://www.wlfuller.com/html/what_size___.html

I usually predrill for everything, but only go to a depth where the bit
goes through the first piece I'm joining. The whole idea is to prevent
splits, the fact that it's easier to drive through a predrilled hole is
a nice side-effect.

A couple weeks ago, I found it easier to "predrill" with a hammer and
nail rather than an actual drill bit. (Small screws, just had to get
the head started.)

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

*snip*

>
> I've used a hammer and nail, just to help the drill start in the right
> place--I've found it has some tendency to twist away from where you
> point it!
>
> Bill
>

Brad point drill bits are great for woodworking. They have a really sharp
point on the end (like a nail) and sometimes a couple of "spur" points on
the edges. This makes the bit cut a really clean circle without wandering.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Puckdropper wrote:
>>
>> Brad point drill bits are great for woodworking. They have a really
>> sharp point on the end (like a nail) and sometimes a couple of "spur"
>> points on the edges. This makes the bit cut a really clean circle
>> without wandering.
>>
>
> Yes, I collected a small set of those. I'm not sure if they make them
> in 1/8" sizes as are applicable for pre-drilling. If I see one on my
> next trip to the store, I'll get it.
>

I haven't had any trouble with bits smaller than 1/8" wandering. It
might be that it's easier to put greater pressure on the tip, so it stays
in place, or it might just be that the cutting edge dig in rather than
gripping.

If you want to experiment, watch for Menards to have a sale on their
drill bits. There's a set with twist and brad point bits that
occasionally goes on sale for less than a buck after in-store rebate. I
think there's 18 bits total, 12 twist and 6 brad point. They're sold
under the Tool Shop brand. The size range goes from really small (1/16?)
to 5/16".

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Puckdropper wrote:
>
>> If you want to experiment, watch for Menards to have a sale on their
>> drill bits.
>
> That's where I've been shopping. Concerning 1/8" drill bits.
> They had a package of 2 "Vermont" (brand) for $2.69, and a package of
> *10* "Master Force" Titanium bits for $2.99.
>
> I bought the former. Did I miss a bargain?

Nah... They're cheap enough to buy 2 even when not on sale.

> BTW, I exchanged my workbench screws for longer ones that are 3 1/2"
> long. I modified the design a little for a extra strength too.
> Plan and materials in hand, execution should be quick.

Once you get past a certain length, the added length of the screw becomes
a vulnerability rather than an asset. They need to be "long enough" to
get solid contact with the wood, but not so long that they risk poking
out.

Once you get enough screw into the wood to hold it securely, the screw is
long enough. Experiment and learn.

> What are you working on Puck?
>
> Bill

I'm working on setting pressure treated boards on fire with a router.
It's an interesting proposition, but it is easier to take a stick lighter
down to the fire pit with a bucketful of plane shavings.

The pressure treated is for a deck rail I'm adding. The stair rail is
done, not I've got to add a railing between that post and the door.
Should be done in less time than it takes to calculate how much material
I need.

Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:


>
>>
>> You're thinking about this too much Bill.
>
> I think I am best judge of that.

It does not appear so.

>
> "Give me a fish and I eat for a day; teach me to fish and I eat for a
> lifetime..."--Chinese proverb.
>

No - it goes like this... light a man a fire and keep him warm for a day.
Light a man on fire and keep him warm for life. Sheese... get it right if
you're going to quote the old guys...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> I would think I would need to clamp before I drive screws--else
> something will move (in my old typical experience, something always
> seems to move). Here's my current best idea: To glue a 2by4 to a 2by4
> forming a right angle in the plane, clamp them both to a short
> vertical piece of 4by4 to establish and hold the angle while driving
> the screws.

Forget the 4x4 Bill. The angle is going to formed by the surfaces of the
two pieces being screwed together. If they are square, just try to screw
them together with something other than a 90 degree angle resulting...

Just drill through holes for your screws in one of the pieces you are
attaching to something else. Hold the two pieces together, and insert your
screw in the through hole and screw away. (Or, lay one piece on a flat
surface and hold the other one to it.) Unless you have a serious nervous
condition you should be able to easily hold them and run the screw in, just
fine. If you want, you can get all or several of your screws started, but
not run completely home. Run them in almost all of the way. This will
allow you to make small adjustments if you need to. By the time you get
several in, it is unlikely your pieces will move, and you can just run them
all in completely.

You're thinking about this too much Bill.

>
> Are you successful holding the two pieces with one hand and driving
> screws without anything moving?
>

Every day.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Puckdropper wrote:

> For predrilling, a chart like this first Google result can be
> consulted: http://www.wlfuller.com/html/what_size___.html
>

Ugh!!! You had to go and complicate this didnt' ya?...

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> Geeze Bill - why wouldn't you take this to an appropriate newsgroup?
>> Or look up a youtube video?
>>
>
> There was a reference to you in it, toward the end. I don't know
> which newsgroups you read besides this one. ::: ducking :::

Huh?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 5/10/2012 2:56 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/10/2012 2:25 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>
>> People always tell me I use too many screws. Nothing I ever built fell
>> apart. I build sturdy. Another way to add a little beef (weight) to the
>> table, without a lot of extra expense, go to 2 X 6's. I rarely use 2 X
>> 4's for anything any more.
>
> Agreed on the deck screws with you and FrozenNorth..
>
> I will say if he is planning to build the work table we've been talking
> about, it is plenty heavy made from 2 x 4's (or with 4 x 4 legs). I have
> enough trouble moving mine by myself due to its weight, without the top
> and drawers.
>
> Besides, with Bill, another parameter/option may set him back another
> two weeks in contemplation alone. :)
>

I wonder what length screw Bill is going to use, yellow or green? :~)

"Steve" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> tiredofspam wrote:
>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>
>> JUST DO IT
>
>
> One thing I try to impress upon my students is
>
> Design, Design, Design!
>
> Some of them don't understand, so I may explain with more emphasis:
>
> Design, Design, Design, Design, Design, Design! (slight exaggeration)
>
> I say, "You're nodding, but I still don't think you appreciate it (what
> is behind the words) enough".
>
> I suggest that when confronted with a job interview, or similar, that
> they could do a lot worse than to reveal a sacred point of view
> regarding design. At least they encountered one person who defended a,
> perhaps, unusually-euphoric reverence for it.
>
> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>
> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it. It is
> interesting to note that, timewise, cutting wood, depending on how one
> defines cutting wood fibers, may amount to less than 1% of a ww
project,
> yet it, the materials, could represent a significant proportion of the
> cost of the project. The woodworking materials may not even be directly
> replaceable. In short, there is probably adequate time to DO IT, after
> one has crafted a design. Of course, as most everyone is aware, design
> can take many forms, such as building a prototype, or involve
practicing
> the unfamiliar, but don't get me started...
>
> Cheers, with a capital D,
> Bill
>

My CAD professor used to say "make all your mistakes with a pencil and
paper before you create it in AutoCAD".
=====================================================================
Didn't have a very good concept of CAD, did he?

Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say

JUST DO IT

right?

JUST DO IT!

On 5/5/2012 1:25 PM, Bill wrote:
> On 5/5/2012 8:21 AM, dadiOH wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
>>> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
>>> believe.
>>> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
>>> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )
>>
>> You could. It would be a lot easier with a bandsaw. Not hard with a table
>> or radial saw either...just make a number of crosscuts to the proper
>> depth,
>> pop out the excess, clean up with chisel and/or rasp. Do it the same way
>> with a circular saw. You could even use a chain saw. Or a hand saw.
>>
>
> Good points. Not all of them apply to making the cut in the middle of a
> 4by4. I don't have a table saw yet. I didn't quite realize I could count
> on a BS for glue-able flatness--I suppose with a 1/2" blade (which I have).
>
> Among other things, this table is going to be my "Scarey-Sharp"
> sharpening station. I may have to practice my Scarey-Sharp technique in
> the kitchen first before I complete this project! : )
>
> Thanks!
> Bill

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Bill wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
> > project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
> > might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
> > For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
> >
> > I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> > weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will
> > be superior to a plan?
>
> Very. What seems like a good idea on paper is often stupid or impossible in
> reality.
>
> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but IMO & IME
> hobbyist woodworking is not among them.

Depends on the project. For a first of anything sometimes it's better
to start hacking and see what develops. The result may suck but you'll
have a better understanding of the problem when you go to do a top down
design.

In the case of the "first bench", get a load of nails and 2x6s from Home
Despot and hammer something vaguely bench-like together and you'll have
killed two birds. First you'll have a work surface, however crappy, and
second after you've used it a while you'll have a better idea of what
you really want.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> Bill wrote:
> > Mike Marlow wrote:
> >> Bill wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> My motor is supposed to arrive tomorrow or Friday. Except for the
> >>> detail above, I think I'm ready.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Have you looked at yours yet Bill?
> >
> > Yes, I've been looking at it everyday, ever more closely (seriously)!
> >
> > It is usually just a simple push in
> >> connector. (push in and twist). The connector itself couples to the motor
> >> with a simple nut. Is yours different?
> >
> > I think so. I'll see if I can get a pic. Thank you for your interest!
> >
> > Bill
>
> Mike,
>
> I posted 4 pics illustrating the conduit and connector I've been talking
> about. I think that motors came with the wires already attached. I'm
> increasing thinking the conduit is hanging there.
> Evidently keeping wires "dry" is not as crucial as I might have
> supposed, as the heat pump is full of wires with no more protection
> that their own colored skin.
>
> Still curious about the 4th pic. Remove just the grill, right?
>
> http://web.newsguy.com/MySite/

Modern electrical wires have plastic insulation that doesn't really care
if it gets wet. What you have to keep dry is the connections at the
end.
>
> Thank you,
> Bill

On 5/6/2012 12:32 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>
>> JUST DO IT
>>
>> right?
>>
>> JUST DO IT!
>>
>
> Ugh-oh... I'm going to get blamed for this post...
>
> Oh well, since I am, I'll just echo the sentiment!
>
> Do it and learn from it!
Exactly. That's how you get better.
>
> There - I feel better now...
>

On 5/7/2012 10:45 PM, Bill wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I'll be able to get back to ww stuff soon.

Don't feel too bad. I have been forced to do more ww because of AC
repairs ... last month it was $1400+ to replace the coil in my upstairs
unit (and this was with my "$200 discount", after having paid this same
HVAC contractor over $100K in the last decade to install HVAC in new homes).

> It felt strange to pass on the repair, but I have no regrets so far.
> So far it's hot, but nice not feeling like a victim. He wasn't going to
> replace it today anyway, so I'd still be hot! : )

Even a "builder grade" (usually a Goodman around here) compressor and
fan unit (the part that sits outside) runs around $1800 - $2000 to
replace. That's about what I've had to pay to replace those stolen off
of construction sites the last couple of times that has happened.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

BTW Bill, everyone makes mistakes.

What makes a good woodworker, or any craftsperson, is how they fix their
mistakes.

You learn to hide, or enhance it. Sometimes you take a different tack...
But you'll never learn until you do. And after a while it will become
second nature. You'll find yourself not thinking about it, just doing
it. Along the road you will feel very good when you complete a process
and it went well and looks well.

Making anything is just learning to work in order, and chunk it down.
Don't be overwhelmed, just chunk it down.

Learning to work efficiently is learning to work:
In order You can't build draws until the carcas is complete.
On something else while something is drying.

Just keep going, make a mistake?? Figure out how you can fix it.
If you can't start again on that module.


On 5/6/2012 12:32 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>
>> JUST DO IT
>>
>> right?
>>
>> JUST DO IT!
>>
>
> Ugh-oh... I'm going to get blamed for this post...
>
> Oh well, since I am, I'll just echo the sentiment!
>
> Do it and learn from it!
>
> There - I feel better now...
>

Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> tiredofspam wrote:
>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>
>> JUST DO IT
>
>
> One thing I try to impress upon my students is
>
> Design, Design, Design!
>
> Some of them don't understand, so I may explain with more emphasis:
>
> Design, Design, Design, Design, Design, Design! (slight exaggeration)
>
> I say, "You're nodding, but I still don't think you appreciate it (what
> is behind the words) enough".
>
> I suggest that when confronted with a job interview, or similar, that
> they could do a lot worse than to reveal a sacred point of view
> regarding design. At least they encountered one person who defended a,
> perhaps, unusually-euphoric reverence for it.
>
> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>
> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it. It is
> interesting to note that, timewise, cutting wood, depending on how one
> defines cutting wood fibers, may amount to less than 1% of a ww
project,
> yet it, the materials, could represent a significant proportion of the
> cost of the project. The woodworking materials may not even be directly
> replaceable. In short, there is probably adequate time to DO IT, after
> one has crafted a design. Of course, as most everyone is aware, design
> can take many forms, such as building a prototype, or involve
practicing
> the unfamiliar, but don't get me started...
>
> Cheers, with a capital D,
> Bill
>

My CAD professor used to say "make all your mistakes with a pencil and
paper before you create it in AutoCAD".

On Fri, 4 May 2012 22:15:59 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>> I have made a ton of things with lap joints. I used both radial arm
>A blade with a flat top grind makes life easier.

And, a dado blade makes lap joints a breeze.

Bill wrote:

> Mike,
>
> I posted 4 pics illustrating the conduit and connector I've been
> talking about. I think that motors came with the wires already
> attached. I'm increasing thinking the conduit is hanging there.
> Evidently keeping wires "dry" is not as crucial as I might have
> supposed, as the heat pump is full of wires with no more protection
> that their own colored skin.
>
> Still curious about the 4th pic. Remove just the grill, right?

That's what it appears like in the picture. I've never taken one of these
motors out, but from what I can see, that's how I would start. You'll
probably find that the motor is secured in some other way once you get the
grill off, but I'd have to do it step by step myself.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 5/10/2012 11:15 PM, Bill wrote:
> Leon wrote:Snip

>>
>> I can also recommend GripTite deck screws, with torx/star drive heads,
>> at Lowes.
>
> I made the Home Depot trip. They stopped selling SYP, and, since I've
> been looking, they have not sold untreated 4by4s. Then I went to
> Menards, where I gladly found both. I plan to get the "white wood" 4by4s
> (for $8.33 each) rather than the fir ones which they prize for about
> $16.99. Please let me know if "white wood" is somehow deficient for
> bench legs.

White wood will work fine but keep in mind that it tends to be much
softer than SYP, it will be very easy to over drive a screw.


>
> The package of 2.5" deck screws I found said, "Do not use if rust or
> rust stains are not acceptable on the application". And it's not, so I
> think I'm going with stainless, $8.50/#. I don't care for the (coated)
> colors. Stainless screws looks like "nails"! You may have heard of
> "Diamond Jim". I'm calling this the "Diamond Lew" look (cause I like the
> name, no intended correspondance to the person with a penchant for jewels)!

I*f you are attaching "2x" material you want at least 3" screws.

>
> Also, after reading the packaging, wood glue doesn't sound as
> appropriate as "Contructive Adhesive"--Locktite PL-375.
> Clamp and glue, and put in screws after it dries, or sooner?

Construction adhesive is a better gap filler than glue. No need to wait
on putting screws in, in fact if you put them in immediately there is
not much reason to clamp, that's what they do.


>
> The 9" wide 2by10s are on sale for $5.99, 1.5 of those will give me a
> 27" wide top (the "right" size for my table). I might have liked a 52"
> long top, but I can settle for 48" (half of an 8 foot 2by10). At 27"
> wide, the top will be 48" by 27", having a ratio of 1.77 (Golden Ratio
> is about 1.62). I didn't strive for that, but it is a good sign!

This will be fine if cupping will not bother you. It is harder to get a
flat surface with wider boards. Personally I would go with plywood.

Swingman wrote:

>
> Perfect examples why you will never win a war, or build a skyscraper.
> :)

I have done the equivelent of both by knowing when to think too much and
when to act. I know you too well now Karl - and I know that you too have
figured this out. But - that is not coming through in your posts. Come
on - you've never - or you don't hack a quick fix together to get you
through something? I'm going to call bullshit on you on that one.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Bill wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
>>> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
>>> believe.
>>> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
>>> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )
>>
>> Don't even need the chisel Bill.
>>
>
> Cool. I'll try it then. When I've seen folks do it on TV,
> they make a bunch of cuts with a TS (maybe it was a hand saw?) and
> then use a chisel. I guess you are suggesting that, towards the
> end, you can use the circular saw a little like a router!

You can cut your half laps with cuts from two different directions. One
down through the end grain, and one cross cut.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> Mike Marlow wrote:
> Do you ever get off the dime?
>>
>
> I bought my materials for the bench Friday. I paid Menards about
> $25 to rent a truck, so it was convenient to get my lumber all at
> once.

Was talking about your propensity for coming up with new questions rather
than engaging. I did understand that you bought your lumber. Ready, set,
go Bill...!


> I plan to fix my broken AC tomorrow, and
> assuming I can get the blade off the old motor,
> I should be good-to-go-to-work on the bench!

Good luck on the AC. Hope it goes well.

>
> Have you got some projects going and/or planned?

Always. Both going, and planned.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:
> On 5/7/2012 3:34 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> If we are not discussing the same thing, then it is you who
>> distracted the conversation Karl. I was very clear in what I posted
>> to Bill,
>
> Except that you CLEARLY posted/replied to me, not Bill:

And you sir, replied to me as I had posted a reply to Bill. So - it's good
for you and not for others?

>
> On 5/7/2012 12:20 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> The difference between mediocrity and supremacy is attention to
>>>> detail; and that detail is the essence of what a plan/design
>>>> provides.
>> For some things - agreed. Very much so. For other things - not so
>> much. Some things are purely utilitarian, and detail be damned. For
> example - I
>> need a sawhorse now. I can spend all kinds of time designing and
>> creating the perfect sawhorse, or I can crudely knock one together
>> to get the job done. Who really cares if it has any usefullness
>> beyond the next 20 hours? I simply need to get this done. So -
>> there is a simple case where ability and capability, accompanied by
>> a modicum of experience, result in perfection in time of need. Not
>> at all elegant. Might even end up in the burn pile at the end. So
>> what? Didn't need art.
>>>> You just described the importance of using a design tool, which
>>>> was why it was so exciting to me to get my hands on an easy to
>>>> use design tool like Sketchup when it first became available.
>> Inarguable when it comes to the stuff you normall deal in. Different
>> though, when dealing with utilitarian stuff.
>>
>>>>
>>>> Make a detailed plan, and execute the plan, and you can win wars
>>>> and build skyscrapers.
>> Only if the skyscraper actually ever begins to be built.
>>
>> -- -Mike- [email protected]
>
> IOW, YOU replied to MY post to Bill with a bunch of qualifiers, and
> you're going to what??:

Well, then... just what was it I said in that reply that was so bothersome
to you Karl? Or was it simply that I replied?

>
>>> I'm going to call bullshit
>>>> on you on that one.
>
> Marlow, simply go fuck yourself.

I'll stand second in line Karl, after you.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Swingman wrote:

>
> The difference between mediocrity and supremacy is attention to
> detail; and that detail is the essence of what a plan/design provides.
>

For some things - agreed. Very much so. For other things - not so much.
Some things are purely utilitarian, and detail be damned. For example - I
need a sawhorse now. I can spend all kinds of time designing and creating
the perfect sawhorse, or I can crudely knock one together to get the job
done. Who really cares if it has any usefullness beyond the next 20 hours?
I simply need to get this done. So - there is a simple case where ability
and capability, accompanied by a modicum of experience, result in perfection
in time of need. Not at all elegant. Might even end up in the burn pile at
the end. So what? Didn't need art.

> You just described the importance of using a design tool, which was
> why it was so exciting to me to get my hands on an easy to use design
> tool like Sketchup when it first became available.

Inarguable when it comes to the stuff you normall deal in. Different
though, when dealing with utilitarian stuff.

>
> Make a detailed plan, and execute the plan, and you can win wars and
> build skyscrapers.

Only if the skyscraper actually ever begins to be built.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>
>> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but
>> IMO& IME hobbyist woodworking is not among them.
>>
>
> Where does designing jigs, for instance, fit in there? That's about
> the last thing I want to have to do when the planets are aligned and
> I have the time to actually be running machinery.

Agreed! The worst part of jigs in my opinion is the distraction they create
from the actual work process, to me. Damn! Another set up type of
requirement. I just want to get going! But - that's a tad different from
over planning on the front end.

> I would confess,
> if I ended up in that position, that I hadn't planned well.

Maybe so. Or - maybe not. I've encountered many tasks where I discovered
mid-project that I needed something I had not anticipated. That can happen
for a lot of reasons. If you consider that to be poor planning, then I fear
you will never get out of the planning stages of anything.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> I have to yield to your experience in woodworking, which is certainly
> far greater than mine. But, I'm on the 3rd version (plan) of my work
> table now and i have not wasted a single board. Without this
> approach, I'd still be building the 1st inferior version. I built,
> almost by the seat of my pants, when I was a teenager. Now I draw
> more. Perhaps after I've acquired more experience I'll draw less. At
> the level I'm at now, I make stupid mistakes if I'm not careful--and
> having a plan helps me be careful.
>

Well Bill - as one of the more consistent voices encouraging you to get out
and do it, I'll step back and say that I absolutely understand what you are
saying here. I think you raise a very valid point. I spend untold amounts
of time thinking my way through new ventures, and considering the
alternatives. Like you - when I finally get at it, I don't want any more
re-runs than are necessary. For me - I come up with ideas in my own head.
Then, I utilize tools like google to validate whether my homegrown ideas
have merit or weaknesses. That part of my process is usually reasonably
quick. If I find something that I can't resolve between my ideas and what I
see others doing, then I'll throw it out to a community like this for input.
It usually does not take me long to resolve this entire process and to get
moving on into production. So - what I'm saying is simply that I do
understand your reluctance.

All that said - for small, simple, cheap things like your table project...
there is an equally valid notion that says if you just go do it, you'll
learn from it. You'll learn those things that you are trying to get all in
a row right now. Sure... you'll make a mistake and have to re-do something.
Oh well - that's not all that bad. If you are trying to engage in something
new, and to plan it so precisely as to anticipate the ultimate in perfection
on your first go around, you're probably putting too much emphasis on the
planning part. Hell - with the best of planning, we can still find a way to
screw something up.

What most of us are trying to say when we say to just do it, is that you
simply cannot fully plan the perfect execution, and despite the best of
planning, you will have other aspects of the job (actually using the tools
for example), that fall outside of the plan. You can plan the job
perfectly, but until you master some of the mechanical skills, the plan is
just an abstraction.

The two go together, and as much as planning is a requirement, doing the
work is an equal requirement.

>
>
>>
>> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but
>> IMO& IME hobbyist woodworking is not among them.
>
> No one said anything about strict adherence. I know people struggling
> in life because they don't have and won't make a plan (seriously)...
>

Sure - a very valid point. Equally so are the numbers of people who never
got out of the box because they just couldn't get past the analysis stage.
Remember - after the perfect plan, comes the ability to perfectly execute
the plan. That only comes with practice and... unfortunately - some amount
of mistakes.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> My motor is supposed to arrive tomorrow or Friday. Except for the
> detail above, I think I'm ready.
>

Have you looked at yours yet Bill? It is usually just a simple push in
connector. (push in and twist). The connector itself couples to the motor
with a simple nut. Is yours different?

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

>
> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
> believe.
> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )

Don't even need the chisel Bill.

--

-Mike-
[email protected]

Bill wrote:

> I have to learn to "leave it alone" now and get
> other work done in the meantime.

Well - when you master that skill Mister, you just send me an email and
explain it to me!

> Maybe I can go shop for the wood
> for that work table.

Just remember... proper shopping in the big boy's toy store is a requisite 3
hour jaunt. Wives do not suffer this well...

> I'm not sure of best sort of screw for
> fastening two 2by4s together.

2 or 2 1/2" deck screws, or through bolts. I prefer the through bolt thing
myself. That said... with much of the junk young growth lumber you'll find
today, carriage bolts may not work. They look much better, but the grain
just won't hold the head. You might want to consider using a real
bolt/washer/nut combination. Think this way - the dimension of the wood
you're bolting together, plus 1/2" for a nut. Don't worry about washers as
a factor.

> I assume that when folks said "screws
> not nails" that they didn't mean lag bolts, but I guess that gives me
> new homework to do!

Not necessarily. In fact when people say screws, they usually mean
something more like a sheet rock screw or a deck screw. Those are screws.
Lag bolts are bolts. Most people will specifically use the term when that's
what they mean.


--

-Mike-
[email protected]

On 5/10/2012 3:58 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> I wonder what length screw Bill is going to use, yellow or green? :~)
>
> You are very bad sir...
>

;~O

On 5/10/2012 5:26 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 5/10/2012 3:45 PM, Bill wrote:
>> Swingman wrote:
>>> On 5/10/2012 2:25 PM, Lee Michaels wrote:
>>>
>>>> People always tell me I use too many screws. Nothing I ever built fell
>>>> apart. I build sturdy. Another way to add a little beef (weight) to the
>>>> table, without a lot of extra expense, go to 2 X 6's. I rarely use 2 X
>>>> 4's for anything any more.
>>>
>>> Agreed on the deck screws with you and FrozenNorth..
>>>
>>> I will say if he is planning to build the work table we've been talking
>>> about, it is plenty heavy made from 2 x 4's (or with 4 x 4 legs). I have
>>> enough trouble moving mine by myself due to its weight, without the top
>>> and drawers.
>>>
>>> Besides, with Bill, another parameter/option may set him back another
>>> two weeks in contemplation alone. :)
>>
>> Please don't interrupt me while I am thinking about my options!
>>
>> To be honest, I'm was just getting ready to put my shoes on and
>> head over to Home Depot. But now there's this 2x6 thing, and glue,
>> :: sigh :: , hadn't really considered glue.
>>
>> I've never countersunk screws before, and I intend to use that technique
>> on the top. One thing at a time, maybe I'll come home with most of the
>> materials (always fun)! : )
>>
>> I just need to count up how my screws I need, 4 per joint, and I'll be
>> ready to go! :) Can I borrow your calculator? (just kidding)
>
> Deckmate brand deck screws, which are fine for your application, are
> available at Home Depot; as well as Spax screws, if you really want to
> be macho/use belt and suspenders. (some HD's seem to be perpetually out
> of Spax, but many do carry them ... pricey and overkill for your
> application, IME)
>
> Shear strength is not something to be concerned with in this application.
>


I can also recommend GripTite deck screws, with torx/star drive heads,
at Lowes.

On 5/7/2012 1:59 AM, Bill wrote:

> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it.

The difference between mediocrity and supremacy is attention to detail;
and that detail is the essence of what a plan/design provides.

You just described the importance of using a design tool, which was why
it was so exciting to me to get my hands on an easy to use design tool
like Sketchup when it first became available.

Make a detailed plan, and execute the plan, and you can win wars and
build skyscrapers.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Joe <Joe@Joe'sPlace.com wrote:
> I'm in the process of doing the same thing.
>
> I'm using a plan fromhttp://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/206/heavy-duty-workbench.pdf
> with slight modifications. Mine will be wall mounted, a couple
> of inches higher, have two shelves, and go all the way to the floor to
> keep out dust and critters. There's also a video available. Panels on the
> sides provide stability. See the picture in the a.b.pictures.woodworking
> group.
>
> A fancier version using the same design but out of maple and with
> drawers is in Woodsmith - 133 - Feb 2001 - Heavy Duty Workbench.
>
> Your plan looks top-heavy and like it might stand a good chance of racking,
> especially after mounting a vise. I think stretchers like are shown on the plan
> would work better. If it's wall mounted, that may solve it, depending on how
> you mount it. See also the picture of how Woodsmith mounts a machinist's
> vise to the same table.
> -J
>

I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I believe.

Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
>> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
>> believe.
>> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
>> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )
>
> Don't even need the chisel Bill.
>

Cool. I'll try it then. When I've seen folks do it on TV,
they make a bunch of cuts with a TS (maybe it was a hand saw?) and then
use a chisel. I guess you are suggesting that, towards the end, you
can use the circular saw a little like a router!

Dave wrote:
> On Fri, 4 May 2012 22:15:59 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>>> I have made a ton of things with lap joints. I used both radial arm
>> A blade with a flat top grind makes life easier.
>
> And, a dado blade makes lap joints a breeze.

That wouldn't be sportsman-like! ; )

Bill wrote:

> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
> believe.
> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )

You could. It would be a lot easier with a bandsaw. Not hard with a table
or radial saw either...just make a number of crosscuts to the proper depth,
pop out the excess, clean up with chisel and/or rasp. Do it the same way
with a circular saw. You could even use a chain saw. Or a hand saw.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On 5/5/2012 2:42 AM, Bill wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>> On Fri, 4 May 2012 22:15:59 -0700, "Lew Hodgett"
>>>> I have made a ton of things with lap joints. I used both radial arm
>>> A blade with a flat top grind makes life easier.
>>
>> And, a dado blade makes lap joints a breeze.
>
> That wouldn't be sportsman-like! ; )

A good sharp No. 71 (or 71-1/2) Stanley router plane is a great tool for
cleaning up the irregularities left by the saw blade at the bottom of a dado or
rabbet. A lot more fun and very sportsman-like. :-)

--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/

On 5/5/2012 8:21 AM, dadiOH wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>> I may indeed borrow the idea of using an "overlap joint" for my
>> stretchers, which is the key part of what you are suggesting, I
>> believe.
>> Dare I try to make such joints with a hand-held circular saw and a
>> chisel? No replies from any SS owners please! : )
>
> You could. It would be a lot easier with a bandsaw. Not hard with a table
> or radial saw either...just make a number of crosscuts to the proper depth,
> pop out the excess, clean up with chisel and/or rasp. Do it the same way
> with a circular saw. You could even use a chain saw. Or a hand saw.
>

Good points. Not all of them apply to making the cut in the middle of a
4by4. I don't have a table saw yet. I didn't quite realize I could
count on a BS for glue-able flatness--I suppose with a 1/2" blade (which
I have).

Among other things, this table is going to be my "Scarey-Sharp"
sharpening station. I may have to practice my Scarey-Sharp technique in
the kitchen first before I complete this project! : )

Thanks!
Bill

tiredofspam wrote:
> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>
> JUST DO IT
>
> right?
>
> JUST DO IT!

...Working on getting to it. Hang in there!


I... woke up this morning...
Lookin' 'round for my shoes....
Some cat stole my Nikes...
and now I got the walking blues;

They was just there yesterday..
Just sitting next to my saw..(tenny's ain't good for working ya know)
And they was still there this morning...
I may never shake these walking blues,
Cause a certain man thinks I'm boring;

(With all due apologies to Robert Johnson) : )

Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>
>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>
>> JUST DO IT
>>
>> right?
>>
>> JUST DO IT!
>>
>
> Ugh-oh... I'm going to get blamed for this post...
>
> Oh well, since I am, I'll just echo the sentiment!
>
> Do it and learn from it!
>
> There - I feel better now...
>

Good, it's too late for me to write another verse! lol.

tiredofspam wrote:

> Making anything is just learning to work in order, and chunk it down.
> Don't be overwhelmed, just chunk it down.
>
> Learning to work efficiently is learning to work:
> In order You can't build draws until the carcas is complete.
> On something else while something is drying.


Yes, I have been somewhat surprised to find myself using the same
principles in my woodworking-related projects that I would use in
non-woodworking work. Especially Lists!

And I'm still struggling with the idea that I don't have to save all of
my documentation! : )

I'll be able to get back to ww stuff soon.

The AC broke today (only blows room temperature air). But, I'm a little
ahead of the game this year, compared to last year when it also broke
(twice: solenoid and a pin-hole leak). I had mentioned it last year,
else I wouldn't have brought it up. I just examined the solenoid, and
it is not "split" like last year, so it's time to call a pro.

A lightning strike last week took out the furnaces of two houses accross
the street. I considered myself lucky. But I'm not sure whether a big
electrical strike to the ground could cause a refrigerant leak, like I
suspect I probably have, or not. Since I'll be paying the bill either
way it's sort of an academic question. : )

tiredofspam wrote:
> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>
> JUST DO IT


One thing I try to impress upon my students is

Design, Design, Design!

Some of them don't understand, so I may explain with more emphasis:

Design, Design, Design, Design, Design, Design! (slight exaggeration)

I say, "You're nodding, but I still don't think you appreciate it (what
is behind the words) enough".

I suggest that when confronted with a job interview, or similar, that
they could do a lot worse than to reveal a sacred point of view
regarding design. At least they encountered one person who defended a,
perhaps, unusually-euphoric reverence for it.

Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.

I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it. It is
interesting to note that, timewise, cutting wood, depending on how one
defines cutting wood fibers, may amount to less than 1% of a ww project,
yet it, the materials, could represent a significant proportion of the
cost of the project. The woodworking materials may not even be directly
replaceable. In short, there is probably adequate time to DO IT, after
one has crafted a design. Of course, as most everyone is aware, design
can take many forms, such as building a prototype, or involve practicing
the unfamiliar, but don't get me started...

Cheers, with a capital D,
Bill

Bill wrote:

<snip>

> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>
> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will
> be superior to a plan?

Very. What seems like a good idea on paper is often stupid or impossible in
reality.

There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but IMO & IME
hobbyist woodworking is not among them.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Puckdropper wrote:
> Bill<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> tiredofspam wrote:
>>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>>
>>> JUST DO IT
>>
>>
>> One thing I try to impress upon my students is
>>
>> Design, Design, Design!
>>
>> Some of them don't understand, so I may explain with more emphasis:
>>
>> Design, Design, Design, Design, Design, Design! (slight exaggeration)
>>
>> I say, "You're nodding, but I still don't think you appreciate it (what
>> is behind the words) enough".
>>
>> I suggest that when confronted with a job interview, or similar, that
>> they could do a lot worse than to reveal a sacred point of view
>> regarding design. At least they encountered one person who defended a,
>> perhaps, unusually-euphoric reverence for it.
>>
>> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
>> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
>> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
>> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>>
>> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
>> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
>> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
>> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it. It is
>> interesting to note that, timewise, cutting wood, depending on how one
>> defines cutting wood fibers, may amount to less than 1% of a ww
> project,
>> yet it, the materials, could represent a significant proportion of the
>> cost of the project. The woodworking materials may not even be directly
>> replaceable. In short, there is probably adequate time to DO IT, after
>> one has crafted a design. Of course, as most everyone is aware, design
>> can take many forms, such as building a prototype, or involve
> practicing
>> the unfamiliar, but don't get me started...
>>
>> Cheers, with a capital D,
>> Bill
>>
>
> A driver has to deliver packages to points A, B, C, D, E and F. The
> route can use any legal street. Calculate the best route. Design 1:
> Find the best route between all roads. Design 2: Just do it. Design 3:
> Avoid the worst, don't worry about minor inefficiencies.
>


Led by me, my students and I solved your problem a few years ago.
All you really need is a time or distance function dist(p1, p2) between
each pairs of points p1 and p2 in {A, B, C, ..., F} and a "brute force"
search (through all of the possibilities). Once you find a route, you
need not consider a longer one, so the search list is not
insurmountable. I think the shipping companies take this many steps
further. With gas at $4/gallon, you can't afford to assume all of your
drivers are equally equipped to choose a good route. In fact, you'd
probably prefer that they be driving rather than looking at maps.


> Results
> -------
> Design 1: Starts extremly slowly, but extremely efficient when done...
> Except locations C and D have moved, E went out of business and A has
> sued for failure to comply with the delivery contract.
>
> Design 2: Starts immediately, but is usually rather inefficient. The 20
> mile round trip takes 200 miles and two tanks of gas while the driver
> attempts to go through a construction zone traffic jam.
>
> Design 3: Starts reasonably quickly, but is usually good enough. The 20
> mile round trip takes 25 miles, avoids the traffic jam and the driver is
> home in time to watch Roy, Tommy Mac and the guy with the moustache on
> Woodsmith Shop.
>
>
> If you look at your projects as a series of goals, and divide them into
> major and minor goals then address the major ones in the design and get
> as many of the minor ones in as possible you'll most likely get a good
> result.

Yes, I basically agree. "Lists" are my secret to getting things done. I
use separate lists for home, work and play.


Strive for perfection, but recognize when "good enough" has been
> attained and stop there.

It's not even easy to get "good enough" out of a lot of people. Good
luck to you with your results if you request it! I can see the stacks
of folded shirts at JC Penny's now which are folded "good enough"! : )

Cheers,
Bill

>
> Puckdropper
>

dadiOH wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
>> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
>> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
>> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>>
>> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
>> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will
>> be superior to a plan?
>
> Very. What seems like a good idea on paper is often stupid or impossible in
> reality.

I have to yield to your experience in woodworking, which is certainly
far greater than mine. But, I'm on the 3rd version (plan) of my work
table now and i have not wasted a single board. Without this approach,
I'd still be building the 1st inferior version. I built, almost by the
seat of my pants, when I was a teenager. Now I draw more. Perhaps after
I've acquired more experience I'll draw less. At the level I'm at now,
I make stupid mistakes if I'm not careful--and having a plan helps me be
careful.



>
> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but IMO& IME
> hobbyist woodworking is not among them.

No one said anything about strict adherence. I know people struggling
in life because they don't have and won't make a plan (seriously)...

Best to you,
Bill

>

dadiOH wrote:

> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but IMO& IME
> hobbyist woodworking is not among them.
>

Where does designing jigs, for instance, fit in there? That's about the
last thing I want to have to do when the planets are aligned and I have
the time to actually be running machinery. I would confess, if I ended
up in that position, that I hadn't planned well.

Swingman wrote:
> On 5/7/2012 1:59 AM, Bill wrote:
>
>> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
>> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
>> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
>> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it.
>
> The difference between mediocrity and supremacy is attention to detail;
> and that detail is the essence of what a plan/design provides.
>
> You just described the importance of using a design tool, which was why
> it was so exciting to me to get my hands on an easy to use design tool
> like Sketchup when it first became available.
>
> Make a detailed plan, and execute the plan, and you can win wars and
> build skyscrapers.
>

Put me down as a believer. I'm struggling to convert the masses. I
think it's a great deal easier to become a believer AFTER you've learned
your way around SU a bit. Everytime I use SU, it shows me my technique
isn't all that good, but that's a work in progress! %-)

On 5/7/2012 4:33 AM, Bill wrote:
> Puckdropper wrote:
>> Bill<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> tiredofspam wrote:
>>>> Bill you've seen the Nike commercials.. The ones that say
>>>>
>>>> JUST DO IT
>>>
>>>
>>> One thing I try to impress upon my students is
>>>
>>> Design, Design, Design!
>>>
>>> Some of them don't understand, so I may explain with more emphasis:
>>>
>>> Design, Design, Design, Design, Design, Design! (slight exaggeration)
>>>
>>> I say, "You're nodding, but I still don't think you appreciate it (what
>>> is behind the words) enough".
>>>
>>> I suggest that when confronted with a job interview, or similar, that
>>> they could do a lot worse than to reveal a sacred point of view
>>> regarding design. At least they encountered one person who defended a,
>>> perhaps, unusually-euphoric reverence for it.
>>>
>>> Admittedly, I explain, a careful design may be of less importance on a
>>> project you intend to build by yourself in one day. Still, the world
>>> might be a better place if more people embraced the D-word.
>>> For a software developer, I consider it evidence of maturity.
>>>
>>> I am almost reticent to share now that I think it holds its
>>> weight in this environment too. How likely is it that a result will be
>>> superior to a plan? Experience has shown too that the sooner one can
>>> identify a problem, the cheaper and easier it is to fix it. It is
>>> interesting to note that, timewise, cutting wood, depending on how one
>>> defines cutting wood fibers, may amount to less than 1% of a ww
>> project,
>>> yet it, the materials, could represent a significant proportion of the
>>> cost of the project. The woodworking materials may not even be directly
>>> replaceable. In short, there is probably adequate time to DO IT, after
>>> one has crafted a design. Of course, as most everyone is aware, design
>>> can take many forms, such as building a prototype, or involve
>> practicing
>>> the unfamiliar, but don't get me started...
>>>
>>> Cheers, with a capital D,
>>> Bill
>>>
>>
>> A driver has to deliver packages to points A, B, C, D, E and F. The
>> route can use any legal street. Calculate the best route. Design 1:
>> Find the best route between all roads. Design 2: Just do it. Design 3:
>> Avoid the worst, don't worry about minor inefficiencies.
>>
>
>
> Led by me, my students and I solved your problem a few years ago.
> All you really need is a time or distance function dist(p1, p2) between
> each pairs of points p1 and p2 in {A, B, C, ..., F} and a "brute force"
> search (through all of the possibilities). Once you find a route, you
> need not consider a longer one, so the search list is not
> insurmountable. I think the shipping companies take this many steps
> further. With gas at $4/gallon, you can't afford to assume all of your
> drivers are equally equipped to choose a good route. In fact, you'd
> probably prefer that they be driving rather than looking at maps.

a simple djikstra's algorithm

>
>> Results
>> -------
>> Design 1: Starts extremly slowly, but extremely efficient when done...
>> Except locations C and D have moved, E went out of business and A has
>> sued for failure to comply with the delivery contract.
>>
>> Design 2: Starts immediately, but is usually rather inefficient. The 20
>> mile round trip takes 200 miles and two tanks of gas while the driver
>> attempts to go through a construction zone traffic jam.
>>
>> Design 3: Starts reasonably quickly, but is usually good enough. The 20
>> mile round trip takes 25 miles, avoids the traffic jam and the driver is
>> home in time to watch Roy, Tommy Mac and the guy with the moustache on
>> Woodsmith Shop.
>>
>>
>> If you look at your projects as a series of goals, and divide them into
>> major and minor goals then address the major ones in the design and get
>> as many of the minor ones in as possible you'll most likely get a good
>> result.
>
> Yes, I basically agree. "Lists" are my secret to getting things done. I
> use separate lists for home, work and play.
>
>
> Strive for perfection, but recognize when "good enough" has been
>> attained and stop there.
>
> It's not even easy to get "good enough" out of a lot of people. Good
> luck to you with your results if you request it! I can see the stacks of
> folded shirts at JC Penny's now which are folded "good enough"! : )
>
> Cheers,
> Bill
>
>>
>> Puckdropper
>>
>

Bill wrote:
> dadiOH wrote:
>
>> There are times when strict adherence to a plan is necessary but
>> IMO& IME hobbyist woodworking is not among them.
>>
>
> Where does designing jigs, for instance, fit in there? That's about
> the last thing I want to have to do when the planets are aligned and
> I have the time to actually be running machinery. I would confess,
> if I ended up in that position, that I hadn't planned well.

I don't know where it fits.

Jigs are a result of a need, either a onetime or frequent need. For one
time use, down and dirty is good enough. For others, I try to build in some
versatility. As an example, consider my ex-step father in law...

One time he visited he spied my newly made router table. He then set out to
design his. He spent five years - FIVE YEARS - doing so. Many, many plan
revisions. Highly detailed plans (he was an enginner/draughtsman).

His final revision called for it to be put together with mortise and tenon
joints. Don't ask me why, I don't know but it presented a problem for him so
he made a jig to make them. The jig he made was ONLY good for that one time
use...for the lumber sizes he was using. It would have been easy to make it
so it could be used in a more universal manner.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

Mike Marlow wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>
>>
>> Put me down as a believer. I'm struggling to convert the masses.
>
> So - the guy who has not put nail to wood is attempting to convert the
> masses? Silly.

Yeah, maybe. I'm not really actively seeking potential converts anyway.
I just want to identify them, for now! ; )


>
>> I
>> think it's a great deal easier to become a believer AFTER you've
>> learned your way around SU a bit.
>
> That's a fine belief, but how do you really expect to convince people who
> actually perform the work you dream of, without all of that elaborate
> planning?
>
>> Everytime I use SU, it shows me my
>> technique isn't all that good, but that's a work in progress! %-)
>
> Wait until you discover what your hammer and your saw actually show you.
>

Bill wrote:

> I'll be able to get back to ww stuff soon.
>
> The AC broke today (only blows room temperature air). But, I'm a little
> ahead of the game this year, compared to last year when it also broke
> (twice: solenoid and a pin-hole leak). I had mentioned it last year,
> else I wouldn't have brought it up. I just examined the solenoid, and it
> is not "split" like last year, so it's time to call a pro.


Anyway, for my $90 diagnostic inspection, the Heating & AC pro deduced
that the fan motor is froze (i.e. broken). This is the fan motor that
sits right on top of the unit, attached to the underside of the cover.

After sitting in his truck for a quite a while, he came out and said it
would be $725 more to fix it. He suggested I consider buying a new unit
instead of putting so much money into an 11 year old unit. He had no
idea how much that would cost (but eventually he said $5K-10K), but he
could have his salespeople out tomorrow.

Concerning the motor, he would not separate parts from labor, had no
idea how much the parts actually cost, and would not even wave the $90
inspection fee if I paid the $725. I'm not really faulting him for the
first two, I'm just sayin' (they must not need the work very bad).

So I told him I would try to replace the motor myself.

Maybe God is guiding me to do electrical work instead of woodworking? : )

Over $500 to install a motor I can see (it's not like it's hidden behing
an alternator)? Grumble, grumble, $%#@#@!!!

It felt strange to pass on the repair, but I have no regrets so far.
So far it's hot, but nice not feeling like a victim. He wasn't going
to replace it today anyway, so I'd still be hot! : )

Bill