Shop Heat

"Jason Pope" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a single bay garage that id like to insulate and heat. Don't like
the
> idea of smelly kero or expensive electric and of course want to spend as
> little as possible. $100 Home Depot propane jobby or $100 bucks worth of
> electric base board and plan to up grade later. I will only be in the shop
a
> few hours a week.


Detached or attached? What type of climate. Mine is detached 1 1/2 car
garage and partially insulated. I have a 30,000 Btu propane heater and can
easily get a 40 degree temperature rise. That means I miss working in the
shop when it bets below 20 and definitely the days it was single digits.

In hindsight, I should have looked around more and bought a 30 - 80K unit
like Mike has.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

I guess I am the exception in this case. I just built (last summer) a
detached 20x24 garage/shop. While I only have the experience of the winter
so far (and it has been unusually cold), I went with electric heat, and a
lot of insulation. I have warmed the shop from in the 20's to 60 in an hour
with 1-220 shop heater and 2 oil-filled electric radiators. After that, and
depending on if it's day or night, the fan heater comes on for a few minutes
about once every half hour or so, and the radiators cycle more frequently.
No smell, no condensation, and no tank refills. My electric bill did not go
up what I consider significantly for December.

One of the biggest improvements is to have an insulated garage door. I have
a steel one that I cut 1" foam panels onto (watch the weight if you do
this). It made a tremendous difference. In hindsight I should have probably
just went with an insulated door to begin with.

Cheers!
Duke

"Jason Pope" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a single bay garage that id like to insulate and heat. Don't like
the
> idea of smelly kero or expensive electric and of course want to spend as
> little as possible. $100 Home Depot propane jobby or $100 bucks worth of
> electric base board and plan to up grade later. I will only be in the shop
a
> few hours a week.
>
>

"Biff Steele" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
> No blower, no smell, no noise, no dust blowing around and unless I'm
> handling heavy stuff, I can kick off my shoes, even last week when it
> was -15F.

> Anyway - this pbbly doesn't help but thought I'd share my ideas.

OK, you suck!
Ed

Well, that's your house service, isn't it, not the diameter of the feeder
line to your burner?

If you have a gas stove and water heater in addition, maybe a problem.
Otherwise, nope. Stove is the biggest gas burner.

"Jerry Gilreath" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:_2aQb.103659$Rc4.706686@attbi_s54...
> Oooops, sorry. It's 3/4 copper line. I don't know where I came up with the
> 5/8! I'll pick up the other furnace tonight and check the tags. I've got a
> friend that work for LG&E to see what size line he would suggest, but I
hate
> to ask him. I've been telling him I'd do some work on his truck, and just
> can't seem to find the roundtuit!! Thanks again.
> "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Jerry Gilreath wrote:
> > > My question
> > > is, I've got a 5/8 inch gas line running to the garage, when I tap
> > > off of it to run to the new furnace, is it big enough to run both
> > > furnace's when and if they kick on at the same time?
> >
> >
> > What kind of line is it? I don't know of any 5/8" pipe or tubing but
> 1/2"
> > copper measures 5/8" OD. Are you measuring the OD?
> >
> > To determine if it is adequate you need to know the gas pressure and the
> > consumption rate of the two heaters. I'd say it would be marginal with
> that
> > size though.

Morris Dovey wrote:

> (Response to Tim's and Peter's request for more info)
>
> I've put myself in a somewhat awkward position. I'm trying to eke
> out a living by manufacturing and selling a design that I've been
> developing (and spending on) since the early 70's. I'm reluctant
> to give it all away; and at the same time I'd like to empower you
> to achieve the considerable savings these things can provide by
> building your own.
>
> Let me try to answer your questions by talking about the bill of
> materials for a smaller collector, say 4'x8'. You can scale this
> to whatever size you want.
>
> (4) 2" x 6" x 8' Construction grade pine/fir/spruce
> (1) 1" x 4" x 4' #2 or better pine
> (3) 4' x 8' x 1/4" plywood
> (1) 4' x 8' x 6mm polycarbonate thermal glazing
> (4) 2" x 8' x 1/4" tempered hardboard
> (3) 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 1/8" x 8' aluminum angle
> (1) 1-1/2" x 1/8" x 8' aluminum flat
>
> approx 4" of 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/16" aluminum angle for heat
> exchanger brackets.
>
> approx. 260' of 35mm x 0.1mm aluminum ribbon (formed) for the
> heat exchanger.
>
> oil based primer and paint for the box exterior
> optical flat black paint for the heat exchanger
>
> Screws and glue.
>
> You should be able to buy all of the above at your local
> lumberyard except for the aluminum ribbon. I couldn't get any
> reps or manufacturers in the USA to even talk to me about this
> stuff so I special-ordered about 8-1/2 miles (minimum order!) of
> it from an off-shore manufacturer.
>
> I'll be astonished if you spend more than $250 at your local
> lumberyard.
>
> I'll post pictures of two panels (the 6x12 now heating my shop
> plus a 2x6 in-the-wall prototype built with 1" pine) on
> news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking as soon as I send this
> off. You're also invited to explore my website at
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto - where you can see what the collector
> (what of it can be seen) looks like from the inside of the shop.
>
> Final comment: Solar heating is /not/ rocket surgery! You can
> build a fairly efficient solar heating panel at fairly low cost
> using the ordinary tools found in almost every garage or basement
> woodworking shop.
What do you do in the summer? Flip it over? No heating help needed here
when it gets 100 deg. outside.

--

Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA
...........................................
My wife said I never listen to her. At
least I think that's what she said.




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(Response to Tim's and Peter's request for more info)

I've put myself in a somewhat awkward position. I'm trying to eke
out a living by manufacturing and selling a design that I've been
developing (and spending on) since the early 70's. I'm reluctant
to give it all away; and at the same time I'd like to empower you
to achieve the considerable savings these things can provide by
building your own.

Let me try to answer your questions by talking about the bill of
materials for a smaller collector, say 4'x8'. You can scale this
to whatever size you want.

(4) 2" x 6" x 8' Construction grade pine/fir/spruce
(1) 1" x 4" x 4' #2 or better pine
(3) 4' x 8' x 1/4" plywood
(1) 4' x 8' x 6mm polycarbonate thermal glazing
(4) 2" x 8' x 1/4" tempered hardboard
(3) 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 1/8" x 8' aluminum angle
(1) 1-1/2" x 1/8" x 8' aluminum flat

approx 4" of 3/4" x 3/4" x 1/16" aluminum angle for heat
exchanger brackets.

approx. 260' of 35mm x 0.1mm aluminum ribbon (formed) for the
heat exchanger.

oil based primer and paint for the box exterior
optical flat black paint for the heat exchanger

Screws and glue.

You should be able to buy all of the above at your local
lumberyard except for the aluminum ribbon. I couldn't get any
reps or manufacturers in the USA to even talk to me about this
stuff so I special-ordered about 8-1/2 miles (minimum order!) of
it from an off-shore manufacturer.

I'll be astonished if you spend more than $250 at your local
lumberyard.

I'll post pictures of two panels (the 6x12 now heating my shop
plus a 2x6 in-the-wall prototype built with 1" pine) on
news:alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking as soon as I send this
off. You're also invited to explore my website at
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto - where you can see what the collector
(what of it can be seen) looks like from the inside of the shop.

Final comment: Solar heating is /not/ rocket surgery! You can
build a fairly efficient solar heating panel at fairly low cost
using the ordinary tools found in almost every garage or basement
woodworking shop.
--
Morris Dovey
West Des Moines, Iowa USA
C links at http://www.iedu.com/c
Read my lips: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<0PHPb.11115$%[email protected]>...
> "Jason Pope" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I have a single bay garage that id like to insulate and heat. Don't like
> the
> > idea of smelly kero or expensive electric and of course want to spend as
> > little as possible. $100 Home Depot propane jobby or $100 bucks worth of
> > electric base board and plan to up grade later. I will only be in the shop
> a
> > few hours a week.
>
>
> Detached or attached? What type of climate. Mine is detached 1 1/2 car
> garage and partially insulated. I have a 30,000 Btu propane heater and can
> easily get a 40 degree temperature rise. That means I miss working in the
> shop when it bets below 20 and definitely the days it was single digits.
>
> In hindsight, I should have looked around more and bought a 30 - 80K unit
> like Mike has.
> Ed
> [email protected]
> http://pages.cthome.net/edhome


I did not see my last post to this subject and wonder where it went???
Briefly, I have a large single stall garage that I heat with a
combination coal/wood stove that is simply wonderful heat. I use wood
in warmer temps by burning scrap in the morning. By mid day the sun
takes over and keeps things at a comfortable level for the rest of the
day. As long as the temps don't go down too low at night I will let
the stove burn itself out. When the temps get cold I switch to coal
which produces a steady volume of heat 24 hrs a day. I pay $4.50 for
a 50# bag which last two days. Cheap enough? I through a few coals on
every three or four hours daytime and at night around 11 give it a
good shaking and fill it gradually until it is full up. A point to
remember is to add just a little coal at a time as you don't want to
lower the temp too suddenly as this will produce clinkers. Just add a
few coals at a time and let them catch before adding more. Yes it is
a little more work than turning a thermostat or filling a kerosene
tank but the plus side IMO is worth it. Nice dry even heat without
condensation or fumes for cheap money. Using scraps to heat is a big
savings. No cost at all. Beat that!!

Biff Steele wrote:
> I know it pbbly doesn't meet the budget requirments, and maybe I'm
> just gloating a bit here, but I just built my dream shop and it's all
> in-floor radiant heating. It cannot be beat - please don't argue with
> me on that<G>. I heat a 600 sqft shop, a 720sq ft garage and the
> basement under the 600 sqft shop with a 40 gallon water heater running
> propane.
>
> No blower, no smell, no noise, no dust blowing around and unless I'm
> handling heavy stuff, I can kick off my shoes, even last week when it
> was -15F.
>
Radiant is the way to go. I installed it in my upstairs bathroom about 12
years ago and the cats have really enjoyed it. The shop is next, I have to
run a natural gas feed out to the garage, we're getting really hosed in this
area on propane prices (one of the guys I work with just paid $4 per gallon
for his propane)

Morris Dovey wrote:
> ATP wrote:
>
>> Radiant is the way to go. I installed it in my upstairs
>> bathroom about 12 years ago and the cats have really enjoyed
>> it. The shop is next, I have to run a natural gas feed out to
>> the garage, we're getting really hosed in this area on propane
>> prices (one of the guys I work with just paid $4 per gallon for his
>> propane)
>
>
> Natural gas prices will probably follow propane. I'd like to suggest a
> secondary solar heat source - not to replace existing primary system;
> but to lower its "duty cycle" and reduce fuel consumption.
>
> I installed a 6'x12' shop-built passive solar heating panel this fall on
> the south wall of my (50'x50'x16') shop. By itself, it has kept the
> temperature above freezing all winter. Before next winter I plan to
> install two additional panels to bring the daytime temperature up to a
> more or less consistant 70+ degree level. The gloat here is that once
> built and installed, the operating cost is zero.
>
> I'm strongly considering adding a natural gas unit heater to make up the
> difference on dark/overcast days. I don't expect to run it much; but I
> want the comfort it'd provide.


Do you have any drawings / picts of the shop built collector system? I
am on the nose end of planning a new shop and this type of info would be
of interest.

Thanks.

Tim
--
No BoomBoom for me! - [email protected]

I bought an 80,000 BTU job site type propane heater - hooks up to the gas
grill size or bigger propane tanks. I also work out of one garage bay of a
2-car garage, and it is insulated. When I crank that puppy up it goes from
30 deg. F to about 75 deg. F in 20 minutes. Even after turning the propane
completely off, it will still be above 55 deg. 2-3 hours later, depending on
the outside temperature.

Mike

"Jason Pope" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a single bay garage that id like to insulate and heat. Don't like
the
> idea of smelly kero or expensive electric and of course want to spend as
> little as possible. $100 Home Depot propane jobby or $100 bucks worth of
> electric base board and plan to up grade later. I will only be in the shop
a
> few hours a week.
>
>

Electric is the most expensive heat in my area and propane is very cheap,
clean and efficient. I'd try to find one with a sealed flame just for
safety.

I'm using kero myself and with the additive you can buy don't smell as bad
as it used to, but plan to switch to propane this summer when the price of
the stuff drops and the heaters go on sale in the next couple of weeks.

--

http://users.adelphia.net/~kyhighland


"Jason Pope" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a single bay garage that id like to insulate and heat. Don't like
the
> idea of smelly kero or expensive electric and of course want to spend as
> little as possible. $100 Home Depot propane jobby or $100 bucks worth of
> electric base board and plan to up grade later. I will only be in the shop
a
> few hours a week.
>
>

You might want to have the gas company verify that your gas meter has
enough capacity to handle the extra flow as well. When I switched from
an oil fired heating system which made hot water to a gas fired boiler
and a gas hot water heater, the gas company had to install a higher
capacity meter to handle the increased demand.

Tim

Jerry Gilreath wrote:
> Well no actually the house service is more like an inch or so, never
> measured it. It's black iron. I've teed off it and ran the copper 3/4 out to
> the garage where only the furnace lives. Hot water is made by electric, but
> if it's doable, I might change it to natural gas too. That would probably be
> pushing things a bit though. 2 furnaces and a hot water heater on 3/4
> line???? Don't think that'll fly.
>

--
No BoomBoom for me! - [email protected]

gustav wrote:
. Using scraps to heat is a big
> savings. No cost at all. Beat that!!

Scraps? You make scraps?
--
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

Well no actually the house service is more like an inch or so, never
measured it. It's black iron. I've teed off it and ran the copper 3/4 out to
the garage where only the furnace lives. Hot water is made by electric, but
if it's doable, I might change it to natural gas too. That would probably be
pushing things a bit though. 2 furnaces and a hot water heater on 3/4
line???? Don't think that'll fly.

--
"Cartoons don't have any deep meaning.
They're just stupid drawings that give you a cheap laugh."
Homer Simpson
Jerry© The Phoneman®
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Well, that's your house service, isn't it, not the diameter of the feeder
> line to your burner?
>
> If you have a gas stove and water heater in addition, maybe a problem.
> Otherwise, nope. Stove is the biggest gas burner.
>
> "Jerry Gilreath" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:_2aQb.103659$Rc4.706686@attbi_s54...
> > Oooops, sorry. It's 3/4 copper line. I don't know where I came up with
the
> > 5/8! I'll pick up the other furnace tonight and check the tags. I've got
a
> > friend that work for LG&E to see what size line he would suggest, but I
> hate
> > to ask him. I've been telling him I'd do some work on his truck, and
just
> > can't seem to find the roundtuit!! Thanks again.
> > "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > Jerry Gilreath wrote:
> > > > My question
> > > > is, I've got a 5/8 inch gas line running to the garage, when I tap
> > > > off of it to run to the new furnace, is it big enough to run both
> > > > furnace's when and if they kick on at the same time?
> > >
> > >
> > > What kind of line is it? I don't know of any 5/8" pipe or tubing but
> > 1/2"
> > > copper measures 5/8" OD. Are you measuring the OD?
> > >
> > > To determine if it is adequate you need to know the gas pressure and
the
> > > consumption rate of the two heaters. I'd say it would be marginal
with
> > that
> > > size though.
>
>

While we're on the subject of shop heat, anybody good with gas lines? I've
got a gas furnace in the garage, I think about 80k btu that I've got just a
duct running into the shop. Keeps it real toasty in there, with the
thermostat set at 60 in the garage. I'm getting another furnace tomorrow to
have the shop independent of the garage, so I can set the thermostat to
whatever I want and be comfortable. My question is, I've got a 5/8 inch gas
line running to the garage, when I tap off of it to run to the new furnace,
is it big enough to run both furnace's when and if they kick on at the same
time? I've kicked around the idea of running a separate line for it, but
damn!!!! Just looking for a better, no strike that, lazier way. Thanks!

--
"Cartoons don't have any deep meaning.
They're just stupid drawings that give you a cheap laugh."
Homer Simpson
Jerry© The Phoneman®
"Myxylplyk" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> <snippage>
>
> > On the coldest of days here in Pennsyltucky, I could fire up the
> > 150,000 BTU salamander in my twelve hundred square foot shop, and
> > have the air temperature to sixty degrees in less than half an hour.
>
> Tom,
>
> 1200 SF shop space.... nice driveby!
>
> :)
>
> Myx
>
>

Jerry Gilreath wrote:

> Well no actually the house service is more like an inch or so, never
> measured it. It's black iron. I've teed off it and ran the copper 3/4 out to
> the garage where only the furnace lives.


I hope you didn't run copper through the house, from what
I've read ,IIRC, is all piping within the dwelling must be
iron pipe.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart.
(S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure
ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snippage>

> On the coldest of days here in Pennsyltucky, I could fire up the
> 150,000 BTU salamander in my twelve hundred square foot shop, and
> have the air temperature to sixty degrees in less than half an hour.

Tom,

1200 SF shop space.... nice driveby!

:)

Myx

ATP wrote:

> Radiant is the way to go. I installed it in my upstairs
> bathroom about 12 years ago and the cats have really enjoyed
> it. The shop is next, I have to run a natural gas feed out to
> the garage, we're getting really hosed in this area on propane
> prices (one of the guys I work with just paid $4 per gallon
> for his propane)

Natural gas prices will probably follow propane. I'd like to
suggest a secondary solar heat source - not to replace existing
primary system; but to lower its "duty cycle" and reduce fuel
consumption.

I installed a 6'x12' shop-built passive solar heating panel this
fall on the south wall of my (50'x50'x16') shop. By itself, it
has kept the temperature above freezing all winter. Before next
winter I plan to install two additional panels to bring the
daytime temperature up to a more or less consistant 70+ degree
level. The gloat here is that once built and installed, the
operating cost is zero.

I'm strongly considering adding a natural gas unit heater to make
up the difference on dark/overcast days. I don't expect to run it
much; but I want the comfort it'd provide.
--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

Morris Dovey <[email protected]> wrote in news:6ybVb.32$LD5.64037
@news.uswest.net:

> You're also invited to explore my website at
> http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto - where you can see what the collector
> (what of it can be seen) looks like from the inside of the shop.
>

I tried to go to your site, but the solar page is empty of pictures? Where
exactly can I see the collectors?

My problem is that here in Radburn, Fair Lawn NJ, there are severe
restrictions on what we can put up, and I fear that solar collectors
wouldn't be permitted on the roof or elsewhere.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Oooops, sorry. It's 3/4 copper line. I don't know where I came up with the
5/8! I'll pick up the other furnace tonight and check the tags. I've got a
friend that work for LG&E to see what size line he would suggest, but I hate
to ask him. I've been telling him I'd do some work on his truck, and just
can't seem to find the roundtuit!! Thanks again.

--
"Cartoons don't have any deep meaning.
They're just stupid drawings that give you a cheap laugh."
Homer Simpson
Jerry© The Phoneman®
"Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jerry Gilreath wrote:
> > My question
> > is, I've got a 5/8 inch gas line running to the garage, when I tap
> > off of it to run to the new furnace, is it big enough to run both
> > furnace's when and if they kick on at the same time?
>
>
> What kind of line is it? I don't know of any 5/8" pipe or tubing but
1/2"
> copper measures 5/8" OD. Are you measuring the OD?
>
> To determine if it is adequate you need to know the gas pressure and the
> consumption rate of the two heaters. I'd say it would be marginal with
that
> size though.
> Ed
> [email protected]
> http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
>
>

That will continue to be an issue (propane costs). I'm already
planning to add an outside wood boiler to the loop. I plan to run it
into my shop and maintain an insulated reservoir and then add a loop
into the house. In the house I have forced air so I'll add a coil in
the plenum.

I'm adding a room on to the house that I'll add some in-floor radiant.

I sure wish this was more mainstream technology. The Euros have been
doing it forever I guess. On a recent trip to Norway, every hotel I
stayed in had warm floors.

cheers.
jb

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 02:50:43 GMT, "ATP" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Biff Steele wrote:
>> I know it pbbly doesn't meet the budget requirments, and maybe I'm
>> just gloating a bit here, but I just built my dream shop and it's all
>> in-floor radiant heating. It cannot be beat - please don't argue with
>> me on that<G>. I heat a 600 sqft shop, a 720sq ft garage and the
>> basement under the 600 sqft shop with a 40 gallon water heater running
>> propane.
>>
>> No blower, no smell, no noise, no dust blowing around and unless I'm
>> handling heavy stuff, I can kick off my shoes, even last week when it
>> was -15F.
>>
>Radiant is the way to go. I installed it in my upstairs bathroom about 12
>years ago and the cats have really enjoyed it. The shop is next, I have to
>run a natural gas feed out to the garage, we're getting really hosed in this
>area on propane prices (one of the guys I work with just paid $4 per gallon
>for his propane)
>

Gerald Ross wrote:

> What do you do in the summer? Flip it over? No heating help needed here
> when it gets 100 deg. outside.

Same here. The most practical answer would seem to be a painted
plywood cover that fits over a pair of pins in the top of the box
and is secured at the bottom with a hasp and small padlock.

Actually, a vertically-oriented collector produces heat most
efficiently at winter solstice (and is /helped/ by snow on the
ground) and least efficiently at the summer solstice. Depending
on the glazing used (Google for "critical angle snell") and your
latitude, you may not need a cover. I'd go ahead and build the
collector, then add the cover if/when it seems appropriate - it's
a trivial retrofit.

My shop has a 12x45 door on the north side that mostly stays open
in the summer - when it's warm outside, it's warm inside.
--
Morris Dovey
West Des Moines, Iowa USA
C links at http://www.iedu.com/c
Read my lips: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> >
> > My problem is that here in Radburn, Fair Lawn NJ, there are severe
> > restrictions on what we can put up, and I fear that solar collectors
> > wouldn't be permitted on the roof or elsewhere.
> >
> > --
>
> Ah, yes, the Arbiters of Taste, also known as Architecture Review Boards and
> zoning.
>
> We in the US have forgotten what energy gluttons we are. It's so unlike the
> '70s and early '80s, after a couple of oil embargos, when the feds were
> giving states money to subsdize retrofitting of solar collection systems on
> houses. We did a couple hot water systems as pre-heaters for the domestic
> hot water, and 75% or better was rebated to the homeowner.
>
> Re: propane prices .... Here in the Philadelphia area there are two primary
> sources for propane: the guys who cater to gas grills and the bulk tanks.
> The gas grillers are paying ~$4/gallon, while the bulk deliveries can less
> than half of that. Why? Because that's what the market will bear.



I believe there's a bit more to it than that. The overhead in gas
grill propane tank filling is considerably higher per gallon delivered
than the overhead for someone delivering 300 gallons at a time.

"Jason Pope" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a single bay garage that id like to insulate and heat. Don't like
the
> idea of smelly kero or expensive electric and of course want to spend as
> little as possible. $100 Home Depot propane jobby or $100 bucks worth of
> electric base board and plan to up grade later. I will only be in the shop
a
> few hours a week.
>
I heated my house for a week with a 15 year old kerosene heater, and the
smell wasn't that bad.
Propane is nicer, but the gas and burner are both more expensive.
Baseboard has to be worst idea.

ATP wrote:

> run a natural gas feed out to the garage, we're getting really hosed in
> this area on propane prices (one of the guys I work with just paid $4 per
> gallon for his propane)

Good grief! The bad thing is he probably didn't know it was going to cost
$4 when he bought it either. I assume it's the same everywhere. Guy comes
around, fills the tank, hangs the bill on the door.

Yeowch. I'd just about have to call them and tell them to come pump it back
out. Then again, propane isn't my only source of heat.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

I know it pbbly doesn't meet the budget requirments, and maybe I'm
just gloating a bit here, but I just built my dream shop and it's all
in-floor radiant heating. It cannot be beat - please don't argue with
me on that<G>. I heat a 600 sqft shop, a 720sq ft garage and the
basement under the 600 sqft shop with a 40 gallon water heater running
propane.

No blower, no smell, no noise, no dust blowing around and unless I'm
handling heavy stuff, I can kick off my shoes, even last week when it
was -15F.

We installed all the hoses ourselves and spent 3 evenings hooking up
the brains of the system with the help of a friend. Most all parts
came from the local home-improvement shop.

You should give serious consideration to covering up any cement floor.
I don't care if you use the cheapest (which will actually be the
costliest in the long run) heater. You'll just be draining the heat
thru the cement floor and the wear on your legs and knees will be much
reduced. I had a big shop with cement floor and big wood furnace and I
just wouldn't spend evening time during the week out there because it
took too long to heat up. With all the heavy steel in the equipment
and the big cement slab, it was hard to get really warm out there. Now
I spend 3 hours minimum every night in my shop.

Anyway - this pbbly doesn't help but thought I'd share my ideas.

jb


On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:45:49 -0500, "Jason Pope" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I have a single bay garage that id like to insulate and heat. Don't like the
>idea of smelly kero or expensive electric and of course want to spend as
>little as possible. $100 Home Depot propane jobby or $100 bucks worth of
>electric base board and plan to up grade later. I will only be in the shop a
>few hours a week.
>

I guess so...but the hard work that got me here sucked too!<G>

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 23:59:59 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>"Biff Steele" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
>> No blower, no smell, no noise, no dust blowing around and unless I'm
>> handling heavy stuff, I can kick off my shoes, even last week when it
>> was -15F.
>
>> Anyway - this pbbly doesn't help but thought I'd share my ideas.
>
>OK, you suck!
>Ed
>

On Sat, 24 Jan 2004 17:47:28 GMT, Mark <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>Jerry Gilreath wrote:
>
>> Well no actually the house service is more like an inch or so, never
>> measured it. It's black iron. I've teed off it and ran the copper 3/4 out to
>> the garage where only the furnace lives.
>
>
>I hope you didn't run copper through the house, from what
>I've read ,IIRC, is all piping within the dwelling must be
>iron pipe.



not in Arizona. but AZ is a copper *producing* state. those kinds of
codes vary widely. In San Francisco I saw waste lines- 4 or 5 inch
ones- installed in copper. asked why not ABS or iron- answer was
codes. go figure.
Bridger

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 19:45:49 -0500, "Jason Pope" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I have a single bay garage that id like to insulate and heat. Don't like the
>idea of smelly kero or expensive electric and of course want to spend as
>little as possible. $100 Home Depot propane jobby or $100 bucks worth of
>electric base board and plan to up grade later. I will only be in the shop a
>few hours a week.
>

First, do a Google search (DAGS) on this, as it has been handled many
times on this newsgroup.

Next, I've used a kero fired salamander style heater for years in my
shop. It is heat that can be used anywhere. If you need to run heat
on a concrete slab some day, it would be a great choice. If you might
have need to heat another space away from your shop, it is a great
choice. If you buy a big enough unit, you can set up a spray booth
and have the heater run on the outside of the booth, while the fan is
running, and it will provide warm makeup air.

I have two CO detectors and feel that to be a minimum.

It does not stink if it is properly used and maintained.

On the coldest of days here in Pennsyltucky, I could fire up the
150,000 BTU salamander in my twelve hundred square foot shop, and
have the air temperature to sixty degrees in less than half an hour.

They can be put on a timer, of the kind that times any 120V appliance
plug and that gives you the ability to have the heater shut off after
you have left the shop - leaving finishes and glue enough drying time
to work properly. The timer can also be used to turn the heater on a
half hour or so before you come into the shop in the morning - which
can be a great comfort when the ambient temperature is in the single
digits.

There are those who would argue that the moisture created by the
combustion process is a problem. I have never found this to be so and
on the coldest days, the admixture of moisture to the air can be quite
pleasing.


Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret)
Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet
Website: http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

No, it's about 30 feet or so out to the garage, then it turns back into
black iron. It is in an unattached garage, and has nothing to do with the
houses' gas lines.


--
"Cartoons don't have any deep meaning.
They're just stupid drawings that give you a cheap laugh."
Homer Simpson
Jerry© The Phoneman®
"Mark" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Jerry Gilreath wrote:
>
> > Well no actually the house service is more like an inch or so, never
> > measured it. It's black iron. I've teed off it and ran the copper 3/4
out to
> > the garage where only the furnace lives.
>
>
> I hope you didn't run copper through the house, from what
> I've read ,IIRC, is all piping within the dwelling must be
> iron pipe.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Mark
>
> N.E. Ohio
>
>
> Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart.
> (S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain)
>
> When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure
> ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
>

Jerry Gilreath wrote:
> My question
> is, I've got a 5/8 inch gas line running to the garage, when I tap
> off of it to run to the new furnace, is it big enough to run both
> furnace's when and if they kick on at the same time?


What kind of line is it? I don't know of any 5/8" pipe or tubing but 1/2"
copper measures 5/8" OD. Are you measuring the OD?

To determine if it is adequate you need to know the gas pressure and the
consumption rate of the two heaters. I'd say it would be marginal with that
size though.
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

I think I could come up with something. There are a lot of good
diagrams if you search the net. The trouble is always taking those
nice little color diagrams and then making that pile of copper pipe
and fittings look the same.

My system is very simple and straight forward, even though there are 3
zones. Basically you lay the pipe. I have 2 zones where the pipe is in
concrete (upstairs garage and basement garage). Both slabs are
insulated on 5 sides by 2-inches of blue-dow.

One zone has the pipes tacked to the bottom of a sturdi-floor. That's
insulated by a 1/2" tuff-r (foil side up) friction fit between the
floor-joists and then fiberglass under that.

There is one pump on the cold-water return side so the pump is
basically pumping into the hot water heater (hwh). All return tubes
come into a diaphram. Each zone has it's own diaphram. These 3
diaphrams are then attached to a "zone valve". A zone valve is just a
valve that opens when hit with 12v. Each zone valve has an output
which turns on when the valve is opened. This is attached to a little
controller.

Coming out of the hwh the pipe goes first past a small expansion tank
(3 gallons??) then splits into diaphrams that split out to the floor
tubes. Each tube can be shut off independantly but the zones are not
segragated here.

The wiring is basically:

You have a 12v power supply which branches out to the thermostats.
When the thermo "makes", it signals out to valve which then opens.
When the valve opens, it signals out to the controller such that if
any one of the valves are open, the pump will run.

I'll try to take some pictures and make them available and maybe make
a slightly better tutorial.

The initial cost is not that high if you can assemble this yourself.
Paying a radiant guy is a lot of money. I was lucky, all I had to do
is let my neighbor tap into my dsl internet line. I think the pipe is
the most expensive part of the system, followed by the pump and valves
and then of course your power plant.

cheers.
jb

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 18:18:08 GMT, The Guy
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
>Morris Dovey wrote:

>
>Do you have any drawings / picts of the shop built collector system? I
>am on the nose end of planning a new shop and this type of info would be
>of interest.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Tim


Posted Via Usenet.com Premium Usenet Newsgroup Services
----------------------------------------------------------
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>
> My problem is that here in Radburn, Fair Lawn NJ, there are severe
> restrictions on what we can put up, and I fear that solar collectors
> wouldn't be permitted on the roof or elsewhere.
>
> --

Ah, yes, the Arbiters of Taste, also known as Architecture Review Boards and
zoning.

We in the US have forgotten what energy gluttons we are. It's so unlike the
'70s and early '80s, after a couple of oil embargos, when the feds were
giving states money to subsdize retrofitting of solar collection systems on
houses. We did a couple hot water systems as pre-heaters for the domestic
hot water, and 75% or better was rebated to the homeowner.

Re: propane prices .... Here in the Philadelphia area there are two primary
sources for propane: the guys who cater to gas grills and the bulk tanks.
The gas grillers are paying ~$4/gallon, while the bulk deliveries can less
than half of that. Why? Because that's what the market will bear. So if
you're going to use propane for heating, get a bulk tank.

Having built both hot air and hot water solar collection systems, I will
second Morris' general comments about placement, summer use, and such. My
personal preference is to use a radiant h/w heating system with a
"conventional" boiler (gas, oil, coal, dual fuel, whatever) and then have a
stone tank (the solar "battery" if you will) in place on the return side of
the heat loop. The battery is charged by the collectors, and sends
pre-heated water to the boiler. If there's enough heat in the battery, the
boiler doesn't fire. Of course, it sounds so simple here in the newsgroup,
and the implementation of such a system requires some control system and
safety engineering and $$, so a passive hot air collection (which what I
think Morris is describing) is a good way to take the chill out of a space.

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:59:34 -0600, Morris Dovey <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I installed a 6'x12' shop-built passive solar heating panel this
>fall on the south wall of my (50'x50'x16') shop. By itself, it
>has kept the temperature above freezing all winter. Before next
>winter I plan to install two additional panels to bring the
>daytime temperature up to a more or less consistant 70+ degree
>level. The gloat here is that once built and installed, the
>operating cost is zero.
>

I too would like any information that you'd care to share. How
expensive was this to build?

-Peter De Smidt

pdesmidt at tds dot net

Jerry Gilreath wrote:
> No, it's about 30 feet or so out to the garage, then it turns back into
> black iron. It is in an unattached garage, and has nothing to do with the
> houses' gas lines.



You tapped off the gas line after the meter and before the
line enters the house?





--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart.
(S. Clemens, A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure
ends the suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)