(This apparently didn't make it through the first time, so I'm reposting
it. I apologize if it
is a duplicate.)
Here are some additional references on dog bites, dog bite fatalities
and pit bulls, as
well as a final rant.
The CDC listing of pit bulls as a 'dangerous breed'
-- doesn't exist. The CDC lists no dog breeds as specifically dangerous
and the
comments of one of the main authors of the CDC study on dog bite
fatalities (see next
item) suggests strongly she finds the whole idea erroneous.
According to Dr. Gail Golab, co-author of the study and Assistant
Director of the
AVMA Education and Research Division. ". . . the breeds responsible for
human
fatalities have varied over time. Since 1975, dogs belonging to more
than 30 breeds
have been responsible for fatal attacks on people, including
Dachshunds, Golden Retrievers, a Yorkshire Terrier, and a Labrador
Retriever,"
A CDC study of dog bite fatalities and breed-related issues.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dogbreeds.pdf
This is the mother study -- the most comprehensive study of the subject
I can find. I'll
discuss it later in more detail as it relates to pit bulls.
A discussion of dog bites (as distinct from fatalities) in the US
http://www.healthypet.com/library_view.aspx?ID=16&sid=1
A detailed study of dog bites in Denver in 1991
http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/duip/dog3.pdf
Only one city but some statistical analysis. It's interesting to note
that the most
common biting breeds were German Shepherds and Chows.
Article on the Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association
on
'dangerous' breeds.
http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/nov00/s111500c.asp
Short form: There effectively aren't any that are dangerous enough to be
restricted or
banned. This is a conclusion supported by the US humane society, the AKC
(which doesn't recognize pit bulls) and most other responsible groups.
Information from a book on fatal dog attacks
http://www.fataldogattacks.com/
Quote from the web page: "Examination of newspaper archival records
dating
back to the 1950's and 1960's reveal the same types of severe and fatal
attacks
occurring then as today. The only difference is the breed of dog
responsible for
these events. A random study of 74 severe and fatal attacks reported in
the
Evening Bulletin (Philadelphia, PA) from 1964-1968, show no severe or
fatal
attacks by Rottweilers and only one attack attributed to a Pit-Bull-type
dog.
The dogs involved in most of these incidents were the breeds that were
popular
at the time."
I find this particularly significant because during that period pit
bulls were, while not all
that common, not all that rare as urban dogs in the US. This figures in
the
discussion of the CDC study below.
A San Francisco SPCA article on dog aggression, causes and cures. Note
that it
doesn't mention breed as a factor.
http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/aggression.shtml#1
A UC Davis page devoted to articles, mostly from professional journals,
on dog
aggression.
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAB/aggression.html
(I was particularly taken by the study that found a lot of aggression in
Cocker
Spaniels.) UCD is, of course, one of the country's leading veterinary
schools. Again,
notice that breed gets relatively little attention in the articles.
THE CDC STUDY AND PIT BULL FATALITIES
Having read the CDC study on dog bite fatalities more carefully, I
believe it
considerably overstates the dangers of pit bulls because it fails to
properly identify the
dogs involved in many of the fatal attacks.
Before we look at why this is so, let's look at the Top 10 'killer'
breeds in the US
according to the study. They are
"Pit bull type"
Rottweiler
German Shepherd
"Husky type"
Malamute
Doberman
Chow
Great Dane
St. Bernard
In fact this is pretty much a list of the most popular large dog breeds
in the United
States. (The pit bull gets honorary 'large dog' status because of its
extreme strength.)
You'll note that both Great Danes and St. Bernards make the list of top
killer dogs.
There is no commonality of purpose among these breeds, which might
indicate an
in-born tendency to aggression. Some of these are guard dogs, some are
working dogs
and some are fighting dogs (including the Chow.) The only thing they
have in
common is size and that they are popular breeds. The conclusions are
that the danger
of a dog killing someone is related to its size more than anything else
and what the
dog was originally bred for is largely irrelevant.
(In this context it's interesting to note a dog which is _not_ on the
list of killers. The
Bull Mastiff. Bull Mastiffs were bred at the end of the 19th century as
English
gamekeepers' dogs to attack and bring down poachers. In the early 20th
century a
popular rural sport in England was to give a man a running start into
the woods and
then send a Bull Mastiff in after him. The object was to see how long it
took the dog to
bring down the man. If there was ever a breed that should be dangerous,
the
Bull Mastiff is it. Actually they're 110-pound pussycats. They're also
not nearly as
common as the dogs that are on the top 10 list.)
The second thing to note is that while the "pit bull type" dogs top the
list over the
20-year period the study covers, the actual leader tends to vary from
year to year. In
1979-1980, for instance, Great Danes led the list.
Now let's look at why the study probably greatly exaggerates the danger
of pit bulls.
First, note that the study doesn't talk about 'pit bulls', it talks
about 'pit bull type'
dogs.
Now even if you accurately identified all the dogs on the list, 'pit
bull type' dogs (and
these are purebreds) include five or six different breeds, including pit
bulls, English
bull terriers, Staffordshire terriers and others. The only other kind of
dog lumped in this
fashion is the 'husky type' -- which means that true pit bulls are
ovverrepresented
even under ideal conditions.
But conditions aren't ideal and a large number of those identifications
are very likely
erroneous. As I've pointed out before, the pit bull is uniquely suited
to
misidentification. In fact any medium-sized, short-haired, short-muzzled
dog that
attacks someone is likely to be identified as a pit bull. This doesn't
really matter to the
responding officers, ER doctors or others treating a dog bite victim and
they aren't
going to spend too much time identifying the breed of dog. However such
misidentification produces a bias in the study that doesn't apply to
more readily
identifiable dogs.
This suspicion is reinforced by the year to year breakdown of
fatalities. In the last five
years of the study (1993-1998) pit bull fatalities drop off sharply and
Rottweilers
replace pit bulls as the most dangerous dogs. In fact in that period
Rottweilers caused
twice as many deaths as pit bulls.
Pit bull fatalities spike strongly in the years 1983 to 1990. This
coincides with the
period when pit bulls burst strongly on the American consciousness as
dangerous dogs.
In other words the time was ripe for media hysteria over pit bulls and
that is exactly
what you would expect to produce erroneous identifications -- especially
since a
great many people had never seen a pit bull in that period. They just
knew they were
dangerous dogs. Here the Philadelphia study is also relevant. Over a
period of
decades there was only one fatality involving a pit bull type dog. Pit
bulls were around
in that period, they were just obscure.
But the real 'smoking gun' is that pit bull fatalities decline sharply
after 1990. Yet this is
a period when pit bulls enjoyed an unprecedented growth in popularity.
Although
it is impossible to come by accurate statistics because the breed is not
AKC
recognized and the huge majority of pit bulls are not registered, it is
certainly true that
there
are more pit bulls now than ever. At the very least the numbers of pit
bulls in the US
did not drop significantly. Yet the fatality statistics drop as the
numbers of dogs
grow.
The third peculiarity comes when we look at the number of fatal attacks
involving
mixed breed dogs. Here pit bull mixes rank third behind wolf hybrids and
mixed
breeds. Now assuming that the identifications are accurate, and assuming
that there is
such a thing as a 'dangerous breed', you would expect the hybrids to
show the
same dangerous tendencies, albeit less strongly. Yet they don't. On the
other hand, if
the dogs were being misidentified, this is exactly what you would
expect.
You could object that mixed breed dogs are much more common than pit
bull mixes so
they would naturally cause more fatalities under the theory the more
popular the
dog, the more attacks. That might be true. However the argument breaks
down for
wolf hybrids, which caused the most mix-breed fatalities, because they
are relatively
uncommon.
But enough. Whether the CDC study is accurate or not, I think the
evidence
unequivocally demonstrates that pit bulls are not the 'four legged
assault weapons' they
were characterized as in the post that got me into this thread. I would
further submit
that the evidence shows that pit bulls are not an especially dangerous
breed of dog.
As I said at the beginning of this thread, Pit Bulls are not a dog for
everyone. A pit bull
owner has a responsibility to socialize and train his pet carefully and
to practice
the other basics of responsible dog ownership. If you don't the
consequences can get
ugly. Nor do I expect everyone to warm to them the way I have.
I have found the Pit Bulls I have known to be friendly, gregarious,
fun-loving animals
who made superb pets. I don't expect everyone to agree with that
evaluation and I
know there are a lot of Pit Bulls who don't meet those criteria. But
they are most
certainly not the dogs from hell and as a breed they deserve better than
their
reputation.
--RC
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> >Second, it should be obvious to any thinking person that many practices
> >undertaken by dog owners are proof that those people are thumbing their
> >noses at their neighbors.
> As a thinking person and a dog owner, I take exception to that
> generalization! It is certainly true that there are inconsiderate dog
> owners as there are inconsiderate cat owners and inconsiderate people
> with no pets. None of those can be generalized.
OK, Alexy, let's clean out all the text and pose a simple respone to what
you just said.
Think about dog owners who walk their dogs. Forget that some clean up after
their dogs and some don't. Focus only on the fact that these people allow
their dogs to use other peoples' property as toilets.
With me so far? I'll leave lots of white space so you have time to think.
Ready?
Good.
Next: Let's say you have children. They have a sand box they love to play
in. Now, a mommy or daddy comes along with a baby in a stroller. They stop
in front of your house. You see the parent poking around the baby's diaper.
Baby has apparently taken a dump. The parent removes the diaper. It must be
a real stinker because they toss it into your kid's sand box.
You accost them and yell at them, but they tell you "Yeah....but I rolled it
up and fastened it with the little tape things!"
In other words:
1) They've given you a reason that complete nonsense.
2) They informed you that your property is, in fact, their property.
What's your response to such a person?
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 21:31:33 GMT, Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Irrelevant. The law does not recognize animals (or, indeed, some humans) as
> capable of differentiating between right and wrong, and thus they are not
> responsible, under the law, for their actions. The owner of a dog is liable,
> under the law, for the dog's behavior.
Yes. Interesting though, that you can't get arrested for anything in
particular if you're drunk and riding a horse. Our local town drunk
(now deceased, guess how?) used to ride his horse down to the bar, get
_very_ drunk, and then the horse would take them home. I asked the sheriff
about it (off-the-record, he's a friend of mine) what the deal was, and
as long has he didn't get obnoxious or something, there wasn't really a
problem. Horse was "driving", after all, he was just along for the ride.
The other town drunk who does the same with his tractor, however, is
definately violating something.
So, even though an animal can't be a criminal, it can turn what would
have been criminal behavior into something that's not.
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 17:26:25 -0400, J. Clarke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that criticizing
> the choices of others?
I keep seeing you post things of this nature; what makes you think all
the people you use that on _aren't_ volunteering for worthwhile causes?
On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:56:24 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> "Dave Hinz" wrote in message
>
>> So, even though an animal can't be a criminal, it can turn what would
>> have been criminal behavior into something that's not.
>
> Now _that_ is an interesting observation ... with a myriad of traps and
> pitfalls, but I like the concept. Some inventive criminal mind should be
> able to use that to advantage.
Well, to be fair, the Sheriff in our county is a "regular guy" rather than
a politician, so he's able to use actual logic and stuff rather than
basing police decisions on what is politically driven or something.
Basically it went from a potential drunk-driving problem waiting to
happen, to a "public drunkenness" thing...but, the guy wasn't an
obnoxious drunk, he was a happy drunk & didn't cause any problems.
Nothing to be gained by dragging someone in that isn't causing any
problems for anyone (except himself, but that wasn't gonna change anyway).
That having been said, if someone's dog bites, the owner is responsible
for it, the dog is not. So, an animal can eliminate a criminal act but
not be responsible for same. Interesting...
Your law, if enforced, would lead to more accidents. Where there is local
access to the road, it's often best to plan on the right lane being just
that - access. It's for accelerating/decelerating and turning. Left lane
is the through lane.
Real problem with left lane is the impatience of those who want to get to
their accident in a hurry. They speed into your mirror as you pass, climb
up your ass so close that in several Southern states they'd have to marry
you, then, before you can safely, let alone courteously enter the right
lane, they do a duck in, causing the overtaken vehicle to brake, then cut
left, forcing you to do the same in their hurry to get to the left.
Some of these inconsiderate nincompoops jump into the right lane as they
speed toward a screeching halt at an obviously red or soon to be signal,
thus blocking the three or four folks who could have gone right on red.
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Try driving the speed limit in the left lane of a four lane in many
states.
>
> While it is certainly against common sense, courtesy, and commonly
> accepted "rules of the road" to drive in the left lane when not
> passing, is it really against the law in some states? I wish it were
> against the law and enforced in more states.
> --
I guess you missed the words "local access."
Other than that, there are, as mentioned often _two_ hogs contesting. The
one overtaking, and the idiot behind who thinks that menacing from the rear
is the way to get the "left-lane hog" to do things his way.
Believe me, I've been to a _lot_ of accidents in over 20 years in EMS.
"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:B%[email protected]...
> "George" <george@least> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Your law, if enforced, would lead to more accidents. Where there is
local
> > access to the road, it's often best to plan on the right lane being just
> > that - access. It's for accelerating/decelerating and turning. Left
lane
> > is the through lane.
>
> In cities, you're right about which lane should be used in what way, and
the
> fact that perhaps 90% of drivers don't realize that is a major source of
> accidents. But, take a highway like the NY State Thruway in Western NY,
> where there's often 30 miles between exits. That's where being a left-lane
> hog is inexcusable. Unless you're a cop, it's not your job to decide who's
> going fast enough. If someone wants to pass and you can move over without
> creating danger of any kind, you move over. Period.
>
ws.
>
> Those of us who've actually seen (or been in) accidents at highway speeds
> know that you should keep 5 car lengths per 10 mph, even though that's
> difficult. On open highway, I will do almost anything to stay a mile from
> the living dead who drive in clusters, talking on the phone with one hand,
> driving with their knees, and chokin' their chickens with the other hand.
>
>
Actually, I'm not looking for a dog, unless my source of paper gun range
targets goes out of business. But what you said is true.
"Robert Galloway" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Unless you're really into the status thing or planning to breed, get a
> mixed breed from the pound. "Mutts" generally have fewer of the kinds
> of problems you mention (hip dysplasia), you're harvesting one from the
> unwanted collumn and allowing it to avoid being destroyed as opposed to
> helping to feed the production end of the industry and you'll had just
> as good a pet and companion.
>
> OMO
>
> bob g.
>
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
> > "alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Adam wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
> >>>>news:[email protected]:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'm now
> >>>>>spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about
> >>>>>what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night,
> >>>>>too!)
> >>>>
> >>>>What a useless challenge, would your time be
> >>>>better spent volunteering for something?
> >>>
> >>>Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that
> >
> > criticizing
> >
> >>>the choices of others?
> >>
> >> Read the thread. He was spoofing Kanter's criticism of someone's time
> >>spent dealing with pet issues.
> >
> >
> > Ah....but there's a difference. It's absurd to take an animal which is
> > designed to roam and hunt, keep it indoors or confined to a yard, and
not
> > expect it to behave in ways which (almost) without exception make it a
> > headache to society, or worse.
> >
> > Or sillier: "We're thinking of getting a golden retriever, but I
understand
> > they all end up with hip problems". Dumb phuques.
> >
> >
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 17:23:34 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:24:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >Statistics are meaningless. The solution for dog bites is simple: The
>owners
>> >of offending dogs will have their eyelids fastened open, perhaps with
>> >surgical tape, but preferably with staples. They will then be seated 6"
>from
>> >the table on which their "pets" will be killed, and forced to watch. When
>> >the deed is done, the owners will be taken directly to prison where they
>> >will be charged in the same way as if they had attacked the victim
>> >themselves. In a perfect world, they'd be placed in a cell with a very
>> >phuked up dog they'd never met before and doused with beef blood.
>> >Unfortunately, the world's not perfect yet.
>>
>> Ok, you may need some ritalin or something... I think taking loose
>> dogs to the pound is quite sufficent, providing repeat offenders are
>> not allowed to simply come get the dog back.
>>
>
>Ritalin? :-) That's for people who can't stay focused on one subject. I'm
>TOTALLY focused.
>
>You know, there are instances when dogs bite in the presence of their
>owners, and others where the dog is off on its own solo adventure. Either
>way, it's easily preventable by the owner, but the owner has explicitly
>chosen NOT to prevent the attack. With me so far?
>
>Since it's easy to prevent, but was NOT prevented, the owner has shown
>INTENT. You probably don't agree with this, but the law does. It's called
>criminal negligence, and the theory exists only because it's impossible to
>prove that a person had intent. If we could get away with calling certain
>crimes intentional, we would.
>
>You probably still don't agree with this. So: Put an infant in the bath tub,
>walk away, pop open a beer and watch TV for 1/2 hour. Later, your lawyer
>will explain the obvious: You knew perfectly well about the likelihood of
>the baby drowning, which it did. Since you knew, but walked away, the jury
>will assume (correctly) that you intended for the baby to die, even if you
>did not push its head under the water. You may not be charged with murder,
>but you will be charged with some level of criminal negligence.
>
>Back to the dog that bites: Since the owner showed intent, it's not enough
>to say to him "Bad owner. No more dogs for you".
>
There is one obvious flaw in this line of reasoning.
The dog has intent also.
It's been a long struggle to keep my dogs in the yard. they'll dig way
down to get under a fence....
But yes, it is my responsibility to do so.
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 21:31:33 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>There is one obvious flaw in this line of reasoning.
>>
>>The dog has intent also.
>
>Irrelevant. The law does not recognize animals (or, indeed, some humans) as
>capable of differentiating between right and wrong, and thus they are not
>responsible, under the law, for their actions. The owner of a dog is liable,
>under the law, for the dog's behavior.
but the law is at best theory.
the dog's will to roam the neighborhood is very real.
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >Or sillier: "We're thinking of getting a golden retriever, but I
understand
> >they all end up with hip problems". Dumb phuques.
>
> Yes, and accurate description of anyone who would think that. My
> Golden certainly never had hip problems in her 14 years.
Actually, I was referring to ignorance of the idea that when breeding is
done by amateurs, you sometimes end up with wacky results.
"Doug Miller" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:
>
> >There is one obvious flaw in this line of reasoning.
> >
> >The dog has intent also.
>
> Irrelevant. The law does not recognize animals (or, indeed, some humans)
as
> capable of differentiating between right and wrong, and thus they are not
> responsible, under the law, for their actions. The owner of a dog is
liable,
> under the law, for the dog's behavior.
Whether the law specifically acknowledges intent in an animal or not, it
certainly leaves room for interpretation. I'll estimate that one out of
three times I hear about a dog attack on the news, in cases where the cops
arrive when things are still "hot", the cops shoot the dog(s). Apparently,
*they* believe the dogs have intent, and I've never heard of the cops
getting hassled about it.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 21:31:33 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> wrote:
>>
>>>There is one obvious flaw in this line of reasoning.
>>>
>>>The dog has intent also.
>>
>>Irrelevant. The law does not recognize animals (or, indeed, some humans) as
>>capable of differentiating between right and wrong, and thus they are not
>>responsible, under the law, for their actions. The owner of a dog is liable,
>>under the law, for the dog's behavior.
>
>
>but the law is at best theory.
Nonsense. Violate it, and you will discover that what you believe to be
mere "theory" is in fact intensely practical.
>
>the dog's will to roam the neighborhood is very real.
Yes, of course it is. Thank you for helping me to make my point. It is the
responsibility of the *owner* to confine or otherwise restrain the animal so
that it does not pose a threat to the neighborhood. If the owner fails to do
so, and the dog harms someone, it is the *owner* who is liable.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
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"Andy Dingley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:24:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The owners
> >of offending dogs will have their eyelids fastened open, perhaps with
> >surgical tape, but preferably with staples. They will then be seated 6"
from
> >the table on which their "pets" will be killed, and forced to watch.
>
> Yes, but we tried that with Alex
Clockwork Orange?
"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Your law, if enforced, would lead to more accidents. Where there is local
> access to the road, it's often best to plan on the right lane being just
> that - access. It's for accelerating/decelerating and turning. Left lane
> is the through lane.
In cities, you're right about which lane should be used in what way, and the
fact that perhaps 90% of drivers don't realize that is a major source of
accidents. But, take a highway like the NY State Thruway in Western NY,
where there's often 30 miles between exits. That's where being a left-lane
hog is inexcusable. Unless you're a cop, it's not your job to decide who's
going fast enough. If someone wants to pass and you can move over without
creating danger of any kind, you move over. Period.
If you observe carefully, you might notice the following: Many people drive
like "X". For "X", fill in any animal you like which congregates in herds
with the hope that the lion (meaning "police") will nail someone else. You
see these people driving 65 mph in tight clusters, which is outrageously
dangerous, even if they observe the "one car length per 10 mph" tailgating
laws.
Those of us who've actually seen (or been in) accidents at highway speeds
know that you should keep 5 car lengths per 10 mph, even though that's
difficult. On open highway, I will do almost anything to stay a mile from
the living dead who drive in clusters, talking on the phone with one hand,
driving with their knees, and chokin' their chickens with the other hand.
In article <[email protected]>, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 21:31:33 GMT, Doug Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Irrelevant. The law does not recognize animals (or, indeed, some humans) as
>> capable of differentiating between right and wrong, and thus they are not
>> responsible, under the law, for their actions. The owner of a dog is liable,
>> under the law, for the dog's behavior.
>
>Yes. Interesting though, that you can't get arrested for anything in
>particular if you're drunk and riding a horse. Our local town drunk
>(now deceased, guess how?) used to ride his horse down to the bar, get
>_very_ drunk, and then the horse would take them home. I asked the sheriff
>about it (off-the-record, he's a friend of mine) what the deal was, and
>as long has he didn't get obnoxious or something, there wasn't really a
>problem. Horse was "driving", after all, he was just along for the ride.
>
>The other town drunk who does the same with his tractor, however, is
>definately violating something.
>
>So, even though an animal can't be a criminal, it can turn what would
>have been criminal behavior into something that's not.
There, we get into the reason that we have laws and jails in the first place:
to protect society from those whose unwillingness to abide by societal norms
places the rest of society in jeopardy. While the hazards posed by a drunk at
the wheel of a car are both obvious and serious, a drunk on horseback poses
very little discernible hazard to anyone besides himself. Hence the former
behavior is criminalized, and the latter is not.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Adam wrote:
> >
> >> "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
> >> news:[email protected]:
> >>
> >>> I'm now
> >>> spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about
> >>> what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night,
> >>> too!)
> >>
> >> What a useless challenge, would your time be
> >> better spent volunteering for something?
> >
> >Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that
criticizing
> >the choices of others?
> Read the thread. He was spoofing Kanter's criticism of someone's time
> spent dealing with pet issues.
Ah....but there's a difference. It's absurd to take an animal which is
designed to roam and hunt, keep it indoors or confined to a yard, and not
expect it to behave in ways which (almost) without exception make it a
headache to society, or worse.
Or sillier: "We're thinking of getting a golden retriever, but I understand
they all end up with hip problems". Dumb phuques.
Statistics are meaningless. The solution for dog bites is simple: The owners
of offending dogs will have their eyelids fastened open, perhaps with
surgical tape, but preferably with staples. They will then be seated 6" from
the table on which their "pets" will be killed, and forced to watch. When
the deed is done, the owners will be taken directly to prison where they
will be charged in the same way as if they had attacked the victim
themselves. In a perfect world, they'd be placed in a cell with a very
phuked up dog they'd never met before and doused with beef blood.
Unfortunately, the world's not perfect yet.
Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 17:26:25 -0400, J. Clarke <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that
>> criticizing the choices of others?
>
> I keep seeing you post things of this nature; what makes you think all
> the people you use that on _aren't_ volunteering for worthwhile
> causes?
>
If they were, they wouldn't be spending time here? :o)
"Dave Hinz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 8 Oct 2004 16:56:24 -0500, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > "Dave Hinz" wrote in message
> >
> >> So, even though an animal can't be a criminal, it can turn what would
> >> have been criminal behavior into something that's not.
> >
> > Now _that_ is an interesting observation ... with a myriad of traps and
> > pitfalls, but I like the concept. Some inventive criminal mind should be
> > able to use that to advantage.
>
> Well, to be fair, the Sheriff in our county is a "regular guy" rather than
> a politician, so he's able to use actual logic and stuff rather than
> basing police decisions on what is politically driven or something.
> Basically it went from a potential drunk-driving problem waiting to
> happen, to a "public drunkenness" thing...but, the guy wasn't an
> obnoxious drunk, he was a happy drunk & didn't cause any problems.
> Nothing to be gained by dragging someone in that isn't causing any
> problems for anyone (except himself, but that wasn't gonna change anyway).
>
> That having been said, if someone's dog bites, the owner is responsible
> for it, the dog is not. So, an animal can eliminate a criminal act but
> not be responsible for same. Interesting...
Dogs are regularly killed after attacking someone, and you never hear a peep
about it from their owners. Although I suspect you're right about the law
not EXPLICITLY spelling out the theory of intent for an animal, there's a
big-ass loophole somewhere. Of course, this is only right, considering that
we're discussing a trash animal anyway.
Unless you're really into the status thing or planning to breed, get a
mixed breed from the pound. "Mutts" generally have fewer of the kinds
of problems you mention (hip dysplasia), you're harvesting one from the
unwanted collumn and allowing it to avoid being destroyed as opposed to
helping to feed the production end of the industry and you'll had just
as good a pet and companion.
OMO
bob g.
Doug Kanter wrote:
> "alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Adam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>>news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm now
>>>>>spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about
>>>>>what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night,
>>>>>too!)
>>>>
>>>>What a useless challenge, would your time be
>>>>better spent volunteering for something?
>>>
>>>Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that
>
> criticizing
>
>>>the choices of others?
>>
>> Read the thread. He was spoofing Kanter's criticism of someone's time
>>spent dealing with pet issues.
>
>
> Ah....but there's a difference. It's absurd to take an animal which is
> designed to roam and hunt, keep it indoors or confined to a yard, and not
> expect it to behave in ways which (almost) without exception make it a
> headache to society, or worse.
>
> Or sillier: "We're thinking of getting a golden retriever, but I understand
> they all end up with hip problems". Dumb phuques.
>
>
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >You know, there are instances when dogs bite in the presence of their
> >owners, and others where the dog is off on its own solo adventure. Either
> >way, it's easily preventable by the owner, but the owner has explicitly
> >chosen NOT to prevent the attack. With me so far?
>
> Doug, I tend to agree with you on this one. But while IANAL, it seems
> to me that your "logic" breaks down in the following paragraphs.
>
> >Since it's easy to prevent, but was NOT prevented, the owner has shown
> >INTENT.
>
> No, I think he has shown negligence. There is no evidence he intended
> for the dog to attack the person.
See my comment after the drowned baby paragraph.
> > You probably don't agree with this, but the law does.
> Is this your legal opinion, and are you qualified to give one?
Again, see my comment after the drowned baby paragraph.
>
> >It's called
> >criminal negligence, and the theory exists only because it's impossible
to
> >prove that a person had intent.
> Again, IANAL, but I think that the theory is there not only for
> unprovable intent, but also for negligence instead of intent.
>
> > If we could get away with calling certain
> >crimes intentional, we would.
> Right. But there are crimes that do not involve intent, just criminal
> negligence.
>
> >
> >You probably still don't agree with this. So: Put an infant in the bath
tub,
> >walk away, pop open a beer and watch TV for 1/2 hour. Later, your lawyer
> >will explain the obvious: You knew perfectly well about the likelihood of
> >the baby drowning, which it did. Since you knew, but walked away, the
jury
> >will assume (correctly) that you intended for the baby to die, even if
you
> >did not push its head under the water. You may not be charged with
murder,
> >but you will be charged with some level of criminal negligence.
> That case sounds more like intent. A better case may be leaving the
> gate in the fence around your pool open despite kids freely roaming
> the neighborhood and neighbors asking you to keep it closed. No clear
> intent to drown a child (as I think there arguably was in your
> example), but still probably criminal negligence -- more like the
> uncontrolled dog case, IMHO.
The law isn't a thing composed of pure logic. It reflects the needs and
wishes of society at large. Think about this: When you hear about a parent
or guardian doing something outrageous which permits a child to be killed or
injured, what is your reaction and that of the people around you? I think
the reaction of many is that the adult should be treated in the harshest
manner because "everyone knows x y z will always result in death". You've
heard this, I'm sure, and you may have reacted that way yourself. In other
words, we often desire the same penalties for negligence as we do for
intent. I think the logic flows backwards from the desired penalty to the
jury trial. We think in terms of intent, even when we know the situation
doesn't precisely fit the definition. A district attorney in the next county
managed to prosecute a DWI case as first degree murder a few years back, and
got quite a ways through the trial until the defendant plea bargained. I
think she got 20 years even so. I won't go into how he worked with
"intent" - long story - but the jury said afterwards that they were ready to
go with the logic.
Second, it should be obvious to any thinking person that many practices
undertaken by dog owners are proof that those people are thumbing their
noses at their neighbors. Example: After living in an apartment for two
years, I just moved to a house. Because I love the outdoors, and my
apartment's property had way too many sodium lights on at night, I'm now
spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about what
plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night, too!) It's a
corner house with a street sign and a fire hydrant, and you know what THAT
means.
It's been interesting. Dog owners don't see me for some reason, but I see
them. I very quietly say hello. They immediately pull their dogs away from
my lawn like children who've been caught doing something naughty. In fact,
they are, and they know it, but they hope to get away with it. During the
day, most of them don't stop here any more. I work from home. They never
know when I might take a break and step outside, so they have to find a home
where they won't be caught.
> >Back to the dog that bites: Since the owner showed intent,
> I don't think he has. He has shown negligence, and possibly criminal
> negligence.
Hmm. I think people view their dogs as some kind of angels, like they do
their children, even if their kids might be breaking into homes or selling
drugs. It's a form of denial. But, they HAVE to be that way because they
have a pathological need to control something, and a dog is perfect for
that. Imagine if cats weighed 98 pounds and you tried that with them. :-)
We can but dream.....
>
> > it's not enough
> >to say to him "Bad owner. No more dogs for you".
> I agree.
> --
> Alex
> Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dave Hinz" wrote in message
>
> > So, even though an animal can't be a criminal, it can turn what would
> > have been criminal behavior into something that's not.
>
> Now _that_ is an interesting observation ... with a myriad of traps and
> pitfalls, but I like the concept. Some inventive criminal mind should be
> able to use that to advantage.
They already have. The criminals are called dog owners, and if you politely
ask them to not stop their dogs on your lawn, they'll tell you that their
dogs habitually use that spot, or like to use that spot, as if they've been
through a discussion with the animal and the dog won the argument.
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>There is one obvious flaw in this line of reasoning.
>
>The dog has intent also.
Irrelevant. The law does not recognize animals (or, indeed, some humans) as
capable of differentiating between right and wrong, and thus they are not
responsible, under the law, for their actions. The owner of a dog is liable,
under the law, for the dog's behavior.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
Rick Cook <[email protected]> wrote in news:4165E802.A55EAC01
@mindspring.com:
> In fact this is pretty much a list of the most popular large dog breeds
> in the United
> States. (The pit bull gets honorary 'large dog' status because of its
> extreme strength.)
> You'll note that both Great Danes and St. Bernards make the list of top
> killer dogs.
You fail to note that #1 had more than double the deaths of #2 and one
third of the total number for the sixteen large breeds.
"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I'm now
> spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about
> what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night,
> too!)
What a useless challenge, would your time be
better spent volunteering for something?
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Adam wrote:
>
>> "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I'm now
>>> spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking
>>> about what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at
>>> night, too!)
>>
>> What a useless challenge, would your time be
>> better spent volunteering for something?
>
> Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that
> criticizing the choices of others?
>
You should follow the thread a little closer before jumping on someone.
"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>
> >> >Second, it should be obvious to any thinking person that many
practices
> >> >undertaken by dog owners are proof that those people are thumbing
their
> >> >noses at their neighbors.
> >> As a thinking person and a dog owner, I take exception to that
> >> generalization! It is certainly true that there are inconsiderate dog
> >> owners as there are inconsiderate cat owners and inconsiderate people
> >> with no pets. None of those can be generalized.
> >
> >OK, Alexy, let's clean out all the text and pose a simple respone to what
> >you just said.
> >
> >Think about dog owners who walk their dogs. Forget that some clean up
after
> >their dogs and some don't.
> Why? Maybe that doesn't make a difference to you, but it does to me. I
> have no hang-ups about neighbors whose dogs use our yard, when the
> neighbor immediately cleans up after them. But I do have a problem
> with one neighbor who lets his dogs run free to "do their business",
> leaving me with small turds to discover with each grass cutting
> (luckily small dogs).
> > Focus only on the fact that these people allow
> >their dogs to use other peoples' property as toilets.
> >
> >With me so far? I'll leave lots of white space so you have time to think.
> >
> >Ready?
> >
> >Good.
> >
> >Next: Let's say you have children. They have a sand box they love to play
> >in. Now, a mommy or daddy comes along with a baby in a stroller. They
stop
> >in front of your house. You see the parent poking around the baby's
diaper.
> >Baby has apparently taken a dump. The parent removes the diaper. It must
be
> >a real stinker because they toss it into your kid's sand box.
> >
> >You accost them and yell at them, but they tell you "Yeah....but I rolled
it
> >up and fastened it with the little tape things!"
> >
> >In other words:
> >
> >1) They've given you a reason that complete nonsense.
> Sure. And done something VERY different from a pet owner who cleaned
> up after their pet.
>
> >2) They informed you that your property is, in fact, their property.
> This must come from the same mind that equates negligence with intent!
>
> I would think that a refusal to respect a request not to behave in
> that way would be unacceptable.
>
> In what way do you think that contradicts my statement that many dog
> owners can be reasonable and not thumb their noses at their neighbors.
I have the results of a small sampling, but the only sampling that's
relevant to my situation: The people I've politely asked to stay out of my
yard.
> FWIW, I always clean up after my dog. He usually goes in our own back
> yard before a walk, or in the yard of another dog owner. I keep him
> from going in yards where I frequently see children playing. I'm not
> aware of any neighbors with hang ups about dogs similar to yours, but
> if I did, I would certainly respect their wishes.
I don't have a hangup. I am a gardener. I have the right to work on my
property without gloves. I have the right to expect to spend my time in the
way I choose. That does NOT include wasting my time cleaning shit off my
shoes.
As far as the so-called "good" dog owners who clean up after their animals,
it's meaningless. It still leaves a scent that attracts other dogs. And, of
course, you can't clean up urine. Proof the the attraction theory is that
with NO exceptions, every single dog that passes by expresses an interest in
a flower bed on the corner of my property. Someone started it, and thus it
continues.
In some cases, I look at it in a way that's devastating to dog owners. I'm
totally open minded with regard to other peoples' sexual tastes, but there's
one thing I don't want people to share with me: coprophilia - the handling
of feces for sexual enjoyment. It's not good to roam the neighborhood with
the hope that other people will share your thrills.
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Adam wrote:
>
>> "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> I'm now
>>> spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about
>>> what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night,
>>> too!)
>>
>> What a useless challenge, would your time be
>> better spent volunteering for something?
>
>Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that criticizing
>the choices of others?
Read the thread. He was spoofing Kanter's criticism of someone's time
spent dealing with pet issues.
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>The law isn't a thing composed of pure logic. It reflects the needs and
>wishes of society at large. Think about this: When you hear about a parent
>or guardian doing something outrageous which permits a child to be killed or
>injured, what is your reaction and that of the people around you? I think
>the reaction of many is that the adult should be treated in the harshest
>manner because "everyone knows x y z will always result in death". You've
>heard this, I'm sure, and you may have reacted that way yourself. In other
>words, we often desire the same penalties for negligence as we do for
>intent.
With you so far...
> I think the logic flows backwards from the desired penalty to the
>jury trial. We think in terms of intent, even when we know the situation
>doesn't precisely fit the definition.
Huh!?!? bizarre logic. A loaf of bread may cost the same as a six-pack
of cola, and have the same value to me. But that doesn't cause me to
confuse the two. Similarly, even identical penalties for intentional
acts versus criminal negligence does not make them the same thing.
>Second, it should be obvious to any thinking person that many practices
>undertaken by dog owners are proof that those people are thumbing their
>noses at their neighbors.
As a thinking person and a dog owner, I take exception to that
generalization! It is certainly true that there are inconsiderate dog
owners as there are inconsiderate cat owners and inconsiderate people
with no pets. None of those can be generalized.
>Example: After living in an apartment for two
>years, I just moved to a house. Because I love the outdoors, and my
>apartment's property had way too many sodium lights on at night, I'm now
>spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about what
>plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night, too!) It's a
>corner house with a street sign and a fire hydrant, and you know what THAT
>means.
>
>It's been interesting. Dog owners don't see me for some reason, but I see
>them. I very quietly say hello. They immediately pull their dogs away from
>my lawn like children who've been caught doing something naughty.
Why, unless they are not carrying a pooper-scooper or clean-up bag?
> In fact,
>they are, and they know it, but they hope to get away with it. During the
>day, most of them don't stop here any more. I work from home. They never
>know when I might take a break and step outside, so they have to find a home
>where they won't be caught.
You seem to have problems with dogs. Some traumatic early childhood
incident, perhaps? <g>
>> >Back to the dog that bites: Since the owner showed intent,
>
>> I don't think he has. He has shown negligence, and possibly criminal
>> negligence.
>
>Hmm. I think people view their dogs as some kind of angels, like they do
>their children, even if their kids might be breaking into homes or selling
>drugs.
No question--some do.
> It's a form of denial. But, they HAVE to be that way because they
>have a pathological need to control something, and a dog is perfect for
>that. Imagine if cats weighed 98 pounds and you tried that with them. :-)
>We can but dream.....
A psychologist as well as a lawyer? <g>
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
Adam wrote:
> "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I'm now
>> spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about
>> what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night,
>> too!)
>
> What a useless challenge, would your time be
> better spent volunteering for something?
Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that criticizing
the choices of others?
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
[email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 21:31:33 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
> wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>>>There is one obvious flaw in this line of reasoning.
>>>
>>>The dog has intent also.
>>
>>Irrelevant. The law does not recognize animals (or, indeed, some humans)
>>as capable of differentiating between right and wrong, and thus they are
>>not responsible, under the law, for their actions. The owner of a dog is
>>liable, under the law, for the dog's behavior.
>
>
> but the law is at best theory.
The law is at worst what will take away your liberty and property.
> the dog's will to roam the neighborhood is very real.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Adam <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> I'm now
>> spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about
>> what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night,
>> too!)
>
>What a useless challenge, would your time be
>better spent volunteering for something?
LOL!
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Or sillier: "We're thinking of getting a golden retriever, but I understand
>they all end up with hip problems". Dumb phuques.
Yes, and accurate description of anyone who would think that. My
Golden certainly never had hip problems in her 14 years.
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:24:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>The owners
>of offending dogs will have their eyelids fastened open, perhaps with
>surgical tape, but preferably with staples. They will then be seated 6" from
>the table on which their "pets" will be killed, and forced to watch.
Yes, but we tried that with Alex
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:24:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Statistics are meaningless. The solution for dog bites is simple: The owners
>of offending dogs will have their eyelids fastened open, perhaps with
>surgical tape, but preferably with staples. They will then be seated 6" from
>the table on which their "pets" will be killed, and forced to watch. When
>the deed is done, the owners will be taken directly to prison where they
>will be charged in the same way as if they had attacked the victim
>themselves. In a perfect world, they'd be placed in a cell with a very
>phuked up dog they'd never met before and doused with beef blood.
>Unfortunately, the world's not perfect yet.
Ok, you may need some ritalin or something... I think taking loose
dogs to the pound is quite sufficent, providing repeat offenders are
not allowed to simply come get the dog back.
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 17:23:34 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:24:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Statistics are meaningless. The solution for dog bites is simple: The
> >owners
> >> >of offending dogs will have their eyelids fastened open, perhaps with
> >> >surgical tape, but preferably with staples. They will then be seated
6"
> >from
> >> >the table on which their "pets" will be killed, and forced to watch.
When
> >> >the deed is done, the owners will be taken directly to prison where
they
> >> >will be charged in the same way as if they had attacked the victim
> >> >themselves. In a perfect world, they'd be placed in a cell with a very
> >> >phuked up dog they'd never met before and doused with beef blood.
> >> >Unfortunately, the world's not perfect yet.
> >>
> >> Ok, you may need some ritalin or something... I think taking loose
> >> dogs to the pound is quite sufficent, providing repeat offenders are
> >> not allowed to simply come get the dog back.
> >>
> >
> >Ritalin? :-) That's for people who can't stay focused on one subject. I'm
> >TOTALLY focused.
> >
> >You know, there are instances when dogs bite in the presence of their
> >owners, and others where the dog is off on its own solo adventure. Either
> >way, it's easily preventable by the owner, but the owner has explicitly
> >chosen NOT to prevent the attack. With me so far?
> >
> >Since it's easy to prevent, but was NOT prevented, the owner has shown
> >INTENT. You probably don't agree with this, but the law does. It's called
> >criminal negligence, and the theory exists only because it's impossible
to
> >prove that a person had intent. If we could get away with calling certain
> >crimes intentional, we would.
> >
> >You probably still don't agree with this. So: Put an infant in the bath
tub,
> >walk away, pop open a beer and watch TV for 1/2 hour. Later, your lawyer
> >will explain the obvious: You knew perfectly well about the likelihood of
> >the baby drowning, which it did. Since you knew, but walked away, the
jury
> >will assume (correctly) that you intended for the baby to die, even if
you
> >did not push its head under the water. You may not be charged with
murder,
> >but you will be charged with some level of criminal negligence.
> >
> >Back to the dog that bites: Since the owner showed intent, it's not
enough
> >to say to him "Bad owner. No more dogs for you".
> >
>
>
> There is one obvious flaw in this line of reasoning.
>
> The dog has intent also.
>
> It's been a long struggle to keep my dogs in the yard. they'll dig way
> down to get under a fence....
>
> But yes, it is my responsibility to do so.
What a useless challenge, keeping dumb animals in a yard. Would your time be
better spent volunteering for something?
"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"alexy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> >Second, it should be obvious to any thinking person that many practices
>> >undertaken by dog owners are proof that those people are thumbing their
>> >noses at their neighbors.
>> As a thinking person and a dog owner, I take exception to that
>> generalization! It is certainly true that there are inconsiderate dog
>> owners as there are inconsiderate cat owners and inconsiderate people
>> with no pets. None of those can be generalized.
>
>OK, Alexy, let's clean out all the text and pose a simple respone to what
>you just said.
>
>Think about dog owners who walk their dogs. Forget that some clean up after
>their dogs and some don't.
Why? Maybe that doesn't make a difference to you, but it does to me. I
have no hang-ups about neighbors whose dogs use our yard, when the
neighbor immediately cleans up after them. But I do have a problem
with one neighbor who lets his dogs run free to "do their business",
leaving me with small turds to discover with each grass cutting
(luckily small dogs).
> Focus only on the fact that these people allow
>their dogs to use other peoples' property as toilets.
>
>With me so far? I'll leave lots of white space so you have time to think.
>
>Ready?
>
>Good.
>
>Next: Let's say you have children. They have a sand box they love to play
>in. Now, a mommy or daddy comes along with a baby in a stroller. They stop
>in front of your house. You see the parent poking around the baby's diaper.
>Baby has apparently taken a dump. The parent removes the diaper. It must be
>a real stinker because they toss it into your kid's sand box.
>
>You accost them and yell at them, but they tell you "Yeah....but I rolled it
>up and fastened it with the little tape things!"
>
>In other words:
>
>1) They've given you a reason that complete nonsense.
Sure. And done something VERY different from a pet owner who cleaned
up after their pet.
>2) They informed you that your property is, in fact, their property.
This must come from the same mind that equates negligence with intent!
I would think that a refusal to respect a request not to behave in
that way would be unacceptable.
In what way do you think that contradicts my statement that many dog
owners can be reasonable and not thumb their noses at their neighbors.
FWIW, I always clean up after my dog. He usually goes in our own back
yard before a walk, or in the yard of another dog owner. I keep him
from going in yards where I frequently see children playing. I'm not
aware of any neighbors with hang ups about dogs similar to yours, but
if I did, I would certainly respect their wishes.
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
Rick Cook <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> (This apparently didn't make it through the first time, so I'm
> reposting it. I apologize if it
> is a duplicate.)
>
> Here are some additional references on dog bites, dog bite fatalities
> and pit bulls, as
> well as a final rant.
>
> The CDC listing of pit bulls as a 'dangerous breed'
> -- doesn't exist. The CDC lists no dog breeds as specifically
> dangerous and the
> comments of one of the main authors of the CDC study on dog bite
> fatalities (see next
> item) suggests strongly she finds the whole idea erroneous.
The CDC statistics puts them at the top of the list for death by dog
bite, whether or not they consider them dangerous.
"Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:24:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Statistics are meaningless. The solution for dog bites is simple: The
owners
> >of offending dogs will have their eyelids fastened open, perhaps with
> >surgical tape, but preferably with staples. They will then be seated 6"
from
> >the table on which their "pets" will be killed, and forced to watch. When
> >the deed is done, the owners will be taken directly to prison where they
> >will be charged in the same way as if they had attacked the victim
> >themselves. In a perfect world, they'd be placed in a cell with a very
> >phuked up dog they'd never met before and doused with beef blood.
> >Unfortunately, the world's not perfect yet.
>
> Ok, you may need some ritalin or something... I think taking loose
> dogs to the pound is quite sufficent, providing repeat offenders are
> not allowed to simply come get the dog back.
>
Ritalin? :-) That's for people who can't stay focused on one subject. I'm
TOTALLY focused.
You know, there are instances when dogs bite in the presence of their
owners, and others where the dog is off on its own solo adventure. Either
way, it's easily preventable by the owner, but the owner has explicitly
chosen NOT to prevent the attack. With me so far?
Since it's easy to prevent, but was NOT prevented, the owner has shown
INTENT. You probably don't agree with this, but the law does. It's called
criminal negligence, and the theory exists only because it's impossible to
prove that a person had intent. If we could get away with calling certain
crimes intentional, we would.
You probably still don't agree with this. So: Put an infant in the bath tub,
walk away, pop open a beer and watch TV for 1/2 hour. Later, your lawyer
will explain the obvious: You knew perfectly well about the likelihood of
the baby drowning, which it did. Since you knew, but walked away, the jury
will assume (correctly) that you intended for the baby to die, even if you
did not push its head under the water. You may not be charged with murder,
but you will be charged with some level of criminal negligence.
Back to the dog that bites: Since the owner showed intent, it's not enough
to say to him "Bad owner. No more dogs for you".
"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>You know, there are instances when dogs bite in the presence of their
>owners, and others where the dog is off on its own solo adventure. Either
>way, it's easily preventable by the owner, but the owner has explicitly
>chosen NOT to prevent the attack. With me so far?
Doug, I tend to agree with you on this one. But while IANAL, it seems
to me that your "logic" breaks down in the following paragraphs.
>Since it's easy to prevent, but was NOT prevented, the owner has shown
>INTENT.
No, I think he has shown negligence. There is no evidence he intended
for the dog to attack the person.
> You probably don't agree with this, but the law does.
Is this your legal opinion, and are you qualified to give one?
>It's called
>criminal negligence, and the theory exists only because it's impossible to
>prove that a person had intent.
Again, IANAL, but I think that the theory is there not only for
unprovable intent, but also for negligence instead of intent.
> If we could get away with calling certain
>crimes intentional, we would.
Right. But there are crimes that do not involve intent, just criminal
negligence.
>
>You probably still don't agree with this. So: Put an infant in the bath tub,
>walk away, pop open a beer and watch TV for 1/2 hour. Later, your lawyer
>will explain the obvious: You knew perfectly well about the likelihood of
>the baby drowning, which it did. Since you knew, but walked away, the jury
>will assume (correctly) that you intended for the baby to die, even if you
>did not push its head under the water. You may not be charged with murder,
>but you will be charged with some level of criminal negligence.
That case sounds more like intent. A better case may be leaving the
gate in the fence around your pool open despite kids freely roaming
the neighborhood and neighbors asking you to keep it closed. No clear
intent to drown a child (as I think there arguably was in your
example), but still probably criminal negligence -- more like the
uncontrolled dog case, IMHO.
>Back to the dog that bites: Since the owner showed intent,
I don't think he has. He has shown negligence, and possibly criminal
negligence.
> it's not enough
>to say to him "Bad owner. No more dogs for you".
I agree.
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 13:29:33 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On Fri, 08 Oct 2004 02:24:35 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>The owners
>>of offending dogs will have their eyelids fastened open, perhaps with
>>surgical tape, but preferably with staples. They will then be seated 6" from
>>the table on which their "pets" will be killed, and forced to watch.
>
>Yes, but we tried that with Alex
and what a good boy he became...
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
> So, even though an animal can't be a criminal, it can turn what would
> have been criminal behavior into something that's not.
Now _that_ is an interesting observation ... with a myriad of traps and
pitfalls, but I like the concept. Some inventive criminal mind should be
able to use that to advantage.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/04/04
"J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Adam wrote:
>
> > "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
> > news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> I'm now
> >> spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about
> >> what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night,
> >> too!)
> >
> > What a useless challenge, would your time be
> > better spent volunteering for something?
>
> Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that criticizing
> the choices of others?
Be gentle. Adam's probably one of those guys who thinks "a complete
landscape job" is three hydrangeas and a lifetime supply of weed killer.
He's be right except skip the damned hydrangeas
Doug Kanter wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Adam wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm now
>>>>spending lots of time outdoors enjoying the stars, and thinking about
>>>>what plants should go where. (A garden's got to look good at night,
>>>>too!)
>>>
>>>What a useless challenge, would your time be
>>>better spent volunteering for something?
>>
>>Wouldn't yours be better spend volunteering for something that criticizing
>>the choices of others?
>
>
> Be gentle. Adam's probably one of those guys who thinks "a complete
> landscape job" is three hydrangeas and a lifetime supply of weed killer.
>
>
"George" <george@least> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I guess you missed the words "local access."
>
> Other than that, there are, as mentioned often _two_ hogs contesting. The
> one overtaking, and the idiot behind who thinks that menacing from the
rear
> is the way to get the "left-lane hog" to do things his way.
I would agree. Personally, I find the creative use of headlights to be a
useful tool for the 90% of drivers who have idea there's anyone behind them.
They work better from a safe distance.
"Swingman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Doug Miller" wrote in message
>
>> There, we get into the reason that we have laws and jails in the first
>place:
>> to protect society from those whose unwillingness to abide by societal
>norms
>> places the rest of society in jeopardy.
>
>Ironically it is often the lawmakers and law enforcers in this country who
>are placing "society in jeopardy".
>
>In lieu of enforcing existing laws, logic is often twisted to enable some to
>break a law while penalizing those who obey it:
>
>Try driving the speed limit in the left lane of a four lane in many states.
While it is certainly against common sense, courtesy, and commonly
accepted "rules of the road" to drive in the left lane when not
passing, is it really against the law in some states? I wish it were
against the law and enforced in more states.
--
Alex
Make the obvious change in the return address to reply by email.
"Doug Miller" wrote in message
> There, we get into the reason that we have laws and jails in the first
place:
> to protect society from those whose unwillingness to abide by societal
norms
> places the rest of society in jeopardy.
Ironically it is often the lawmakers and law enforcers in this country who
are placing "society in jeopardy".
In lieu of enforcing existing laws, logic is often twisted to enable some to
break a law while penalizing those who obey it:
Try driving the speed limit in the left lane of a four lane in many states.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/04/04