I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as possible=
, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of very smal=
l round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use as a plant=
stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried and true) th=
at took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthd=
ay.
His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help t=
hem understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.
Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your stool=
s to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off of the =
legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor=
?"
Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-(
On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:33:16 PM UTC-7, Mike Marlow wrote:
> SonomaProducts.com wrote: > > Replying to this post but there are many po=
sts with the same argument > "the customeer is always right" And I agree wi=
th that statement. > However, I am not in the cabinet business. I don't bui=
ld what people > ask me to build. I don't take commisions. I am an artist. =
That would explain why you conform to nothing - like usenet standards. Mayb=
e you ought to get over yourself a bit. > I create > beautiful things in wo=
od. I have pretty much sold everything I ever > offered for sale. I have to=
ssed aside my failures. Not everyone will > love or even like what I do. I =
think of it like a pair of shoes. I > think most of them are ugly but someb=
ody is buying them. I just buy > the ones I like. My art is offered in the =
same way. Then don't sell or give your "art" to people who will not respect=
your "artistry". You clearly think too much of yourself and not enough of =
others. Just build your stuff to satisfy yourself and don't burden the rest=
of the world with what they can't possibly understand. Build it, admire it=
and go to sleep at night patting yourself on your own back. Just quit bitc=
hing that others don't see it your way. You may do very nice work, but you =
sir, are no artist. An artist is concerned for what the viewer sees. You ar=
e only concerned for what you want them to see. > > My original post was ab=
out how a dear and close friend does not have > the same stylistic sensibil=
ities as myself and I thought that was > funny. No - you did not think it w=
as funny. You bitched about it. Stand up and be a man and accept what you s=
aid. > > I know that I have been the one to push harsh opinions on little >=
insignifacant subjects sometimes so I guess what goes around... Yeah - it =
sucks when it comes around - don't it?... -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@windstrea=
m.net
I guess you totally miss the irony in my original post. I explain how I tak=
e all this time doing such an exact job and the world doesn't notice. I was=
capping on myself as much (more actually) than my friend.
I do take offense that you say I am not an artist. I am. Is my art loved by=
all? No. Does that stop me from creating what is in my heart? No. Are ther=
e those who can appreciate and love my art? Yes.
That's the thing about art. You don't get to decide. It is an expression of=
the artist.
Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 19:02:16 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
>
>> And there are too many arrogant "woodworkers" here who think their
>> opinions are what matters. Damned what the public may think about
>> it..
>
> And since I do it as a hobby, I can be as arrogant as I wish :-).
>
> But yes, when I do something for someone who's paying for it, I
> either do it their way or not at all.
Damned Larry - you feel strongly about this - you posted it three times. I
surrender...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:
> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as
> possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of
> very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use
> as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried
> and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday.
>
> His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help
> them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.
>
> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your
> stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off
> of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?"
>
> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-(
Welcome to the world of discerning craftsmen operating in an increasingly
fickle culture. To make a living at it, you must give the customer what
they want, and not reason why ... whack away, Bubba!
--
www.ewoodshop.com
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:11:18 PM UTC-7, Swingman wrote:
>> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote: > I spend hours getting
>> my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as > possible, measuring from
>> eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of > very small round
>> tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use > as a plant
>> stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried > and
>> true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for
>> his birthday. > > His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in
>> the shower!" I help > them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use
>> in a wet environment. > > Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I
>> want to give one of your > stools to a friend. Do you have another one?
>> Could you whack an inch off > of the legs and add some adjusters to the
>> bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?" > > Maybe I can get him
>> something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-( Welcome to the
>> world of discerning craftsmen operating in an increasingly fickle
>> culture. To make a living at it, you must give the customer what they
>> want, and not reason why ... whack away, Bubba! -- www.ewoodshop.com
>
> I don't build-to-suit. I build what I love and if people want to buy it that is nice.
Great, when it works. Good luck to you, and hold tight to that day job ....
--
www.ewoodshop.com
On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 4:04:20 PM UTC-7, Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote: > On 10/1/2012 7:57 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote: >> On M=
on, 01 Oct 2012 16:49:14 -0700, SonomaProducts.com wrote: >> >>> Maybe I ca=
n get him something from Ikea. He won't know the >>> difference. :-( >> >> =
There are entirely too many people out there like that! Next time >> give h=
im a board with a recess routed in it and call it a picture >> frame. You c=
ould even mount a picture of your table in it :-). >> > > Along the same li=
nes, I built something with beautiful highly figured > wood and gave it as =
a house warming gift to a friend and his wife. > > She said, didn't you hav=
e any better wood. I explained that the > beautiful figure was highly prize=
d and treasured. She said it would be > better if it were just plain brown.=
And... when I had a custom built guitar built, I selected the wood. It was=
the wood that I liked. Not what the luthier liked, or what anyone else may=
have liked or not liked. It was my money, and my desires. Why do guys here=
think that their preferences are ordained? It's what the customer wants. S=
heese... -- -Mike- [email protected]
Replying to this post but there are many posts with the same argument "the =
customeer is always right" And I agree with that statement. However, I am n=
ot in the cabinet business. I don't build what people ask me to build. I do=
n't take commisions. I am an artist. I create beautiful things in wood. I h=
ave pretty much sold everything I ever offered for sale. I have tossed asid=
e my failures. Not everyone will love or even like what I do. I think of it=
like a pair of shoes. I think most of them are ugly but somebody is buying=
them. I just buy the ones I like. My art is offered in the same way.=20
My original post was about how a dear and close friend does not have the sa=
me stylistic sensibilities as myself and I thought that was funny.
I know that I have been the one to push harsh opinions on little insignifac=
ant subjects sometimes so I guess what goes around...
On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:10:20 AM UTC-7, dpb wrote:
> On 10/3/2012 12:03 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote: ... > My original post w=
as about how a dear and close friend does not have > the same stylistic sen=
sibilities as myself and I thought that was > funny. ... That you thought i=
t was funny certainly didn't come thru...if had thought that were the case =
I'd've not bothered w/ the response at all. --
I spend hours and hours studying and doing an exact job thinking I have ach=
ieved some great pinnical of my craft. My dear friend says "can you whack a=
n inch off of that?". The laugh is on me, not him.
On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:11:18 PM UTC-7, Swingman wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote: > I spend hours getting my=
Stickley reproduction designs as exact as > possible, measuring from eBay =
photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of > very small round tables, in C=
herry (not classic). Something you might use > as a plant stand. I exercise=
exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried > and true) that took a few we=
eks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday. > > His wife=
says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help > them un=
derstand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment. > > Now a =
few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your > stools to=
a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off > of the le=
gs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?"=
> > Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference.=
:-( Welcome to the world of discerning craftsmen operating in an increasin=
gly fickle culture. To make a living at it, you must give the customer what=
they want, and not reason why ... whack away, Bubba! -- www.ewoodshop.com
I don't build-to-suit. I build what I love and if people want to buy it tha=
t is nice.
"RonB" wrote:
> I have built several heavy rocking horses using contrasting
> hardwoods. I spend 80-100 hours on each and I have seen some with
> similar substance and features in the $500 and up price range. Two
> of mine have gone to grandkids and one to the daughter of a good
> friend. The other two have been donated to our church for raffles.
Invariably someone sees one of them and asks the dreaded question:
"How much would it cost for you to build one of those for me?
--------------------------------------------------
Normally the price is $1,000.00; however, if you are not in a hurry,
could probably do one for $750 in about 6 months after receipt of a
$500.00 advance deposit.
Keeps out the riff raff.
Lew
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>
> Replying to this post but there are many posts with the same argument
> "the customeer is always right" And I agree with that statement.
> However, I am not in the cabinet business. I don't build what people
> ask me to build. I don't take commisions. I am an artist.
That would explain why you conform to nothing - like usenet standards.
Maybe you ought to get over yourself a bit.
> I create
> beautiful things in wood. I have pretty much sold everything I ever
> offered for sale. I have tossed aside my failures. Not everyone will
> love or even like what I do. I think of it like a pair of shoes. I
> think most of them are ugly but somebody is buying them. I just buy
> the ones I like. My art is offered in the same way.
Then don't sell or give your "art" to people who will not respect your
"artistry". You clearly think too much of yourself and not enough of
others. Just build your stuff to satisfy yourself and don't burden the rest
of the world with what they can't possibly understand. Build it, admire it
and go to sleep at night patting yourself on your own back. Just quit
bitching that others don't see it your way. You may do very nice work, but
you sir, are no artist. An artist is concerned for what the viewer sees.
You are only concerned for what you want them to see.
>
> My original post was about how a dear and close friend does not have
> the same stylistic sensibilities as myself and I thought that was
> funny.
No - you did not think it was funny. You bitched about it. Stand up and be
a man and accept what you said.
>
> I know that I have been the one to push harsh opinions on little
> insignifacant subjects sometimes so I guess what goes around...
Yeah - it sucks when it comes around - don't it?...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Monday, October 1, 2012 6:49:14 PM UTC-5, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as possib=
le, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of very sm=
all round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use as a pla=
nt stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried and true) =
that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birt=
hday.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help=
them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your sto=
ols to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off of th=
e legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven flo=
or?"
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :=
-(
I have built several heavy rocking horses using contrasting hardwoods. I s=
pend 80-100 hours on each and I have seen some with similar substance and f=
eatures in the $500 and up price range. Two of mine have gone to grandkids=
and one to the daughter of a good friend. The other two have been donated=
to our church for raffles.
Invariably someone sees one of them and asks the dreaded question: "How mu=
ch would it cost for you to build one of those for me? I start off explain=
ing that there is nearly $200 worth of hardwood and hardware in the horse. =
That is when I get that "over the top of the glasses look" and you can hea=
r them thinking "This guy is getting ready to screw me." These people hav=
e no clue that with the cost of materials, even if I charged $500, I could =
make the big bucks shoving hamburgers across the counter at McDonald's.
They don't have a clue.
RonB
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> Usnet standards? Piffle. I enjoy reading a lot and sharing a little.
> I was castigated a few times for "top posting" which seemd more
> logical for me using my Google reader. However, I stopped doing that
> since it seemd to be a problem for old fashioned email reader types.
> Other than that I never had any class on how to "comply" with usenet
> and have no interest in doing so. I am a free man and conduct myself
> so. If you are so sophisticated in usenet usage maybe you can filter
> out my non-artistic drivle and bad spellin.
Nope - I don't find your stuff to be insufferable. I don't filter anybody
(with almost no exceptions), so you're certainly not going to be filtered.
But - readability is another story. It's not a matter of what you are
saying, but how you are saying it. Now that you've had it explained to you
that your posts are almost uninteligable, if you persist, I may just skip
over them - though I won't kill file you. What you say above is a bit over
the edge though - you do it your way with no regard for anyone else? For
any accepted standards in a community? That really does not fit with the
other things you've presented of yourself here in the past.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:01:13 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
> "RonB" wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > I have built several heavy rocking horses using contrasting=20
>=20
> > hardwoods. I spend 80-100 hours on each and I have seen some with=20
>=20
> > similar substance and features in the $500 and up price range. Two=20
>=20
> > of mine have gone to grandkids and one to the daughter of a good=20
>=20
> > friend. The other two have been donated to our church for raffles.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Invariably someone sees one of them and asks the dreaded question:=20
>=20
> "How much would it cost for you to build one of those for me?
>=20
> --------------------------------------------------
>=20
> Normally the price is $1,000.00; however, if you are not in a hurry,=20
>=20
> could probably do one for $750 in about 6 months after receipt of a=20
>=20
> $500.00 advance deposit.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Keeps out the riff raff.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Lew
Mine are not quite in that range. The carousel-type of carved horses do se=
ll in the $1,500 and up (way up) range. Mine is a whimsical take-off of ab=
out three different patterns I picked up over the years plus about 1/3 my o=
wn design. I have a 16" x 44" x 2-1/2" slab of walnut in the garage now an=
d I'm pretty sure it contains a horse body. Maple on the top row of my rac=
k will make the rockers. Smaller chunks of cherry and Myrtle wood will do =
mane, tail and details. Just need to it get going.
RonB
On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 8:59:23 AM UTC-7, Larry Kraus wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote: >I spend hours getting my =
Stickley reproduction designs as exact as possible, measuring from eBay pho=
tos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of very small round tables, in Cherry=
(not classic). Something you might use as a plant stand. I exercise exacti=
ng detail. I did an oil finish (tried and true) that took a few weeks to co=
mplete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday. > >His wife says "Hey=
great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help them understand may=
be it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment. > >Now a few weeks lat=
er I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your stools to a friend. Do y=
ou have another one? Could you whack an inch off of the legs and add some a=
djusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?" > >Maybe I can g=
et him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-( Keep in mind =
that the whole Arts & Crafts (Stickley) thing was supposed to be about simp=
le functionality. A stool is meant to be used, not admired in an art galler=
y. Whack off a leg instead of an inch. Three legs will be stable on that un=
even floor.
I agree that utility is a key component of the style. The things I make are=
beautiful and useful. However, this particular piece would fall apart if t=
hey used it in the shower for very long. Oil finish would not stop water pr=
oblems that would eventually kill it. I did use pinned tenons so it would h=
ang on for a while but would give up the ghost eventually. Also, people pay=
for some of my stuff like art when I have something beautiful enough to ch=
arge like that.
I just added up the number of "whack an inch off" items in this thread....
If you cut off the cumulative number of inches from the table/stool the seat
will be on the floor thus saving you the time and trouble of making legs and
stretchers... ;~)
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as possible,
measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of very small
round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use as a plant
stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried and true) that
took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday.
His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help
them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.
Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your stools
to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off of the
legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven
floor?"
Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-(
On 10/1/2012 9:52 PM, Richard wrote:
> On 10/1/2012 7:11 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> "SonomaProducts.com"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as
>>> possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a
>>> run of
>>> very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might
>>> use
>>> as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried
>>> and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear
>>> friend for his birthday.
>>>
>>> His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I
>>> help
>>> them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.
>>>
>>> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your
>>> stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off
>>> of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an
>>> uneven floor?"
>>>
>>> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the
>>> difference. :-(
>>
>> Welcome to the world of discerning craftsmen operating in an increasingly
>> fickle culture. To make a living at it, you must give the customer what
>> they want, and not reason why ... whack away, Bubba!
>>
>>
> What the customer wants is a stool from Ikea...
Then don't give up your day job ... a _custom_er getting what he thinks
he wants, even if it's "whacked off" legs and stained puce pink, is what
keeps him away from Ikea, and paying you instead.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
On 10/2/2012 12:06 PM, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/1/2012 9:52 PM, Richard wrote:
>> On 10/1/2012 7:11 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>> "SonomaProducts.com"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>> What the customer wants is a stool from Ikea...
>
> Then don't give up your day job ... a _custom_er getting what he thinks
> he wants, even if it's "whacked off" legs and stained puce pink, is what
> keeps him away from Ikea, and paying you instead.
>
Just don't put your name on it.
"RonB" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
On Friday, October 5, 2012 11:10:49 AM UTC-5, RonB wrote:
> On Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:01:13 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>
> > "RonB" wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > I have built several heavy rocking horses using contrasting
>
> >
>
> > > hardwoods. I spend 80-100 hours on each and I have seen some with
>
> >
>
> > > similar substance and features in the $500 and up price range. Two
>
> >
>
> > > of mine have gone to grandkids and one to the daughter of a good
>
> >
>
> > > friend. The other two have been donated to our church for raffles.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Invariably someone sees one of them and asks the dreaded question:
>
> >
>
> > "How much would it cost for you to build one of those for me?
>
> >
>
> > --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
>
> > Normally the price is $1,000.00; however, if you are not in a hurry,
>
> >
>
> > could probably do one for $750 in about 6 months after receipt of a
>
> >
>
> > $500.00 advance deposit.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Keeps out the riff raff.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Lew
>
>
>
> Mine are not quite in that range. The carousel-type of carved horses do
> sell in the $1,500 and up (way up) range. Mine is a whimsical take-off of
> about three different patterns I picked up over the years plus about 1/3
> my own design. I have a 16" x 44" x 2-1/2" slab of walnut in the garage
> now and I'm pretty sure it contains a horse body. Maple on the top row of
> my rack will make the rockers. Smaller chunks of cherry and Myrtle wood
> will do mane, tail and details. Just need to it get going.
>
>
>
> RonB
A couple of them are here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27816715@N03/
=============================================================================================================
Fantastic work.
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as
> possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run
> of very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you
> might use as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil
> finish (tried and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one
> to a dear friend for his birthday.
>
> His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I
> help them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet
> environment.
>
> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your
> stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch
> off of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have
> an uneven floor?"
>
> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference.
> :-(
When I had a broken lef I bought one of these (sorry if it wraps)
<http://www.amazon.com/Moen-DN7025-Adjustable-Shower-
White/dp/B000VYK87U/ref=pd_sim_hpc_8>
--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid
On 10/1/2012 7:11 PM, Swingman wrote:
> "SonomaProducts.com"<[email protected]> wrote:
>> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as
>> possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of
>> very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use
>> as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried
>> and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday.
>>
>> His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help
>> them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.
>>
>> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your
>> stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off
>> of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?"
>>
>> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-(
>
> Welcome to the world of discerning craftsmen operating in an increasingly
> fickle culture. To make a living at it, you must give the customer what
> they want, and not reason why ... whack away, Bubba!
>
>
What the customer wants is a stool from Ikea...
On 10/1/2012 7:57 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:49:14 -0700, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>
>> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference.
>> :-(
>
> There are entirely too many people out there like that! Next time give
> him a board with a recess routed in it and call it a picture frame. You
> could even mount a picture of your table in it :-).
>
Along the same lines, I built something with beautiful highly figured
wood and gave it as a house warming gift to a friend and his wife.
She said, didn't you have any better wood. I explained that the
beautiful figure was highly prized and treasured. She said it would be
better if it were just plain brown.
Jack wrote:
> On 10/3/2012 3:33 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>
>>> I create
>>> beautiful things in wood. I have pretty much sold everything I ever
>>> offered for sale. I have tossed aside my failures. Not everyone will
>>> love or even like what I do. I think of it like a pair of shoes. I
>>> think most of them are ugly but somebody is buying them. I just buy
>>> the ones I like. My art is offered in the same way.
>>
>> Then don't sell or give your "art" to people who will not respect
>> your "artistry". You clearly think too much of yourself and not
>> enough of others. Just build your stuff to satisfy yourself and
>> don't burden the rest of the world with what they can't possibly
>> understand. Build it, admire it and go to sleep at night patting
>> yourself on your own back. Just quit bitching that others don't see
>> it your way. You may do very nice work, but you sir, are no artist.
>> An artist is concerned for what the viewer sees. You are only
>> concerned for what you want them to see.
>
> I think you are confused. A businessman may be concerned about what
> others see, artists almost never care, and many do their life's work
> unnoticed until long dead. Myself, I'm certainly not an artist, nor
> am I a business man. I do woodwork for my own enjoyment, same reason
> I like to program, or shoot pool, or take pictures. I don't do any of
> these things for money, and don't particularly care who likes my stuff
> besides me.
>
> On the other hand, My daughter just got married and I made her an
> Irish wedding goblet out of a gorgeous hunk of black walnut cut from
> a friends yard years ago and sitting in my shop waiting for a special
> occasion. It turned out pretty nice considering I haven't done much
> lathe work in years but I was still hoping she liked it. She cried
> when she saw it because I made it I guess. My buddy came in from out
> of town for the wedding and when he saw the captured rings on the
> goblet, he reminded me I made him a baby's rattle 35 years ago when
> his son was born with captured rings, and he just gave it to his son
> for his new baby.
> That's how "gardeners" gauge value, and when you want to take a custom
> made wooden gift into the shower, you insult the gardener, when you
> still have the gift 35 years later, and pass it down to your children,
> you make the gardener smile, even when he is is a crotchety old man.
The difference is that you passively got to enjoy those moments. You did
not dictatte those moments. One cannot presume to dictate what others
should appreciate, which is what I was trying to say in my original
comments.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
jo4hn wrote:
> On 10/2/2012 12:06 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> On 10/1/2012 9:52 PM, Richard wrote:
>>> On 10/1/2012 7:11 PM, Swingman wrote:
>>>> "SonomaProducts.com"<[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>> What the customer wants is a stool from Ikea...
>>
>> Then don't give up your day job ... a _custom_er getting what he
>> thinks he wants, even if it's "whacked off" legs and stained puce
>> pink, is what keeps him away from Ikea, and paying you instead.
>>
> Just don't put your name on it.
Why? Is your name reflective of what you want (or insist...) that other
people will want and/or buy, or is your name reflective of giving people
what they want? The former suggests that you have all of the answers and
you are the oracle of all that is proper in woodworking. That would only be
reflective of one or two people here...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 3:24:55 PM UTC-7, Mike Marlow wrote:
> SonomaProducts.com wrote: > > I guess you totally miss the irony in my or=
iginal post. I explain how > I take all this time doing such an exact job a=
nd the world doesn't > notice. I was capping on myself as much (more actual=
ly) than my > friend. I guess I did miss that. Please allow me to say that =
such was not very obvious (at least to me...) in your comments. > > I do ta=
ke offense that you say I am not an artist. I am. Is my art > loved by all?=
No. Does that stop me from creating what is in my > heart? No. Are there t=
hose who can appreciate and love my art? Yes. Yes - I'll take that back. Do=
ing great work - especially with such dedication to detail is indeed a form=
of artistry - and I do not want to deny that in your work. My bad for usin=
g that phrase. I will hold though to what I believe is a component of an ar=
tist, which is to appeal to the eye of the "public" - though I know that ca=
n sometimes conflict with the inner thing in an artist. Now - go figure tha=
t out... > > That's the thing about art. You don't get to decide. It is an =
> expression of the artist. I agree. And I suppose it is the right of an ar=
tist to complain about not being understood. And as a regular Joe, I just d=
on't understand them damned artists... -- -Mike- [email protected]=
et
You are a gentleman sir. In-spite of my dickishness. ;^)
tiredofspam wrote:
> On 10/1/2012 7:57 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>> On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:49:14 -0700, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the
>>> difference. :-(
>>
>> There are entirely too many people out there like that! Next time
>> give him a board with a recess routed in it and call it a picture
>> frame. You could even mount a picture of your table in it :-).
>>
>
> Along the same lines, I built something with beautiful highly figured
> wood and gave it as a house warming gift to a friend and his wife.
>
> She said, didn't you have any better wood. I explained that the
> beautiful figure was highly prized and treasured. She said it would be
> better if it were just plain brown.
And... when I had a custom built guitar built, I selected the wood. It was
the wood that I liked. Not what the luthier liked, or what anyone else may
have liked or not liked. It was my money, and my desires. Why do guys here
think that their preferences are ordained? It's what the customer wants.
Sheese...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On 10/6/2012 9:19 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 10/3/2012 7:11 PM, Swingman wrote:
> ...
>
>> remarking upon the necessity for most of us to put the term "custom" into
>> the forefront....
>
> Sign noticed in cabinetry shop window in Chatham, England--
>
> "Joinery for Purpose"
I also like their term "bespoke" ... Bespoke Furniture, cabinets. etc.
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
"SonomaProducts.com" <
>
> Replying to this post but there are many posts with the same argument
> "the customeer is always right" And I agree with that statement. However,
> I am not in the cabinet business. I don't build what people ask me to
> build. I don't take commisions. I am an artist. I create beautiful things
> in wood. I have pretty much sold everything I ever offered for sale. I
> have tossed aside my failures. Not everyone will love or even like what I
> do. I think of it like a pair of shoes. I think most of them are ugly but
> somebody is buying them. I just buy the ones I like. My art is offered in the same way.
>
> My original post was about how a dear and close friend does not have the
> same stylistic sensibilities as myself and I thought that was funny.
>
> I know that I have been the one to push harsh opinions on little
> insignifacant subjects sometimes so I guess what goes around...
I've mentioned this in the past, but once again ... I've always been a fan
of your work and certainly was not denigrating it in any way, simply
remarking upon the necessity for most of us to put the term "custom" into
the forefront. I meant it when I said good luck ... keep following that
muse, Bubba, and don't let a bunch of us jaded old farts get you down.
--
www.ewoodshop.com
On 10/6/2012 10:23 AM, Swingman wrote:
> On 10/6/2012 9:19 AM, dpb wrote:
>> On 10/3/2012 7:11 PM, Swingman wrote:
>> ...
>>
>>> remarking upon the necessity for most of us to put the term "custom"
>>> into
>>> the forefront....
>>
>> Sign noticed in cabinetry shop window in Chatham, England--
>>
>> "Joinery for Purpose"
>
> I also like their term "bespoke" ... Bespoke Furniture, cabinets. etc.
>
Bespoke
http://www.scion.com/BeSpoke/
On 10/3/2012 7:11 PM, Swingman wrote:
...
> I've mentioned this in the past, but once again ... I've always been a fan
> of your work and certainly was not denigrating it in any way, simply
> remarking upon the necessity for most of us to put the term "custom" into
> the forefront. I meant it when I said good luck ... keep following that
> muse, Bubba, and don't let a bunch of us jaded old farts get you down.
Indeed, my comments are nothing against the work...or the love thereof;
only that reality often punctures one's hoped-for bubble. :(
--
<<snip>>
>>>
>>
>> Along the same lines, I built something with beautiful highly figured
>> wood and gave it as a house warming gift to a friend and his wife.
>>
>> She said, didn't you have any better wood. I explained that the
>> beautiful figure was highly prized and treasured. She said it would be
>> better if it were just plain brown.
>
>And... when I had a custom built guitar built, I selected the wood. It was
>the wood that I liked. Not what the luthier liked, or what anyone else may
>have liked or not liked. It was my money, and my desires. Why do guys here
>think that their preferences are ordained? It's what the customer wants.
>Sheese...
And did you miss the part where he said that it was GIVEN as a GIFT?
Not as a commission, but something from his heart and hands?
A proverb comes to mind about a gift and looking into the mouth of
said gift.
just a thought
Larry Blanchard wrote:
> On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:49:14 -0700, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>
>> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the
>> difference. :-(
>
> There are entirely too many people out there like that! Next time
> give him a board with a recess routed in it and call it a picture
> frame. You could even mount a picture of your table in it :-).
And there are too many arrogant "woodworkers" here who think their opinions
are what matters. Damned what the public may think about it...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Monday, October 1, 2012 9:58:32 PM UTC-7, dpb wrote:
> On 10/1/2012 6:49 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote: > I spend hours getting m=
y Stickley reproduction designs as exact as > possible, measuring from eBay=
photos and Stickley catlogs. ... ... > Now a few weeks later I get an emai=
l. "Hey I want to give one of your > stools to a friend. Do you have anothe=
r one? Could you whack an inch > off of the legs and add some adjusters to =
the bottom in-case they > have an uneven floor?" > > Maybe I can get him so=
mething from Ikea. He won't know the > difference. :-( You doing art or try=
ing to make a living from woodworking here? --
Today I do it for love. I love building this stuff. I do it as a side-job/h=
obby. If I can sell what I make it helps buy more wood and tools. I do sell=
most of what o build pretty quickly.
On Friday, October 5, 2012 11:10:49 AM UTC-5, RonB wrote:
> On Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:01:13 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>=20
> > "RonB" wrote:
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > I have built several heavy rocking horses using contrasting=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > hardwoods. I spend 80-100 hours on each and I have seen some with=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > similar substance and features in the $500 and up price range. Two=
=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > of mine have gone to grandkids and one to the daughter of a good=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > > friend. The other two have been donated to our church for raffles.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Invariably someone sees one of them and asks the dreaded question:=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > "How much would it cost for you to build one of those for me?
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > --------------------------------------------------
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Normally the price is $1,000.00; however, if you are not in a hurry,=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > could probably do one for $750 in about 6 months after receipt of a=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > $500.00 advance deposit.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Keeps out the riff raff.
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> >=20
>=20
> > Lew
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Mine are not quite in that range. The carousel-type of carved horses do =
sell in the $1,500 and up (way up) range. Mine is a whimsical take-off of =
about three different patterns I picked up over the years plus about 1/3 my=
own design. I have a 16" x 44" x 2-1/2" slab of walnut in the garage now =
and I'm pretty sure it contains a horse body. Maple on the top row of my r=
ack will make the rockers. Smaller chunks of cherry and Myrtle wood will d=
o mane, tail and details. Just need to it get going.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> RonB
A couple of them are here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/27816715@N03/
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>
> I guess you totally miss the irony in my original post. I explain how
> I take all this time doing such an exact job and the world doesn't
> notice. I was capping on myself as much (more actually) than my
> friend.
I guess I did miss that. Please allow me to say that such was not very
obvious (at least to me...) in your comments.
>
> I do take offense that you say I am not an artist. I am. Is my art
> loved by all? No. Does that stop me from creating what is in my
> heart? No. Are there those who can appreciate and love my art? Yes.
Yes - I'll take that back. Doing great work - especially with such
dedication to detail is indeed a form of artistry - and I do not want to
deny that in your work. My bad for using that phrase. I will hold though
to what I believe is a component of an artist, which is to appeal to the eye
of the "public" - though I know that can sometimes conflict with the inner
thing in an artist. Now - go figure that out...
>
> That's the thing about art. You don't get to decide. It is an
> expression of the artist.
I agree. And I suppose it is the right of an artist to complain about not
being understood. And as a regular Joe, I just don't understand them damned
artists...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as
> possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a
> run of very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something
> you might use as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an
> oil finish (tried and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give
> one to a dear friend for his birthday.
>
> His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I
> help them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet
> environment.
>
> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your
> stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch
> off of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they
> have an uneven floor?"
>
> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the
> difference. :-(
Yeahbut - they liked your work. What more can you ask for? One thing you
have to remember is that when you make something for someone, it is their
eye that beholds the beauty - not yours. It's hard to let go of a baby, but
if you can't take their value of your work, then don't give your work away.
What is really wrong in what they asked?...
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Friday, October 5, 2012 9:16:12 PM UTC-5, Larry Jaques wrote:
> On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:20:31 -0400, Bill wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> >RonB wrote:
>=20
> >
>=20
> >>> RonB
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> A couple of them are here:
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/27816715@N03/
>=20
> >>
>=20
> >
>=20
> >They are beautiful! : )
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> +1. Wow, the figure in that walnut mane on #5 is just breathtaking.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
>=20
> Doctors prescribe medicine of which they know little,
>=20
> to cure diseases of which they know less,
>=20
> in human beings of which they know nothing.
>=20
> --Francois-Marie Arouet Voltaire, about 250 years ago
Thanks for the nice comments folks - appreciated. You guys probably wouldn=
't want to know what I pay for my figured and curly walnut. there is a har=
dwood mill about 35 miles south of us that provides air-dried wood for loca=
l cabinetmakers. But a large part of their market is supplying area high s=
chool wood programs. I bought the last small pile of their sapwood/curly '=
cast-offs' for .75 to $1.10 per board foot. I have to pick through the pil=
e and about 1/2 or more of a board ends up in the kindling bin but there is=
some beautiful stuff in there.
Since the next horse will be walnut I am going to try to contrast mane and =
tail with some Myrtle wood I got in Oregon a couple of weeks ago. Saddle -=
Maybe Cherry.
RonB
Dave wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:04:32 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>> And... when I had a custom built guitar built, I selected the wood.
>> It was the wood that I liked. Not what the luthier liked, or what
>> anyone else may have liked or not liked. It was my money, and my
>> desires. Why do guys here think that their preferences are
>> ordained? It's what the customer wants. Sheese...
>
> We all aspire to be the valued artist ~ the one that gets paid $$$ for
> whatever we make and no matter how it turns out.
And the real woodworking "artist" realizes it is not all about what he
delivers - it's about what his consumer wants, that he can deliver. That
changes the focus greatly.
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
Leon wrote:
> On 10/2/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
>> tiredofspam wrote:
>>> On 10/1/2012 7:57 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:49:14 -0700, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the
>>>>> difference. :-(
>>>>
>>>> There are entirely too many people out there like that! Next time
>>>> give him a board with a recess routed in it and call it a picture
>>>> frame. You could even mount a picture of your table in it :-).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Along the same lines, I built something with beautiful highly
>>> figured wood and gave it as a house warming gift to a friend and
>>> his wife. She said, didn't you have any better wood. I explained that
>>> the
>>> beautiful figure was highly prized and treasured. She said it would
>>> be better if it were just plain brown.
>>
>> And... when I had a custom built guitar built, I selected the wood. It
>> was the wood that I liked. Not what the luthier liked, or what
>> anyone else may have liked or not liked. It was my money, and my
>> desires. Why do guys here think that their preferences are
>> ordained? It's what the customer wants. Sheese...
>>
>
>
> Cant you read MIKE?????? It was a freaking GIFT!!!!
>
> YOU DO NOT look a gift horse in the mouth.
That does not make sense Leon. The recipient did not look a gift horse in
the mouth. They asked for an addition item, with different specifications.
Can you read???
--
-Mike-
[email protected]
On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 12:33:16 PM UTC-7, Mike Marlow wrote:
> SonomaProducts.com wrote: > > Replying to this post but there are many po=
sts with the same argument > "the customeer is always right" And I agree wi=
th that statement. > However, I am not in the cabinet business. I don't bui=
ld what people > ask me to build. I don't take commisions. I am an artist. =
That would explain why you conform to nothing - like usenet standards. Mayb=
e you ought to get over yourself a bit. > I create > beautiful things in wo=
od. I have pretty much sold everything I ever > offered for sale. I have to=
ssed aside my failures. Not everyone will > love or even like what I do. I =
think of it like a pair of shoes. I > think most of them are ugly but someb=
ody is buying them. I just buy > the ones I like. My art is offered in the =
same way. Then don't sell or give your "art" to people who will not respect=
your "artistry". You clearly think too much of yourself and not enough of =
others. Just build your stuff to satisfy yourself and don't burden the rest=
of the world with what they can't possibly understand. Build it, admire it=
and go to sleep at night patting yourself on your own back. Just quit bitc=
hing that others don't see it your way. You may do very nice work, but you =
sir, are no artist. An artist is concerned for what the viewer sees. You ar=
e only concerned for what you want them to see. > > My original post was ab=
out how a dear and close friend does not have > the same stylistic sensibil=
ities as myself and I thought that was > funny. No - you did not think it w=
as funny. You bitched about it. Stand up and be a man and accept what you s=
aid. > > I know that I have been the one to push harsh opinions on little >=
insignifacant subjects sometimes so I guess what goes around... Yeah - it =
sucks when it comes around - don't it?... -- -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@windstrea=
m.net
Usnet standards? Piffle. I enjoy reading a lot and sharing a little. I was =
castigated a few times for "top posting" which seemd more logical for me us=
ing my Google reader. However, I stopped doing that since it seemd to be a =
problem for old fashioned email reader types. Other than that I never had a=
ny class on how to "comply" with usenet and have no interest in doing so. I=
am a free man and conduct myself so. If you are so sophisticated in usenet=
usage maybe you can filter out my non-artistic drivle and bad spellin.
On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 11:36:18 -0700 (PDT), RonB <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On Friday, October 5, 2012 11:10:49 AM UTC-5, RonB wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:01:13 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>> > "RonB" wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > > I have built several heavy rocking horses using contrasting
>>
>> >
>>
>> > > hardwoods. I spend 80-100 hours on each and I have seen some with
>>
>> >
>>
>> > > similar substance and features in the $500 and up price range. Two
>>
>> >
>>
>> > > of mine have gone to grandkids and one to the daughter of a good
>>
>> >
>>
>> > > friend. The other two have been donated to our church for raffles.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Invariably someone sees one of them and asks the dreaded question:
>>
>> >
>>
>> > "How much would it cost for you to build one of those for me?
>>
>> >
>>
>> > --------------------------------------------------
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Normally the price is $1,000.00; however, if you are not in a hurry,
>>
>> >
>>
>> > could probably do one for $750 in about 6 months after receipt of a
>>
>> >
>>
>> > $500.00 advance deposit.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Keeps out the riff raff.
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Lew
>>
>>
>>
>> Mine are not quite in that range. The carousel-type of carved horses do sell in the $1,500 and up (way up) range. Mine is a whimsical take-off of about three different patterns I picked up over the years plus about 1/3 my own design. I have a 16" x 44" x 2-1/2" slab of walnut in the garage now and I'm pretty sure it contains a horse body. Maple on the top row of my rack will make the rockers. Smaller chunks of cherry and Myrtle wood will do mane, tail and details. Just need to it get going.
>>
>>
>>
>> RonB
>
>A couple of them are here:
>
>http://www.flickr.com/photos/27816715@N03/
Great work, I have some things I make and the family loves them but
then they start saying you could make this or that and sell them and
street fairs. My mother was trying to get me make wood coasters. I
have to keep reminding them there is a reason I'm still a licensed
master electrician. So I guess I understand where Sonoma Products is
coming from. I want to make what I take enjoyment in.
Mike M
On 10/2/2012 2:30 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:11:18 PM UTC-7, Swingman wrote:
>> "SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote: > I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as > possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of > very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use > as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried > and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday. > > His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help > them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment. > > Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your > stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off > of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?" > > Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-( Welcome to the world of discerning craftsmen operating in an increasingly fickle culture. T
o make a living at it, you must give the customer what they want, and not reason why ... whack away, Bubba! -- www.ewoodshop.com
>
> I don't build-to-suit. I build what I love and if people want to buy it that is nice.
>
Eventually you will love to build other styles, as odd as they seem. I
started off building what the customer wanted, never have had any one
pass up what I built.
On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:49:14 -0700, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference.
> :-(
There are entirely too many people out there like that! Next time give
him a board with a recess routed in it and call it a picture frame. You
could even mount a picture of your table in it :-).
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday.
>
> His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.
>
> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?"
>
> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-(
>
I'm sorry to read your sad story. I like Sonny's idea--it may help him
appreciate what he had been given.
Bill in iN
On 10/1/2012 6:49 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as
> possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. ...
...
> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your
> stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch
> off of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they
> have an uneven floor?"
>
> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the
> difference. :-(
You doing art or trying to make a living from woodworking here?
--
On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 19:02:16 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
> And there are too many arrogant "woodworkers" here who think their
> opinions are what matters. Damned what the public may think about it..
And since I do it as a hobby, I can be as arrogant as I wish :-).
But yes, when I do something for someone who's paying for it, I either do
it their way or not at all.
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 19:02:16 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
> And there are too many arrogant "woodworkers" here who think their
> opinions are what matters. Damned what the public may think about it..
And since I do it as a hobby, I can be as arrogant as I wish :-).
But yes, when I do something for someone who's paying for it, I either do
it their way or not at all.
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 19:02:16 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
> And there are too many arrogant "woodworkers" here who think their
> opinions are what matters. Damned what the public may think about it..
And since I do it as a hobby, I can be as arrogant as I wish :-).
But yes, when I do something for someone who's paying for it, I either do
it their way or not at all.
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
On 10/2/2012 2:32 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 1, 2012 9:58:32 PM UTC-7, dpb wrote:
>> ...You doing art or trying to make a living from woodworking here?
>
> Today I do it for love. I love building this stuff. I do it as a
> side-job/hobby. If I can sell what I make it helps buy more wood and
> tools. I do sell most of what o build pretty quickly.
If it's for the personal satisfaction only you can tell 'em it's what it
is (not that you _can't_ otherwise; it's just a _very_ difficult
business model).
If one is in an actual business it's sometimes a hard lesson to swallow.
Years and years ago I moved from doing custom work of that sort also
as a sideline but w/ intention as young pup just out of school to make
some extra cash to the architectural stuff I've spoken of before in
Lynchburg, VA in large part because it was more fun to be able to
restore/repair/replace the excellent work found in those old houses than
it was to build the stuff that would sell (that was in my skill set of
the time, at least :) ).
As a popular bumper sticker here in SW KS farm country says, "Farming
without a profit motive is gardening". The sentiment has to hold for
any vocation--vision is nice but it may not pay the bills.
--
On 10/3/2012 12:03 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
...
> My original post was about how a dear and close friend does not have
> the same stylistic sensibilities as myself and I thought that was
> funny.
...
That you thought it was funny certainly didn't come thru...if had
thought that were the case I'd've not bothered w/ the response at all.
--
On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 20:48:03 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote:
> Damned Larry - you feel strongly about this - you posted it three times.
> I surrender...
Mutter, mumble, #$@% Comcast, grumble. Honest, I only posted it once :-).
--
When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and
carrying a cross.
On 10/3/2012 4:00 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 3, 2012 10:10:20 AM UTC-7, dpb wrote:
>> On 10/3/2012 12:03 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote: ...>
>...
> I spend hours and hours studying and doing an exact job thinking I
> have achieved some great pinnical of my craft....
To be somewhat pedantic--
Indeed, that is craft, not art. What art there is was in the original
creation, not in making a reproduction.
And, btw, it would be a "pinnacle" just to be complete. :)
--
SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday.
>
> His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.
>
> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?"
>
> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-(
>
I had forgotten you were genuinely in the business. I saw this at your
web site, associated with some of your kits:
"You are given the unfinished components with all of the complex milling
already completed, clear and extensive plans and step-by-step
instructions and all the necessary hardware. We also provide numerous
fool-proof finishing techniques and recipes that anyone can perform in
their home shop, garage or shed."
Maybe the friend you gifted your table to read that? I can understand a
little better how he might have been confused by your ambiguous attitude
now. Personally, FWIW, I have a lot of respect for your work!
Cheers,
Bill
On 10/3/2012 10:27 AM, dpb wrote:
> On 10/2/2012 2:32 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> On Monday, October 1, 2012 9:58:32 PM UTC-7, dpb wrote:
>>> ...You doing art or trying to make a living from woodworking here?
> As a popular bumper sticker here in SW KS farm country says, "Farming
> without a profit motive is gardening". The sentiment has to hold for
> any vocation--vision is nice but it may not pay the bills.
I figured about 2 people here earn their living from their wood shop.
One of them, and I felt sorry for him, was SonomaProducts. Now I find
out he earns his living otherwise, and does this stuff more as a hobby.
So I was off by about one, possibly two, and, since it's his hobby, I
don't have to feel sorry for him. In other words, about no one here is
a farmer, most are "just gardeners".
I've found over the years to only make what you want, not much else
unless it is for a very, very good friend, then do it for friendship,
not money. Few on earth can afford to pay me what I want to make
something I *want* to make, let alone something I *don't* want to make,
and also be dumb enough to pay that much. Those prices require artistic
perfection, something few attain.
How much is it worth to turn a hobby into work?
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 10/3/2012 3:33 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> I create
>> beautiful things in wood. I have pretty much sold everything I ever
>> offered for sale. I have tossed aside my failures. Not everyone will
>> love or even like what I do. I think of it like a pair of shoes. I
>> think most of them are ugly but somebody is buying them. I just buy
>> the ones I like. My art is offered in the same way.
>
> Then don't sell or give your "art" to people who will not respect your
> "artistry". You clearly think too much of yourself and not enough of
> others. Just build your stuff to satisfy yourself and don't burden the rest
> of the world with what they can't possibly understand. Build it, admire it
> and go to sleep at night patting yourself on your own back. Just quit
> bitching that others don't see it your way. You may do very nice work, but
> you sir, are no artist. An artist is concerned for what the viewer sees.
> You are only concerned for what you want them to see.
I think you are confused. A businessman may be concerned about what
others see, artists almost never care, and many do their life's work
unnoticed until long dead. Myself, I'm certainly not an artist, nor am
I a business man. I do woodwork for my own enjoyment, same reason I
like to program, or shoot pool, or take pictures. I don't do any of
these things for money, and don't particularly care who likes my stuff
besides me.
On the other hand, My daughter just got married and I made her an Irish
wedding goblet out of a gorgeous hunk of black walnut cut from a friends
yard years ago and sitting in my shop waiting for a special occasion.
It turned out pretty nice considering I haven't done much lathe work in
years but I was still hoping she liked it. She cried when she saw it
because I made it I guess. My buddy came in from out of town for the
wedding and when he saw the captured rings on the goblet, he reminded me
I made him a baby's rattle 35 years ago when his son was born with
captured rings, and he just gave it to his son for his new baby.
That's how "gardeners" gauge value, and when you want to take a custom
made wooden gift into the shower, you insult the gardener, when you
still have the gift 35 years later, and pass it down to your children,
you make the gardener smile, even when he is is a crotchety old man.
--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com
On 10/3/2012 5:04 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> Usnet standards? Piffle. I enjoy reading a lot and sharing a little. I was castigated a few times for
"top posting" which seemd more logical for me using my Google reader.
However, I stopped doing that
since it seemd to be a problem for old fashioned email reader types.
Piffle! Top posting, bottom posting and intertwined posting are all
correct, depending on the situation.
Other than that I never had any class on how to "comply" with usenet and
have no interest in doing so.
Common sense and courtesy are in order. Quoting giant messages with a
short bottom reply is ignorant. If your too dumb or lazy or ignorant to
properly edit a message, quoting what is needed, then at least top post
the drivel.
I am a free man and conduct myself so.
Wish I lived in your country:-)
--
Jack
Right Wing Extremist: Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Madison, ME!
http://jbstein.com
RonB wrote:
> Invariably someone sees one of them and asks the dreaded question:
> "How much would it cost for you to build one of those for me? I
> start off explaining that there is nearly $200 worth of hardwood and
> hardware in the horse. That is when I get that "over the top of the
> glasses look" and you can hear them thinking "This guy is getting
> ready to screw me."
Maybe just say you can make the horses for $750, or that you can provide
detailed instructions including a material list for $25.
Include a list of the required tools too.
To be nice, you can even offer to provide assistance over the phone if
they run into trouble.
Maybe if you tried eagerly to explain how they could build their own you
could close your sales faster! Perhaps don't even provide them a price
until they well understand exactly how they could build their own! : )
Good luck (and have fun)!
Bill
These people have no clue that with the cost of
> materials, even if I charged $500, I could make the big bucks shoving
> hamburgers across the counter at McDonald's.
>
> They don't have a clue.
>
> RonB
>
On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 16:20:31 -0400, Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>RonB wrote:
>
>>> RonB
>>
>> A couple of them are here:
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/27816715@N03/
>>
>
>They are beautiful! : )
+1. Wow, the figure in that walnut mane on #5 is just breathtaking.
--
Doctors prescribe medicine of which they know little,
to cure diseases of which they know less,
in human beings of which they know nothing.
--Francois-Marie Arouet Voltaire, about 250 years ago
On 10/5/2012 1:36 PM, RonB wrote:
> On Friday, October 5, 2012 11:10:49 AM UTC-5, RonB wrote:
>> On Thursday, October 4, 2012 8:01:13 PM UTC-5, Lew Hodgett wrote:
>>
>>> "RonB" wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> I have built several heavy rocking horses using contrasting
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> hardwoods. I spend 80-100 hours on each and I have seen some with
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> similar substance and features in the $500 and up price range. Two
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> of mine have gone to grandkids and one to the daughter of a good
>>
>>>
>>
>>>> friend. The other two have been donated to our church for raffles.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Invariably someone sees one of them and asks the dreaded question:
>>
>>>
>>
>>> "How much would it cost for you to build one of those for me?
>>
>>>
>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Normally the price is $1,000.00; however, if you are not in a hurry,
>>
>>>
>>
>>> could probably do one for $750 in about 6 months after receipt of a
>>
>>>
>>
>>> $500.00 advance deposit.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Keeps out the riff raff.
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> Lew
>>
>>
>>
>> Mine are not quite in that range. The carousel-type of carved horses do sell in the $1,500 and up (way up) range. Mine is a whimsical take-off of about three different patterns I picked up over the years plus about 1/3 my own design. I have a 16" x 44" x 2-1/2" slab of walnut in the garage now and I'm pretty sure it contains a horse body. Maple on the top row of my rack will make the rockers. Smaller chunks of cherry and Myrtle wood will do mane, tail and details. Just need to it get going.
>>
>>
>>
>> RonB
>
> A couple of them are here:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/27816715@N03/
>
Great work and superb wood and grain selection!
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 19:04:32 -0400, "Mike Marlow"
>And... when I had a custom built guitar built, I selected the wood. It was
>the wood that I liked. Not what the luthier liked, or what anyone else may
>have liked or not liked. It was my money, and my desires. Why do guys here
>think that their preferences are ordained? It's what the customer wants.
>Sheese...
We all aspire to be the valued artist ~ the one that gets paid $$$ for
whatever we make and no matter how it turns out.
On 10/2/2012 6:04 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> tiredofspam wrote:
>> On 10/1/2012 7:57 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
>>> On Mon, 01 Oct 2012 16:49:14 -0700, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the
>>>> difference. :-(
>>>
>>> There are entirely too many people out there like that! Next time
>>> give him a board with a recess routed in it and call it a picture
>>> frame. You could even mount a picture of your table in it :-).
>>>
>>
>> Along the same lines, I built something with beautiful highly figured
>> wood and gave it as a house warming gift to a friend and his wife.
>>
>> She said, didn't you have any better wood. I explained that the
>> beautiful figure was highly prized and treasured. She said it would be
>> better if it were just plain brown.
>
> And... when I had a custom built guitar built, I selected the wood. It was
> the wood that I liked. Not what the luthier liked, or what anyone else may
> have liked or not liked. It was my money, and my desires. Why do guys here
> think that their preferences are ordained? It's what the customer wants.
> Sheese...
>
Cant you read MIKE?????? It was a freaking GIFT!!!!
YOU DO NOT look a gift horse in the mouth.
On 10/5/2012 1:36 PM, RonB wrote:
> On Friday, October 5, 2012 11:10:49 AM UTC-5, RonB wrote:
>>>> I have built several heavy rocking horses using contrasting
> A couple of them are here:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/27816715@N03/
Absolute heirlooms, which are guaranteed to one day be priceless ...
they are beautiful!
--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop
"SonomaProducts.com" <[email protected]> wrote:
>I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday.
>
>His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.
>
>Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?"
>
>Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-(
Keep in mind that the whole Arts & Crafts (Stickley) thing was
supposed to be about simple functionality. A stool is meant to be
used, not admired in an art gallery.
Whack off a leg instead of an inch. Three legs will be stable on that
uneven floor.
On 10/2/2012 2:30 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
> On Monday, October 1, 2012 5:11:18 PM UTC-7, Swingman wrote:
>> "SonomaProducts.com"<[email protected]> wrote:> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as> possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a run of> very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something you might use> as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an oil finish (tried> and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give one to a dear friend for his birthday.> > His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I help> them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet environment.> > Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your> stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch off> of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they have an uneven floor?"> > Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the difference. :-( Welcome to the world of discerning craftsmen operating in an increasingly fickle
culture. To make a living at it, you must give the customer what they want, and not reason why ... whack away, Bubba! -- www.ewoodshop.com
>
> I don't build-to-suit. I build what I love and if people want to buy it that is nice.
BIG plus 1
On 10/2/2012 6:00 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> SonomaProducts.com wrote:
>> I spend hours getting my Stickley reproduction designs as exact as
>> possible, measuring from eBay photos and Stickley catlogs. I did a
>> run of very small round tables, in Cherry (not classic). Something
>> you might use as a plant stand. I exercise exacting detail. I did an
>> oil finish (tried and true) that took a few weeks to complete. I give
>> one to a dear friend for his birthday.
>>
>> His wife says "Hey great, we can use it as a stool in the shower!" I
>> help them understand maybe it won't hold up to the use in a wet
>> environment.
>>
>> Now a few weeks later I get an email. "Hey I want to give one of your
>> stools to a friend. Do you have another one? Could you whack an inch
>> off of the legs and add some adjusters to the bottom in-case they
>> have an uneven floor?"
>>
>> Maybe I can get him something from Ikea. He won't know the
>> difference. :-(
>
> Yeahbut - they liked your work. What more can you ask for? One thing you
> have to remember is that when you make something for someone, it is their
> eye that beholds the beauty - not yours. It's hard to let go of a baby, but
> if you can't take their value of your work, then don't give your work away.
> What is really wrong in what they asked?...
>
Totally agree with letting the customer have what he or she wants. Put
yourself in their shoes. But on the contrary, I do not have a problem
letting go of a piece no matter how nice it is, I would rather have the
money in my pocket. I can always build it again for myself if I want it
that badly.