Yes, it's on-topic -- I'm rebuilding my dust collection system using
5" spiral pipe. As an aside, I found a manufacturer in Tucson that
builds spiral pipe and fittings and was able to get ductwork for less
than half what it would have cost to get it from either Penn State or
Oneida, even before shipping charges were added. The pipe is pretty
good, the elbows and y's leave a little to be desired in terms of fit
and finish -- they are more than slightly undersized, there is quite a
bit of silicone seal being used to fill gaps between pipe and fittings
(up to 1/16"), but I digress. ...
I'm using pop rivets to hold the fittings to the pipe and had ordered
a pop rivet tool from Penn State. The tool came with a sampler of pop-
rivets, 15 each in 4 sizes from 3/32 and up. I used up all but the
largest size and went to the blue Borg to get some more. The only thing
Lowes had was Arrow 1/8" pop rivets. Using the rivets that came with
the tool, I had nary a hiccup. First try using the Arrow brand, the
stem stuck in the tool, broken off below the guide -- I had to dis-
assemble the tool to get it loose. This particular box had what appear
to be a brassy stem (looks kind of like coated nails), vs. the silver of
the other rivet stems. I tried some from the second box of Arrow brand
I had gotten (Lowes only had one box that was all silver, the rest had
the yellowish colored stems). While these did not break off inside the
tool, the stem will only self-extract to about 1/4", I then need to use
a pliers to remove the stem the rest of the way.
My question, has anybody else had similar experiences? Or is it
possible the tool manufacturer uses a non-standard rivet, or is it more
likely that the brand I bought today uses rivet stems that are much
softer than other manufacturers use?
Yep, you're right. Some are aluminum, some are steel. I have always used
the ones Sears sells, just from inertia. Never any unexpected problems
in thirty-odd years.
Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
> Yes, it's on-topic -- I'm rebuilding my dust collection system using
> 5" spiral pipe. As an aside, I found a manufacturer in Tucson that
> builds spiral pipe and fittings and was able to get ductwork for less
> than half what it would have cost to get it from either Penn State or
> Oneida, even before shipping charges were added. The pipe is pretty
> good, the elbows and y's leave a little to be desired in terms of fit
> and finish -- they are more than slightly undersized, there is quite a
> bit of silicone seal being used to fill gaps between pipe and fittings
> (up to 1/16"), but I digress. ...
>
> I'm using pop rivets to hold the fittings to the pipe and had ordered
> a pop rivet tool from Penn State. The tool came with a sampler of pop-
> rivets, 15 each in 4 sizes from 3/32 and up. I used up all but the
> largest size and went to the blue Borg to get some more. The only thing
> Lowes had was Arrow 1/8" pop rivets. Using the rivets that came with
> the tool, I had nary a hiccup. First try using the Arrow brand, the
> stem stuck in the tool, broken off below the guide -- I had to dis-
> assemble the tool to get it loose. This particular box had what appear
> to be a brassy stem (looks kind of like coated nails), vs. the silver of
> the other rivet stems. I tried some from the second box of Arrow brand
> I had gotten (Lowes only had one box that was all silver, the rest had
> the yellowish colored stems). While these did not break off inside the
> tool, the stem will only self-extract to about 1/4", I then need to use
> a pliers to remove the stem the rest of the way.
>
> My question, has anybody else had similar experiences? Or is it
> possible the tool manufacturer uses a non-standard rivet, or is it more
> likely that the brand I bought today uses rivet stems that are much
> softer than other manufacturers use?
--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA
...........................................
I've given up the search for reality;
now I'm just looking for a good fantasy.
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Mark & Juanita wrote:
> What puzzles me is the different results I am getting with the two
> different Arrow rivets. The steel colored setting mandrels at least
> have some tendency to pop loose from the handle, the "coated" colored
> mandrels remain inside the handle, the only way to get them out is to
> dis-assemble -- a royal pain.
Inserting the next rivet shank will push the one remaining in the barrel through
and out.
--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Yep, you're right. Some are aluminum, some are steel. I have always used
> the ones Sears sells, just from inertia. Never any unexpected problems
> in thirty-odd years.
>
The ones I got claim to be steel, but the setting mandrels seem to be
much softer than what shipped with the rivet tool.
> >
> > My question, has anybody else had similar experiences? Or is it
> > possible the tool manufacturer uses a non-standard rivet, or is it more
> > likely that the brand I bought today uses rivet stems that are much
> > softer than other manufacturers use?
>
>
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
> > What puzzles me is the different results I am getting with the two
> > different Arrow rivets. The steel colored setting mandrels at least
> > have some tendency to pop loose from the handle, the "coated" colored
> > mandrels remain inside the handle, the only way to get them out is to
> > dis-assemble -- a royal pain.
>
> Inserting the next rivet shank will push the one remaining in the barrel through
> and out.
>
In this case, it did not. I could not push the shank out with another
rivet, nor with anything else, it seemed to have firmly anchored itself
to the sleeve. In fact, as I was trying to push the sleeve with another
rivet, the stuck shank actually caused the rivet to separate from the
shank on the new rivet.
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
>
>
>
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> the yellowish colored stems). While these did not break off inside the
> tool, the stem will only self-extract to about 1/4", I then need to use
> a pliers to remove the stem the rest of the way.
Sounds like you're short-stroking it. I think if you take little bites, it
mushes up the stem. Big, firm bites work much better, and the waste bit
almost always drops clear with a firm snap at the end.
I've put hundreds of Arrow pop rivets into stuff. I used a Cheapass pop
riveter for a long time, but I traded up for a swivel head model from Sears
a few years ago, and the Sears riveter is much better in every way.
The only time things usually go wrong is when I'm trying to use way too long
of a rivet for the job. I've found that the proper size usually means no
more than three strokes to the pop. More than that, and things get mushy.
One stroke probably means it's not quite long enough, and won't hold well.
Two strokes is just right.
Some pop riveting tips:
* seat the thing completely before you start to pull it in, and keep the
pressure firm and steady
* don't short stroke it... squeeze firmly and completely, then open the
handles all the way (sometimes they'll stop short of opening completely, so
you have to pull by hand)
* at the end, open the handles somewhat sharply to increase the chances of
the waste dropping out cooperatively
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
> > the yellowish colored stems). While these did not break off inside the
> > tool, the stem will only self-extract to about 1/4", I then need to use
> > a pliers to remove the stem the rest of the way.
>
> Sounds like you're short-stroking it. I think if you take little bites, it
> mushes up the stem. Big, firm bites work much better, and the waste bit
> almost always drops clear with a firm snap at the end.
My technique did not change from the pop rivets shipped with the rivet
tool to the Arrow rivets. The Arrow rivets are taking two stroke to
pop, while the as-shipped rivets were only taking one, or slighty more
than one. The setting mandrels and rivet sizes are the same however.
>
> I've put hundreds of Arrow pop rivets into stuff. I used a Cheapass pop
> riveter for a long time, but I traded up for a swivel head model from Sears
> a few years ago, and the Sears riveter is much better in every way.
>
> The only time things usually go wrong is when I'm trying to use way too long
> of a rivet for the job. I've found that the proper size usually means no
> more than three strokes to the pop. More than that, and things get mushy.
> One stroke probably means it's not quite long enough, and won't hold well.
> Two strokes is just right.
>
> Some pop riveting tips:
>
> * seat the thing completely before you start to pull it in, and keep the
> pressure firm and steady
I think I've been doing this, I'll make sure that is the case
>
> * don't short stroke it... squeeze firmly and completely, then open the
> handles all the way (sometimes they'll stop short of opening completely, so
> you have to pull by hand)
I definitely have been doing this, the only time I have had issues
with not getting a full stroke is when the handle retainer clip gets
pushed up and catches the handle on the way down.
>
> * at the end, open the handles somewhat sharply to increase the chances of
> the waste dropping out cooperatively
>
This I was definitely doing -- will make sure that I really pop them
open next time to see if any difference occurs.
What puzzles me is the different results I am getting with the two
different Arrow rivets. The steel colored setting mandrels at least
have some tendency to pop loose from the handle, the "coated" colored
mandrels remain inside the handle, the only way to get them out is to
dis-assemble -- a royal pain.
Thanks for your suggestions, they have given me some things to go try.
>
Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
> In this case, it did not. I could not push the shank out with another
> rivet, nor with anything else, it seemed to have firmly anchored itself
> to the sleeve. In fact, as I was trying to push the sleeve with another
> rivet, the stuck shank actually caused the rivet to separate from the
> shank on the new rivet.
Having the head and shaft separate is to be expected if your using the
rivet to push the other shaft from the gun.
I don't know if this has been covered, the gun has a split collar with
internal barbs. When the handles pulled the collars barbs dig into the
shaft.
When the shaft is too soft the barbs dig in the shaft (too) deeply and/
or get hung up on the barbs.
Has it been mentioned if the handles are held apart the collar is forced
against the back of the mandrel resulting in spreading the collar and
breaking the shaft lose from at least one side of the collar. You'll
have better results if you hold the handles apart while poking the spent
shaft out with another rivet.
Finally, if you've read this far, here's your solution: Hold the lower
handle in one hand, use your wrist to spread the handles fully, put
another rivet in the end and tap it on something solid, like you are
trying to drive the protruding rivet through a surface.
Or you could buy better rivets/ rivets more suitable to your gun. No
matter the rivet or gun quality you'll always have a jam. Only the
degree will change.
I have a Star brand rivet gun that's been in the family close to 35
years. Good quality. I have had to take it apart a hand full of times to
clear bad jams caused by soft shanks. The rest of the time tapping as
described above cleared the gun.
--
Mark
N.E. Ohio
Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)
When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
> > I'll give that a try
>
> Hey, for the record, that's what I was trying to tell you in my "don't short
> stroke" it post. I just didn't do a very articulate job of explaining what
> I was thinking, I s'pose.
>
> Oh well.
>
>
Ya kinda clipped what it was I was going to try. :-) But, just to
make you feel better (and not short-stroke your ego), I think the
comment to which you replied was the suggestion that I make sure to open
the jaws on the tool very wide after the mandrel snaps to release it
from the jaws. I used that suggestion, as well as yours (making sure I
was fully pulling the tool closed before releasing for another stroke)
today and had much better success, even with the softest mandrels. Best
advice is probably to avoid the Arrow brand, I'm going to see what I can
find elsewhere when these run out.
I think you articulated what you intended -- anyway, what I understood
you to say apparently helped.
Again, thanks.
In article <[email protected]>, Silvan <[email protected]> wrote:
>Doug Miller wrote:
>
>> Taken totally out of context, and read with just the right (wrong?)
>> viewpoint, some of this stuff is pretty funny. (No offense intended,
>> Silvan)
>
>Get your mind out of the gutter, prevert! :)
>
Don't blame me, _you_wrote_ it! ;-)
--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
Nova wrote:
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>
>> What puzzles me is the different results I am getting with the two
>>different Arrow rivets. The steel colored setting mandrels at least
>>have some tendency to pop loose from the handle, the "coated" colored
>>mandrels remain inside the handle, the only way to get them out is to
>>dis-assemble -- a royal pain.
>
>
> Inserting the next rivet shank will push the one remaining in the barrel through
> and out.
>
> --
> Jack Novak
> Buffalo, NY - USA
> (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
>
>
Turning the rivet gun over to let the shank fall out will remove the need
to cringe when it goes flying past your shoulder when the next shank breaks
loose from it's head. Something like sending your opponents croquet ball
flying, but more interesting, once.
joe
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> advice is probably to avoid the Arrow brand, I'm going to see what I can
> find elsewhere when these run out.
Let us know what you come up with. I'm curious to see if there's anything
better out there, maybe lurking some place I never thought to look. I tend
to use a lot of pop rivets since I can't weld or braze.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in message
> Lowes had was Arrow 1/8" pop rivets. Using the rivets that came with
> the tool, I had nary a hiccup. First try using the Arrow brand, the
> stem stuck in the tool, broken off below the guide -- I had to dis-
> assemble the tool to get it loose.
I had the same problem but didn't realize it until reading your post.
I had a "Pop" brand riveter that I purchased several years ago to
repair the floorboards on my old Mustang. It sat in my tool box until
recently, when I went and purchased another box of rivets for
something I was working on. I had a few break off before they should
have and a few other problems with them too. I remember thinking at
the time that I didn't recall such crappy quality rivets the previous
times I used it. BUT I had always used the same POP brand and this
time I was using the ones available at the Borg.
Next time I think I'll head over to Sears to get my rivets.
-Chris
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
>
>
> Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
>
> >
> > In this case, it did not. I could not push the shank out with another
> > rivet, nor with anything else, it seemed to have firmly anchored itself
> > to the sleeve. In fact, as I was trying to push the sleeve with another
> > rivet, the stuck shank actually caused the rivet to separate from the
> > shank on the new rivet.
>
>
> Having the head and shaft separate is to be expected if your using the
> rivet to push the other shaft from the gun.
>
> I don't know if this has been covered, the gun has a split collar with
> internal barbs. When the handles pulled the collars barbs dig into the
> shaft.
>
> When the shaft is too soft the barbs dig in the shaft (too) deeply and/
> or get hung up on the barbs.
Yep, that seems to be what is happening
>
> Has it been mentioned if the handles are held apart the collar is forced
> against the back of the mandrel resulting in spreading the collar and
> breaking the shaft lose from at least one side of the collar. You'll
> have better results if you hold the handles apart while poking the spent
> shaft out with another rivet.
>
I'll give that a try
>
>
> Finally, if you've read this far, here's your solution: Hold the lower
> handle in one hand, use your wrist to spread the handles fully, put
> another rivet in the end and tap it on something solid, like you are
> trying to drive the protruding rivet through a surface.
>
> Or you could buy better rivets/ rivets more suitable to your gun. No
> matter the rivet or gun quality you'll always have a jam. Only the
> degree will change.
>
That was my original question, it does appear that there are
differences, even within the same brand
Thanks to everyone for the suggestions, I have some good ideas to
start working from.
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:20:00 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:
>How come we choose from just two people to run for president
We often choose from more than 2.
> and 50 for Miss America?
We always choose from more than 50.
Have a nice week...
Trent
Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!
Mark & Juanita wrote:
> I'll give that a try
Hey, for the record, that's what I was trying to tell you in my "don't short
stroke" it post. I just didn't do a very articulate job of explaining what
I was thinking, I s'pose.
Oh well.
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
Taken totally out of context, and read with just the right (wrong?) viewpoint,
some of this stuff is pretty funny. (No offense intended, Silvan)
In article <[email protected]>, Silvan
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Sounds like you're short-stroking it. I think if you take little bites, it
>mushes up the stem. ... I've found that the proper size usually means no
>more than three strokes to the pop. More than that, and things get mushy.
>One stroke probably means it's not quite long enough, and won't hold well.
>Two strokes is just right.
>
>* seat the thing completely before you start to pull it in, and keep the
>pressure firm and steady
>
>* don't short stroke it... squeeze firmly and completely
--
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
How come we choose from just two people to run for president and 50 for Miss America?
Doug Miller wrote:
> Taken totally out of context, and read with just the right (wrong?)
> viewpoint, some of this stuff is pretty funny. (No offense intended,
> Silvan)
Get your mind out of the gutter, prevert! :)
--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
This is not the first time, I personally or as in this example, have had
problems with Arrow fasteners.
I'm beginning to think they are made to only work in Arrow tools.
Erik
"Mark & Juanita" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Yes, it's on-topic -- I'm rebuilding my dust collection system using
> 5" spiral pipe. As an aside, I found a manufacturer in Tucson that
> builds spiral pipe and fittings and was able to get ductwork for less
> than half what it would have cost to get it from either Penn State or
> Oneida, even before shipping charges were added. The pipe is pretty
> good, the elbows and y's leave a little to be desired in terms of fit
> and finish -- they are more than slightly undersized, there is quite a
> bit of silicone seal being used to fill gaps between pipe and fittings
> (up to 1/16"), but I digress. ...
>
> I'm using pop rivets to hold the fittings to the pipe and had ordered
> a pop rivet tool from Penn State. The tool came with a sampler of pop-
> rivets, 15 each in 4 sizes from 3/32 and up. I used up all but the
> largest size and went to the blue Borg to get some more. The only thing
> Lowes had was Arrow 1/8" pop rivets. Using the rivets that came with
> the tool, I had nary a hiccup. First try using the Arrow brand, the
> stem stuck in the tool, broken off below the guide -- I had to dis-
> assemble the tool to get it loose. This particular box had what appear
> to be a brassy stem (looks kind of like coated nails), vs. the silver of
> the other rivet stems. I tried some from the second box of Arrow brand
> I had gotten (Lowes only had one box that was all silver, the rest had
> the yellowish colored stems). While these did not break off inside the
> tool, the stem will only self-extract to about 1/4", I then need to use
> a pliers to remove the stem the rest of the way.
>
> My question, has anybody else had similar experiences? Or is it
> possible the tool manufacturer uses a non-standard rivet, or is it more
> likely that the brand I bought today uses rivet stems that are much
> softer than other manufacturers use?