apologizing for your tools

Electric Comet <[email protected]> on Wed, 28 Mar 2018
09:47:00 -0700 typed in rec.woodworking the following:
>knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>in his shop
>
>but always said but look at my work
>
>his stuff sold well and not cheap
>
>most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more

It is all about technique. Some have it, and some don't.

I recall an article in a wood working mag., Guy was traveling in
that part of the world where all this marvelous furniture came from.
Got a tour of a factory, and was surprised to discover that these
intricately turned and carved tales and such, were done with a very
small set of tools. And those turned table legs? Shaped with a hand
plane and carved to final.
Yowza.


>for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>more challenging but more gratifying
>
>if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>does not matter how you did it or what tools were used

Yep.

Although it would be nice to have a powered saw to rip a couple
feet of doweling to use as decoration.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:32:17 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>=20
> >On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> >> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
> >> in his shop
> >>=20
> >> but always said but look at my work
> >>=20
> >> his stuff sold well and not cheap
> >>=20
> >> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
> >>=20
> >> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is=
=20
> >> more challenging but more gratifying
> >
> >Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound =
in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than som=
eone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and=
nail gun?
> >
> >
> >
> >>=20
> >> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
> >> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
> >
> >True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how yo=
u got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a ha=
ndsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a=
chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you=
can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use =
them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not h=
ow you got there.
>=20
> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.

I disagree.

Even with the cost of my tools, I guarantee I've saved a ton of money by=20
doing woodworking.

Right from the get-go I bought a cheap circular saw and drill and built my=
=20
own platform bed for much cheaper than I could have bought one. SWMBO and I=
=20
enjoyed it for 37 years.=20

With some slightly better tools later on, I built oak bunk beds for my
boys that I probably couldn't have afforded to buy. That bunk bed, now=20
split into singles, is still in use 30 years later. i.e. another 2 beds tha=
t=20
didn't need to be bought.

I built my deck for the cost of the materials plus a tool or two (or three?=
)
but still way cheaper than having somebody else build it.

I built a pretty nice rustic bed for my daughter from reclaimed wood and=20
didn't have to, but did ;-) buy a single tool.

The pair of book cases I'm building now would have to be custom made to not
only match each other but also fit correctly in spaces that differ by about=
=20
2.5".

The list goes on. I started doing woodworking both for the fun and for the=
=20
savings. I couldn't afford what I wanted, but I could afford the tools, the=
=20
materials and the time. When you spread the cost of the tools across multip=
le
projects, the savings pay for them eventually.

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 6:21:40 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 3/28/2018 5:23 PM, ads wrote:
> > On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:47:00 -0700, Electric Comet
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
> >> in his shop
>
> Why?
>
> >>
> >> but always said but look at my work
> >>
> >> his stuff sold well and not cheap
> >>
> >> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
> >>
> >> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
> >> more challenging but more gratifying
>
> I started out that way but when I began to sell 90% of my work, and not
> cheap either, I found that better tools afforded me the ability to build
> faster quality products. That put a bigger smile on my face than
> working with lesser quality tools.
>
>
> >>
> >> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
> >> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
> >>
>
> Well, that is, until you work with better quality tools. I have worked
> with both, I prefer better tools.

That applies to both women and tools. ;-)

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 5:53:55 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 15:08:48 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On 4/1/2018 12:39 PM, Leon wrote:
> >> On 4/1/2018 9:54 AM, dpb wrote:
> >>> On 4/1/2018 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
> >>> ...
> >>>
> >>>> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the
> >>>> guy you are disagreeing with.
> >>>
> >>> The guy he's disagreeing with tends to disagree as a matter of course.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >> +1
> >
> >True, krw does tend to disagree as a matter of course, just as most
> >everyone here, other than the electric comet, who seldom disagrees, so
> >he gets trashed for lack of punctuation.
>
> No, when I disagree I state my disagreement. Unlike others, I rarely
> write anything to hear myself talk.
> >
> >Myself, I agreed with Keith if you include time as a factor, and I
> >agreed with the Derby dude if you exclude time as a factor. The rest of
> >you are just pissing in the wind...
>
> No, I'm not including the time factor. The average person will never
> pay off tools by making furniture. If he's buying tools just to save
> money, it'll never work.

What is an "average person" in this regard?

The very talented Leon certainly isn't "average"? I, a long term novice,
certainly isn't "average". We've both paid off our tools by building
furniture so we must not be average.

What does your "average person" look like?

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
> in his shop

> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more

With almost 45 years of doing woodwork in all phases professionally (includ=
ing sweeping the jobs), I can't stand tool snobbery. It is usually propaga=
ted by the more financially well to do that think the tools make the projec=
t or job.

More often than not, tools these days are engineered for ease of use and to=
make up for the extreme lack of hand skills most of today's craftsmen and =
professionals have. There is a jig, a guide, a template, a machine and all =
sorts of other apparatus out there to day to make up for talent and trainin=
g. Lack of talent and training leads to stifling the experimentation that =
leads to developing confidence in one's ability.

When I am tired of the whining from the current labor/employee pool about h=
ow certain things cannot be done with certain tools, I take a very sad and =
pathetic pleasure of showing them how to do the task with their tools. Not=
mine, theirs. Our lack of investment in hands on industries as well as th=
e lack of interest from people in the trades is in full blossom now. Most =
actually think that buying a certain tool will transfer certain skills as i=
f by osmosis.

Good tools will at times help turn out a better job, but learning to use ji=
gs and purpose built machines has crippled most craftsmen. I have heard it=
more times than I can count; "you know, if I had one of those XXXXXX machi=
nes, I would start doing that".

I learned how to make doors with lumberyard materials, hang them in a site =
built jamb, mortise in the hinges, and drill/mortise/install the door lock =
sets and deadbolts. My tools were a good circular saw with a new blade (st=
eel!), a drill, hole saw, chisel, hammer, and some old "pony" pipe clamps.

Now I have trouble getting guys to hang a door properly, and any heavy or o=
ff balance doors I have to hang myself. Forget hiring someone that can mak=
e a jamb that fits a door. They know that in their mind it takes an extens=
ive set of tools to do so, but they don't know what those tools actually mi=
ght be.

OTOH, I have been to homeowner's houses and seen work that was fantastic. =
I go out in their humble shops and see bare bones tools, and certainly noth=
ing expensive. Just basic stuff, but the tools have been used to their ful=
l extent. It makes me happy to see someone with that kind of dedication an=
d initiative that has spent the time and effort to learn their tools.

I am reminded of a business seminar years ago I went to when I was trying t=
o sharpen my computer skills. The facilitator went around the room and ask=
ed us what percentage of our computer horsepower we actually used. I proud=
ly announced that I did graphics design (my own biz cards, promo flyers, tr=
i folds, etc.), my invoicing and accounts receivable, my bookkeeping, my co=
rrespondence, my contract generation, faxing, generation of reports, editin=
g of photos, and on a on. He said, "Congratulations! You are actually usi=
ng about 10% of your computer's capability!" then proceeded to show me over=
the next couple of hours just that.

Tools are the same way. Owning a super power computer doesn't meant you kn=
ow how to /really/ use it. Same with saws, etc.=20

It's the craftsman that matters.

Robert

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 8:04:09 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

> > >>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> > >>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
> > >>>> in his shop


>
> Granted, one has to factor in the price of the tools. The $100 circa mid-70's Craftsman TS wasn't
> a huge expense. Toss in the fence upgrade and the mobile base and I've got maybe $400 into
> it over the years. It has served my sufficiently for over 25 years. Those types of numbers are
> easy to recoup with just a couple of cost saving weekend projects.

+1

Many post-war, and beyond, homes and other projects were built with Craftsman tools. I have a few I use and rely on. Nothing to apologize for.

The guy shouldn't "critique" himself, negatively, no matter what he's doing or his doings. That's not a good approach to any effort. Variation: A critique should be a tool for improvement, not degradation.

If his work is good, it speaks for itself, not necessarily the tools.

Sonny

On 4/4/2018 10:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 10:24:29 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 13:24:20 GMT, sawdustmaker <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>>>> in his shop
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>>>
>>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>>>
>>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to
>>>>> pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or
>>>>> grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used
>>>>> an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>>>
>>>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how
>>>>> you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood
>>>>> with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than
>>>>> another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only
>>>>> important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with
>>>>> expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools.
>>>>> The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm -- Pretty harsh in my opinion. We looked at furniture early on and
>>> decided that I could build items that were a lot better & nicer than what
>>> we could buy in a store. I didn't go hog wild buying tools. I've only
>>> bought tools that I needed / could use / or woud make the job go easier.
>>> Yes I did upgrade from a delta to a sawstop table saw. Yes I did get a
>>> Laguna 1412 bandsaw as my first bandsaw. I decided that paying the $$
>>> would be worth it in the long run. I still have the drool factor when I
>>> go into our local tool store but haven't succumbed to it yet (for the
>>> most part). This store is a locally owned store whose prices are
>>> competitive with online stuff. -- but that's a different topic.
>>>
>>> If time is considered you're probably correct that it's a fools errand.
>>> Howeve since this is a hobby for me I don't factor it in.
>>
>> But that's precisely my point. We do this because it's a hobby. No
>> other justification is necessary.
>
> While no other justification is *necessary*, it doesn't mean that "doing
> woodworking to save money is a fool's errand".
>
> Definition: a task or activity that has no hope of success.
>
> Doing woodworking to save money has been a successful endeavor for many
> of us.
>
>
>
>
LOL, At one time I did woodworking to help maintain my sanity. No
shrink bills. :!)

On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 2:00:13 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 3/31/2018 8:04 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:47:22 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:25:23 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 3/28/2018 9:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet w=
rote:
> >>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand too=
ls
> >>>>>> in his shop
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> but always said but look at my work
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot mor=
e
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it =
is
> >>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to p=
ound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful tha=
n someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compresso=
r and nail gun?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
> >>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
> >>>>>
> >>>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose h=
ow you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with=
a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who u=
sed a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. I=
f you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say=
use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. =
Not how you got there.
> >>>>
> >>>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
> >>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I built furniture to save money... ;~) So it kinda started as a hobb=
y
> >>> to save money. I built our first couch in 1978 and most every thing
> >>> else was hand me downs. My tools quickly paid for themselves as most=
of
> >>> the furniture in our home, and my son's home, I built.
> >>
> >> You do it professionally. The weekend woodworker doesn't have time to
> >> get the use the tools as much as you do. ...and you can depreciate
> >> them. ;-)
> >=20
> > As I'm sure you know, blanket statements aren't always true. While I, t=
he typical weekend
> > woodworker, certainly don't get the *use* out of my tools as a pro, I'm=
confident is saying
> > they they have paid for themselves.
>=20
> Exactly. If your cost to build saves on the the expense of buying from=
=20
> a furniture retailer the tools will pay for them selves.
>=20
> I think the "furniture" building is probably a necessity to save enough=
=20
> money to offset the cost of the tools.

SWMBO and I slept in the first bed that I made for 35+ years. It was a=20
platform bed that has now been cut down to a twin size for the spare
bedroom.

The boys slept in the bunk beds I made until they moved out. They are now
split into singles, one here at my house and Dad slept in the other until
he passed away last weekend.

The girls slept in the L-shaped bunk beds I made until they moved out. The
beds were then given to a co-worker of SWMBO's who repainted them and gave
them to a single mom with 2 girls as a Christmas gift.=20

The girls currently sleep in beds that I made for them after they moved out=
.

That's 5-8 beds (depending on how you count them) that are still going stro=
ng
in one way or another. That's a lot of savings and doesn't include all the=
=20
other things that I've not bought from a retailer or had a contractor do=20
over the years.

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 10:03:40 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
> On 3/30/2018 1:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:41:04 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
> >> On 3/28/2018 11:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:32:17 PM UTC-4, [email protected] w=
rote:
> >>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> >>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet w=
rote:
> >>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand too=
ls
> >>>>>> in his shop
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> but always said but look at my work
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot mor=
e
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it =
is
> >>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to p=
ound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful tha=
n someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compresso=
r and nail gun?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
> >>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
> >>>>>
> >>>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose h=
ow you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with=
a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who u=
sed a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. I=
f you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say=
use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. =
Not how you got there.
> >>>>
> >>>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
> >>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
> >>>
> >>> I disagree.
> >>>
> >>> Even with the cost of my tools, I guarantee I've saved a ton of money=
by
> >>> doing woodworking.
> >>>
> >>> Right from the get-go I bought a cheap circular saw and drill and bui=
lt my
> >>> own platform bed for much cheaper than I could have bought one. SWMBO=
and I
> >>> enjoyed it for 37 years.
> >>>
> >>> With some slightly better tools later on, I built oak bunk beds for m=
y
> >>> boys that I probably couldn't have afforded to buy. That bunk bed, no=
w
> >>> split into singles, is still in use 30 years later. i.e. another 2 be=
ds that
> >>> didn't need to be bought.
> >>>
> >>> I built my deck for the cost of the materials plus a tool or two (or =
three?)
> >>> but still way cheaper than having somebody else build it.
> >>>
> >>> I built a pretty nice rustic bed for my daughter from reclaimed wood =
and
> >>> didn't have to, but did ;-) buy a single tool.
> >>>
> >>> The pair of book cases I'm building now would have to be custom made =
to not
> >>> only match each other but also fit correctly in spaces that differ by=
about
> >>> 2.5".
> >>>
> >>> The list goes on. I started doing woodworking both for the fun and fo=
r the
> >>> savings. I couldn't afford what I wanted, but I could afford the tool=
s, the
> >>> materials and the time. When you spread the cost of the tools across =
multiple
> >>> projects, the savings pay for them eventually.
> >>
> >> The factor you miss is time.
> >
> > You are making the assumption that I missed that factor. Just because I
> > didn't *mention* it doesn't mean I *missed* it.
> >
> >> To some, time is money, to others, not so
> >> much. If you make $75/hr at work, plus benefits and it takes a week o=
r
> >> two to build that bunk bed set, or chair, or dresser, plus tools,
> >> materials and work space, well, you ain't likely saving money unless
> >> bunk beds cost $3-6000 or so to buy.
> >
> > Are you implying that I took time off from my $75/hr job to build the b=
eds?
> > Regardless of my salary/hourly wage, I don't work 24/7. If I'm not usin=
g any
> > of my $75 hours to do the woodworking then my wages aren't even part of=
the
> > discussion.
>=20
> So, you did miss the time factor. =20

Nope, didn't miss it, just didn't include it.

> When the guy said doing woodwork to=20
> save money was a fools errand, he must have been taking time into=20
> account. =20

"Must have"? You do make a lot of assumptions, don't you? Why don't you ask
*him* instead of telling me what's wrong with my response.

> Of course you can "save money" if you only count the cost of=20
> material. Even then, I have seen plenty of items I can buy cheaper than=
=20
> I can buy the materials.

Sure, we've all seen crap. The stuff I've built has lasted through decades=
=20
of rough use and is still going strong. Trust me, I price what I build befo=
re
I start. It's not just the quality that has to be considered. In many cases=
,=20
just the "custom design" aspect makes purchasing the item cost prohibitive.=
=20
When a bed or a bookcase can't be bought off the shelf due to installation=
=20
issues, then you have to add in the cost of a custom design and build.=20

Besides, it's not just saving based on cost of materials. The whole point=
=20
of this discussion was whether or not DIY woodworking saved you money when
the cost the *tools* are included. I still say yes, it can.

>=20
> >> Of course if it's a hobby, and you
> >> build instead of watching Dancing with the Stars...
> >
> > It doesn't need to be a hobby to be a money saver. Building decks, mowi=
ng
> > lawns and painting kitchens (taking a lunch break from that right now) =
are
> > not on my list of hobbies. However, I do all of them to save some of th=
ose
> > $75 chunks of cash that come in from my real job.
>=20
> Yes, you do it yourself instead of watching Dancing with the Stars.=20
> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the guy=
=20
> you are disagreeing with.

Probably? I thought you said it was a "must".

Jack <[email protected]> on Fri, 30 Mar 2018 10:41:00 -0400 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>> The pair of book cases I'm building now would have to be custom made to not
>> only match each other but also fit correctly in spaces that differ by about
>> 2.5".
>>
>> The list goes on. I started doing woodworking both for the fun and for the
>> savings. I couldn't afford what I wanted, but I could afford the tools, the
>> materials and the time. When you spread the cost of the tools across multiple
>> projects, the savings pay for them eventually.
>
>The factor you miss is time. To some, time is money, to others, not so
>much. If you make $75/hr at work, plus benefits and it takes a week or
>two to build that bunk bed set, or chair, or dresser, plus tools,
>materials and work space, well, you ain't likely saving money unless
>bunk beds cost $3-6000 or so to buy. Of course if it's a hobby, and you
>build instead of watching Dancing with the Stars...

Essay in one of the Mags, was the professional stating that some
of the finest cabinetry he saw, was made by his neighbor the
accountant. Who had the time to pick each board, redo any booboos,
make sure everything was "perfect". Whereas he, the professional,
needed to sell something soon to keep the shop open. Not great, but
Friday."
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On 3/31/2018 1:56 PM, Leon wrote:

>>> It is shocking, what is considered to be good furniture, costs today.
>>
>> Depends on where you buy it.  I did alright in Amish country.
>
> I bet.  There are a few Amish stores in the Houston area, we bought 2
> arm chair and 4 regular dining room chairs, well we had them custom
> made.  CHEAP IMHO, $1550 for all 6.  I could not have built as well in
> the time we needed to have them.
>
>
>
>> Certainly not cheap but quite reasonable.  OTOH, the Stickley was a
>> tad pricey.
>
> Yeah, that was the brand I was thinking about.
>

At least a few quality furniture stores in this area have gone away.
Seems less and less people care about quality and think Ikea makes great
stuff.

End of the year we will be moving some distance and won't be taking
everything with us. It can be cheaper to buy new than pay to have it
moved, but some things like our 52 year old bedroom set and a 67 year
old dresser are going with is. Perfect condition and would be very
expensive to replace.

I happen to like nice stuff. Not always easy.

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
> in his shop
>=20
> but always said but look at my work
>=20
> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>=20
> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>=20
> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is=20
> more challenging but more gratifying

Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound in =
nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than someon=
e who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and na=
il gun?



>=20
> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used

True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how you g=
ot there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a hands=
aw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a ch=
ainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you ca=
n make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use the=
m over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not how =
you got there.

On 3/31/2018 11:03 AM, Sonny wrote:
> On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 8:04:09 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>>>>> in his shop
>
>
>>
>> Granted, one has to factor in the price of the tools. The $100 circa mid-70's Craftsman TS wasn't
>> a huge expense. Toss in the fence upgrade and the mobile base and I've got maybe $400 into
>> it over the years. It has served my sufficiently for over 25 years. Those types of numbers are
>> easy to recoup with just a couple of cost saving weekend projects.
>
> +1
>
> Many post-war, and beyond, homes and other projects were built with Craftsman tools. I have a few I use and rely on. Nothing to apologize for.


+1

>
> The guy shouldn't "critique" himself, negatively, no matter what he's doing or his doings. That's not a good approach to any effort. Variation: A critique should be a tool for improvement, not degradation.

+1
>
> If his work is good, it speaks for itself, not necessarily the tools.
>
> Sonny
>
+1

On 3/31/2018 8:04 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:47:22 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:25:23 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/28/2018 9:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>>>> in his shop
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>>>
>>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>>>
>>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>>>
>>>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I built furniture to save money... ;~) So it kinda started as a hobby
>>> to save money. I built our first couch in 1978 and most every thing
>>> else was hand me downs. My tools quickly paid for themselves as most of
>>> the furniture in our home, and my son's home, I built.
>>
>> You do it professionally. The weekend woodworker doesn't have time to
>> get the use the tools as much as you do. ...and you can depreciate
>> them. ;-)
>
> As I'm sure you know, blanket statements aren't always true. While I, the typical weekend
> woodworker, certainly don't get the *use* out of my tools as a pro, I'm confident is saying
> they they have paid for themselves.

Exactly. If your cost to build saves on the the expense of buying from
a furniture retailer the tools will pay for them selves.

I think the "furniture" building is probably a necessity to save enough
money to offset the cost of the tools.

wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>Owning a super power computer doesn't meant you know how to /really/ use
>it. Same with saws, etc.

>It's the craftsman that matters.

I would take that a step further and apply it to pretty much all skills...
bicycling, shooting, ball-sports, driving, cameras, and all tools and
machinery in general... For you gun guys, I recall Lynton McKenzie (renowned
firearms engraver) compliment Wallace Gusler's engraving work (of Gunsmith
of Williamsburg fame). McKenzie jokingly referred to Wallace's engraving
tool as a sharpened nail. Wallace is amongst the most talented people I've
ever known... as were many of the other journeyman tradesmen at
Williamsburg.

Google up the images for both of those guys... it's amazing stuff. I just
did so as I hadn't done it in a while... I was amused to see some of my
handmade screws come up on the Gusler listing... they were on Doug Stowe's
site. (http://wisdomofhands.blogspot.com/2010/12/making-screws.html) Crazy
how Google works! LOL

Far too often I've seen folks who were pretty much clueless in regards to
using what they owned regardless of the cost.

Of course there really are some tools out there that are less than useless
in my book... Some of the Harbor Freight, Black and Decker, and Craftsman
power tools I've encountered come to mind. I don't own any of that stuff but
I've used other's tools while helping them in the past. I try to bring my
own tools now even if I know they own tools... ;~)

On 4/5/2018 10:30 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 4/5/2018 9:21 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/4/2018 10:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 10:24:29 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 13:24:20 GMT, sawdustmaker <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand
>>>>>>>> tools
>>>>>>>> in his shop
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and
>>>>>>>> it is
>>>>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is it more gratifying?  I suppose someone could use a rock to
>>>>>>> pound in nails to build a house.  Would he be more gratified or
>>>>>>> grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer?  Or someone who
>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>> an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True on this.  The end product, result is what counts.  I suppose
>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>> you got there matters too.  Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood
>>>>>>> with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than
>>>>>>> another who used a chainsaw.  But usually the end result is the only
>>>>>>> important thing.  If you can make a better cabinet or table with
>>>>>>> expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude
>>>>>>> tools.
>>>>>>> The end result is what matters.  Not how you got there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I disagree.  For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>>>>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmm -- Pretty harsh in my opinion. We looked at furniture early on and
>>>>> decided that I could build items that were a lot better & nicer
>>>>> than what
>>>>> we could buy in a store. I didn't go hog wild buying tools. I've only
>>>>> bought tools that I needed / could use / or  woud make the job go
>>>>> easier.
>>>>> Yes I did upgrade from a delta to a sawstop table saw. Yes I did get a
>>>>> Laguna 1412 bandsaw as my first bandsaw. I decided that paying the $$
>>>>> would be worth it in the long run. I still have the drool factor
>>>>> when I
>>>>> go into our local tool store but haven't succumbed to it yet (for the
>>>>> most part). This store is a locally owned store whose prices are
>>>>> competitive with online stuff. -- but that's a different topic.
>>>>>
>>>>> If time is considered you're probably correct that it's a fools
>>>>> errand.
>>>>> Howeve since this is a hobby for me I don't factor it in.
>>>>
>>>> But that's precisely my point.  We do this because it's a hobby.  No
>>>> other justification is necessary.
>>>
>>> While no other justification is *necessary*, it doesn't mean that "doing
>>> woodworking to save money is a fool's errand".
>>>
>>> Definition: a task or activity that has no hope of success.
>>>
>>> Doing woodworking to save money has been a successful endeavor for many
>>> of us.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> LOL, At one time I did woodworking to help maintain my sanity.  No
>> shrink bills.  :!)
>
>
> So?  How'd that work out after you got paying client?  LOL!

That was when I was in the automotive world running the service
department for an Olds dealer in Houston.

On 4/1/2018 9:54 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 4/1/2018 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
> ...
>
>> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the
>> guy you are disagreeing with.
>
> The guy he's disagreeing with tends to disagree as a matter of course.
>
> --
>
+1

On 4/5/2018 9:21 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/4/2018 10:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 10:24:29 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 13:24:20 GMT, sawdustmaker <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [email protected] wrote in
>>>> news:[email protected]:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>>>>> in his shop
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is it more gratifying?  I suppose someone could use a rock to
>>>>>> pound in nails to build a house.  Would he be more gratified or
>>>>>> grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer?  Or someone who
>>>>>> used
>>>>>> an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True on this.  The end product, result is what counts.  I suppose how
>>>>>> you got there matters too.  Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood
>>>>>> with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than
>>>>>> another who used a chainsaw.  But usually the end result is the only
>>>>>> important thing.  If you can make a better cabinet or table with
>>>>>> expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools.
>>>>>> The end result is what matters.  Not how you got there.
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree.  For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>>>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmm -- Pretty harsh in my opinion. We looked at furniture early on and
>>>> decided that I could build items that were a lot better & nicer than
>>>> what
>>>> we could buy in a store. I didn't go hog wild buying tools. I've only
>>>> bought tools that I needed / could use / or  woud make the job go
>>>> easier.
>>>> Yes I did upgrade from a delta to a sawstop table saw. Yes I did get a
>>>> Laguna 1412 bandsaw as my first bandsaw. I decided that paying the $$
>>>> would be worth it in the long run. I still have the drool factor when I
>>>> go into our local tool store but haven't succumbed to it yet (for the
>>>> most part). This store is a locally owned store whose prices are
>>>> competitive with online stuff. -- but that's a different topic.
>>>>
>>>> If time is considered you're probably correct that it's a fools errand.
>>>> Howeve since this is a hobby for me I don't factor it in.
>>>
>>> But that's precisely my point.  We do this because it's a hobby.  No
>>> other justification is necessary.
>>
>> While no other justification is *necessary*, it doesn't mean that "doing
>> woodworking to save money is a fool's errand".
>>
>> Definition: a task or activity that has no hope of success.
>>
>> Doing woodworking to save money has been a successful endeavor for many
>> of us.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> LOL, At one time I did woodworking to help maintain my sanity.  No
> shrink bills.  :!)


So? How'd that work out after you got paying client? LOL!

On 3/28/2018 9:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>> in his shop
>>>
>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>
>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>
>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>
>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>
>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and nail gun?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>
>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>
> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>


I built furniture to save money... ;~) So it kinda started as a hobby
to save money. I built our first couch in 1978 and most every thing
else was hand me downs. My tools quickly paid for themselves as most of
the furniture in our home, and my son's home, I built.

It is shocking, what is considered to be good furniture, costs today.
One piece in our home easily paid for all of my Festool tools. Another
easily paid for my SawStop. And we have 11 large pieces of furniture,
that I built, in our home. The smallest is a 7 drawer dresser that I
built in 1980. And I have sold 90 percent of what I have built. ;~)

"Electric Comet" wrote in message news:[email protected]...

>knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>in his shop

>but always said but look at my work

>his stuff sold well and not cheap

>most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more

>for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>more challenging but more gratifying

>if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>does not matter how you did it or what tools were used

From my experience working in the craft department at Colonial Williamsburg
I had the realizations that much of the "world" was built without
electricity and that "hand made" <> "crude." In comparison, I think we see
quite a bit of crude stuff today that is the result of the limitations of
power tools and their user's inability to perform tasks without them! I
also recall my father telling the story about when he built our home nearly
60 years ago. He had the house weathered in and went to the bank for a
mortgage to pay for the materials. The bank wanted plans... when he gave
them the plans they said he couldn't build a house for that amount of money.
His response was "come up and look at it." When the banker saw it he
approved the mortgage and told my father that a lot of people build things
that are worth less than the materials cost! I've never forgotten that
sentiment... BTW, my parents still live in that house... the one my father
built on weekends and evenings while in his mid-20s. He's seen a lot as a
kid as his father, by then deceased, was a contractor who hired carpenters,
etc.

[email protected] wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet
>>wrote:
>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>> in his shop
>>>
>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>
>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>
>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>
>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>
>>Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to
>>pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or
>>grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used
>>an air compressor and nail gun?
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>
>>True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how
>>you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood
>>with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than
>>another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only
>>important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with
>>expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools.
>>The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>
> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>

Hmm -- Pretty harsh in my opinion. We looked at furniture early on and
decided that I could build items that were a lot better & nicer than what
we could buy in a store. I didn't go hog wild buying tools. I've only
bought tools that I needed / could use / or woud make the job go easier.
Yes I did upgrade from a delta to a sawstop table saw. Yes I did get a
Laguna 1412 bandsaw as my first bandsaw. I decided that paying the $$
would be worth it in the long run. I still have the drool factor when I
go into our local tool store but haven't succumbed to it yet (for the
most part). This store is a locally owned store whose prices are
competitive with online stuff. -- but that's a different topic.

If time is considered you're probably correct that it's a fools errand.
Howeve since this is a hobby for me I don't factor it in.

If built almost all of the case goods in our house now and I'm starting
to fill our sons house. No, I'm not charging him either - I may ask them
to pay for wood, but haven't yet. So I'm probably a big dumb fool now.
But who cares - it's a hobby for me and I enjoy it. Another plus is that
my wife has loked everythin I build and has given me a blank check for
tools. But I don't just go and buy everything that I think I want.

Your skill is just, if not more important, than the tools you use. A good
tool in the hands of a crappy woodworker won't make him a good one. Only
desire, practice, and time will. A good tool might make things easier and
faster. I could get out router planes and route all dados and edges by
hand on a piece. Doing it with an electric router and a router table
makes it faster. Only the woodworker making the piece can decide which
they want to do. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:47:00 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:

>knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>in his shop
>
>but always said but look at my work
>
>his stuff sold well and not cheap
>
>most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>
>for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>more challenging but more gratifying
>
>if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>

That applies in all creative fields. My hobby is writing and I've
published two ebooks in the past year or so, with one of them doing OK
for something from an unknown author. If the readers liked it enough
to think they got their $2.99 worth and to recommend it to other
people, then the background of the writing being done on a 12 year old
laptop using 15 year old word processing software didn't matter - only
the finished product.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LVU5ILA

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:47:22 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:25:23 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>=20
> >On 3/28/2018 9:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> >> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>=20
> >>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wro=
te:
> >>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
> >>>> in his shop
> >>>>
> >>>> but always said but look at my work
> >>>>
> >>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
> >>>>
> >>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
> >>>>
> >>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
> >>>> more challenging but more gratifying
> >>>
> >>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pou=
nd in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than =
someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor =
and nail gun?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
> >>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
> >>>
> >>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how=
you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a=
handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who use=
d a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If =
you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say u=
se them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. No=
t how you got there.
> >>=20
> >> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
> >> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
> >>=20
> >
> >
> >I built furniture to save money... ;~) So it kinda started as a hobby=
=20
> >to save money. I built our first couch in 1978 and most every thing=20
> >else was hand me downs. My tools quickly paid for themselves as most of=
=20
> >the furniture in our home, and my son's home, I built.
>=20
> You do it professionally. The weekend woodworker doesn't have time to
> get the use the tools as much as you do. ...and you can depreciate
> them. ;-)

As I'm sure you know, blanket statements aren't always true. While I, the t=
ypical weekend
woodworker, certainly don't get the *use* out of my tools as a pro, I'm con=
fident is saying=20
they they have paid for themselves.

Granted, one has to factor in the price of the tools. The $100 circa mid-70=
's Craftsman TS wasn't=20
a huge expense. Toss in the fence upgrade and the mobile base and I've got =
maybe $400 into
it over the years. It has served my sufficiently for over 25 years. Those t=
ypes of numbers are=20
easy to recoup with just a couple of cost saving weekend projects.=20

>=20
> >It is shocking, what is considered to be good furniture, costs today.=20
>=20
> Depends on where you buy it. I did alright in Amish country.
> Certainly not cheap but quite reasonable. OTOH, the Stickley was a
> tad pricey.
>=20
> >One piece in our home easily paid for all of my Festool tools. Another=
=20
> >easily paid for my SawStop. And we have 11 large pieces of furniture,=
=20
> >that I built, in our home. The smallest is a 7 drawer dresser that I=20
> >built in 1980. And I have sold 90 percent of what I have built. ;~)

On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 10:24:29 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 13:24:20 GMT, sawdustmaker <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >[email protected] wrote in
> >news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet
> >>>wrote:
> >>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
> >>>> in his shop
> >>>>
> >>>> but always said but look at my work
> >>>>
> >>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
> >>>>
> >>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
> >>>>
> >>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
> >>>> more challenging but more gratifying
> >>>
> >>>Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to
> >>>pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or
> >>>grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used
> >>>an air compressor and nail gun?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
> >>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
> >>>
> >>>True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how
> >>>you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood
> >>>with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than
> >>>another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only
> >>>important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with
> >>>expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools.
> >>>The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
> >>
> >> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
> >> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
> >>
> >
> >Hmm -- Pretty harsh in my opinion. We looked at furniture early on and
> >decided that I could build items that were a lot better & nicer than what
> >we could buy in a store. I didn't go hog wild buying tools. I've only
> >bought tools that I needed / could use / or woud make the job go easier.
> >Yes I did upgrade from a delta to a sawstop table saw. Yes I did get a
> >Laguna 1412 bandsaw as my first bandsaw. I decided that paying the $$
> >would be worth it in the long run. I still have the drool factor when I
> >go into our local tool store but haven't succumbed to it yet (for the
> >most part). This store is a locally owned store whose prices are
> >competitive with online stuff. -- but that's a different topic.
> >
> >If time is considered you're probably correct that it's a fools errand.
> >Howeve since this is a hobby for me I don't factor it in.
>
> But that's precisely my point. We do this because it's a hobby. No
> other justification is necessary.

While no other justification is *necessary*, it doesn't mean that "doing
woodworking to save money is a fool's errand".

Definition: a task or activity that has no hope of success.

Doing woodworking to save money has been a successful endeavor for many
of us.

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Wed, 28 Mar 2018 17:21:25 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>
>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>
>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>
>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>
>I started out that way but when I began to sell 90% of my work, and not
>cheap either, I found that better tools afforded me the ability to build
>faster quality products. That put a bigger smile on my face than
>working with lesser quality tools.

I used to make small wooden boxes. All by hand as my power tools
were limited to a drill and circ saw. Lots of fun, but as I would say
"I can see why power tools were invented."
I kept track, from the time I selected the boards to "done" took
about 8 hours. "Even if I just charge minimum wage, you can't afford
this."

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:25:23 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
wrote:

>On 3/28/2018 9:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>> in his shop
>>>>
>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>
>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>
>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>
>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>
>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>
>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>>
>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>>
>
>
>I built furniture to save money... ;~) So it kinda started as a hobby
>to save money. I built our first couch in 1978 and most every thing
>else was hand me downs. My tools quickly paid for themselves as most of
>the furniture in our home, and my son's home, I built.

You do it professionally. The weekend woodworker doesn't have time to
get the use the tools as much as you do. ...and you can depreciate
them. ;-)

>It is shocking, what is considered to be good furniture, costs today.

Depends on where you buy it. I did alright in Amish country.
Certainly not cheap but quite reasonable. OTOH, the Stickley was a
tad pricey.

>One piece in our home easily paid for all of my Festool tools. Another
>easily paid for my SawStop. And we have 11 large pieces of furniture,
>that I built, in our home. The smallest is a 7 drawer dresser that I
>built in 1980. And I have sold 90 percent of what I have built. ;~)

On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 09:00:29 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 06:05:26 +0000 (UTC)
>Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:
>
>> some really insane roofs on those things
>
>some of the attics have a lot of usable space that is unused
>i mean a lot

The roof of my previous house had a 15:12 pitch and there was around
700ft^2 unused space, so I made the space into my shop (no basement).

>so inefficient but i guess it is all they know how to do so they keep
>slapping them up

What I don't understand is why so many people care how others live
their lives.

On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 3:53:07 PM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
> On 4/1/2018 12:58 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 10:03:40 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
> >> On 3/30/2018 1:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:41:04 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
> >>>> On 3/28/2018 11:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:32:17 PM UTC-4, [email protected]=
wrote:
> >>>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]=
m"
> >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet=
wrote:
> >>>>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand t=
ools
> >>>>>>>> in his shop
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> but always said but look at my work
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot m=
ore
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and i=
t is
> >>>>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to=
pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful t=
han someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compres=
sor and nail gun?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
> >>>>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose=
how you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood wi=
th a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who=
used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. =
If you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd s=
ay use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters.=
Not how you got there.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got ther=
e.
> >>>>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I disagree.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Even with the cost of my tools, I guarantee I've saved a ton of mon=
ey by
> >>>>> doing woodworking.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Right from the get-go I bought a cheap circular saw and drill and b=
uilt my
> >>>>> own platform bed for much cheaper than I could have bought one. SWM=
BO and I
> >>>>> enjoyed it for 37 years.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> With some slightly better tools later on, I built oak bunk beds for=
my
> >>>>> boys that I probably couldn't have afforded to buy. That bunk bed, =
now
> >>>>> split into singles, is still in use 30 years later. i.e. another 2 =
beds that
> >>>>> didn't need to be bought.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I built my deck for the cost of the materials plus a tool or two (o=
r three?)
> >>>>> but still way cheaper than having somebody else build it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I built a pretty nice rustic bed for my daughter from reclaimed woo=
d and
> >>>>> didn't have to, but did ;-) buy a single tool.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The pair of book cases I'm building now would have to be custom mad=
e to not
> >>>>> only match each other but also fit correctly in spaces that differ =
by about
> >>>>> 2.5".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The list goes on. I started doing woodworking both for the fun and =
for the
> >>>>> savings. I couldn't afford what I wanted, but I could afford the to=
ols, the
> >>>>> materials and the time. When you spread the cost of the tools acros=
s multiple
> >>>>> projects, the savings pay for them eventually.
> >>>>
> >>>> The factor you miss is time.
> >>>
> >>> You are making the assumption that I missed that factor. Just because=
I
> >>> didn't *mention* it doesn't mean I *missed* it.
> >>>
> >>>> To some, time is money, to others, not so
> >>>> much. If you make $75/hr at work, plus benefits and it takes a week=
or
> >>>> two to build that bunk bed set, or chair, or dresser, plus tools,
> >>>> materials and work space, well, you ain't likely saving money unless
> >>>> bunk beds cost $3-6000 or so to buy.
> >>>
> >>> Are you implying that I took time off from my $75/hr job to build the=
beds?
> >>> Regardless of my salary/hourly wage, I don't work 24/7. If I'm not us=
ing any
> >>> of my $75 hours to do the woodworking then my wages aren't even part =
of the
> >>> discussion.
> >>
> >> So, you did miss the time factor.
> >
> > Nope, didn't miss it, just didn't include it.
> >
> >> When the guy said doing woodwork to
> >> save money was a fools errand, he must have been taking time into
> >> account.
> >
> > "Must have"? You do make a lot of assumptions, don't you? Why don't you=
ask
> > *him* instead of telling me what's wrong with my response.
>=20
> I make the assumption because I agree with you, and figure even Krw=20
> would not make the statement unless he was including time as a factor.=20
> I wasn't talking to Keith so I didn't ask him, in fact, only saw the=20
> statement in your post, had to go back and research who actually made=20
> the statement you disagreed with because Leon and dpb said he tends to=20
> disagree with everyone. I thought it was someone else who rarely posts=
=20
> here, russleseaton specifically, so I was going to disagree with them.=20
> Your quoted text made it look like russle said it, not keith.
>=20
> >> Of course you can "save money" if you only count the cost of
> >> material. Even then, I have seen plenty of items I can buy cheaper th=
an
> >> I can buy the materials.
> >
> > Sure, we've all seen crap. The stuff I've built has lasted through deca=
des
> > of rough use and is still going strong. Trust me, I price what I build =
before
> > I start. It's not just the quality that has to be considered. In many c=
ases,
> > just the "custom design" aspect makes purchasing the item cost prohibit=
ive.
> > When a bed or a bookcase can't be bought off the shelf due to installat=
ion
> > issues, then you have to add in the cost of a custom design and build.
> >
> > Besides, it's not just saving based on cost of materials. The whole poi=
nt
> > of this discussion was whether or not DIY woodworking saved you money w=
hen
> > the cost the *tools* are included. I still say yes, it can.
> >
> >>
> >>>> Of course if it's a hobby, and you
> >>>> build instead of watching Dancing with the Stars...
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't need to be a hobby to be a money saver. Building decks, mo=
wing
> >>> lawns and painting kitchens (taking a lunch break from that right now=
) are
> >>> not on my list of hobbies. However, I do all of them to save some of =
those
> >>> $75 chunks of cash that come in from my real job.
> >>
> >> Yes, you do it yourself instead of watching Dancing with the Stars.
> >> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the g=
uy
> >> you are disagreeing with.
> >
> > Probably? I thought you said it was a "must".
>=20
> "Must" as in reasonably expected, not required, because it's the only=20
> way I can see anyone, even Keith, could make such a claim. He replies=20
> to most everything, so he can jump in anytime he wants, and clarify his=
=20
> statement.
>=20
> Myself, I don't build to save money, I build because I can, I like to=20
> and because I can build specifically to my specs. Money is seldom a=20
> factor to me, not now, not ever. Actually because I can is not totally=
=20
> true. Once I know I can build something, repeating it becomes more of a=
=20
> chore, and doing it is more for someone else's satisfaction, like a wife=
=20
> or friend. I enjoy using tools though, always tools, mostly electric one=
s.
>=20

OK, I guess we are more less on the same page, although one might say that =
you=20
really are building to save money, especially as it relates to the "my spec=
s"
criteria. That was one of my main points.=20

SWMBO wanted twin bookcases to flank a window in our kitchen. I was plannin=
g=20
on building them, although not necessarily to save money, but as it turned =
out,
I didn't have much choice. It turns out the window isn't centered so nothin=
g=20
off the shelf would have worked. They would have had to have been custom ma=
de,=20
which would have been cost prohibitive. DIY was the only way to save money.

I was in the same situation years ago when I built a set of bunk beds for m=
y
girls. Small room, partially slanted ceiling. Standard height bunk beds
wouldn't have worked. Options: Expensive custom made beds or DIY to save th=
at
expense.

Anyway, we're good.

On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:41:04 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
> On 3/28/2018 11:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:32:17 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wro=
te:
> >> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wro=
te:
> >>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
> >>>> in his shop
> >>>>
> >>>> but always said but look at my work
> >>>>
> >>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
> >>>>
> >>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
> >>>>
> >>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
> >>>> more challenging but more gratifying
> >>>
> >>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pou=
nd in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than =
someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor =
and nail gun?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
> >>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
> >>>
> >>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how=
you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a=
handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who use=
d a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If =
you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say u=
se them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. No=
t how you got there.
> >>
> >> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
> >> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
> >
> > I disagree.
> >
> > Even with the cost of my tools, I guarantee I've saved a ton of money b=
y
> > doing woodworking.
> >
> > Right from the get-go I bought a cheap circular saw and drill and built=
my
> > own platform bed for much cheaper than I could have bought one. SWMBO a=
nd I
> > enjoyed it for 37 years.
> >
> > With some slightly better tools later on, I built oak bunk beds for my
> > boys that I probably couldn't have afforded to buy. That bunk bed, now
> > split into singles, is still in use 30 years later. i.e. another 2 beds=
that
> > didn't need to be bought.
> >
> > I built my deck for the cost of the materials plus a tool or two (or th=
ree?)
> > but still way cheaper than having somebody else build it.
> >
> > I built a pretty nice rustic bed for my daughter from reclaimed wood an=
d
> > didn't have to, but did ;-) buy a single tool.
> >
> > The pair of book cases I'm building now would have to be custom made to=
not
> > only match each other but also fit correctly in spaces that differ by a=
bout
> > 2.5".
> >
> > The list goes on. I started doing woodworking both for the fun and for =
the
> > savings. I couldn't afford what I wanted, but I could afford the tools,=
the
> > materials and the time. When you spread the cost of the tools across mu=
ltiple
> > projects, the savings pay for them eventually.
>=20
> The factor you miss is time. =20

You are making the assumption that I missed that factor. Just because I=20
didn't *mention* it doesn't mean I *missed* it.

> To some, time is money, to others, not so=20
> much. If you make $75/hr at work, plus benefits and it takes a week or=
=20
> two to build that bunk bed set, or chair, or dresser, plus tools,=20
> materials and work space, well, you ain't likely saving money unless=20
> bunk beds cost $3-6000 or so to buy. =20

Are you implying that I took time off from my $75/hr job to build the beds?
Regardless of my salary/hourly wage, I don't work 24/7. If I'm not using an=
y
of my $75 hours to do the woodworking then my wages aren't even part of the=
=20
discussion.

> Of course if it's a hobby, and you=20
> build instead of watching Dancing with the Stars...

It doesn't need to be a hobby to be a money saver. Building decks, mowing
lawns and painting kitchens (taking a lunch break from that right now) are=
=20
not on my list of hobbies. However, I do all of them to save some of those=
=20
$75 chunks of cash that come in from my real job.

In rec.woodworking,
John Grossbohlin <[email protected]> wrote:
> I also recall my father telling the story about when he built our home
> nearly 60 years ago. He had the house weathered in and went to the
> bank for a mortgage to pay for the materials. The bank wanted plans...
> when he gave them the plans they said he couldn't build a house for
> that amount of money. His response was "come up and look at it." When
> the banker saw it he approved the mortgage and told my father that a
> lot of people build things that are worth less than the materials
> cost! I've never forgotten that sentiment... BTW, my parents still
> live in that house... the one my father built on weekends and evenings
> while in his mid-20s. He's seen a lot as a kid as his father, by then
> deceased, was a contractor who hired carpenters, etc.

Things built worth less than the materials reminds me of the buildings I
read about on McMansion Hell (well, the McMansions at least, couple of
recent posts divert from the formula).

http://mcmansionhell.com/

Elijah
------
some really insane roofs on those things

On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 20:10:37 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Tuesday, April 3, 2018 at 10:24:29 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 13:24:20 GMT, sawdustmaker <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] wrote in
>> >news:[email protected]:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet
>> >>>wrote:
>> >>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>> >>>> in his shop
>> >>>>
>> >>>> but always said but look at my work
>> >>>>
>> >>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>> >>>>
>> >>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>> >>>>
>> >>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>> >>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>> >>>
>> >>>Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to
>> >>>pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or
>> >>>grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used
>> >>>an air compressor and nail gun?
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>> >>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>> >>>
>> >>>True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how
>> >>>you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood
>> >>>with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than
>> >>>another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only
>> >>>important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with
>> >>>expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools.
>> >>>The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>> >>
>> >> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>> >> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Hmm -- Pretty harsh in my opinion. We looked at furniture early on and
>> >decided that I could build items that were a lot better & nicer than what
>> >we could buy in a store. I didn't go hog wild buying tools. I've only
>> >bought tools that I needed / could use / or woud make the job go easier.
>> >Yes I did upgrade from a delta to a sawstop table saw. Yes I did get a
>> >Laguna 1412 bandsaw as my first bandsaw. I decided that paying the $$
>> >would be worth it in the long run. I still have the drool factor when I
>> >go into our local tool store but haven't succumbed to it yet (for the
>> >most part). This store is a locally owned store whose prices are
>> >competitive with online stuff. -- but that's a different topic.
>> >
>> >If time is considered you're probably correct that it's a fools errand.
>> >Howeve since this is a hobby for me I don't factor it in.
>>
>> But that's precisely my point. We do this because it's a hobby. No
>> other justification is necessary.
>
>While no other justification is *necessary*, it doesn't mean that "doing
>woodworking to save money is a fool's errand".

That's not what I meant. We've been over this before but if you'd
like to continue, please keep droning on...
>
>Definition: a task or activity that has no hope of success.
>
>Doing woodworking to save money has been a successful endeavor for many
>of us.
>
>
>

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 17:23:57 -0500, ads wrote:

>On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:47:00 -0700, Electric Comet
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>in his shop
>>
>>but always said but look at my work
>>
>>his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>
>>most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>
>>for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>more challenging but more gratifying
>>
>>if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>
>
>That applies in all creative fields. My hobby is writing and I've
>published two ebooks in the past year or so, with one of them doing OK
>for something from an unknown author. If the readers liked it enough
>to think they got their $2.99 worth and to recommend it to other
>people, then the background of the writing being done on a 12 year old
>laptop using 15 year old word processing software didn't matter - only
>the finished product.
>
>
>https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LVU5ILA

Nice! I read quite a few such books (often Amazon will offer the
first in a series free, as a hook). I think it's an amazing use of
technology. It really takes the power out of the dead-tree
publisher's hands and moves it back closer to creator, while making it
cheaper for the consumer, too. Win-win.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:12:50 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 6:21:40 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/28/2018 5:23 PM, ads wrote:
>> > On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:47:00 -0700, Electric Comet
>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>> >> in his shop
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> >>
>> >> but always said but look at my work
>> >>
>> >> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>> >>
>> >> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>> >>
>> >> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>> >> more challenging but more gratifying
>>
>> I started out that way but when I began to sell 90% of my work, and not
>> cheap either, I found that better tools afforded me the ability to build
>> faster quality products. That put a bigger smile on my face than
>> working with lesser quality tools.
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>> >> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>> >>
>>
>> Well, that is, until you work with better quality tools. I have worked
>> with both, I prefer better tools.
>
>That applies to both women and tools. ;-)

Both are expensive. I wish I'd learned the lesson with tools as
quickly as I did with women. I've had <can't count> drills, saws,
routers but the same SWMBO still works as designed, after 47 years.
;-)

On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 15:08:48 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 4/1/2018 12:39 PM, Leon wrote:
>> On 4/1/2018 9:54 AM, dpb wrote:
>>> On 4/1/2018 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the
>>>> guy you are disagreeing with.
>>>
>>> The guy he's disagreeing with tends to disagree as a matter of course.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>> +1
>
>True, krw does tend to disagree as a matter of course, just as most
>everyone here, other than the electric comet, who seldom disagrees, so
>he gets trashed for lack of punctuation.

No, when I disagree I state my disagreement. Unlike others, I rarely
write anything to hear myself talk.
>
>Myself, I agreed with Keith if you include time as a factor, and I
>agreed with the Derby dude if you exclude time as a factor. The rest of
>you are just pissing in the wind...

No, I'm not including the time factor. The average person will never
pay off tools by making furniture. If he's buying tools just to save
money, it'll never work.

On Tue, 03 Apr 2018 13:24:20 GMT, sawdustmaker <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[email protected] wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet
>>>wrote:
>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>> in his shop
>>>>
>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>
>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>
>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>
>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>
>>>Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to
>>>pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or
>>>grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used
>>>an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>
>>>True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how
>>>you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood
>>>with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than
>>>another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only
>>>important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with
>>>expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools.
>>>The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>>
>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>>
>
>Hmm -- Pretty harsh in my opinion. We looked at furniture early on and
>decided that I could build items that were a lot better & nicer than what
>we could buy in a store. I didn't go hog wild buying tools. I've only
>bought tools that I needed / could use / or woud make the job go easier.
>Yes I did upgrade from a delta to a sawstop table saw. Yes I did get a
>Laguna 1412 bandsaw as my first bandsaw. I decided that paying the $$
>would be worth it in the long run. I still have the drool factor when I
>go into our local tool store but haven't succumbed to it yet (for the
>most part). This store is a locally owned store whose prices are
>competitive with online stuff. -- but that's a different topic.
>
>If time is considered you're probably correct that it's a fools errand.
>Howeve since this is a hobby for me I don't factor it in.

But that's precisely my point. We do this because it's a hobby. No
other justification is necessary.

>If built almost all of the case goods in our house now and I'm starting
>to fill our sons house. No, I'm not charging him either - I may ask them
>to pay for wood, but haven't yet. So I'm probably a big dumb fool now.
>But who cares - it's a hobby for me and I enjoy it. Another plus is that
>my wife has loked everythin I build and has given me a blank check for
>tools. But I don't just go and buy everything that I think I want.
>
>Your skill is just, if not more important, than the tools you use. A good
>tool in the hands of a crappy woodworker won't make him a good one. Only
>desire, practice, and time will. A good tool might make things easier and
>faster. I could get out router planes and route all dados and edges by
>hand on a piece. Doing it with an electric router and a router table
>makes it faster. Only the woodworker making the piece can decide which
>they want to do. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.

That's certainly true. An expert can do wonders with just a chisel,
hand saw, and a plane. However, the expert doesn't use an HF chisel,
either. I'll never be at that level (not enough time or patience) but
power tools are a lot of fun and I can see the results, more or less
immediately.

On Thu, 5 Apr 2018 12:48:55 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>With almost 45 years of doing woodwork in all phases professionally
>(including sweeping the jobs), I can't stand tool snobbery. It is usually
>propagated by the more financially well to do that think the tools
>make the project or job.
>

I never considered it "tool snobbery" even though the "financially well
off" are usually the ones to have a large budget for tools. Like owning
a Felder Exact 63 Planer and a 37" dual drum sander for hobby
projects... It's their money and a Bass Boat didn't interest them.

How is that different from "minimalist snobbery" - I built all the
cabinetry in my house only using a froe, spoke shave, hand plane, pocket
knife, handsaw, and a framing hammer. All of which I picked up at a
garage sale in 1957 for $12.00 ?


>More often than not, tools these days are engineered for ease of use
>and to make up for the extreme lack of hand skills most of today's
>craftsmen and professionals have.
>
As opposed to hard to use...? That is bad - How?

>There is a jig, a guide, a template, a machine and all sorts of other
>apparatus out there to day to make up for talent and training.
>
Unless you are a gifted Wood Wizard doing one-off, bespoke, works of art
that is bad how?

The tool snob knocks out a dozen little box jointed boxes using his vast
array of tools - in this case the Incra I-Box jig - while you are
marking, hand cutting, and chiseling one.

Then, when you finish, all 13 are compared. If you are very skilled, and
took your time, your box matches the quality of the 12 done with the
jig. Who gets the most bragging rights, - if that is important - and
why?

>Lack of talent and training leads to stifling the experimentation that
>leads to developing confidence in one's ability.
>
--

Jerry O.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:47:00 -0700, Electric Comet
<[email protected]> wrote:

>knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>in his shop
>
>but always said but look at my work
>
>his stuff sold well and not cheap
>
>most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>
>for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>more challenging but more gratifying
>
>if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>does not matter how you did it or what tools were used

Sure but it doesn't bring me happiness when the damned saw won't cut
in a straight line. I refuse to be aggravated by my hobby. I buy the
best I can afford (which has changed over the years) and only cry
once.

On 3/28/2018 11:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:32:17 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>> in his shop
>>>>
>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>
>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>
>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>
>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>
>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>
>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>>
>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>
> I disagree.
>
> Even with the cost of my tools, I guarantee I've saved a ton of money by
> doing woodworking.
>
> Right from the get-go I bought a cheap circular saw and drill and built my
> own platform bed for much cheaper than I could have bought one. SWMBO and I
> enjoyed it for 37 years.
>
> With some slightly better tools later on, I built oak bunk beds for my
> boys that I probably couldn't have afforded to buy. That bunk bed, now
> split into singles, is still in use 30 years later. i.e. another 2 beds that
> didn't need to be bought.
>
> I built my deck for the cost of the materials plus a tool or two (or three?)
> but still way cheaper than having somebody else build it.
>
> I built a pretty nice rustic bed for my daughter from reclaimed wood and
> didn't have to, but did ;-) buy a single tool.
>
> The pair of book cases I'm building now would have to be custom made to not
> only match each other but also fit correctly in spaces that differ by about
> 2.5".
>
> The list goes on. I started doing woodworking both for the fun and for the
> savings. I couldn't afford what I wanted, but I could afford the tools, the
> materials and the time. When you spread the cost of the tools across multiple
> projects, the savings pay for them eventually.

The factor you miss is time. To some, time is money, to others, not so
much. If you make $75/hr at work, plus benefits and it takes a week or
two to build that bunk bed set, or chair, or dresser, plus tools,
materials and work space, well, you ain't likely saving money unless
bunk beds cost $3-6000 or so to buy. Of course if it's a hobby, and you
build instead of watching Dancing with the Stars...


--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 [email protected] wrote:

> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to
> pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or
> grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who
> used an air compressor and nail gun?

that would depend on the someone

i will say using a air nailer is fun and certainly gratifying but when i
use a hammer and nails that is good too

if the rock was the only thing around to drive nails then i might find it
gratifying when i was done

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 14:48:54 [email protected] wrote:

> It is all about technique. Some have it, and some don't.

they call it genetic memory now i think

knew a guy that needed to stay away from tools and machines
he would strip threads out and wrench bolt heads off in a way that
seemed intentional


> furniture came from. Got a tour of a factory, and was surprised to
> discover that these intricately turned and carved tales and such,
> were done with a very small set of tools. And those turned table
> legs? Shaped with a hand plane and carved to final.

on archive.org there are some old woodworking books and one of
them describes how to make a spiral baluster or table leg

no machines required

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 16:35:06 [email protected] wrote:

> He had the house weathered in and went to the bank for a mortgage to
> pay for the materials. The bank wanted plans... when he gave them the
> plans they said he couldn't build a house for that amount of money.
> His response was "come up and look at it." When the banker saw it he
> approved the mortgage and told my father that a lot of people build
> things that are worth less than the materials cost! I've never
> forgotten that sentiment... BTW, my parents still live in that

yes doing less with more seems more prevalent today and it is also
encouraged to the point where many take to the acquisition of the tools
more than they take to the wood and making something

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 17:23:57 ads wrote:

> That applies in all creative fields. My hobby is writing and I've
> published two ebooks in the past year or so, with one of them doing OK
> for something from an unknown author. If the readers liked it enough
> to think they got their $2.99 worth and to recommend it to other
> people, then the background of the writing being done on a 12 year old
> laptop using 15 year old word processing software didn't matter - only

been a while since seeing word processing mentioned

in some fields it is a requirement

there is a guy that makes big money weaving custom fabric on a very old
loom

he rode out the wave of automation and mass production and kept his
niche alive

now he cannot weave fast enough to meet demand but he weaves fast
enough to meet his demands

there are many such stories

On 3/30/2018 1:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:41:04 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
>> On 3/28/2018 11:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:32:17 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>>>> in his shop
>>>>>>
>>>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>>>
>>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>>>
>>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>>>
>>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>>>
>>>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>>>>
>>>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>>>
>>> I disagree.
>>>
>>> Even with the cost of my tools, I guarantee I've saved a ton of money by
>>> doing woodworking.
>>>
>>> Right from the get-go I bought a cheap circular saw and drill and built my
>>> own platform bed for much cheaper than I could have bought one. SWMBO and I
>>> enjoyed it for 37 years.
>>>
>>> With some slightly better tools later on, I built oak bunk beds for my
>>> boys that I probably couldn't have afforded to buy. That bunk bed, now
>>> split into singles, is still in use 30 years later. i.e. another 2 beds that
>>> didn't need to be bought.
>>>
>>> I built my deck for the cost of the materials plus a tool or two (or three?)
>>> but still way cheaper than having somebody else build it.
>>>
>>> I built a pretty nice rustic bed for my daughter from reclaimed wood and
>>> didn't have to, but did ;-) buy a single tool.
>>>
>>> The pair of book cases I'm building now would have to be custom made to not
>>> only match each other but also fit correctly in spaces that differ by about
>>> 2.5".
>>>
>>> The list goes on. I started doing woodworking both for the fun and for the
>>> savings. I couldn't afford what I wanted, but I could afford the tools, the
>>> materials and the time. When you spread the cost of the tools across multiple
>>> projects, the savings pay for them eventually.
>>
>> The factor you miss is time.
>
> You are making the assumption that I missed that factor. Just because I
> didn't *mention* it doesn't mean I *missed* it.
>
>> To some, time is money, to others, not so
>> much. If you make $75/hr at work, plus benefits and it takes a week or
>> two to build that bunk bed set, or chair, or dresser, plus tools,
>> materials and work space, well, you ain't likely saving money unless
>> bunk beds cost $3-6000 or so to buy.
>
> Are you implying that I took time off from my $75/hr job to build the beds?
> Regardless of my salary/hourly wage, I don't work 24/7. If I'm not using any
> of my $75 hours to do the woodworking then my wages aren't even part of the
> discussion.

So, you did miss the time factor. When the guy said doing woodwork to
save money was a fools errand, he must have been taking time into
account. Of course you can "save money" if you only count the cost of
material. Even then, I have seen plenty of items I can buy cheaper than
I can buy the materials.

>> Of course if it's a hobby, and you
>> build instead of watching Dancing with the Stars...
>
> It doesn't need to be a hobby to be a money saver. Building decks, mowing
> lawns and painting kitchens (taking a lunch break from that right now) are
> not on my list of hobbies. However, I do all of them to save some of those
> $75 chunks of cash that come in from my real job.

Yes, you do it yourself instead of watching Dancing with the Stars.
Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the guy
you are disagreeing with.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/1/2018 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
...

> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the guy
> you are disagreeing with.

The guy he's disagreeing with tends to disagree as a matter of course.

--

On 4/1/2018 10:54 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 4/1/2018 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
> ...
>
>> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the
>> guy you are disagreeing with.
>
> The guy he's disagreeing with tends to disagree as a matter of course.

Keith, or krw was the one that said doing wood work to save money was a
fools errand. While it's true he tends to disagree as a matter of
course, that is true of almost everyone posting here with RARE
exception. Only one I can think of that doesn't is the Electric Comet.
He posts new stuff and then everyone else argues about it. Very cool huh?

So, now that I see who made the "fools errand" statement, we can ask him
why he said it, and if time was the factor that made it a "fools errand"
or some other issue?
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/1/2018 12:39 PM, Leon wrote:
> On 4/1/2018 9:54 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 4/1/2018 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the
>>> guy you are disagreeing with.
>>
>> The guy he's disagreeing with tends to disagree as a matter of course.
>>
>> --
>>
> +1

True, krw does tend to disagree as a matter of course, just as most
everyone here, other than the electric comet, who seldom disagrees, so
he gets trashed for lack of punctuation.

Myself, I agreed with Keith if you include time as a factor, and I
agreed with the Derby dude if you exclude time as a factor. The rest of
you are just pissing in the wind...
--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/1/2018 12:58 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 10:03:40 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
>> On 3/30/2018 1:46 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 10:41:04 AM UTC-4, Jack wrote:
>>>> On 3/28/2018 11:18 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 10:32:17 PM UTC-4, [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>>>>>> in his shop
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>>>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>>>>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>>>>>
>>>>> I disagree.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even with the cost of my tools, I guarantee I've saved a ton of money by
>>>>> doing woodworking.
>>>>>
>>>>> Right from the get-go I bought a cheap circular saw and drill and built my
>>>>> own platform bed for much cheaper than I could have bought one. SWMBO and I
>>>>> enjoyed it for 37 years.
>>>>>
>>>>> With some slightly better tools later on, I built oak bunk beds for my
>>>>> boys that I probably couldn't have afforded to buy. That bunk bed, now
>>>>> split into singles, is still in use 30 years later. i.e. another 2 beds that
>>>>> didn't need to be bought.
>>>>>
>>>>> I built my deck for the cost of the materials plus a tool or two (or three?)
>>>>> but still way cheaper than having somebody else build it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I built a pretty nice rustic bed for my daughter from reclaimed wood and
>>>>> didn't have to, but did ;-) buy a single tool.
>>>>>
>>>>> The pair of book cases I'm building now would have to be custom made to not
>>>>> only match each other but also fit correctly in spaces that differ by about
>>>>> 2.5".
>>>>>
>>>>> The list goes on. I started doing woodworking both for the fun and for the
>>>>> savings. I couldn't afford what I wanted, but I could afford the tools, the
>>>>> materials and the time. When you spread the cost of the tools across multiple
>>>>> projects, the savings pay for them eventually.
>>>>
>>>> The factor you miss is time.
>>>
>>> You are making the assumption that I missed that factor. Just because I
>>> didn't *mention* it doesn't mean I *missed* it.
>>>
>>>> To some, time is money, to others, not so
>>>> much. If you make $75/hr at work, plus benefits and it takes a week or
>>>> two to build that bunk bed set, or chair, or dresser, plus tools,
>>>> materials and work space, well, you ain't likely saving money unless
>>>> bunk beds cost $3-6000 or so to buy.
>>>
>>> Are you implying that I took time off from my $75/hr job to build the beds?
>>> Regardless of my salary/hourly wage, I don't work 24/7. If I'm not using any
>>> of my $75 hours to do the woodworking then my wages aren't even part of the
>>> discussion.
>>
>> So, you did miss the time factor.
>
> Nope, didn't miss it, just didn't include it.
>
>> When the guy said doing woodwork to
>> save money was a fools errand, he must have been taking time into
>> account.
>
> "Must have"? You do make a lot of assumptions, don't you? Why don't you ask
> *him* instead of telling me what's wrong with my response.

I make the assumption because I agree with you, and figure even Krw
would not make the statement unless he was including time as a factor.
I wasn't talking to Keith so I didn't ask him, in fact, only saw the
statement in your post, had to go back and research who actually made
the statement you disagreed with because Leon and dpb said he tends to
disagree with everyone. I thought it was someone else who rarely posts
here, russleseaton specifically, so I was going to disagree with them.
Your quoted text made it look like russle said it, not keith.

>> Of course you can "save money" if you only count the cost of
>> material. Even then, I have seen plenty of items I can buy cheaper than
>> I can buy the materials.
>
> Sure, we've all seen crap. The stuff I've built has lasted through decades
> of rough use and is still going strong. Trust me, I price what I build before
> I start. It's not just the quality that has to be considered. In many cases,
> just the "custom design" aspect makes purchasing the item cost prohibitive.
> When a bed or a bookcase can't be bought off the shelf due to installation
> issues, then you have to add in the cost of a custom design and build.
>
> Besides, it's not just saving based on cost of materials. The whole point
> of this discussion was whether or not DIY woodworking saved you money when
> the cost the *tools* are included. I still say yes, it can.
>
>>
>>>> Of course if it's a hobby, and you
>>>> build instead of watching Dancing with the Stars...
>>>
>>> It doesn't need to be a hobby to be a money saver. Building decks, mowing
>>> lawns and painting kitchens (taking a lunch break from that right now) are
>>> not on my list of hobbies. However, I do all of them to save some of those
>>> $75 chunks of cash that come in from my real job.
>>
>> Yes, you do it yourself instead of watching Dancing with the Stars.
>> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the guy
>> you are disagreeing with.
>
> Probably? I thought you said it was a "must".

"Must" as in reasonably expected, not required, because it's the only
way I can see anyone, even Keith, could make such a claim. He replies
to most everything, so he can jump in anytime he wants, and clarify his
statement.

Myself, I don't build to save money, I build because I can, I like to
and because I can build specifically to my specs. Money is seldom a
factor to me, not now, not ever. Actually because I can is not totally
true. Once I know I can build something, repeating it becomes more of a
chore, and doing it is more for someone else's satisfaction, like a wife
or friend. I enjoy using tools though, always tools, mostly electric ones.

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On 4/1/2018 5:53 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Apr 2018 15:08:48 -0400, Jack <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 4/1/2018 12:39 PM, Leon wrote:
>>> On 4/1/2018 9:54 AM, dpb wrote:
>>>> On 4/1/2018 9:03 AM, Jack wrote:
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>>> Time, as I mentioned, is not a factor to you, but probably is to the
>>>>> guy you are disagreeing with.
>>>>
>>>> The guy he's disagreeing with tends to disagree as a matter of course.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>> +1
>>
>> True, krw does tend to disagree as a matter of course, just as most
>> everyone here, other than the electric comet, who seldom disagrees, so
>> he gets trashed for lack of punctuation.
>
> No, when I disagree I state my disagreement. Unlike others, I rarely
> write anything to hear myself talk.

So says the king of one word retorts. "Idiot" I recall as one of your
favorites.

>> Myself, I agreed with Keith if you include time as a factor, and I
>> agreed with the Derby dude if you exclude time as a factor. The rest of
>> you are just pissing in the wind...
>
> No, I'm not including the time factor. The average person will never
> pay off tools by making furniture. If he's buying tools just to save
> money, it'll never work.

Then I do disagree with you and totally agree with Derby. Also, I was
wrong when I thought even you were incapable of such a lame claim. I
guess if you consider the "average man" an idiot, buying tools to save
money wouldn't work. I think the average man, and most below average
men can save money buying tools and doing their own work, in spades if
excluding time as a factor. Of course, I also assume the average non
idiot can cut a straight line. Perhaps that's your problem...

--
Jack
Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.
http://jbstein.com

On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 06:05:26 +0000 (UTC)
Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

> some really insane roofs on those things

some of the attics have a lot of usable space that is unused
i mean a lot

so inefficient but i guess it is all they know how to do so they keep
slapping them up

On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 09:03:28 [email protected] wrote:

> Many post-war, and beyond, homes and other projects were built with
> Craftsman tools. I have a few I use and rely on. Nothing to
> apologize for.

he did not care as much what people thought it was more like he was
preempting the usual remarks he might hear from the peanut gallery

the only time i was impressed by the tool set someone had was when
they had obviously spent more time on the acquisition and maintenance
of the tools

they had become a curator of their own personal tool museum

nothing wrong with that but way more interesting to see what is
made using them

Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> on Wed, 28 Mar 2018 17:21:25 -0500 typed
in rec.woodworking the following:
>
>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>
>
>Well, that is, until you work with better quality tools. I have worked
>with both, I prefer better tools.

And sometimes, - "eh, it is done." If I'd had a [fill in the
blank] it might have been different. It might even have been better.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

On 3/28/2018 5:23 PM, ads wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 09:47:00 -0700, Electric Comet
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>> in his shop

Why?

>>
>> but always said but look at my work
>>
>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>
>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>
>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>> more challenging but more gratifying

I started out that way but when I began to sell 90% of my work, and not
cheap either, I found that better tools afforded me the ability to build
faster quality products. That put a bigger smile on my face than
working with lesser quality tools.


>>
>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>

Well, that is, until you work with better quality tools. I have worked
with both, I prefer better tools.

On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>> in his shop
>>
>> but always said but look at my work
>>
>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>
>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>
>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>> more challenging but more gratifying
>
>Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and nail gun?
>
>
>
>>
>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>
>True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.

I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.

On 3/30/2018 9:47 PM, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 11:25:23 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/28/2018 9:32 PM, [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Wed, 28 Mar 2018 18:16:11 -0700 (PDT), "[email protected]"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 11:47:04 AM UTC-5, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>> knew a guy that often aplogized why he had all craftsman brand tools
>>>>> in his shop
>>>>>
>>>>> but always said but look at my work
>>>>>
>>>>> his stuff sold well and not cheap
>>>>>
>>>>> most know the tools matter but the tool operator matters a lot more
>>>>>
>>>>> for me and others doing more with less is more interesting and it is
>>>>> more challenging but more gratifying
>>>>
>>>> Why is it more gratifying? I suppose someone could use a rock to pound in nails to build a house. Would he be more gratified or grateful than someone who swung a regular hammer? Or someone who used an air compressor and nail gun?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> if you get to make what you want and it brings enjoyment it just
>>>>> does not matter how you did it or what tools were used
>>>>
>>>> True on this. The end product, result is what counts. I suppose how you got there matters too. Maybe cutting a cord or two of firewood with a handsaw and ax makes someone feel better, more manly, than another who used a chainsaw. But usually the end result is the only important thing. If you can make a better cabinet or table with expensive tools, then I'd say use them over cheaper more crude tools. The end result is what matters. Not how you got there.
>>>
>>> I disagree. For a hobby, it matters a great deal how you got there.
>>> Doing woodworking to save money is a fools errand.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I built furniture to save money... ;~) So it kinda started as a hobby
>> to save money. I built our first couch in 1978 and most every thing
>> else was hand me downs. My tools quickly paid for themselves as most of
>> the furniture in our home, and my son's home, I built.
>
> You do it professionally.

Sorta, I am a legit business to keep the IRS happy. It is not a living
wage.

The weekend woodworker doesn't have time to
> get the use the tools as much as you do.

We I started collecting "good" ww tools in 1979 and on weekends I built
our furniture and gutted and enlarged/remodeled our kitchen on weekends.
The kitchen remodel in 1990 paid for all of the tools.



...and you can depreciate
> them. ;-)

I could but when I shut down/quit selling my work I don't want to have
to determine the value of my tools and pay the IRS. So I don't write
off or depreciate any of my equipment.


>
>> It is shocking, what is considered to be good furniture, costs today.
>
> Depends on where you buy it. I did alright in Amish country.

I bet. There are a few Amish stores in the Houston area, we bought 2
arm chair and 4 regular dining room chairs, well we had them custom
made. CHEAP IMHO, $1550 for all 6. I could not have built as well in
the time we needed to have them.



> Certainly not cheap but quite reasonable. OTOH, the Stickley was a
> tad pricey.

Yeah, that was the brand I was thinking about.


>
>> One piece in our home easily paid for all of my Festool tools. Another
>> easily paid for my SawStop. And we have 11 large pieces of furniture,
>> that I built, in our home. The smallest is a 7 drawer dresser that I
>> built in 1980. And I have sold 90 percent of what I have built. ;~)
>