"r payne" wrote:
> I got a look as some of their tools today. While they do seem
quality
> tools and have some nice features I don't see anything that to me
> justifies the cost. Can anyone with experience with the tools tell
me
> why they cost 2-4X what a good quality tool cost?
They are German.
Much as that sounds strictly like a smart ass comment, it is designed
to convey a message.
In our everyday life, we represent some German companies selling their
products here in the US.
Almost always, they are higher priced than their competitors.
Getting that first order is often a challenge.
However, once a customer uses a product, recognises the engineering
content, the cost becomes much less of an issue.
I have not used any Festool products, but the above probably applies.
That said, you have to make the decision whether they are a worthwill
investment for your application.
Have fun.
Lew
[email protected] wrote:
> If you put the Festool
> circular saw next to the ones above, and it is different. It looks
> different. Its used differently. It handles differently. Its still
> callled a circular saw but that is about its only thing in common with
> the above list of saws. It comes with a guide and is built to use
> that guide. It comes ready for dust collection. It has soft start
> motor. It has electronics that keep the rpm constant. It has various
> speed levels for different blades and material being cut. It has a
> pluge mechanism to make blind cuts. None of the saws in the list
> above have these features.
Just thought I'd point out that Makita and DeWalt now have plunge saws
with guide rails. However, they're priced close to Festool.
Chris
"dpb" wrote:
> What they've done is go from the pro-only to the high-end consumer and
> hobby market (in the US). W/ that they've used the "elitist touch" quite
> successfully to move the talk from "damn! that's expensive" walk away to
> the discussions like this one--"tha's a damn fine tool even at that
> price.".
Think maybe they took a page from book of their neighbor Mercedes?
Lew
"Robatoy" wrote:
>Okay then:
How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
your house for all to see.
Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
hardly a big enough audience to try to impress. Personally, I bought
that product because it is outstanding.
And that is a helluvalot more than I can say for Mercedes.
The key word is "perception" or "perceived value".
They are not selling the steak, they are selling the sizzle.
It just so happens it is also a pretty good steak.
To pull it off, they need only to create the need in the gut of the buyer.
Lew
"r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I got a look as some of their tools today. While they do seem quality
> tools and have some nice features I don't see anything that to me
> justifies the cost. Can anyone with experience with the tools tell me
> why they cost 2-4X what a good quality tool cost?
>
> ron
>
I have their CT 22 vacuum, the Domino, and the 125 Rotex sander. Why pay
more? Test drive one.
For me the vacuum is, most of all, QUIET. ;~) It mates with almost every
Festool tool flawlessly and rolls around beautifully. The Domino is, well a
one of a kind tool. The Domino was initially why I bought a Festool tool.
the vacuum was pretty much necessary and I did not want to listen to the
typical shop vac any more. Robatoy has always tooted his whistle about his
Rotex sanders and I was ready to retire my dust spewing 18 year old PC right
angle ROS. The Rotex runs circles around the PC and sucks up 99% of all the
dust with the vac.
Put your hands on one and demo the tool and you should see why the price is
higher. 3 year warranty, 30 day money back guarantee IIRC. Cases that are
stackable and latch on to each other. Detachable power cords that can be
left with the vac and used on other Festool tools. Oddly, I have come to
like the Festool pricing policy. Your local dealer will be the cheapest
place to buy the tool because every one has to sell the tool for the price
that Festool suggests. I cannot say that I have ever heard of anyone
bitching about a Festool tool. I will add that I find the Festool sand
paper to not be far out of line with the competition. For the Rubin 5" H&L
disks you pay $19.50 for 50 disks. Dust extraction is so good that the disk
lasts longer and so far they do not get clogged up. You have to rely on
seeing progress slow down to know when to change out the paper. The paper
typically looks brand new after use.
If money is tight or you are going to be an occasional user the Festool may
not be right for you. If money is not an issue rest assured that you will
enjoy the experience of owning and using one. With the 30 day money back
guarantee you have little to risk.
BTY the less expensive ETS125 ROS sander can be held in place and guided
with a very light tough of your finger centered on the top. $165.00. If
you buy a vac at the same time most all tools offer a discount on the combo.
"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Thx for all the info on the paper, so I'm thinking of the 150 FEQ Dual
> Mode Sander, it comes with a soft pad, why would I need a hard one? Any
> other thoughts on other accessories I should consider with this one? Or do
> you prefer a different sander ? Thx for all the feedback.
What is a FEQ 150 sander? I did not see it on the Festool web site.
The soft pad is good for most all general sanding. The hard pad would be
good/better for sanding narrow surfaces that are considerably smaller than
the pad itself such as the edge of a board or sanding past the edge of a
flat surface. The harder pad helps to prevent rounding the edges.
"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:18:16 +0000, r payne wrote:
>
>> I was there for a bit just before i started this thread, but after
>> standing in front of the display and handling the tools for maybe 20
>> minutes all
>> I could say was "they have some nice features but I don't see twice the
>> cost".
>> And during all that time no one came over to answer any questions I may
>> have or
>> offer a demo.
>
> That bothers me. I hope it wasn't a Woodcraft store. I can assure you
> that wouldn't happen in the Woodcraft where I work. We've got some
> employees who are so sold on Festool that they get positively gleeful at
> the opportunity to show them off :-).
>
LOL, I have a brand new Woodcraft store near me that has the full array of
Festool equipment. Every time I mention Festool they direct me to the
display and start showing me the Domino. I have to remind them that I have
had a Domino longer than their store has been existence. And then they
kinda frown.
On Feb 22, 10:18=A0pm, r payne <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> > "r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> > > "[email protected]" wrote:
>
> > > SNIP
>
> > >> =A0It comes with a guide and is built to use
> > >> that guide. =A0It comes ready for dust collection. =A0It has soft sta=
rt
> > >> motor. =A0It has electronics that keep the rpm constant. =A0It has va=
rious
> > >> speed levels for different blades and material being cut. =A0It has a=
> > >> pluge mechanism to make blind cuts.
>
> > >> SNIP
>
> > > Now we are getting =A0to the nuts and bolts. =A0This is what I was loo=
king
> > > for.
>
> > Wee geez r payne. =A0Be more specific. =A0Most any tool can be had that =
is ready
> > with dust collection, soft start, ESC and or variable speed.
>
> > Might I add the stunning black color highlighted by the green knobs and
> > switches. ;~)
>
> > Just kidding. =A0Really, these tools don't leave any features out that I=
can
> > think of. =A0If there is a particular tool that you want to know about i=
t may
> > be easier to answer your questions. =A0Most every Festool has 1 or more =
unique
> > features that stand out from the competition.
>
> > OK, now I am ordering you to take a couple of hours off and look at the
> > array of tools that you dealer will have. =A0It is eye candy galore and =
you
> > will be saying geeeee, those are cool features. =A0;~)
>
> There is one dealer in town, all other dealers would take most of a day to=
drive
> and visit. =A0I was there for a bit just before i started this thread, but=
after
> standing in front of the display and handling the tools for maybe 20 minut=
es all
> I could say was "they have some nice features but I don't see twice the co=
st".
Some of the features on some of the Festool tools probably justify the
twice the price. The circular saw and guide rail system and the
Domino are the ones I think have unique features you cannot find
elsewhere. So for them its twice the cost of nothing. No one else
has a tool with those features. (I know several brands recently came
out with plunge saws and guide rails as mentioned in another thread.)
Some tools like the jigsaw and some of the sanders, its hard to
justify the twice the price. I have one of their orbital sanders and
its nice. But twice as nice? Jigsaw is a jigsaw basically. Some
rave about the Rotex sander. Maybe it is a unique sander and
justifies the twice the price. Haven't used it. I recall an article
on cabinet installation in Tools of the Trade by the bearded skinny
Rhode Island guy. He used the Festool cordless drill. The $400+ one
with the eccentric and 90 degree chucks and removable chuck to make it
a very short maneuverable 1/4" hex driver. I don't install enough
cabinets to justify a tool that has useful and unique features like
the cordless drill. But he might and the tool cost is immaterial when
installing $50,000 kitchens once a month. Those extra features more
than pay for themselves. I like the circular saw and guide rail. But
if I was a framer/roofer cutting OSB for sheathing I would have no
need for the Festool accuracy. A 2x4 guide rail is more than good
enough. Or a freehand cut is good enough with enough experience. So
a roofer/framer would have no need for the Festool circular saw unique
features. But someone who does not have a sliding panel saw may be
able to get similar results, but slower, with the Festool when cutting
hardwood veneered plywood. Maybe comparing the Festool circular saw
to a sliding tablesaw is a more appropriate comparison than a
sidewinder saw. Maybe.
> And during all that time no one came over to answer any questions I may ha=
ve or
> offer a demo. =A0From what has been posted there may be some new innovatio=
ns and
> new innovations always cost more. =A0So I think I'll wait a couple of year=
s and
> see what happens in the market. =A0Although I sounds like what I would try=
to
> design if I was to build one.
>
> ron- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
On Feb 23, 10:39=A0pm, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > Think maybe they took a page from book of their neighbor Mercedes?
>
> Yep...I had thought that precisely, actually...
>
> --
People buy Mercedes for functionality?
Status symbols, maybe?
As cars go, they're not all they are made out to be.
You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
My point, if I have one, is once you go beyond some price for a given thing you
are no longer paying for an increase in quality. As a carpenter I've used
Bosch, Makita, DeWalt, Ryobi, Rigid, Craftsman, Porter Cable and others. Some
are better than others and in general the better once cost some more. But from
what I've seen there is not enough improvement in Festool to justify costing so
much more than what else is out there. That is why I asked for opinions from
those who have used them.
ron
Peter Bogiatzidis wrote:
> Ron,
>
> If the 2-4X the cost of a good quality tool wasn't enough for you, here's a
> heads up on the upcoming Festool price increase. This, according to a recent
> message from McFeely's.
>
> http://www.mcfeelys.com/info/festool-alert.htm
>
> You may want to look at some of the closeout items that appear at times when
> new products are introduced. I picked up a PS-2 jigsaw that way and am very
> pleased with it. Very smooth cuts and easy to use.
>
> Peter.
>
> "r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >I got a look as some of their tools today. While they do seem quality
> > tools and have some nice features I don't see anything that to me
> > justifies the cost. Can anyone with experience with the tools tell me
> > why they cost 2-4X what a good quality tool cost?
> >
> > ron
> >
Leon wrote:
> "r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > My point, if I have one, is once you go beyond some price for a given
> > thing you
> > are no longer paying for an increase in quality. As a carpenter I've used
> > Bosch, Makita, DeWalt, Ryobi, Rigid, Craftsman, Porter Cable and others.
> > Some
> > are better than others and in general the better once cost some more. But
> > from
> > what I've seen there is not enough improvement in Festool to justify
> > costing so
> > much more than what else is out there. That is why I asked for opinions
> > from
> > those who have used them.
>
> Well the Festool line of tools are not what I could consider "carpenter
> tools". Carpenters generally don't require the precision unless they are
> getting into built in cabinets. With the Festool line one could get closer
> to furniture grade wood working and maybe with out the need or a TS or RAS.
> The way you are speaking it seems that you have not actually used a Festool
> tool. For the most part Festool is not so much the single tool as much as
> it is a system that permits sawing, sanding, or routing inside someone's
> home. In addition to the perceived limited increase in quality that you
> mention the tools tend to out perform as well.
I thought I said I had not used them. And I have done built in cabinets and
worked on million dollar houses. In my experience a top quality blade and good
straight edge makes more difference than brand of tool if there is a minimum
level of quality. Bosch, Rigid, Makita, Porter Cable and DeWalt generally meet
that minimum quality. Older Craftsman do as well. The rest is the skill of the
user and I don't see any improvement short of a panel saw that will compensate
for that.
I'm not trying to run down Festool even if it may seem that way, I'm just trying
to understand the expense of the tool, is there that much bang for the buck?
ron
"[email protected]" wrote:
SNIP
> It comes with a guide and is built to use
> that guide. It comes ready for dust collection. It has soft start
> motor. It has electronics that keep the rpm constant. It has various
> speed levels for different blades and material being cut. It has a
> pluge mechanism to make blind cuts.
> SNIP
Now we are getting to the nuts and bolts. This is what I was looking for.
ron
Leon wrote:
> "r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> >
> > "[email protected]" wrote:
> >
> > SNIP
> >
> >> It comes with a guide and is built to use
> >> that guide. It comes ready for dust collection. It has soft start
> >> motor. It has electronics that keep the rpm constant. It has various
> >> speed levels for different blades and material being cut. It has a
> >> pluge mechanism to make blind cuts.
> >
> >> SNIP
> >
> > Now we are getting to the nuts and bolts. This is what I was looking
> > for.
>
> Wee geez r payne. Be more specific. Most any tool can be had that is ready
> with dust collection, soft start, ESC and or variable speed.
>
> Might I add the stunning black color highlighted by the green knobs and
> switches. ;~)
>
> Just kidding. Really, these tools don't leave any features out that I can
> think of. If there is a particular tool that you want to know about it may
> be easier to answer your questions. Most every Festool has 1 or more unique
> features that stand out from the competition.
>
> OK, now I am ordering you to take a couple of hours off and look at the
> array of tools that you dealer will have. It is eye candy galore and you
> will be saying geeeee, those are cool features. ;~)
There is one dealer in town, all other dealers would take most of a day to drive
and visit. I was there for a bit just before i started this thread, but after
standing in front of the display and handling the tools for maybe 20 minutes all
I could say was "they have some nice features but I don't see twice the cost".
And during all that time no one came over to answer any questions I may have or
offer a demo. From what has been posted there may be some new innovations and
new innovations always cost more. So I think I'll wait a couple of years and
see what happens in the market. Although I sounds like what I would try to
design if I was to build one.
ron
Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:18:16 +0000, r payne wrote:
>
> > I was there for a bit just before i started this thread, but after
> > standing in front of the display and handling the tools for maybe 20 minutes all
> > I could say was "they have some nice features but I don't see twice the cost".
> > And during all that time no one came over to answer any questions I may have or
> > offer a demo.
>
> That bothers me. I hope it wasn't a Woodcraft store. I can assure you
> that wouldn't happen in the Woodcraft where I work. We've got some
> employees who are so sold on Festool that they get positively gleeful at
> the opportunity to show them off :-).
No it wasn't Woodcraft. I wish there was a Woodcraft store close enought to go to.
This one is a local store owned by a fellow I've had some other dealings with and even
though it is the closest thing to a woodworking tool store less than an hours drive,
it wouldn't bother me if it was gone.
ron
Late again to a thread but here goes.
Re: Marketing to Elitists
When I find a tool or machine that works as well or better than
the tool or machine I'm currently using - and it's notably eaiser
to use and faster (those two go together), I'm very interested.
If I buy it and it doesn't live up to expectations I tell other
woodworkers who are considering getting one why I personally
was disappointed by the tool or machine. And if it meets or
exceeds my expectations I tell other woodworkers who are
considering getting one why I personally like the tool or machine.
In either case, I try to provide emperical data to support my
opinion of the tool or machine.
In the case of the DOMINO, which is often perceived as merely
a very expensive biscuit cutter, I try and educate woodworkers
who have a need for a tool like the DOMINO. The motivation
is to provide information that may be useful to a purchasing
decision. It's not a show off thing - "look what I can do that
you can't" or "look what I have that you don't" - I enjoy
helping people, to be of service to others - it just seems the
right thing to do.
So let's look at the DOMINO, what it can do and leave the
"Is it worth it? up to others to decide.
The mortise and tenon is a great joint - but it takes some time,
knowledge, skills, abilities and tools to make them. If you lack
any of it's requirements you probably won't use them often, if
at all. So you go with pocket screws and/or biscuits, maybe
even dowels. Each will hold two pieces of wood together end
grain to side grain - square to each other. But each alternative
involves a compromise - in strength, appearance or both.
How much compromise you're willing to make is up to you.
Since cutting the mortise part of the mortise and tenon joint
is the most time consuming operation if done with mallet and
chisel, a chisel and bit mortising machine can get you over
that excuse for not using M&T joinery. Most drill presses
either come with a "mortising accessory package" - adapter,
chisels and bits, some sort of fence and hold down. That
makes cutting mortises a little easier and a little quicker
- but not by much.
A little dedicated bench top chisel and bit mortising machine
does the job a bit quicker and quite bit easier than the "drill
press add on" - and they're not prohibitively expensive/
BUT - a really good dedicated chisel and bit mortiser - one with
a 3/4 hp or more motor, nice beefy guides and ways, a long
stout handle, a larger, solid table and fence and a good hold
down and hold in system to keep the stock in place, PLUS some
easily set left/right stops - makes the job SO MUCH EASIER
- to set up and use. Add an XY table, with in/out stops you
can easily set, and the job of cuttng mortises gets even easier
- and more likely to be used.
Now a dedicated horizontal boring/mortising machine will make
cutting mortises even easier and faster - and can be use to
make the tenons as well.
OR - a router based mortising jig will make cut mortises quicker
and easier.
But - after you've done a bunch of mortise and tenon joints
and appreciate this joint - and have a way of quickly and
easily cutting the mortises - in both side grain AND - with a
horizontal boring/mortising machineor router and jig - it soon
becomes obvious that an integral tenon on each end of the
"tenons" part
a) wastes nice wood - the tenons won't be seen
b) is a high risk thing - blow a tenon and you have to make a
WHOLE NEW PART
c) isn't necessary if you can mortise the part that would
normally REQUIRE a tenon and go with a seperate loose
/floating tenon. Just as strong if not stronger and it
can be made from scraps you'd probably otherwise
throw away or burn. AND - the loose/floating tenon
part can be of some other wood - perhaps a stonger/harder
wood if it's size must be small.
So - traditional mortise and tenon joinery gets replaced by
loose/floating tenon joinery, the mortises all done with
a router and jig or a horizontal boring/mortising machine.
Now if you went the mortise and tenon route, starting with
saw, chisel and mallet then upgraded over time through
the mortise cutting machine or machine and jig you'd
have spent as much or more than the whole DOMINO
package - AND you would've spent hours of tedius and
sometimes irritating time setting up and using the tools,
machines and jigs that the DOMINO makes unnecessary.
If you were an advanced beginner, or an intermediate
woodworker (enough experience to appreciate what the
DOMINO does FOR you) wouldn't you want this tool?
Not because it's REALLY EXPENSIVE or LOOKS REALLY
REALLY COOL - but because it will enable you to make
more and better pieces quicker and easier.
So "spreading the word" - for me - is more "evangelical"
- here's a better way. I'm a DOMINO Evangelist. I'm
also a JoinTech Cabinet Maker Router Table System
and AKEDA dovetail jig sytem evangelist. These things
do things other tools and machines CAN do- but do
them quicker, easier and more accurately. In the case
of the JoinTech, it also does things nothing else can
do, at least not anythng I can afford. If I can "enlighten"
a woodworker I've done my job. If that person "converts"
- that's THEIR choice.
Elitist I'm not. Helpful - well I'm working on that one.
charlie b
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Thx for all the info on the paper, so I'm thinking of the 150 FEQ Dual
>> Mode Sander, it comes with a soft pad, why would I need a hard one? Any
>> other thoughts on other accessories I should consider with this one? Or
>> do you prefer a different sander ? Thx for all the feedback.
>
>
> What is a FEQ 150 sander? I did not see it on the Festool web site.
>
Have a look here;
http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/571594/Festool-Rotex-150-FEQ-Dual-Mode-Sander
......and to follow up on what Leon said about the vacuum, I also use
it in conjunction with my Porter Cable 7&1/4 circular saw , my Makita
10 inch CMS and my Leigh dovetail jig dust collector system. (Brand
names mentioned to let you know that the vac hooks up easily to a lot
of different tools- no bragging attempted.) Unlike my older shop vacs
the remote start and small diameter hose are a perfect combo with
these two non-Festool tools. Plus, the clean up is so easy too. The
bags come with their own closure and you can really fill them up
before there is any noticeable loss of performance.
And did I mention in a previous post that my wife loves vaccuming the
house with the CT-22? I may have to buy another one, damnit! (No
smiley face icon but you get my drift.)
Marc (who has no affiliation with
Festool, its dealers, or Tyra Banks but would enjoy any preferential
dealings from any of them in the future.)
Ron,
If the 2-4X the cost of a good quality tool wasn't enough for you, here's a
heads up on the upcoming Festool price increase. This, according to a recent
message from McFeely's.
http://www.mcfeelys.com/info/festool-alert.htm
You may want to look at some of the closeout items that appear at times when
new products are introduced. I picked up a PS-2 jigsaw that way and am very
pleased with it. Very smooth cuts and easy to use.
Peter.
"r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I got a look as some of their tools today. While they do seem quality
> tools and have some nice features I don't see anything that to me
> justifies the cost. Can anyone with experience with the tools tell me
> why they cost 2-4X what a good quality tool cost?
>
> ron
>
On Feb 22, 12:13=A0am, r payne <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> > "r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> > > My point, if I have one, is once you go beyond some price for a given
> > > thing you
> > > are no longer paying for an increase in quality. =A0As a carpenter I'v=
e used
> > > Bosch, Makita, DeWalt, Ryobi, Rigid, Craftsman, Porter Cable and other=
s.
> > > Some
> > > are better than others and in general the better once cost some more. =
=A0But
> > > from
> > > what I've seen there is not enough improvement in Festool to justify
> > > costing so
> > > much more than what else is out there. =A0That is why I asked for opin=
ions
> > > from
> > > those who have used them.
>
> > Well the Festool line of tools are not what I could consider "carpenter
> > tools". =A0Carpenters generally don't require the precision unless they =
are
> > getting into built in cabinets. =A0With the Festool line one could get c=
loser
> > to furniture grade wood working and maybe with out the need or a TS or R=
AS.
> > The way you are speaking it seems that you have not actually used a Fest=
ool
> > tool. =A0For the most part Festool is not so much the single tool as muc=
h as
> > it is a system that permits sawing, sanding, or routing inside someone's=
> > home. =A0In addition to the perceived limited increase in quality that y=
ou
> > mention the tools tend to out perform as well.
>
> I thought I said I had not used them. =A0And I have done built in cabinets=
and
> worked on million dollar houses. =A0In my experience a top quality blade a=
nd good
> straight edge makes more difference than brand of tool if there is a minim=
um
> level of quality. =A0Bosch, Rigid, Makita, Porter Cable and DeWalt general=
ly meet
> that minimum quality. =A0Older Craftsman do as well. =A0The rest is the sk=
ill of the
> user and I don't see any improvement short of a panel saw that will compen=
sate
> for that.
>
> I'm not trying to run down Festool even if it may seem that way, I'm just =
trying
> to understand the expense of the tool, is there that much bang for the buc=
k?
>
> ron
The quality increase, relative to dollars spent, seems to be
exponential.
Is a Festool worth the money? Absolutely.
It all has to do with what a tool is worth to you. If you have the
damn thing in your hands all day, and you want consistent and reliable
results, what is an extra couple of hundred dollars over the life-time
of the tool?
Having said that (Strunk & White roll over in their graves every time
somebody say that, btw) I don't believe that ALL Festool tools are
worth their premium. The Bosch jigsaw comes to mind, so do misc.
cordless drills/drivers. Nice, but too rich for my blood.
Plunge saws and sanders, and even that # 2000 router, well, there
simply isn't anything that compares.
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 11:13:13 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>Amazing what some judicious upscale pretentiousness can do in a
>marketing campaign isn't it??? :)
That really isn't true with most Festool items.
Even though I think Systainers are overpriced, every Festool _tool_
I've tried really has been far above the competition. The guys who
use them all day long for a living, and were nice enough to let me, a
part timer try them, also learned of them on job sites where someone
let them try them. There is a 30 day, no questions asked satisfaction
guarantee on Festool products.
In the flying community, Bose communication headsets often draw the
same comments from folks who haven't used them. Hype! Pretentious! A
$1000 headset? etc... Bose also offers a 30 day guarantee. While
most folks with a musical ear will agree that Bose stereo equipment is
typically over-hyped and overpriced, I don't know of a pilot who's
ever returned a Bose aviation headset after actually flying with it
for the 30 day trial. I can say the same for Festool.
Next time you need a tool, try Festool. On the other hand, use any
other brand of tool for 30 days, as you normally would, and try to
return it. <G>
The good news is that markets aren't static. Festool will seriously
change the handheld power tool world, just as the cordless drill, the
biscuit joiner, and the nail gun did. Mark my words!
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:05:47 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I _still_ think they're overpriced, though, and that their marketing
>plays into the elitist club thing.
Elitist marketing causes buyer's remorse once the item is in use. It
works great in the short run. Where's the Festool race car?
This elitist marketed tool has a no questions asked return policy,
still available AFTER you use the tool heavily. But the reality is
many Festool buyers are repeat customers. How many other tool
manufacturers have the confidence to offer a 100% money back
guarantee?
Don't you think all the pros (where a tool is simply overhead) who use
them would have returned them in favor for the 1/3-1/2 price
competitor?
Why would the same guys buy more of them?
I'm not talking about yuppies who never use the stuff except as a
collection to walk the buddies through, but the guys who often work
alone, with nobody to impress. I'm also not talking about the guys
who hang out in front of Home Depot and hack together storage sheds,
vinyl siding, and basic decks.
I own zero Festool products right now, so I'm not justifying my own
purchases. It's just that every one of their tools I've fondled has
been a fantastic item with advances, creating real value. Kinda' like
a powered version of a Lie Nielsen tool.
I thought LN was elitist, until I used one... <G>
On Feb 20, 10:29 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> However, once a customer uses a product, recognises the engineering
> content, the cost becomes much less of an issue.
>
> I have not used any Festool products, but the above probably applies.
Just got some, but no time yet to do much. The engineering is obvious,
from the get-go. Results? Later for that, but I expect nothing
marginal and much excellence. We shall see.
Hello Ron,
My only experience in comparing tools was the Festool sanders (Rotex
and Delta shape oscilating sanders) to some other brands that I've
owned or demo'd. I was impressed with the little amount of dust the
Festool left behind and the minimal vibration I encountered. The
sanders felt very stabile and the finish they left was better than I
was ever able to obtain in my prior attempts at sanding. I'm sure
there is a lot of subjectivity in my opinion but I used to hate the
sanding part of my woodworking projects and now I enjoy hooking up my
two festool sanders to their vacuum and spending an evening sanding.
Altough I also bought a Domino, I never had any experience with a
biscuit type joiner but the Domino made it all look so easy (and it
is!) and I'm pleased with the my purchase.
Do I think they are worth 2 to 4 times the cost of other tools?
"Yes", if you can afford it and "Yes", if it makes you feel better
using it. Or "No", if you think you can do just as well with a
modestly priced tool.
Marc
On Feb 20, 9:45=A0pm, r payne <[email protected]> wrote:
> I got a look as some of their tools today. =A0While they do seem quality
> tools and have some nice features I don't see anything that to me
> justifies the cost. =A0Can anyone with experience with the tools tell me
> why they cost 2-4X what a good quality tool cost?
>
> ron
On Feb 21, 8:21=A0am, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "marc rosen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > ......and to follow up on what Leon said about the vacuum, I also use
> > it in conjunction with my Porter Cable 7&1/4 circular saw , my Makita
> > 10 inch CMS and my Leigh dovetail jig dust collector system. =A0(Brand
> > names mentioned to let you know that the vac hooks up easily to a lot
> > of different tools- no bragging attempted.) Unlike my older shop vacs
> > the remote start and small diameter hose are a perfect combo with
> > these two non-Festool tools. Plus, the clean up is so easy too. =A0The
> > bags come with their own closure and you can really fill them up
> > before there is any noticeable loss of performance.
> > And did I mention in a previous post that my wife loves vaccuming the
> > house with the CT-22? =A0I may have to buy another one, damnit! (No
> > smiley face icon but you get my drift.)
> > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Marc (who has=
no affiliation with
> > Festool, its dealers, or Tyra Banks but would enjoy any preferential
> > dealings from any of them in the future.)
>
> Works great with the Kreg pocket hole jig also.
Yup, that's when the auto-start really shines.
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:
>> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 11:13:13 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Amazing what some judicious upscale pretentiousness can do in a
>>> marketing campaign isn't it??? :)
>>
>> That really isn't true with most Festool items.
>>
>> Even though I think Systainers are overpriced, every Festool _tool_
>> I've tried really has been far above the competition. ...
>
> You notice I didn't say the tool wasn't a good tool...
>
> I _still_ think they're overpriced, though, and that their marketing plays
> into the elitist club thing. W/ sufficient markup on individual tools,
> they don't need the tremendous volume. Great for them if they can
> continue to make it work.
Festool has been around for a very very long time, just not in the spot
light until some what recently. I suspect that if the pricing policy did
not work it would have been changed many years ago. Fortunately the pricing
policy affords the dealer the ability to get involved with the customer more
so that other brands.
asmurff wrote:
> It's like buying a 4-wheel drive to get to and from work in town where it
> rarely ever snows, and has never had mud on it.
Which we all know happens all the time. That's why people have these big
4WD SUVs that have never left the asphalt.
--
Blog Me! http://BitchSpot.JadeDragonOnline.com
"marc rosen" wrote in message
> I thought about bridging the gap
> between 120 and 240 but I don't really see the need.
Interesting ... Must be something to do with the Rotex because I've never
been able to get away with that big a gap when 'running through the grits'?
I've seen Leon's Rotex in action, was suitably envious, but it's sinfully
rich for my poor boy blood ... at least until I get this last kid out of
college, which could mean that I'll have to go back to hand sanding through
all the grits:)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 12/14/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"asmurff" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> It's like buying a 4-wheel drive to get to and from work in town where it
> rarely ever snows, and has never had mud on it.
>
Some people I know buy SUV's to get a sturdy vehicle that will protect them
in a crash. Also, 4 wheel drive can be useful (and safer) on rain slick
surfaces. Modern cars that are lightweight and fuel efficent don't stand up
well to accidents.
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
>> You tell me.
>
> How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
> your house for all to see.
> Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
> hardly a big enough audience to try to impress.
>
> Sure, you're right. But, under the right circumstances, one person is a
> big
> enough audience to try to impress. Given the chance to show off a new tool
> to woodworking buddies, most people would go for it. I'm not embarrassed
> to
> say that if I had some woodworking friends in my workshop, I'd likely pull
> a
> Festool Domino out of its case to show it around. It wouldn't come close
> to
> the status symbol of a new car sitting in the driveway, but it would still
> make me feel good to show off a new toy ~ a new toy that most others
> wouldn't have.
Swingman had to sit through my presentation of my Domino. I don't think he
had to cringe too much. :~)
It was pay back, he showed me his Multrouter first. LOL
"r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> My point, if I have one, is once you go beyond some price for a given
> thing you
> are no longer paying for an increase in quality. As a carpenter I've used
> Bosch, Makita, DeWalt, Ryobi, Rigid, Craftsman, Porter Cable and others.
> Some
> are better than others and in general the better once cost some more. But
> from
> what I've seen there is not enough improvement in Festool to justify
> costing so
> much more than what else is out there. That is why I asked for opinions
> from
> those who have used them.
Well the Festool line of tools are not what I could consider "carpenter
tools". Carpenters generally don't require the precision unless they are
getting into built in cabinets. With the Festool line one could get closer
to furniture grade wood working and maybe with out the need or a TS or RAS.
The way you are speaking it seems that you have not actually used a Festool
tool. For the most part Festool is not so much the single tool as much as
it is a system that permits sawing, sanding, or routing inside someone's
home. In addition to the perceived limited increase in quality that you
mention the tools tend to out perform as well.
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Leon wrote:
> ...
>> ...I suspect that if the pricing policy did not work it would have been
>> changed many years ago. ...
>
> Think??? :)
>
> What they've done is go from the pro-only to the high-end consumer and
> hobby market (in the US). W/ that they've used the "elitist touch" quite
> successfully to move the talk from "damn! that's expensive" walk away to
> the discussions like this one--"tha's a damn fine tool even at that
> price.".
>
> I _still_ don't think they're actually _worth_ the premium, but as you
> say, it's a model that seemingly works for them.
And for you and many others the brand very well may be a waste of money.
Personally I think Skil and Ryobi are over priced.
"Chris Friesen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>> If you put the Festool
>> circular saw next to the ones above, and it is different. It looks
>> different. Its used differently. It handles differently. Its still
>> callled a circular saw but that is about its only thing in common with
>> the above list of saws. It comes with a guide and is built to use
>> that guide. It comes ready for dust collection. It has soft start
>> motor. It has electronics that keep the rpm constant. It has various
>> speed levels for different blades and material being cut. It has a
>> pluge mechanism to make blind cuts. None of the saws in the list
>> above have these features.
>
> Just thought I'd point out that Makita and DeWalt now have plunge saws
> with guide rails. However, they're priced close to Festool.
Add PC to the list but like the other 2 it is not yet available to all.
IIRC Europe have them but they are not yet available in the US.
No I don't think people buy tools as a status symbol. I believe most of us
buy the best we can afford taking into account the amount of use, our skill
levels and whether we are DIYers, avid hobbyist or professionals. And we do
have to take into account our income.
--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robatoy" wrote:
>
> You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
>
> You tell me.
>
> Lew
>
>
"marc rosen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ......and to follow up on what Leon said about the vacuum, I also use
> it in conjunction with my Porter Cable 7&1/4 circular saw , my Makita
> 10 inch CMS and my Leigh dovetail jig dust collector system. (Brand
> names mentioned to let you know that the vac hooks up easily to a lot
> of different tools- no bragging attempted.) Unlike my older shop vacs
> the remote start and small diameter hose are a perfect combo with
> these two non-Festool tools. Plus, the clean up is so easy too. The
> bags come with their own closure and you can really fill them up
> before there is any noticeable loss of performance.
> And did I mention in a previous post that my wife loves vaccuming the
> house with the CT-22? I may have to buy another one, damnit! (No
> smiley face icon but you get my drift.)
> Marc (who has no affiliation with
> Festool, its dealers, or Tyra Banks but would enjoy any preferential
> dealings from any of them in the future.)
>
Works great with the Kreg pocket hole jig also.
"CM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Please quit talking about the virtues of Festool as I am extra poor this
> year.
>
> cm
I have recently learned to appreciate the ability to let my imagination
become my reality on items that I cannot afford. It helps in knowing that
if I study the item to death and learn all of its details that it only costs
me my time. The plus side to not actually making the purchase is that I can
imagine making another purchase immediately. LOL
In our spare time my wife and I enjoy looking at homes that uh... are way
out of our league. We can imagine what it would be like to own such a home
but when the reality sets in from the point of view of payments, taxes,
insurance, etc we can imagine another home with out having to sell. ;~)
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:b4e06131-3db1-4d72-a9d8-45a6fa973450@h11g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 21, 5:06 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:70fff63d-a986-4e15-8da8-3af4df92865c@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > On Feb 20, 10:29 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> However, once a customer uses a product, recognises the engineering
>> >> content, the cost becomes much less of an issue.
>>
>> >> I have not used any Festool products, but the above probably applies.
>>
>> > Just got some, but no time yet to do much. The engineering is obvious,
>> > from the get-go. Results? Later for that, but I expect nothing
>> > marginal and much excellence. We shall see.
>>
>> Charlie, what tool/tools in particular did you get?
>
> Lessee. I can't get to the vac at the moment, but there's a PSB 300EQ+
> jigsaw, an ETS 150/3 EQ+ ROS, and a TS 55 EQ+ circular saw.
Ok, that really sucks! ;~) No Domino???? LOL
If you don't mind me asking, is this group of tools for a review? I would
really be interested in your thoughts on the Circle Saw when ever you get
around to it. Of course if you are doing this as a review and for hire/pay
I would be interested in knowing the publication the review would be
appearing in.
Enjoy the tools.
Hey Leon,
My paper selection is 80, 120, 240 and 320 and I stop at 240 for most
of my projects but for some I will go to 320 (with either sander;
Rotex RO 150 E+ or the DTS 400). I thought about bridging the gap
between 120 and 240 but I don't really see the need.
I also bought a small pack of 400 but this is so rarely used on wood.
My other hobby is windsurfing and I have a few boards to repair from
last season (epoxy outer skin over carbon fiber) so I plan to try out
my sanders on them when it gets time to make the repairs. The 400
will get used at that time.
Marc
On Feb 23, 11:51=A0pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Robatoy" wrote:
>
> You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
>
> You tell me.
>
> Lew
Okay then:
How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
your house for all to see.
Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
hardly a big enough audience to try to impress. Personally, I bought
that product because it is outstanding.
And that is a helluvalot more than I can say for Mercedes.
On Feb 21, 5:06 pm, "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:70fff63d-a986-4e15-8da8-3af4df92865c@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Feb 20, 10:29 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> However, once a customer uses a product, recognises the engineering
> >> content, the cost becomes much less of an issue.
>
> >> I have not used any Festool products, but the above probably applies.
>
> > Just got some, but no time yet to do much. The engineering is obvious,
> > from the get-go. Results? Later for that, but I expect nothing
> > marginal and much excellence. We shall see.
>
> Charlie, what tool/tools in particular did you get?
Lessee. I can't get to the vac at the moment, but there's a PSB 300EQ+
jigsaw, an ETS 150/3 EQ+ ROS, and a TS 55 EQ+ circular saw.
On Feb 21, 11:13=A0pm, r payne <[email protected]> wrote:
> Leon wrote:
> > "r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> > > My point, if I have one, is once you go beyond some price for a given
> > > thing you
> > > are no longer paying for an increase in quality. =A0As a carpenter I'v=
e used
> > > Bosch, Makita, DeWalt, Ryobi, Rigid, Craftsman, Porter Cable and other=
s.
> > > Some
> > > are better than others and in general the better once cost some more. =
=A0But
> > > from
> > > what I've seen there is not enough improvement in Festool to justify
> > > costing so
> > > much more than what else is out there. =A0That is why I asked for opin=
ions
> > > from
> > > those who have used them.
>
> > Well the Festool line of tools are not what I could consider "carpenter
> > tools". =A0Carpenters generally don't require the precision unless they =
are
> > getting into built in cabinets. =A0With the Festool line one could get c=
loser
> > to furniture grade wood working and maybe with out the need or a TS or R=
AS.
> > The way you are speaking it seems that you have not actually used a Fest=
ool
> > tool. =A0For the most part Festool is not so much the single tool as muc=
h as
> > it is a system that permits sawing, sanding, or routing inside someone's=
> > home. =A0In addition to the perceived limited increase in quality that y=
ou
> > mention the tools tend to out perform as well.
>
> I thought I said I had not used them. =A0And I have done built in cabinets=
and
> worked on million dollar houses. =A0In my experience a top quality blade a=
nd good
> straight edge makes more difference than brand of tool if there is a minim=
um
> level of quality. =A0Bosch, Rigid, Makita, Porter Cable and DeWalt general=
ly meet
> that minimum quality. =A0Older Craftsman do as well. =A0The rest is the sk=
ill of the
> user and I don't see any improvement short of a panel saw that will compen=
sate
> for that.
You seem to be missing the obvious point of what makes Festool
different. A Bosch, DeWalt, Porter Cable, Makita, Milwaukee, Hitachi,
Skil, Sears, Black&Decker, etc. circular saw all look alike and act
alike. They are all interchangeable. Spray paint them all the same
color and you cannot tell one from the other. If you put the Festool
circular saw next to the ones above, and it is different. It looks
different. Its used differently. It handles differently. Its still
callled a circular saw but that is about its only thing in common with
the above list of saws. It comes with a guide and is built to use
that guide. It comes ready for dust collection. It has soft start
motor. It has electronics that keep the rpm constant. It has various
speed levels for different blades and material being cut. It has a
pluge mechanism to make blind cuts. None of the saws in the list
above have these features. Some of the other Festool tools have
similar amounts of difference from their common namesake tools from
the manufacturers you listed. Some Festool are very similar to the
general tools and have very little feature differences. The saws and
Domino are probably the most different tools.
Festool has dealers all over the US. You'll have to try one to know
if its worth it.
>
> I'm not trying to run down Festool even if it may seem that way, I'm just =
trying
> to understand the expense of the tool, is there that much bang for the buc=
k?
>
> ron- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 20:17:59 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
I can't understand that parallel, either.
"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
> You tell me.
How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
your house for all to see.
Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
hardly a big enough audience to try to impress.
Sure, you're right. But, under the right circumstances, one person is a big
enough audience to try to impress. Given the chance to show off a new tool
to woodworking buddies, most people would go for it. I'm not embarrassed to
say that if I had some woodworking friends in my workshop, I'd likely pull a
Festool Domino out of its case to show it around. It wouldn't come close to
the status symbol of a new car sitting in the driveway, but it would still
make me feel good to show off a new toy ~ a new toy that most others
wouldn't have.
Does that make me out to flaunt status symbols? Maybe, but it would be a
status symbol that I'd also be using when opportunity called for it. Maybe
the difference is that I like to use my status symbols, not just put them
out solely for display purposes.
"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With all this Festool talk I started looking at the sanders, I have a
> TS75, Domino & ct32. I agree worth it if you can afford it, very happy,
> but on the sanders there is an awful lot of sandpaper to choose from. For
> woodworking which ones do you use?
Yes there are a lot of sand papers to choose from. Keep in mind that
Festool builds these sanders to be used in other professions also. Auto
body, renovation, painting, solid surfaces, etc. Each of those types of
work require different typed of abrasives. Fortunately, for regular wood
working, sanding on bare wood, you can simply choose the Rubin sand paper in
the grits of your choice. Rubin paper starts at 24 and goes through 180
grit. If you need a finer grit you can use the Brilliant in grits 220
through 400.
99.99% of the time I stop at 180 grit so the Rubin paper is all I need. I
initially purchased 120, 150, and 180. As effective as the Rotex sander is
I will probably seldom use the 120 grit. In the aggressive mode the 150 in
pretty darn fast. With the smaller less aggressive ROS sanders the 120 or
lower may be a better choice to start out with.
"r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> "[email protected]" wrote:
>
> SNIP
>
>> It comes with a guide and is built to use
>> that guide. It comes ready for dust collection. It has soft start
>> motor. It has electronics that keep the rpm constant. It has various
>> speed levels for different blades and material being cut. It has a
>> pluge mechanism to make blind cuts.
>
>> SNIP
>
> Now we are getting to the nuts and bolts. This is what I was looking
> for.
Wee geez r payne. Be more specific. Most any tool can be had that is ready
with dust collection, soft start, ESC and or variable speed.
Might I add the stunning black color highlighted by the green knobs and
switches. ;~)
Just kidding. Really, these tools don't leave any features out that I can
think of. If there is a particular tool that you want to know about it may
be easier to answer your questions. Most every Festool has 1 or more unique
features that stand out from the competition.
OK, now I am ordering you to take a couple of hours off and look at the
array of tools that you dealer will have. It is eye candy galore and you
will be saying geeeee, those are cool features. ;~)
Please quit talking about the virtues of Festool as I am extra poor this
year.
cm
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:70fff63d-a986-4e15-8da8-3af4df92865c@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
>> On Feb 20, 10:29 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> However, once a customer uses a product, recognises the engineering
>>> content, the cost becomes much less of an issue.
>>>
>>> I have not used any Festool products, but the above probably applies.
>>
>> Just got some, but no time yet to do much. The engineering is obvious,
>> from the get-go. Results? Later for that, but I expect nothing
>> marginal and much excellence. We shall see.
>>
>>
>
> Charlie, what tool/tools in particular did you get?
>
If it was bought to flaunt it would be pretty dumb IMHO, but if it is used
that is different.
It's like buying a 4-wheel drive to get to and from work in town where it
rarely ever snows, and has never had mud on it.
--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> You think people buy Festool as a status symbol?
>> You tell me.
>
> How would people know you bought any? You don't park them in front of
> your house for all to see.
> Nobody really knows what the hell a Festool is. The few that know are
> hardly a big enough audience to try to impress.
>
> Sure, you're right. But, under the right circumstances, one person is a
> big
> enough audience to try to impress. Given the chance to show off a new tool
> to woodworking buddies, most people would go for it. I'm not embarrassed
> to
> say that if I had some woodworking friends in my workshop, I'd likely pull
> a
> Festool Domino out of its case to show it around. It wouldn't come close
> to
> the status symbol of a new car sitting in the driveway, but it would still
> make me feel good to show off a new toy ~ a new toy that most others
> wouldn't have.
>
> Does that make me out to flaunt status symbols? Maybe, but it would be a
> status symbol that I'd also be using when opportunity called for it. Maybe
> the difference is that I like to use my status symbols, not just put them
> out solely for display purposes.
>
>
>
r payne wrote:
>
> Leon wrote:
>
>> "r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "[email protected]" wrote:
>>>
>>> SNIP
>>>
>>>> It comes with a guide and is built to use
>>>> that guide. It comes ready for dust collection. It has soft start
>>>> motor. It has electronics that keep the rpm constant. It has various
>>>> speed levels for different blades and material being cut. It has a
>>>> pluge mechanism to make blind cuts.
>>>> SNIP
>>> Now we are getting to the nuts and bolts. This is what I was looking
>>> for.
>> Wee geez r payne. Be more specific. Most any tool can be had that is ready
>> with dust collection, soft start, ESC and or variable speed.
>>
>> Might I add the stunning black color highlighted by the green knobs and
>> switches. ;~)
>>
>> Just kidding. Really, these tools don't leave any features out that I can
>> think of. If there is a particular tool that you want to know about it may
>> be easier to answer your questions. Most every Festool has 1 or more unique
>> features that stand out from the competition.
>>
>> OK, now I am ordering you to take a couple of hours off and look at the
>> array of tools that you dealer will have. It is eye candy galore and you
>> will be saying geeeee, those are cool features. ;~)
>
> There is one dealer in town, all other dealers would take most of a day to drive
> and visit. I was there for a bit just before i started this thread, but after
> standing in front of the display and handling the tools for maybe 20 minutes all
> I could say was "they have some nice features but I don't see twice the cost".
> And during all that time no one came over to answer any questions I may have or
> offer a demo. From what has been posted there may be some new innovations and
> new innovations always cost more. So I think I'll wait a couple of years and
> see what happens in the market. Although I sounds like what I would try to
> design if I was to build one.
>
> ron
>
It's interesting isn't it? When I first
saw the Festools advertised, I thought,
oh how pretty and didn't give them a
second thought. I wasn't even aware of
the price differential until a few guys
in here started talking about them.
Other than price, I never heard a
contrary word about any Festool that
was under discussion. Now, they seem to
be well on their way to establishing
industry standards at the high-end,
replacing what most people had faith in
for years: DeWalt and PC.
I really don't have the cash to drop
down on even one of these beauties and I
don't think my skill level warrants one,
but what impresses me the most is the
reviews that have been on the Wreck by
some craftsmen that are very hard to
please; Swing, Leon, charlieb, etc. That
brand is now fixed in my mind as
something to attain to
--
Tanus
www.home.mycybernet.net/~waugh/shop/
Bonehenge (B A R R Y) wrote:
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 11:13:13 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Amazing what some judicious upscale pretentiousness can do in a
>> marketing campaign isn't it??? :)
>
> That really isn't true with most Festool items.
>
> Even though I think Systainers are overpriced, every Festool _tool_
> I've tried really has been far above the competition. ...
You notice I didn't say the tool wasn't a good tool...
I _still_ think they're overpriced, though, and that their marketing
plays into the elitist club thing. W/ sufficient markup on individual
tools, they don't need the tremendous volume. Great for them if they
can continue to make it work.
--
Leon wrote:
...
> ...I suspect that if the pricing policy did
> not work it would have been changed many years ago. ...
Think??? :)
What they've done is go from the pro-only to the high-end consumer and
hobby market (in the US). W/ that they've used the "elitist touch"
quite successfully to move the talk from "damn! that's expensive" walk
away to the discussions like this one--"tha's a damn fine tool even at
that price.".
I _still_ don't think they're actually _worth_ the premium, but as you
say, it's a model that seemingly works for them.
--
My late wife and I use to do the house thing also during the annual Parade
of Homes and pick a Saturday and go and look at nothing but 1,000,000 dollar
homes and in New Mexico that is one hell of a home. I also spend way to
much time researching and admiring tools I may never be able to buy.
Festool got my attention on the decibel rating of the vac alone and as soon
as I find a way to sell one of the grandkids a Domino and that will adorn my
poor old shop.
--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "CM" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Please quit talking about the virtues of Festool as I am extra poor this
>> year.
>>
>> cm
>
> I have recently learned to appreciate the ability to let my imagination
> become my reality on items that I cannot afford. It helps in knowing that
> if I study the item to death and learn all of its details that it only
> costs me my time. The plus side to not actually making the purchase is
> that I can imagine making another purchase immediately. LOL
> In our spare time my wife and I enjoy looking at homes that uh... are way
> out of our league. We can imagine what it would be like to own such a
> home but when the reality sets in from the point of view of payments,
> taxes, insurance, etc we can imagine another home with out having to sell.
> ;~)
>
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:70fff63d-a986-4e15-8da8-3af4df92865c@q78g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 20, 10:29 pm, "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> However, once a customer uses a product, recognises the engineering
>> content, the cost becomes much less of an issue.
>>
>> I have not used any Festool products, but the above probably applies.
>
> Just got some, but no time yet to do much. The engineering is obvious,
> from the get-go. Results? Later for that, but I expect nothing
> marginal and much excellence. We shall see.
>
>
Charlie, what tool/tools in particular did you get?
"marc rosen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a1bf8c3f-1325-48f9-b58c-13773939c95f@p43g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Hey Leon,
> My paper selection is 80, 120, 240 and 320 and I stop at 240 for most
> of my projects but for some I will go to 320 (with either sander;
> Rotex RO 150 E+ or the DTS 400). I thought about bridging the gap
> between 120 and 240 but I don't really see the need.
> I also bought a small pack of 400 but this is so rarely used on wood.
> My other hobby is windsurfing and I have a few boards to repair from
> last season (epoxy outer skin over carbon fiber) so I plan to try out
> my sanders on them when it gets time to make the repairs. The 400
> will get used at that time.
> Marc
I have only seldom used 80 and for the life of me I cannot remember why I
bought that pack. It was for the old PC right angle ROS. I do recall that
it works great for setting down on a 3M Scotch Brite pad to buff my TS top.
;~)
The first time I used my Rotex I was sanding 1.5" wide Poplar edging
attached to 3/4" thick MDF. The Poplar was a bit thicker than the MDF but
the Poplar sanded down even with the MDF almost instantly using 180 grit.
On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 04:18:16 +0000, r payne wrote:
> I was there for a bit just before i started this thread, but after
> standing in front of the display and handling the tools for maybe 20 minutes all
> I could say was "they have some nice features but I don't see twice the cost".
> And during all that time no one came over to answer any questions I may have or
> offer a demo.
That bothers me. I hope it wasn't a Woodcraft store. I can assure you
that wouldn't happen in the Woodcraft where I work. We've got some
employees who are so sold on Festool that they get positively gleeful at
the opportunity to show them off :-).
"r payne" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Snip
> I'm not trying to run down Festool even if it may seem that way, I'm just
> trying
> to understand the expense of the tool, is there that much bang for the
> buck?
>
> ron
>
You have received many answers to question about bang for you buck. Those
of us that own the tool feel that the price is justified. You apparently
are still having a hard time understanding the value through questions and
answers. I'll suggest once again that you put your hands on one an try it
out. There is a 30 money back guarantee so the risk is minimal. Go to
your local dealer for a hands on demonstration.
"Larry Blanchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:28:39 +0000, Leon wrote:
>
>>
>> And for you and many others the brand very well may be a waste of money.
>> Personally I think Skil and Ryobi are over priced.
>
> How about that! Something Leon and I agree on :-).
>
How bout that, Larry. ;~) One of the two of us is not totally
unreasonable. LOL