Sketchup grief again/still...

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:14:50 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 7/18/2018 10:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
>> damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
>> will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
>> look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
>> workers.
>
>Windows and mission-critical should never be used in the same sentence.

Well, don't apply to work in our company then.

Leon wrote:

> I like both, video and text.  Video is great to understand what
> Sketchup is capable of doing.  Hey that is interesting, I did not
> know it could do that.
>
> Text to explain something that you want to do.  Now that I know
> what I want Sketchup to do, the book will explain how to do it.


Exactly!

On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 9:22:45 AM UTC-5, Jack wrote:
> On 7/17/2018 4:01 PM, Leon wrote:
> > On 7/17/2018 9:59 AM, Jack wrote:
> >> On 7/17/2018 10:15 AM, Jack wrote:
> >>> On 7/16/2018 2:59 PM, Leon wrote:
> >>
> >>>> Have you checked with Sketchup?
> >>>
> >>> No. I'm guessing they are only interested in paying customers now. A=
ll
> >>> I did (yesterday) was a DAGS that turned up the issue was/is common w=
ith
> >>> that specific win update. I tried a reinstall w/o removal of SU and =
it
> >>> asked if I wanted to repair errors or remove it. I did the repair
> >>> errors, and that didn't do a thing, nor did changing win compatibilit=
y
> >>> to Win 7 and win 8.
> >>
> >> Did another Google search and found the fix for the select tool.
> >>
> >> Window/preferences/Open GL/Hardware acceleration --- off
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DVnA59j9tEb0
> >>
> >> That fixed it. Hooray for Google and YouTube, and TakNeekwala who
> >> took the time to post the fix.
> >>
> >
> > Great! FWIW there have a series of updates that have been screwing wit=
h
> > my computer in the last few weeks. Further updates have corrected the
> > problems.
>=20
> I've had some issues too, besides the SU thing. For one, I had to=20
> uninstall Nero (CD/DVD burner) for some updates to complete. Wierd,=20
> because after updating, reinstall Nero and it works fine. Also, one=20
> update (I assume) was screwing with my mouse, making it jump all over=20
> the place. Something eventually fixed it sort of (still happens=20
> occasionally).
>=20
> Windows is a strange beast, always has been and basically didn't work at=
=20
> all (imo) until XP and is now useable although it continues to act like=
=20
> a wounded buffalo. It is, and I guess always will be, the worlds worst=
=20
> operation system. A prime example of why monopolies are bad...
>=20
> --=20
> Jack
> Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
> http://jbstein.com

Jack,

I will try to answer as non-prejudicially as possible. I used Dos and Wind=
ows desktop and laptop systems for 30 years. When MS office brought out th=
eir subscription pricing, I subscribed. I worked around computer applicatio=
n and software development most of my career (retired). I came to the concl=
usion that no software product will have a long life cycle with good suppor=
t if there is insufficient income to support it. That=E2=80=99s why the sub=
scription models are becoming the norm.

I threw in the towel on Windows with the intersection of version 8.1 and la=
ptops with higher resolution screens. Font sizing was all over the place d=
epending on which app you used. I also had had it with the slow degradation=
of windows performance due to registry bloat. Upgrading to a new version =
of Windows or doing a clean install with all my apps was a humongous chore.=
I found myself spending 2-3 days a month fussing with the home computer i=
ssues, especially when I got interested in photoshop and lightroom. I also=
was tired of the predictable failures of whatever computer I bought at abo=
ut 3 years of age. Honestly, if MS had come out with version 10 at that tim=
e, I might never have changed. But they didn=E2=80=99t.

Ok, to your questions. I still subscribe to MS office but may drop it next=
year. The apple office products have been steadily enhanced to the point =
that they are quite good. They are =E2=80=9Cdifferent=E2=80=9D in their ap=
proach, but I have found them to be quite robust. They import and export M=
S office docs seemingly transparently. One caveat - if you are a power Exce=
l user and use some of the deep analysis tools that are part of excel, you =
won=E2=80=99t find that anywhere else that I know of.

I purchased the two most powerful Macbook pros available in 2014, including=
highest available processor, dedicated graphics card, 1 TB solid state dri=
ve,16 gb memory, and 15=E2=80=9D high resolution screen. They are still per=
formance beasts to me. The build quality is better than any Windows PC I e=
ver owned. Such things as solid metal construction and superb keyboard are=
apparent. The apple trackpad is so superior to anything under windows, you=
cannot even compare them. As to exorbitant pricing, I still am willing to=
pay it because I see it as a well supported long term investment. I can c=
all apple support and speak to a well trained technician based in Austin. I=
can go to an Apple store and get personal help on software or hardware iss=
ues =E2=80=9Cfor free=E2=80=9D. All of that is part of the exorbitant pri=
ce. I expect my laptop will have a life of at least 7 years. I have been t=
hrough four major operating system version updates with these computers. A=
ll of the updates were free. I have not had a single issue with any update.=
One of these updates included a complete file system re-design to provide=
better performance with solid state drives. It was all transparent to me.=
I have not had to reinstall a single application with these updates. My d=
ays of nursing computers along have long past.

Now, let me say that there is still one windows based application that I co=
uld not replace. That is cutlist plus (finally back on a woodworking topic)=
. I installed a product called Parallels that allows me to run windows sim=
ultaneously under Mac OS. It is amazing. I have an icon on my mac desktop=
that allows me to open and run Cutlist plus in its own window just like an=
y other mac application. It uses the trackpad, printing, clipboard, etc ju=
st like any other Mac app. All of this because of the parallels product. =
I find it hilarious that the cutlist developer does his development on a Ma=
c running windows under Parallels.

I hope this has been useful to you.
Bob

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>> > On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:
>> >
>> >> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
>> >> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
>> >> point it's too late).
>> >
>> > Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.  More basic than
>> > that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
>> > doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
>> > rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.  Push
>> > it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.
>> >
>> >> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
>> >> everything.  I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
>> >> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
>> >> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
>> >> fast.  Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
>> >> Good luck!
>> >
>> > I'll say.  I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
>> > or so.  I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
>> > longer works correctly.  The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
>> > selection.  Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
>> > 2017 (specifically KB4013429)  I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
>> > and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.
>> >
>> > If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
>> > fail miserably before getting off the ground.
>>
>> NO kidding!
>>
>> The solution in 2017
>> > appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
>> > it's automatic update.  I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
>> > yet.
>> >
>> >
>> I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
>> you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
>> be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
>> prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.
>>
>> Have you checked with Sketchup?
>
>I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.
>
>I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.
>
>Both operating systems are fine and well supported.
>
>Bob

Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?

I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
open to hacking, virii, or system failures.

So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
system other than their outrageous pricing.

I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
reasons.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:14:50 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 7/18/2018 10:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
>> damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
>> will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
>> look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
>> workers.
>
>Windows and mission-critical should never be used in the same sentence.

It all depends on your IT person, whether it is you or someone else.

I can remember the days when they said a certain language compiler was
impossible to hack. If I remember right it was "J" something. designed
to operate in scripts or whatever. I was hacking it when they said it
couldn't be done, ya could've fooled me. I thought they were just
joking.

Anyhow, Windows can be tightened down enough to make a grown man cry.
But it does limit what you can do freely.

On Thursday, July 19, 2018 at 12:42:16 PM UTC-4, Spalted Walt wrote:
> DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
> > they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
> > manner and look what happened.
> >
> > It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
> > that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
> > and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
> > to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
> > week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.
>
> Not to pick nits but it was Equifax with the data breach:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYKNhpS744

That's not a picked nit, it's a valid correction. ;-)

That's what I get for trying to slam out a response while running late
getting ready for work.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:18:54 -0400, J. Clarke
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>>> On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> > On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
>>>> >> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
>>>> >> point it's too late).
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.  More basic than
>>>> > that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
>>>> > doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
>>>> > rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.  Push
>>>> > it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
>>>> >> everything.  I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
>>>> >> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
>>>> >> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
>>>> >> fast.  Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
>>>> >> Good luck!
>>>> >
>>>> > I'll say.  I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
>>>> > or so.  I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
>>>> > longer works correctly.  The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
>>>> > selection.  Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
>>>> > 2017 (specifically KB4013429)  I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
>>>> > and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.
>>>> >
>>>> > If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
>>>> > fail miserably before getting off the ground.
>>>>
>>>> NO kidding!
>>>>
>>>> The solution in 2017
>>>> > appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
>>>> > it's automatic update.  I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
>>>> > yet.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
>>>> you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
>>>> be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
>>>> prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.
>>>>
>>>> Have you checked with Sketchup?
>>>
>>>I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.
>>>
>>>I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.
>>>
>>>Both operating systems are fine and well supported.
>>>
>>>Bob
>>
>>Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?
>>
>>I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
>>they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
>>vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
>>personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
>>Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
>>open to hacking, virii, or system failures.
>>
>>So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
>>system other than their outrageous pricing.
>>
>>I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
>>reasons.
>
>The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
>updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
>out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
>schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
>the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
>insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
>would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
>week.
>
>One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
>damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
>will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
>look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
>workers.

John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
it to work.

Now as to it hogging your traffic on a large update, I don't know. It
can create communication problems if they both occur at the same time.

Under win updates you can schedule your active hours.
under advanced update options you can shut off automatically
downloading of updates, with subsequent setup getting ready to reboot
and do the actual install.

PLUS, under advanced/advanced options you can even setup how you would
like things to occur, even the downloading of files.

Biggest drawback to all of this, is not updating your system in a
timely fashion, or skipping daily update checks and be caught with
your pants down when a serious hack is in operation.

Hope some of this helps you.

On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 3:34:34 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:
> I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem to=
=20
> "be able to communicate"... :(
>=20
> I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one restore=
=20
> the defaults?
>=20
> --
Hi All don't dispar !!
I was one of the first autocad dealers back in 1980/81. The secret to using=
any new software is to push all of the buttons you can find. Your objectiv=
e is to get on the same mindset as the project manager for the software. No=
w you can see how they move from one feature to another.

1st exercise I have my students do/learn is to get familure with moving aro=
und the screen with a mouse
2nd click on the measurement tool and drag construction lines move the cons=
truction line in the direction you want the line, then type the exact meas=
urement , do this in all 3 dimensions=20
3rd now all you need to do is grab a drawing tool and carefully move the mo=
use till you see the pointer change then draw from construction line to the=
next
Good luck hope this helps=20
Doc

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:14:43 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:54:08 -0400, J. Clarke
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
>>>he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>>>
>>>It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
>>>way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
>>>own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
>>>lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
>>>probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
>>>it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
>>>also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
>>>upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
>>>is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
>>>settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
>>
>>FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
>>useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
>>machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
>>isn't intended to be a loss-leader.
>>
>>And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
>>inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
>>laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
>>difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
>>slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
>>builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
>>you have a process that can be parallelized.
>
>You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
>Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
>notable with graphics.

Our old machines had Intel graphics, our new machines have Intel
graphics. If graphics mattered to us we would have nvidia.

As for responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, there are times
when we have all cores of the machine running 100% for hours at a
time. We work these machines hard. The only significant performance
gain in our new machines is that they have two more cores than the old
machines--that gets us a performance boost but to get the two more
cores we had to get management approval for the enhanced
configuration--if we had just gone with the ordinary refresh we would
have had the same number of cores as previously.

On Thursday, July 19, 2018 at 12:54:59 PM UTC-4, Spalted Walt wrote:
> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
> > >
> > > Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
> > > they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
> > > manner and look what happened.
> >
> > Experian, where do I begin... As a precaution I locked up all of the 4
> > major credit reporting agencies.
>
> Ok, I know about Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion, but who is the
> fourth?

Innovis, perhaps?

On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
>> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
>> point it's too late).
>
> Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.  More basic than
> that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
> doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
> rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.  Push
> it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.
>
>> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
>> everything.  I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
>> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
>> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
>> fast.  Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
>> Good luck!
>
> I'll say.  I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
> or so.  I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
> longer works correctly.  The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
> selection.  Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
> 2017 (specifically KB4013429)  I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
> and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.
>
> If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
> fail miserably before getting off the ground.

NO kidding!

The solution in 2017
> appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
> it's automatic update.  I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
> yet.
>
>
I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.

Have you checked with Sketchup?

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 09:12:07 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 7/21/2018 7:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:48:49 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>...
>
>>> John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
>>> update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
>>> it to work.
>>
>> Not on my work machine I can't. That's controlled by the IT
>> department.
>>
>> And there are times when we don't _have_ "off hours". There are
>> programs that take a couple of days to run--if an update decides to
>> install and dog down the machine, that could turn into a couple of
>> weeks, and if it decides to force a reboot ten minutes before that
>> process is done then we've lost two days, against a tight deadline.
>...
>
>That's a management problem in IT not being in synch with production --
>a common complaint and one I saw all the time in consulting. Sometimes
>one could educate upper management and get something done; other times
>"not so much", unfortunately. IT departments are extremely good at
>using the fear factor to be able to browbeat technically unsophisticated
>managers.

Yes, we know it's IT's fault. But we can't _do_ anything about it
until IT causes a real disaster.

>> What would help me is Microsoft letting me make my own decisions about
>> what I want to install on my computer.
>
>There's the rub, too -- MS doesn't like the idea that anything is
>"yours", whether it's the OS, Office applications, or even the computer
>itself. From their viewpoint it's all "theirs".

That's the real issue.

>Unfortunately, the mindset is growing amongst all the other vendors as
>well as they see the only way to maintain revenue stream is by forcible
>means--once applications are "good enough" there's no incentive to
>upgrade so the only recourse is obsolescence or subscription.

Unfortunately. Eventually the open source competitors _should_ be
able to match the feature set, however they tend to denigrate features
that are mainly useful to managers and administrators, so that's not
likely to happen.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:46:13 GMT, Puckdropper <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>>
>> Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
>> That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
>> head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
>> matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
>> not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
>> Gates should be in jail just for that alone.
>>
>
>Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
>The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
>something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>
>It's a great example of scope creep. It's a good idea on its face, they
>just went overboard storing stuff in it.

Actually, all user-specific or hardware-specific configuration
information is _supposed_ to go there. What makes it a mess is the
idiot developers who store user-specific information in the hardware
part and vice versa.

The idea is that you log into a different machine with a different
processor and different video and different everything else, your
configuration, your application settings, etc, all go with you, all in
one neat little file.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:42:06 +0000, Spalted Walt
<[email protected]> wrote:

>DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
>> they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
>> manner and look what happened.
>>
>> It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
>> that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
>> and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
>> to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
>> week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.
>
>Not to pick nits but it was Equifax with the data breach:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYKNhpS744
>
>It was Experion that quickly capitalized on Equifax's f@$kup with its
>"We'll scan the dark web" bullshit ad campaign:
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrydnr_pvQ

The Equifax breach (a) did not result from a Windows bug, and (b) was
on a public-facing web server. The machine that I use to do my job is
not a public-facing web server.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
>he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>
>It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
>way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
>own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
>lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
>probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
>it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
>also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
>upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
>is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
>settle for someone else's choices (in a system).

FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
isn't intended to be a loss-leader.

And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
you have a process that can be parallelized.

On 7/17/2018 6:49 PM, wyzarddoc wrote:
> On Saturday, July 14, 2018 at 3:34:34 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:
>> I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem to
>> "be able to communicate"... :(
>>
>> I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one restore
>> the defaults?
>>
>> --
> Hi All don't dispar !!
> I was one of the first autocad dealers back in 1980/81. The secret to using any new software is to push all of the buttons you can find. Your objective is to get on the same mindset as the project manager for the software. Now you can see how they move from one feature to another.

Wise words to a point, now days it seems that if you close a panel, in a
program that you are unfamiliar with, you may never figure out how to
open it again. But I agree with your thoughts on trying every thing out.

I have received unlimited licenses to a couple of software programs for
free. I used trial ware on both and found so many bugs on the first
days of new releases that the owners rewarded me with the unlimited
licenses. I found bugs that beta testers totally missed.

If there is a bug in software I can find it, as unfortunate as that is.





>
> 1st exercise I have my students do/learn is to get familure with moving around the screen with a mouse
> 2nd click on the measurement tool and drag construction lines move the construction line in the direction you want the line, then type the exact measurement , do this in all 3 dimensions
> 3rd now all you need to do is grab a drawing tool and carefully move the mouse till you see the pointer change then draw from construction line to the next
> Good luck hope this helps
> Doc
>

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:48:49 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:18:54 -0400, J. Clarke
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>> > On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
>>>>> >> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
>>>>> >> point it's too late).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.  More basic than
>>>>> > that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
>>>>> > doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
>>>>> > rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.  Push
>>>>> > it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
>>>>> >> everything.  I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
>>>>> >> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
>>>>> >> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
>>>>> >> fast.  Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
>>>>> >> Good luck!
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I'll say.  I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
>>>>> > or so.  I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
>>>>> > longer works correctly.  The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
>>>>> > selection.  Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
>>>>> > 2017 (specifically KB4013429)  I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
>>>>> > and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
>>>>> > fail miserably before getting off the ground.
>>>>>
>>>>> NO kidding!
>>>>>
>>>>> The solution in 2017
>>>>> > appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
>>>>> > it's automatic update.  I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
>>>>> > yet.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
>>>>> you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
>>>>> be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
>>>>> prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you checked with Sketchup?
>>>>
>>>>I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.
>>>>
>>>>I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.
>>>>
>>>>Both operating systems are fine and well supported.
>>>>
>>>>Bob
>>>
>>>Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?
>>>
>>>I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
>>>they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
>>>vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
>>>personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
>>>Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
>>>open to hacking, virii, or system failures.
>>>
>>>So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
>>>system other than their outrageous pricing.
>>>
>>>I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
>>>reasons.
>>
>>The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
>>updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
>>out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
>>schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
>>the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
>>insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
>>would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
>>week.
>>
>>One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
>>damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
>>will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
>>look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
>>workers.
>
>John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
>update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
>it to work.

Not on my work machine I can't. That's controlled by the IT
department.

And there are times when we don't _have_ "off hours". There are
programs that take a couple of days to run--if an update decides to
install and dog down the machine, that could turn into a couple of
weeks, and if it decides to force a reboot ten minutes before that
process is done then we've lost two days, against a tight deadline.

>Now as to it hogging your traffic on a large update, I don't know. It
>can create communication problems if they both occur at the same time.

It's not just hogging traffic. Every now and then I notice that, for
example, Excel is taking forever to respond. When that happens I
reboot the machine and sure enough it wants to finish updating.

>Under win updates you can schedule your active hours.
>under advanced update options you can shut off automatically
>downloading of updates, with subsequent setup getting ready to reboot
>and do the actual install.

My "active hours" at work are the months of June and September.

>PLUS, under advanced/advanced options you can even setup how you would
>like things to occur, even the downloading of files.

How I would like things to occur is that when I am in a period when I
can afford to have the computer not work, I download and install
updates. That they don't allow unless I block Microsoft in my
firewall.

>Biggest drawback to all of this, is not updating your system in a
>timely fashion, or skipping daily update checks and be caught with
>your pants down when a serious hack is in operation.

When a "serious hack" gets through the network firewall then I'll
worry about it. I have never had a machine that I use hacked. And if
having them behind a cheap Netgear or Linksys firewall provides that
degree of protection then I'm pretty sure that the stuff our IT
department uses provides the same degree of protection.

The biggest things you can do to prevent being hacked are to use a
real firewall and don't run in administrator mode. The constant
untested updates are as likely to introduce a vulnerability as to fix
one, or aren't you aware that Windows updates are distributed to most
users at the pre-beta stage?

>Hope some of this helps you.

What would help me is Microsoft letting me make my own decisions about
what I want to install on my computer.

J. Clarke <[email protected]> writes:
>On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:46:13 GMT, Puckdropper <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>>
>>> Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
>>> That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
>>> head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
>>> matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
>>> not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
>>> Gates should be in jail just for that alone.
>>>
>>
>>Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
>>The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
>>something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
>>
>>It's a great example of scope creep. It's a good idea on its face, they
>>just went overboard storing stuff in it.
>
>Actually, all user-specific or hardware-specific configuration
>information is _supposed_ to go there. What makes it a mess is the
>idiot developers who store user-specific information in the hardware
>part and vice versa.
>
>The idea is that you log into a different machine with a different
>processor and different video and different everything else, your
>configuration, your application settings, etc, all go with you, all in
>one neat little file.

That's the major complaint. "one neat little file".

Give me unix style configuration files (ASCII, one per subsystem)
any day.

On 7/15/2018 10:04 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 7/15/2018 9:21 AM, Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> Unfortunately Sketchup is no longer being updated for the free version
>> and they want you to use an on line version, it sucks.
>>
>> IIRC I have an install file for 17 if you would be interested.
>
> Thanks, Leon.
>
> I ran into that, too...what is installed as near as can tell is
> something they call 2017 Sketchup Make v17.2.nnnn (don't recall the nnn)

That is what you want, that is as good as it gets unless you spend some
money.. ;~( i'm actually using 17.2.555


>
> AFAICT that is running locally; I get a prompt every time open to go to
> an online version that I've refused.

I don't get that other than the normal splash screen that has always
popped up. No extra clicks to get the program up and running.

>
> But, doesn't seem to match up precisely with the doc nor behavior so it
> appears to me this is/was some intermediary release on the way to the
> online version maybe...
>
> I've never had any luck whatsoever w/ SU as far as getting anything
> useful done; I just don't seem to have the knack to use it as it's
> intended.  Drawing a square and cutting a hole or dup'ing it is fine but
> trying to piece stuff together to make a real object just ends up in
> pure frustration...
>
> --

Soooooo.. ;~) Have you learned to make each separate part of your
project into a "component" before drawing other pieces of the project?


Draw a square, push or pull it to make it a box, draw a circle on one
side and push the circle and you are done with that part of the puzzle.
NOW make all of that into a component before starting to draw another
part of the project. It is protected, so to speak, but you can edit it
later and if you do edit it later keep in mind that if you make copies
of the component they too will reflect edits.

If you do not make each "project piece" into a component before moving
on to the other pieces will result in the "part" being unprotected, so
to speak. Making a part into a component prevents it from being
attached to other lines or parts. Until an object is made into a
component it will "stick" to other parts in the drawing.

Think of building in the shop. You do not start gluing pieces of wood
together until they are the correct size. Drawing is the same, complete
the piece, make it into a component and move on to the next part of the
drawing, make into a component, and so on.

Once all pieces are components you can move them around with out them
becoming attached to each other.

IMHO this is the number one thing that you should learn to do to make
drawing go 1000% less stressful.

To make anything into a component simply hi-light all lines that you
want to be a separate piece of the project, and only those lines. The
right click the selection and choose Make Component. IIRC you can also
simply type the letter G as a shortcut. Then a box will open, you can
name the component or simply press enter to accept.

Is that what is making you pull your hair out? :~) It tool me 3 years
with separate installs of different versions before I learned to do
this. Draw like you would build, finish a part and make it a component
before going to the next part of the project.

Jack <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

>
> Well, as I understand it, MAC is UNIX with a graphical interface.
> That's why it works I reckon. For me though, I was always a gear
> head, and liked the raw stuff. Unix and OS/2 (and DOS for that
> matter) were amiable to folks working under the hood. Windows and Mac
> not so much. The WIN Registry is so screwed up, designed by morons,
> Gates should be in jail just for that alone.
>

Microsoft knows the registry sucks, it's a prime example of scope creep.
The guy who came up with it had a power point where it says: Let me say
something about the registry: I'm sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry
sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry

It's a great example of scope creep. It's a good idea on its face, they
just went overboard storing stuff in it.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

Bill wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> On 7/14/2018 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> dpb wrote:
>>>> I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just
>>>> don't seem to "be able to communicate"... :(
>>>
>>> I found a book to be more useful than videos.
>> ...
>>
>> Any one in particular?
>
> I believe this was my first one:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Google-SketchUp-Missing-Chris-Grover/dp/0596521464/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1531710531&sr=8-20&keywords=sketchup#reader_0596521464
>
>

My second book on SketchUp was the one below. IIRC, I liked it's
style better. But is says "for Intermediate and Advanced users".
You can preview it at Amazon. You can probably preview other
books too, to find something to your liking. I found my first
book, the one in my earlier post, a little "dry". There must be
something better.

Google SketchUp Cookbook: Practical Recipes and Essential Techniques

(Don't forget to) Have fun! : )
Bill

dpb wrote:
> I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't
> seem to "be able to communicate"... :(

I found a book to be more useful than videos.



>
> I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one
> restore the defaults?
>
> --

J. Clarke <[email protected]> writes:
>On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:14:50 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On 7/18/2018 10:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
>>> damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
>>> will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
>>> look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
>>> workers.
>>
>>Windows and mission-critical should never be used in the same sentence.
>
>Well, don't apply to work in our company then.

Very happy to never apply to work for your company. APL? yeesh.

On 7/19/2018 6:47 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:18:57 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>>>> On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
>>>>>>> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
>>>>>>> point it's too late).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.  More basic than
>>>>>> that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
>>>>>> doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
>>>>>> rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.  Push
>>>>>> it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
>>>>>>> everything.  I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
>>>>>>> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
>>>>>>> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
>>>>>>> fast.  Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
>>>>>>> Good luck!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll say.  I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
>>>>>> or so.  I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
>>>>>> longer works correctly.  The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
>>>>>> selection.  Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
>>>>>> 2017 (specifically KB4013429)  I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
>>>>>> and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
>>>>>> fail miserably before getting off the ground.
>>>>>
>>>>> NO kidding!
>>>>>
>>>>> The solution in 2017
>>>>>> appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
>>>>>> it's automatic update.  I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
>>>>>> yet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
>>>>> you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
>>>>> be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
>>>>> prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.
>>>>>
>>>>> Have you checked with Sketchup?
>>>>
>>>> I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.
>>>>
>>>> I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.
>>>>
>>>> Both operating systems are fine and well supported.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>
>>> Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?
>>>
>>> I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
>>> they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
>>> vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
>>> personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
>>> Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
>>> open to hacking, virii, or system failures.
>>>
>>> So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
>>> system other than their outrageous pricing.
>>>
>>> I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
>>> reasons.
>>
>> The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
>> updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
>> out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
>> schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
>> the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
>> insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
>> would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
>> week.
>>
>> One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
>> damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
>> will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
>> look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
>> workers.
>
> I'm not saying that this is always the case but...
>
> I worked for a major corporation and our systems store highly personal and
> confidential data. Last week I attended a cybersecurity presentation put
> on by our IT Security department. Many members of that team are former NSA
> employees.
>
> One of the items they mentioned was this:
>
> "Don't you hate it when you get to the office in the morning and find that
> your system has been rebooted and you have to deal with all those auto-save
> files? That happens because we received credible information that a security
> vulnerability has been detected and we can't wait until the next scheduled
> system update. We need to install the patch as quickly as possible and we
> do that during the next off-hours period for your region."
>
> They said that all the major corporations, partners and competitors alike,
> share security information so that everyone is aware of what the others
> have found.
>
> Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
> they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
> manner and look what happened.

Experian, where do I begin... As a precaution I locked up all of the 4
major credit reporting agencies. My wife bought a new sewing machine
and took advantage of a 5 year Zero interest loan. I called and talked
to an Experian rep to temporarily unlock our personal information for 24
hours. While identifying myself they had some incorrect information, of
course, and I had to jump through a few hoops to correct the
information. A week or so later they send me an e-mail indicating that
my account had been relocked and that the information had been corrected.

I hope you can appreciate what was also mentioned in that e-mail.

To verify the information is correct,

Please click on the link below and enter the special password supplied.
When you get to the link, put in your name, address, SS#, and telephone
number.

How stupid are these Esperian guys? Number one security rule is to not
respond to unsolicited email requesting personal information.







>
> It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
> that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
> and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
> to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
> week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.
>

dpb wrote:
> On 7/14/2018 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
>> dpb wrote:
>>> I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just
>>> don't seem to "be able to communicate"... :(
>>
>> I found a book to be more useful than videos.
> ...
>
> Any one in particular?

I believe this was my first one:

https://www.amazon.com/Google-SketchUp-Missing-Chris-Grover/dp/0596521464/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1531710531&sr=8-20&keywords=sketchup#reader_0596521464

But it's 9 years old now (and can be had cheap). There seem to
be many more choices now. Surely it was designed for an older
version of the product. But I don't think that would be a big
deal. In my experience, it was easier to follow directions that
were given in text, rather than to try to pick up instructions by
watching someone in a video-where you may not see them
right-click, for instance.

Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth
remembering (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to
change a model--at that point it's too late).

Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
everything. I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from
scratch everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from
the "component store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it
out, you can build fast. Take a few months off from it, and you
won't be as fast.. ha. Good luck!

Bill


>
> --
>

On 7/17/2018 3:22 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 7/17/2018 3:07 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/17/2018 9:45 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> On 7/17/2018 9:05 AM, dpb wrote:
>>>> On 7/16/2018 11:09 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>
>>>>> (Don't forget to) Have fun! : )
>>>>> Bill
>>>
>>>> Thanks, Bill...I don't think "fun" is in the cards... :)
>>>
>>> That's not good.
>>>
>>>> I still think in terms of the old drafting board and CAD programs that
>>>> mimicked hand drawings that used for so many years and can't seem to
>>>> get
>>>> past the paradigm shift.
>>>
>>> That's a big problem with SU.  You think you know enough about CAD
>>> that you can sort of figure stuff out.  Quicky, frustration builds
>>> and you quit.  This is why lots of us took several try's to get going
>>> with SU. It is NOT intuitive.  You must first, assume it will do
>>> everything you want (it mostly likely will) and then SLOW DOWN, and
>>> learn some very basic things, don't get ahead of yourself.
>>
>> Nailed it!  I have used probably 5~6 different CAD programs including
>> AutoCAD.  Sketchup is totally different than all the rest.
>>
>>>
>>> Once you get past the first few basic aspects, it becomes pretty
>>> easy. Learn how to make a 2x4x8. Make it a component. This is easy,
>>> but requires using the rectangle tool, the push tool, the selection
>>> tool, and the dimension box. You also need to know what perspective
>>> you are looking at (there is iso, front top left right and back)
>>
>> I drew every line in the beginning.  ;!)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Use Youtube videos to learn a step at a time, there are a million of
>>> them. Some just what you need, others not so much.
>>>
>>> For what I'm wanting to do, if it would run on
>>>> the 64-bit OS, I'd just go back to it but I also don't want to spend
>>>> the
>>>> time at the moment to reinstall the virtual system and all...proverbial
>>>> catch-22!  :)  (And I do really, really understand in the end I need to
>>>> get to where can use SU at least with a minimal degree of proficiency)
>>>
>>> Once you get the minimal degree of proficiency, the maximum is just
>>> around the corner. But, it's tough getting started.
>>
>> Agreed, for me, suddenly everything just clicked.  But you HAVE to
>> create components or you will get nowhere.
>
> Well, I just came to report... :)
>
> I believe that _just maybe_ I've finally began to get a little ways off
> the ground...I deleted what I spent most (at least what I could stand
> before getting so frustrated would go do something else) of previous two
> days doing and managed then to recreate the basic outlines of a floor
> plan with entry in about 5 minutes (most of which was trying to remember
> which of the stinkin' icons means which tool...).  Now to see if I can
> insert the immovable interior walls onto that which create the
> boundaries for the proposed renovations...
>
> An almost totally trivial result so far, but it does begin to show me
> how need to try to put stuff together when one _doesn't_ draw every line
> as would w/ the pencil.
>
> Thanks for the pointers...I think this is about the fourth or fifth time
> we've had the conversation, maybe this time some will "stick"! :)
>
>>> Oh, make sure your select tool doesn't take more than a split second
>>> to make a selection.  Mine now take at least 30 seconds so you can't
>>> use SU if this is happening.
>
> That doesn't seem an issue; I am sticking to Win7 as long as possible,
> however...
>
>
> I will ask one more Q? on the toolbars, however -- if one adds an
> additional toolbar, it appears that they all have many of the same tools
> in different toolbars -- but I don't see a way to pare those down to
> eliminate the redundant or to just add a particular tool?  That somehow
> doesn't seem the way it ought to work...I must be missing something
> here, too...
>
> --
>
>
Not too intuitive but here is how that works. Right click on the tool
bar space either on the left or top area. You will get a drop down tool
window listing all visible and non visible tool bars. At the bottom of
that window you will see, "ToolBars".

Click Tool bars. This opens a Toolbar dialog box.

NOW, ONLY WHEN THIS TOOLBAR DIALOG BOX IS OPEN...... YOU CAN

Click and drag any icon to any tool bar. With in the ToolBar dialog box
you can create a custom and empty tool bar. Drag the icons you want to
that tool bar and place the bar where you want.

When you close the ToolBar dialog box you can no longer drag icons.

On 7/15/2018 10:24 PM, Bill wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> On 7/14/2018 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> dpb wrote:
>>>> I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't
>>>> seem to "be able to communicate"... :(
>>>
>>> I found a book to be more useful than videos.
>> ...
>>
>> Any one in particular?
>
> I believe this was my first one:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Google-SketchUp-Missing-Chris-Grover/dp/0596521464/ref=sr_1_20?ie=UTF8&qid=1531710531&sr=8-20&keywords=sketchup#reader_0596521464
>
>
> But it's 9 years old now (and can be had cheap).  There seem to be many
> more choices now. Surely it was designed for an older version of the
> product.  But I don't think that would be a big deal.   In my
> experience, it was easier to follow directions that were given in text,
> rather than to try to pick up instructions by watching someone in a
> video-where you may not see them right-click, for instance.

I like both, video and text. Video is great to understand what Sketchup
is capable of doing. Hey that is interesting, I did not know it could
do that.

Text to explain something that you want to do. Now that I know what I
want Sketchup to do, the book will explain how to do it.

IMHO software is easier to learn if you know what it will do to begin
with vs. having to learn, trial by error, what it will do.

On 7/19/2018 9:30 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 7/19/2018 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/18/2018 9:47 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that he was
>>> tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>>>
>>> It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that way,
>>> so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your own, using
>>> quality components, you can expect it to have a lifetime alot longer
>>> than 3 years..long enough the you'll probably be ready to replace the
>>> system for other reasons before it stops. The purchase price will be a
>>> bit higher.  But you will also be in a much better position to service
>>> it if you want to upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this
>>> alternative option is available. I think that once you do it, you'll
>>> never again settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
>>>
>>> Bill
>>
>> I don't think the hardware systems are so much at fault, for a short
>> life span, so much as all of the bloat ware that comes preinstalled.
>>
>> I have had hardware fail about 3 times since 1986.  a mother board in
>> 1989, an external Seagate HD in 2012, yeah I know, and a video card in
>> 2015.  Every computer except my first and current, IIRC 6~7 of them,
>> were preloaded with bloatware which caused boot, shut down, and
>> performance issues.  The computers that gave problems were Compaq and
>> Dell.  The first computer, an AT&T, had no hard drive, so no bloatware.
>> My current computer, custom built in 2011 with no bloat ware, still runs
>> with no issues.
>
> Ditto. 3 since '82 or '83.  10 meg HD failed after several years. It was
> AFAIK the first PC hard drive made.  Cost $400 to replace it. Years
> later replaced the XT with a 486, and that huge 400 meg HD blew up in a
> month.  Literally came apart, sounded like a garbage disposal.  Many,
> many years later had a video card die, replaced it and it died again in
> a few days, so since the PC was getting old, I just bought another PC
> instead of fooling with it.  Hardware doesn't break much, but they've
> been making sure it gets outdated every few years.
>

Back in 1994, at work we had a 286 for doing simple crap. It had a
Seagate HD and about every week it would not boot, because the HD would
not spin.

I discovered the fix, open the case, remove the HD and bang it against a
counter top, replace close the case and boot. I cannot tell you how
many times I has to do that, and it never lost data.

Spalted Walt <[email protected]> writes:
>Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
>> he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>>
>> It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
>> way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
>> own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
>> lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
>> probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
>> it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
>> also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
>> upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
>> is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
>> settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
>>
>> Bill
>
>+1
>
>Couldn't agree more, Bill!
>The Commodore C64 was the only 'retail' computer I've ever owned.
>Current config:
>2 full tower 'In Win' cases I bought in '96, populated with rock solid
>11yr old Intel CPU's / Gigabyte motherboards. One of which stays on
>pretty much 24/7, and has since 2010.

Probably about time to swap out the bios back-up coin cell.

Jack <[email protected]> writes:

>I remember when I used to boot DOS from a ram drive... Don't ask, the
>memory is vague.. I guess it worked like an SSD drive before they existed.

We had SSDs on mainframes in the late 70's - they've been around
for a long time (but prior to flash, were rather expensive - more
long the lines of Violin Memories 1010 initial DRAM-based solid state
disks circa 2007).

See StorageTek STC4305 here: <http://www.storagesearch.com/chartingtheriseofssds.html>

On 7/19/2018 11:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:54:08 -0400, J. Clarke
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
>>> he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>>>
>>> It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
>>> way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
>>> own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
>>> lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
>>> probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
>>> it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
>>> also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
>>> upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
>>> is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
>>> settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
>>
>> FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
>> useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
>> machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
>> isn't intended to be a loss-leader.
>>
>> And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
>> inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
>> laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
>> difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
>> slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
>> builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
>> you have a process that can be parallelized.
>
> You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
> Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
> notable with graphics.
>


AND way back when, when processing twice as fast meant something
meaningful, 5 seconds to process vs 10 seconds, that was a very
noticeable improvement.

Today cutting a half second processing time to one quarter second is not
noticeable.

I remember boot time taking up to 7 minutes on one of my od computers.
Blame HP printer software for half of that time. Today my 7 year old
custom built computer boots off if a SSD and takes 15-30 seconds.

J. Clarke <[email protected]> writes:
>On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:42:06 +0000, Spalted Walt
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
>>> they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
>>> manner and look what happened.
>>>
>>> It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches
>>> that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability
>>> and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related
>>> to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a
>>> week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.
>>
>>Not to pick nits but it was Equifax with the data breach:
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=srYKNhpS744
>>
>>It was Experion that quickly capitalized on Equifax's f@$kup with its
>>"We'll scan the dark web" bullshit ad campaign:
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjrydnr_pvQ
>
>The Equifax breach (a) did not result from a Windows bug, and (b) was
>on a public-facing web server.

which was running window server and IIS, iirc.

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:30:15 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 7/18/2018 10:47 PM, Bill wrote:
>> I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that he was
>> tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>>
>> It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that way, so
>> that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your own, using
>> quality components, you can expect it to have a lifetime alot longer
>> than 3 years..long enough the you'll probably be ready to replace the
>> system for other reasons before it stops. The purchase price will be a
>> bit higher. But you will also be in a much better position to service
>> it if you want to upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this
>> alternative option is available. I think that once you do it, you'll
>> never again settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
>
>That was Bob, not me, BUT, historically, Hardware didn't last more than
>3 years because it could no longer handle the software more than
>hardware failure, it was obsolescence. I still have my 486 sitting
>beside me, and it still works, if you want it too. When purchased, it
>was good as it gets. Would bet my PCXT would still work if I didn't toss
>it. Also still have my last computer running, networked to this one.
>Runs fine, but too slow, use mainly for a network backup, in addition to
>my other 2 backups. I think some of this is slowing down a bit though,
>for example, my hard drives have not come close to filling up for years.
> When I started, I thought my 10 MEG hard drive was huge, (it wasn't)
>My terabyte drives are still more than adequate for my use.

My first HD was 5 Meg made by a company in Arizona, it cost me 500.
Thought I could record the whole world on it at the time. :)

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 19:40:34 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thursday, July 19, 2018 at 5:54:06 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 7/19/2018 9:30 AM, Jack wrote:
>> > On 7/19/2018 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:
>> >> On 7/18/2018 9:47 PM, Bill wrote:
>> >>> I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that he was
>> >>> tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>> >>>
>> >>> It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that way,
>> >>> so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your own, using
>> >>> quality components, you can expect it to have a lifetime alot longer
>> >>> than 3 years..long enough the you'll probably be ready to replace the
>> >>> system for other reasons before it stops. The purchase price will be a
>> >>> bit higher.  But you will also be in a much better position to service
>> >>> it if you want to upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this
>> >>> alternative option is available. I think that once you do it, you'll
>> >>> never again settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
>> >>>
>> >>> Bill
>> >>
>> >> I don't think the hardware systems are so much at fault, for a short
>> >> life span, so much as all of the bloat ware that comes preinstalled.
>> >>
>> >> I have had hardware fail about 3 times since 1986.  a mother board in
>> >> 1989, an external Seagate HD in 2012, yeah I know, and a video card in
>> >> 2015.  Every computer except my first and current, IIRC 6~7 of them,
>> >> were preloaded with bloatware which caused boot, shut down, and
>> >> performance issues.  The computers that gave problems were Compaq and
>> >> Dell.  The first computer, an AT&T, had no hard drive, so no bloatware.
>> >> My current computer, custom built in 2011 with no bloat ware, still runs
>> >> with no issues.
>> >
>> > Ditto. 3 since '82 or '83.  10 meg HD failed after several years. It was
>> > AFAIK the first PC hard drive made.  Cost $400 to replace it. Years
>> > later replaced the XT with a 486, and that huge 400 meg HD blew up in a
>> > month.  Literally came apart, sounded like a garbage disposal.  Many,
>> > many years later had a video card die, replaced it and it died again in
>> > a few days, so since the PC was getting old, I just bought another PC
>> > instead of fooling with it.  Hardware doesn't break much, but they've
>> > been making sure it gets outdated every few years.
>> >
>>
>> Back in 1994, at work we had a 286 for doing simple crap. It had a
>> Seagate HD and about every week it would not boot, because the HD would
>> not spin.
>>
>> I discovered the fix, open the case, remove the HD and bang it against a
>> counter top, replace close the case and boot. I cannot tell you how
>> many times I has to do that, and it never lost data.
>
>Back in that late 80's I used to repair disk drives of this style:
>
>https://tinyurl.com/HP-Vintage-Disks
>
>Full link:
>
>https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/JxIAAOSw53NY-M7l/$/VINTAGE-HP-1000-F-Series-Complete-Mainframe-MiniComputer-System-_57.jpg
>
>Typically, the removable disk pack was a data disk and there was an internal
>platter that held the custom OS and programs. These internal platters were
>*supposed* to be backed up to mag tape on a regular basis.
>
>https://tinyurl.com/HP-OS-Platter
>
>Full link:
>
>https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cL8WbfYG5u4/WfjQD-qLQ0I/AAAAAAAAFYo/lNpFuOrDsYgkL9mmGDsmLEmiEsp3o3OwACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3326.jpg
>
>I got a call from one our Research scientists telling me that his system
>wouldn't boot up. I narrowed the problem down to one of the heads for the OS
>platter. One of the tiny wires that flexed every time the head moved had
>broken off of the head. I told him that I would change the head, reformat
>the platter and then restore the OS from his tape. A simple fix, something
>I'd done many, many times.
>
>"Umm...well...it's been a while since we backed it up and we've made a lot
>of changes. Can't you just change the head and boot it up?"
>
>There's no way the new head will read the existing disk. That's why it has
>to be reformatted. They work together as a pair. I offered him one possible
>solution: "I can try to solder that tiny wire back onto the head. I'm pretty
>sure that I can solder it, but I can't guarantee that I won't move the head.
>Worst case is that I'll contaminate the inside of the drive and cause it to
>crash once we spin it up. In order to solder it, I need to wedge something
>in the carriage to keep the heads apart and pull it out over the platter.
>If the head moves, it won't read the platter. If it contacts the platter
>or I get any debris in there, it'll crash." The guy said to "Go for it, we
>really need what's on that disk."
>
>The reason I remember this so well 30+ years later is because it actually
>worked! Surprised the crap out of me. After the system booted up, we backed
>it up immediately (that was 3 hours of nerve racking waiting). When it
>was done, I put in a new head (and platter, just to be safe). We restored the
>system onto the new platter and he was good to go.
>
>Apparently what I had "saved" was so important that someone in the Research
>department called someone in the IT department and I ended up with a cash
>award.

COOL!

An actual cash award to boot!

All I've gotten was thank you's. But then again when 15 years later an
you haven't seen them in like forever, they bring it up again with
another thank you, then that really means something to me.

you just never know.

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:56:35 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 7/19/2018 11:14 PM, OFWW wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:54:08 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
>>>> he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
>>>> way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
>>>> own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
>>>> lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
>>>> probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
>>>> it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
>>>> also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
>>>> upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
>>>> is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
>>>> settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
>>>
>>> FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
>>> useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
>>> machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
>>> isn't intended to be a loss-leader.
>>>
>>> And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
>>> inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
>>> laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
>>> difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
>>> slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
>>> builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
>>> you have a process that can be parallelized.
>>
>> You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
>> Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
>> notable with graphics.
>>
>
>
>AND way back when, when processing twice as fast meant something
>meaningful, 5 seconds to process vs 10 seconds, that was a very
>noticeable improvement.
>
>Today cutting a half second processing time to one quarter second is not
>noticeable.
>
>I remember boot time taking up to 7 minutes on one of my od computers.
>Blame HP printer software for half of that time. Today my 7 year old
>custom built computer boots off if a SSD and takes 15-30 seconds.

When processing movies and converting them as well, the newest systems
cuts off minutes, some 30 minutes of better. I can remember a time
where I would basically have to dedicate a whole computer for a day to
process videos.

Even when compiling programs I hate to wait, although I hardly ever do
that anymore. :)

Now I complain about paint drying, or the time it takes for shellac to
really truly cure before the next coat.

dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

> I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem to
> "be able to communicate"... :(
>
> I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one restore
> the defaults?

To reset the default toolbar to its original tool set:
select Toolbar Options > Add or Remove Buttons > Main Toolbar > Reset Toolbar
-or-
On the Customize dialog box’s Toolbars tab, select Main Toolbar and click the Reset button.

On Wednesday, July 18, 2018 at 10:18:57 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>=20
> >On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> >>> On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
> >>> > On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:
> >>> >=20
> >>> >> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth rememb=
ering
> >>> >> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at=
that
> >>> >> point it's too late).
> >>> >=20
> >>> > Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.=C2=A0 More bas=
ic than=20
> >>> > that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around=
=20
> >>> > doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a=20
> >>> > rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.=
=C2=A0 Push=20
> >>> > it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.
> >>> >=20
> >>> >> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
> >>> >> everything.=C2=A0 I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house f=
rom scratch
> >>> >> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "comp=
onent
> >>> >> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can buil=
d
> >>> >> fast.=C2=A0 Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fas=
t.. ha.
> >>> >> Good luck!
> >>> >=20
> >>> > I'll say.=C2=A0 I was really proficient at it but haven't used it i=
n a year=20
> >>> > or so.=C2=A0 I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn ap=
p no=20
> >>> > longer works correctly.=C2=A0 The select tool takes 30 seconds to m=
ake a=20
> >>> > selection.=C2=A0 Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 up=
date in=20
> >>> > 2017 (specifically KB4013429)=C2=A0 I'm current at ver. 1803 build =
17134.165=20
> >>> > and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.
> >>> >=20
> >>> > If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they woul=
d=20
> >>> > fail miserably before getting off the ground.=20
> >>>=20
> >>> NO kidding!
> >>>=20
> >>> The solution in 2017
> >>> > appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WI=
N did=20
> >>> > it's automatic update.=C2=A0 I haven't figured out the fix, if ther=
e is one,=20
> >>> > yet.
> >>> >=20
> >>> >=20
> >>> I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission fro=
m=20
> >>> you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going=
to=20
> >>> be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how =
I=20
> >>> prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.
> >>>=20
> >>> Have you checked with Sketchup?
> >>
> >>I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some inf=
ormation. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue un=
der windows 10. That's great.
> >>
> >>I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macb=
ook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make=
version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never =
had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it o=
n windows.
> >>
> >>Both operating systems are fine and well supported.
> >>
> >>Bob
> >
> >Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?
> >
> >I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
> >they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
> >vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
> >personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
> >Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
> >open to hacking, virii, or system failures.
> >
> >So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
> >system other than their outrageous pricing.
> >
> >I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
> >reasons.
>=20
> The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
> updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
> out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
> schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
> the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
> insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
> would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
> week.
>=20
> One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
> damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
> will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
> look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
> workers.

I'm not saying that this is always the case but...

I worked for a major corporation and our systems store highly personal and
confidential data. Last week I attended a cybersecurity presentation put
on by our IT Security department. Many members of that team are former NSA
employees.

One of the items they mentioned was this:

"Don't you hate it when you get to the office in the morning and find that
your system has been rebooted and you have to deal with all those auto-save
files? That happens because we received credible information that a securit=
y=20
vulnerability has been detected and we can't wait until the next scheduled=
=20
system update. We need to install the patch as quickly as possible and we=
=20
do that during the next off-hours period for your region."

They said that all the major corporations, partners and competitors alike,
share security information so that everyone is aware of what the others
have found.=20

Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timel=
y=20
manner and look what happened.

It's possible that some of the updates you are getting are security patches=
=20
that can't wait "six months" to be installed. MS discovers a vulnerability=
=20
and needs to patch it ASAP. Now, they may indeed include items not related=
=20
to the security patch in that update, but the off-cycle, "multiple times a=
=20
week" updates contain urgent security patches at their core.

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 09:04:15 -0400, J. Clarke
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:14:43 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 22:54:08 -0400, J. Clarke
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:47:55 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
>>>>he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>>>>
>>>>It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
>>>>way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
>>>>own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
>>>>lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
>>>>probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
>>>>it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
>>>>also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
>>>>upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
>>>>is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
>>>>settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
>>>
>>>FWIW, my 200 Mhz Pentium Thinkpad still works fine. It's not really
>>>useful today but it boots and runs. One doesn't have to build a
>>>machine to get quality, one does though have to get a machine that
>>>isn't intended to be a loss-leader.
>>>
>>>And it takes a long time for a system to become obsolete due to
>>>inadequate performance today. At work we replaced our 3 year old
>>>laptops with new ones with higher spec and there is no noticeable
>>>difference in performance. Performance improvements have been coming
>>>slowly for a long time--having more gates at the same clockspeed
>>>builds paper performance but you don't see it in the real world unless
>>>you have a process that can be parallelized.
>>
>>You can really tell the difference when processing, converting, etc.
>>Graphics, or responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, but most
>>notable with graphics.
>
>Our old machines had Intel graphics, our new machines have Intel
>graphics. If graphics mattered to us we would have nvidia.
>

Intel does have the option of nice graphics suitable for gamers and
video processing, although my favorite has always been Nvidia.

>As for responses from a db and on large spreadsheets, there are times
>when we have all cores of the machine running 100% for hours at a
>time. We work these machines hard. The only significant performance
>gain in our new machines is that they have two more cores than the old
>machines--that gets us a performance boost but to get the two more
>cores we had to get management approval for the enhanced
>configuration--if we had just gone with the ordinary refresh we would
>have had the same number of cores as previously.

Are you running your db's and spreadsheets locally?

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 09:12:07 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 7/21/2018 7:56 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:48:49 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>...
>
>>> John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
>>> update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
>>> it to work.
>>
>> Not on my work machine I can't. That's controlled by the IT
>> department.
>>
>> And there are times when we don't _have_ "off hours". There are
>> programs that take a couple of days to run--if an update decides to
>> install and dog down the machine, that could turn into a couple of
>> weeks, and if it decides to force a reboot ten minutes before that
>> process is done then we've lost two days, against a tight deadline.
>...
>
>That's a management problem in IT not being in synch with production --
>a common complaint and one I saw all the time in consulting. Sometimes
>one could educate upper management and get something done; other times
>"not so much", unfortunately. IT departments are extremely good at
>using the fear factor to be able to browbeat technically unsophisticated
>managers.
>
>> What would help me is Microsoft letting me make my own decisions about
>> what I want to install on my computer.
>
>There's the rub, too -- MS doesn't like the idea that anything is
>"yours", whether it's the OS, Office applications, or even the computer
>itself. From their viewpoint it's all "theirs".
>
>Unfortunately, the mindset is growing amongst all the other vendors as
>well as they see the only way to maintain revenue stream is by forcible
>means--once applications are "good enough" there's no incentive to
>upgrade so the only recourse is obsolescence or subscription.

Subscription, there's the rub. Nickel and dime you to death, mixed
with promises.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> >
> > Remember the Experian hacking incident? They knew about the vulnerability,
> > they had access to the fix. They chose not to patch their system in a timely
> > manner and look what happened.
>
> Experian, where do I begin... As a precaution I locked up all of the 4
> major credit reporting agencies.

Ok, I know about Equifax, Experian, and TransUnion, but who is the
fourth?

On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 08:56:50 -0400, J. Clarke
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 20:48:49 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:18:54 -0400, J. Clarke
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
>>>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>>>> > On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
>>>>>> >> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
>>>>>> >> point it's too late).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.  More basic than
>>>>>> > that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
>>>>>> > doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
>>>>>> > rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.  Push
>>>>>> > it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
>>>>>> >> everything.  I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
>>>>>> >> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
>>>>>> >> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
>>>>>> >> fast.  Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
>>>>>> >> Good luck!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I'll say.  I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
>>>>>> > or so.  I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
>>>>>> > longer works correctly.  The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
>>>>>> > selection.  Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
>>>>>> > 2017 (specifically KB4013429)  I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
>>>>>> > and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
>>>>>> > fail miserably before getting off the ground.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NO kidding!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The solution in 2017
>>>>>> > appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
>>>>>> > it's automatic update.  I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
>>>>>> > yet.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
>>>>>> you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
>>>>>> be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
>>>>>> prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you checked with Sketchup?
>>>>>
>>>>>I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.
>>>>>
>>>>>I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.
>>>>>
>>>>>Both operating systems are fine and well supported.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bob
>>>>
>>>>Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?
>>>>
>>>>I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
>>>>they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
>>>>vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
>>>>personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
>>>>Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
>>>>open to hacking, virii, or system failures.
>>>>
>>>>So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
>>>>system other than their outrageous pricing.
>>>>
>>>>I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
>>>>reasons.
>>>
>>>The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
>>>updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
>>>out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
>>>schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
>>>the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
>>>insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
>>>would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
>>>week.
>>>
>>>One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
>>>damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
>>>will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
>>>look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
>>>workers.
>>
>>John, if you are using Win 10 then you can schedule your updates to
>>update in off hours. Problem is your computer must be on in order for
>>it to work.
>
>Not on my work machine I can't. That's controlled by the IT
>department.
>

Oh, sorry, thought you were speaking of your home machine.

>And there are times when we don't _have_ "off hours". There are
>programs that take a couple of days to run--if an update decides to
>install and dog down the machine, that could turn into a couple of
>weeks, and if it decides to force a reboot ten minutes before that
>process is done then we've lost two days, against a tight deadline.
>

That certainly constitutes an "OUCH"! Without knowing your work
environment and IT policies, and server availability I can't say
anything more, other than wonder why they don't at least off load that
work to cloud severs with very low costs and no downtime locally.

>>Now as to it hogging your traffic on a large update, I don't know. It
>>can create communication problems if they both occur at the same time.
>
>It's not just hogging traffic. Every now and then I notice that, for
>example, Excel is taking forever to respond. When that happens I
>reboot the machine and sure enough it wants to finish updating.
>

WHOA! I'd be seriously complaining at the next conference meeting.

>>Under win updates you can schedule your active hours.
>>under advanced update options you can shut off automatically
>>downloading of updates, with subsequent setup getting ready to reboot
>>and do the actual install.
>
>My "active hours" at work are the months of June and September.
>
>>PLUS, under advanced/advanced options you can even setup how you would
>>like things to occur, even the downloading of files.
>
>How I would like things to occur is that when I am in a period when I
>can afford to have the computer not work, I download and install
>updates. That they don't allow unless I block Microsoft in my
>firewall.
>
>>Biggest drawback to all of this, is not updating your system in a
>>timely fashion, or skipping daily update checks and be caught with
>>your pants down when a serious hack is in operation.
>
>When a "serious hack" gets through the network firewall then I'll
>worry about it. I have never had a machine that I use hacked. And if
>having them behind a cheap Netgear or Linksys firewall provides that
>degree of protection then I'm pretty sure that the stuff our IT
>department uses provides the same degree of protection.
>

Given your description of how they do other things, I wouldn't be
counting on it.

>The biggest things you can do to prevent being hacked are to use a
>real firewall and don't run in administrator mode. The constant
>untested updates are as likely to introduce a vulnerability as to fix
>one, or aren't you aware that Windows updates are distributed to most
>users at the pre-beta stage?
>
>>Hope some of this helps you.
>
>What would help me is Microsoft letting me make my own decisions about
>what I want to install on my computer.

Yet you said that was under the control of your IT people. :(

On Thursday, July 19, 2018 at 5:54:06 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 7/19/2018 9:30 AM, Jack wrote:
> > On 7/19/2018 9:12 AM, Leon wrote:
> >> On 7/18/2018 9:47 PM, Bill wrote:
> >>> I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that he wa=
s
> >>> tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
> >>>
> >>> It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that way,
> >>> so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your own, usin=
g
> >>> quality components, you can expect it to have a lifetime alot longer
> >>> than 3 years..long enough the you'll probably be ready to replace the
> >>> system for other reasons before it stops. The purchase price will be =
a
> >>> bit higher.=C2=A0 But you will also be in a much better position to s=
ervice
> >>> it if you want to upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this
> >>> alternative option is available. I think that once you do it, you'll
> >>> never again settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
> >>>
> >>> Bill
> >>
> >> I don't think the hardware systems are so much at fault, for a short
> >> life span, so much as all of the bloat ware that comes preinstalled.
> >>
> >> I have had hardware fail about 3 times since 1986.=C2=A0 a mother boar=
d in
> >> 1989, an external Seagate HD in 2012, yeah I know, and a video card in
> >> 2015.=C2=A0 Every computer except my first and current, IIRC 6~7 of th=
em,
> >> were preloaded with bloatware which caused boot, shut down, and
> >> performance issues.=C2=A0 The computers that gave problems were Compaq=
and
> >> Dell.=C2=A0 The first computer, an AT&T, had no hard drive, so no bloa=
tware.
> >> My current computer, custom built in 2011 with no bloat ware, still ru=
ns
> >> with no issues.
> >=20
> > Ditto. 3 since '82 or '83.=C2=A0 10 meg HD failed after several years. =
It was=20
> > AFAIK the first PC hard drive made.=C2=A0 Cost $400 to replace it. Year=
s=20
> > later replaced the XT with a 486, and that huge 400 meg HD blew up in a=
=20
> > month.=C2=A0 Literally came apart, sounded like a garbage disposal.=C2=
=A0 Many,=20
> > many years later had a video card die, replaced it and it died again in=
=20
> > a few days, so since the PC was getting old, I just bought another PC=
=20
> > instead of fooling with it.=C2=A0 Hardware doesn't break much, but they=
've=20
> > been making sure it gets outdated every few years.
> >=20
>=20
> Back in 1994, at work we had a 286 for doing simple crap. It had a=20
> Seagate HD and about every week it would not boot, because the HD would=
=20
> not spin.
>=20
> I discovered the fix, open the case, remove the HD and bang it against a=
=20
> counter top, replace close the case and boot. I cannot tell you how=20
> many times I has to do that, and it never lost data.

Back in that late 80's I used to repair disk drives of this style:

https://tinyurl.com/HP-Vintage-Disks

Full link:

https://www.picclickimg.com/00/s/MTA2NlgxNjAw/z/JxIAAOSw53NY-M7l/$/VINTAGE-=
HP-1000-F-Series-Complete-Mainframe-MiniComputer-System-_57.jpg

Typically, the removable disk pack was a data disk and there was an interna=
l=20
platter that held the custom OS and programs. These internal platters were=
=20
*supposed* to be backed up to mag tape on a regular basis.

https://tinyurl.com/HP-OS-Platter

Full link:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cL8WbfYG5u4/WfjQD-qLQ0I/AAAAAAAAFYo/lNpFuOrDsYgk=
L9mmGDsmLEmiEsp3o3OwACLcBGAs/s1600/IMG_3326.jpg

I got a call from one our Research scientists telling me that his system=20
wouldn't boot up. I narrowed the problem down to one of the heads for the O=
S
platter. One of the tiny wires that flexed every time the head moved had
broken off of the head. I told him that I would change the head, reformat
the platter and then restore the OS from his tape. A simple fix, something
I'd done many, many times.

"Umm...well...it's been a while since we backed it up and we've made a lot=
=20
of changes. Can't you just change the head and boot it up?"

There's no way the new head will read the existing disk. That's why it has
to be reformatted. They work together as a pair. I offered him one possible
solution: "I can try to solder that tiny wire back onto the head. I'm prett=
y
sure that I can solder it, but I can't guarantee that I won't move the head=
.=20
Worst case is that I'll contaminate the inside of the drive and cause it to=
=20
crash once we spin it up. In order to solder it, I need to wedge something
in the carriage to keep the heads apart and pull it out over the platter.=
=20
If the head moves, it won't read the platter. If it contacts the platter=20
or I get any debris in there, it'll crash." The guy said to "Go for it, we=
=20
really need what's on that disk."

The reason I remember this so well 30+ years later is because it actually
worked! Surprised the crap out of me. After the system booted up, we backed=
=20
it up immediately (that was 3 hours of nerve racking waiting). When it=20
was done, I put in a new head (and platter, just to be safe). We restored t=
he=20
system onto the new platter and he was good to go.

Apparently what I had "saved" was so important that someone in the Research
department called someone in the IT department and I ended up with a cash
award.

On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
> > On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:
> >=20
> >> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth rememberin=
g
> >> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at tha=
t
> >> point it's too late).
> >=20
> > Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.=C2=A0 More basic t=
han=20
> > that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around=20
> > doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a=20
> > rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.=C2=
=A0 Push=20
> > it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.
> >=20
> >> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
> >> everything.=C2=A0 I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from =
scratch
> >> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "componen=
t
> >> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
> >> fast.=C2=A0 Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. =
ha.
> >> Good luck!
> >=20
> > I'll say.=C2=A0 I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a =
year=20
> > or so.=C2=A0 I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no=
=20
> > longer works correctly.=C2=A0 The select tool takes 30 seconds to make =
a=20
> > selection.=C2=A0 Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update=
in=20
> > 2017 (specifically KB4013429)=C2=A0 I'm current at ver. 1803 build 1713=
4.165=20
> > and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.
> >=20
> > If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would=20
> > fail miserably before getting off the ground.=20
>=20
> NO kidding!
>=20
> The solution in 2017
> > appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN di=
d=20
> > it's automatic update.=C2=A0 I haven't figured out the fix, if there is=
one,=20
> > yet.
> >=20
> >=20
> I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from=20
> you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to=
=20
> be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I=20
> prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.
>=20
> Have you checked with Sketchup?

I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some informa=
tion. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under =
windows 10. That's great.

I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook.=
I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make ver=
sion available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had =
any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on wi=
ndows.

Both operating systems are fine and well supported.

Bob

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:43:04 GMT, [email protected] (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:

>J. Clarke <[email protected]> writes:
>>On Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:14:50 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On 7/18/2018 10:18 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
>>>> damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
>>>> will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
>>>> look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
>>>> workers.
>>>
>>>Windows and mission-critical should never be used in the same sentence.
>>
>>Well, don't apply to work in our company then.
>
>Very happy to never apply to work for your company. APL? yeesh.

APL is a great STEM language but it should never be used to build
applications.

On 7/14/2018 4:34 PM, dpb wrote:
> I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem to
> "be able to communicate"... :(
>
> I tried again and somehow munged up the toolbar -- how does one restore
> the defaults?
>
> --

First off, what version are you using?

I'm using, 17.x. In this version if you accidentally loose some tool
bars you simply right click on the area where the title bar is normally
situated and you will see a drop down menu of tool bars available, used
and not used. If go to the bottom of that drop down menu you will see
the Toolbars, click that and you can edit, restore, or create more tool
bars.

Unfortunately Sketchup is no longer being updated for the free version
and they want you to use an on line version, it sucks.

IIRC I have an install file for 17 if you would be interested.

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:23:39 -0700, OFWW <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:21:00 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, July 16, 2018 at 1:59:13 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
>>> On 7/16/2018 10:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> > On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
>>> >> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
>>> >> point it's too late).
>>> >
>>> > Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup.  More basic than
>>> > that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
>>> > doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
>>> > rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel.  Push
>>> > it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.
>>> >
>>> >> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
>>> >> everything.  I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
>>> >> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
>>> >> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
>>> >> fast.  Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
>>> >> Good luck!
>>> >
>>> > I'll say.  I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
>>> > or so.  I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
>>> > longer works correctly.  The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
>>> > selection.  Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
>>> > 2017 (specifically KB4013429)  I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
>>> > and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.
>>> >
>>> > If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
>>> > fail miserably before getting off the ground.
>>>
>>> NO kidding!
>>>
>>> The solution in 2017
>>> > appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
>>> > it's automatic update.  I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
>>> > yet.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> I know that you can and or could have Windows wait for permission from
>>> you to perform updates, you could look at the updates that were going to
>>> be applied and uncheck the ones that would be a problem, that is how I
>>> prevented Windows from updating my Win 7 to Win 10.
>>>
>>> Have you checked with Sketchup?
>>
>>I do not want to start an operating system war, just throw out some information. I see a post by Jack that there is a fix for the select issue under windows 10. That's great.
>>
>>I own five personal computers - 2 windows 10, 2 Macbook pro, and 1 Macbook. I do all of my sketchup work on the Macs using the last sketchup make version available for the mac (17.3.116). Knock on wood ... I have never had any issues with any version of sketchup on the Macs. I do not use it on windows.
>>
>>Both operating systems are fine and well supported.
>>
>>Bob
>
>Bob, do you use the Apple equivalent of MS Office products?
>
>I've always been a hardcore supporter of Windows from NT up, until
>they started with this subscription pricing for their products. Other
>vendors are doing the same thing, especially the app's people. I
>personally hate it even though I have seen some good things out of it.
>Makes it impossible to stay at a certain software level lest you be
>open to hacking, virii, or system failures.
>
>So if you could, what are your general thoughts on the Apple/Unix
>system other than their outrageous pricing.
>
>I personally am thinking about an Apple or Linux system for various
>reasons.

The thing that's going to drive me away from Microsoft is the damned
updates. They don't do beta testing anymore so half the ones that go
out are broken in some way, and they don't give any good way to
schedule them--I'm in the middle of doing something time critical and
the damned computer slows to a crawl as an update installs and then
insists on being rebooted. If this happened once every six months it
would be tolerable, but sometimes it happens several times in the same
week.

One of these days we're going to miss a deadline because of one of the
damned updates and there's going to be Hell to pay--somebody in IT
will get fired for not getting the updates under control and a serious
look will be taken at alternatives to Windows for mission-critical
workers.

On 7/17/2018 9:45 AM, Jack wrote:
> On 7/17/2018 9:05 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 7/16/2018 11:09 PM, Bill wrote:
>
>>> (Don't forget to) Have fun! : )
>>> Bill
>
>> Thanks, Bill...I don't think "fun" is in the cards... :)
>
> That's not good.
>
>> I still think in terms of the old drafting board and CAD programs that
>> mimicked hand drawings that used for so many years and can't seem to get
>> past the paradigm shift.
>
> That's a big problem with SU.  You think you know enough about CAD that
> you can sort of figure stuff out.  Quicky, frustration builds and you
> quit.  This is why lots of us took several try's to get going with SU.
> It is NOT intuitive.  You must first, assume it will do everything you
> want (it mostly likely will) and then SLOW DOWN, and learn some very
> basic things, don't get ahead of yourself.

Nailed it! I have used probably 5~6 different CAD programs including
AutoCAD. Sketchup is totally different than all the rest.

>
> Once you get past the first few basic aspects, it becomes pretty easy.
> Learn how to make a 2x4x8. Make it a component. This is easy, but
> requires using the rectangle tool, the push tool, the selection tool,
> and the dimension box. You also need to know what perspective you are
> looking at (there is iso, front top left right and back)

I drew every line in the beginning. ;!)


>
> Use Youtube videos to learn a step at a time, there are a million of
> them. Some just what you need, others not so much.
>
> For what I'm wanting to do, if it would run on
>> the 64-bit OS, I'd just go back to it but I also don't want to spend the
>> time at the moment to reinstall the virtual system and all...proverbial
>> catch-22!  :)  (And I do really, really understand in the end I need to
>> get to where can use SU at least with a minimal degree of proficiency)
>
> Once you get the minimal degree of proficiency, the maximum is just
> around the corner. But, it's tough getting started.

Agreed, for me, suddenly everything just clicked. But you HAVE to
create components or you will get nowhere.


>
> Oh, make sure your select tool doesn't take more than a split second to
> make a selection.  Mine now take at least 30 seconds so you can't use SU
> if this is happening.
>

Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

> I accidentally deleted the post, but someone (Jack?) wrote that
> he was tired of hardware systems lasting only 3 years.
>
> It seems that systems sold at retail (Best Buy?) are built that
> way, so that you come back to replace them. If you assemble your
> own, using quality components, you can expect it to have a
> lifetime alot longer than 3 years..long enough the you'll
> probably be ready to replace the system for other reasons before
> it stops. The purchase price will be a bit higher. But you will
> also be in a much better position to service it if you want to
> upgrade it. I just wanted to mention that this alternative option
> is available. I think that once you do it, you'll never again
> settle for someone else's choices (in a system).
>
> Bill

+1

Couldn't agree more, Bill!
The Commodore C64 was the only 'retail' computer I've ever owned.
Current config:
2 full tower 'In Win' cases I bought in '96, populated with rock solid
11yr old Intel CPU's / Gigabyte motherboards. One of which stays on
pretty much 24/7, and has since 2010.

During those 11 years, I've only _had_ to replace (due to failure) 1
stick of ram, a video card, and a Samsung hard drive (bought on a
whim). I've also replaced 3 case fans, power supply, and the stock Intel
heatsink/fan due to noisy, squeaking fans.

Once per year (usually Spring) I remove the covers and blow the dust
out, wheather they need it or not. ;-)

On 7/14/2018 10:14 PM, Bill wrote:
> dpb wrote:
>> I've yet to get anywhere useful w/ Sketchup; it and I just don't seem
>> to "be able to communicate"... :(
>
> I found a book to be more useful than videos.
...

Any one in particular?

--

On 7/15/2018 9:21 AM, Leon wrote:
...

> Unfortunately Sketchup is no longer being updated for the free version
> and they want you to use an on line version, it sucks.
>
> IIRC I have an install file for 17 if you would be interested.

Thanks, Leon.

I ran into that, too...what is installed as near as can tell is
something they call 2017 Sketchup Make v17.2.nnnn (don't recall the nnn)

AFAICT that is running locally; I get a prompt every time open to go to
an online version that I've refused.

But, doesn't seem to match up precisely with the doc nor behavior so it
appears to me this is/was some intermediary release on the way to the
online version maybe...

I've never had any luck whatsoever w/ SU as far as getting anything
useful done; I just don't seem to have the knack to use it as it's
intended. Drawing a square and cutting a hole or dup'ing it is fine but
trying to piece stuff together to make a real object just ends up in
pure frustration...

--

On 7/15/2018 11:24 PM, Bill wrote:

> Remembering Leon's suggestion to "Make Components" is worth remembering
> (or you'll be forever frustrated when trying to change a model--at that
> point it's too late).

Yes, that's one of many "Keys" to learning sketchup. More basic than
that however is nothing is very intuitive and trying to skip around
doesn't work, you must start small and take small steps. Draw a
rectangle with the rectangle tool, size it in the dimension panel. Push
it into a box, size it, make it a component, etc, etc.

> Start small, be patient, and you'll be able to learn how to do
> everything. I used to practice trying to build a 3-d house from scratch
> everyday, Then I'd add a door, a window, furniture (from the "component
> store), bushes, sidewalk, etc. One you figure it out, you can build
> fast. Take a few months off from it, and you won't be as fast.. ha.
> Good luck!

I'll say. I was really proficient at it but haven't used it in a year
or so. I recently tried using it and while rusty, the damn app no
longer works correctly. The select tool takes 30 seconds to make a
selection. Turns out this problem was common with a WIN 10 update in
2017 (specifically KB4013429) I'm current at ver. 1803 build 17134.165
and apparently the problem still exists, at least for me.

If one would try to learn SU with this problem occurring, they would
fail miserably before getting off the ground. The solution in 2017
appeared to be removing the win update, but it would return when WIN did
it's automatic update. I haven't figured out the fix, if there is one,
yet.


--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com