MLCS 1/4" T&G Set - OK for 1/4" MDF panels?

On 1/23/2015 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4" Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G router bit set:
>
> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
>
> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
>
> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles, while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood which is less.
>
> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
>
> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably be less.
>
> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your thoughts on the issue first.

IME, most 1/4" mdf available locally is actually 1/4".

Just shop around until you can do an onsite verification prior to purchase.

In the other hand, instead of a router bit set:

Stub tenon joint on a table saw:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShop327KitchenRefresh2013?noredirect=1#5895705024054047890

One way to cut them (picked because downloadable):

http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/101/101-stubtenon.pdf

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 9:49:02 AM UTC-5, Brewster wrote:
> On 1/23/15, 9:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4" Poplar=
with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G router bit set:
> >
> > Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
> >
> > http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/b=
it_tongue_groove.html
> >
> > The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the abili=
ty to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles, while the #784=
1 would force me to center the T&G. It is my understanding that 1/4" MDF is=
really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood which is less.
> >
> > I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
> >
> > One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had domes=
tic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably be less.
> >
> > The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels they=
carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by and measure=
the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your thoughts on the i=
ssue first.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> >
> >
>=20
>=20
> A simple slot cutter bit (left side bit of #7841) and a router table=20
> could do what you need (you don't need to cut the tongue from what I=20
> understand of your project).
>=20

You must not understand my project. :-)

I'm making shaker cabinet doors. I'll need the "tongue" - actually the "stu=
b" for the stub tenon joints on the frames.

"DerbyDad03" wrote:

2 - I don't have a stacked dado set, but I will buy one if the dado
blade I have won't do the job.
---------------------------------------
As mentioned by others, Freud has some nice products.

I had an SD-508 carbide stackable dado set from Freud.
When I bought mine they were about $190,
but that was 20 years ago.
Today, $250 should cover it.

Add a sacrificial fence using 13 ply Birch ply and you have just
given yourself the most useful tools to make case goods using
a table saw.

Before you know it, you'll be a Normite.

Have fun.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "DerbyDad03" wrote:
>
> 2 - I don't have a stacked dado set, but I will buy one if the dado
> blade I have won't do the job.
> ---------------------------------------
> As mentioned by others, Freud has some nice products.
>
> I had an SD-508 carbide stackable dado set from Freud.
> When I bought mine they were about $190,
> but that was 20 years ago.
> Today, $250 should cover it.
>
> Add a sacrificial fence using 13 ply Birch ply and you have just
> given yourself the most useful tools to make case goods using
> a table saw.
>
> Before you know it, you'll be a Normite.
>
> Have fun.
>
> Lew
---------------------------------------------
Guess I was in the ball park, price wise.


http://tinyurl.com/ohl8jsh



Lew

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 2:30:41 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/23/15 1:27 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:31:09 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 1/23/15 11:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:00:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >>>> On 1/23/15 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4"
> >>>>> Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G
> >>>>> router bit set:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the
> >>>>> ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles,
> >>>>> while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my
> >>>>> understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood
> >>>>> which is less.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had
> >>>>> domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably
> >>>>> be less.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels
> >>>>> they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by
> >>>>> and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your
> >>>>> thoughts on the issue first.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks!
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Do you have a decent table saw? I got the exact set of bits you're
> >>>> looking at when they were on sale because I planned to make shaker doors
> >>>> for our kitchen. In the meantime I picked up a decent hybrid table saw
> >>>> and those bit have sat in the tool chest ever since.
> >>>>
> >>>> The table saw is the way to go for that joint and will be much faster,
> >>>> easier, and more efficient use of horsepower. I would spend that money
> >>>> on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw. It will be a
> >>>> multi-tasker.
> >>>>
> >>>> This Freud is a supreme blade for the money...
> >>>> <http://www.amazon.com/Freud-LM72R010-10-Inch-Ripping-PermaShield/dp/B0000225UD>
> >>>>
> >>>> If you want to spend about double that for a Cadillac blade, Forrest
> >>>> sells their WWII in a flat grind.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>> OK...I'm counfused.
> >>>
> >>> You said: "I would spend that money on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw."
> >>>
> >>> Then you posted a link to a blade with a 0.126 kerf.
> >>>
> >>> Was that Freud blade recommendation totally separate from the 1/4" kerf blade suggestion?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Oops, sorry... brainfart. In my mind, I was thinking a single dado
> >> blade or a box joint bit, like this...
> >> <http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Tools-Tooth-Bottom-Crosscutting/dp/B00C0WTRXC>
> >>
> >>
> >> In any case, it's everything I stated still applies to a regular, flat
> >> ground, full kerf rip blade. Even if you make two passes, it's much
> >> more efficient than a router table. PLUS, you get the benefit of having
> >> this great blade (or dado set) for other cuts/joints like tenons,
> >> rabbets, etc.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> > OK...Got it. Thanks.
> >
>
> And check out that article Karl posted!
>
>
> --
>

Hmmm...could you be anymore specific than "that article Karl posted". Karl posts a lot of stuff. ;-)

On 1/24/2015 9:53 AM, Leon wrote:

>> http://tomsworkbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Excalibur.jpg
>
> That double blade is still a wobble blade, just spin the blade on your
> arbor and watch the blades move back and forth. Each blade just wobbles
> half as much but you still end up with a round bottom grove.

Hey! ... tell that to our vaunted spiritual leader, Norm.

IIRC, a double bladed wobbler was all he used to cut dadoes in the first
few episodes of NYW. ;)

Actually owned one years ago, and the "cove" that double bladed wobble
dado was so slight it would most likely not be an issue over a 1/2" stub.

If it was, and the OP didn't want to $pring for a stacked dado set, and
there is a slight cove with his existing blade, no problem to cut the
stub tenon a RCH thicker and hit it with some 80g on a flat block.

But, as you laid out, using his new router table to cut the stub tenons
sidesteps that issue nicely.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/23/2015 2:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:44:52 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
>> On 1/23/2015 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4" Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G router bit set:
>>>
>>> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
>>>
>>> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
>>>
>>> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles, while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood which is less.
>>>
>>> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
>>>
>>> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably be less.
>>>
>>> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your thoughts on the issue first.
>>
>> IME, most 1/4" mdf available locally is actually 1/4".
>>
>> Just shop around until you can do an onsite verification prior to purchase.
>>
>> In the other hand, instead of a router bit set:
>>
>> Stub tenon joint on a table saw:
>>
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShop327KitchenRefresh2013?noredirect=1#5895705024054047890
>
> Well, at least I know what my kitchen will look like when it's done! I'm starting with the same stick built cabinets (just more of them) and building the same doors. My drawers fronts will match the doors as opposed to be plain like yours.
>
> Thanks for the visual!
>
>> One way to cut them (picked because downloadable):
>>
>> http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/101/101-stubtenon.pdf
>>
>> --
>
> But what will I do with the router table I just bought? ;-)
>
> OK, 2 questions:
>
> 1 - Your panels appear to be centered in the frames. Is that what you recommend or is the placement based on the look that the client (me) is going for?
>
> 2 - I don't have a stacked dado set, but I will buy one if the dado blade I have won't do the job. Never having done a stub tenon on a table saw, I'm not sure if the dado blade shown below will do a good enough job. Obviously some testing is in order.
>
> This isn't my exact blade, but it's similar. Mine is a Craftsman that I picked up at a garage sale a few years ago. Instead of the single blade normally associated with a wobble dado blade, this style has 2 blades:
>
> http://tomsworkbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Excalibur.jpg

That double blade is still a wobble blade, just spin the blade on your
arbor and watch the blades move back and forth. Each blade just wobbles
half as much but you still end up with a round bottom grove.

>
> If you suggest a stacked set instead, I'd be open to a suggested brand, keeping in mind that I will not be doing production work like you.

There are a lot of good brands of stacked dado's. What you money mostly
goes for is a cut that is clean.
BUT If you go for the centered grove for the panels to fit into, you can
cut the stub tenons on the ends of the rails with a straight cut router
bit in the router table. Just use the fence to set the length of the
tenon to be a "hair" short of the depth of the grooves that will receive
the panels. And push the rail through, perpendicular to the fence, with
a square piece of scrap plywood to back up the cut and to keep the rail
perpendicular to the fence.

Back to the dado set and brand. The better quality the more likely you
are to use it. Basically if it gives yu good results you are not going
to fear using it. I went from a wobble blade to a Forrest Dado King set
10+ years ago and I cut a ton of dado's and groves with that set. The
set has never had to be sharpened. You get what you pay for.

On 1/24/2015 1:02 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/24/2015 9:53 AM, Leon wrote:
>
>>> http://tomsworkbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Excalibur.jpg
>>
>> That double blade is still a wobble blade, just spin the blade on your
>> arbor and watch the blades move back and forth. Each blade just wobbles
>> half as much but you still end up with a round bottom grove.
>
> Hey! ... tell that to our vaunted spiritual leader, Norm.
>
> IIRC, a double bladed wobbler was all he used to cut dadoes in the first
> few episodes of NYW. ;)

Yeah! On a Shop Smith, Then IIRC a Delta contractors saw and eventually
a Unisaw.

>
> Actually owned one years ago, and the "cove" that double bladed wobble
> dado was so slight it would most likely not be an issue over a 1/2" stub.
>
> If it was, and the OP didn't want to $pring for a stacked dado set, and
> there is a slight cove with his existing blade, no problem to cut the
> stub tenon a RCH thicker and hit it with some 80g on a flat block.

That would be the way to do it so you don't have that hollow spot.


>
> But, as you laid out, using his new router table to cut the stub tenons
> sidesteps that issue nicely.
>

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:31:09 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/23/15 11:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:00:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> >> On 1/23/15 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4"
> >>> Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G
> >>> router bit set:
> >>>
> >>> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the
> >>> ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles,
> >>> while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my
> >>> understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood
> >>> which is less.
> >>>
> >>> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
> >>>
> >>> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had
> >>> domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably
> >>> be less.
> >>>
> >>> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels
> >>> they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by
> >>> and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your
> >>> thoughts on the issue first.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks!
> >>>
> >>
> >> Do you have a decent table saw? I got the exact set of bits you're
> >> looking at when they were on sale because I planned to make shaker doors
> >> for our kitchen. In the meantime I picked up a decent hybrid table saw
> >> and those bit have sat in the tool chest ever since.
> >>
> >> The table saw is the way to go for that joint and will be much faster,
> >> easier, and more efficient use of horsepower. I would spend that money
> >> on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw. It will be a
> >> multi-tasker.
> >>
> >> This Freud is a supreme blade for the money...
> >> <http://www.amazon.com/Freud-LM72R010-10-Inch-Ripping-PermaShield/dp/B0000225UD>
> >>
> >> If you want to spend about double that for a Cadillac blade, Forrest
> >> sells their WWII in a flat grind.
> >>
> >>
> > OK...I'm counfused.
> >
> > You said: "I would spend that money on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw."
> >
> > Then you posted a link to a blade with a 0.126 kerf.
> >
> > Was that Freud blade recommendation totally separate from the 1/4" kerf blade suggestion?
> >
>
> Oops, sorry... brainfart. In my mind, I was thinking a single dado
> blade or a box joint bit, like this...
> <http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Tools-Tooth-Bottom-Crosscutting/dp/B00C0WTRXC>
>
>
> In any case, it's everything I stated still applies to a regular, flat
> ground, full kerf rip blade. Even if you make two passes, it's much
> more efficient than a router table. PLUS, you get the benefit of having
> this great blade (or dado set) for other cuts/joints like tenons,
> rabbets, etc.
>
>
> --
>
OK...Got it. Thanks.

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:00:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/23/15 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4"
> > Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G
> > router bit set:
> >
> > Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
> >
> > http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
> >
> >
> >
> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the
> > ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles,
> > while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my
> > understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood
> > which is less.
> >
> > I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
> >
> > One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had
> > domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably
> > be less.
> >
> > The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels
> > they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by
> > and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your
> > thoughts on the issue first.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
>
> Do you have a decent table saw? I got the exact set of bits you're
> looking at when they were on sale because I planned to make shaker doors
> for our kitchen. In the meantime I picked up a decent hybrid table saw
> and those bit have sat in the tool chest ever since.
>
> The table saw is the way to go for that joint and will be much faster,
> easier, and more efficient use of horsepower. I would spend that money
> on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw. It will be a
> multi-tasker.
>
> This Freud is a supreme blade for the money...
> <http://www.amazon.com/Freud-LM72R010-10-Inch-Ripping-PermaShield/dp/B0000225UD>
>
> If you want to spend about double that for a Cadillac blade, Forrest
> sells their WWII in a flat grind.
>
>
OK...I'm counfused.

You said: "I would spend that money on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw."

Then you posted a link to a blade with a 0.126 kerf.

Was that Freud blade recommendation totally separate from the 1/4" kerf blade suggestion?

On Saturday, January 24, 2015 at 10:53:24 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
> On 1/23/2015 2:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:44:52 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> >> On 1/23/2015 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4" Popl=
ar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G router bit set:
> >>>
> >>> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
> >>>
> >>> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages=
/bit_tongue_groove.html
> >>>
> >>> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the abi=
lity to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles, while the #7=
841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my understanding that 1/4" MDF =
is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood which is less.
> >>>
> >>> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
> >>>
> >>> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had dom=
estic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably be less.
> >>>
> >>> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels th=
ey carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by and measu=
re the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your thoughts on the=
issue first.
> >>
> >> IME, most 1/4" mdf available locally is actually 1/4".
> >>
> >> Just shop around until you can do an onsite verification prior to purc=
hase.
> >>
> >> In the other hand, instead of a router bit set:
> >>
> >> Stub tenon joint on a table saw:
> >>
> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShop327Kitchen=
Refresh2013?noredirect=3D1#5895705024054047890
> >
> > Well, at least I know what my kitchen will look like when it's done! I'=
m starting with the same stick built cabinets (just more of them) and build=
ing the same doors. My drawers fronts will match the doors as opposed to be=
plain like yours.
> >
> > Thanks for the visual!
> >
> >> One way to cut them (picked because downloadable):
> >>
> >> http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/101/101-stubtenon.pdf
> >>
> >> --
> >
> > But what will I do with the router table I just bought? ;-)
> >
> > OK, 2 questions:
> >
> > 1 - Your panels appear to be centered in the frames. Is that what you r=
ecommend or is the placement based on the look that the client (me) is goin=
g for?
> >
> > 2 - I don't have a stacked dado set, but I will buy one if the dado bla=
de I have won't do the job. Never having done a stub tenon on a table saw, =
I'm not sure if the dado blade shown below will do a good enough job. Obvio=
usly some testing is in order.
> >
> > This isn't my exact blade, but it's similar. Mine is a Craftsman that I=
picked up at a garage sale a few years ago. Instead of the single blade no=
rmally associated with a wobble dado blade, this style has 2 blades:
> >
> > http://tomsworkbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Excalibur.jpg
>=20
> That double blade is still a wobble blade, just spin the blade on your=20
> arbor and watch the blades move back and forth. Each blade just wobbles=
=20
> half as much but you still end up with a round bottom grove.
>=20
> >
> > If you suggest a stacked set instead, I'd be open to a suggested brand,=
keeping in mind that I will not be doing production work like you.
>=20
> There are a lot of good brands of stacked dado's. What you money mostly=
=20
> goes for is a cut that is clean.
> BUT If you go for the centered grove for the panels to fit into, you can=
=20
> cut the stub tenons on the ends of the rails with a straight cut router=
=20
> bit in the router table. Just use the fence to set the length of the=20
> tenon to be a "hair" short of the depth of the grooves that will receive=
=20
> the panels. And push the rail through, perpendicular to the fence, with=
=20
> a square piece of scrap plywood to back up the cut and to keep the rail=
=20
> perpendicular to the fence.
>=20
> Back to the dado set and brand. The better quality the more likely you=
=20
> are to use it. Basically if it gives yu good results you are not going=
=20
> to fear using it. I went from a wobble blade to a Forrest Dado King set=
=20
> 10+ years ago and I cut a ton of dado's and groves with that set. The=20
> set has never had to be sharpened. You get what you pay for.

I hope to do some testing tomorrow - Sunday.

I spent most of today installing the new drawers using Swingman's slide fra=
mes. It's all well and good that they worked fine on the bench, but it took=
a bunch of shimming to get them level front to back and side to side in th=
e cabinets themselves.=20

For the time being I re-used the old drawer fronts which were actually part=
of the original drawers. Not drawers fronts, but the actual front of the d=
rawer. The sides were nailed into a 3/8" "raised panel" on the back of the =
drawer front. I built a jig, put a wide base on my router and removed the r=
aised panel so the fronts would sit flat on my new drawer boxes. No sense i=
n letting the drawers sit around while I make the drawer fronts, doors, pai=
nt the kitchen, etc.

Anyway, tomorrow will be stub tenon training day.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:44:52 PM UTC-5, Swingman wrote:
> On 1/23/2015 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4" Poplar=
with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G router bit set:
> >
> > Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
> >
> > http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/b=
it_tongue_groove.html
> >
> > The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the abili=
ty to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles, while the #784=
1 would force me to center the T&G. It is my understanding that 1/4" MDF is=
really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood which is less.
> >
> > I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
> >
> > One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had domes=
tic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably be less.
> >
> > The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels they=
carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by and measure=
the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your thoughts on the i=
ssue first.
>=20
> IME, most 1/4" mdf available locally is actually 1/4".
>=20
> Just shop around until you can do an onsite verification prior to purchas=
e.
>=20
> In the other hand, instead of a router bit set:
>=20
> Stub tenon joint on a table saw:
>=20
> https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShop327KitchenRef=
resh2013?noredirect=3D1#5895705024054047890

Well, at least I know what my kitchen will look like when it's done! I'm st=
arting with the same stick built cabinets (just more of them) and building =
the same doors. My drawers fronts will match the doors as opposed to be pla=
in like yours.

Thanks for the visual!

> One way to cut them (picked because downloadable):
>=20
> http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/101/101-stubtenon.pdf
>=20
> --=20

But what will I do with the router table I just bought? ;-)

OK, 2 questions:

1 - Your panels appear to be centered in the frames. Is that what you recom=
mend or is the placement based on the look that the client (me) is going fo=
r?=20

2 - I don't have a stacked dado set, but I will buy one if the dado blade I=
have won't do the job. Never having done a stub tenon on a table saw, I'm =
not sure if the dado blade shown below will do a good enough job. Obviously=
some testing is in order.

This isn't my exact blade, but it's similar. Mine is a Craftsman that I pic=
ked up at a garage sale a few years ago. Instead of the single blade normal=
ly associated with a wobble dado blade, this style has 2 blades:

http://tomsworkbench.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Excalibur.jpg

If you suggest a stacked set instead, I'd be open to a suggested brand, kee=
ping in mind that I will not be doing production work like you.

As always, thanks!
=20

On 1/23/2015 2:05 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> OK, 2 questions:
>
> 1 - Your panels appear to be centered in the frames. Is that what you recommend or is the placement based on the look that the client (me) is going for?

It is desirable to center the stub tenon grooves, but not absolutely
necessary.

It is a helluva lot fussier of a set up, all around, to not do so ...
particularly when cutting the stub tenons.

> 2 - I don't have a stacked dado set, but I will buy one if the dado blade I have won't do the job. Never having done a stub tenon on a table saw, I'm not sure if the dado blade shown below will do a good enough job. Obviously some testing is in order.

That dado blade, and a sacrificial fence will do fine for cutting the
stub tenons after the grooves are cut (see below).

Back to the grooves:

If you were using 1/4" plywood, which is typically 15/32", it is easier
to not use a dado blade for the grooves, except that the groove will
always be centered with this method.

I simply use a regular 1/8" kerf blade to cut 1/4" mdf or 1/4 (15/32)"
stub tenon panel grooves.

Use a test board of the exact same stock, set the fence so the blade is
a bit shy of being perfectly centered, make one pass, then flip the
board end for end and make another pass.

That second pass will center the groove perfectly.

Test your fit, and make slight adjustments to the fence as needed, then
repeat _both_ steps above with another test piece to get the proper
fence setting for a perfect sized groove.

> If you suggest a stacked set instead, I'd be open to a suggested brand, keeping in mind that I will not be doing production work like you.

Since you will be using the precision of the fence (plus
auxiliary/sacrificial fence) to provide the precision in length of the
stub tenon, you do not need a high dollar dado set.

Freud is hard to beat. You can buy cheaper, but eventually you'll most
likely be sharpening as much as you're cutting.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 1/23/15 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4"
> Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G
> router bit set:
>
> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
>
> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
>
>
>
The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the
> ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles,
> while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my
> understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood
> which is less.
>
> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
>
> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had
> domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably
> be less.
>
> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels
> they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by
> and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your
> thoughts on the issue first.
>
> Thanks!
>

Do you have a decent table saw? I got the exact set of bits you're
looking at when they were on sale because I planned to make shaker doors
for our kitchen. In the meantime I picked up a decent hybrid table saw
and those bit have sat in the tool chest ever since.

The table saw is the way to go for that joint and will be much faster,
easier, and more efficient use of horsepower. I would spend that money
on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw. It will be a
multi-tasker.

This Freud is a supreme blade for the money...
<http://www.amazon.com/Freud-LM72R010-10-Inch-Ripping-PermaShield/dp/B0000225UD>

If you want to spend about double that for a Cadillac blade, Forrest
sells their WWII in a flat grind.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/23/15 11:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:00:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/23/15 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4"
>>> Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G
>>> router bit set:
>>>
>>> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
>>>
>>> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the
>>> ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles,
>>> while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my
>>> understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood
>>> which is less.
>>>
>>> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
>>>
>>> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had
>>> domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably
>>> be less.
>>>
>>> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels
>>> they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by
>>> and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your
>>> thoughts on the issue first.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>
>> Do you have a decent table saw? I got the exact set of bits you're
>> looking at when they were on sale because I planned to make shaker doors
>> for our kitchen. In the meantime I picked up a decent hybrid table saw
>> and those bit have sat in the tool chest ever since.
>>
>> The table saw is the way to go for that joint and will be much faster,
>> easier, and more efficient use of horsepower. I would spend that money
>> on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw. It will be a
>> multi-tasker.
>>
>> This Freud is a supreme blade for the money...
>> <http://www.amazon.com/Freud-LM72R010-10-Inch-Ripping-PermaShield/dp/B0000225UD>
>>
>> If you want to spend about double that for a Cadillac blade, Forrest
>> sells their WWII in a flat grind.
>>
>>
> OK...I'm counfused.
>
> You said: "I would spend that money on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw."
>
> Then you posted a link to a blade with a 0.126 kerf.
>
> Was that Freud blade recommendation totally separate from the 1/4" kerf blade suggestion?
>

Oops, sorry... brainfart. In my mind, I was thinking a single dado
blade or a box joint bit, like this...
<http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Tools-Tooth-Bottom-Crosscutting/dp/B00C0WTRXC>


In any case, it's everything I stated still applies to a regular, flat
ground, full kerf rip blade. Even if you make two passes, it's much
more efficient than a router table. PLUS, you get the benefit of having
this great blade (or dado set) for other cuts/joints like tenons,
rabbets, etc.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/23/15 1:27 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:31:09 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>> On 1/23/15 11:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:00:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>>> On 1/23/15 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4"
>>>>> Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G
>>>>> router bit set:
>>>>>
>>>>> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the
>>>>> ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles,
>>>>> while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my
>>>>> understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood
>>>>> which is less.
>>>>>
>>>>> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
>>>>>
>>>>> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had
>>>>> domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably
>>>>> be less.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels
>>>>> they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by
>>>>> and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your
>>>>> thoughts on the issue first.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you have a decent table saw? I got the exact set of bits you're
>>>> looking at when they were on sale because I planned to make shaker doors
>>>> for our kitchen. In the meantime I picked up a decent hybrid table saw
>>>> and those bit have sat in the tool chest ever since.
>>>>
>>>> The table saw is the way to go for that joint and will be much faster,
>>>> easier, and more efficient use of horsepower. I would spend that money
>>>> on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw. It will be a
>>>> multi-tasker.
>>>>
>>>> This Freud is a supreme blade for the money...
>>>> <http://www.amazon.com/Freud-LM72R010-10-Inch-Ripping-PermaShield/dp/B0000225UD>
>>>>
>>>> If you want to spend about double that for a Cadillac blade, Forrest
>>>> sells their WWII in a flat grind.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> OK...I'm counfused.
>>>
>>> You said: "I would spend that money on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw."
>>>
>>> Then you posted a link to a blade with a 0.126 kerf.
>>>
>>> Was that Freud blade recommendation totally separate from the 1/4" kerf blade suggestion?
>>>
>>
>> Oops, sorry... brainfart. In my mind, I was thinking a single dado
>> blade or a box joint bit, like this...
>> <http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Tools-Tooth-Bottom-Crosscutting/dp/B00C0WTRXC>
>>
>>
>> In any case, it's everything I stated still applies to a regular, flat
>> ground, full kerf rip blade. Even if you make two passes, it's much
>> more efficient than a router table. PLUS, you get the benefit of having
>> this great blade (or dado set) for other cuts/joints like tenons,
>> rabbets, etc.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
> OK...Got it. Thanks.
>

And check out that article Karl posted!


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/23/15 2:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 2:30:41 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>
>> And check out that article Karl posted!
>>
>>
>
> Hmmm...could you be anymore specific than "that article Karl posted". Karl posts a lot of stuff. ;-)
>

Youbetcha....

http://www.woodsmithshop.com/download/101/101-stubtenon.pdf


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 1/23/15, 9:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4" Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G router bit set:
>
> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
>
> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
>
> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles, while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood which is less.
>
> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
>
> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably be less.
>
> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your thoughts on the issue first.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>


A simple slot cutter bit (left side bit of #7841) and a router table
could do what you need (you don't need to cut the tongue from what I
understand of your project).

-BR


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

On 1/23/15, 10:31 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
> On 1/23/15 11:09 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Friday, January 23, 2015 at 12:00:43 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
>>> On 1/23/15 10:26 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> I plan to make some shaker style kitchen cabinet doors from 3/4"
>>>> Poplar with 1/4" MDF panels and I was looking at this MLCS T&G
>>>> router bit set:
>>>>
>>>> Item #7737, 3rd one down on this page:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bit_tongue_groove.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The rep at MLCS recommended the #7737 because it will give me the
>>>> ability to move the groove back towards the rear of rails/stiles,
>>>> while the #7841 would force me to center the T&G. It is my
>>>> understanding that 1/4" MDF is really 1/4", unlike 1/4" plywood
>>>> which is less.
>>>>
>>>> I called 2 local lumber yards and this is what I was told:
>>>>
>>>> One place said that they could order it and if their supplier had
>>>> domestic MDF it would be 1/4", if it was imported it would probably
>>>> be less.
>>>>
>>>> The other place assured me right up front that the 1/4" MDF panels
>>>> they carry are 1/4". $19.95 per 49" x 97" sheet. I plan to swing by
>>>> and measure the panels before I order the bit set, but I'd like your
>>>> thoughts on the issue first.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do you have a decent table saw? I got the exact set of bits you're
>>> looking at when they were on sale because I planned to make shaker doors
>>> for our kitchen. In the meantime I picked up a decent hybrid table saw
>>> and those bit have sat in the tool chest ever since.
>>>
>>> The table saw is the way to go for that joint and will be much faster,
>>> easier, and more efficient use of horsepower. I would spend that money
>>> on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade for the table saw. It will be a
>>> multi-tasker.
>>>
>>> This Freud is a supreme blade for the money...
>>> <http://www.amazon.com/Freud-LM72R010-10-Inch-Ripping-PermaShield/dp/B0000225UD>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you want to spend about double that for a Cadillac blade, Forrest
>>> sells their WWII in a flat grind.
>>>
>>>
>> OK...I'm counfused.
>>
>> You said: "I would spend that money on a 1/4" kerf flat-ground blade
>> for the table saw."
>>
>> Then you posted a link to a blade with a 0.126 kerf.
>>
>> Was that Freud blade recommendation totally separate from the 1/4"
>> kerf blade suggestion?
>>
>
> Oops, sorry... brainfart. In my mind, I was thinking a single dado
> blade or a box joint bit, like this...
> <http://www.amazon.com/Infinity-Tools-Tooth-Bottom-Crosscutting/dp/B00C0WTRXC>
>
>
> In any case, it's everything I stated still applies to a regular, flat
> ground, full kerf rip blade. Even if you make two passes, it's much
> more efficient than a router table. PLUS, you get the benefit of having
> this great blade (or dado set) for other cuts/joints like tenons,
> rabbets, etc.
>
>
I bought this blade set for doing box joints:

http://www.amazon.com/Freud-SBOX8-Cutter-4-Inch-grooves/dp/B000ASGV1E/ref=sr_1_1/190-3373023-6821654?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1422111078&sr=1-1&keywords=freud+box+joint+saw+blades

and it works very well, perfectly flat cuts.
I end up using it for all my grooving cuts where I need something wider
than I can do with a 1/8" rip blade an multiple cuts.

-BR


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

On 1/24/15, 9:26 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

>>
>>
>> A simple slot cutter bit (left side bit of #7841) and a router table
>> could do what you need (you don't need to cut the tongue from what I
>> understand of your project).
>>
>
> You must not understand my project. :-)

Ahh, gotch!
I was thinking you were worried about the slot for the panel..

I do stub tenon frames on the table saw with careful blade setups to get
the proper fit. In general, if the cut is something that could be done
with either a router or tablesaw, I tend to go the tablesaw route if the
total cutting length is more than a few linear feet (less wear 'n' tear
on expensive router bits)

Anyhoo, carry on!


>
> I'm making shaker cabinet doors. I'll need the "tongue" - actually the "stub" for the stub tenon joints on the frames.
>


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: [email protected] ---

On 1/23/2015 11:48 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "Lew Hodgett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "DerbyDad03" wrote:
>>
>> 2 - I don't have a stacked dado set, but I will buy one if the dado
>> blade I have won't do the job.
>> ---------------------------------------
>> As mentioned by others, Freud has some nice products.
>>
>> I had an SD-508 carbide stackable dado set from Freud.
>> When I bought mine they were about $190,
>> but that was 20 years ago.
>> Today, $250 should cover it.
>>
>> Add a sacrificial fence using 13 ply Birch ply and you have just
>> given yourself the most useful tools to make case goods using
>> a table saw.
>>
>> Before you know it, you'll be a Normite.
>>
>> Have fun.
>>
>> Lew
> ---------------------------------------------
> Guess I was in the ball park, price wise.
>
>
> http://tinyurl.com/ohl8jsh
>
>
>
> Lew
>
>
>
Rocklers latest catalog, February SF-A has a 20% off one item coupon on
the cover. I use this method 10+ years ago to buy my Forrest Dado King
stacked set. Today with the discount that will cost you $240.00.