OT: Motorcycle AIRBAGS???? Believe it or not!

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>
> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
> day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon us--early
> next year according to Honda.
>
> Dave

To be honest I cannot see any usefulness in this at all. It might be even
more dangerous, as to throw the victim of the bike.

I would take bets on this thing going south on them. Class action comes to
mind. It might even effect sales of the Goldwing model. Next years sales
will tell us.


--
Chris

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it is in English, thank a
soldier. If it is in ebonics, thank your Congressman.

On 9/18/2005 9:22 AM Edwin Pawlowski mumbled something about the following:
> "Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>And what do you think would happen at 75MPH with the airbag? It's only
>>good for approx 30 MPH according to Honda. I've already gone head on with
>>a car at 30+ MPH on a bike, and if I had been held down onto the bike, I
>>would have been part of the car, instead of laying several feet away from
>>the wreck.
>
>
> Or with a properly sized and deployed bag, you may have been slowed down
> considerably for less impact. Neither one of us knows that though.

Slowed down? The bike was buried into the car. Had I been held to the
bike, I would have been buried in the car along with the bike. That I
DO KNOW for sure.
>
>
>>And what do you think would happen if that airbag deployed when hitting a
>>bad dip or bump? How much force is needed to deploy it, and where must
>>the bike hit the object to deploy it? The front wheel is the leading most
>>edge on a motorcycle, and can get a fair amount of force applied to it
>>without ever hitting another object.
>
>
> Wow, the guys at Honda probably never thought about that. We should tell
> them.
>
> What I don't understand is how you can condem a piece of equipment when
> you've never seen one, do not know how it works, do not know what
> circumstances deploy it, have no idea of its capabilities. Last year I had
> a discussion with a neighbor about seat belts. He still insisted he is
> safer without them because he does not want to get trapped in the car. Just
> a couple of days after this, there was an accident on the highway near us.
> The driver was thrown from the car, slid on the road and then the car spun
> around over top of her killing her. He wears his belt now.
>
> I still see a lot of riders with no helmets because they are safer also.
> Just like the kid down the street that has been in a nursing home for the
> past 12 years.
>
> Your bike, your body, do as you please.
>
>
>
Go back and read what I wrote. I asked a question about what would
happen if it discharged when it shouldn't. This isn't as much of an
issue in a car, as you have a seat back that you would get pushed back
onto. On a motorcycle, you may or may not have a seat back. Also
having your hands ripped from the handlebars, especially if one is
knocked loose while another is still grasping, can cause an accident on
it's own. This isn't near as much a problem in a car if an airbag
should go off while driving down the road.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

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Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

In article <[email protected]>,
Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> The Yugoslavian carmaker Yugo developed an airbag for a motorcycle
> some 25 years ago. But just like their car version, you had to blow it
> up yourself.

Heh.

How do you double the value of a Yugo?

Put a jug of milk in the back seat.

;-)

--
Go read this. Now.
<http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html>

In article <[email protected]>, Robatoy
<[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <080920051944407624%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca>,
> Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:
>
> > Go read this. Now.
> > <http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html>
>
> Powerful stuff. Thanks a bunch for that.

I agree, powerful stuff. I'm not the one to thank for it.

Bill shut down the comments after more than 650, but I followed them
for a few days. There was a meme that was nascent, but growing, of a
bumper sticker.

One word.

"WOOF!"

I like it.

djb

--
"Usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it. "
-- Gene Spafford, 1992

In article <[email protected]>, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Interesting perspective from one of the survivors of Katrina:
>
> <http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=14ewb3ap.b147fdut
> &Uy=nyvoby&Ux=1>
>
> This is a very large slide show with 197 slides, the part most applicable
> to the above occurs near the end of the slide show where the author and his
> friend made their way to the Superdome. They got there and encountered
> thousands of people who had waited all night for the buses that didn't
> come. What is of note is he and his companions reaction -- it was all gray
> -- they didn't just resign themselves to wait with the other thousands (for
> some very good reasons I suspect), they attempted to solve the problem
> another way and were successful.

Wow.

Thanks for that link.

--
Go read this. Now.
<http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html>

David wrote:
> http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>
> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
> day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
> us--early next year according to Honda.
>
> Dave

Not a particularly new idea. Some senator proposed seat belts be
required for motorcycles about 30 years ago. I guess this is for those
who don't like seat belts.

Upscale wrote:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >
> > > I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
> > > day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
> us--early
> > > next year according to Honda.
>
> I can see them having some value in certain type of accidents. For sudden
> bike stops like smashing into another car, if it stops the rider from flying
> 100 feet through the air, then it would be a benefit. Can't see how it being
> much of help with skids though.
>
> Of course, even though I'm not a motorcycle addict, I can see an air bag as
> lowering a bike rider's machismo.

An airbag deploying at the wrong time is going to lower more than the
rider's machismo level. I'm not at all sure that there is enough
restraint possible evenin a head-on to provide an acceptable
cushion...the rider is as likely to go backwards from the airbag's
deployment, or be knocked sideways...or any of a half dozen unneeded
actions.

David wrote:
> Art and Diane wrote:
>
> > Sell this feature on bikes to people who won't wear helmets? Where's
> > the logic to that?
> >
> > Art
> >
> >
> >
> > David wrote:
> >
> >> http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
> >>
> >>
> >> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that
> >> some day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
> >> us--early next year according to Honda.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> >
> It's a passive restraint. Actually, there IS logic in that. Riders
> without helmets are in more need of a cushion during an accident.

You crash on a bike, you ARE going to hit the ground. How does an
airbag help there?

George wrote:
> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > So many people have seen "Vacation", they think a deployed air bag stays
> > inflated. :)
>
> Or don't think that hitting the bag or the bag hitting them is the same as
> any other obstacle unless the bag were already soft and deflating on impact.
>
> The technology of an air bag is complex. Fast enough to catch, soft enough
> to cushion, but slow enough in deflation to protect the average
> individual....

I've laid bikes down, usually with nothing more than bruises. The one
crash I did have was in the woods, where a kid was doing donuts in the
middle of the trail, after a drop off (blind) jump. He hit me head on.
I rose up under the crossbar braced handlebars, and whanged my thighs
hard enough to tear the ligaments on both sides of my groin.

That's it for my experience with a motorcycle head-on, for which I'm
grateful (I had the torn ligaments, the kid had a broken leg). I cannot
see how an airbag will work properly in a great many conditions,
though, as there must be some protection (force?) downward to maintain
a seat on the bike, which, after impact will be toppling to one side or
another, at whatever speed remains.

That leaves the rider, and any passenger, open to the joys of having a
700-900 pound motorcycle topple on him, which I guess is a possiblity
anyway. In a couple of instances, I laid the bike down on the pavement,
and let it slide away from me--but I never rode a Hardly Ableson or any
of those half ton monsters where not getting out from under means
auto-amputation.

It should be interesting. I would bet it comes out as an option, which
means it is almost certain to die the same death that seatbelts did in
'57 Fords.

Innovation.

Check out side-impact "curtain" airbags on Volvo's new convertible:

http://www.swedespeed.com/news/publish/Volvo_News/article_597.html

lgb wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
> > It seems to me that if you've got time to "lay it down" you've got time to
> > get out of the way.
> >
> > Course I only ride 10 or 20 thousand miles a year...
> >
> I cerainly can't claim that kind of mileage, but I did have an occasion
> about 20 years ago where a car ran a light in front of me. I didn't
> have time or space to turn, but laying it down slowed it enough that the
> car was past before it and I tried to occupy the same space. In that
> case, I didn't get off, just yanked the bike back upright and checked my
> pants for brown stains :-).
>
> BTW, I didn't even know I remembered how to lay it down - I certainly
> didn't have time for thinking about it.
>
> And there are those times the bike goes down without your consent and
> getting away from it is required. I've had a couple of those too.
>

Long years ago, I used to ride a lot. There were times when reaction
time had to be quick, choice was minimal, and I laid the bike down as
what I felt, in a true split second, was the only option. Possibly,
some of the guys I knew could have turned the machine. Possibly not.
Most of them, like me, didn't track the miles ridden, because a lot was
off-road, some of it competition. Too, I didn't track miles because I
usually rode at least a half-dozen different bikes a year, often a
dozen. And, too, unlike truck drivers, we didn't get paid by the mile.

George wrote:
> "Dick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I've never been without at least one motorcycle, usually more for the last
> > 45 yrs. and have never even considered laying it down to avoid a
> > collision. Maybe I would if I was going to run into the side of an 18
> > wheeler and I thought I might be able to slide under but even then you
> > usually high side and go flipping. The brakes and rubber tires on the
> > pavement will slow you up a whole lot faster than steel on the bike or you
> > tumbling thru the air.
> > Dick
>
> I guess you guys are using another definition of laydown from the one used
> here in Motorcycle Safety. Laydown is a graceful way of accepting the
> inevitable, not an attempt to avoid it. Rather than ride the bike into a
> obstacle, or attempt to stay seated if it is at an unrecoverable angle, you
> use the laydown to get clear of it by remaining behind, not under.
>
> It's the difference between a three-point heels - ass - head parachute
> landing versus the PLF, which distributes the momentum along the less
> vulnerable portions of your anatomy.

Agreed. Of course, today, no shirts, no shoes, shorts and bobtailed
helmets seem to be de rigeur amongst the riding crowds of all ages.
Coming from the pre-electric start days, I found shoes a VERY useful
accessory, and boots even better. Long sleeve shirts, and jeans, were a
minimum, along with a jet style helmet, with leathers, even very light
ones, preferable to jeans and a shirt.

I tend to envy--I guess that's the word--riders who have never been in
a position to have to lay a bike down. One of the reasons I quit riding
years ago was my inability to convince my right hand that my reflexes
had slowed enough to make less twist a good idea. In truth, tootling
along on two wheels wasn't really what I enjoyed. Dragging footpegs,
sliding and generally overdoing were, which is why I found off-road
riding more fun than road riding, finally.

Charlie Self wrote:
> Upscale wrote:
> > "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
> > > > day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
> > us--early
> > > > next year according to Honda.
> >
> > I can see them having some value in certain type of accidents. For sudden
> > bike stops like smashing into another car, if it stops the rider from flying
> > 100 feet through the air, then it would be a benefit. Can't see how it being
> > much of help with skids though.
> >
> > Of course, even though I'm not a motorcycle addict, I can see an air bag as
> > lowering a bike rider's machismo.
>
> An airbag deploying at the wrong time is going to lower more than the
> rider's machismo level. I'm not at all sure that there is enough
> restraint possible evenin a head-on to provide an acceptable
> cushion...the rider is as likely to go backwards from the airbag's
> deployment, or be knocked sideways...or any of a half dozen unneeded
> actions.

Probably. And probably also the resulting trajectory, more often
than not, will be more survivable than the original.

There is no safe or unsafe, there is only more safe or less safe.

--

FF

CW wrote:
> My father in law refused to wear seat belts. He always said that, in an
> accident, he would rather be thrown clear than stay with the car. He was
> fortunate to have never had to test his theory.
>
> "Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Being ejected AWAY from the bike was MUCH safer than being
> > held onto the bike.
> >

I'll unequivocally stated that being OFF a motorcycle that goes down is
far better than being ON one. That doesn't include high-siding, of
course, but if you were belted to a bike and went down at road
speeds--say 75 or 80 mph on some Interstates--the bike would slap you
to death quickly, ro slide along and do a friction amputation of your
leg and anything else caught underneath. Get off it, let it go (hell,
hang on if you want: I did a couple times off-road), hope the guy
behind you sees you and can stop in time.

Odinn wrote:
> On 9/18/2005 11:56 AM Edwin Pawlowski mumbled something about the following:
> > "Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> >>Go back and read what I wrote. I asked a question about what would happen
> >>if it discharged when it shouldn't. This isn't as much of an issue in a
> >>car, as you have a seat back that you would get pushed back onto. On a
> >>motorcycle, you may or may not have a seat back. Also having your hands
> >>ripped from the handlebars, especially if one is knocked loose while
> >>another is still grasping, can cause an accident on it's own. This isn't
> >>near as much a problem in a car if an airbag should go off while driving
> >>down the road.
> >
> >
> > I read what you wrote. You have legitimate questions, but I'm sure the
> > engineers have considered this. You aren't making assumptions based on
> > nothing are you? As I stated, neither of us knows how this works yet so we
> > should not condemn what we don't know. The air bag is to cushion your body
> > as you travel forward after impact of the bike to another object. By
> > limiting the size of it the bag would not push far enough to push you back
> > and away from the handlebars. The bag is a barrier, not a projectile aimed
> > at the back of the bike.
> >
> >
> Have you ever been hit by an airbag? Do you ride a motorcycle?

No and no, respectively.

> Getting
> hit by an airbag will knock your hands away from the steering wheel in a
> car.

Only because the airbag is wider than the steering wheel.

> Doing the same thing unexpectedly on a motorcycle when not
> involved in a crash can be deadly.

Only if the airbag is wider than the spacing of the handgrips.
In the picture I saw, this did not appear to be the case though
it appears to be a mannikin and a permanantly inflated bag.
It looks to be designed stop the rider from doing a faceplant
on the inside of the windsheild and hold him down on the seat,
without knocking him back or knocking his hands off the grips.

Even if the Goldwing bag IS too wide, it is clearly possible
to make one smaller, so the problem you anticipate is not
unavoidable.

> Don't think it can't happen? It's
> happened plenty of times in cars with just hitting a bad bump causing
> the sensors to trigger.

I _expected_ to hear of many such cases, but have not.

I've hear of one (1) case of an airbag deploying upon hitting a
bump (railroad tracks). Given that some railroad tracks are on
a hump ten feet above grade it is not clear if THAT bump was
severe enough to cause a normal driver to lose control of the
car regardless.

--

FF

Odinn wrote:
> On 9/18/2005 3:02 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
> following:
> > Odinn wrote:
> >
....
> >
> >
> > Only if the airbag is wider than the spacing of the handgrips.
> > In the picture I saw, this did not appear to be the case though
> > it appears to be a mannikin and a permanantly inflated bag.
> > It looks to be designed stop the rider from doing a faceplant
> > on the inside of the windsheild and hold him down on the seat,
> > without knocking him back or knocking his hands off the grips.
> >
> > Even if the Goldwing bag IS too wide, it is clearly possible
> > to make one smaller, so the problem you anticipate is not
> > unavoidable.
>
> It doesn't have to be wider, it just has to deploy a little to one side
> to knock an hand off the handlebars. It only has to deploy unexpectedly
> in a non-accident to possibly cause an accident that would be
> considerably more dangerous on a bike than in a car.

Understood. I doubt that it is desiged to deploy to one side,
or that it CAN deply to one side.

>
> Once again, I'll state that if the airbag is designed to hold a person
> down in their seat like you suggest, then it is a VERY dangerous move.

I don't see how holding the rider in the seat is in general
more dangerous than flying forward over the handlebars. It
won't stop the rider from laying the bike down or exiting from
the side or rear prior to a head-on collision

...

>
> All it has to happen is one time, and Honda will have a serious lawsuit
> on their hands as well as recalls, and more than likely a serious
> decline in sales of the GW.
>

Agreed, which leads me to suspect that Honda hs an exceptionally
high level of confidence in it.

--

FF

Odinn wrote:
> On 9/18/2005 7:55 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
> following:
> > Odinn wrote:
> >
> >>On 9/18/2005 3:02 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
> >>following:
> >>
> >>>Odinn wrote:
> >>>
> >
> > .....
> >
> >>>
> >>>Only if the airbag is wider than the spacing of the handgrips.
> >>>In the picture I saw, this did not appear to be the case though
> >>>it appears to be a mannikin and a permanantly inflated bag.
> >>>It looks to be designed stop the rider from doing a faceplant
> >>>on the inside of the windsheild and hold him down on the seat,
> >>>without knocking him back or knocking his hands off the grips.
> >>>
> >>>Even if the Goldwing bag IS too wide, it is clearly possible
> >>>to make one smaller, so the problem you anticipate is not
> >>>unavoidable.
> >>
> >>It doesn't have to be wider, it just has to deploy a little to one side
> >>to knock an hand off the handlebars. It only has to deploy unexpectedly
> >>in a non-accident to possibly cause an accident that would be
> >>considerably more dangerous on a bike than in a car.
> >
> >
> > Understood. I doubt that it is desiged to deploy to one side,
> > or that it CAN deply to one side.
>
> Designed or not, it is a bag that is expanded by a small explosion.
> There is no way to guarantee it will not expand in one direction or another.

I disagree. Moreover I would be surprised if it is anything
but trivial to guarantee the geometry of the expansion of the airbag.

> >
> >
> >>Once again, I'll state that if the airbag is designed to hold a person
> >>down in their seat like you suggest, then it is a VERY dangerous move.
> >
> >
> > I don't see how holding the rider in the seat is in general
> > more dangerous than flying forward over the handlebars. It
> > won't stop the rider from laying the bike down or exiting from
> > the side or rear prior to a head-on collision
> >
>
> You've obviously never seen a motorcycle crash into a car. Holding a
> rider on the bike in such an event is probably more dangerous to the
> rider than being catapulted over it.

You're assuming the rider will be catapulted over the top
of what the motorcycle hits. How about being catapulted
_into it_? Better to do a faceplant into an SUV, van, truck,
bus, trailer, jersey wall telephone pole or bridge abutment
without an airbag inbetween or not?

You're right, I've never seen a motorcycle collide with a car.
I have only heard one description of an accident like that from
one witness. The rider was catapulted over the car and suffered
a traumatic amputation of one leg by a stop sign.

> Any rider who thinks that laying a
> bike down prior to a collision is stupid, since a motorcycle can slow
> down much faster while still on its wheels than when sliding metal
> against asphalt, and you have a better chance of avoiding the accident
> if you have full control of the bike instead of having no control while
> it is sliding.

The airbag would not interfere with that either.

Have you ever heard of an airbag deploying other than in a
collision? Please be specific.

--

FF

Odinn wrote:
> On 9/19/2005 2:38 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
> following:
> > Odinn wrote:
> >
> >>On 9/18/2005 7:55 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
> >>following:
> >>
> >>>Odinn wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>On 9/18/2005 3:02 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
> >>>>following:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Odinn wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>>.....
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Only if the airbag is wider than the spacing of the handgrips.
> >>>>>In the picture I saw, this did not appear to be the case though
> >>>>>it appears to be a mannikin and a permanantly inflated bag.
> >>>>>It looks to be designed stop the rider from doing a faceplant
> >>>>>on the inside of the windsheild and hold him down on the seat,
> >>>>>without knocking him back or knocking his hands off the grips.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Even if the Goldwing bag IS too wide, it is clearly possible
> >>>>>to make one smaller, so the problem you anticipate is not
> >>>>>unavoidable.
> >>>>
> >>>>It doesn't have to be wider, it just has to deploy a little to one side
> >>>>to knock an hand off the handlebars. It only has to deploy unexpectedly
> >>>>in a non-accident to possibly cause an accident that would be
> >>>>considerably more dangerous on a bike than in a car.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Understood. I doubt that it is desiged to deploy to one side,
> >>>or that it CAN deply to one side.
> >>
> >>Designed or not, it is a bag that is expanded by a small explosion.
> >>There is no way to guarantee it will not expand in one direction or another.
> >
> >
> > I disagree. Moreover I would be surprised if it is anything
> > but trivial to guarantee the geometry of the expansion of the airbag.
>
> Then be surprised. Look at any highspeed video of an airbag deploying.

Having done that, I cannot recall ever seeing one blow out
sideways and then straighten out. Regardless, I daresay the
collison of tire with whatever the bike has run into will
likely moot the issue of holding onto the grips.

...
> >
> >
> > You're assuming the rider will be catapulted over the top
> > of what the motorcycle hits. How about being catapulted
> > _into it_? Better to do a faceplant into an SUV, van, truck,
> > bus, trailer, jersey wall telephone pole or bridge abutment
> > without an airbag inbetween or not?
>
> No, I'm not assuming anything, I said that being held onto the bike is
> probably more dangerous than being catapulted over. You need a lesson
> in reading comprehension.

If you are not assuming anything you cannot logically reach any
conclusion.

My supposition, at least, was consistent with your remarks.

> >
> > You're right, I've never seen a motorcycle collide with a car.
> > I have only heard one description of an accident like that from
> > one witness. The rider was catapulted over the car and suffered
> > a traumatic amputation of one leg by a stop sign.
> >
> Not only have I seen a motorcycle collide with a car, I've gone head on
> with a car in 1988. The motorcycle was buried into the hood, totalling
> the car, I was thrown free of the car. Had I stayed with the
> motorcycle, I probably would have lost both legs below the knees. In
> the case where I saw a motorcycle hit the side of a car that had ran a
> red light, the rider was thrown over the car, the motorcycle was in
> completely in the back seat of the car, killing the passenger in the
> back seat.
> >
> >>Any rider who thinks that laying a
> >>bike down prior to a collision is stupid, since a motorcycle can slow
> >>down much faster while still on its wheels than when sliding metal
> >>against asphalt, and you have a better chance of avoiding the accident
> >>if you have full control of the bike instead of having no control while
> >>it is sliding.
> >
> >
> > The airag would not interfere with that either.
>
> I didn't say an airbag would interfer. You really need to learn how to
> read.

I never said you said that an airbag would interfere. You
really need to learn how to read.

> >
> > Have you ever heard of an airbag deploying other than in a
> > collision? Please be specific.
> >
> Yes, I have heard of an airbag deploying when not in a collision. One
> when a car hit a large pothole on a hiway, another when hitting a set of
> railroad tracks. I've also seen it happen in a police chase video when
> someone trying to outrun the cops hit a bad dip in the road (not saying
> the suspect didn't deserve it, but it wasn't a crash when it deployed).
>

I've heard of the (or a, if more than one) railroad track case.
Not having seen the tracks, it is unclear if that was a crash
prior to deployment. Some railroad tracks are nasty enough that
crossing them at high speed will damage the front end so badly
as to make it impossible to maintain control. For all I know
he same may have been true of the pothole. The point being that
improper deloyment is so rare as to not be much of an issue
for cars. I'm not clear on how many GoldWings are driven
hard over curbs and the like, so it may be more of an issue
with motorcycles than with cars.

The kinds of accidents you describe seem to be more germaine.
Honda claims, IIRC that the GoldWing airbag is only effective
below about 35 mph. I dunno what happens above that speed,
maybe the rider catapults over the handlebars.

--

FF

In article <[email protected]>,
David <[email protected]> wrote:
>Leon wrote:
>
>> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>>>
>>>I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
>>>day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon us--early
>>>next year according to Honda.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>
>>
>> I saw that too.
>>
>> I guess Honda wants to still be able to sell motorcycles in California next
>> year. ;~)
>>
>>
>pedestrians will be next, Leon. <g>


Not directly related, but see:
<http://www.hsegroup.com/hse/text/cowboy.htm>

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:28:20 GMT, Art and Diane <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sell this feature on bikes to people who won't wear helmets? Where's
> the logic to that?

The world _does_ need organ donors, and young healthy male brain-dead
M/C crash victims usually have healthy organs. I don't care if you
don't want to wear a helmet, but sign the back of your drivers license,
OK?

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:00:01 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mr. Self made an interesting point. That bag, in a car, slams you to the
> back of the seat,

No, it doesn't. They're not that big. They slow your forward progress
so your face doesn't impact hard things.

> pinning you down.

No, it doesn't. They deflate instantly, there are huge vents in the
backs of the bags. I've seen dozens of them over the years as an EMT,
they don't pin anything to anywhere.


> With no back, it might just knock me
> AND my cooler off the bike!

Because, they'd use exactly the same bags as in a car, is that it?

On Fri, 9 Sep 2005 07:51:59 -0400, George <George@least> wrote:
>
> "Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

>> The world _does_ need organ donors, and young healthy male brain-dead
>> M/C crash victims usually have healthy organs. I don't care if you
>> don't want to wear a helmet, but sign the back of your drivers license,
>> OK?

> Hear hear! Mobile organ donors. Though that type tends to ride the crotch
> rockets, where the bag would be ineffective.

Might be the wrong attitude for an EMT to have, but there it is. I
gotta be me, y'know?

> I think the sensor -rating program would be a bit difficult with this kind
> of thing. Motorcycle geometry, except on the purely cushy road models,
> would have to make the decision to deploy contingent on at least three or
> four factors, rather than simple deceleration and impact sensors.

Technical impossibility never stopped brain-dead lawmakers from
mandating things though, _especially_ in the Peoples' Republic of
California.

> Would be sort of nice to have a belly bag on snowmobiles, though. Bellies
> full of burgers and beer impacting the handlebars make for a lot of
> peritonitis.

One of our firefighters left the sled, slid face-first across the field,
and impacted a rock with her elbow. The ortho guy described it as "You
know, when you finish a bag of potato chips, the crumbs left in the
bottom of the bag? That's what your bone in your elbow look like right
now".

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:52:25 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Because, they'd use exactly the same bags as in a car, is that it?
>
> I have no idea. Maybe, some engineer has a sense of humour and designs
> one that looks like a fist? A fly-swatter? A boxing glove?
> Work with me here, Dave...

I'm tryin, baby, I really am. There are reasons that airbags aren't
perfect, but the ones you cited aren't realistic.

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:10:30 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:52:25 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

>> > I have no idea. Maybe, some engineer has a sense of humour and designs
>> > one that looks like a fist? A fly-swatter? A boxing glove?
>> > Work with me here, Dave...
>>
>> I'm tryin, baby, I really am. There are reasons that airbags aren't
>> perfect, but the ones you cited aren't realistic.
>
> It is SO like YOU to bring reality into the mix.

Sorry, man. I tend to be like that, which annoys my boss and coworkers
too, believe me.

"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:28:20 GMT, Art and Diane <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Sell this feature on bikes to people who won't wear helmets? Where's
>> the logic to that?
>
> The world _does_ need organ donors, and young healthy male brain-dead
> M/C crash victims usually have healthy organs. I don't care if you
> don't want to wear a helmet, but sign the back of your drivers license,
> OK?
>

Hear hear! Mobile organ donors. Though that type tends to ride the crotch
rockets, where the bag would be ineffective.

I think the sensor -rating program would be a bit difficult with this kind
of thing. Motorcycle geometry, except on the purely cushy road models,
would have to make the decision to deploy contingent on at least three or
four factors, rather than simple deceleration and impact sensors.

Would be sort of nice to have a belly bag on snowmobiles, though. Bellies
full of burgers and beer impacting the handlebars make for a lot of
peritonitis.

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [tidied up]
>
>>Some senator proposed seat belts be
>> required for motorcycles about 30 years ago. I guess this is for those
>> who don't like seat belts.
>
> How incredibly stupid was THAT idea. The whole idea is to get away from
> that bouncing lump of metal after a spill (and pray your leathers stay
> together)

A yes, leathers. Dispatched to a call where the rider was said to have
departed the road at close to 90 mph - caller said "I think he's dead" -
something with which we tended to agree. Nonetheless, shattered helmet and
scarred leathers held a living rider.

When we called in report to the hospital, they noticed an absence, and asked
what his BP was. I replied that we could not get one, because he was in
leathers (now splinted).

We were met at the door of the ED by the boys from the psych ward, complete
with their set of leather restraints....

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> So many people have seen "Vacation", they think a deployed air bag stays
> inflated. :)

Or don't think that hitting the bag or the bag hitting them is the same as
any other obstacle unless the bag were already soft and deflating on impact.

The technology of an air bag is complex. Fast enough to catch, soft enough
to cushion, but slow enough in deflation to protect the average
individual....

Zero-Zero ejection seat. Module in automobiles....

"CW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Been done, been talked about. Read the whole thread.
>
> "Scott Lurndal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> What the rider needs is "airbag leathers" When they depart the bike
>> at speed, their leathers inflate, like the inflatable airbags used
>> to bounce pathfinder across mars during landing. A few bounces and
>> the rider comes to a stop and punctures the airbag. Of course, even
>> an airbag might not help if there is a brick wall coming at the
>> rider at 60MPH.
>>
>> Might be a pretty hefty set of leathers, however.
>>
>> scott
>>
>> >
>
>

"Dick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've never been without at least one motorcycle, usually more for the last
> 45 yrs. and have never even considered laying it down to avoid a
> collision. Maybe I would if I was going to run into the side of an 18
> wheeler and I thought I might be able to slide under but even then you
> usually high side and go flipping. The brakes and rubber tires on the
> pavement will slow you up a whole lot faster than steel on the bike or you
> tumbling thru the air.
> Dick

I guess you guys are using another definition of laydown from the one used
here in Motorcycle Safety. Laydown is a graceful way of accepting the
inevitable, not an attempt to avoid it. Rather than ride the bike into a
obstacle, or attempt to stay seated if it is at an unrecoverable angle, you
use the laydown to get clear of it by remaining behind, not under.

It's the difference between a three-point heels - ass - head parachute
landing versus the PLF, which distributes the momentum along the less
vulnerable portions of your anatomy.

"Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Slowed down? The bike was buried into the car. Had I been held to the
> bike, I would have been buried in the car along with the bike. That I DO
> KNOW for sure.
>>

You suffer from a serious lack of knowledge. The chain of posts provides
ample evidence that you neither understand the concept or operation of an
airbag, the concept of pushing away (laying down) from a heavy piece of
metal nor do you care to learn.

Circumstances may protect you, regardless. You will, of course be
ungrateful.

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Odinn wrote:
>> On 9/18/2005 7:55 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the


> >> Any rider who thinks that laying a
>> bike down prior to a collision is stupid, since a motorcycle can slow
>> down much faster while still on its wheels than when sliding metal
>> against asphalt, and you have a better chance of avoiding the accident
>> if you have full control of the bike instead of having no control while
>> it is sliding.

Hogwash. The difference in friction between miscellaneous bits of metal and
the road versus the rider and the road is what counts. Once again, getting
off the bike (pushing away and decelerating) is not to avoid accident,
merely the kind of injury involved with getting entangled in the bike when
an accident is unavoidable.

"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >
>> > I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that
>> > some
>> > day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
> us--early
>> > next year according to Honda.
>
> I can see them having some value in certain type of accidents. For sudden
> bike stops like smashing into another car, if it stops the rider from
> flying
> 100 feet through the air, then it would be a benefit. Can't see how it
> being
> much of help with skids though.

It's likely that the air bag will help in slow moving accidents. Air bags
in cars keep you from hitting something else that will stop you, the
steering wheel or dash. On a bike a higher speed crash will still likely
throw you up as you deflect off of the air bag. The bikes rear wheel raise
pretty high off the ground when the front end stops instantly.

On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:33:28 -0600, Dave Balderstone
<dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Robatoy
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In article <080920051944407624%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca>,
>> Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:
>>
>> > Go read this. Now.
>> > <http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html>
>>
>> Powerful stuff. Thanks a bunch for that.
>
>I agree, powerful stuff. I'm not the one to thank for it.
>
>Bill shut down the comments after more than 650, but I followed them
>for a few days. There was a meme that was nascent, but growing, of a
>bumper sticker.
>
>One word.
>
>"WOOF!"
>
>I like it.
>
>djb

Interesting perspective from one of the survivors of Katrina:
<http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=14ewb3ap.b147fdut&Uy=nyvoby&Ux=1>

This is a very large slide show with 197 slides, the part most applicable
to the above occurs near the end of the slide show where the author and his
friend made their way to the Superdome. They got there and encountered
thousands of people who had waited all night for the buses that didn't
come. What is of note is he and his companions reaction -- it was all gray
-- they didn't just resign themselves to wait with the other thousands (for
some very good reasons I suspect), they attempted to solve the problem
another way and were successful.

Just further validation of the referenced authors premise.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 02:19:24 -0400, Odinn <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 9/18/2005 2:08 AM hoot mumbled something about the following:
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:15:34 -0400, Odinn <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On 9/9/2005 3:40 AM Upscale mumbled something about the following:
>>>
>>>>"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:design-
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Mr. Self made an interesting point. That bag, in a car, slams you to the
>>>>>back of the seat, pinning you down. With no back, it might just knock me
>>>>>AND my cooler off the bike!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Maybe, but lets face it, something will have happened for the air bag to go
>>>>off. If the bike is moving at the time, I'd rather be knocked off in any
>>>>direction except for flying forwards. No way in hell an expanding air bag is
>>>>going to knock you 100 feet in any direction which is entirely possible with
>>>>a forwards ejection.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>One would have to be going pretty damn fast to be slung 100 ft in an
>>>accident.
>>
>>
>> At 35Mph it would take roughly 2 seconds to travel 100 feet. Do you
>> think you'd tumble for two seconds at 35Mph ?
>> When i was younger i came off a bike at 60Mph and the police estimated
>> i traveled nearly 50feet before i touched the ground.
>> My back still aches.
>>
>I didn't travel anywhere near 100 ft. I might have traveled 100 ft
>total if you include the upward ejection, the arc, and the downward fall.
>
>OTOH, when I hit a deer 6 years ago doing 60 MPH, I traveled a total 216
>ft, some of it sliding, some of it tumbling, very little of it in the
>air. If an airbag had held me to the bike, I wouldn't be here today, as
>the bike tumbled end over end a couple of times as well as rolling over
>a few times. Being ejected AWAY from the bike was MUCH safer than being
>held onto the bike.

Mate... i agree totally, no way in the world would i want to be held
to the bike. I was just making the point that you don't have to be
going very fast to be flung a hundred feet. Your 216ft at 60Mph
illustrates that nicely. For my money 60Mph isn't "very fast".
Here in Australia there has been talk over the years from various
"safety bodies" about seat belt alternatives for bikes, the thought of
being tethered makes my blood go cold.
hoot.

On 9/17/2005 11:49 PM Edwin Pawlowski mumbled something about the following:
> "Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>
>>lifted off the ground ejecting me up at about a 70 degree angle. No
>>amount of airbag could have stopped that unless it was on top of me
>>instead of in front of me.
>
>
> I would think they would design it to do just that, maybe sort of envelop
> you front and top.
>
>
No thanks. I'll take my changes with a get-off instead of an airbag
holding me down onto a bike.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005 09:20:10 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <090920052254152590%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca>,
> Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, Mark & Juanita
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Interesting perspective from one of the survivors of Katrina:
>> >
>> > <http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=14ewb3ap.b147fd
>> > tu
>> > &Uy=nyvoby&Ux=1>
>> >
>> > This is a very large slide show with 197 slides, the part most applicable
>> > to the above occurs near the end of the slide show where the author and his
>> > friend made their way to the Superdome. They got there and encountered
>> > thousands of people who had waited all night for the buses that didn't
>> > come. What is of note is he and his companions reaction -- it was all gray
>> > -- they didn't just resign themselves to wait with the other thousands (for
>> > some very good reasons I suspect), they attempted to solve the problem
>> > another way and were successful.
>>
>> Wow.
>>
>> Thanks for that link.
>
>Homeland Security brown-shirts could have nuked the site. The pictures
>are no longer available. Lest we see what their screw-ups look like.
>Bastards are confiscating cameras and memory cards all over that area.
>One of my closest friends (from South Florida...lost his house twice)
>was there for a week working the rescue effort. Nothing but harassment
>from the 'armed officials' about his taking pictures. Hell, he takes
>them all over the world, wherever there is a rescue effort...First time
>ever he got hassled like that. In his words: "We are now in a New
>Babylon of biblical proportions."

Hate to rain on your black-helicopter paranoia, the site was mostly
critical of the NO inhabitants as well as the local police for directing
people to the convention center and local officials for not arranging for
evacuation of the people who showed up there.




+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Mark & Juanita wrote:

> On Thu, 08 Sep 2005 22:02:15 GMT, Badger <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>David wrote:
>>
>>
>>>http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>>>
>>>
>>>I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
>>>day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
>>>us--early next year according to Honda.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>
>>TRL England made them in the 80's to see if it would work...
>
>
> Well, did it work? Or did Lucas do the ignitors? :-) [former owner of
> a British Sterling automobile]

The test film of BMW RTs with them, and Norton Commanders (wankel
engined police bikes) would indicate no involvement from the prince of
darkness, they went off correctly every time!

On 9/18/2005 2:31 AM hoot mumbled something about the following:
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 02:19:24 -0400, Odinn <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On 9/18/2005 2:08 AM hoot mumbled something about the following:
>>
>>>On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:15:34 -0400, Odinn <[email protected]>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 9/9/2005 3:40 AM Upscale mumbled something about the following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:design-
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Mr. Self made an interesting point. That bag, in a car, slams you to the
>>>>>>back of the seat, pinning you down. With no back, it might just knock me
>>>>>>AND my cooler off the bike!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Maybe, but lets face it, something will have happened for the air bag to go
>>>>>off. If the bike is moving at the time, I'd rather be knocked off in any
>>>>>direction except for flying forwards. No way in hell an expanding air bag is
>>>>>going to knock you 100 feet in any direction which is entirely possible with
>>>>>a forwards ejection.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>One would have to be going pretty damn fast to be slung 100 ft in an
>>>>accident.
>>>
>>>
>>>At 35Mph it would take roughly 2 seconds to travel 100 feet. Do you
>>>think you'd tumble for two seconds at 35Mph ?
>>>When i was younger i came off a bike at 60Mph and the police estimated
>>>i traveled nearly 50feet before i touched the ground.
>>>My back still aches.
>>>
>>
>>I didn't travel anywhere near 100 ft. I might have traveled 100 ft
>>total if you include the upward ejection, the arc, and the downward fall.
>>
>>OTOH, when I hit a deer 6 years ago doing 60 MPH, I traveled a total 216
>>ft, some of it sliding, some of it tumbling, very little of it in the
>>air. If an airbag had held me to the bike, I wouldn't be here today, as
>>the bike tumbled end over end a couple of times as well as rolling over
>>a few times. Being ejected AWAY from the bike was MUCH safer than being
>>held onto the bike.
>
>
> Mate... i agree totally, no way in the world would i want to be held
> to the bike. I was just making the point that you don't have to be
> going very fast to be flung a hundred feet. Your 216ft at 60Mph
> illustrates that nicely. For my money 60Mph isn't "very fast".
> Here in Australia there has been talk over the years from various
> "safety bodies" about seat belt alternatives for bikes, the thought of
> being tethered makes my blood go cold.
> hoot.

For some reason, I was thinking of 100 ft in the air, not total distance
traveled after hitting an object. Even so, 216 ft is probably not the
norm in a 60 mph crash with a bike into something that an airbag MIGHT
be of use.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

Sell this feature on bikes to people who won't wear helmets? Where's
the logic to that?

Art



David wrote:

> http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>
>
> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that
> some day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
> us--early next year according to Honda.
>
> Dave

On 9/19/2005 2:38 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
following:
> Odinn wrote:
>
>>On 9/18/2005 7:55 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
>>following:
>>
>>>Odinn wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 9/18/2005 3:02 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
>>>>following:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Odinn wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>.....
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Only if the airbag is wider than the spacing of the handgrips.
>>>>>In the picture I saw, this did not appear to be the case though
>>>>>it appears to be a mannikin and a permanantly inflated bag.
>>>>>It looks to be designed stop the rider from doing a faceplant
>>>>>on the inside of the windsheild and hold him down on the seat,
>>>>>without knocking him back or knocking his hands off the grips.
>>>>>
>>>>>Even if the Goldwing bag IS too wide, it is clearly possible
>>>>>to make one smaller, so the problem you anticipate is not
>>>>>unavoidable.
>>>>
>>>>It doesn't have to be wider, it just has to deploy a little to one side
>>>>to knock an hand off the handlebars. It only has to deploy unexpectedly
>>>>in a non-accident to possibly cause an accident that would be
>>>>considerably more dangerous on a bike than in a car.
>>>
>>>
>>>Understood. I doubt that it is desiged to deploy to one side,
>>>or that it CAN deply to one side.
>>
>>Designed or not, it is a bag that is expanded by a small explosion.
>>There is no way to guarantee it will not expand in one direction or another.
>
>
> I disagree. Moreover I would be surprised if it is anything
> but trivial to guarantee the geometry of the expansion of the airbag.

Then be surprised. Look at any highspeed video of an airbag deploying.
>
>
>>>
>>>>Once again, I'll state that if the airbag is designed to hold a person
>>>>down in their seat like you suggest, then it is a VERY dangerous move.
>>>
>>>
>>>I don't see how holding the rider in the seat is in general
>>>more dangerous than flying forward over the handlebars. It
>>>won't stop the rider from laying the bike down or exiting from
>>>the side or rear prior to a head-on collision
>>>
>>
>>You've obviously never seen a motorcycle crash into a car. Holding a
>>rider on the bike in such an event is probably more dangerous to the
>>rider than being catapulted over it.
>
>
> You're assuming the rider will be catapulted over the top
> of what the motorcycle hits. How about being catapulted
> _into it_? Better to do a faceplant into an SUV, van, truck,
> bus, trailer, jersey wall telephone pole or bridge abutment
> without an airbag inbetween or not?

No, I'm not assuming anything, I said that being held onto the bike is
probably more dangerous than being catapulted over. You need a lesson
in reading comprehension.
>
> You're right, I've never seen a motorcycle collide with a car.
> I have only heard one description of an accident like that from
> one witness. The rider was catapulted over the car and suffered
> a traumatic amputation of one leg by a stop sign.
>
Not only have I seen a motorcycle collide with a car, I've gone head on
with a car in 1988. The motorcycle was buried into the hood, totalling
the car, I was thrown free of the car. Had I stayed with the
motorcycle, I probably would have lost both legs below the knees. In
the case where I saw a motorcycle hit the side of a car that had ran a
red light, the rider was thrown over the car, the motorcycle was in
completely in the back seat of the car, killing the passenger in the
back seat.
>
>>Any rider who thinks that laying a
>>bike down prior to a collision is stupid, since a motorcycle can slow
>>down much faster while still on its wheels than when sliding metal
>>against asphalt, and you have a better chance of avoiding the accident
>>if you have full control of the bike instead of having no control while
>>it is sliding.
>
>
> The airag would not interfere with that either.

I didn't say an airbag would interfer. You really need to learn how to
read.
>
> Have you ever heard of an airbag deploying other than in a
> collision? Please be specific.
>
Yes, I have heard of an airbag deploying when not in a collision. One
when a car hit a large pothole on a hiway, another when hitting a set of
railroad tracks. I've also seen it happen in a police chase video when
someone trying to outrun the cops hit a bad dip in the road (not saying
the suspect didn't deserve it, but it wasn't a crash when it deployed).

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

On 9/19/2005 4:26 PM George mumbled something about the following:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Odinn wrote:
>>
>>>On 9/18/2005 7:55 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
>
>
>
>>>>Any rider who thinks that laying a
>>>
>>>bike down prior to a collision is stupid, since a motorcycle can slow
>>>down much faster while still on its wheels than when sliding metal
>>>against asphalt, and you have a better chance of avoiding the accident
>>>if you have full control of the bike instead of having no control while
>>>it is sliding.
>
>
> Hogwash. The difference in friction between miscellaneous bits of metal and
> the road versus the rider and the road is what counts. Once again, getting
> off the bike (pushing away and decelerating) is not to avoid accident,
> merely the kind of injury involved with getting entangled in the bike when
> an accident is unavoidable.
>
>
>
I hope you never ride a motorcycle, because you are dangerous to
yourself and others.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:design-
> Mr. Self made an interesting point. That bag, in a car, slams you to the
> back of the seat, pinning you down. With no back, it might just knock me
> AND my cooler off the bike!

Maybe, but lets face it, something will have happened for the air bag to go
off. If the bike is moving at the time, I'd rather be knocked off in any
direction except for flying forwards. No way in hell an expanding air bag is
going to knock you 100 feet in any direction which is entirely possible with
a forwards ejection.

Charles Spitzer wrote:

> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>George wrote:
>>
>>>"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>>So many people have seen "Vacation", they think a deployed air bag
>>>>stays
>>>>inflated. :)
>>>
>>>Or don't think that hitting the bag or the bag hitting them is the same
>>>as
>>>any other obstacle unless the bag were already soft and deflating on
>>>impact.
>>>
>>>The technology of an air bag is complex. Fast enough to catch, soft
>>>enough
>>>to cushion, but slow enough in deflation to protect the average
>>>individual....
>>
>>I've laid bikes down, usually with nothing more than bruises. The one
>>crash I did have was in the woods, where a kid was doing donuts in the
>>middle of the trail, after a drop off (blind) jump. He hit me head on.
>>I rose up under the crossbar braced handlebars, and whanged my thighs
>>hard enough to tear the ligaments on both sides of my groin.
>>
>>That's it for my experience with a motorcycle head-on, for which I'm
>>grateful (I had the torn ligaments, the kid had a broken leg). I cannot
>>see how an airbag will work properly in a great many conditions,
>>though, as there must be some protection (force?) downward to maintain
>>a seat on the bike, which, after impact will be toppling to one side or
>>another, at whatever speed remains.
>>
>>That leaves the rider, and any passenger, open to the joys of having a
>>700-900 pound motorcycle topple on him, which I guess is a possiblity
>>anyway. In a couple of instances, I laid the bike down on the pavement,
>>and let it slide away from me--but I never rode a Hardly Ableson or any
>>of those half ton monsters where not getting out from under means
>>auto-amputation.
>>
>>It should be interesting. I would bet it comes out as an option, which
>>means it is almost certain to die the same death that seatbelts did in
>>'57 Fords.
>
>
> they showed crash pictures of this on the news last night.
>
> it's not an option. will be on all goldwings next year. inflated, it appears
> to be shaped in such a way that you aren't launched over it, but held sort
> of under an edge of it. it's only good in up to 31 mph crash. it will only
> be useful in a head-on collision where you're still vertical (ie left
> turners in front of you) which are the majority of highway accidents the
> last time i looked. if you're struck anywhere else besides the front wheel
> or you hit something not head on, or the bike is on it's side before you
> hit, it would appear to be pretty useless.
>
> regards,
> charlie
> cave creek, az
>
>
Side air curtains will be on the next generation. :)

Dave

On 9/18/2005 1:12 AM Edwin Pawlowski mumbled something about the following:
> "Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>No thanks. I'll take my changes with a get-off instead of an airbag
>>holding me down onto a bike.
>
>
> Good luck. Cushioning of a well designed airbag would be far more effective
> than flying 75 mph into a solid mass. Just curious, do you wear seatbelts
> in a car or would you rather take your chances getting tossed out the door?
>
>
And what do you think would happen at 75MPH with the airbag? It's only
good for approx 30 MPH according to Honda. I've already gone head on
with a car at 30+ MPH on a bike, and if I had been held down onto the
bike, I would have been part of the car, instead of laying several feet
away from the wreck.

And what do you think would happen if that airbag deployed when hitting
a bad dip or bump? How much force is needed to deploy it, and where
must the bike hit the object to deploy it? The front wheel is the
leading most edge on a motorcycle, and can get a fair amount of force
applied to it without ever hitting another object.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

David wrote:

> http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>
>
> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
> day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
> us--early next year according to Honda.
>
> Dave
TRL England made them in the 80's to see if it would work...

On 9/18/2005 3:02 PM [email protected] mumbled something about the
following:
> Odinn wrote:
>
>>On 9/18/2005 11:56 AM Edwin Pawlowski mumbled something about the following:
>>
>>>"Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>>
>>>>Go back and read what I wrote. I asked a question about what would happen
>>>>if it discharged when it shouldn't. This isn't as much of an issue in a
>>>>car, as you have a seat back that you would get pushed back onto. On a
>>>>motorcycle, you may or may not have a seat back. Also having your hands
>>>>ripped from the handlebars, especially if one is knocked loose while
>>>>another is still grasping, can cause an accident on it's own. This isn't
>>>>near as much a problem in a car if an airbag should go off while driving
>>>>down the road.
>>>
>>>
>>>I read what you wrote. You have legitimate questions, but I'm sure the
>>>engineers have considered this. You aren't making assumptions based on
>>>nothing are you? As I stated, neither of us knows how this works yet so we
>>>should not condemn what we don't know. The air bag is to cushion your body
>>>as you travel forward after impact of the bike to another object. By
>>>limiting the size of it the bag would not push far enough to push you back
>>>and away from the handlebars. The bag is a barrier, not a projectile aimed
>>>at the back of the bike.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Have you ever been hit by an airbag? Do you ride a motorcycle?
>
>
> No and no, respectively.

Yes to both for me. Getting hit by an airbag is not fun, although it
was definitely better than hitting the dash would have been if the
seatbelt didn't restrain me. I'm not sure which hurt more, the bruise
from the seatbelt or the airbag. I do know the seatbelt bruise did last
longer.
>
>
>> Getting
>>hit by an airbag will knock your hands away from the steering wheel in a
>>car.
>
>
> Only because the airbag is wider than the steering wheel.
>
>
>>Doing the same thing unexpectedly on a motorcycle when not
>>involved in a crash can be deadly.
>
>
> Only if the airbag is wider than the spacing of the handgrips.
> In the picture I saw, this did not appear to be the case though
> it appears to be a mannikin and a permanantly inflated bag.
> It looks to be designed stop the rider from doing a faceplant
> on the inside of the windsheild and hold him down on the seat,
> without knocking him back or knocking his hands off the grips.
>
> Even if the Goldwing bag IS too wide, it is clearly possible
> to make one smaller, so the problem you anticipate is not
> unavoidable.

It doesn't have to be wider, it just has to deploy a little to one side
to knock an hand off the handlebars. It only has to deploy unexpectedly
in a non-accident to possibly cause an accident that would be
considerably more dangerous on a bike than in a car.

Once again, I'll state that if the airbag is designed to hold a person
down in their seat like you suggest, then it is a VERY dangerous move.
>
>
>>Don't think it can't happen? It's
>>happened plenty of times in cars with just hitting a bad bump causing
>>the sensors to trigger.
>
>
> I _expected_ to hear of many such cases, but have not.
>
> I've hear of one (1) case of an airbag deploying upon hitting a
> bump (railroad tracks). Given that some railroad tracks are on
> a hump ten feet above grade it is not clear if THAT bump was
> severe enough to cause a normal driver to lose control of the
> car regardless.
>

All it has to happen is one time, and Honda will have a serious lawsuit
on their hands as well as recalls, and more than likely a serious
decline in sales of the GW.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

Dave Hinz wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:00:01 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Mr. Self made an interesting point. That bag, in a car, slams you to the
>>back of the seat,
>
>
> No, it doesn't. They're not that big. They slow your forward progress
> so your face doesn't impact hard things.
>
>
>>pinning you down.
>
>
> No, it doesn't. They deflate instantly, there are huge vents in the
> backs of the bags. I've seen dozens of them over the years as an EMT,
> they don't pin anything to anywhere.
>
>
>
>>With no back, it might just knock me
>>AND my cooler off the bike!
>
>
> Because, they'd use exactly the same bags as in a car, is that it?

So many people have seen "Vacation", they think a deployed air bag stays
inflated. :)

Dave

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> An airbag deploying at the wrong time is going to lower more than the
> rider's machismo level. I'm not at all sure that there is enough
> restraint possible evenin a head-on to provide an acceptable
> cushion...the rider is as likely to go backwards from the airbag's
> deployment, or be knocked sideways...or any of a half dozen unneeded
> actions.

Sure, all of that could happen and more. I know all sorts of "but what if's"
were voiced during the original implementation of air bags for cars, but
here we are today. I'm sure that Honda has put quite a bit of research into
this, it's highly unlikely it's just a spur of the moment addition, so there
has to be some practical reasoning somewhere. It might well bomb out even
before it begins, but if there is even a shred of benefit just like there
has been with cars, then I believe it's worth exploring. Only people that
might lose out are recipients in need of organ donation.

It doesn't take an expert to know that the vast majority of motorcycle
deaths are the result of someone flying through the air and hitting the
ground, hard. If that can be curtailed or minimized in some way, then I can
envision more people surviving.

lgb wrote:

>
> My bike is 27 years old. Guess I'll keep it a while longer.
>
Modern bike!
Mine was built in '52, though I won't ride it on road being a hardtail
track/road bike

"Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
> > day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
us--early
> > next year according to Honda.

I can see them having some value in certain type of accidents. For sudden
bike stops like smashing into another car, if it stops the rider from flying
100 feet through the air, then it would be a benefit. Can't see how it being
much of help with skids though.

Of course, even though I'm not a motorcycle addict, I can see an air bag as
lowering a bike rider's machismo.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
> day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
> us--early next year according to Honda.
>

My bike is 27 years old. Guess I'll keep it a while longer.

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:08:30 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >[tidied up]
> >
> >>Some senator proposed seat belts be
> >> required for motorcycles about 30 years ago. I guess this is for those
> >> who don't like seat belts.
> >
> >How incredibly stupid was THAT idea. The whole idea is to get away from
> >that bouncing lump of metal after a spill (and pray your leathers stay
> >together)
>
> I was kind of thinking that also. Why would you want to tie yourself to
> a potentially spinning, rotating mass of metal that weighs more than you do
> with only yourself between that metal and the pavement? [shudder]
>

When I bought my 1st motorcycle (50+ years ago) the dealer took me to a
big grassy field and had me practice laying it down and getting away
from it. If anyone didn't learn it to his satisfaction, they didn't get
a bike.

Can you hear the insurance companies cringing?

--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> It seems to me that if you've got time to "lay it down" you've got time to
> get out of the way.
>
> Course I only ride 10 or 20 thousand miles a year...
>
I cerainly can't claim that kind of mileage, but I did have an occasion
about 20 years ago where a car ran a light in front of me. I didn't
have time or space to turn, but laying it down slowed it enough that the
car was past before it and I tried to occupy the same space. In that
case, I didn't get off, just yanked the bike back upright and checked my
pants for brown stains :-).

BTW, I didn't even know I remembered how to lay it down - I certainly
didn't have time for thinking about it.

And there are those times the bike goes down without your consent and
getting away from it is required. I've had a couple of those too.


--
BNSF = Build Now, Seep Forever

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>
> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
> day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon us--early
> next year according to Honda.
>
> Dave

I saw that too.

I guess Honda wants to still be able to sell motorcycles in California next
year. ;~)

"Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
> Have you ever been hit by an airbag?

No

Do you ride a motorcycle?

Not for a few years. Recently sold a Triumph.

>Getting hit by an airbag will knock your hands away from the steering wheel
>in a car. Doing the same thing unexpectedly on a motorcycle when not
>involved in a crash can be deadly. Don't think it can't happen?

Don't know and neither do you. Have you seen the design? Do you know hte
size? the mounting? Think about how it would cushion you if it just shot
straight up in front of you, not touching until you are being tossed over
the handlebars. Would you rather hit an airbag or the side of a tree?


> It's happened plenty of times in cars with just hitting a bad bump causing
> the sensors to trigger. I'm not willing to take a chance of losing
> control of a vehicle because some sensor wrongly thinks it should deploy
> an airbag.

Have you disconnected your auto airbags? You may be 100% correct, you may
be 100% wrong. You are, however, condemning a product you just don't know
much about. Why not keep an open mind until you do know?
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

"Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Go back and read what I wrote. I asked a question about what would happen
> if it discharged when it shouldn't. This isn't as much of an issue in a
> car, as you have a seat back that you would get pushed back onto. On a
> motorcycle, you may or may not have a seat back. Also having your hands
> ripped from the handlebars, especially if one is knocked loose while
> another is still grasping, can cause an accident on it's own. This isn't
> near as much a problem in a car if an airbag should go off while driving
> down the road.

I read what you wrote. You have legitimate questions, but I'm sure the
engineers have considered this. You aren't making assumptions based on
nothing are you? As I stated, neither of us knows how this works yet so we
should not condemn what we don't know. The air bag is to cushion your body
as you travel forward after impact of the bike to another object. By
limiting the size of it the bag would not push far enough to push you back
and away from the handlebars. The bag is a barrier, not a projectile aimed
at the back of the bike.

On 9/18/2005 11:56 AM Edwin Pawlowski mumbled something about the following:
> "Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>Go back and read what I wrote. I asked a question about what would happen
>>if it discharged when it shouldn't. This isn't as much of an issue in a
>>car, as you have a seat back that you would get pushed back onto. On a
>>motorcycle, you may or may not have a seat back. Also having your hands
>>ripped from the handlebars, especially if one is knocked loose while
>>another is still grasping, can cause an accident on it's own. This isn't
>>near as much a problem in a car if an airbag should go off while driving
>>down the road.
>
>
> I read what you wrote. You have legitimate questions, but I'm sure the
> engineers have considered this. You aren't making assumptions based on
> nothing are you? As I stated, neither of us knows how this works yet so we
> should not condemn what we don't know. The air bag is to cushion your body
> as you travel forward after impact of the bike to another object. By
> limiting the size of it the bag would not push far enough to push you back
> and away from the handlebars. The bag is a barrier, not a projectile aimed
> at the back of the bike.
>
>
Have you ever been hit by an airbag? Do you ride a motorcycle? Getting
hit by an airbag will knock your hands away from the steering wheel in a
car. Doing the same thing unexpectedly on a motorcycle when not
involved in a crash can be deadly. Don't think it can't happen? It's
happened plenty of times in cars with just hitting a bad bump causing
the sensors to trigger. I'm not willing to take a chance of losing
control of a vehicle because some sensor wrongly thinks it should deploy
an airbag.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

This thread reminds me of the proposal of a MA state lawmaker who
proposed making seatbelts on motorcycles mandatory in that state a few
years ago. THAT proposal was quickly dropped!!

John

If it's at all like automobiles, the bags are not very effective without
the use of a seatbelt to hold the driver in a position where his forward
momentum will be directed toward the bag. On a bike without a belt, I
would think the bag would just be something to bounce off as you fly
through the air.

Art



David wrote:

> Art and Diane wrote:
>
>> Sell this feature on bikes to people who won't wear helmets? Where's
>> the logic to that?
>>
>> Art
>>
>>
>>
>> David wrote:
>>
>>> http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>>>
>>>
>>> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that
>>> some day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon
>>> upon us--early next year according to Honda.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
> It's a passive restraint. Actually, there IS logic in that. Riders
> without helmets are in more need of a cushion during an accident.
>
> dave

I remember reading an ariticle (back in the mid eighties I think)
about a motorcycle airbag SUIT. That's right, a rubber suit with
inflatable airbags that would deploy if the rider left the bike. It
was attached to the bike with a tether and activated if the tether
broke or was disconnected from the motorcycle. When it inflated the
rider looked like the Michelin tire man. Testing showed that it would
be very effective but for some reason :) it never caught on as an
alternative to leather.


--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]

"Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> And what do you think would happen at 75MPH with the airbag? It's only
> good for approx 30 MPH according to Honda. I've already gone head on with
> a car at 30+ MPH on a bike, and if I had been held down onto the bike, I
> would have been part of the car, instead of laying several feet away from
> the wreck.

Or with a properly sized and deployed bag, you may have been slowed down
considerably for less impact. Neither one of us knows that though.

>
> And what do you think would happen if that airbag deployed when hitting a
> bad dip or bump? How much force is needed to deploy it, and where must
> the bike hit the object to deploy it? The front wheel is the leading most
> edge on a motorcycle, and can get a fair amount of force applied to it
> without ever hitting another object.

Wow, the guys at Honda probably never thought about that. We should tell
them.

What I don't understand is how you can condem a piece of equipment when
you've never seen one, do not know how it works, do not know what
circumstances deploy it, have no idea of its capabilities. Last year I had
a discussion with a neighbor about seat belts. He still insisted he is
safer without them because he does not want to get trapped in the car. Just
a couple of days after this, there was an accident on the highway near us.
The driver was thrown from the car, slid on the road and then the car spun
around over top of her killing her. He wears his belt now.

I still see a lot of riders with no helmets because they are safer also.
Just like the kid down the street that has been in a nursing home for the
past 12 years.

Your bike, your body, do as you please.

Robert Bonomi wrote:


>>
>>pedestrians will be next, Leon. <g>
>
>
>
> Not directly related, but see:
> <http://www.hsegroup.com/hse/text/cowboy.htm>
>
LOL! Thanks for the link, Robert.

Dave

On 9/11/2005 8:52 AM George mumbled something about the following:
> "Dick" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>I've never been without at least one motorcycle, usually more for the last
>>45 yrs. and have never even considered laying it down to avoid a
>>collision. Maybe I would if I was going to run into the side of an 18
>>wheeler and I thought I might be able to slide under but even then you
>>usually high side and go flipping. The brakes and rubber tires on the
>>pavement will slow you up a whole lot faster than steel on the bike or you
>>tumbling thru the air.
>> Dick
>
>
> I guess you guys are using another definition of laydown from the one used
> here in Motorcycle Safety. Laydown is a graceful way of accepting the
> inevitable, not an attempt to avoid it. Rather than ride the bike into a
> obstacle, or attempt to stay seated if it is at an unrecoverable angle, you
> use the laydown to get clear of it by remaining behind, not under.
>
> It's the difference between a three-point heels - ass - head parachute
> landing versus the PLF, which distributes the momentum along the less
> vulnerable portions of your anatomy.
>
>
Here in Motorcycle Safety? MSF doesn't encourage a laydown for ANY
reason, and MSF considers a laydown as lowsiding.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

On 9/10/2005 2:53 AM John Emmons mumbled something about the following:
> It seems to me that if you've got time to "lay it down" you've got time to
> get out of the way.
>
> Course I only ride 10 or 20 thousand miles a year...
>

lightweight :) 25k avg for me, and some of the guys I ride with on
occassions ask me when I'm going to start riding my bike (they avg
between 40k and 80k a year).

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

On 9/9/2005 12:04 AM Robatoy mumbled something about the following:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> David <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Riders
>>without helmets are in more need of a cushion during an accident.
>
>
> Riders without helmets need their heads examined.

I had my head examined and there was nothing in it.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

On 9/18/2005 10:03 AM George mumbled something about the following:
> "Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Slowed down? The bike was buried into the car. Had I been held to the
>>bike, I would have been buried in the car along with the bike. That I DO
>>KNOW for sure.
>>
>
> You suffer from a serious lack of knowledge. The chain of posts provides
> ample evidence that you neither understand the concept or operation of an
> airbag, the concept of pushing away (laying down) from a heavy piece of
> metal nor do you care to learn.
>
> Circumstances may protect you, regardless. You will, of course be
> ungrateful.
>
The chain of posts suggests that the airbag would hold me onto the bike,
It also suggests it would slow me down. I'm not the one making those
claims, I'm challenging them. You, OTOH are being ignorant of what is
actually transpiring.


--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

Leon wrote:

> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>>
>>I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
>>day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon us--early
>>next year according to Honda.
>>
>>Dave
>
>
> I saw that too.
>
> I guess Honda wants to still be able to sell motorcycles in California next
> year. ;~)
>
>
pedestrians will be next, Leon. <g>

Dave

Art and Diane wrote:

> Sell this feature on bikes to people who won't wear helmets? Where's
> the logic to that?
>
> Art
>
>
>
> David wrote:
>
>> http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>>
>>
>> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that
>> some day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
>> us--early next year according to Honda.
>>
>> Dave
>
>
It's a passive restraint. Actually, there IS logic in that. Riders
without helmets are in more need of a cushion during an accident.

dave

On 9/18/2005 2:08 AM hoot mumbled something about the following:
> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:15:34 -0400, Odinn <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On 9/9/2005 3:40 AM Upscale mumbled something about the following:
>>
>>>"Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:design-
>>>
>>>
>>>>Mr. Self made an interesting point. That bag, in a car, slams you to the
>>>>back of the seat, pinning you down. With no back, it might just knock me
>>>>AND my cooler off the bike!
>>>
>>>
>>>Maybe, but lets face it, something will have happened for the air bag to go
>>>off. If the bike is moving at the time, I'd rather be knocked off in any
>>>direction except for flying forwards. No way in hell an expanding air bag is
>>>going to knock you 100 feet in any direction which is entirely possible with
>>>a forwards ejection.
>
>
>
>
>
>>One would have to be going pretty damn fast to be slung 100 ft in an
>>accident.
>
>
> At 35Mph it would take roughly 2 seconds to travel 100 feet. Do you
> think you'd tumble for two seconds at 35Mph ?
> When i was younger i came off a bike at 60Mph and the police estimated
> i traveled nearly 50feet before i touched the ground.
> My back still aches.
>
I didn't travel anywhere near 100 ft. I might have traveled 100 ft
total if you include the upward ejection, the arc, and the downward fall.

OTOH, when I hit a deer 6 years ago doing 60 MPH, I traveled a total 216
ft, some of it sliding, some of it tumbling, very little of it in the
air. If an airbag had held me to the bike, I wouldn't be here today, as
the bike tumbled end over end a couple of times as well as rolling over
a few times. Being ejected AWAY from the bike was MUCH safer than being
held onto the bike.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

On 9/8/2005 6:57 PM Upscale mumbled something about the following:
> "Leon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>>>I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
>>>day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
>
> us--early
>
>>>next year according to Honda.
>
>
> I can see them having some value in certain type of accidents. For sudden
> bike stops like smashing into another car, if it stops the rider from flying
> 100 feet through the air, then it would be a benefit. Can't see how it being
> much of help with skids though.
>
> Of course, even though I'm not a motorcycle addict, I can see an air bag as
> lowering a bike rider's machismo.
>
>
An airbag won't stop you from catapulting when hitting a solid object.
When I went head on with a car in 1988 on my motorcycle, the rear tire
lifted off the ground ejecting me up at about a 70 degree angle. No
amount of airbag could have stopped that unless it was on top of me
instead of in front of me.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

On 9/9/2005 3:40 AM Upscale mumbled something about the following:
> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:design-
>
>>Mr. Self made an interesting point. That bag, in a car, slams you to the
>>back of the seat, pinning you down. With no back, it might just knock me
>>AND my cooler off the bike!
>
>
> Maybe, but lets face it, something will have happened for the air bag to go
> off. If the bike is moving at the time, I'd rather be knocked off in any
> direction except for flying forwards. No way in hell an expanding air bag is
> going to knock you 100 feet in any direction which is entirely possible with
> a forwards ejection.
>
>
One would have to be going pretty damn fast to be slung 100 ft in an
accident.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7
SENS(less)

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 [email protected] to reply

My father in law refused to wear seat belts. He always said that, in an
accident, he would rather be thrown clear than stay with the car. He was
fortunate to have never had to test his theory.

"Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Being ejected AWAY from the bike was MUCH safer than being
> held onto the bike.
>

It seems to me that if you've got time to "lay it down" you've got time to
get out of the way.

Course I only ride 10 or 20 thousand miles a year...

John Emmons

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> lgb wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >
> >>On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:08:30 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]>
wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>In article <[email protected]>,
> >>>"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>[tidied up]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Some senator proposed seat belts be
> >>>>required for motorcycles about 30 years ago. I guess this is for those
> >>>>who don't like seat belts.
> >>>
> >>>How incredibly stupid was THAT idea. The whole idea is to get away from
> >>>that bouncing lump of metal after a spill (and pray your leathers stay
> >>>together)
> >>
> >>
> >> I was kind of thinking that also. Why would you want to tie yourself
to
> >>a potentially spinning, rotating mass of metal that weighs more than you
do
> >>with only yourself between that metal and the pavement? [shudder]
> >>
> >
> >
> > When I bought my 1st motorcycle (50+ years ago) the dealer took me to a
> > big grassy field and had me practice laying it down and getting away
> > from it. If anyone didn't learn it to his satisfaction, they didn't get
> > a bike.
> >
> > Can you hear the insurance companies cringing?
> >
> I can just see the local Honda dealer letting you lay down a $20,000
> Gold Wing for PRACTICE! They don't even want you to fire up the engine
> until you've paid for the thing.
>
> dave

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 23:15:34 -0400, Odinn <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 9/9/2005 3:40 AM Upscale mumbled something about the following:
>> "Robatoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:design-
>>
>>>Mr. Self made an interesting point. That bag, in a car, slams you to the
>>>back of the seat, pinning you down. With no back, it might just knock me
>>>AND my cooler off the bike!
>>
>>
>> Maybe, but lets face it, something will have happened for the air bag to go
>> off. If the bike is moving at the time, I'd rather be knocked off in any
>> direction except for flying forwards. No way in hell an expanding air bag is
>> going to knock you 100 feet in any direction which is entirely possible with
>> a forwards ejection.



>One would have to be going pretty damn fast to be slung 100 ft in an
>accident.

At 35Mph it would take roughly 2 seconds to travel 100 feet. Do you
think you'd tumble for two seconds at 35Mph ?
When i was younger i came off a bike at 60Mph and the police estimated
i traveled nearly 50feet before i touched the ground.
My back still aches.

hoot.

"Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> lifted off the ground ejecting me up at about a 70 degree angle. No
> amount of airbag could have stopped that unless it was on top of me
> instead of in front of me.

I would think they would design it to do just that, maybe sort of envelop
you front and top.

In article <[email protected]>,
Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 22:10:30 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:52:25 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> > I have no idea. Maybe, some engineer has a sense of humour and designs
> >> > one that looks like a fist? A fly-swatter? A boxing glove?
> >> > Work with me here, Dave...
> >>
> >> I'm tryin, baby, I really am. There are reasons that airbags aren't
> >> perfect, but the ones you cited aren't realistic.
> >
> > It is SO like YOU to bring reality into the mix.
>
> Sorry, man. I tend to be like that, which annoys my boss and coworkers
> too, believe me.

I know the feeling... I hear the whisper "what a picky sunnuvabitch"
behind me quite often; the price you pay if you want attention to detail.

In article <[email protected]>,
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I'm sure that Honda has put quite a bit of research into
> this, it's highly unlikely it's just a spur of the moment addition, so there
> has to be some practical reasoning somewhere.

Call me cynical, but I think it has more to do with marketing than
safety.
From a practical standpoint, its effectiveness would appear, to me,
limited to a narrow range of incidents.
Mr. Self made an interesting point. That bag, in a car, slams you to the
back of the seat, pinning you down. With no back, it might just knock me
AND my cooler off the bike!

In article <[email protected]>,
Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

> Because, they'd use exactly the same bags as in a car, is that it?


I have no idea. Maybe, some engineer has a sense of humour and designs
one that looks like a fist? A fly-swatter? A boxing glove?



Work with me here, Dave...

In article <[email protected]>,
Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 15:52:25 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Because, they'd use exactly the same bags as in a car, is that it?
> >
> > I have no idea. Maybe, some engineer has a sense of humour and designs
> > one that looks like a fist? A fly-swatter? A boxing glove?
> > Work with me here, Dave...
>
> I'm tryin, baby, I really am. There are reasons that airbags aren't
> perfect, but the ones you cited aren't realistic.

It is SO like YOU to bring reality into the mix.

In article <[email protected]>, "George" <George@least>
wrote:

> The technology of an air bag is complex. Fast enough to catch, soft enough
> to cushion, but slow enough in deflation to protect the average
> individual....

I was the first car in line at a red light as some clown (coming from my
right attempting to turn into my street) turned in front of a minivan
which promptly t-boned the idiot. Right in front of me, I saw the van's
passenger-side bag explode in the old lady's face and it was gone again
that same fraction of a second. The driver's bag..I guess same deal,
because I never saw it at all, but did see the slack bit of cloth
hanging from her steering wheel... Broken collar bone, thassall.
The car which turned in front of the van was full of teen-age school
kids.
7 of them in a K-car. No bags. Lots of bruises, 5 were wearing belts,
the other two used the other 5 as bags, I guess. Remarkable little
damage.

In article <[email protected]>,
"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote:

[tidied up]

>Some senator proposed seat belts be
> required for motorcycles about 30 years ago. I guess this is for those
> who don't like seat belts.

How incredibly stupid was THAT idea. The whole idea is to get away from
that bouncing lump of metal after a spill (and pray your leathers stay
together)

In article <[email protected]>,
David <[email protected]> wrote:

[snipperized for brevity]

> pedestrians will be next, Leon. <g>
>
> Dave

<G>... side curtains on your Foster Grants?

In article <[email protected]>,
David <[email protected]> wrote:

> Riders
> without helmets are in more need of a cushion during an accident.

Riders without helmets need their heads examined.

In article <[email protected]>,
David <[email protected]> wrote:

> http://news.com.com/2061-10801_3-5855018.html?part=rss&tag=5855018&subj=news
>
> I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
> day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
> us--early next year according to Honda.
>
> Dave

The Yugoslavian carmaker Yugo developed an airbag for a motorcycle
some 25 years ago. But just like their car version, you had to blow it
up yourself.

In article <[email protected]>,
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote:

> Interesting side thought here. Assume driver is carrying a rider behind
> him and airbag goes off, what are the ripple effects upon the rider and
> subsequent effect upon the driver?

What if his passengers happens to his 350 pound sweetie? He'd be
ping-ponging for a while, eh?


Hehehehe.. the word 'ripple' just set me off.

In article <090920052254152590%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca>,
Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Mark & Juanita
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Interesting perspective from one of the survivors of Katrina:
> >
> > <http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slideshow.jsp?mode=fromshare&Uc=14ewb3ap.b147fd
> > ut
> > &Uy=nyvoby&Ux=1>
> >
> > This is a very large slide show with 197 slides, the part most applicable
> > to the above occurs near the end of the slide show where the author and his
> > friend made their way to the Superdome. They got there and encountered
> > thousands of people who had waited all night for the buses that didn't
> > come. What is of note is he and his companions reaction -- it was all gray
> > -- they didn't just resign themselves to wait with the other thousands (for
> > some very good reasons I suspect), they attempted to solve the problem
> > another way and were successful.
>
> Wow.
>
> Thanks for that link.

Homeland Security brown-shirts could have nuked the site. The pictures
are no longer available. Lest we see what their screw-ups look like.
Bastards are confiscating cameras and memory cards all over that area.
One of my closest friends (from South Florida...lost his house twice)
was there for a week working the rescue effort. Nothing but harassment
from the 'armed officials' about his taking pictures. Hell, he takes
them all over the world, wherever there is a rescue effort...First time
ever he got hassled like that. In his words: "We are now in a New
Babylon of biblical proportions."

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Lawrence Wasserman) wrote:

> I remember reading an ariticle (back in the mid eighties I think)
> about a motorcycle airbag SUIT. That's right, a rubber suit with
> inflatable airbags that would deploy if the rider left the bike. It
> was attached to the bike with a tether and activated if the tether
> broke or was disconnected from the motorcycle. When it inflated the
> rider looked like the Michelin tire man. Testing showed that it would
> be very effective but for some reason :) it never caught on as an
> alternative to leather.

I tried, and tried.. but can't get the image out of my mind.
They abandoned the tests when a test-rider triggered the device bounced
over the median into the path of an on-coming truck, bouncing him into a
subdivision where he hit a flag-pole whipping him back into the path of
a...... anyway...he was never found.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
...whaddaya think? Too much Wiley???

In article <[email protected]>,
"Upscale" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > You crash on a bike, you ARE going to hit the ground. How does an
> > airbag help there?
>
> Yup, but it's the speed that you hit the ground that is important. Of
> course, flying as little as five feet is enough to break your neck.

It always amazes me when a rider loses his bike in Formula style road
racing.. at well over 100 MPH in most cases, takes a skid on the tarmac,
stands up, dusts himself off, walks over to the bike, gives it a kick in
frustration and walks back to the pit lane.

It's all about the leathers and being in good shape.

It makes me sick to see a young couple on a crotch-rocket blowing by me
at insane speeds wearing nothing but t-shirts, shorts and sneakers....
then again, somebody will make good use of the internal organs.

In article <[email protected]>, "George" <George@least>
wrote:

> We were met at the door of the ED by the boys from the psych ward, complete
> with their set of leather restraints....

ROTF.... ohh that's rich.. Made my day.

In article <080920051944407624%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca>,
Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:

> Go read this. Now.
> <http://www.ejectejecteject.com/archives/000129.html>

Powerful stuff. Thanks a bunch for that.

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> George wrote:
>> "David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> >
>> > So many people have seen "Vacation", they think a deployed air bag
>> > stays
>> > inflated. :)
>>
>> Or don't think that hitting the bag or the bag hitting them is the same
>> as
>> any other obstacle unless the bag were already soft and deflating on
>> impact.
>>
>> The technology of an air bag is complex. Fast enough to catch, soft
>> enough
>> to cushion, but slow enough in deflation to protect the average
>> individual....
>
> I've laid bikes down, usually with nothing more than bruises. The one
> crash I did have was in the woods, where a kid was doing donuts in the
> middle of the trail, after a drop off (blind) jump. He hit me head on.
> I rose up under the crossbar braced handlebars, and whanged my thighs
> hard enough to tear the ligaments on both sides of my groin.
>
> That's it for my experience with a motorcycle head-on, for which I'm
> grateful (I had the torn ligaments, the kid had a broken leg). I cannot
> see how an airbag will work properly in a great many conditions,
> though, as there must be some protection (force?) downward to maintain
> a seat on the bike, which, after impact will be toppling to one side or
> another, at whatever speed remains.
>
> That leaves the rider, and any passenger, open to the joys of having a
> 700-900 pound motorcycle topple on him, which I guess is a possiblity
> anyway. In a couple of instances, I laid the bike down on the pavement,
> and let it slide away from me--but I never rode a Hardly Ableson or any
> of those half ton monsters where not getting out from under means
> auto-amputation.
>
> It should be interesting. I would bet it comes out as an option, which
> means it is almost certain to die the same death that seatbelts did in
> '57 Fords.

they showed crash pictures of this on the news last night.

it's not an option. will be on all goldwings next year. inflated, it appears
to be shaped in such a way that you aren't launched over it, but held sort
of under an edge of it. it's only good in up to 31 mph crash. it will only
be useful in a head-on collision where you're still vertical (ie left
turners in front of you) which are the majority of highway accidents the
last time i looked. if you're struck anywhere else besides the front wheel
or you hit something not head on, or the bike is on it's side before you
hit, it would appear to be pretty useless.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> You crash on a bike, you ARE going to hit the ground. How does an
> airbag help there?

Yup, but it's the speed that you hit the ground that is important. Of
course, flying as little as five feet is enough to break your neck.

"Odinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
> No thanks. I'll take my changes with a get-off instead of an airbag
> holding me down onto a bike.

Good luck. Cushioning of a well designed airbag would be far more effective
than flying 75 mph into a solid mass. Just curious, do you wear seatbelts
in a car or would you rather take your chances getting tossed out the door?

lgb wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
>>On Fri, 09 Sep 2005 00:08:30 -0400, Robatoy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>"Charlie Self" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>[tidied up]
>>>
>>>
>>>>Some senator proposed seat belts be
>>>>required for motorcycles about 30 years ago. I guess this is for those
>>>>who don't like seat belts.
>>>
>>>How incredibly stupid was THAT idea. The whole idea is to get away from
>>>that bouncing lump of metal after a spill (and pray your leathers stay
>>>together)
>>
>>
>> I was kind of thinking that also. Why would you want to tie yourself to
>>a potentially spinning, rotating mass of metal that weighs more than you do
>>with only yourself between that metal and the pavement? [shudder]
>>
>
>
> When I bought my 1st motorcycle (50+ years ago) the dealer took me to a
> big grassy field and had me practice laying it down and getting away
> from it. If anyone didn't learn it to his satisfaction, they didn't get
> a bike.
>
> Can you hear the insurance companies cringing?
>
I can just see the local Honda dealer letting you lay down a $20,000
Gold Wing for PRACTICE! They don't even want you to fire up the engine
until you've paid for the thing.

dave

The toe activated neck-tie airbag?
-Brian

"David" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>>I never thought I live to see the day. I've joked in the past that some
>>>day they'll have airbags for motorcycles. That day is soon upon
>>>us--early next year according to Honda.
>>>
>>>Dave
>>
>>
>> I saw that too.
>>
>> I guess Honda wants to still be able to sell motorcycles in California
>> next year. ;~)
> pedestrians will be next, Leon. <g>
>
> Dave