I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)
FoggyTown
On Jul 28, 6:50 pm, FoggyTown <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
> night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
> I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
> screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
> either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
> then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
> dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)
>
> FoggyTown
Dowels are cool...but require clamps.
Screws are quick and one can hide the head with a plug.
Your call. (I use both.)
I have found, however, that smaller spindles work better with dowels.
There is a smaller chance of splitting the wood.
On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you are.
>
> Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
> On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
> unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.
>
Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
& crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
make it so the plug is visible.
I guess the question I wanted to ask was, everything else being equal,
is a dowel as strong as a screw?
FoggyTown
On Jul 30, 5:19?am, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
> Wade Lippman wrote:
>
> > "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in messagenews:[email protected]...
> >> Toller wrote:
> >>> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>news:[email protected]...
> >>>> On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>> Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy
> >>>>> you are.
>
> >>>>> Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
> >>>>> On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
> >>>>> unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your
> >>>>> plug.
>
> >>>> Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
> >>>> & crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
> >>>> coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
> >>>> I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
> >>>> make it so the plug is visible.
>
> >>> I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no
> >>> furniture features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply
> >>> ugly.
> >> ...
>
> >> You might tell that to Sam Maloof and let him know he's been wrong all
> >> these years... :)
>
> >> "There are many places in my furniture where a dowel or
> >> mortise-and-tenon joint just does not work because of the thinness of
> >> the wood; so I use screws. In effect the screw is a metal dowel. I am
> >> not a purist. .... I have no qualms about this."
>
> >> --from Sam Maloof, Woodworker.
>
> >> "...as an example, it's nothing more than an end grain to long grain
> >> glued joint, drilled through the rail with 3- to 4-inch screws pulling
> >> it tight. Then the screws are just plugged over with a rosewood or
> >> ebony plug for contrast. ..."
>
> >> From Gary in KC, from having taken one of his classes on chairmaking...
>
> > Should I see him I will tell him. Although the are likely to be unusual
> > instances to the contrary, plugs are ugly.
> > "If you can't make it attractive, make it conspicuously ugly"?
Thank you for your opinion. That IS all it was, right?
> Makes me wonder if you know who Maloof is???
>
> --- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Makes me wonder if anyone in here knows what "arts & crafts" is.
Gothic revival? Medieval revival? One of the basic features is NO
MECHANICAL FASTENINGS.
FoggyTown
On Jul 30, 2:57?pm, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 02:42:39 -0700, FoggyTown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >Makes me wonder if anyone in here knows what "arts & crafts" is.
> >Gothic revival? Medieval revival? One of the basic features is NO
> >MECHANICAL FASTENINGS.
>
> >FoggyTown
>
> I think that you've just answered your own question... unless dowels are
> considered Mechanical Fasteners..
>
> mac
>
No, a dowel is not a mechanical fastener. Screws, nails, brads,
clips, etc. are.
Let me try restate the question.
In a project where screws would normally (and acceptably) be used to
attach one piece of wood to another, is there anything lost (i.e. in
strength or structural integrity) in using glued dowels instead of
screws?
FoggyTown
On Jul 29, 8:26 am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no furniture
> features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
>
I have quite a few pieces of Stickley which have, in addition to
exposed tenons, visible tenon-pin dowel ends, some of which are of
contrasting wood. Also some with visible dowel pins in corbels. All of
these dowel ends are prominent - no attempt was made to match grain.
It's a feature of A&C furniture.
On Jul 31, 3:28?pm, "Wade Lippman" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Let's see...anyone else you want to add to the list of woodworking idiots?
> > We've already got Maloof and Stickley. Wanna add Krenov and Klausz just
> > to round it out? You know, Klausz uses *gasp* white glue to assemble his
> > furniture. What a moron!
>
> They are hardly idiots! They make mismatched furniture and convince you it
> is fabulous.
> But all this is just a fun tangent.
>
> Arts and Crafts simply doesn't feature conspicuous plugs. The fact that
> Maloof might use them in some circumstances is hardly authorization for the
> rest of us to disregard what looks good.
>
So you are presuming to speak for everybody on this subject? Tell me,
how do I feel about Iraq? Pickup trucks?
> Large natural emeralds are worth many times the value of large synthetic
> emeralds. You know how you tell them apart? By examining them under
> microscopes. If you can find a defect, however small, they are natural; if
> perfect, synthetic. Otherwise they are indestinquishable. That makes a lot
> of sense. Naturally, they are working to put defects in sythetic stones, so new tests
> are being developed.
What in God's name are you babbling about?
FoggyTown
dpb wrote:
> Makes me wonder if you know who Maloof is???
>
Ain't Maloof that old guy who can't cut a straight line, so he earns his
living making rocking chairs for his wife?
<said with a straight face>
Bill
8-)
--
I'm not not at the above address.
http://nmwoodworks.com
---
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Virus Database (VPS): 000762-1, 07/30/2007
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FoggyTown wrote:
> In a project where screws would normally (and acceptably) be used to
> attach one piece of wood to another, is there anything lost (i.e. in
> strength or structural integrity) in using glued dowels instead of
> screws?
It's certainly possible. Screws are metal, and have higher strength/size.
It's possible to invent scenarios where screws would hold better than
dowels, because dowels of sufficient strength would not actually fit in
the space required.
Chris
"FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
> night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
> I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
> screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
> either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
> then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
> dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)
>
> FoggyTown
>
Lots of argument to and fro on this, but surely the answer is...
"What would Norm do?"
> I have quite a few pieces of Stickley which have, in addition to
> exposed tenons, visible tenon-pin dowel ends, some of which are of
> contrasting wood. Also some with visible dowel pins in corbels. All of
> these dowel ends are prominent - no attempt was made to match grain.
> It's a feature of A&C furniture.
There is also a difference between a pin and a plug. A pin is a structural
component with the grain oriented *through* the cylinder, intended to
provide sheer resitance to pullout of a tennon. A plug is a cross-gram
cosmetic cap used to cover a structural component (screw).
You cant "match" the grain on a pin because it is, by definition, in the
wrong orientation.
I believe that the OP intended to use dowels as a loose tennon rather than
to pin a (not loose) tennon.
Steve
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
"FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Let me try restate the question.
>
> In a project where screws would normally (and acceptably) be used to
> attach one piece of wood to another, is there anything lost (i.e. in
> strength or structural integrity) in using glued dowels instead of
> screws?
>
Removal resistance. The dowel does just fine in shear, but pullout is about
nil.
"Wade Lippman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Jul 29, 8:26 am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> > On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no
>>> furniture
>>> features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
>>>
>>
>> I have quite a few pieces of Stickley which have, in addition to
>> exposed tenons, visible tenon-pin dowel ends, some of which are of
>> contrasting wood. Also some with visible dowel pins in corbels. All of
>> these dowel ends are prominent - no attempt was made to match grain.
>> It's a feature of A&C furniture.
>>
> Right, and poor handling is a feature of the Ford Focus I rented last
> week.
> All that matters is that you are happy with the poorly made furniture.
Let's see...anyone else you want to add to the list of woodworking idiots?
We've already got Maloof and Stickley. Wanna add Krenov and Klausz just to
round it out? You know, Klausz uses *gasp* white glue to assemble his
furniture. What a moron!
todd
"George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "
>
> Removal resistance. The dowel does just fine in shear, but pullout is
> about nil.
I'll have to disagree with that statement if the dowel is glued in.
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> George wrote:
>>
>> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Removal resistance. The dowel does just fine in shear, but pullout is
>> about nil.
>
> That depends on grain orientation -- if it isn't cross grain, there's a
> pretty good area for glue joint which isn't 'nil'. Although I've never
> done a calibrated test, in end grain which where the dowel would have the
> most long-long grain, the screw might not have any more holding power, if
> as much, knowing that they'll tend to pull out of end grain...
>
> Would be an interesting test just out of curiousity...
>
It's been done. See Hoadly on differential wood movement along the grain of
the dowel and the wood which encloses it. Unless you've got the perfect
grain match, it'll work loose from the glue as time passes, the wood cycles
and the glue becomes more brittle.
> Let's see...anyone else you want to add to the list of woodworking idiots?
> We've already got Maloof and Stickley. Wanna add Krenov and Klausz just
> to round it out? You know, Klausz uses *gasp* white glue to assemble his
> furniture. What a moron!
>
They are hardly idiots! They make mismatched furniture and convince you it
is fabulous.
But all this is just a fun tangent.
Arts and Crafts simply doesn't feature conspicuous plugs. The fact that
Maloof might use them in some circumstances is hardly authorization for the
rest of us to disregard what looks good.
Large natural emeralds are worth many times the value of large synthetic
emeralds. You know how you tell them apart? By examining them under
microscopes. If you can find a defect, however small, they are natural; if
perfect, synthetic. Otherwise they are indestinquishable. That makes a lot
of sense.
Naturally, they are working to put defects in sythetic stones, so new tests
are being developed.
"FoggyTown" wrote in message
> Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
> & crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
> coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
> I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
> make it so the plug is visible.
Are you certain those visible components were not "pinned" M&T joints?
> I guess the question I wanted to ask was, everything else being equal,
> is a dowel as strong as a screw?
That depends ... what type of join/joint are you planning on using a screw?
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
"dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Toller wrote:
>> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you
>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>> Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
>>>> On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
>>>> unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your
>>>> plug.
>>>>
>>> Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
>>> & crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
>>> coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
>>> I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
>>> make it so the plug is visible.
>>
>> I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no
>> furniture features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
> ...
>
> You might tell that to Sam Maloof and let him know he's been wrong all
> these years... :)
>
> "There are many places in my furniture where a dowel or
> mortise-and-tenon joint just does not work because of the thinness of
> the wood; so I use screws. In effect the screw is a metal dowel. I am
> not a purist. .... I have no qualms about this."
>
> --from Sam Maloof, Woodworker.
>
> "...as an example, it's nothing more than an end grain to long grain glued
> joint, drilled through the rail with 3- to 4-inch screws pulling it tight.
> Then the screws are just plugged over with a rosewood or ebony plug for
> contrast. ..."
>
> From Gary in KC, from having taken one of his classes on chairmaking...
>
Should I see him I will tell him. Although the are likely to be unusual
instances to the contrary, plugs are ugly.
"If you can't make it attractive, make it conspicuously ugly"?
"FoggyTown" wrote in message
> I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
> night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
> I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
> screws as much as possible.
If you really want to adhere to the "principles" of "arts and crafts style",
neither ... traditional mortise and tenon is the way to go, especially for
the larger pieces.
There are some good books out on making Arts and Crafts pieces, the "Shop
Drawing" series by Robert Lang is a good place to get a sense of traditional
construction for this style.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
FoggyTown wrote:
> Makes me wonder if anyone in here knows what "arts & crafts" is.
> Gothic revival? Medieval revival? One of the basic features is NO
> MECHANICAL FASTENINGS.
I don't know about the fastenings but one characteristic ala Stickey
was exposed joinery. Dowels aren't "exposed joinery".
--
dadiOH
____________________________
dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
...a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico
"FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
> night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
> I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
> screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
> either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
> then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
> dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)
>
Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you are.
Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.
I use pocket screws where they can't be seen, but wouldn't consider using a
screw with a plug where it could be seen.
I only use dowels when biscuits or pocket screws aren't possible. But once
I get my domino...!
"FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jul 30, 2:57?pm, mac davis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 02:42:39 -0700, FoggyTown <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >Makes me wonder if anyone in here knows what "arts & crafts" is.
> > >Gothic revival? Medieval revival? One of the basic features is NO
> > >MECHANICAL FASTENINGS.
> >
> > >FoggyTown
> >
> > I think that you've just answered your own question... unless dowels are
> > considered Mechanical Fasteners..
> >
> > mac
> >
>
> No, a dowel is not a mechanical fastener. Screws, nails, brads,
> clips, etc. are.
>
> Let me try restate the question.
>
> In a project where screws would normally (and acceptably) be used to
> attach one piece of wood to another, is there anything lost (i.e. in
> strength or structural integrity) in using glued dowels instead of
> screws?
Dowels get my vote, but it may be irrelevant since the joint that is the
result of the use either will usually be stronger than the surrounding
material.
There is a world of information on the use of various fasteners in wood
available on the www. Check here for starters:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1987/soltis87a.pdf
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
RE: Subject
Disclaimer:
I build "Brick Outhouses", not "Fine Furniture".
Use dowels to pin corner box joints on boat hatches and M/T joints on
furniture.
Do my best to avoid either dowels or fasteners; however, if required,
use S/S, coarse thread, sheet metal, self tapping screws followed by
plugs in typical yacht fashion. (Yes, keep a plug cutter handy)
Lew
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jul 29, 8:26 am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no
>> furniture
>> features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
>>
>
> I have quite a few pieces of Stickley which have, in addition to
> exposed tenons, visible tenon-pin dowel ends, some of which are of
> contrasting wood. Also some with visible dowel pins in corbels. All of
> these dowel ends are prominent - no attempt was made to match grain.
> It's a feature of A&C furniture.
>
Right, and poor handling is a feature of the Ford Focus I rented last week.
All that matters is that you are happy with the poorly made furniture.
mac davis <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:
<snip>
> And there must be some reason that they sell dowels in cherry, oak,
> etc...
>
> http://www.atlasdowel.com/spmatdowels.htm
>
because people buy them? Folks will buy almost anything.
What else explains Gary Knox Bennett?
Patriarch
"dpb" wrote in message
> Given the tensile strength of steel, it would take a very large dowel to
> exceed it from a purely mechanical viewpoint. The screw will almost
> invariably pull from the wood by the wood failing long before the screw
> itself will fail.
Food for thought:
Old timey, wooden shutter frames around here were often made with M&T joints
(one side, top and bottom, purposely unglued to facilitate replacing the
shutters) and with a screw countersunk into the edge of the shutter frame
and driven directly into the end grain of the tenons.
The screw hole was plugged to keep out the elements, but could be drilled
out later if/when it eventually came time to replace the shutter slats.
It made for a helluva strong joint on big window shutters, even without
glue.
Haven't seen them made that way in a long time, but it was once a common
method in this part of the country.
As it is a very similar principle, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that was
where old Sam got his idea for screwing his chair joints together?
There's not much new under the sun.
:)
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
Toller wrote:
> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you
>>> are.
>>>
>>> Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
>>> On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
>>> unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.
>>>
>> Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
>> & crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
>> coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
>> I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
>> make it so the plug is visible.
>
> I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no furniture
> features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
...
You might tell that to Sam Maloof and let him know he's been wrong all
these years... :)
"There are many places in my furniture where a dowel or
mortise-and-tenon joint just does not work because of the thinness of
the wood; so I use screws. In effect the screw is a metal dowel. I am
not a purist. .... I have no qualms about this."
--from Sam Maloof, Woodworker.
"...as an example, it's nothing more than an end grain to long grain
glued joint, drilled through the rail with 3- to 4-inch screws pulling
it tight. Then the screws are just plugged over with a rosewood or ebony
plug for contrast. ..."
From Gary in KC, from having taken one of his classes on chairmaking...
--
Wade Lippman wrote:
>
> "dpb" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> Toller wrote:
>>> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy
>>>>> you are.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
>>>>> On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
>>>>> unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your
>>>>> plug.
>>>>>
>>>> Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
>>>> & crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
>>>> coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
>>>> I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
>>>> make it so the plug is visible.
>>>
>>> I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no
>>> furniture features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply
>>> ugly.
>> ...
>>
>> You might tell that to Sam Maloof and let him know he's been wrong all
>> these years... :)
>>
>> "There are many places in my furniture where a dowel or
>> mortise-and-tenon joint just does not work because of the thinness of
>> the wood; so I use screws. In effect the screw is a metal dowel. I am
>> not a purist. .... I have no qualms about this."
>>
>> --from Sam Maloof, Woodworker.
>>
>> "...as an example, it's nothing more than an end grain to long grain
>> glued joint, drilled through the rail with 3- to 4-inch screws pulling
>> it tight. Then the screws are just plugged over with a rosewood or
>> ebony plug for contrast. ..."
>>
>> From Gary in KC, from having taken one of his classes on chairmaking...
>>
> Should I see him I will tell him. Although the are likely to be unusual
> instances to the contrary, plugs are ugly.
> "If you can't make it attractive, make it conspicuously ugly"?
Makes me wonder if you know who Maloof is???
--
Chris Friesen wrote:
> FoggyTown wrote:
>
>> In a project where screws would normally (and acceptably) be used to
>> attach one piece of wood to another, is there anything lost (i.e. in
>> strength or structural integrity) in using glued dowels instead of
>> screws?
>
> It's certainly possible. Screws are metal, and have higher strength/size.
>
> It's possible to invent scenarios where screws would hold better than
> dowels, because dowels of sufficient strength would not actually fit in
> the space required.
That, of course, is the precise reason Maloof uses screws many places he
does...
Given the tensile strength of steel, it would take a very large dowel to
exceed it from a purely mechanical viewpoint. The screw will almost
invariably pull from the wood by the wood failing long before the screw
itself will fail.
That said, in most situations well-fitted long-to-long grain glue joints
will be nearly as strong as the wood itself. Dowels can be used to
increase glue area or for alignment. In most cases, it's the extra area
that adds strength over the joint without them when there is added
strength or they add the cross grain breaking resistance where otherwise
there might only be a _relatively_ narrow long grain which could break
along the grain (and not necessarily or even likely at the glue joint
itself).
--
dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
: That, of course, is the precise reason Maloof uses screws many places he
: does...
Yes, although ironically he uses drywall screws.
-- Andy Barss
Andrew Barss wrote:
> dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : That, of course, is the precise reason Maloof uses screws many places he
> : does...
>
>
> Yes, although ironically he uses drywall screws.
>
> -- Andy Barss
At least initially...like anything else he does, I think he's pretty
pragmatic -- before deep thread thin shank wood screws other than
drywall screws were very common, they were about the only choice w/o a
real specialty search...
--
Swingman wrote:
> "dpb" wrote in message
>
>> Given the tensile strength of steel, it would take a very large dowel
>> to exceed it from a purely mechanical viewpoint. The screw will
>> almost invariably pull from the wood by the wood failing long before
>> the screw itself will fail.
>
> Food for thought:
>
> Old timey, wooden shutter frames around here were often made with M&T
> joints (one side, top and bottom, purposely unglued to facilitate
> replacing the shutters) and with a screw countersunk into the edge of
> the shutter frame and driven directly into the end grain of the tenons.
>
> The screw hole was plugged to keep out the elements, but could be
> drilled out later if/when it eventually came time to replace the shutter
> slats.
>
> It made for a helluva strong joint on big window shutters, even without
> glue.
>
> Haven't seen them made that way in a long time, but it was once a common
> method in this part of the country.
>
> As it is a very similar principle, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that
> was where old Sam got his idea for screwing his chair joints together?
>
> There's not much new under the sun.
Yeah, all the windows on the old barn use pins (essentially a 16d cut to
length) for the same purpose. If need to make a new bottom rail, for
example, just drive them on through, take it apart and do whatever...
I think the impetus for SM was that his pieces were simply too thin and
he had a long vs end grain joint that wouldn't hold at all w/o a
fastener. Being self-taught, he didn't know any better that he wasn't
supposed to do that. Since they worked and lasted, it became his
standard technique...
--
George wrote:
>
> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Let me try restate the question.
>>
>> In a project where screws would normally (and acceptably) be used to
>> attach one piece of wood to another, is there anything lost (i.e. in
>> strength or structural integrity) in using glued dowels instead of
>> screws?
>>
>
> Removal resistance. The dowel does just fine in shear, but pullout is
> about nil.
That depends on grain orientation -- if it isn't cross grain, there's a
pretty good area for glue joint which isn't 'nil'. Although I've never
done a calibrated test, in end grain which where the dowel would have
the most long-long grain, the screw might not have any more holding
power, if as much, knowing that they'll tend to pull out of end grain...
Would be an interesting test just out of curiousity...
--
todd wrote:
...
> Let's see...anyone else you want to add to the list of woodworking idiots?
> We've already got Maloof and Stickley. Wanna add Krenov and Klausz just to
> round it out? You know, Klausz uses *gasp* white glue to assemble his
> furniture. What a moron!
You meant "maroon" of course, I presume? :)
--
Dave Gordon wrote:
> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'm starting to construct larger pieces (chests, display cabinets,
>> night stands, etc.) and I very much like the "arts and crafts" style.
>> I would prefer adhering to those principles and use dowels instead of
>> screws as much as possible. But I don't want to ignore practicality
>> either. Would I be better off using screws which are countersunk and
>> then hide the heads with plugs? (This would, of course, be totally
>> dependent on the dynamics of the attachment point in question.)
>>
>> FoggyTown
>>
> Lots of argument to and fro on this, but surely the answer is...
>
> "What would Norm do?"
:)
Brads, of course--(but only until the glue dries)...
--
"dpb" wrote in message
> Makes me wonder if you know who Maloof is???
First, you have to remember where he lives, that his pieces are considered
"art", that "promotion" is a big part of success in that genre (I personally
prefer Moser's less publicized/promoted work), and that he reportedly once
admitted that he started using screws out of ignorance of other joinery
techniques. :)
As much as I admire his work, and certainly not to detract from what he
does, but if I wanted a "furniture joinery guru" to emulate, I think I'd go
with Klausz.
--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 6/1/07
KarlC@ (the obvious)
On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 09:39:08 -0500, dpb <[email protected]> wrote:
>Toller wrote:
>> "FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you
>>>> are.
>>>>
>>>> Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
>>>> On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
>>>> unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.
>>>>
>>> Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
>>> & crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
>>> coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
>>> I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
>>> make it so the plug is visible.
>>
>> I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no furniture
>> features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
>...
>
>You might tell that to Sam Maloof and let him know he's been wrong all
>these years... :)
>
And there must be some reason that they sell dowels in cherry, oak, etc...
http://www.atlasdowel.com/spmatdowels.htm
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 03:42:02 -0400, [email protected] (Jerry -
OHIO) wrote:
> I have a 50 lb. box of dry wall screws so you know what I use.
Really shouldn't use drywall screws for joinery, too brittle.
-Leuf
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 02:42:39 -0700, FoggyTown <[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>
>Makes me wonder if anyone in here knows what "arts & crafts" is.
>Gothic revival? Medieval revival? One of the basic features is NO
>MECHANICAL FASTENINGS.
>
>FoggyTown
I think that you've just answered your own question... unless dowels are
considered Mechanical Fasteners..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:14:42 -0700, FoggyTown <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I think that you've just answered your own question... unless dowels are
>> considered Mechanical Fasteners..
>>
>> mac
>>
>
>No, a dowel is not a mechanical fastener. Screws, nails, brads,
>clips, etc. are.
>
>Let me try restate the question.
>
>In a project where screws would normally (and acceptably) be used to
>attach one piece of wood to another, is there anything lost (i.e. in
>strength or structural integrity) in using glued dowels instead of
>screws?
>
>FoggyTown
>
Well, let me do the usual disclaimer that I'm not an expert, for sure...
It would seem to me that a well fitted dowel with grooves for glue flow would be
stronger than a screw in most cases....
The main advantage to a dowel or biscuit, IMO, is the increase in gluing area...
because if the joint fails, screws aren't going to help much...
I've done test joints with biscuits and then taken them apart a week later... In
every case I had to break the joint before the biscuit let go..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
"FoggyTown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Jul 29, 3:15?am, "Toller" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Depends upon (among other things) how good you are, and how fussy you
>> are.
>>
>> Dowels require precise fits; screws are much less demanding.
>> On the other hand, dowels are invisible, but screws are pretty obvious
>> unless you do an incredible job of matching color and grain on your plug.
>>
>
> Ooooo . . . no, no, no! You misunderstand me. I have seen many arts
> & crafts pieces where the dowels are an actual feature - either by
> coloration, grain orientation or protrusion. Hiding them is something
> I do NOT want to do. Even if a screwed joint is necessary, I would
> make it so the plug is visible.
I expect you are mistaken. They often have exposed tenons, but no furniture
features conspicuous plugs or dowels. Are are are simply ugly.
>
> I guess the question I wanted to ask was, everything else being equal,
> is a dowel as strong as a screw?
Dowels are more rigid than screws, but screws will hold even if a joint is
busted. Does that make them stronger or weaker?
Years ago I built a rather shoddy TV stand out of scrap, always wondered how
strong it was. When I replaced it with something nicer, I tested it.
With 300 pounds of weight on it the glued joints gave way, but I actually
had to hit it repeatedly sideways with a sledge hammer to get it to fail for
the nails.
(I haven't used a nail, except to hold a back on, for a while now)
>
> FoggyTown
>