New Policy @ AdvantageLumber

In article <[email protected]>, Hylourgos
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Thanks, Robin, for a fairly cogent reply. I like the Coke analogy,
> which is illustrative except for the fact that instead of one
> conglomerate selling in different venues, we are comparing here two
> (quasi-competing) businesses in different venues. Makes it hard to
> compare, I know.
>
> As I understand it then, would you say that the difference in price
> (4.7 times) is accounted for by a) wood quality and b) prep work for
> smaller stock/higher quality items in a non-wood supplier store? Do I
> have that right?
>
> It's perfectly sensible, even probable given the many things I don't
> know about preparing stock at that level of marketing--but still
> surprising. I'm inclined to believe it if you tell me so.

I'm not Rob, but I'll chip in anyway.

Here's the gist of his point: a customer wanting 1 bf of nearly
perfect wood can buy it from him at a price that seems shockingly high
per bf when compared to quantity suppliers.

Ripped off? No. Consider this: to get the same perfect 1bf piece
from a quantity supplier would require purchasing several times that
amount -- 4 or 5 bf if you're lucky. Then you've got to join and plane
it, sort it, and hope you get the piece you need, or else it's back to
the lumber yard.

In short: if you're building 24 linear feet of walnut bookshelves,
then don't buy your lumber from Lee Valley. But if you need a premium
quality 1x3x24 board of a species you don't have in your wood shed,
then buying from LV (or Rockler, or Woodcraft) probably won't cost you
more money, and will certainly cost lest time, labor and aggravation
than buying in quantity and milling your own in hopes of finding a
select piece.

Kevin

Nova <[email protected]> writes:
> I know that a business decisions like the one you've made is not easy.

Definately.

But, if the policy is so new that the web site doesn't yet reflect it,
and if *I* were the business, I'd fill *that* order and let them know
that the policy has changed, and that they could pick up or combine
future orders with friends.

That approach would show that 1: you honor your written (even if it's
electronically so) word and 2: that you've thought enough about it to
offer possible solutions and alternatives.

but then, i'm not a business owner... so what the heck do i know?
--
be safe.
flip
Verso l'esterno! Verso l'esterno! Deamons di ignoranza.
Remove origin of the word spam from address to reply (leave "+")

In article <[email protected]>, Mutt
<[email protected]> wrote:

> As I always enjoy a good argument, I finally finished reading this
> string and have the following comments.
>
> I think y'all have been a bit rough on Rob here. He's trying to run a
> business, plain and simple - and to stay in business he has to make
> choices which may cut several ways.

(snip)

> Frankly, I don't think a minimum mail/shipment order of $500
> is unreasonable at all.

If you've read the whole thread, then surely you've found very few
criticizing Advatange Lumber's business decisions to have a minimum
order amount. Some might quibble about the cut-off point, but that's
normal.

OTOH, this thread has been almost entirely about a diatribe against an
established customer. In a public forum, no less, which certainly does
nothing positive for expanding his customer base. Not to mention
denigrating a businessman who has shown an outstanding devotion to
customer service, including stocking very low-profit, small quantity
hardwoods.

Kevin

"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Renata wrote:
>
> > No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> > they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> > that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
> >
> > Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
> >
> > But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> > from PA on Monday.
> >
> > Renata
>
> I checked Advantage's web site and it still indicates that they will ship
> a single board. When I get a chance I stop at their office, check into
> the matter and report back.
>
> Jack Novak

$500 is a lot to pay for a single board though.


--
© Jon Down ®
http://www.stores.ebay.com/jdpowertoolcanada

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 04:12:59 GMT, Mike Alexander <[email protected]>
brought forth from the murky depths:

>Rob Pelc wrote:
>> Renata,
>> I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
>
>I didn't think Renata was "bashing your company". Sounds to me like he
>was telling it like it is. You changed your policy, and you have annoyed
>at least one customer (I expect you have annoyed many customers with
>this change). Personally, if I was a customer of yours, I would more
>than just "a tad annoyed", I would be right pissed off with your change
>of policy. But, since I am not a customer of yours, all this policy
>change means to me is, I never will be.
>
>Check out Lee Valley if you want a good example of how to operate and
>grow a business.

Potential retention of customers might have been to continue to
service existing customers and limit new customers to larger orders.

I think Rob did himself a secondary disservice by the tone of his
reply to Renata. Unemotional facts would have sufficed (perhaps with
an mildly emotional plea at the end) for people to understand your
situation better. HMMV

--
Remember: Every silver lining has a cloud.
----
http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development

Renata wrote:

> No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>
> Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>
> But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> from PA on Monday.
>
> Renata

I checked Advantage's web site and it still indicates that they will ship
a single board. When I get a chance I stop at their office, check into
the matter and report back.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Renata wrote:

> I emailed in an order Monday, didn't hear back, called this morning
> and talked with a guy who's name I don't recall. Supposedly they'd
> emailed me back (didn't receive the email).
>
> This guy said they are so busy they only take $500 and up orders
> henceforth. They haven't gotten around to changing their website.
>
> I mentioned a lot of wReckers are gonna be annoyed, but they didn't
> seem to think that would be the case.
>
> Obviously they have sufficient orders of $500 and up that the small
> ones are no longer worth the effort.
> Which is fine except that I'd venture a guess they're so successful
> thanx in no small part ot our help. Maybe I'm wrong.
>
> Next thing you know, Lee Valley is gonna come out with a $500 minimum
> (not!) (I hope).

Hi Renata,

I stopped at Advantage a few minutes ago. The person you spoke to was
Rob Pelc, the owner.

I also spoke to Rob and he informed me that the decision was difficult
to make, but they could not keep up with the orders they are currently
receiving. Rob stated that, at this time, he doesn't know if $500 minimum
order will be permanent.

I expressed my disappointment in this decision personally.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Regarding Advantage Lumber's new $500 minimum Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> It won't matter much if he changes six months from now. The small order guy
> will have found new sources and Advantage can find new "big" customers.
> Ed

I think Rob is well aware of this possibility. If the new policy ends up being
only temporary, I'm guessing that he feels his pricing will bring the small
customers back.

I should mention that the policy applies to only orders that have to be
shipped. There is no minimum order if the lumber is "pick up" (I know their are
a few who have made the trip to Buffalo to do so).

I think maybe I'll skip telling my wife the part about the $500 minimum only
applying to shipped orders. ;-)

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

"B a r r y B u r k e J r ." wrote:

> On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:36:33 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >I should mention that the policy applies to only orders that have to be
> >shipped. There is no minimum order if the lumber is "pick up" (I know their are
> >a few who have made the trip to Buffalo to do so).
>
> We could have you pick it up and ship it to us. <G>

SURE, just send me the CASH with your order! ;-)

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Rob Pelc wrote:

> Renata,
> I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
> responded to your email on Monday nicely explaining our policy. We
> also nicely explained to you on the phone our new policy and that we
> are working on updating our website to reflect our new policy.

Hi Rob,

I have to say that I really didn't read Renata's post as bashing your company. If you
noticed, it didn't take me very long, after reading about your change in policy, to see how I, as
a walk-in customer, would be affected. Had your new policy included walk-ins, I too would have
been upset. Not because I didn't understand the change, but because it would have become more
difficult for me to take advantage of the services you offer.

I know that a business decisions like the one you've made is not easy. I also think you are
over reacting to the criticisms this decision has generated. Although the comments may appear
negative, perhaps they should be viewed as an indication of how your customer(s) have valued
doing business with you.

Offering suggestions such as "couple an order with a friend or neighbor" is constructive. I
can see you being defensive of the business decision you've made, but in my opinion, making
disparaging remarks to potential customers and other retailers is extremely counter productive.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

In fairnes I am sure you know but I will mention it. Rob was not the
first ot bring LV into this. (Renata) He was not even the second. (Mike)
And his response was limited to the scope of this thread. And RL
himself pointed out they do not try to be a wood supplier. It was
unfair and wrong to bring them into this. If you want to compare apples
to apples, compare his customer relations to other wood suppliers. (Oh
yeah, newsgroup mentality.) They are few and far between. It is a tough
business, look at all the cheapos they get. Tough because wood is not
exclusive such as your own branded tools and selection. All RP has to
compete on is price. And it is the customers who pushed it on him. Or
would you all agree to pay 40 dollar handling fee on any order under 150
dollars. Thought not. And sure people can suggest RP institute some
shipping and handling policy. But look at what gets said about others
who did, they have been bashed about. No matter what somebody does, if
it comes up in a newsgroup, and it is an extra charge, your fried. Any
other big mail order store come to mind not yet mentioned? Duh! They
were losing too much, on too many little orders and had to do something.
Cheapos. And I don't mean the store.

This is like a high speed race through a city and a pedestrian getting
clipped.

But there are reasons why things cost less and why things cost more.
Deal with it. And it is nice, LV at least has this stuff in stock. And
it is all nice "select" stuff worthy of the price.

Heck this is a newsgroup. I am sure that only one out of ten people
vowing not to go to AL for wood, will so in the end. The other nin will
work around the limit. Newsgroup mentality. Scheese.

If I won the lottery I don't know if I would be a bigger nut opening a
tool store, or a lumber store?

What would you do?

Customers, gotta love'm.





TomL wrote:

>On 19 Dec 2003 06:11:26 -0800, [email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>and always will welcome walk-ins. I got emotional over the issue
>>because of my high regard for the "little guys" and for that I am
>>sorry Reneta.
>>
>>
>>Best Regards,
>>Rob Pelc
>>http://wwww.AdvantageLumber.com/
>>http://www.IpeDepot.com/
>>toll free 1-877-232-3915
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Ummm, Rob.... you forgot to apologize to Robin Lee.
>
>TomL
>
>

I emailed in an order Monday, didn't hear back, called this morning
and talked with a guy who's name I don't recall. Supposedly they'd
emailed me back (didn't receive the email).

This guy said they are so busy they only take $500 and up orders
henceforth. They haven't gotten around to changing their website.

I mentioned a lot of wReckers are gonna be annoyed, but they didn't
seem to think that would be the case.

Obviously they have sufficient orders of $500 and up that the small
ones are no longer worth the effort.
Which is fine except that I'd venture a guess they're so successful
thanx in no small part ot our help. Maybe I'm wrong.

Next thing you know, Lee Valley is gonna come out with a $500 minimum
(not!) (I hope).

Renata

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 15:33:50 GMT, [email protected] (Renata)
wrote:

>No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
>they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
>that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>
>Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>
>But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
>from PA on Monday.
>
>Renata

from dictionary.com
Bash: To engage in harsh, accusatory, threatening criticism.
*********

I wasn't "bashing" your company and it's too bad you're so sensitive
(?) as to feel the need to "bash" one of your former customers and
former supporters on this forum. As I stated (both on the phone w/you
and in my article here), I never received your email (even went back
and checked to see if it inadvertantly got mixed in w/trashed spam -
nope).

Your tone in this response is unwarranted and IMHO adds to the
increasingly negative view you're acquiring. Perhaps a dose of
maturity is in order. (actually, I really don't know how to
characterize what's in order, just that something is - I was rather
surprised by your personal attack here).

As I stated, it's understandable that business has to adapt, but your
flippant dismissal of small orders, both on the phone yesterday and in
this response is annoying because I'd guess those orders contributed
in no small way to get you where you are today. Your business
details are irrelevant to me, but your attitude toward your "valued"
cusomters sucks.

Attitude - that's the key issue here. Not business decisions.

And, I was hardly ordering a splinter ($12) - my order was probably in
the range of $200. Just not worth it any more, huh? Now you can run
with the big boys...

I'll pass on the business venture opportunity - I have my own
interests and running a lumber company longer than I would need to
take advantage of the owner's discount, isn't one of them.

Wow, now compare your response (again - not the business decision) to
the attitude Lee Valley takes. Admittedly, they seem to go to an
exteme at times to satisfy the customer (small example: I felt guilty
when they credited return shipping on something they were not at fault
with; but they stated that was their policy). You could go a long way
towards civility and appreciation and not come close to their extreme
valuation of the customer.

Ta ta
Renata

On 17 Dec 2003 19:31:30 -0800, [email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote:

>Renata,
>I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
>responded to your email on Monday nicely explaining our policy. We
>also nicely explained to you on the phone our new policy and that we
>are working on updating our website to reflect our new policy.
>
>We have not raised our prices in the last 5 years. With the rising
>cost of doing businesss every company must make periodic changes in
>order to stay afloat. Rather than raising prices which would effect
>the majority of our customers we felt it was better to employ a policy
>of a larger minimum order. The majority of our customers have coupled
>there orders with freinds to meet the minimum.
>
>I regret that you are "a tad annoyed" with us making an effort to stay
>in bussiness in a difficult economy. Maybe you could buy me out, I
>could work for you, and you could then use your great wisdom to show
>me how to pay the bills by taking $12.00 orders.
>
>And by the way please see if my competators will match my prices,
>offer access to $250,000.00 in milling equipment, and not have a
>minimum order.
>
>Not to come off like an "arogant ass" but I am a tad annoyed by your
>jumping to the gun to bash my company. A company I started when I was
>19 years old, A company that I swallowed my pride for and borowed from
>everyone I know to get going, A company that I have worked 80 to 100 a
>week to get where it is, A company that has made every effort to
>satisfy every customer, A company that cares to take the time to post
>to the Rec.
>
>We value all of our customers and hope that they would rather couple
>an order with a friend or neighbor (at the same time getting a better
>deal on shipping charges) than to pay higher prices. I tend to
>believe that someone that does not agree with my opinion on this has
>not yet been self employed.
>
>Best Regards,
>Rob Pelc - owner Advantage Trim & Lumber Company
>http://www.AdvantageLumber.com/
>http://www.IpeDepot.com/
>toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
>[email protected] (Renata) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
>> they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
>> that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>>
>> Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>>
>> But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
>> from PA on Monday.
>>
>> Renata

Greetings and Salutations.

On 18 Dec 2003 12:13:29 -0800, [email protected] (Matt) wrote:

>LOL! First you trash a customer, now you trash other merchants. I'd
>tell you to quit while you're a head, but we're passed that now aren't
>we...
>
>Matt
>
If Advantage wants to set a minimum purchase...that's
fine...I am sure that they realize that they are cutting out
a chunk of the population that might buy (or has bought) from
them.
It always is a bummer when life changes like this...and
we have something taken away that we had before. However,
there are other sources of wood that still will go with the
smaller consumer...so the best thing to do is find them
and move on.
Man...from all the testiness in this thread, one
would almost think it is the Christmas Season!
Regards
Dave Mundt

Egg-zactly!

Renata


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:51:01 -0500, "Stephen M"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Hey Pelc -
>>
>> Take a pill...
>SNIP.....
>
>Zing! Lick index finger and mark of one tick mark in the air.
>
>GO Robin.
>
>To Mr Pelc: Quit while you are behing. (shut up , you are not helping your
>case.)
>
>
>

Au contraire - I bought a few hundred dollars (shipping was $70,
dion't recall order amt), mmm, a couple years ago. Guess you don't
keep records back that far.

****
I've recommended your company many times to folks here who need a
supplier, ...

based on the good service I received (in the past).
So, your little diatrabe was quite the surprise.

Renata

On 18 Dec 2003 06:16:30 -0800, [email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote:

>Mike,
>Reneta was not a current customer of ours. She called for the first
>time and we informed her that we have a minimum order and are
>currently working on updating our website to show that. I do not see
>the problem with that.
--snip--
>
>Best regards,
>Rob Pelc

As I always enjoy a good argument, I finally finished reading this
string and have the following comments.

I think y'all have been a bit rough on Rob here. He's trying to run a
business, plain and simple - and to stay in business he has to make
choices which may cut several ways. Anyone can understand that small
orders that require shipment are labor intensive, and either he now
has the pricing, processes and employees in place to make small orders
profitable or he doesn't. It appears he doesn't. One of two things
will happen as a result of his decision on minimum order size, (1) his
sales volume/profits will decrease materially and he will change the
policy or put in place processes so he can profitably handle small
orders, or (2) he won't miss the small order business, and can
concentrate on being, and remaining, profitable and competitive in
price on the business he is prepared to accept.

This is America, a great country, and neither Rob, or anyone else out
there who is a consumer of hardwoods, has to do business with each
other. Frankly, I don't think a minimum mail/shipment order of $500
is unreasonable at all. That's about 100 bd ft of 4/4 cherry, maybe
15 twelve foot boards. There are other internet operations that do
have the shipping/employee/process capability to fill 1 or 2 board
orders so I don't know what everyone has their knickers in a knot
over. Come to central New Jersey and see what the local suppliers get
for 4/4 cherry - how about $6.75.... that, to me, is unreasonable, but
its my choice to buy or not to buy. So I didn't, I saved up my money
for a few months, rented a box van and drove to central PA and bought
a mixed load of 1200 bd ft of 4/4 kd lumber - hard maple @3.50/ft,
cherry @4.40/ft and poplar @1.55/ft from a sawmill that has a kiln and
now I have an inventory to work off. Its called a free market, so all
you whiners make your choices and stop busting this guy's chops and
acting like victims on Jerry Springer or Oprah - everybody is a victim
nowadays. I think Rob's prices are competitive, I hope he continues
to be successful in his business so he can stay competitive and I wish
him well. If my pickup ever gets up to his neck of the woods, I'll be
sure to stop buy and get some of his quarter sawn white oak.


[email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I can see that my point was totally missed. My intention was not to
> bash anyone or attack any company. Although I clearly see how it was
> taken that way given the high strung enthusiasm here including my own.
>
> I have always enjoyed dealing with the smaller customers for a $5
> sale, $100 sale or whatever. But the truth is that we cannot make a
> profit on wrapping up a small order and shipping it out with the
> current system that we have. We still welcome small walk in sales.
>
> I was upset at Reneta accusing my company of not caring about the
> little guys.
> That was my loosely used definition of "bashing". For 10 years I have
> always been polite and helpful to a ton of small customers that have
> ordered mail orders or walk-ins. We have been forced to put in place
> the $500 minimum for orders shipped out because of the time it takes
> to pull a order, being that we currently have too much wood in too
> little space.....NOT because we do not care about the "little guys".
> Because in all honesty they are much more fun to deal with, chat about
> woodworking, and buy small woodworking projects from. For us to
> package & ship out a order under $500 cost us money at the small
> margins we operate at, given our current setup. It was explained that
> the $500 minimum was most probably temporary until we get a better
> system in place for handling the smaller orders, which includes adding
> more space. We have not "forgotten about the little guys" as we still
> and always will welcome walk-ins. I got emotional over the issue
> because of my high regard for the "little guys" and for that I am
> sorry Reneta.
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Rob Pelc
> http://wwww.AdvantageLumber.com/
> http://www.IpeDepot.com/
> toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
>
> [email protected] (Renata) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> > they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> > that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
> >
> > Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
> >
> > But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> > from PA on Monday.
> >
> > Renata

Rob Pelc wrote:
>And as far as Lee Valley....
>they are ripping you off and you like it.


Hi Rob. Remember me? I was the first guy to bust your
balls here on the wreck. As it turns out I was right about
you.

Now go away.

Keith Bohn

On 19 Dec 2003 06:11:26 -0800, [email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote:


>and always will welcome walk-ins. I got emotional over the issue
>because of my high regard for the "little guys" and for that I am
>sorry Reneta.
>
>
>Best Regards,
>Rob Pelc
>http://wwww.AdvantageLumber.com/
>http://www.IpeDepot.com/
>toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
>
Ummm, Rob.... you forgot to apologize to Robin Lee.

TomL

LOL! First you trash a customer, now you trash other merchants. I'd
tell you to quit while you're a head, but we're passed that now aren't
we...

Matt


[email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Mike,
> Reneta was not a current customer of ours. She called for the first
> time and we informed her that we have a minimum order and are
> currently working on updating our website to show that. I do not see
> the problem with that.
>
> And as far as Lee Valley....if you are happy paying $17.90 sq. ft for
> Canarywood, $25.00 for Paduak, and $17.00 for Purpleheart....than good
> for you. Seeing that I charge $4.75 for canarywood, $3.95 for Paduak,
> and $3.95 for purpleheart, plus $0.30 per bd ft for surfacing.
>
>
> Now that is something that would upset me. No wonder they are
> growing...they are ripping you off and you like it.
>
> Best regards,
> Rob Pelc
> http://www.AdvantageLumber.com/
> http://www.IpeDepot.com/
> toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
>
>
> Mike Alexander <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > Rob Pelc wrote:
> > > Renata,
> > > I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
> >
> > I didn't think Renata was "bashing your company". Sounds to me like he
> > was telling it like it is. You changed your policy, and you have annoyed
> > at least one customer (I expect you have annoyed many customers with
> > this change). Personally, if I was a customer of yours, I would more
> > than just "a tad annoyed", I would be right pissed off with your change
> > of policy. But, since I am not a customer of yours, all this policy
> > change means to me is, I never will be.
> >
> > Check out Lee Valley if you want a good example of how to operate and
> > grow a business.
> >
> > ...Mike

There's something I don't understand here that I'm curious about. Rob
Pelc wrote:

"And as far as Lee Valley....if you are happy paying $17.90 sq. ft for
Canarywood, $25.00 for Paduak, and $17.00 for Purpleheart....than good
for you. Seeing that I charge $4.75 for canarywood, $3.95 for Paduak,
and $3.95 for purpleheart, plus $0.30 per bd ft for surfacing."

Robin, you responded:

"We resell a tiny bit of project wood bought from a commercial US
supplier - we don't make money from it - it's a convenience item for
our customers. Our prices reflect our costs - that's all there is to
it. We're not a wood supplier, and don't pretend to be."

While I realize that this thread is really addressing customer
relations and the proper rhetoric of that, it's the economics that has
me stumped here, so I'm going to leave out all the emotional stuff and
just ask a question about wood economy.

The difference in prices between the same wood (at least you didn't
mention any difference) is shocking, to me at least. The fact that, as
you state, you're not a wood supplier explains some of that, but 4.7
times as much? Wouldn't it be a convenience to your customers--if less
expense may be termed a convenience--to just buy from a source like
Rob who apparently is charging much less than your commercial
supplier, add your cost then pass the savings to the customer? I can't
imagine how that would cost 4.7 times as much....

As I say, however, I'm ignorant of wood economy, so you may have a
perfectly good reason that I can understand. It wouldn't be the first
time I found myself ignorant of something everybody else knew...

Respectfully,
H

Thanks, Robin, for a fairly cogent reply. I like the Coke analogy,
which is illustrative except for the fact that instead of one
conglomerate selling in different venues, we are comparing here two
(quasi-competing) businesses in different venues. Makes it hard to
compare, I know.

As I understand it then, would you say that the difference in price
(4.7 times) is accounted for by a) wood quality and b) prep work for
smaller stock/higher quality items in a non-wood supplier store? Do I
have that right?

It's perfectly sensible, even probable given the many things I don't
know about preparing stock at that level of marketing--but still
surprising. I'm inclined to believe it if you tell me so.

Regards,
H

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Hi -
>
> Yes - the economics are strange but here are a couple of the factors...
>
> 1) the smaller the piece - the more discriminating the buyer is, and higher
> the "reject" rate is...when a consumer buys a 3" x 24" x 1/2" (.25 bd ft),
> it has to be virtually perfect - no knots, sapwood, dings, bark, warping
> etc. - an awful lot of it gets sold at much lower prices.
>
> 2) the volumes are not high - even in the best sellers, we would only order
> at most 100 pieces at a time (see #3)
>
> 3) the turn rates are lousy - there are so many species, and so many
> discrete sizes, that it really takes a lot of inventory to keep in stock
>
> 4) it's a pain for most wood suppliers to produce - again small quantities,
> lots of labour - set-up etc.
>
> 5) small shipment sizes make for large freight factor.
>
> If we sold in larger lots (say....500 bd feet or so ) then yes, the price
> would definitely be a ton better. It's sort of like the difference between
> buying a Coke from a vending machine, and buying a case from Costco....and
> also realizing that the same Coke from a soda fountain only costs cents for
> the same amount.... volume, packaging, ease of production, costs of
> fulfillment - all factors that determine the product economics....
>
>
>
> Cheers -
>
> Rob
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Hylourgos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > There's something I don't understand here that I'm curious about. Rob
> > Pelc wrote:
> >
> > "And as far as Lee Valley....if you are happy paying $17.90 sq. ft for
> > Canarywood, $25.00 for Paduak, and $17.00 for Purpleheart....than good
> > for you. Seeing that I charge $4.75 for canarywood, $3.95 for Paduak,
> > and $3.95 for purpleheart, plus $0.30 per bd ft for surfacing."
> >
> > Robin, you responded:
> >
> > "We resell a tiny bit of project wood bought from a commercial US
> > supplier - we don't make money from it - it's a convenience item for
> > our customers. Our prices reflect our costs - that's all there is to
> > it. We're not a wood supplier, and don't pretend to be."
> >
> > While I realize that this thread is really addressing customer
> > relations and the proper rhetoric of that, it's the economics that has
> > me stumped here, so I'm going to leave out all the emotional stuff and
> > just ask a question about wood economy.
> >
> > The difference in prices between the same wood (at least you didn't
> > mention any difference) is shocking, to me at least. The fact that, as
> > you state, you're not a wood supplier explains some of that, but 4.7
> > times as much? Wouldn't it be a convenience to your customers--if less
> > expense may be termed a convenience--to just buy from a source like
> > Rob who apparently is charging much less than your commercial
> > supplier, add your cost then pass the savings to the customer? I can't
> > imagine how that would cost 4.7 times as much....
> >
> > As I say, however, I'm ignorant of wood economy, so you may have a
> > perfectly good reason that I can understand. It wouldn't be the first
> > time I found myself ignorant of something everybody else knew...
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > H

Makes good sense, Mike. Thanks. Pretty much apples and organges....

H.

Mike Alexander <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<sHQEb.95189$ea%[email protected]>...
> Hylourgos wrote:
> > As I understand it then, would you say that the difference in price
> > (4.7 times) is accounted for by a) wood quality and b) prep work for
> > smaller stock/higher quality items in a non-wood supplier store? Do I
> > have that right?
>
> It's as Robin said, LV is not a lumber yard. They primarily sell tools
> and garden stuff.

Well...I too said that, right above ("in a non-wood supplier store").

> The project wood they sell comes in 3"x24" pieces, with thicknesses
> ranging from 1/8" to 3/4". There is no pine, oak or even cherry. It is
> all reasonably exotic woods. When you are dealing with pieces of wood
> that small, nicks and knots, or any other imperfections make a piece
> unusable, so all of their pieces are completely clear.
>
> As for volume, I don't know how much they keep in the back, but all the
> pieces they keep on the floor in the store I go to, fit in a cabinet
> rougly 5'x3'x24". That is for all species. That's pretty low volume, but
> as Robin pointed out, it is meant as a convenience item for their
> customers, not a major profit item.
>
> I wouldn't be going to LV to buy enough lumber for a table, but if I
> just need a little bit of something exotic for an inlay, it's much
> better than the long drive to the lumber yard where I'll have to buy a
> piece much bigger than what I really need.
>
> ...Mike

To Kevin and Randy both: very clear explanations, thank you.

H.

Too bad this wasn't your *initial* response. I think the damage is already
done.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote:
>I can see that my point was totally missed. My intention was not to
>bash anyone or attack any company. Although I clearly see how it was
>taken that way given the high strung enthusiasm here including my own.
>
>I have always enjoyed dealing with the smaller customers for a $5
>sale, $100 sale or whatever. But the truth is that we cannot make a
>profit on wrapping up a small order and shipping it out with the
>current system that we have. We still welcome small walk in sales.
>
>I was upset at Reneta accusing my company of not caring about the
>little guys.
>That was my loosely used definition of "bashing". For 10 years I have
>always been polite and helpful to a ton of small customers that have
>ordered mail orders or walk-ins. We have been forced to put in place
>the $500 minimum for orders shipped out because of the time it takes
>to pull a order, being that we currently have too much wood in too
>little space.....NOT because we do not care about the "little guys".
>Because in all honesty they are much more fun to deal with, chat about
>woodworking, and buy small woodworking projects from. For us to
>package & ship out a order under $500 cost us money at the small
>margins we operate at, given our current setup. It was explained that
>the $500 minimum was most probably temporary until we get a better
>system in place for handling the smaller orders, which includes adding
>more space. We have not "forgotten about the little guys" as we still
>and always will welcome walk-ins. I got emotional over the issue
>because of my high regard for the "little guys" and for that I am
>sorry Reneta.
>
>
>Best Regards,
>Rob Pelc
>http://wwww.AdvantageLumber.com/
>http://www.IpeDepot.com/
>toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
>
>[email protected] (Renata) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
>> they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
>> that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>>
>> Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>>
>> But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
>> from PA on Monday.
>>
>> Renata

Rob (Pelc)

Maybe it's a simple matter of finding a way to reduce the repetitive work
required to fill the small orders, rebuild your price accordingly and
continue to service the little guy as you've done all along. For as long as
I've been playing in this sand box, you're the one aimed at as the place to
get wood when there's not a local supplier....you're reputation ('till now)
was hard earned and highly respected.

I know for me, the majority of my purchases are 10 bd ft here, and ten
there. I'm a hobbyist after all, I don't "turn out work". I expect to pay a
bit more for this and I don't expect to be serviced the same as a guy who's
buying thousands of bd ft/month. But I do expect to be able to buy wood and
I don't expect there to be a minimum order. The place I buy my wood now
isn't geared for the little guy and has to move entire lifts for me. I try
and go in with a friend who's also buying in order to justify their
overhead...You can guess where I go when it's time to buy 100 bd ft (or
more).....

Like I said, maybe it's a simple matter of re-packaging the portion of the
work that actually costs money and seeing if you can't continue to provide
the service you've become known for.

Rob

--

Remove CC for email and please visit our web site:
http://www.robswoodworking.com

"Rob Pelc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I can see that my point was totally missed. My intention was not to
> bash anyone or attack any company. Although I clearly see how it was
> taken that way given the high strung enthusiasm here including my own.
>
><snipped>

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> > I think Rob did himself a secondary disservice by the tone of his
> > reply to Renata. Unemotional facts would have sufficed (perhaps with
>
> Absolutely.
>
> He probably would have gotten some business from me sooner or later, but
> there's no chance of that now. Talk about having a pissy attitude!
>

One of the nice things about e-mail and electronic communications is
that it is immediate and quick. One of the really bad things about e-
mail and electronic communications is that it is immediate and quick.

The e-mail from Advantage Lumber bears the marks of something
typed in haste and anger (I will avoid remarks about banging fingers
flying over the keyboard, spittle flying). That is almost OK if you are
having a political discussion with someone far away and emotions get the
better of you -- it is not a really good idea if you are the owner of a
company that does business with people like those you are berating. I
suspect that someone taking a little more time than immediately flying
into an electronic rage would have stepped back and reconsidered what
was about to be made public to the world.

Then again, maybe not.

Silvan wrote:

> I'm not a business owner either, and I like it that way.

Oh? Not long ago you were discussing the difficulties of getting a dental
appointment... And not knowing your work schedule... And having to get a
load of yuppie furniture to its destination, no matter the weather... IIRC
I got the impression you thought your bosses valued your life less than
getting the cargo to the destination on time.


<g>




<eg>





I humbly suggest you *DO* *NOT* like it that way!!!!!!! ;-)




I had lunch today with someone whose friend got out of the stock market in
January 2000 and put the money in treasury bills. It was just dumb luck.
Never has to work another day of his life. Another guy at the table, in his
early 40's, is apparently getting somewhat close to being able to spend his
time sailing around the world. The oldest person at the table (early 50's)
mentioned being owed > $300K by an internet company that had difficulties in
the .com crash. Unlike many companies, they are still in business and have
a settlement package on the table with him > $100K.

There are trillions and trillions and TRILLIONS of dollars out there. The
question is, how do you get your hands on the amount that lets you live the
way you want to live?

If you want to amass $1M & live off the interest you probably have just
three options:
- The lottery
- Starting a business which becomes successful
- Study & emulate people who "made it." I have met and talked with just
one billionaire in my 44 years on this planet, Peter Daniels. He claims to
have read and taken notes from over 500 biographies. (IIRC. He could have
said "> 5000 biographies" in his talk. In 40+ years he could very well have
done it.)
http://www.peterdanielsonline.com/

BTW, I have read of bus drivers who were able to meet their financial goals.
Instead of wasting time when they weren't driving they studied companies &
made appropriate investments. Sure, they started small. Over a period of
25+ years, they paid off their homes, put their children through college,
and built up a retirement nest egg.

------------------------

I have dreams I expect to achieve. My contributions to the "The Perfect
Shop" threads indicate some of my expectations... <g>

-- Mark

"Mike in Mystic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> the Connecticut Wood Group Hardwood Outlet in
> Enfield, CT. They have a very good selection of hardwood, although I
admit
> it isn't quite as diverse as yours. Their prices are perhaps a bit higher
> than your listed ones (maybe 5% or so).

But includes milling to thickness if desired.

> The thing is, they don't have a
> minimum order.

They do expect you to buy the entire board. ;)
Ed

Renata,
I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
responded to your email on Monday nicely explaining our policy. We
also nicely explained to you on the phone our new policy and that we
are working on updating our website to reflect our new policy.

We have not raised our prices in the last 5 years. With the rising
cost of doing businesss every company must make periodic changes in
order to stay afloat. Rather than raising prices which would effect
the majority of our customers we felt it was better to employ a policy
of a larger minimum order. The majority of our customers have coupled
there orders with freinds to meet the minimum.

I regret that you are "a tad annoyed" with us making an effort to stay
in bussiness in a difficult economy. Maybe you could buy me out, I
could work for you, and you could then use your great wisdom to show
me how to pay the bills by taking $12.00 orders.

And by the way please see if my competators will match my prices,
offer access to $250,000.00 in milling equipment, and not have a
minimum order.

Not to come off like an "arogant ass" but I am a tad annoyed by your
jumping to the gun to bash my company. A company I started when I was
19 years old, A company that I swallowed my pride for and borowed from
everyone I know to get going, A company that I have worked 80 to 100 a
week to get where it is, A company that has made every effort to
satisfy every customer, A company that cares to take the time to post
to the Rec.

We value all of our customers and hope that they would rather couple
an order with a friend or neighbor (at the same time getting a better
deal on shipping charges) than to pay higher prices. I tend to
believe that someone that does not agree with my opinion on this has
not yet been self employed.

Best Regards,
Rob Pelc - owner Advantage Trim & Lumber Company
http://www.AdvantageLumber.com/
http://www.IpeDepot.com/
toll free 1-877-232-3915


[email protected] (Renata) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>
> Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>
> But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> from PA on Monday.
>
> Renata

Mike,
Reneta was not a current customer of ours. She called for the first
time and we informed her that we have a minimum order and are
currently working on updating our website to show that. I do not see
the problem with that.

And as far as Lee Valley....if you are happy paying $17.90 sq. ft for
Canarywood, $25.00 for Paduak, and $17.00 for Purpleheart....than good
for you. Seeing that I charge $4.75 for canarywood, $3.95 for Paduak,
and $3.95 for purpleheart, plus $0.30 per bd ft for surfacing.


Now that is something that would upset me. No wonder they are
growing...they are ripping you off and you like it.

Best regards,
Rob Pelc
http://www.AdvantageLumber.com/
http://www.IpeDepot.com/
toll free 1-877-232-3915




Mike Alexander <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Rob Pelc wrote:
> > Renata,
> > I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
>
> I didn't think Renata was "bashing your company". Sounds to me like he
> was telling it like it is. You changed your policy, and you have annoyed
> at least one customer (I expect you have annoyed many customers with
> this change). Personally, if I was a customer of yours, I would more
> than just "a tad annoyed", I would be right pissed off with your change
> of policy. But, since I am not a customer of yours, all this policy
> change means to me is, I never will be.
>
> Check out Lee Valley if you want a good example of how to operate and
> grow a business.
>
> ...Mike

I can see that my point was totally missed. My intention was not to
bash anyone or attack any company. Although I clearly see how it was
taken that way given the high strung enthusiasm here including my own.

I have always enjoyed dealing with the smaller customers for a $5
sale, $100 sale or whatever. But the truth is that we cannot make a
profit on wrapping up a small order and shipping it out with the
current system that we have. We still welcome small walk in sales.

I was upset at Reneta accusing my company of not caring about the
little guys.
That was my loosely used definition of "bashing". For 10 years I have
always been polite and helpful to a ton of small customers that have
ordered mail orders or walk-ins. We have been forced to put in place
the $500 minimum for orders shipped out because of the time it takes
to pull a order, being that we currently have too much wood in too
little space.....NOT because we do not care about the "little guys".
Because in all honesty they are much more fun to deal with, chat about
woodworking, and buy small woodworking projects from. For us to
package & ship out a order under $500 cost us money at the small
margins we operate at, given our current setup. It was explained that
the $500 minimum was most probably temporary until we get a better
system in place for handling the smaller orders, which includes adding
more space. We have not "forgotten about the little guys" as we still
and always will welcome walk-ins. I got emotional over the issue
because of my high regard for the "little guys" and for that I am
sorry Reneta.


Best Regards,
Rob Pelc
http://wwww.AdvantageLumber.com/
http://www.IpeDepot.com/
toll free 1-877-232-3915



[email protected] (Renata) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>
> Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>
> But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> from PA on Monday.
>
> Renata

>> What separates the CEO from a contract janitor?
>
> It is not I.Q. Mensans have scrubbed toilets of people driven away by
> chauffeurs.

Anyone?

I have met people who lived in California and:
- Flew from CA to the east coast of the USA on Monday.
- Worked Tuesday - Thursday
- Flew back to CA on Friday.
And the company they worked for paid the tickets.

Why are most employees interchangeable at minimum wage or better, but a tiny
fraction worth paying > 200K per year to only work 3 days per week as in my
example?

-- Mark

That's the nice thing about free enterprise - there's always someone who
will pick up the slack. It's their loss not yours, in the long run.

Vic

"Renata" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>
> Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>
> But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> from PA on Monday.
>
> Renata

Mutt,

You make some good points except you kinda missed the target. It was not
about the new policy - it's about his attitude and publicly bashing
customers and the way he handled the situation. He got zero points for
customer relations....

We are not whining - we're telling him that he can make his business
decisions and live and die by them (and he will) but with an attitude like
he's expressed here, well.... let's be kind and say he didn't fare well.
He's now publicly set the tone for the way he wants to do business and many
of us don't care to deal with that kind of attitude. It's Jekyll and Hide
time if you read his posts.

He'll be lucky if this little diatribe of his isn't picked up by the local
newspapers. I doubt he's gained any customers from this, surely he's lost
some and that was by his own hand.

Bob S.


"Mutt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As I always enjoy a good argument, I finally finished reading this
> string and have the following comments.
>
> I think y'all have been a bit rough on Rob here. He's trying to run a
> business, plain and simple - and to stay in business he has to make
> choices which may cut several ways. Anyone can understand that small
> orders that require shipment are labor intensive, and either he now
> has the pricing, processes and employees in place to make small orders
> profitable or he doesn't. It appears he doesn't. One of two things
> will happen as a result of his decision on minimum order size, (1) his
> sales volume/profits will decrease materially and he will change the
> policy or put in place processes so he can profitably handle small
> orders, or (2) he won't miss the small order business, and can
> concentrate on being, and remaining, profitable and competitive in
> price on the business he is prepared to accept.
>
> This is America, a great country, and neither Rob, or anyone else out
> there who is a consumer of hardwoods, has to do business with each
> other. Frankly, I don't think a minimum mail/shipment order of $500
> is unreasonable at all. That's about 100 bd ft of 4/4 cherry, maybe
> 15 twelve foot boards. There are other internet operations that do
> have the shipping/employee/process capability to fill 1 or 2 board
> orders so I don't know what everyone has their knickers in a knot
> over. Come to central New Jersey and see what the local suppliers get
> for 4/4 cherry - how about $6.75.... that, to me, is unreasonable, but
> its my choice to buy or not to buy. So I didn't, I saved up my money
> for a few months, rented a box van and drove to central PA and bought
> a mixed load of 1200 bd ft of 4/4 kd lumber - hard maple @3.50/ft,
> cherry @4.40/ft and poplar @1.55/ft from a sawmill that has a kiln and
> now I have an inventory to work off. Its called a free market, so all
> you whiners make your choices and stop busting this guy's chops and
> acting like victims on Jerry Springer or Oprah - everybody is a victim
> nowadays. I think Rob's prices are competitive, I hope he continues
> to be successful in his business so he can stay competitive and I wish
> him well. If my pickup ever gets up to his neck of the woods, I'll be
> sure to stop buy and get some of his quarter sawn white oak.
>
>
> [email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > I can see that my point was totally missed. My intention was not to
> > bash anyone or attack any company. Although I clearly see how it was
> > taken that way given the high strung enthusiasm here including my own.
> >
> > I have always enjoyed dealing with the smaller customers for a $5
> > sale, $100 sale or whatever. But the truth is that we cannot make a
> > profit on wrapping up a small order and shipping it out with the
> > current system that we have. We still welcome small walk in sales.
> >
> > I was upset at Reneta accusing my company of not caring about the
> > little guys.
> > That was my loosely used definition of "bashing". For 10 years I have
> > always been polite and helpful to a ton of small customers that have
> > ordered mail orders or walk-ins. We have been forced to put in place
> > the $500 minimum for orders shipped out because of the time it takes
> > to pull a order, being that we currently have too much wood in too
> > little space.....NOT because we do not care about the "little guys".
> > Because in all honesty they are much more fun to deal with, chat about
> > woodworking, and buy small woodworking projects from. For us to
> > package & ship out a order under $500 cost us money at the small
> > margins we operate at, given our current setup. It was explained that
> > the $500 minimum was most probably temporary until we get a better
> > system in place for handling the smaller orders, which includes adding
> > more space. We have not "forgotten about the little guys" as we still
> > and always will welcome walk-ins. I got emotional over the issue
> > because of my high regard for the "little guys" and for that I am
> > sorry Reneta.
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Rob Pelc
> > http://wwww.AdvantageLumber.com/
> > http://www.IpeDepot.com/
> > toll free 1-877-232-3915
> >
> >
> >
> > [email protected] (Renata) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > > No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> > > they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> > > that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
> > >
> > > Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
> > >
> > > But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> > > from PA on Monday.
> > >
> > > Renata

Rob Pelc wrote:
> Mike,
> Reneta was not a current customer of ours. She called for the first
> time and we informed her that we have a minimum order and are
> currently working on updating our website to show that. I do not see
> the problem with that.
>

No problem with that, and you have every right to set your own policies.
I, for one, don't like the policy, and that is my right, and I will
express my displeasure with my wallet.

What I think people are objecting to in this thread is your treatment of
a past/current/future/potential/whatever customer in a public forum.
Frankly, your attitude sucks. But again, that is your right. I see it as
how I might be treated if I ever did choose to do business with your
company, and again, I will express my displeasure of that with my wallet.

> And as far as Lee Valley....if you are happy paying $17.90 sq. ft for
> Canarywood, $25.00 for Paduak, and $17.00 for Purpleheart....than good
> for you. Seeing that I charge $4.75 for canarywood, $3.95 for Paduak,
> and $3.95 for purpleheart, plus $0.30 per bd ft for surfacing.
>
>
> Now that is something that would upset me. No wonder they are
> growing...they are ripping you off and you like it.

LV is growing, because they know how to treat a customer, big or small,
and they go out their way to make customers want to come back. I even
take my dog into their store, and they treat her better than some stores
treat their paying customers.

I have spent several thousand dollars at LV (and yes, I have even bought
some of that project wood you list), and I have no doubt that I will be
spending several thousand more over time. Even though I have
occasionally (rarely) paid more at LV than I would have elsewhere, I
have never once felt like I was being ripped off by them. I put a value
on customer service, and LV's customer service is second to none.

Good luck with your business, but I think you have done some major
damage here today.

...Mike

"Hylourgos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As I understand it then, would you say that the difference in price
> (4.7 times) is accounted for by a) wood quality and b) prep work for
> smaller stock/higher quality items in a non-wood supplier store? Do I
> have that right?

If I understand it right, it's that and more. From a 10bdft board, it's
quite possible that only 1/2 of that is good enough to sell to their
audience, so the price doubles. Next, add actual milling costs. Next,
consider that they have to keep a large variety of sizes of each species,
and they do not sell quickly, so there is a lot of cost in just keeping them
on the stock (shelf space that could be used for things that move faster,
costs of money invested in this stock generating no revenue, etc). Finally,
pieces get damaged while they're around, and are lost that way as well.

That's my take at least.

--randy

bob,

get a life.

dave

Bob S. wrote:

> Dave,
>
> Get a life...
>
> snipe of Bay Area Dave's dribble.....
>
>

I'll bet you are sorry - now. We'll take our small orders elsewhere where
they are appreciated. You didn't want them anyway and I'm sure the
competition will send you "Thank You" notes.

Bob S.

Dave,

Get a life...

snipe of Bay Area Dave's dribble.....

Hey Pelc -

Take a pill...

We resell a tiny bit of project wood bought from a commercial US supplier -
we don't make money from it - it's a convenience item for our customers. Our
prices reflect our costs - that's all there is to it. We're not a wood
supplier, and don't pretend to be.

Believe it or not - there are a "few" customers who appreciate being able to
buy a small quantity of exotic wood .... even some who don't live anywhere
near a lumber store.

You see, we do this because we have this weird idea that all customers are
good customers....not just the "big" ones.... as a matter of fact, we've
even found that sometimes, "small" customers turn into "big" customers....

Good luck with your new policy, your wonderful sense of customer relations,
and tremendously astute strategy to build goodwill....

You're making lots of new friends here....I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't
use our name when posting your tripe.


Rob Lee
President
Lee Valley Tools
Veritas Tools

(oh - yeah....also self-employed, worked here since age 16, worked 100 hour
weeks, and occasionally takes the time to post to the Wreck)

I see nothing off topic in my post about business practices, Dan. You
are stretching a bit to say that I'm not on topic, in my opinion,
worthless to you as that may be.

I stick by every word in my previous post. You are free to argue the
merits of the case...

So far you have offered nothing "on topic" about business practices.

So who is "off topic" here, Dan? :)

dave

Dan wrote:

> Bay Area Dave wrote:
>
>> rant off.
>
>
> Renata has as much right to rant about a lumberyard's new policy as you
> do to rant about Renata's rant.
>
> I think Renata's rant was more on topic and contained useful information
> for quite a few people, but sometimes that's not the yardstick. However,
> I think Renata was right to rant and ranted rightly, while you have the
> right to wrongly rant and ranted wrong. But not long.
>
> Dan
>

Hope that bit of "kicking the slats out of your crib" made you feel better
cause you just lost some customers for being such an arrogant ass (your
words).

The small mail orders helped you grow and were the "bread and butter" of
your business as I recall you stating once and now you can't make any money
on them? Give us a break.

With that attitude you will soon be out of business and by your own doing -
not the economy. Get in your truck and go visit Lee Valley in Ottawa and
ask to speak to Rob or anyone working the counter. They will teach you all
you need to know about customer service in about 10 seconds flat. It's
called attitude and caring about the customer - not bashing and screwing
them.

The post was not about bashing your business - it was about your new policy
and attitude.

I'll find my wood elsewhere. One small order gone...next.

Bob


"Rob Pelc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Renata,
> I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
> responded to your email on Monday nicely explaining our policy. We
> also nicely explained to you on the phone our new policy and that we
> are working on updating our website to reflect our new policy.
>
> We have not raised our prices in the last 5 years. With the rising
> cost of doing businesss every company must make periodic changes in
> order to stay afloat. Rather than raising prices which would effect
> the majority of our customers we felt it was better to employ a policy
> of a larger minimum order. The majority of our customers have coupled
> there orders with freinds to meet the minimum.
>
> I regret that you are "a tad annoyed" with us making an effort to stay
> in bussiness in a difficult economy. Maybe you could buy me out, I
> could work for you, and you could then use your great wisdom to show
> me how to pay the bills by taking $12.00 orders.
>
> And by the way please see if my competators will match my prices,
> offer access to $250,000.00 in milling equipment, and not have a
> minimum order.
>
> Not to come off like an "arogant ass" but I am a tad annoyed by your
> jumping to the gun to bash my company. A company I started when I was
> 19 years old, A company that I swallowed my pride for and borowed from
> everyone I know to get going, A company that I have worked 80 to 100 a
> week to get where it is, A company that has made every effort to
> satisfy every customer, A company that cares to take the time to post
> to the Rec.
>
> We value all of our customers and hope that they would rather couple
> an order with a friend or neighbor (at the same time getting a better
> deal on shipping charges) than to pay higher prices. I tend to
> believe that someone that does not agree with my opinion on this has
> not yet been self employed.
>
> Best Regards,
> Rob Pelc - owner Advantage Trim & Lumber Company
> http://www.AdvantageLumber.com/
> http://www.IpeDepot.com/
> toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
> [email protected] (Renata) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> > they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> > that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
> >
> > Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
> >
> > But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> > from PA on Monday.
> >
> > Renata

Mark,

It's a matter of having specialized skills that are in high demand in a
specific situation. High enough demand to where people will pay a lot for
them. Toilet scrubbers are a specialized skill, but not in high enough
demand to be worth that much, there are too many of them around.

I spent the first 18 years of my work life traveling over 100K miles a year.
My record was while living in NY, I went to Salt Lake City for lunch on day
and returned home to NY that night. I didn't do much, but I had the
technical knowledge and the skill to explain it to the customer if needed.
That's why the salesman justified bringing me along.

If I had children I would encourage them to be the best at what they do, and
make sure that what they do for a living is in high demand and not a lot of
people do it on the level they do.

Bernie

PS: On the flip side, there was a gentleman selling snow balls on a street
corner the other day for $1. He did sell 6 of them, but I'm not sure that is
a unique product with high demand. At least not in NYC when it's snowing,
hahahaha.


"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >> What separates the CEO from a contract janitor?
> >
> > It is not I.Q. Mensans have scrubbed toilets of people driven away by
> > chauffeurs.
>
> Anyone?
>
> I have met people who lived in California and:
> - Flew from CA to the east coast of the USA on Monday.
> - Worked Tuesday - Thursday
> - Flew back to CA on Friday.
> And the company they worked for paid the tickets.
>
> Why are most employees interchangeable at minimum wage or better, but a
tiny
> fraction worth paying > 200K per year to only work 3 days per week as in
my
> example?
>
> -- Mark
>
>

Mark & Juanita wrote:
>
> One of the nice things about e-mail and electronic communications is
> that it is immediate and quick. One of the really bad things about e-
> mail and electronic communications is that it is immediate and quick.

And once committed to a newsgroup, it is archived forever.

1970's: Don't Drink and Drive
2000's: Don't Drink and Post

-- Mark

Hi -

Yes - the economics are strange but here are a couple of the factors...

1) the smaller the piece - the more discriminating the buyer is, and higher
the "reject" rate is...when a consumer buys a 3" x 24" x 1/2" (.25 bd ft),
it has to be virtually perfect - no knots, sapwood, dings, bark, warping
etc. - an awful lot of it gets sold at much lower prices.

2) the volumes are not high - even in the best sellers, we would only order
at most 100 pieces at a time (see #3)

3) the turn rates are lousy - there are so many species, and so many
discrete sizes, that it really takes a lot of inventory to keep in stock

4) it's a pain for most wood suppliers to produce - again small quantities,
lots of labour - set-up etc.

5) small shipment sizes make for large freight factor.

If we sold in larger lots (say....500 bd feet or so ) then yes, the price
would definitely be a ton better. It's sort of like the difference between
buying a Coke from a vending machine, and buying a case from Costco....and
also realizing that the same Coke from a soda fountain only costs cents for
the same amount.... volume, packaging, ease of production, costs of
fulfillment - all factors that determine the product economics....



Cheers -

Rob







"Hylourgos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There's something I don't understand here that I'm curious about. Rob
> Pelc wrote:
>
> "And as far as Lee Valley....if you are happy paying $17.90 sq. ft for
> Canarywood, $25.00 for Paduak, and $17.00 for Purpleheart....than good
> for you. Seeing that I charge $4.75 for canarywood, $3.95 for Paduak,
> and $3.95 for purpleheart, plus $0.30 per bd ft for surfacing."
>
> Robin, you responded:
>
> "We resell a tiny bit of project wood bought from a commercial US
> supplier - we don't make money from it - it's a convenience item for
> our customers. Our prices reflect our costs - that's all there is to
> it. We're not a wood supplier, and don't pretend to be."
>
> While I realize that this thread is really addressing customer
> relations and the proper rhetoric of that, it's the economics that has
> me stumped here, so I'm going to leave out all the emotional stuff and
> just ask a question about wood economy.
>
> The difference in prices between the same wood (at least you didn't
> mention any difference) is shocking, to me at least. The fact that, as
> you state, you're not a wood supplier explains some of that, but 4.7
> times as much? Wouldn't it be a convenience to your customers--if less
> expense may be termed a convenience--to just buy from a source like
> Rob who apparently is charging much less than your commercial
> supplier, add your cost then pass the savings to the customer? I can't
> imagine how that would cost 4.7 times as much....
>
> As I say, however, I'm ignorant of wood economy, so you may have a
> perfectly good reason that I can understand. It wouldn't be the first
> time I found myself ignorant of something everybody else knew...
>
> Respectfully,
> H

Rob,

This is a tough crowd here, as I'm sure you've noticed. Forgiveness
isn't one of it's virtues, I'm afraid.

Why not add a S&H charge to cover expenses for smaller orders? Wouldn't
that be a win/win solution? If you product prices are comparatively
low, then additional charges for S&H might be palatable to the small
quantity customers.

There are a number of methods for charging:

1. Charge 'actual' shipping charges
2. Charge a set fee for handling (Ignoring your actual shipping charge)
3. Charge a set fee for handling, plus actual shipping charges
3. Charge a set fee for handling, based on several purchase total ranges
, with the higher fees charged to larger orders.
4. Charge a set fee for handling, based on several purchase total ranges
, with the higher fees charged to SMALLER orders.

I've never figured out why some companies charge MORE S&H for the more
expensive order, while others reduce or eliminate the S&H charge
entirely for larger orders.

Many places provide charts based on the customer's address so that they
can see what "zone" they will be charged for...

Look at Amazon: orders over $25 - no charge


To keep the "little guy" happy, perhaps you could ship ANY size order,
as long as everyone is aware of a fair, SET pricing structure for S&H.
I've ordered items totaling as little as $18 and gladly paid the
shipping charges, because I need the items. IF the company said, that
no we can't send you those things, because it's too small of an order,
I'd be pretty frosted! Percentage wise, I know I'm taking a big hit on
S&H for a small order, but that's MY DECISION. Don't take that option
away from your customers, is my humble suggestion.


dave



dave

Rob Pelc wrote:

> I can see that my point was totally missed. My intention was not to
> bash anyone or attack any company. Although I clearly see how it was
> taken that way given the high strung enthusiasm here including my own.
>
> I have always enjoyed dealing with the smaller customers for a $5
> sale, $100 sale or whatever. But the truth is that we cannot make a
> profit on wrapping up a small order and shipping it out with the
> current system that we have. We still welcome small walk in sales.
>
> I was upset at Reneta accusing my company of not caring about the
> little guys.
> That was my loosely used definition of "bashing". For 10 years I have
> always been polite and helpful to a ton of small customers that have
> ordered mail orders or walk-ins. We have been forced to put in place
> the $500 minimum for orders shipped out because of the time it takes
> to pull a order, being that we currently have too much wood in too
> little space.....NOT because we do not care about the "little guys".
> Because in all honesty they are much more fun to deal with, chat about
> woodworking, and buy small woodworking projects from. For us to
> package & ship out a order under $500 cost us money at the small
> margins we operate at, given our current setup. It was explained that
> the $500 minimum was most probably temporary until we get a better
> system in place for handling the smaller orders, which includes adding
> more space. We have not "forgotten about the little guys" as we still
> and always will welcome walk-ins. I got emotional over the issue
> because of my high regard for the "little guys" and for that I am
> sorry Reneta.
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Rob Pelc
> http://wwww.AdvantageLumber.com/
> http://www.IpeDepot.com/
> toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
>
> [email protected] (Renata) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
>>they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
>>that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>>
>>Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>>
>>But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
>>from PA on Monday.
>>
>>Renata

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in
<[email protected]>:

>Hey Pelc -
>
>Take a pill...
>
<snip>
>You see, we do this because we have this weird idea that all customers
>are good customers....not just the "big" ones.... as a matter of fact,
>we've even found that sometimes, "small" customers turn into "big"
>customers....
>
<snip>

Just purchased a new router table/fence setup from LeeValley. Deciding
factor between competing quality products from various vendors was Rob Lee's
reputation for customer service.

Looks like I've ruled out a potential supplier (Advantage) for wood. If I
was buying a large order, I'd go local and save hefty shipping. Getting wood
from upstate NY or any other distance is reserved for a small quantity of a
desired "special" wood. Since that service is now not provided by Advantage,
maybe I'll just drive the 7 hours so I can be a walk in customer ....RIGHT!

Jerry

On Fri 19 Dec 2003 04:45:37p, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> The follow-up show
> will show him living incognito in a small villa in Spain. GET REAL!
>

I'm sorry Dave, sometimes I need things spelled out for me. Was that
facetious?

Dan

Jules wrote:
> In fairnes I am sure you know but I will mention it. Rob was not the
> first ot bring LV into this. (Renata) He was not even the second. (Mike)
> And his response was limited to the scope of this thread. And RL himself
> pointed out they do not try to be a wood supplier. It was unfair and
> wrong to bring them into this. If you want to compare apples to apples,
> compare his customer relations to other wood suppliers.

Actually, I was the first to bring LV into this as an example of good
customer service (outstanding more like it).

I don't care if a company is selling lumber, tools, widgets, or
watchamacallits, good customer relations are good customer relations. In
that sense, I feel the comparison is valid.

...Mike

"Rob Pelc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Renata,
> I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company.


Would you like some cheese to go with that whine?

"Mike in Mystic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Well, you make it sound like you're the best game in town and if we don't
> like it than "neener neener". That simply isn't true. For example, about
2
> hours drive from me is the Connecticut Wood Group Hardwood Outlet in
> Enfield, CT.

Wow. I went to woodfinder (www.woodfinder.com) and found out that CWG HO is
69 miles from me. I have gone out of my way to Highland Hardwood in
Brentwood, NH for great selection and pretty good prices, but to save 50
miles and an hour's time sounds like a plan to me. I have an excellent
lumber yard about 45 minutes from my home (Curtis Lumber in Ballston Spa,
NY) that sells many exostics and domestics, but you can't buy it roughsawn.
It's all S4S. Great if that's your thing, but I will not but S4S lumber, so
I have to find it elsewhere.

At this point, I'm even way beyond buying lumber. I'll buy exotics like
cocobolo, purpleheart, jatoba, etc. as long as I can get roughsawn, but for
domestic species, I have loggers actively searching for species I want so I
can saw them myself (on the Wood-Mizer) and air-dry. (meep-meep - vroooom!)

Note - blatant plugs for wood sources here are the findings of a satisfied
customer. No affiliation, no SPAM, etc.


--
Jon Endres, PE
Reply To: wmengineer (at) adelphia (dot) net

Mike Alexander wrote:
>
> It's as Robin said, LV is not a lumber yard. They primarily sell tools
> and garden stuff.
>

Doh! Forgot the hardware. They also sell hardware. Not like plumbing and
such, but rather hard to find hinges and knobs and handles and such.

...Mike

[email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Renata,
> Not to come off like an "arogant ass"

Too late, you do come off as an "arogant ass". Your website is your
link to the public. It should have been updated prior to you making
this change. Hopefully soon, the web will be regulated and companies
will have abide with what they tell or don't tell the customer just as
they would if it was a print ad. There have already been a number of
lower court rulings forcing companies to comply with what their web
sites say.

But your right, it's your business and you can do whatever you want
but I think Renata is completly justified in her response.

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hey Pelc -
>
> Take a pill...
SNIP.....

Zing! Lick index finger and mark of one tick mark in the air.

GO Robin.

To Mr Pelc: Quit while you are behing. (shut up , you are not helping your
case.)

Bay Area Dave wrote:

> rant off.

Renata has as much right to rant about a lumberyard's new policy as you
do to rant about Renata's rant.

I think Renata's rant was more on topic and contained useful information
for quite a few people, but sometimes that's not the yardstick. However,
I think Renata was right to rant and ranted rightly, while you have the
right to wrongly rant and ranted wrong. But not long.

Dan

"Nova" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Rob stated that, at this time, he doesn't know if $500 minimum
> order will be permanent.

It won't matter much if he changes six months from now. The small order guy
will have found new sources and Advantage can find new "big" customers.
Ed

You didn't do yourself any favors with this post, buddy. I've not been a
customer of yours in the past -- and you may be assured that I won't be in the
future, either.

Have a nice day.

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote:
>Renata,
>I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
>responded to your email on Monday nicely explaining our policy. We
>also nicely explained to you on the phone our new policy and that we
>are working on updating our website to reflect our new policy.
>
>We have not raised our prices in the last 5 years. With the rising
>cost of doing businesss every company must make periodic changes in
>order to stay afloat. Rather than raising prices which would effect
>the majority of our customers we felt it was better to employ a policy
>of a larger minimum order. The majority of our customers have coupled
>there orders with freinds to meet the minimum.
>
>I regret that you are "a tad annoyed" with us making an effort to stay
>in bussiness in a difficult economy. Maybe you could buy me out, I
>could work for you, and you could then use your great wisdom to show
>me how to pay the bills by taking $12.00 orders.
>
>And by the way please see if my competators will match my prices,
>offer access to $250,000.00 in milling equipment, and not have a
>minimum order.
>
>Not to come off like an "arogant ass" but I am a tad annoyed by your
>jumping to the gun to bash my company. A company I started when I was
>19 years old, A company that I swallowed my pride for and borowed from
>everyone I know to get going, A company that I have worked 80 to 100 a
>week to get where it is, A company that has made every effort to
>satisfy every customer, A company that cares to take the time to post
>to the Rec.
>
>We value all of our customers and hope that they would rather couple
>an order with a friend or neighbor (at the same time getting a better
>deal on shipping charges) than to pay higher prices. I tend to
>believe that someone that does not agree with my opinion on this has
>not yet been self employed.
>
>Best Regards,
>Rob Pelc - owner Advantage Trim & Lumber Company
>http://www.AdvantageLumber.com/
>http://www.IpeDepot.com/
>toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
>[email protected] (Renata) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
>> they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
>> that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>>
>> Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>>
>> But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
>> from PA on Monday.
>>
>> Renata

"Robin Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Hey Pelc -
> Take a pill...

You sir, Mr. Lee, are top-notch, in all respects.
Please take this in the best spirit I intend, when I say "Your parents did
good on you!" :)

> What separates the CEO from a contract janitor?

It is not I.Q. Mensans have scrubbed toilets of people driven away by
chauffeurs.

Rob,

Unfortunately, your response here has not helped your cause. While I can
understand your postiion regarding making a profit, even the small order
customers can make money for you. There's ways to do it. Your price
structure should (and has, IIRC) reflect quantity discounts. For small
orders, institute a handling fee, or raise the price per board foot.

I have been a customer of yours in the recent past, both mail order and
walk-in (although the eight-hour drive for the walk-in was a pain), and
while I have been satisfied with the service and the helpfulness of you and
your staff, I guess your new policy will not allow me to be a customer of
yours again. There's no way I can justify $500 worth of anything for the
amount of woodworking I do, and I don't find myself in Buffalo very often.

FWiW, don't make it sound like you need to be self-employed for someone to
understand your position. I have been running my own engineering company
for several years, and the small jobs and short consultations are truly the
bread and butter - they pay the bills, and allow me to concentrate on
quality.

--
Jon Endres, PE
Reply To: wmengineer (at) adelphia (dot) net

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> from dictionary.com
> Bash: To engage in harsh, accusatory, threatening criticism.
> *********
>
> I wasn't "bashing" your company and it's too bad you're so sensitive
> (?) as to feel the need to "bash" one of your former customers and
> former supporters on this forum. As I stated (both on the phone w/you
> and in my article here), I never received your email (even went back
> and checked to see if it inadvertantly got mixed in w/trashed spam -
> nope).
>
> Your tone in this response is unwarranted and IMHO adds to the
> increasingly negative view you're acquiring. Perhaps a dose of
> maturity is in order. (actually, I really don't know how to
> characterize what's in order, just that something is - I was rather
> surprised by your personal attack here).
>
... snip

Renata,

I also failed to see where you were "bashing" Advantage Lumber,
but more or less informing people of the new policy (which at the time
was not general knowledge nor available from the company web site) and
lamenting the need to find a new supplier.

As far as Advantage not raising prices in 5 years, I am somewhat
amazed that they can do that given the commodity nature of wood, with
wild variations in prices -- both up and down. Now, not raising
shipping and handling prices, I can see that as a business decision to
not pass on some price increases to customers, but I suspect that modest
rises in those prices would be understood by customers given the reality
of the rises in actual shipping costs.

That's the nicest thing you ever said to me, Ed. I'm touched.

dave

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

> "Bob S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Dave,
>>
>>Get a life...
>>
>>snipe of Bay Area Dave's dribble.....
>
>
>
> He has a life. He is dedicated to getting people riled. Seems to be doing
> a very good job.
> Congrats, Dave,
> Ed
> [email protected]
> http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
>
>

Mark Jerde wrote:

>> I'm not a business owner either, and I like it that way.

> I humbly suggest you *DO* *NOT* like it that way!!!!!!! ;-)

Yeah, I do to. I may not love my job, but I have no desire to go into
business for myself. As long as I'm working, I'll be working for someone
else. Letting someone else get ulcers and pull his hair out and work 100+
hour weeks.

I hate risk. Going into business is like playing Russian roulette with five
bullets in the cylinder.

> If you want to amass $1M & live off the interest you probably have just
> three options:
> - The lottery
> - Starting a business which becomes successful
> - Study & emulate people who "made it."

You forgot

- get discovered, make a million bucks as Silvan the Schlong

<BSEG>

> BTW, I have read of bus drivers who were able to meet their financial

Bus drivers... Sure, but self-employed bus drivers? What does being
self-employed, or an aversion to such, have to do with retiring at 35?

Anyway, set all the other arguments pro and con aside. The bottom line with
business is that if *I* don't wholeheartedly *believe* I can do it, then I
can't. There's never been anything I was prepared to put my ass on the
line for. If I have doubts, you can bet my investors will have doubts too.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

This has been a most interesting thread.

I live about 85 miles away from Advantage Lumber in Rochester. I've
been giving serious consideration to driving out to Advantage and
loading up the car with lumber for my next few projects. I can get
the lumber locally, but the prices aren't as good as Mr. Pelc's.

After reading this thread, I've decided not to make the trip and will
spend my money at Pittsford Lumber instead. Even though I'd be
picking up the lumber (and wouldn't be subjected to the $500 limit), I
now won't consider making the trip based solely on principle. If Mr.
Pelc wants only high-volume mail order customers, then that's his
choice and I personally have no problem with it. But to start talking
smack about a potential customer because she doesn't like your new
policy, and then rip into Lee Valley for no good reason? I *do* have
a problem with that. It leaves me with the impression that although
you might sell me my lumber, my business would apparently be an
inconvenience to you.

Enjoy your $4.75 canarywood, $3.95 Paduak, and $3.95 purpleheart...I
suspect that it'll be sitting on the shelf a lot longer than it used
to.

TomL wrote:
> Ummm, Rob.... you forgot to apologize to Robin Lee.


Actually I was wondering if a good ass kissing to Lee Valley
was in order.

UA100

Rob Pelc wrote:
> Renata,
> I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We

I didn't think Renata was "bashing your company". Sounds to me like he
was telling it like it is. You changed your policy, and you have annoyed
at least one customer (I expect you have annoyed many customers with
this change). Personally, if I was a customer of yours, I would more
than just "a tad annoyed", I would be right pissed off with your change
of policy. But, since I am not a customer of yours, all this policy
change means to me is, I never will be.

Check out Lee Valley if you want a good example of how to operate and
grow a business.

...Mike

$250,000.00 in milling equipment, but can't afford a spell checker.....

Rob Pelc wrote:

> Renata,
> I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
> responded to your email on Monday nicely explaining our policy. We
> also nicely explained to you on the phone our new policy and that we
> are working on updating our website to reflect our new policy.
>
> We have not raised our prices in the last 5 years. With the rising
> cost of doing businesss every company must make periodic changes in
> order to stay afloat. Rather than raising prices which would effect
> the majority of our customers we felt it was better to employ a policy
> of a larger minimum order. The majority of our customers have coupled
> there orders with freinds to meet the minimum.
>
> I regret that you are "a tad annoyed" with us making an effort to stay
> in bussiness in a difficult economy. Maybe you could buy me out, I
> could work for you, and you could then use your great wisdom to show
> me how to pay the bills by taking $12.00 orders.
>
> And by the way please see if my competators will match my prices,
> offer access to $250,000.00 in milling equipment, and not have a
> minimum order.
>
> Not to come off like an "arogant ass" but I am a tad annoyed by your
> jumping to the gun to bash my company. A company I started when I was
> 19 years old, A company that I swallowed my pride for and borowed from
> everyone I know to get going, A company that I have worked 80 to 100 a
> week to get where it is, A company that has made every effort to
> satisfy every customer, A company that cares to take the time to post
> to the Rec.
>
> We value all of our customers and hope that they would rather couple
> an order with a friend or neighbor (at the same time getting a better
> deal on shipping charges) than to pay higher prices. I tend to
> believe that someone that does not agree with my opinion on this has
> not yet been self employed.
>
> Best Regards,
> Rob Pelc - owner Advantage Trim & Lumber Company
> http://www.AdvantageLumber.com/
> http://www.IpeDepot.com/
> toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
> [email protected] (Renata) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
>>they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
>>that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>>
>>Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>>
>>But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
>>from PA on Monday.
>>
>>Renata

Philip Lewis wrote:

> but then, i'm not a business owner... so what the heck do i know?

You know enough to avoid starting a business. :)

I'm not a business owner either, and I like it that way.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Renata) wrote:

> No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>
> Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>
> But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> from PA on Monday.
>
> Renata

Where does this information come from?

The website still says, in animation on each page, "Need just a board,
need a bundle, need a truck load? We can meet your lumber needs."

I couldn't find any mention of a minimum order EXCEPT for milled thin
wood (under 4/4). At the top of the retail price list it says there is a
50 (fifty) dollar minimum. I didn't see a minimum on any of the other
price lists and no mention anywhere I looked of a $500 minimum.

Either the Web site has not been updated or you've been smoking
something strong....

--
Regards,

Benoit Evans

Yup!

dave

Dan wrote:

> On Fri 19 Dec 2003 04:45:37p, Bay Area Dave <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>
>>The follow-up show
>>will show him living incognito in a small villa in Spain. GET REAL!
>>
>
>
> I'm sorry Dave, sometimes I need things spelled out for me. Was that
> facetious?
>
> Dan

Right, Bob! This is the FIRST time in the annals of history that
somebody has made an unpopular statement in a newsgroup! I'm sure that
he'll be the focus of this week's Sixty Minutes, entitled, "I had the
audacity to tick off the denizens of the Wreck". The follow-up show
will show him living incognito in a small villa in Spain. GET REAL!

dave

Bob S. wrote:

Snip self-serving drivel...

> He'll be lucky if this little diatribe of his isn't picked up by the local
> newspapers. I doubt he's gained any customers from this, surely he's lost
> some and that was by his own hand.


snip

One last beating of the dead horse...

(interspersed)

Renata
(who still hasn't made it to Exotic Lumber for her cherry because the
neighbor who offered use of her truck got tied up yesterday, and my
annual holiday get to gether with the plumber (dang drain clogged
right on schedule) is today. See, this is why I like mail order -
order it and it arrives on your doorstep, no fuss, no muss).


On 19 Dec 2003 06:11:26 -0800, [email protected] (Rob Pelc) wrote:

>I can see that my point was totally missed. My intention was not to
>bash anyone or attack any company.

I that case, you blew it.

>Although I clearly see how it was
>taken that way given the high strung enthusiasm here including my own.

Perhaps in the heat of the moment you did read more into my responsce
than was actually there, but there's no doubt your reply was an attack
(or "bashing").
And, as a business owner you have more to lose when you let loose,
than someone casually posting some diatribe about politics, etc.

>
>I have always enjoyed dealing with the smaller customers for a $5
>sale, $100 sale or whatever. But the truth is that we cannot make a
>profit on wrapping up a small order and shipping it out with the
>current system that we have. We still welcome small walk in sales.
>

My posting simply stated your new policy on a forum where I know a
number of folks woulda been interested in the info. In that posting I
also let your casual dismissal of small orders be known because I had
a bit of an issue with that. (Remember when on the phone I said
"There are gonna be a number of folks on rec.ww'g that are gonna be
unhappy". and you (or your assistant) replied, "I don't think so" in a
sort of condescending tone?) <-crux of my issue

Your subsequent posting on this group attacking me (and Lee Valley)
made clear your disregard for us (wRECk'rs) as your customers. Your
trying to back pedal out of it is kinda disingenuous and doesn't
really fit your words from before. Perhpas you should heed the advice
someone posted about filing away your response for a couple days,
before posting.

** To be clear, one last time - my issue was with your attitude, not
your business decision. You compounded that bad attitude in your
posting. **

It's very nice that you've gotten so successful that you can only
afford to deal with large customers. I presume you're more careful
with your words around them since they're quite important to you.


>I was upset at Reneta accusing my company of not caring about the
>little guys.


Because you apparently no longer can afford to care about them.


>That was my loosely used definition of "bashing". For 10 years I have
>always been polite and helpful to a ton of small customers that have
>ordered mail orders or walk-ins. We have been forced to put in place
>the $500 minimum for orders shipped out because of the time it takes
>to pull a order, being that we currently have too much wood in too
>little space.....NOT because we do not care about the "little guys".
>Because in all honesty they are much more fun to deal with, chat about
>woodworking, and buy small woodworking projects from. For us to
>package & ship out a order under $500 cost us money at the small
>margins we operate at, given our current setup. It was explained that
>the $500 minimum was most probably temporary until we get a better
>system in place for handling the smaller orders, which includes adding
>more space. We have not "forgotten about the little guys" as we still
>and always will welcome walk-ins. I got emotional over the issue
>because of my high regard for the "little guys" and for that I am
>sorry Reneta.

Business decision understandable. Attitude not.


>
>
>Best Regards,
>Rob Pelc
>http://wwww.AdvantageLumber.com/
>http://www.IpeDepot.com/
>toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
>
>[email protected] (Renata) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
>> they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
>> that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
>>
>> Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
>>
>> But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
>> from PA on Monday.
>>
>> Renata

smart, not dumb for email

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:36:33 GMT, Nova <[email protected]>
wrote:


>I should mention that the policy applies to only orders that have to be
>shipped. There is no minimum order if the lumber is "pick up" (I know their are
>a few who have made the trip to Buffalo to do so).

We could have you pick it up and ship it to us. <G>

Barry

I fail to see why a business can't set a policy and folks either abide
by it and are customers or they don't and avoid said business. It's
free enterprise, last time I checked. Some businesses don't even give
refunds. They are required to state that prominently, and if you find
that off-putting, shop somewhere else. But there is no need to make a
scene at the place of business.

There is a major pet store in our area that doesn't take Visa. I can
choose to either pay cash, write a check, or avoid the store. I don't
think it is my prerogative to berate the store for their policy. If it
works for them, more power to them. IF it doesn't, then they will
change it when they see the negative impact that it has on their bottom
line. No one put a gun to my head and said that I must shop there.

rant off.

dave

Dave Mundt wrote:

> Greetings and Salutations.
>
> On 18 Dec 2003 12:13:29 -0800, [email protected] (Matt) wrote:
>
>
>>LOL! First you trash a customer, now you trash other merchants. I'd
>>tell you to quit while you're a head, but we're passed that now aren't
>>we...
>>
>>Matt
>>
>
> If Advantage wants to set a minimum purchase...that's
> fine...I am sure that they realize that they are cutting out
> a chunk of the population that might buy (or has bought) from
> them.
> It always is a bummer when life changes like this...and
> we have something taken away that we had before. However,
> there are other sources of wood that still will go with the
> smaller consumer...so the best thing to do is find them
> and move on.
> Man...from all the testiness in this thread, one
> would almost think it is the Christmas Season!
> Regards
> Dave Mundt
>

On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:45:53 GMT, "Mark Jerde"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>> What separates the CEO from a contract janitor?
>>
>> It is not I.Q. Mensans have scrubbed toilets of people driven away by
>> chauffeurs.
>
>Anyone?
>
>I have met people who lived in California and:
> - Flew from CA to the east coast of the USA on Monday.
> - Worked Tuesday - Thursday
> - Flew back to CA on Friday.
>And the company they worked for paid the tickets.
>
>Why are most employees interchangeable at minimum wage or better, but a tiny
>fraction worth paying > 200K per year to only work 3 days per week as in my
>example?

Details.

I never made 200k a year, but in a past life flew all over the place
to work. In one instance, I was a network guy, and another case I was
a sound engineer. In either case, many average people could have
developed the skills needed, but _I_ had the basics, and the specifics
needed for the particular situation. For instance many people can mix
live sound, only I knew the details for certain shows. In the case of
the network stuff, much of the work can be done from afar, so if
someone has to make the trip, something's in serious do-do.

One time, a three day weekend consisted of Boston to Hamilton,
Bermuda, to Miami. Customs just loves you when you're there for one
day. <G>

FWIW, I consider the travel _WORK_ when required by the job. The guy
in the example above really did work five days. Not to mention the
fact that on-site network days, and show days for the sound gig, were
often 12-14 hours long. If I can't do my own thing at a specific time
due to my boss's requirements, I consider that on-duty! <G> It's not
the guy above could mow his lawn or go bicycling on Monday and Friday.

Barry

In article <d%[email protected]>,
"Mark Jerde" <[email protected]> wrote:

> > What separates the CEO from a contract janitor?
>
> It is not I.Q. Mensans have scrubbed toilets of people driven away by
> chauffeurs.
>
>
>

Sometimes it's smart to be the toilet scrubber. Comes the revolution,
it's not the toilet scrubbers who tend to get strung up.

Did you ever see/read "I, Claudius"?

Hylourgos wrote:
> As I understand it then, would you say that the difference in price
> (4.7 times) is accounted for by a) wood quality and b) prep work for
> smaller stock/higher quality items in a non-wood supplier store? Do I
> have that right?

It's as Robin said, LV is not a lumber yard. They primarily sell tools
and garden stuff.

The project wood they sell comes in 3"x24" pieces, with thicknesses
ranging from 1/8" to 3/4". There is no pine, oak or even cherry. It is
all reasonably exotic woods. When you are dealing with pieces of wood
that small, nicks and knots, or any other imperfections make a piece
unusable, so all of their pieces are completely clear.

As for volume, I don't know how much they keep in the back, but all the
pieces they keep on the floor in the store I go to, fit in a cabinet
rougly 5'x3'x24". That is for all species. That's pretty low volume, but
as Robin pointed out, it is meant as a convenience item for their
customers, not a major profit item.

I wouldn't be going to LV to buy enough lumber for a table, but if I
just need a little bit of something exotic for an inlay, it's much
better than the long drive to the lumber yard where I'll have to buy a
piece much bigger than what I really need.

...Mike

Larry Jaques wrote:

> I think Rob did himself a secondary disservice by the tone of his
> reply to Renata. Unemotional facts would have sufficed (perhaps with

Absolutely.

He probably would have gotten some business from me sooner or later, but
there's no chance of that now. Talk about having a pissy attitude!

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan <[email protected]>
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

"Rob Pelc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Renata,
> I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We

> believe that someone that does not agree with my opinion on this has
> not yet been self employed.
>

Dear Sir,

I'm surprised that you'd be so foolish as to "respond in kind" in a public
forum that gets archived.
Sounds like your company is privately held - as if it were public, you'd
have been called to task for writing such a missive. If you were in my
organization, you'd be dismissed for exercising such poor judgment.

We'll let the market dictate what happens next to your company. You may
find respite, if the majority of your customers don't use Usenet.

In the spirit of trying to be helpful, I'd like to suggest a common, but
effective, technique should this happen again. Next time you're irked by
such a complaint, write a response with all the acerbic/caustic/vitriolic
venom you can muster. Then put the response in your desk drawer (or save it
in your "drafts" folder) unsent for 48 hours. After time expires, review
your epistle and then decide whether you send it or delete it.

You're welcome.

In closing - you've not lost any business from me. But you've created quite
an impression. One that I'll share should I overhear a potential customer
asking about "Advantage Lumber".

I cannot believe the attack on Lee Valley. If a company wants to sell
wood at $7,500 per board foot, that is between them and their customers.

I have had good luck with the folks at:
http://www.hartzellwoodstock.bigstep.com/

I do not know what their minimum shipments might be because my order was
fairly large. However, the wood quality was great and the board footage was
generous.


--
dbchamber at hotmail spam dot com

Remove the spam to reach me

"Bob S." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave,
>
> Get a life...
>
> snipe of Bay Area Dave's dribble.....


He has a life. He is dedicated to getting people riled. Seems to be doing
a very good job.
Congrats, Dave,
Ed
[email protected]
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome

P.S.

> Oh? Not long ago you were discussing the difficulties of getting a
> dental appointment...

To rub salt in an open wound <g> there is a tiny minority of people who
have such services come to them at their convenience. Remember in the early
days of the Clinton administration when a haircut aboard Air Force One shut
down LAX?

What separates the CEO from a contract janitor?

-- Mark

I purchased one order from your company, Rob. I was very happy with it and
especially the ability to deal with smaller orders, have it delivered to my
house at a reasonable cost, and even the way you dealt with me personably
when I called with questions. I even recommended you to several of my
friends, and pointed in your direction on this newsgroup.

Well, you make it sound like you're the best game in town and if we don't
like it than "neener neener". That simply isn't true. For example, about 2
hours drive from me is the Connecticut Wood Group Hardwood Outlet in
Enfield, CT. They have a very good selection of hardwood, although I admit
it isn't quite as diverse as yours. Their prices are perhaps a bit higher
than your listed ones (maybe 5% or so). The thing is, they don't have a
minimum order. They have expensive milling equipment. They have hardwood
plywood, moldings, etc. etc. And they bust their butt to help you when you
come in to look around and buy lumber. Sure, I have to take a half-day to
get my lumber. That's the only reason I ordered from you before - that and
you had a special on the wood I needed at that time. You sure aren't going
to get my business anymore, as you probably can tell (and likely don't care,
considering your attitude shown here).

Honestly, it seems that you have lost touch with what a service business is
about - the customer. If you wanted to avoid alienating people, why didn't
you just raise prices to cover the costs on smaller orders? 5-10% for
orders under 100 bf, or something like that? I generally understand the
value of scale, and don't get too bent out of shape when I run into that.
But, closing the door on your smaller customers completely just means we
won't ever come knocking again.

Mike

"Rob Pelc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Renata,
> I am surprised by your lack of character by bashing my company. We
> responded to your email on Monday nicely explaining our policy. We
> also nicely explained to you on the phone our new policy and that we
> are working on updating our website to reflect our new policy.
>
> We have not raised our prices in the last 5 years. With the rising
> cost of doing businesss every company must make periodic changes in
> order to stay afloat. Rather than raising prices which would effect
> the majority of our customers we felt it was better to employ a policy
> of a larger minimum order. The majority of our customers have coupled
> there orders with freinds to meet the minimum.
>
> I regret that you are "a tad annoyed" with us making an effort to stay
> in bussiness in a difficult economy. Maybe you could buy me out, I
> could work for you, and you could then use your great wisdom to show
> me how to pay the bills by taking $12.00 orders.
>
> And by the way please see if my competators will match my prices,
> offer access to $250,000.00 in milling equipment, and not have a
> minimum order.
>
> Not to come off like an "arogant ass" but I am a tad annoyed by your
> jumping to the gun to bash my company. A company I started when I was
> 19 years old, A company that I swallowed my pride for and borowed from
> everyone I know to get going, A company that I have worked 80 to 100 a
> week to get where it is, A company that has made every effort to
> satisfy every customer, A company that cares to take the time to post
> to the Rec.
>
> We value all of our customers and hope that they would rather couple
> an order with a friend or neighbor (at the same time getting a better
> deal on shipping charges) than to pay higher prices. I tend to
> believe that someone that does not agree with my opinion on this has
> not yet been self employed.
>
> Best Regards,
> Rob Pelc - owner Advantage Trim & Lumber Company
> http://www.AdvantageLumber.com/
> http://www.IpeDepot.com/
> toll free 1-877-232-3915
>
>
> [email protected] (Renata) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > No longer "small orders or large" - now it's a $500 minimum. Guess
> > they've gotten so successful they can now forget about the little guys
> > that helped them get there, by spreading the word, etc.
> >
> > Yes, I'm just a tad annoyed.
> >
> > But, now I get to try out Exotic Lumber in Gaithersburg on my way back
> > from PA on Monday.
> >
> > Renata