Ralph's is a SoCal grocery chain that was purchased a few years
ago by Kroger, a grocery chain based in Cincinnati, Ohio.
At first the changes in ownership were few and subtle starting
with private label canned products such as tomatoes being
introduced.
Recently have noticed the introduction of Kroger brand red meats
such as sausage.
Today, I stopped at Ralph's to get a ham, packed by a local
packing house, which was on sale.
Unfortunately, they were out of stock, but they did offer a rain
check,
which I accepted.
What was in stock, at a significantly higher price, was a SugarDale
ham.
I did a double take since SugarDale is a meat packer located in
Canton, Ohio, some 2,500 miles away from Los Angeles.
When I lived in NorthEast Ohio, SugarDale had a major portion of the
market including my business so I was comfortable with the brand.
Buying a SugarDale product in Los Angeles meant there was some
serious shipping involved.
Makes you think about all those 18 wheelers traversing those
interstates.
Lew
On 12/26/2014 3:27 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 12/26/2014 1:16 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> "G. Ross"<[email protected]> wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
>>>> [email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
>>>>> parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
>>>>> unless there is a derailment or breakdown.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
>>>> need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
>>>> passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
>>>> service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
>>>> it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.
>>>
>>> And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
>>> mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
>>> sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
>>> stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
>>> burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
>>> certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
>>> travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
>>> for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
>>> doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
>>> were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
>>> is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
>>> There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
>>> via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
>>> as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...
>>>
> ...
>
>> UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
>> LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
>> concrete for quite a few years now.
> ...
>
> That's not the part of TX _we_ think of as "West Texas"... :) From
> Midland/Odessa to Lubbock to Amarillo and Perryton is our idea. Not
> much dual track line along there.... :)
>
> --
>
The West starts in Ft. Worth and moves westward up through the Pan
Handle and down through the Big Bend - ending at the Rio Grande (or once
did ) in El Paso. Now the Rio is in Mexico and we end where
the President (Kennedy) decided where the river was 150 years before...
The buildings and businesses lost their places in life and were
forced to move out. I don't know what kind of deal they got, but their
placement was poor.
Martin
On 12/26/2014 12:40 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> "G. Ross"<[email protected]> wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
>>> parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
>>> unless there is a derailment or breakdown.
>>
>> Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
>> need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
>> passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
>> service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
>> it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.
>
> And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
> mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
> sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
> stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
> burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
> certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
> travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
> for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
> doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
> were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
> is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
> There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
> via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
> as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...
>
> --
Trains run east west from Dallas. The Main heavy line runs from San
Antonio and stays south and moves north of Big Bend on the line to the
Rio Grande and then north into El Paso. Was 3 oil/gas refineries there
and Army and Air Force bases. Then onward to LA or to Pheonix...
It runs north from LA though to (I want to say) Washington.
Martin
John McCoy wrote:
> [email protected] wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 10:48:09 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>>100-car trains (mostly container an car transporter) aren't uncommon
>>>around here (Atlanta) at all. I'd guess the average is 80ish (I often
>>>count when I'm waiting for one). Long trains make money.
>
>> A number of years back on a trip to the west coast we saw numerous
>> trains of over 200 cars - coal, grain, oil, lumber, automobiles,
>> containers - You name it - it was on those trains.Going both
>> directions too.
>
> As dpb noted above, the limiting factor on train length is
> the length of the passing sidings, which are typically
> 9,000 to 10,000 feet long. Canadian National is the
> exception, as they have found a way to schedule long trains
> to pass only at railyards where they have extra space. So
> those 200 car trains were almost certainly on CN.
>
> There's considerable debate in the industry whether trains
> of over 10,000 feet actually provide any advantage.
>
> John
The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
unless there is a derailment or breakdown.
--
GW Ross
It was a book to kill time for those
who liked it better dead.
On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:22:21 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 12/24/2014 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
>>>> California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
>>>> warning label.
>>>
>>> Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
>>> labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
>>> labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
>...
>
>> Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.
>
>Ayup...and it's only getting worse with their new rules for "importing"
>eggs as just a starting point...
When the San Andreas fault lets go at 9.something, California will no
longer be a problem. If it stays above water, it will be an island.
Probably useful as a prison island, as there will be no fresh water
other than captured rainwater - but they probably don't allow that...
On 12/24/2014 12:45 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:22:21 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 12/24/2014 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
>>>> On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
>>>>> California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
>>>>> warning label.
>>>>
>>>> Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
>>>> labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
>>>> labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
>> ...
>>
>>> Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.
>>
>> Ayup...and it's only getting worse with their new rules for "importing"
>> eggs as just a starting point...
>
> When the San Andreas fault lets go at 9.something, California will no
> longer be a problem. If it stays above water, it will be an island.
> Probably useful as a prison island, as there will be no fresh water
> other than captured rainwater - but they probably don't allow that...
>
Never lived there have you.
The Pacific plate contains mountains in northern and southern Ca. And
that plate is slipping North. SO when Mexico is west of Oregon, Where
the induction crease is, and what amount of Ca is under the volcanoes
that run along the pacific northwest we can talk about CA slipping.
That is in time for the Sun to expand beyond our orbit anyway.
Martin - lived on the Pacific Plate, worked on the North American Plate
for 17 years and three or so in So Ca working and living on the Pacific
Plate.
There is a neat mountain (rocky) that was split in two. One part is
400 miles north of the other. Both are parks and have real time drums
inking lines waiting for any movement.
I was there when Loma went up and the country called it San Fran earth
quake. Loma was 70 miles south and 4 miles from our old house (lived
through it)...
Martin
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> When the San Andreas fault lets go at 9.something, California will no
> longer be a problem. If it stays above water, it will be an island.
> Probably useful as a prison island, as there will be no fresh water
> other than captured rainwater - but they probably don't allow that...
My perception of California and the fault line has been ruined by the
Superman movie. I just can't think of the two together without thinking
about all the land in New Mexico and Arizona I should be buying. ;-)
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
"Leon" wrote:
> What do you suppose is in all of those other trucks Lew?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Since the port of Los Angeles/Long Beach is the largest port
of entry into the USA, the answer would be almost anything
found on the shelves of the big box stores.
What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
east out across the California desert.
I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.
They are visible from several miles and almost give the
appearance of being a model train layout.
After that, it would be the food grown in the central valley
headed east to the markets.
Lew
On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> "G. Ross"<[email protected]> wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
>>> parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
>>> unless there is a derailment or breakdown.
>>
>> Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
>> need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
>> passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
>> service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
>> it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.
>
> And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
> mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
> sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
> stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
> burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
> certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
> travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
> for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
> doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
> were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
> is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
> There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
> via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
> as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...
>
> --
UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.
I heard several years ago that their traffic would pick up from 80 to
100 trains a week - or was that a day? - through Casa Grande, AZ. It
does seem like one rolls through every 15 minutes or so.
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
On 12/26/2014 02:27 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 12/26/2014 1:16 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
>> On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>>> "G. Ross"<[email protected]> wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
>>>> [email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
>>>>> parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
>>>>> unless there is a derailment or breakdown.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
>>>> need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
>>>> passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
>>>> service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
>>>> it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.
>>>
>>> And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
>>> mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
>>> sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
>>> stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
>>> burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
>>> certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
>>> travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
>>> for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
>>> doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
>>> were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
>>> is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
>>> There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
>>> via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
>>> as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...
>>>
> ...
>
>> UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
>> LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
>> concrete for quite a few years now.
> ...
>
> That's not the part of TX _we_ think of as "West Texas"... :) From
> Midland/Odessa to Lubbock to Amarillo and Perryton is our idea. Not
> much dual track line along there.... :)
>
> --
>
I grew up in Western Washington State. I could never figure out why the
network news guys referred to Minnesota, Illinois, etc as being in the
"west". And then there's Northwestern University. Strange ...
--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
"John McCoy" wrote:
> Ah, now if you want strange, look up why Case Western Reserve
> University has "western reserve" in their name...
-----------------------------------------------------------
Pretty straight forward. NorthEast Ohio is in the lands of the
Western Reserve which was a set aside if lands in the
Connecticut colony weren't sufficient to cover land grants
granted there.
To this day, "The Lands of the Western Reserve" is still a popular
tag line for many businesses in NE Ohio.
Lew
"Lew Hodgett" wrote:
> "John McCoy" wrote:
>
>> Ah, now if you want strange, look up why Case Western Reserve
>> University has "western reserve" in their name...
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Pretty straight forward. NorthEast Ohio is in the lands of the
> Western Reserve which was a set aside if lands in the
> Connecticut colony weren't sufficient to cover land grants
> granted there.
>
> To this day, "The Lands of the Western Reserve" is still a popular
> tag line for many businesses in NE Ohio.
>
> Lew
----------------------------------------------
Forgot to mention that prior to the merger, Case and Western Reserve
were independent universities that shared many common facilities in
the area known as University Circle.
Also included in the physical area was the FP Bolton School of
Nursing..
Lew
"Dave from SoTex" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
>
> UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
> LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
> concrete for quite a few years now.
>
>
> UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the
> Southern
> Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for
> it between New Orleans and L.A.
> It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, something
> that has been common in Europe for decades, not very much in the U.S.
> I worked a summer as a laborer at the SP creosoting plant on the east
> end of their Englewood rail yard [Wallisville Road and Lockwood
> Drive]. Ugly, smelly stuff. Lots of wood though!
>
> Dave in soTex
>
It may be concrete ties are coming down in life cycle cost enough that
their advantages over wood ties are worth the investment, or the UP is
planning for possible higher speed rail. Train speeds much over highway
speeds (70 in many places, 75 in others) require the use of concrete
ties. This is just speculation on my part, and maybe a bit of hope.
Sure would be nice to have another option for those trips where another
state is just in the way. (IL to OK has MO in the way. I44 in MO is
interesting, though.)
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
*snip*
>
>> Train speeds much over highway
>> speeds (70 in many places, 75 in others) require the use of concrete
>> ties.
>
> No, you can use wood or concrete at any speed. It's the weight
> and number of trains that makes a difference, not the speed
> (speed limit for freight trains is 69mph, for passenger 79mph
> except for a handful of "high speed" lines. As you might guess
> by the weird numbers, those are set by the Federal government).
While that's true from a physics standpoint, I believe it's also a
government requirement that higher speeds be done only on concrete ties.
It's been a while since I came across it, but speeds above something like
100 mph required concrete ties and full grade separation.
Excuse the delay... I had to go watch a train. :-)
The explanation I read years ago about the speeds were based on highway
speeds + 15 mph, which is considered the threshold for wreckless driving
in some states. 65 + 15 = 80, minus 1 is 79. (Thus "safe". ha ha ha)
*snip*
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.
"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>> "G. Ross"<[email protected]> wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
>> [email protected]:
>>
>>> The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
>>> parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
>>> unless there is a derailment or breakdown.
>>
>> Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
>> need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
>> passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
>> service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
>> it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.
>
> And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
> mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
> sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
> stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
> burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
> certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
> travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
> for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
> doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
> were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
> is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
> There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
> via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
> as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...
>
> --
UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
concrete for quite a few years now.
UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the Southern
Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for it
between New Orleans and L.A.
It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, something that has
been common in Europe for decades, not very much in the U.S. I worked a
summer as a laborer at the SP creosoting plant on the east end of their
Englewood rail yard [Wallisville Road and Lockwood Drive]. Ugly, smelly
stuff. Lots of wood though!
Dave in soTex
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Leon" wrote:
>
>> What do you suppose is in all of those other trucks Lew?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Since the port of Los Angeles/Long Beach is the largest port
> of entry into the USA, the answer would be almost anything
> found on the shelves of the big box stores.
>
> What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
> east out across the California desert.
>
> I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.
>
> They are visible from several miles and almost give the
> appearance of being a model train layout.
>
> After that, it would be the food grown in the central valley
> headed east to the markets.
>
> Lew
I bet that is a site to see.. I have seen long line trains in the middle
of nowhere in west Texas and probably 100 car plus trains making round
trip journeys hauling coal from Wyoming to a coal fired electric plant just
SW of Houston.
On 12/27/2014 4:17 PM, dpb wrote:
> On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> ...
>
>> Surprised there's so much railroad interest here.
>
> Nothin' else much goin' on over the weekend... :)
>
>> Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
>> has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
>> west to La Junta.
>
> That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at
>
> <http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm>
>
> shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is the
> main truck route from Denver to Amarillo. I've driven that enough to
> have seen too many trains to know it isn't Santa Fe (BNSF, now, of
> course). Whether it was at one time or not I couldn't say but the
> Kansas Pacific doesn't sound right to me for the Amarillo-Denver eastern
> section, either...afaik they never ran anything except the northern
> branch thru Kit Carson and on to Denver and those environs north.
>
> It'd likely would have been about that time and possible was another one
> of the short-lived ideas to try to bring TX cattle up to the Denver
> markets that wouldn't have been a bad idea other than lack of anything
> else between to make up any other traffic.
>
> The branch I'm speaking of does, however, go on up past Lamar, not west
> to Pueblo...
>
> Again, this is all just what I "know" from dad/grandfather from growing
> up in SW KS. Grandfather worked for Santa Fe in Argentine (KS, now
> surrounded by KCK) until decided after a wheat harvest helping his
> brother that he like farming better than railroading so they homestead
> here together a few years later.
>
> There was the old K&O (KS and OK) shortline that later on tried to do a
> similar collection from the RI terminal in Liberal down to various spots
> in the OK panhandle east of the RI mainline that went on to Guymon and
> SW to Dalhart, TX. It lasted only a short time, too, for lack of enough
> density in grain/cattle production to make it pay. The old railbed
> location still shows as a hump in our dirt road on the way to town and
> is slicker 'n glass in wet weather owing to the hard clay/caliche they
> used in the roadbed grade...
>
> --
And like I said - the San Antonio to El Paso and
Ft. Worth /DFW to El Paso.
And El Paso runs to LA via Tucson. From there, north and south (Naval
bases) and ends in Washington (naval yard).
Martin - been in the San Francisco Naval Yard on UP tracks working on an
old Steam engine. I did like the working tables in there.
We had to re-build the boiler and was taking out the long long bolts
that hold it all together. They had to be burnt off and the bolts
pounded out. Welder on the outside...
We were inside with two other engines being looked at - the Naval/UP
setup was deeded to the non-profit club that works on keeping the steam
up and maintains the place in case a fast move in is needed. Navy was
moved out by the Demo's. I have a patch for the work and money donated.
Martin
"dpb" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
On 12/27/2014 8:42 AM, Dave from SoTex wrote:
...
> UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
> LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
> concrete for quite a few years now.
>
>
> UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the Southern
> Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for
> it between New Orleans and L.A.
> It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, ...
...
The UP line here is the old Rock Island mainline...they've been
upgrading it to continuous rail as well that runs Chicago-El Paso. I
can well imagine in the southern areas from New Orleans to Houston to
(say) San Antonio the concrete ties would pay where it's wetter; would
think W TX and across to LA "not so much". They're using traditional
wood ties up here on all I've seen, anyway...
Not that I would necessarily know but I am unaware of any concrete ties
in use in the Gulf coast region of Texas. Every time I see track
restoration in progress there are bundles of creosoted wood ties spread up
and down the track.
But there's very little dual line...
I _still_ don't think of El Paso to LA as lines _thru_ "West Texas"... :)
PS. BTW, I did find a different UP map that _does_ show the eastern
branch from Amarillo to Denver via Boise City, OK, Lamar, CO, so it is,
as I thought, UP. But there's no double track on that route all the way
to/from coal country that I'm aware of...
I don't know for a fact but that segment is very likely old Denver & Rio
Grande Western [parent company: Rio Grande Industries] which is where the
Phillip Anshutz reference comes into play.
the Anshutz family was the DRGW and in the 1980s [I believe] Phillip, as
head of the company, borrowed $1.07 billion to purchase the Southern
Pacific. That eventually lead to his merging it with the UP in the mid-90s.
As I recall, Anshutz got a seat on the board of directors.
Dave in SoTex
On 12/23/2014 8:35 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Ralph's is a SoCal grocery chain that was purchased a few years
> ago by Kroger, a grocery chain based in Cincinnati, Ohio.
>
> At first the changes in ownership were few and subtle starting
> with private label canned products such as tomatoes being
> introduced.
>
> Recently have noticed the introduction of Kroger brand red meats
> such as sausage.
>
> Today, I stopped at Ralph's to get a ham, packed by a local
> packing house, which was on sale.
>
> Unfortunately, they were out of stock, but they did offer a rain
> check,
> which I accepted.
>
> What was in stock, at a significantly higher price, was a SugarDale
> ham.
>
> I did a double take since SugarDale is a meat packer located in
> Canton, Ohio, some 2,500 miles away from Los Angeles.
>
> When I lived in NorthEast Ohio, SugarDale had a major portion of the
> market including my business so I was comfortable with the brand.
>
> Buying a SugarDale product in Los Angeles meant there was some
> serious shipping involved.
>
> Makes you think about all those 18 wheelers traversing those
> interstates.
>
> Lew
>
What do you suppose is in all of those other trucks Lew?
FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
warning label.
On 12/28/2014 8:48 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 12/27/2014 9:20 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
>> On 12/27/2014 4:17 PM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Surprised there's so much railroad interest here.
>>>
>>> Nothin' else much goin' on over the weekend... :)
>>>
>>>> Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
>>>> has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
>>>> west to La Junta.
>>>
>>> That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at
>>>
>>> <http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm>
>>>
>>> shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is the
>>> main truck route from Denver to Amarillo. I've driven that enough to
>>> have seen too many trains to know it isn't Santa Fe (BNSF, now, of
> ...
>
>> And like I said - the San Antonio to El Paso and
>> Ft. Worth /DFW to El Paso.
>>
>> And El Paso runs to LA via Tucson. From there, north and south (Naval
>> bases) and ends in Washington (naval yard).
> ...
>
> All of which is true but doesn't much correlate w/ the sidebar
> discussion of the routes thru W TX and to/from the coal regions of the
> Powder Basin and environs...
>
> --
>
But all you talked about in West Texas was the way up north pan handle
stuff. The Ice and snow route.
Martin
wrote in message news:[email protected]...
On Wed, 24 Dec 2014 12:22:21 -0600, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 12/24/2014 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
>>>> California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
>>>> warning label.
>>>
>>> Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
>>> labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
>>> labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
>...
>
>> Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.
>
>Ayup...and it's only getting worse with their new rules for "importing"
>eggs as just a starting point...
When the San Andreas fault lets go at 9.something, California will no
longer be a problem. If it stays above water, it will be an island.
Probably useful as a prison island, as there will be no fresh water
other than captured rainwater - but they probably don't allow that...
It's not too late to get some beachfront property in Yuma.
Dave in SoTex
On 12/28/2014 4:54 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
> John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
> *snip*
>>
>>> Train speeds much over highway
>>> speeds (70 in many places, 75 in others) require the use of concrete
>>> ties.
>>
>> No, you can use wood or concrete at any speed. It's the weight
>> and number of trains that makes a difference, not the speed
>> (speed limit for freight trains is 69mph, for passenger 79mph
>> except for a handful of "high speed" lines. As you might guess
>> by the weird numbers, those are set by the Federal government).
>
> While that's true from a physics standpoint, I believe it's also a
> government requirement that higher speeds be done only on concrete ties.
> It's been a while since I came across it, but speeds above something like
> 100 mph required concrete ties and full grade separation.
>
> Excuse the delay... I had to go watch a train. :-)
>
> The explanation I read years ago about the speeds were based on highway
> speeds + 15 mph, which is considered the threshold for wreckless driving
> in some states. 65 + 15 = 80, minus 1 is 79. (Thus "safe". ha ha ha)
That's really confusing to me, Puckdropper. I would think that the
faster you go, the less chance you have of being "wreckless." Hell, I
see the way some of these idiots drive at less than 20 miles per hour
and they STILL have wrecks. They'd be reckless if they were parked in a
garage.<g>
(sorry, couldn't resist!"
On 12/23/2014 8:35 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> Ralph's is a SoCal grocery chain that was purchased a few years
> ago by Kroger, a grocery chain based in Cincinnati, Ohio.
>
> At first the changes in ownership were few and subtle starting
> with private label canned products such as tomatoes being
> introduced.
>
> Recently have noticed the introduction of Kroger brand red meats
> such as sausage.
>
> Today, I stopped at Ralph's to get a ham, packed by a local
> packing house, which was on sale.
>
> Unfortunately, they were out of stock, but they did offer a rain
> check,
> which I accepted.
>
> What was in stock, at a significantly higher price, was a SugarDale
> ham.
>
> I did a double take since SugarDale is a meat packer located in
> Canton, Ohio, some 2,500 miles away from Los Angeles.
>
> When I lived in NorthEast Ohio, SugarDale had a major portion of the
> market including my business so I was comfortable with the brand.
>
> Buying a SugarDale product in Los Angeles meant there was some
> serious shipping involved.
>
> Makes you think about all those 18 wheelers traversing those
> interstates.
>
> Lew
>
>
All it takes is one rail car full and it goes into the local store house
that serves the region. Let trucks do the short haul.
Martin
"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:549b2a33$0$44734
[email protected]:
> What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
> east out across the California desert.
>
> I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.
9,000 to 10,000 feet would be typical for a train on the
western railroads. If it's bulk, like coal, 10,000 tons;
if it's cans (intermodal containers) maybe 6,000 tons or
less.
And yes, when you see one of those double-stack container
trains in open country like the desert, it looks like the
Great Wall of China moving across the landscape.
John
[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 10:48:09 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>>100-car trains (mostly container an car transporter) aren't uncommon
>>around here (Atlanta) at all. I'd guess the average is 80ish (I often
>>count when I'm waiting for one). Long trains make money.
> A number of years back on a trip to the west coast we saw numerous
> trains of over 200 cars - coal, grain, oil, lumber, automobiles,
> containers - You name it - it was on those trains.Going both
> directions too.
As dpb noted above, the limiting factor on train length is
the length of the passing sidings, which are typically
9,000 to 10,000 feet long. Canadian National is the
exception, as they have found a way to schedule long trains
to pass only at railyards where they have extra space. So
those 200 car trains were almost certainly on CN.
There's considerable debate in the industry whether trains
of over 10,000 feet actually provide any advantage.
John
"G. Ross" <[email protected]> wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
[email protected]:
> The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
> parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
> unless there is a derailment or breakdown.
Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.
John
Doug Winterburn <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> On 12/26/2014 02:27 PM, dpb wrote:
>> That's not the part of TX _we_ think of as "West Texas"... :) From
>> Midland/Odessa to Lubbock to Amarillo and Perryton is our idea. Not
>> much dual track line along there.... :)
> I grew up in Western Washington State. I could never figure out why
> the network news guys referred to Minnesota, Illinois, etc as being
> in the "west". And then there's Northwestern University. Strange ...
Ah, now if you want strange, look up why Case Western Reserve
University has "western reserve" in their name...
John
"Dave from SoTex" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the
> Southern
> Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for
> it between New Orleans and L.A.
The SP was a single track railroad. All the double track
between LA and El Paso is recent, stuff UP has put in since
the intermodal business between LA and Chicago took off.
Double track ends at El Paso because the UP splits three ways
there - the Rock Island line thru Amarillo to Chicago, the
Missouri Pacific line to Dallas, and the SP line to Houston
and New Orleans.
> It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, something
> that has been common in Europe for decades, not very much in the U.S.
> I worked a summer as a laborer at the SP creosoting plant on the east
> end of their Englewood rail yard [Wallisville Road and Lockwood
> Drive]. Ugly, smelly stuff. Lots of wood though!
Axle loads in Europe are far far less than in the US (one
axle of a US freight car carries more weight than an entire
car in Europe). It took a while to develop a technology to
make concrete ties that would withstand those loads. That
said, concrete ties have been the norm for mainline track
in the US for the last 20 years or so. Wood is still preferred
for secondary lines.
John
dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 12/27/2014 12:30 PM, Dave in Texas wrote:
>> "dpb" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> ...
>
> ...
>
>> PS. BTW, I did find a different UP map that _does_ show the eastern
>> branch from Amarillo to Denver via Boise City, OK, Lamar, CO, so it
>> is, as I thought, UP. But there's no double track on that route all
>> the way to/from coal country that I'm aware of...
>>
>> I don't know for a fact but that segment is very likely old Denver &
>> Rio Grande Western [parent company: Rio Grande Industries] which is
>> where the Phillip Anshutz reference comes into play.
> ...
>
> I don't know, either, but I doubt it was D&RGW on the line from Denver
> to Amarillo, via Lamar...the Pueblo/Denver branch on west has much
> higher likelihood as Pueblo was early steel/coal area but I'd be
> extremely surprised to learn that the eastern line has been around
> anyways nearly that long bac...but, I've not done any looking into it
> at all.
Surprised there's so much railroad interest here.
Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
west to La Junta.
The Rio Grande doesn't go anywhere east of the foothills - it
got as far south as Trinidad then found itself blocked by the
Santa Fe. The Rio Grande (now UP) and the Santa Fe (now BNSF)
parallel each other from Denver to Pueblo, they share each
other's track so it's effectively double track.
The line from middle of nowhere up thru Limon to Denver was
originally the Kansas Pacific, which was basically a stock
promoters scam back in 1869. UP took it over in 1880.
John
dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>> Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
>> has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
>> west to La Junta.
>
> That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at
>
> <http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm>
>
> shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is
> the main truck route from Denver to Amarillo. I've driven that enough
> to have seen too many trains to know it isn't Santa Fe (BNSF, now, of
> course). Whether it was at one time or not I couldn't say but the
> Kansas Pacific doesn't sound right to me for the Amarillo-Denver
> eastern section, either...afaik they never ran anything except the
> northern branch thru Kit Carson and on to Denver and those environs
> north.
>
> It'd likely would have been about that time and possible was another
> one of the short-lived ideas to try to bring TX cattle up to the
> Denver markets that wouldn't have been a bad idea other than lack of
> anything else between to make up any other traffic.
>
> The branch I'm speaking of does, however, go on up past Lamar, not
> west to Pueblo...
OK, now I'm confused. Usually when I go that way I go up thru
Dalhart and across the corner of NM to I-25, but I have taken
the US287 route a couple of times. I'm pretty sure there isn't
a railroad paralleling US287 at Lamar...BNSF (with UP trackage
rights) parallels it from Amarillo to just over the CO border
where it bends off to La Junta (and eventually Pueblo), which
I'm pretty sure is the line the UP map shows. And at Kit Carson
you pick up the KP line up to Limon and Denver. But in between,
other than crossing the Santa Fe and Missouri Pacific lines,
I don't recall there being any railroad alongside US287.
John
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> It may be concrete ties are coming down in life cycle cost enough that
> their advantages over wood ties are worth the investment, or the UP is
> planning for possible higher speed rail.
As I noted earlier, concrete ties have been the norm for mainlines
for the last 20 years or so. With a heavily used track, the rail
cuts into wood ties and they have to be replaced every couple of
years. The counterpart to that is that concrete ties are very
stiff, so the subroadbed has to be built very strong, so that the
ties don't flex at all. For a less-used secondary line, it makes
more sense to put less money into the roadbed, and use wood ties
which will flex without cracking.
> Train speeds much over highway
> speeds (70 in many places, 75 in others) require the use of concrete
> ties.
No, you can use wood or concrete at any speed. It's the weight
and number of trains that makes a difference, not the speed
(speed limit for freight trains is 69mph, for passenger 79mph
except for a handful of "high speed" lines. As you might guess
by the weird numbers, those are set by the Federal government).
> Sure would be nice to have another option for those trips where
> another state is just in the way. (IL to OK has MO in the way. I44
> in MO is interesting, though.)
With airline seats being designed for 12 year old children, yeah,
having an adult alternative would certainly be nice :-)
John
dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> That would be US56 from Clayton to Raton, I presume? You stopped at Mt
> Capulin?
Yes! Boy, was that a surprise the first time I went that way.
Who'd expect to find a volcano in the middle of New Mexico?
But definately very much worth stopping and taking the walk
up to the top.
(that's actually US87...north out of Amarillo, take a left
at Dumas (and swear at the traffic light), thru Dalhart,
Texline, Clayton, Capulin, and eventually Raton. As a
Southern boy, it always surprises me to be going thru
cotton fields up that way).
John
Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> John McCoy <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
> *snip*
>>
>>> Train speeds much over highway
>>> speeds (70 in many places, 75 in others) require the use of concrete
>>> ties.
>>
>> No, you can use wood or concrete at any speed. It's the weight
>> and number of trains that makes a difference, not the speed
>> (speed limit for freight trains is 69mph, for passenger 79mph
>> except for a handful of "high speed" lines. As you might guess
>> by the weird numbers, those are set by the Federal government).
>
> While that's true from a physics standpoint, I believe it's also a
> government requirement that higher speeds be done only on concrete
> ties. It's been a while since I came across it, but speeds above
> something like 100 mph required concrete ties and full grade
> separation.
Hmm, not sure if that's a FRA requirement or not - it's been a
while since I was involved with that stuff, and there's two
different things the government calls "high speed" (one being
anything over the normal 79mph limit, and the other being Acela
style 150mph speeds) which have different rules.
Definately all forms of high speed require enhanced signalling
and grade crossing control, with Acela speeds needing grade
seperation. And now, of course, PTC will be required.
As a practical matter, you'd use concrete ties, whether required
by regulation or not.
> The explanation I read years ago about the speeds were based on
> highway speeds + 15 mph, which is considered the threshold for
> wreckless driving in some states. 65 + 15 = 80, minus 1 is 79. (Thus
> "safe". ha ha ha)
In the case of trains it's because the Federal regs use the
phrase "less than". Passenger trains must operate at less
than 80mph. So the railroads, logically enough, set 79mph as
the speed limit. In cases where the Fed rules don't apply,
they use multiples of 5 like everyone else.
John
dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 12/29/2014 8:57 AM, dpb wrote:
> ...
>
>> 87/64 run together from Clayton to Raton. 64 then goes back south and
>> west on over to Cimarron while 87 follows I25 north. Since we are
>> used to 64 in OK far more than 87, that's the nomenclature we think
>> of it as... :)
>
> Re-reading earlier posting I see I did flip 56 and 64, though...56
> goes on to Springer while 64 goes northwest to Raton from Clayton...
Those overlapping route numbers are a pain...at least on a
paper map they print them both, I dunno how people that
depend on Google Maps and the like survive, because they
often only show one. (worst is in NC where I-74 overlaps
with US74, something the designers of the Interstate system
specifically set things up to avoid, but apparently the NC
DOT didn't read the manual).
> Sometime if you have the time to take another hour or so driving time
> and it's been a good year moisture-wise, try taking NM 72 east out of
> Raton and just follow it along the Johnson Mesa/Plateau. It'll end up
> taking you to Folsom and then you can take 456 (caution, it's got
> about 20 mi of gravel road/track; avoid on a rainy day) along the
> Black Mesa and end up in Boise City or go on south there and come back
> to 64/87 at Des Moines just east of Capulin. Gorgeous country with
> miles you'll see nary a telephone post, even.
Noted. I hope some day to be able to spend more time out
there just looking around...I'd like to take US60 across
thru Clovis and Belen and then look around Albuquerque.
Was out there on business years ago and couldn't make any
time for sightseeing...
John
dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> On 12/29/2014 5:32 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>
> Spent quite a lot of time w/ Duke Power as started w/ the reactor
> vendor for the Oconee station and was there for startup of Unit 1 then
> went the consulting gig but continued to work for the B&W owners
> utilities for years afterwards before eventually drifting over to
> mostly fossil as nuclear work became more competitive and tiring to
> deal with the increasing bureaucracy burdens...
I hear you on the regulatory burden - altho in fairness, the
scale of the problem when things go wrong with nuclear does
justify an excess of caution.
On the fossil side, I recall Duke being noteworthy for the
high efficiency of their powerplants back in the early 80s.
Dunno if that's still the case, or if everyone else has
caught up.
> Just out of curiosity, where in S TX are you starting from???
> Possible to suggest other touring guidelines, perhaps knowing starting
> point... :)
I'm actually starting from the pointy end of Florida (Ft
Lauderdale) :-)
I have family in Austin, and family in Ft Collins, and every
so often I take I long vacation and drive to both. There's
still a lot of alternative routes for sightseeing out west
(I've pretty much worn out all the alternatives in Fla).
John
On 12/31/2014 7:25 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> dpb <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 12/29/2014 5:32 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>>
>> Spent quite a lot of time w/ Duke Power as started w/ the reactor
>> vendor for the Oconee station and was there for startup of Unit 1 then
>> went the consulting gig but continued to work for the B&W owners
>> utilities for years afterwards before eventually drifting over to
>> mostly fossil as nuclear work became more competitive and tiring to
>> deal with the increasing bureaucracy burdens...
>
> I hear you on the regulatory burden - altho in fairness, the
> scale of the problem when things go wrong with nuclear does
> justify an excess of caution.
>
> On the fossil side, I recall Duke being noteworthy for the
> high efficiency of their powerplants back in the early 80s.
> Dunno if that's still the case, or if everyone else has
> caught up.
>
>> Just out of curiosity, where in S TX are you starting from???
>> Possible to suggest other touring guidelines, perhaps knowing starting
>> point... :)
>
> I'm actually starting from the pointy end of Florida (Ft
> Lauderdale) :-)
>
> I have family in Austin, and family in Ft Collins, and every
> so often I take I long vacation and drive to both. There's
> still a lot of alternative routes for sightseeing out west
> (I've pretty much worn out all the alternatives in Fla).
>
> John
>
And Wood along the way to bring home... :-) That was my Uncles ploy.
It didn't work since Aunt brought home what she wanted as well.
I'd send him home with 40 or 50 pounds - but my trees that were cut
were always small. He wanted 24-36" diameters. He turned Hats!
Martin
On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
> ...
>
>> FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
>> California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
>> warning label.
>
> Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
> labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
> labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
>
> --
>
>
Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.
On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 05:56:15 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "Leon" wrote:
>>
>>> What do you suppose is in all of those other trucks Lew?
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Since the port of Los Angeles/Long Beach is the largest port
>> of entry into the USA, the answer would be almost anything
>> found on the shelves of the big box stores.
>>
>> What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
>> east out across the California desert.
>>
>> I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.
>>
>> They are visible from several miles and almost give the
>> appearance of being a model train layout.
>>
>> After that, it would be the food grown in the central valley
>> headed east to the markets.
>>
>> Lew
>
>I bet that is a site to see.. I have seen long line trains in the middle
>of nowhere in west Texas and probably 100 car plus trains making round
>trip journeys hauling coal from Wyoming to a coal fired electric plant just
>SW of Houston.
100-car trains (mostly container an car transporter) aren't uncommon
around here (Atlanta) at all. I'd guess the average is 80ish (I often
count when I'm waiting for one). Long trains make money.
On 12/25/2014 8:09 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in news:549b2a33$0$44734
> [email protected]:
>
>> What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
>> east out across the California desert.
>>
>> I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.
>
> 9,000 to 10,000 feet would be typical for a train on the
> western railroads. If it's bulk, like coal, 10,000 tons;
> if it's cans (intermodal containers) maybe 6,000 tons or
> less.
>
> And yes, when you see one of those double-stack container
> trains in open country like the desert, it looks like the
> Great Wall of China moving across the landscape.
>
> John
>
This town is on the UP going from Houston to Dallas for east/west
and on north as needed. I don't live very close, but want to say
we have 8 every 24 hours. Many petrochemical and containers.
Martin
On 12/23/2014 8:35 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
...
> I did a double take since SugarDale is a meat packer located in
> Canton, Ohio, some 2,500 miles away from Los Angeles.
...
> Buying a SugarDale product in Los Angeles meant there was some
> serious shipping involved.
...
Pales in comparison to shipping Australian beef in...or US beef/pork to
Japan/China...
National Beef here ships 90% of "specialty cuts" to Japan from SW KS.
--
On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
...
> FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
> California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
> warning label.
Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
--
On 12/24/2014 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 12/24/2014 9:08 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 12/24/2014 8:58 AM, Leon wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> FWIW way over here in east Texas we get a load of products from
>>> California. I know this because everything from California has a cancer
>>> warning label.
>>
>> Not necessarily from CA at all; manufacturers put the CA-silliness
>> labels on all their product because it's cheaper than having multiple
>> labels and keeping track of what gets shipped where...
...
> Oh, so California has mad this a problem for the whole country.
Ayup...and it's only getting worse with their new rules for "importing"
eggs as just a starting point...
--
On 12/25/2014 9:48 AM, [email protected] wrote:
...
> 100-car trains (mostly container an car transporter) aren't uncommon
> around here (Atlanta) at all. I'd guess the average is 80ish (I often
> count when I'm waiting for one). Long trains make money.
We're on mainline of UP and they run 'em as long as they have necessary
siding space for...at the moment they're averaging 18 long-route thru
trains daily...making for a lot of time at the crossing on main street;
fortunately they did build one overpass on east side of town a number of
years ago when rerouted the NS highway around town...
--
On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
> "G. Ross"<[email protected]> wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
> [email protected]:
>
>> The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
>> parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
>> unless there is a derailment or breakdown.
>
> Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
> need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
> passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
> service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
> it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.
And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there.
It doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...
--
On 12/26/2014 1:16 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
> On 12/26/2014 11:40 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 12/26/2014 11:49 AM, John McCoy wrote:
>>> "G. Ross"<[email protected]> wrote in news:36idnbiF8tme8gDJnZ2dnUU7-U-
>>> [email protected]:
>>>
>>>> The long coal trains in west Texas someone mentioned travel on
>>>> parallel tracks so they don't have to worry about sidings and such
>>>> unless there is a derailment or breakdown.
>>>
>>> Actually, that's not so - slower trains, such as coal trains,
>>> need to be overtaken by faster trains (container trains,
>>> passenger trains if it happens to be a line with Amtrak
>>> service, etc). Having double track makes life easier, but
>>> it doesn't eliminate the need for sidings.
>>
>> And, I don't think there's all that much of W Texas that has dual
>> mainline, anyway, really. I couldn't find a UP route map with
>> sufficient detail in a quick search to confirm, but I've driven the
>> stretch north of Amarillo where there's a goodly-size coal-fired plant
>> burning Powder Basin coal and seen them on sidings there...and there's
>> certainly no double line when get on up across E Colorado. I also
>> travel US 287 from Lamar thru Eads to Limon as it cuts off the 90 corner
>> for us to get to Denver and there's a couple-mile siding along there. It
>> doesn't show on UP route map that I saw but I don't think those maps
>> were any but main routes; not every mile of track. Or, it could be that
>> is an interconnection local line across there; I've not investigated.
>> There's another coal-fired plant W of Garden City, KS, that gets service
>> via an interconnect to the Santa Fe that comes from up across that way
>> as well to/from Powder Basin and/or Wyoming...
>>
...
> UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
> LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
> concrete for quite a few years now.
...
That's not the part of TX _we_ think of as "West Texas"... :) From
Midland/Odessa to Lubbock to Amarillo and Perryton is our idea. Not
much dual track line along there.... :)
--
On 12/27/2014 8:42 AM, Dave from SoTex wrote:
...
> UP has dual track on most if not all of the route between El Paso and
> LA. They've been doing ballast work and replacing ties - much with
> concrete for quite a few years now.
>
>
> UP acquired a lot of that double track when it swallowed the Southern
> Pacific [thank you, Phillip Anshutz]. That would certainly account for
> it between New Orleans and L.A.
> It is surprising they are going concrete with their ties, ...
...
The UP line here is the old Rock Island mainline...they've been
upgrading it to continuous rail as well that runs Chicago-El Paso. I
can well imagine in the southern areas from New Orleans to Houston to
(say) San Antonio the concrete ties would pay where it's wetter; would
think W TX and across to LA "not so much". They're using traditional
wood ties up here on all I've seen, anyway...
But there's very little dual line...
I _still_ don't think of El Paso to LA as lines _thru_ "West Texas"... :)
PS. BTW, I did find a different UP map that _does_ show the eastern
branch from Amarillo to Denver via Boise City, OK, Lamar, CO, so it is,
as I thought, UP. But there's no double track on that route all the way
to/from coal country that I'm aware of...
--
On 12/27/2014 9:38 AM, John McCoy wrote:
...
> Double track ends at El Paso because the UP splits three ways
> there - the Rock Island line thru Amarillo to Chicago, the
> Missouri Pacific line to Dallas, and the SP line to Houston
> and New Orleans.
...
As noted earlier, we're on the old Rock Island line--in fact, town
exists where it does as this was the terminus for a number of years
before opening Indian Territory (Oklahoma) to let them continue building
across it.
--
On 12/27/2014 12:30 PM, Dave in Texas wrote:
> "dpb" wrote in message news:[email protected]...
...
...
> PS. BTW, I did find a different UP map that _does_ show the eastern
> branch from Amarillo to Denver via Boise City, OK, Lamar, CO, so it is,
> as I thought, UP. But there's no double track on that route all the way
> to/from coal country that I'm aware of...
>
> I don't know for a fact but that segment is very likely old Denver & Rio
> Grande Western [parent company: Rio Grande Industries] which is where
> the Phillip Anshutz reference comes into play.
...
I don't know, either, but I doubt it was D&RGW on the line from Denver
to Amarillo, via Lamar...the Pueblo/Denver branch on west has much
higher likelihood as Pueblo was early steel/coal area but I'd be
extremely surprised to learn that the eastern line has been around
anyways nearly that long bac...but, I've not done any looking into it at
all.
--
On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
...
> Surprised there's so much railroad interest here.
Nothin' else much goin' on over the weekend... :)
> Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
> has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
> west to La Junta.
That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at
<http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm>
shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is the
main truck route from Denver to Amarillo. I've driven that enough to
have seen too many trains to know it isn't Santa Fe (BNSF, now, of
course). Whether it was at one time or not I couldn't say but the
Kansas Pacific doesn't sound right to me for the Amarillo-Denver eastern
section, either...afaik they never ran anything except the northern
branch thru Kit Carson and on to Denver and those environs north.
It'd likely would have been about that time and possible was another one
of the short-lived ideas to try to bring TX cattle up to the Denver
markets that wouldn't have been a bad idea other than lack of anything
else between to make up any other traffic.
The branch I'm speaking of does, however, go on up past Lamar, not west
to Pueblo...
Again, this is all just what I "know" from dad/grandfather from growing
up in SW KS. Grandfather worked for Santa Fe in Argentine (KS, now
surrounded by KCK) until decided after a wheat harvest helping his
brother that he like farming better than railroading so they homestead
here together a few years later.
There was the old K&O (KS and OK) shortline that later on tried to do a
similar collection from the RI terminal in Liberal down to various spots
in the OK panhandle east of the RI mainline that went on to Guymon and
SW to Dalhart, TX. It lasted only a short time, too, for lack of enough
density in grain/cattle production to make it pay. The old railbed
location still shows as a hump in our dirt road on the way to town and
is slicker 'n glass in wet weather owing to the hard clay/caliche they
used in the roadbed grade...
--
On 12/27/2014 7:39 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> dpb<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>
>>> Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
>>> has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
>>> west to La Junta.
>>
>> That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at
>>
>> <http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm>
>>
>> shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is
...
>> The branch I'm speaking of does, however, go on up past Lamar, not
>> west to Pueblo...
>
> OK, now I'm confused. Usually when I go that way I go up thru
> Dalhart and across the corner of NM to I-25, but I have taken
> the US287 route a couple of times. I'm pretty sure there isn't
> a railroad paralleling US287 at Lamar...BNSF (with UP trackage
> rights) parallels it from Amarillo to just over the CO border
> where it bends off to La Junta (and eventually Pueblo), which
> I'm pretty sure is the line the UP map shows. And at Kit Carson
> you pick up the KP line up to Limon and Denver. But in between,
> other than crossing the Santa Fe and Missouri Pacific lines,
> I don't recall there being any railroad alongside US287.
Coming from farther south, that makes sense...we're starting from north
of Dalhart (but east, of course), so we have to follow the N-S routes of
which there are several choices but absolutely no mileage difference
until get up to US50 to Lamar to pick up 287 to cut off the corner.
Otherwise it's straight N all the way to Colby to I70 which are the two
sides of the triangle...
IIRC, it's several miles N of Lamar before you can see any signs and
then it's not directly alongside but off to the west. Good chance never
notice it unless you see the trains; it's that far enough away from the
actual road...
I couldn't seem to find a map that has both rail and roads on it any
more to see more detail...
--
On 12/27/2014 9:20 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
> On 12/27/2014 4:17 PM, dpb wrote:
>> On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> Surprised there's so much railroad interest here.
>>
>> Nothin' else much goin' on over the weekend... :)
>>
>>> Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
>>> has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
>>> west to La Junta.
>>
>> That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at
>>
>> <http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm>
>>
>> shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is the
>> main truck route from Denver to Amarillo. I've driven that enough to
>> have seen too many trains to know it isn't Santa Fe (BNSF, now, of
...
> And like I said - the San Antonio to El Paso and
> Ft. Worth /DFW to El Paso.
>
> And El Paso runs to LA via Tucson. From there, north and south (Naval
> bases) and ends in Washington (naval yard).
...
All of which is true but doesn't much correlate w/ the sidebar
discussion of the routes thru W TX and to/from the coal regions of the
Powder Basin and environs...
--
On 12/27/2014 7:39 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> dpb<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 12/27/2014 2:25 PM, John McCoy wrote:
>
>>> Anyway, the line from Amarillo up toward Lamar is and always
>>> has been Santa Fe - it doesn't actually go to Lamar, it bends
>>> west to La Junta.
>>
>> That's the one the UP CO map shows, the nationwide one at
>>
>> <http://www.up.com/aboutup/reference/maps/system_map/index.htm>
>>
>> shows both. The eastern branch basically parallels US 287 which is
...
Now I've been thinking...I'm not sure but what I've not seen both BNSF
and UP power on that stretch...but can't say for absolute certain. Now
I'm itching for another trip... :)
> OK, now I'm confused. Usually when I go that way I go up thru
> Dalhart and across the corner of NM to I-25, but I have taken
> the US287 route a couple of times...
That would be US56 from Clayton to Raton, I presume? You stopped at Mt
Capulin? It's worth the time imo if haven't. Hadn't been up to peak
since was a kid until last fall took a couple of the grandkids up to
Eagle Nest/Red River for a while--they only know the Smokies as
mountains being in Raleigh so stopped by on the way albeit it's a little
out of the way to Cimarron to go north to Raton and back down to get to
Eagle Nest. Wife's family has ground west of Clayton that we're the
operators for so we head out there fairly frequently--it's out in middle
of nowhere but for some mysterious reason NM has a 55 mph speed limit on
US 64 on over to Springer--that stretch takes, it seems, forever at that
rate. Sometimes for some variety we'll take a NM road from Roy on over
to Wagon Mound and up from there; it crosses the upper end of the N
Canadian across a nice little canyon for a scenic breakup on the way.
Going up to Raton at least gets one closer to the Johnson and Black
Mesas and the scattered foothills sooner than on over to Springer for a
little more diversion...
--
On 12/28/2014 4:30 PM, John McCoy wrote:
> dpb<[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>
>> That would be US56 from Clayton to Raton, I presume? You stopped at Mt
>> Capulin?
>
> Yes! Boy, was that a surprise the first time I went that way.
> Who'd expect to find a volcano in the middle of New Mexico?
> But definately very much worth stopping and taking the walk
> up to the top.
Good...just thought I'd mention it as being worth the stop if you had
always just driven on by...
> (that's actually US87...north out of Amarillo, take a left
> at Dumas (and swear at the traffic light), thru Dalhart,
> Texline, Clayton, Capulin, and eventually Raton. As a
> Southern boy, it always surprises me to be going thru
> cotton fields up that way).
87/64 run together from Clayton to Raton. 64 then goes back south and
west on over to Cimarron while 87 follows I25 north. Since we are used
to 64 in OK far more than 87, that's the nomenclature we think of it
as... :)
--
On 12/29/2014 8:57 AM, dpb wrote:
...
> 87/64 run together from Clayton to Raton. 64 then goes back south and
> west on over to Cimarron while 87 follows I25 north. Since we are used
> to 64 in OK far more than 87, that's the nomenclature we think of it
> as... :)
Re-reading earlier posting I see I did flip 56 and 64, though...56 goes
on to Springer while 64 goes northwest to Raton from Clayton...
Sometime if you have the time to take another hour or so driving time
and it's been a good year moisture-wise, try taking NM 72 east out of
Raton and just follow it along the Johnson Mesa/Plateau. It'll end up
taking you to Folsom and then you can take 456 (caution, it's got about
20 mi of gravel road/track; avoid on a rainy day) along the Black Mesa
and end up in Boise City or go on south there and come back to 64/87 at
Des Moines just east of Capulin. Gorgeous country with miles you'll see
nary a telephone post, even.
We came back from Santa Fe by the long route a few years ago in August
after a wet year and it was as pretty a drive as I've ever
taken...looked more like the KS Flint Hills country instead of NM that year.
--
On 12/29/2014 5:32 PM, John McCoy wrote:
...
> Those overlapping route numbers are a pain...at least on a
> paper map they print them both, I dunno how people that
> depend on Google Maps and the like survive, because they
> often only show one. (worst is in NC where I-74 overlaps
> with US74, something the designers of the Interstate system
> specifically set things up to avoid, but apparently the NC
> DOT didn't read the manual).
Never taken it but interesting you mention NC as we were in VA/TN for
30+ yr before returning to family farm so all the kids grew up back
there; only the eldset, the elder son was born before we left school in
KS. He is in Raleigh so been over there a fair amount. US 64 meanders
all across the country and ends up its eastern terminus on Roanoke Island...
Spent quite a lot of time w/ Duke Power as started w/ the reactor vendor
for the Oconee station and was there for startup of Unit 1 then went the
consulting gig but continued to work for the B&W owners utilities for
years afterwards before eventually drifting over to mostly fossil as
nuclear work became more competitive and tiring to deal with the
increasing bureaucracy burdens...
...
> Noted. I hope some day to be able to spend more time out
> there just looking around...I'd like to take US60 across
> thru Clovis and Belen and then look around Albuquerque.
> Was out there on business years ago and couldn't make any
> time for sightseeing...
Just out of curiosity, where in S TX are you starting from??? Possible
to suggest other touring guidelines, perhaps knowing starting point... :)
Mother's side of family settled in "The Valley" in the '30s around
McAllen/Pharr. Still have family on that home place and scattered from
there northwards. Don't get down there much; last and farthest we made
was a reunion in Bay City in fall of '98 while were still in TN.
--
On 12/31/2014 7:25 AM, John McCoy wrote:
...
> I hear you on the regulatory burden - altho in fairness, the
> scale of the problem when things go wrong with nuclear does
> justify an excess of caution.
It really was not so much the nuclear safety that was the problem, it
was the increased security practices and layers of duplication (even
before 9/11) that just made trying to work such a pita, especially for
offsite contractors it just became to be more trouble than it was worth
in my view when there was as stimulating work in the fossil side where
all one had to do was walk in once had site clearance...
> On the fossil side, I recall Duke being noteworthy for the
> high efficiency of their powerplants back in the early 80s.
> Dunno if that's still the case, or if everyone else has
> caught up.
It's mostly related to how old the plants actually are...at one time the
top-ranked plant by heat rate almost annually was TVA Bull Run owing to
it being one of the few super-critical cycles plants out there. It does
take a committed operations staff to make them run at or near their
peak, of course, so the utility mentality and particular plant
manager/operations staff do make a difference. But, Bull Run is an
early-60s plant so now it's down in the pack a ways.
In 2014, Duke had two of the top five (albeit they were 4 and 5)...
<http://www.power-eng.com/articles/slideshow/2014/08/top-5-u-s-coal-plant-heat-rates.html#pgtwo>
...
> I'm actually starting from the pointy end of Florida (Ft
> Lauderdale) :-)
>
> I have family in Austin, and family in Ft Collins, and every
> so often I take I long vacation and drive to both. There's
> still a lot of alternative routes for sightseeing out west
> (I've pretty much worn out all the alternatives in Fla).
...
Ewww...that _is_ a fur trek...at least you do have the intermediary
wayside point in Austin. At least in our case until the kids were out
of high school both sets of grandparents were in the same place so one
trip made it to both. In doing that for 30+ yrs, we covered about all
possible routes as well, even those that on occasion went down through
AL and (once) as far north as Chicago (on that occasion was a side trip
to a cousin's place for a special event they were having plus a stop at
the younger son's place in N KY just across river from Cincinnati).
I suppose we should probably bring this to a close...enjoyed the chat...
:) Still puzzling over what I _think_ I recall about the rail lines out
there in E CO but I have to admit it's been a while and mayhaps I'm
placing things somewhat incorrectly...maybe by the time see the coal
trains we are already up to Kit Carson???? Oh well...
It's turned cold here so am trying to finish up year-end books and not
doing anything can avoid outside...was 3 F this AM; at all the way to 6
now--at least wind has let up. Got a snow covering over the wheat so
that is _a_good_thing_ (tm) ... but this is a diversion when tired of
what should be doing... :)
--
On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 10:48:09 -0500, [email protected] wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Dec 2014 05:56:15 -0600, Leon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Leon" wrote:
>>>
>>>> What do you suppose is in all of those other trucks Lew?
>>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Since the port of Los Angeles/Long Beach is the largest port
>>> of entry into the USA, the answer would be almost anything
>>> found on the shelves of the big box stores.
>>>
>>> What is amazing is to see one of those unit trains heading
>>> east out across the California desert.
>>>
>>> I'm guessing that those trains are at least a half mile long.
>>>
>>> They are visible from several miles and almost give the
>>> appearance of being a model train layout.
>>>
>>> After that, it would be the food grown in the central valley
>>> headed east to the markets.
>>>
>>> Lew
>>
>>I bet that is a site to see.. I have seen long line trains in the middle
>>of nowhere in west Texas and probably 100 car plus trains making round
>>trip journeys hauling coal from Wyoming to a coal fired electric plant just
>>SW of Houston.
>
>100-car trains (mostly container an car transporter) aren't uncommon
>around here (Atlanta) at all. I'd guess the average is 80ish (I often
>count when I'm waiting for one). Long trains make money.
A number of years back on a trip to the west coast we saw numerous
trains of over 200 cars - coal, grain, oil, lumber, automobiles,
containers - You name it - it was on those trains.Going both
directions too.