3rd RFD: rec.woodworking.all-ages (was: rec.woodworking.moderated)

In article <[email protected]>, patrick conroy
<[email protected]> wrote:

> How can something as inexhaustible as "participation in an internet
> newsgroup" become diluted by another newsgroup? More power to them -
> if it's any good, I'll join. If it's better, I'll switch.

IMO the problem with the proposal is that it's simply a duplication of
the namespace with no mechanism to enforce the proposed "all-ages" part
of the proposal.

If they had stayed with the moderated proposal and found a group of
moderators that could be trusted I would have voted yes. As it stands,
the proposal makes no sense.

djb

In article <[email protected]>, patrick conroy
<[email protected]> wrote:

> But, why just not let the market decide?
> If the new newsgroup sucks, it will wither and die, right?

No, it will just whither. There's virtually no acceptable mechanism for
removing a newsgroup once it's been created, so the appropriate time to
do that is in the voting process.

The point of the RFD anc CFV process is for the proponent(s) of the new
group to lobby for support and build a consensus that the new group is
needed and will add something of value to usenet on its creation.

The proponents of this CFV have done the opposite, and now appear to be
actively avoiding any discussion.

As a result, creating the new group is unlikely to add any value.

I was seriously considering voting in favor of the mooderated proposal,
had the proponents put together a viable moderation team. They failed
to do so, and then pulled the moderation from their proposal. At that
point, the new group simply became an attempted duplication of the
existing wreck under a new name. No redeeming features whatsoever.

That's why I voted no.

In article <[email protected]>, LRod
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Unfortunately, once the new newsgroup is determined to suck and the
> traffic withers and dies the mechanism stays forever and irretrievably
> in place, taking up cyberspace for no good reason.

And continues to confuse new people, who will have none of the history
as to why the whithered group was created in the first place.

If the proponents had had the balls to stick to their moderated group
proposal and address the concerns raised about the abilities and
stability of the moderation team and mechanisms I probably would have
voted yes.

I told one of the proponents that in an email that never got a reply.

Why are they afraid to confront criticism and address it?

The proposal doesn't deserve a yes vote, IMO, for just those reasons.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:58:00 -0700, Brian Mailman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>patriarch < wrote:
>
>> Brian Mailman <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> Luigi Zanasi wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you don't like that, you could set up a mirror of rec.woodworking,
>>>> something like the following web site, and you could delete any post
>>>> you object to and moderate it to your heart's content.
>>>
>>> I would object mightily if I knew any posting I made in any group were
>>> being redirected.
>
>> So what do you think of Google Groups?
>
>I don't know much about them. Do you mean the web interface to Usenet?
>Then that's fine, if someone is happy with that kind of kludge. I'm
>talking about redirecting to a web site. I'm not saying you shouldn't
>(you-all) but I'd be uncomfortable with it.
>
>B/


when you post to rec.woodworking your words are redirected to a
website called groups.google.com and archived. this is *exactly* what
you were talking about....

April 1st late this year?

--

Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
[email protected]

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:16:12 -0500, Conan the Librarian
<[email protected]> wrote:

........


>
> The Central Scrutinizer



shoulda guessed you would be a FZ fan...

"Beej-in-GA" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> "Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote in
> message news:210920041507073168%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca...
>> In article <[email protected]>, Larry Jaques
>> <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Great Googly Moogly! It's better than eating yellow snow.
>>
>> And destined to take the place of the Mud Shark in your mythology!
>
> At St. Alfonso's Pancake Breakfast?! Was it you who stole the
> Margereen?!
>
>

Is that a real table saw, or a Sears table saw?

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 22:37:13 -0400, [email protected] wrote:

>
>rubbernecking at the wreck -
>
... snip

>
>7. what *would* be helpful, would be some
>compendiums of posts and FAQs which would
>create an 'institutional memory bank' which would
>be valuable to draw on...
>

You have a good point. groups.google.com is a useful utility for this
given that you know the keywords to search. Many topics have been
discussed many times in this forum, not discussing "how to stain cherry"
again would be a blessing. The number of times a subject has been
discussed can also be a problem because a query can return an overwhelming
abundance of matches (just try typing *anything* into a straight google
search without getting 10's of thousands of hits).

One of the real problems with this (and I am running into the same thing
in my work life) is *how* to organize and configure such a "lessons
learned" or "institutional memory" that is a) readily accessible and b)
easily useable. If it is not easy to use, people won't use it, especially
if it is easier to ask the question again (or, as at work, easier just to
repeat the lessons of the past :-( )

Some ideas, maybe something organized along subject lines? e.g.
faq.joinery, faq.tablesawpurchases, etc? Rather than trying to include
every discussion ever generated on a subject, distill all discussions into
common opinions? for example: Staining: pro, con?

Just some general ramblings but some ramblings that seem to have more
potential for actual utility than the initiation of a new group to hold the
same discussions.


>just my observations of a molehill being bulldozed
>into an unnecessary mountain...
>
>charley
>
>eof
>

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 05:04:45 GMT, patriarch
<<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:1095913197.oZcIru5CrOuneO8mlS+UVQ@teranews:
>
><snip>
>> Some ideas, maybe something organized along subject lines? e.g.
>> faq.joinery, faq.tablesawpurchases, etc? Rather than trying to
>> include every discussion ever generated on a subject, distill all
>> discussions into common opinions? for example: Staining: pro, con?
>>
>It would take some leadership, and, dare I say it, a moderator?
>
>And since there is no Cabal....
>
>Darn fine idea, though. Could be workable.
>

Thanks. Couple other thoughts, and this is why this is such a tricky
problem, the example of above for staining can become multi-dimensional
very quickly. After pro, con, you then have various staining methods for
different types of wood, also, different product types and application
methods, some within the sub-categories, others common to all
sub-categories. [i.e, this isn't a trivial task]

>Patriarch,
>thinking of the hardware store that advertises 'the answers are out there.'
>Some of ours are 'way out there'.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:12:41 -0700, Mark & Juanita <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 05:04:45 GMT, patriarch
><<patriarch>[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Mark & Juanita <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:1095913197.oZcIru5CrOuneO8mlS+UVQ@teranews:
>>
>><snip>
>>> Some ideas, maybe something organized along subject lines? e.g.
>>> faq.joinery, faq.tablesawpurchases, etc? Rather than trying to
>>> include every discussion ever generated on a subject, distill all
>>> discussions into common opinions? for example: Staining: pro, con?
>>>
>>It would take some leadership, and, dare I say it, a moderator?
>>
>>And since there is no Cabal....
>>
>>Darn fine idea, though. Could be workable.
>>
>
> Thanks. Couple other thoughts, and this is why this is such a tricky
>problem, the example of above for staining can become multi-dimensional
>very quickly. After pro, con, you then have various staining methods for
>different types of wood, also, different product types and application
>methods, some within the sub-categories, others common to all
>sub-categories. [i.e, this isn't a trivial task]
>

After having had a night to think this over, maybe something like this
is a do-able project. What if this were a collaborative effort rather than
any single person? Based upon some level of group consensus, a subject
matter expert could be appointed (volunteer) for each of the topical faq's.
That person would be responsible for researching the archives on the
particular subject for which they volunteered. Then, rather than simply
compiling all questions and answers, would compile a distillation of
discussions on the particular subject to which they had been assigned.
That person would further be responsible for keeping up that particular
subject until they no longer were able or desired to be replaced. The idea
would be to compile comments, not to be expected to put this together based
solely upon their own knowledge/opinions. (For example, if Larry J were
assigned the finish faq, he would have to include information and
discussion on dyeing and staining wood, not just say "don't do it").

What would make this more helpful would be to have a person who would
coordinate all of the faq's and maintain a listing of the available faqs.
Again, the person who would do this would be arrived at by group consensus
and expressed willingness to underake this effort. This approach would
most likely work best as a web-based system vs. purely text-based Usenet.
Maybe something along the lines of how Open Source projects are
coordinated, as well as using similar tools could be employed. What I'm
thinking of here is a "master web page" somewhere that points to all of the
faqs (faq here may be a misnomer, I think the individual elements would be
more akin to an anthology of discussions or topical commentaries), arranged
in an easily understandable and readable format. Pointers to
anthology-building and source control tools could also be contained on the
page. The links could either be to anthologies on the master web page, if
a hosting service could be found to support this, or point to web pages
held or owned by the contributing editors of each of the anthologies.

Some means of archiving and mirroring each of the contributions would
need to be devised, again, the Open Source project model would seem to be
applicable. A succession process would need to be developed to allow
change of responsibilities as contributors come and go. Perhaps a generic
template would be useful to make the individual contributions more uniform
in order to make them more readable for users.

So, what do ya'll think? Is this a dumb idea, or just impractical?


>>Patriarch,
>>thinking of the hardware store that advertises 'the answers are out there.'
>>Some of ours are 'way out there'.

FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages

Newsgroups line:
rec.woodworking.all-ages Woodworking for all ages.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 21 Oct 2004.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about
the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Vito Kuhn <[email protected]>
Proponent: Susan Welchel <[email protected]>
Votetaker: Bill Aten <[email protected]>

RATIONALE: rec.woodworking.all-ages

This group is proposed as a family-oriented global forum for the discussion
of woodworking topics by people of all ages. The group is a subgroup of
rec.woodworking (The Wreck, as it is commonly referred to by subscribers),
which is averaging more than 10,000 posts per month in 2004.

Reasons for creating an all-ages subgroup of rec.woodworking:

1. To offer an alternative to the only Big-8 general woodworking group,
rec.woodworking, which has proven to be an unsafe environment for children.

2. To offer woodworkers a higher signal to noise ratio than rec.woodworking
provides.

The current rec.woodworking group has no charter, and therefore it has no
rules. There are too many political debates, flaming wars, personal insults,
for-sale signs, Ebay links, and endless other forms of non-woodworking posts
in rec.woodworking by many people's standards. This new group will give
woodworkers the option of subscribing to a group that has a charter, and
therefore has a set of house rules for the community to base a standard
upon.

In recent times, the tone and language in rec.woodworking has greatly
degenerated from what it once was. The usage of vulgar language is not
uncommon, and this is unacceptable in a public forum for an all-ages
activity. This language is not limited to dedicated flamers and trolls, but
it is also used by many of the core participants of rec.woodworking, some of
whom have participated in this RFD. Take for example, this thread about the
history of the "F Word":

http://tinyurl.com/53hsv
http://tinyurl.com/6p894
http://tinyurl.com/4t856

The above URLs are links to Google Groups archives. The thread was broken
into three sub-threads due to subject changes. What does this subject have
to do with woodworking?

Also have a look at these Google queries for some popular cuss words in The
Wreck:

http://tinyurl.com/47ryd
http://tinyurl.com/63r5b
http://tinyurl.com/42bgj
http://tinyurl.com/6v5se

Posts such are these are disgusting, low-class, and repulsive. It is not the
kind of language that young children should be exposed to.

This group was originally proposed as a moderated newsgroup. In this RFD,
the status has been changed to unmoderated due to objections raised in
previous RFDs. While an unmoderated group cannot totally keep every unwanted
post out of the group, at least we can establish a community standard for
participants to comply with. Violations will not be censored by a moderator,
but the community itself will come together to help keep the litter out of
the neighborhood.

Initial Newsgroup Web Site:

http://www.softwreck.shop.ms

CHARTER: rec.woodworking.all-ages

The Soft Wreck - rec.woodworking.all-ages

The purpose of this newsgroup is to facilitate open discussion of
woodworking in a family-safe environment. This group is open to woodworking
enthusiasts of all ages, genders, creeds, backgrounds, and nationalities.
All topics related to woodworking and related tools are welcome.

Posts to this newsgroup should be limited to the topic of woodworking and
related tools. Woodturning and carving posts are also on-topic. Please do
not initiate off-topic threads. If you are participating in a thread that is
going in the off-topic direction, please add [OT] to the subject of that
thread.

Posts containing profanity and adult content are prohibited. In general,
this means any language or content that is not appropriate for young
children, as this is a family forum. Please do not write anything that you
would not say in a classroom of kindergarten children.

Please be friendly and helpful to all newsgroup participants. If you have a
disagreement with another poster, please take the high road and maintain a
civil tone with that person. Posts which obviously have the primary intent
of trolling, flaming, stalking or attacking the character of another poster
are prohibited. Posters must not include private information (like phone
numbers, private email addresses, SSN, place of employment, confidential
email addresses, etc.) of other parties. Flooding or bombing the newsgroup
or any other form of net abuse is prohibited. Posts originating from "E-mail
To News" services or known anonymous re-mail operators are prohibited.

This newsgroup is not to be used to sell, buy, trade, or auction any items
or services. Other woodworking forums, such as rec.woodworking, may be used
for such purposes instead, as long as such posts are not prohibited by the
rules of those other forums.

Commercial postings (advertisements and announcements) from for-profit
entities are prohibited. Posts containing notices or URL pointers to sale
and auction items are prohibited, however non-profit organizations and
individuals announcing meetings, workshops, or conventions may post notices
no more than once per month for each person or organization. Links to
commercial web sites should not be posted with the main intention of
generating traffic to those sites, however, links to commercial websites
contained in signatures or in response to questions are permitted.
Signatures must be limited to four lines or less.

Posts containing binary files or graphic reproductions other than small
digital signatures are prohibited. However, posts including a URL pointing
to files or web sites related to woodworking are permitted if the nature of
the URL target is clearly identified in the post. In general, crossposting
is not encouraged. If you feel the need to crosspost between
rec.woodworking.all-ages and another newsgroup, please only do it if the
post is on-topic to all groups in the crosspost. Please limit crossposts to
a maximum of two or three groups, and set follow-ups to a single group if
you must crosspost. Posts should never be crossposted between
rec.woodworking.all-ages and rec.woodworking under any circumstances.

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======= BEGINNING OF BALLOT: Delete everything BEFORE this line =======
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LAST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages

Newsgroups line:
rec.woodworking.all-ages Woodworking for all ages.

Votes must be received by 23:59:59 UTC, 21 Oct 2004.

This vote is being conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about
the proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Vito Kuhn <[email protected]>
Proponent: Susan Welchel <[email protected]>
Votetaker: Bill Aten <[email protected]>

RATIONALE: rec.woodworking.all-ages

This group is proposed as a family-oriented global forum for the discussion
of woodworking topics by people of all ages. The group is a subgroup of
rec.woodworking (The Wreck, as it is commonly referred to by subscribers),
which is averaging more than 10,000 posts per month in 2004.

Reasons for creating an all-ages subgroup of rec.woodworking:

1. To offer an alternative to the only Big-8 general woodworking group,
rec.woodworking, which has proven to be an unsafe environment for children.

2. To offer woodworkers a higher signal to noise ratio than rec.woodworking
provides.

The current rec.woodworking group has no charter, and therefore it has no
rules. There are too many political debates, flaming wars, personal insults,
for-sale signs, Ebay links, and endless other forms of non-woodworking posts
in rec.woodworking by many people's standards. This new group will give
woodworkers the option of subscribing to a group that has a charter, and
therefore has a set of house rules for the community to base a standard
upon.

In recent times, the tone and language in rec.woodworking has greatly
degenerated from what it once was. The usage of vulgar language is not
uncommon, and this is unacceptable in a public forum for an all-ages
activity. This language is not limited to dedicated flamers and trolls, but
it is also used by many of the core participants of rec.woodworking, some of
whom have participated in this RFD. Take for example, this thread about the
history of the "F Word":

http://tinyurl.com/53hsv
http://tinyurl.com/6p894
http://tinyurl.com/4t856

The above URLs are links to Google Groups archives. The thread was broken
into three sub-threads due to subject changes. What does this subject have
to do with woodworking?

Also have a look at these Google queries for some popular cuss words in The
Wreck:

http://tinyurl.com/47ryd
http://tinyurl.com/63r5b
http://tinyurl.com/42bgj
http://tinyurl.com/6v5se

Posts such are these are disgusting, low-class, and repulsive. It is not the
kind of language that young children should be exposed to.

This group was originally proposed as a moderated newsgroup. In this RFD,
the status has been changed to unmoderated due to objections raised in
previous RFDs. While an unmoderated group cannot totally keep every unwanted
post out of the group, at least we can establish a community standard for
participants to comply with. Violations will not be censored by a moderator,
but the community itself will come together to help keep the litter out of
the neighborhood.

Initial Newsgroup Web Site:

http://www.softwreck.shop.ms

CHARTER: rec.woodworking.all-ages

The Soft Wreck - rec.woodworking.all-ages

The purpose of this newsgroup is to facilitate open discussion of
woodworking in a family-safe environment. This group is open to woodworking
enthusiasts of all ages, genders, creeds, backgrounds, and nationalities.
All topics related to woodworking and related tools are welcome.

Posts to this newsgroup should be limited to the topic of woodworking and
related tools. Woodturning and carving posts are also on-topic. Please do
not initiate off-topic threads. If you are participating in a thread that is
going in the off-topic direction, please add [OT] to the subject of that
thread.

Posts containing profanity and adult content are prohibited. In general,
this means any language or content that is not appropriate for young
children, as this is a family forum. Please do not write anything that you
would not say in a classroom of kindergarten children.

Please be friendly and helpful to all newsgroup participants. If you have a
disagreement with another poster, please take the high road and maintain a
civil tone with that person. Posts which obviously have the primary intent
of trolling, flaming, stalking or attacking the character of another poster
are prohibited. Posters must not include private information (like phone
numbers, private email addresses, SSN, place of employment, confidential
email addresses, etc.) of other parties. Flooding or bombing the newsgroup
or any other form of net abuse is prohibited. Posts originating from "E-mail
To News" services or known anonymous re-mail operators are prohibited.

This newsgroup is not to be used to sell, buy, trade, or auction any items
or services. Other woodworking forums, such as rec.woodworking, may be used
for such purposes instead, as long as such posts are not prohibited by the
rules of those other forums.

Commercial postings (advertisements and announcements) from for-profit
entities are prohibited. Posts containing notices or URL pointers to sale
and auction items are prohibited, however non-profit organizations and
individuals announcing meetings, workshops, or conventions may post notices
no more than once per month for each person or organization. Links to
commercial web sites should not be posted with the main intention of
generating traffic to those sites, however, links to commercial websites
contained in signatures or in response to questions are permitted.
Signatures must be limited to four lines or less.

Posts containing binary files or graphic reproductions other than small
digital signatures are prohibited. However, posts including a URL pointing
to files or web sites related to woodworking are permitted if the nature of
the URL target is clearly identified in the post. In general, crossposting
is not encouraged. If you feel the need to crosspost between
rec.woodworking.all-ages and another newsgroup, please only do it if the
post is on-topic to all groups in the crosspost. Please limit crossposts to
a maximum of two or three groups, and set follow-ups to a single group if
you must crosspost. Posts should never be crossposted between
rec.woodworking.all-ages and rec.woodworking under any circumstances.

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DO NOT redistribute this CFV in any manner whatsoever. The purpose of
a Usenet vote is to determine the genuine interest of persons who would
read a proposed newsgroup. Soliciting votes from disinterested parties
defeats this purpose. Only the votetaker, the news.announce.newgroups
moderator, and the proponent (if specifically authorized by the votetaker)
are permitted to distribute copies of this CFV.

Distribution of pre-marked or otherwise modified copies of this CFV is
generally considered voting fraud and should be reported immediately to
the votetaker or the UVV <[email protected]>. In cases where voting fraud
is determined to have occurred, it is standard operating procedure to
delete ALL votes submitted by the violator. When in doubt, ask the
votetaker.

DISTRIBUTION:

The only official sources for copies of this CFV are the locations listed
below, the UVV web site at http://www.uvv.org/, and the votetaker's e-mail
CFV server which can be reached at <[email protected]>.

This CFV has been posted to the following newsgroups:

news.announce.newgroups
news.groups
free.uk.woodworking
rec.crafts.woodturning
rec.woodworking

rec.woodworking.all-ages - Ack Bounce List
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because the Vote Ack email bounced, the email addresses and associated
ballots listed below are considered invalid and will not be counted in the
final result. Ballots must be submitted from a valid and verifyable email
address in order to be processed. The individuals listed below will need
to revote from a valid email address prior to the poll closing in order to
correct this problem.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a.o [at] swar.net Alec O'Grady
balsapilot1 [at] yahoo.com Ed Kristofferson
dj [at] delorie.com DJ Delorie
jhayter [at] hotmail.com Jim Hayter
john [at] no.spam.linuxlad.org linux_lad
norm [at] aracnet.com David Hamann
nospam [at] nospam.net Larry Gallagher

--
Bill Aten, UVV <[email protected]>

RESULT
unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages passes 283:93

Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 21 Oct 2004.

This vote was conducted by a neutral third party. Questions about the
proposed group should be directed to the proponent.

Proponent: Vito Kuhn <[email protected]>
Proponent: Susan Welchel <[email protected]>
Votetaker: Bill Aten <[email protected]>

There were 376 valid YES/NO votes submitted during the voting period. Each
proposed newsgroup, in order to pass, must have at least 2/3 YES votes and at
least 100 more YES than NO votes. The results are as follows:

rec.woodworking.all-ages results - 376 valid (YES & NO) votes

Yes No : 2/3? >100? : Pass? : Group
---- ---- : ---- ----- : ----- : -------------------------------------------
283 93 : Yes Yes : Yes : rec.woodworking.all-ages
7 abstaining votes and 6 invalid votes

The proposal passed.

There is a five day discussion period after these results are posted. If no
serious and significant allegations of voting irregularities are raised, the
moderator of news.announce.newgroups will create the newsgroup shortly
thereafter.

The remainder of the RESULT contains:
Newsgroups Line
Rationale
Charter
Final Voting Acknowledgements

NEWSGROUPS LINE:
rec.woodworking.all-ages Woodworking for all ages.

RATIONALE: rec.woodworking.all-ages

This group is proposed as a family-oriented global forum for the discussion
of woodworking topics by people of all ages. The group is a subgroup of
rec.woodworking (The Wreck, as it is commonly referred to by subscribers),
which is averaging more than 10,000 posts per month in 2004.

Reasons for creating an all-ages subgroup of rec.woodworking:

1. To offer an alternative to the only Big-8 general woodworking group,
rec.woodworking, which has proven to be an unsafe environment for children.

2. To offer woodworkers a higher signal to noise ratio than rec.woodworking
provides.

The current rec.woodworking group has no charter, and therefore it has no
rules. There are too many political debates, flaming wars, personal insults,
for-sale signs, Ebay links, and endless other forms of non-woodworking posts
in rec.woodworking by many people's standards. This new group will give
woodworkers the option of subscribing to a group that has a charter, and
therefore has a set of house rules for the community to base a standard
upon.

In recent times, the tone and language in rec.woodworking has greatly
degenerated from what it once was. The usage of vulgar language is not
uncommon, and this is unacceptable in a public forum for an all-ages
activity. This language is not limited to dedicated flamers and trolls, but
it is also used by many of the core participants of rec.woodworking, some of
whom have participated in this RFD. Take for example, this thread about the
history of the "F Word":

http://tinyurl.com/53hsv
http://tinyurl.com/6p894
http://tinyurl.com/4t856

The above URLs are links to Google Groups archives. The thread was broken
into three sub-threads due to subject changes. What does this subject have
to do with woodworking?

Also have a look at these Google queries for some popular cuss words in The
Wreck:

http://tinyurl.com/47ryd
http://tinyurl.com/63r5b
http://tinyurl.com/42bgj
http://tinyurl.com/6v5se

Posts such are these are disgusting, low-class, and repulsive. It is not the
kind of language that young children should be exposed to.

This group was originally proposed as a moderated newsgroup. In this RFD,
the status has been changed to unmoderated due to objections raised in
previous RFDs. While an unmoderated group cannot totally keep every unwanted
post out of the group, at least we can establish a community standard for
participants to comply with. Violations will not be censored by a moderator,
but the community itself will come together to help keep the litter out of
the neighborhood.

Initial Newsgroup Web Site:

http://www.softwreck.shop.ms

CHARTER: rec.woodworking.all-ages

The Soft Wreck - rec.woodworking.all-ages

The purpose of this newsgroup is to facilitate open discussion of
woodworking in a family-safe environment. This group is open to woodworking
enthusiasts of all ages, genders, creeds, backgrounds, and nationalities.
All topics related to woodworking and related tools are welcome.

Posts to this newsgroup should be limited to the topic of woodworking and
related tools. Woodturning and carving posts are also on-topic. Please do
not initiate off-topic threads. If you are participating in a thread that is
going in the off-topic direction, please add [OT] to the subject of that
thread.

Posts containing profanity and adult content are prohibited. In general,
this means any language or content that is not appropriate for young
children, as this is a family forum. Please do not write anything that you
would not say in a classroom of kindergarten children.

Please be friendly and helpful to all newsgroup participants. If you have a
disagreement with another poster, please take the high road and maintain a
civil tone with that person. Posts which obviously have the primary intent
of trolling, flaming, stalking or attacking the character of another poster
are prohibited. Posters must not include private information (like phone
numbers, private email addresses, SSN, place of employment, confidential
email addresses, etc.) of other parties. Flooding or bombing the newsgroup
or any other form of net abuse is prohibited. Posts originating from "E-mail
To News" services or known anonymous re-mail operators are prohibited.

This newsgroup is not to be used to sell, buy, trade, or auction any items
or services. Other woodworking forums, such as rec.woodworking, may be used
for such purposes instead, as long as such posts are not prohibited by the
rules of those other forums.

Commercial postings (advertisements and announcements) from for-profit
entities are prohibited. Posts containing notices or URL pointers to sale
and auction items are prohibited, however non-profit organizations and
individuals announcing meetings, workshops, or conventions may post notices
no more than once per month for each person or organization. Links to
commercial web sites should not be posted with the main intention of
generating traffic to those sites, however, links to commercial websites
contained in signatures or in response to questions are permitted.
Signatures must be limited to four lines or less.

Posts containing binary files or graphic reproductions other than small
digital signatures are prohibited. However, posts including a URL pointing
to files or web sites related to woodworking are permitted if the nature of
the URL target is clearly identified in the post. In general, crossposting
is not encouraged. If you feel the need to crosspost between
rec.woodworking.all-ages and another newsgroup, please only do it if the
post is on-topic to all groups in the crosspost. Please limit crossposts to
a maximum of two or three groups, and set follow-ups to a single group if
you must crosspost. Posts should never be crossposted between
rec.woodworking.all-ages and rec.woodworking under any circumstances.

END CHARTER.

FINAL VOTING ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS:

rec.woodworking.all-ages - Final Voter List

NOTE: This is not [to be used as] a mailing list. The email addresses
are provided only to help verify the validity of the interest poll.

Voted YES
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
0000000000000000000.usenet-voter [at] votes.cc Wayne J. Stern
727r34q02 [at] sneakemail.com Lewis Statler
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaashit [at] fuckshitpussyfuck.com JOAT loves Dick
aaabbbccc [at] netcop.com BAD's Revenge
aames [at] grungecafe.com Tommy Aames
aarod [at] wicked-bitch.zzn.com Lynne Aarod
abdulahmed4 [at] maktoob.com Abdul Ahmed IV
abw [at] eid.com Alexandria B. Wojciechowski
adamson [at] idxc.org Reginald Adamson
al-mazroa [at] maktoob.com Adnan Al-Mazroa
alberta [at] grafxhousenetwork.net Mindy Alberta
alfredo [at] stromboli.uni.cc Alfredo Stromboli
alfredomartinez510 [at] hotmail.com Alfredo Martinez
alicia [at] 6k2.com Alicia Brownstone
allie.ginsberg [at] brebeufcollege.net Allie Ginsberg
anastasia [at] dlshq.org Sara Anastasia
andretti [at] tigerdrive.com Ann Marie Andretti
andy.levita [at] baconestudents.org Andy Levita
arlenbruno [at] hotmail.com Arlen Bruno
arlington [at] sciseek.com Nelson Arlington
art [at] stromboli.uni.cc Arturo Stromboli
artakka [at] hotmail.com Artak Kalantarian
awr [at] xyz.ro A. Winona Romero
a_69_1 [at] hotmail.com Arlene Balken
bad-ninja [at] taekwondo.co.nz Leon Marshall
baffled87 [at] operamail.com Josh Howen
baird.wilkinsen [at] truongxua.net Baird Wilkinsen
barbara.burke [at] math.com Barbara Burke
bendilbert [at] netscape.net Ben Dilbert
benny [at] netzoola.com Benny Lembrecht
bfalvo [at] zuvio.com Beth Falvo
blakelei [at] hotmail.com Sam Blakelei
blind-ear [at] deafcafe.com Bruce Carpenter
bloodyscott [at] uku.co.uk Scott Keller
bouvin [at] daimi.au.dk Niels Olof Bouvin
boycrazyfaggot [at] backstreetboysclub.com Maurice Queen
bradley_wolfen [at] yahoo.com Bradley Wolfen
bruno [at] stromboli.uni.cc Bruno Stromboli
buellrider [at] emailgroups.net Heather Mullahey
bulldog [at] smapxsmap.net John Asaki
bunghole53 [at] lycos.com Lucia Vega
burtlovasik [at] yahoo.com Burt Lovasik
cain [at] mail2Paralegal.com Cain Palivon
carlbyington [at] hotmail.com Carl Byington
caryknofler [at] mail2Utah.com Cary Knofler
cdelf [at] your-house.com Charlie Delf
chadkelvin [at] lycos.com Chad Kelvin
charlessheller [at] yahoo.com Charles Sheller
chonglai_188 [at] hotmail.com Chong Lai
chuck [at] capital.net Chuck Holcomb
cira [at] stromboli.uni.cc Cira Stromboli
crocodile-dundee [at] ausi.com Edmund Drake
deanhumphries [at] softhome.net Dean Humphries
degeno [at] postmaster.co.uk Eric Degeno
devereaux [at] atlas.cz Blanche Devereaux
dgp [at] students.net Dave Prince
dianakokablake [at] hotmail.com Diana Kokablake
dimitri.t [at] atlas.cz Dimitri Cestovani
dinghcheng [at] hotmail.com Dingh Cheng
dinkins [at] newyorknet.zzn.com Dwight Dinkins
dixiemillgoreen [at] yahoo.com Dixie Millgoreen
dkugelberg [at] johnsonlaminating.com Don Kugelberg
dodcopman [at] myway.com Brian Tetwiler
dogbreeder [at] wickedpuppy.com Paula Sharples
dohlberry [at] reiki.nu John Dohlberry
donald [at] galaxy5.com Donald Howards
doricashman [at] yahoo.com Dori Cashman
drakov [at] romania-on-line.net Eso Drakov
eduardo401 [at] lycos.com Eduardo Ortega
elaineg [at] graffiti.net Elaine Gaston
elimadre [at] mail2eli.com Eli Madre
emmaclemence [at] canada.com Emma Clemence
engineer [at] box.digimusic.net Tim Keshaun
enrico [at] stromboli.uni.cc Enrico Stromboli
enzo [at] stromboli.uni.cc Enzo Stromboli Senior
ernie.roscoe [at] operamail.com Ernie Roscoe
etovekaf [at] emailpinoy.com Tristan Etovekaf
eugene.tyler [at] howtokillapenguin.com Eugene Tyler
evilteacher [at] examnotes.net Earl Boyd
evrichards [at] postinbox.com Evander Richards
ExodLee [at] netscape.net Simon Lee
fidels29 [at] excite.com Fidel Salvador
fila_brasileiros [at] hotmail.com Luiz Vercosa
flogreco [at] veryspeedy.net Florence Greco
francoislazare [at] netscape.net Francois Lazare
frankie [at] stromboli.uni.cc Frankie Stromboli
freak [at] notme.com Celine Gerber
funkmasterfrank [at] graffiti.net Franklin Weber
GarrettBailey854 [at] netscape.net Garrett Bailey
garthdamon [at] hotmail.com Garth Damon
gaspar_esperanza_781 [at] hotmail.com Gaspar Esperanza
george_poulos_65 [at] lycos.com George Poulos
gertz [at] mcpmail.com Conan Gertz
ghengiskhan [at] glay.org Craig Flam
gillermo.santos [at] caadm.com Gillermo Santos
gina [at] stromboli.uni.cc Gina Stromboli
gortician [at] neworleansradio.zzn.com Jason Christie
gregorio [at] uku.co.uk Ken Gregorio
gt [at] whoever.com Glenn Tomas
gussauros [at] fastimap.com Gus Sauros
h.roxanne [at] uku.co.uk Roxanne Hogan
hans.sluzeb [at] atlas.cz Hans Sluzeb
harcourt [at] frenchclub.zzn.com Frasier Harcourt
harry.jaques [at] aggressive.com Harry Jaques
myrnacarson@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijk.com
Myrna Carson
hillary_ardschlock [at] yahoo.com Hillary Ardschlock
horace.andrews [at] scenta.co.uk Horace Andrews
hugo [at] stromboli.uni.cc Hugo Stromboli
irena [at] chesspartner.com Irena Jacobine
isabel.madeira [at] temenos.net Isabel Madeira
Ivanna [at] mail2MsRight.com Ivanna Duvane
j.garfinkel [at] linuxmail.org Jenny Garfinkel
j7t88jx02 [at] sneakemail.com Sven Haagen
jabbar69 [at] linuxmail.org Madison Jabbar
jacintavercosa [at] hotmail.com Jacinta Vercosa
jackdimosa [at] lycos.com Jack Dimosa
jackson-stemmer [at] excite.com Jackson Stemmer
jamesdodovore [at] worldemail.com James Dodovore
janisleary [at] yahoo.com Janis Leary
jhweeks [at] earthlink.net John Weeks
JoanneFleece [at] netscape.net Joanne Fleece
joe.nation [at] wcc.net Joe Nation
joedog90045 [at] yahoo.com Dan Lee
joey [at] stromboli.uni.cc Joey Stromboli
johang [at] excite.com Johan Gennaro
joniscohen [at] hotmail.com Jonis Cohen
josh [at] posh.as Josh Crassdale
juanita.cubano [at] AGUIARMELLO.zzn.com juanita cubano
juannelasa [at] lycos.com Juan Vega
juggernaut [at] Huguenot.ws Celia Eleuterio
juliagermaine_8 [at] hotmail.com Julia Germaine
junior [at] stromboli.uni.cc Enzo Stromboli Junior
karl.f [at] 1000-www-gsr-sexplanets-com-sexnet-1000.zzn.com Karl Feldman
keifer_falani_rocks [at] hotmail.com Keifer Falani
keithlexington [at] netscape.net Keith Lexington
kenadambeyer [at] hotmail.com Ken Adam Beyer
kokerjay [at] yahoo.com Jay Koker
korminnosa [at] netscape.net Rosamarianna Korminnosa
krinsch [at] atlas.cz Ari Krinsch
larchmont [at] earthling.net Brian Larchmont
larry.b.scott [at] linuxmail.org Larry B Scott
lauraroscoe [at] excite.com Laura Roscoe
leefong493 [at] hotmail.com Lee Fong
lemondor [at] UrbanButterfly.zzn.com Jean Lemondor
leo [at] stromboli.uni.cc Leo Stromboli
letenky [at] atlas.cz Vadim Letenky
lino [at] stromboli.uni.cc Lino Stromboli
louisannar [at] excite.com Louisanna Rothwell
luliuk [at] mail2Anesthesiologist.com Patrick Dole
m-cox [at] comcast.net Michael Cox
maninthedoorway [at] hackernetwork.com Man In The Doorway
marco [at] stromboli.uni.cc Marco Stromboli
mario [at] stromboli.uni.cc Mario Stromboli
mark_logan_375 [at] hotmail.com Mark Logan
martinvandenstock [at] lycos.com Martin Vandenstock
maryjodacus [at] lycos.com Mary Jo Dacus
mason.g [at] uku.co.uk Graham L. Mason
mason.t [at] uku.co.uk Tia C. Mason
mauro [at] stromboli.uni.cc Mauro Stromboli
mel [at] anjelomida.com Mel Saccomar
melinda [at] mail2cute.com melinda colton
michal [at] rosa.id.au Michal Rosa
miyako.natsumi [at] simarchitect.com Miyako Natsumi
mohawk [at] travelpunk.com Kellie Mackon
montalban [at] worldemail.com Manuel Montalban
morrison [at] TOOLMAIL.zzn.com Hamilton S Morrison
mus00hz02 [at] sneakemail.com Jim Byrd
naderfan53212 [at] netscape.net Geoff I. Klein
nds [at] mad.scientist.com Louis Browne
niihara [at] takuyakimura.com Hiro Niihara
nisakikawawi [at] norika-fujiwara.com Nisaki Kawawi
nlk5gj402 [at] sneakemail.com Lenny Moorland
normandine [at] uku.co.uk Della Normandine
not.me [at] whoever.com John Patrosky
ohn.danese [at] students.net J.C. Danese
ortiz.eva [at] hispaniconline.com Eva Ortiz
oshkosh7685 [at] excite.com Clara Burgdorff
paco.madeira [at] temenos.net Paco Madeira
paolopizzi [at] email.it Paolo Pizzi
parkin [at] GlobalHomebiz.zzn.com Elmer Parkin
patsygo [at] lycos.com Pat Segovia
paulinacooke [at] netscape.net Paulina Cooke
pauline.berryhill [at] masochists.zzn.com Pauline Berryhill
pelosi [at] excite.com Naomi Pelosi
phelps [at] dcemail.com Barbara Phelps
philipt [at] graffiti.net Philip Tolbert
pietrof [at] excite.com Pietro Frederickson
poolplayerdude [at] operamail.com Ernest Hahn
porto_930 [at] hotmail.com Jessica Portolano
myemailaddressissofuckinglong@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijk.com
Nathan B. Carson
puppyloverpsychobitch [at] yahoo.com Allister Crawthorne
queenie388 [at] lycos.com Stephanie Hasselhov
quincy.fuscienne [at] australia.edu Quincy Fuscienne
r2g5t [at] u2club.com Miles Lincoln
ragmuffins [at] linuxmail.org Luke Phyllis
rainer [at] ezc.info Henry Rainer
ramirovialpando [at] hotmail.com Ramiro Vialpando
raylene.b [at] Alice-Cooper.zzn.com Raylene Bossi
reklama.nadia [at] atlas.cz Nadia Reklama
renaldogrieves [at] operamail.com Renaldo Grieves
renbuckley [at] yahoo.com Ren Buckley
richard.boerma [at] juno.com Richard Boerma
rita.rhodes [at] operamail.com Rita Rhodes
rob [at] stromboli.uni.cc Roberto Stromboli
roberthosford [at] hotmail.com Robert Hosford
robguarino [at] zuvio.com Rob Guarino
roche [at] netlimit.com Marion Roche
rodulbrecht [at] hotmail.com Roderick Ulbrecht
roger.yari [at] ujamaapoets.com Roger Yari
ronkonkoma [at] woodpeckers.zzn.com Jason Ronkonkoma
roplasgow [at] sudandirect.zzn.com Levitar Roplasgow
rosa [at] stromboli.uni.cc Rosa Stromboli
rosario [at] stromboli.uni.cc Rosario Stromboli
RRBeans [at] netscape.net Karen Lovell
russell.murdoch [at] uku.co.uk Russell Murdoch
rverne [at] nc.rr.com Robert Verne
RWss313 [at] netscape.net Ronald Weiss
ryan4941 [at] lycos.com Ryan McKittrick
sallarka [at] hotmail.com Sal Larka
salvatore_iorio [at] operamail.com Salvatore Iorio
sam.moholland [at] uku.co.uk Sam Moholland
samguam81 [at] hotmail.com Samuel Guam
samiz [at] atlas.cz Sandro Samiz
santa [at] stromboli.uni.cc Santa Stromboli
santullo_vera [at] hotmail.com Vera Santullo
sara.murdoch [at] uku.co.uk Sara Murdoch
scorekeeper25 [at] excite.com Alan Gaynor
scottmolonato [at] yahoo.com Scott Molonato
sean.monaghan [at] scenta.co.uk Sean Monaghan
seanster413 [at] hotmail.com Sean Franklin
sermon [at] FuckMeJesus.zzn.com Robert A. Sermon
serpent [at] mail2beast.com Bard Roman
seymour.amarante [at] worldemail.com Seymour Amarante
shirleypridgen [at] yahoo.com Shirley Pridgen
simonwellington [at] imap.cc Simon Wellington
sissy-queer [at] boyzoneclub.com Aubrey Griffis
skeeterbeter [at] graffiti.net Mack Thompson
slackdog [at] quackquack.com Ben Ulstereich
sleazy_woodworker [at] yahoo.com Colm Driscoll
smlucas [at] flashmail.com Steven Lucas
snuhnet [at] speedpost.net Laurence Peavy
spidermen [at] lionrampant.co.uk Zeke Featherman
spohlnekost [at] atlas.cz Geno Spohlnekost
starkey [at] cyberbabies.com Ethel Starkey
steven.green [at] australia.edu Steven Green
stovelli.michael [at] swatvalley.com Michael Stovelli
stratfore [at] evg1977.zzn.com Keith Stratfore
susan.welchel [at] bigfoot.com Susan Welchel
sylvesterkochos [at] lycos.com Sylvester Kochos
t.bud.c [at] australia.edu T. Bud Crevasse
takasaki [at] meishi.co.jp Akira Takasaki
terese.beliard [at] graffiti.net terese beliard
terry [at] wolf-web.com Terry Roche
thurmand31 [at] excite.com Dana Thurman
todd.baillie [at] uku.co.uk Todd Baillie
tomaszn7263 [at] lycos.com Tomasz Brzezinski
tony [at] stromboli.uni.cc Tony Stromboli
troypanovene [at] hotmail.com Troy Panovene
trumpeteer [at] uku.co.uk Jeff Nesmondi
tso [at] leehom.net Tso Chin
umabrinks [at] excite.com Uma Brinks
umberto [at] nativeweb.net Umberto Garcia
vette-owner79 [at] excite.com Kristine Succore
victheflick2 [at] hotmail.com Vic T. Jones
vince.simms [at] operamail.com Vincent Simms
vincenzo [at] stromboli.uni.cc Vincenzo Stromboli
visionarydude [at] lycos.com Glenn Halford
vitokuhn [at] hotmail.com Vito Kuhn
w8j4c8f7u2h4g9s8m4h4s8p2x8j3c8m4 [at] yahoo.com Jorge Cruz
walter.botte [at] surfy.net Walter Botte
wigger [at] phatpimpclothing.com Phoenix Skyler
willard.langford [at] operamail.com Willard Langford
Willy_Davila [at] mail2southpole.com willy davila
winston [at] windfall.ca Winston Cromwell
winterburn [at] PunkAss.com Virginia Winterburn
wishingwell [at] uku.co.uk Anne Stricker
xavier [at] mail2Oceanographer.com Xavier Monaco
xballer [at] ballerstatus.net Dom Reinoso
xboxgamer [at] uku.co.uk Charlene Smithers
xiang.tai [at] Taiwanese.zzn.com Xiang Tai
zoophobia [at] linuxmail.org Howard C. Johnston
ztbs [at] scientist.com Leroy Flambendt
zztop [at] yummy.org Roger Bonomi

Voted NO
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
abartel [at] fairwayford.ca Allan Bartel
akgm [at] austin.rr.com Gary Milliorn
andy [at] andyjeffries.co.uk Andy Jeffries
arfenarf [at] hotmail.com KW Brown
bakaatz [at] anybody.com bakaatz
balsapilot1 [at] yahoo.com Ed Kristofferson
bmailman [at] sfo.com Brian Mailman
Bob.Hutch [at] verizon.net Bob Hutch
bridgerb [at] cox.net bridger
brysonwilma [at] sbcglobal.net Bryson Allen
cabierbaum [at] comcast.net Alan Bierbaum
cefischer [at] earthlink.net C. E. Fischer
ceri [at] submonkey.net Ceri Davies
Charlie.Spitzer [at] stratus.com Spitzer, Charlie
chrajohn [at] alumni.indiana.edu Chris Johnson
ckstuff [at] sonic.net Charles Koester
ctjohnson [at] tds.net Chris Johnson
Dan [at] Oelke.com Dan Oelke
dave [at] balderstone.ca Dave Balderstone
davehinz [at] spamcop.net Dave Hinz
daveldr [at] netzero.com Dave Leader
dc [at] panix.com David W. Crawford
dchsueh [at] alumni.uwaterloo.ca Daniel Hsueh
dingbat [at] codesmiths.com Andy Dingley
dj [at] delorie.com DJ Delorie
edward_ohare [at] yahoo.com edward ohare
Ekkehard [at] Uthke.de Ekkehard Uthke
fort514 [at] mac.com Charles
fwbrown [at] bellsouth.net Wayne Brown
g [at] stromboli.uni.cc Giorgio Stromboli
gmmillen [at] bigpond.net.au Greg Millen
google-user [at] nospam.dnsalias.org D Golden
gormanj [at] musc.edu Joe Gorman
gto69ra4 [at] aol.com John Reynolds "GTO(John)"
halld [at] nhsd.k12.pa.us W. David Hall
herveus [at] radix.net Michael Houghton
icw6okl02 [at] sneakemail.com David Harmon
igopogo2001 [at] yahoo.com John McCoy
irwin [at] stat.ohio-state.edu Mark Irwin
j.v.ashby [at] rl.ac.uk John Ashby
jada [at] stromboli.uni.cc Jada Stromboli
jayhanig [at] carolina.rr.com John D. Hanig
jesp [at] hotvoice.com Eugenio Sanchez
jimi_tubman [at] blueyonder.co.uk Jimi Tubman
jim_hayter [at] hotmail.com Jim Hayter
jloyless [at] att.net Jane Loyless
johnson21710 [at] verizon.net John L. Johnson
josephwells [at] yahoo.com Joe Wells
jp [at] mitre.org Jeffrey Picciotto
jthunder [at] math.niu.edu Jeffrey Thunder
lobby.dosser [at] verizon.net Lobby Dosser
LRod [at] pobox.com Rod Peterson (LRod)
maggyj [at] earthlink.net john johnson
Matt.Wilson [at] entrust.com Matt Wilson
mbaglio [at] nc.rr.com Michael Baglio
mbeau [at] sympatico.ca Marcel Beaudoin
miliff [at] qnet.com Mary Shafer
mmarlow [at] sprintmail.com Mike Marlow
mnjlange [at] direcway.com Mark & Juanita
mona [at] stromboli.uni.cc Mona Stromboli
nsouto [at] bizmail.com.au Nuno Souto
Outwater [at] bellsouth.net R. Outwater
pan [at] syix.com Pan
pattist [at] earthlink.net Barbara Pattist
phil [at] panix.com Phil Gustafson
phoenixclaw [at] charter.net Jesse Krenzelok
pmkierst [at] hotmail.com Paul Kierstead
psmyth [at] gmx.net Peter Smyth
puffmc [at] alltel.net David P. Griffis
Ravens [at] madbbs.com Norm Crow
rdb2175 [at] mail.r-bonomi.com R. B0N0M1
recnorm [at] yukonomics.ca Luigi Zanasi
rick [at] bcm.tmc.edu Richard Miller
rick_schmalzried [at] yahoo.com Rick Schmalzried
robert.mcclenon [at] verizon.net Robert McClenon
robkelk [at] jksrv.com Rob Kelk
ronnirubin [at] sprintmail.com Arthur L. Rubin
ru.igarashi [at] usask.ca ru igarashi
rwm [at] adelphia.net RWmMorgan
rwwaa-vote [at] billmail.scconsult.com Bill Cole
sambo145 [at] aol.com sambo145
sloane [at] ku.edu Bob Sloane
slp53 [at] sbcglobal.net scott lurndal
spamhater103+U041011222554 [at] grymoire.com Bruce Barnett
squid [at] panix.com Yeoh Yiu
stainles [at] realtime.net Dwight Brown
tdouglass [at] bendcable.com Tim Douglass
tom.hickey [at] rogers.com Tom Hickey
Tom [at] dacons.com Tom Dacon
tomveatch [at] onemain.com Tom Veatch
vpdura [at] hiwaay.net Victor P Dura
woodworks [at] milmac.com Doug Miller
wrbegley [at] sympatico.ca Richard Begley

Voted ABSTAIN
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
aahz [at] pobox.com Aahz
bwr607 [at] hotmail.com Woodchuck Bill
e [at] stromboli.uni.cc Elisabetta Stromboli
montch [at] aracnet.com Matthew Montchalin
mrdovey [at] iedu.com Morris Dovey
olivia [at] stromboli.uni.cc Olivia Stromboli
van.ette [at] inter.nl.net Robert-Jan van Ette

Invalid Votes
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
a.o [at] swar.net Alec O'Grady
! Ack bounced: User unknown
ellis [at] spinics.net
! No name given
john [at] no.spam.linuxlad.org linux_lad
! Ack bounced: User unknown
norm.froscher [at] surfy.net Norm Froscher
! Ack bounced: User unknown
norm [at] aracnet.com David Hamann
! Ack bounced: User unknown
nospam [at] nospam.net Larry Gallagher
! Ack bounced: Host unknown

--
Bill Aten, UVV <[email protected]>

On 22 Oct 2004 03:51:59 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] (Bill Aten) wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> RESULT
>> unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages passes 283:93
>
>Damn. It passed. I'm in shock.

Interesting perusing the list of those voting for it -- Man in the
Doorway?

Howdy!

In article <[email protected]>,
Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Anonymous <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> When the time comes to vote, vote your conscience but please,
>> let's not argue the finer points on this fine forum.
>>
>
>This discussion is supposed to be taking place in news.groups only. I don't
>understand why people keep crossposting it back here.
>
The RFD was cross-posted to rec.woodworking. It's germane to rec.woodworking.
Why is it inappropriate to have this discussion running in news.groups *and*
rec.woodworking? I don't understand why you don't understand it.

Some of us don't regularly read news.groups, but are quite interested in
this RFD.

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
[email protected] | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Howdy!

In article <[email protected]>,
Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote in
>news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 22 Sep 2004 00:23:56 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Why would you care if you wouldn't be reading the group?
>>
>> Dilution of the real group.
>>
>
>But you said you might trust someone else to moderate the soft wreck. Which
>is it? Are you against the new group? Or are you against the originally
>proposed moderators? Do you have any constructive suggestions for the
>proponents on how they might achieve their goal? Or will you simply be
>against anything they propose?
>
The proponent has failed to present a rationale that actually makes a sound
argument for a new group. The concerns the proponent raises pretty much
require moderation if they are to be meaningfullly addressed, but the
moderation scheme that had been proposed was fatally flawed. I don't
recall seeing any replies from the proponent that spoke to concerns raised
in discussion. That, in and of itself, is troubling.

The latest proposal would simply provide a duplicate forum with a fancy
name. No evidence was adduced to show what fraction of the threads on
rec.woodworking would be diverted to this new group. Given the RFD, I
don't know how that could be done, either. My reply to the RFD asks some
pointed questions that I suspect will be ignored by the proponents. I'd
like to be proven wrong.

Failure to respond shows a lack of interest in making this work.

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
[email protected] | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Luigi Zanasi wrote:

> If you don't like that, you could set up a mirror of rec.woodworking,
> something like the following web site, and you could delete any post
> you object to and moderate it to your heart's content.

I would object mightily if I knew any posting I made in any group were
being redirected.

B/

patriarch < wrote:

> Brian Mailman <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Luigi Zanasi wrote:
>>
>>> If you don't like that, you could set up a mirror of rec.woodworking,
>>> something like the following web site, and you could delete any post
>>> you object to and moderate it to your heart's content.
>>
>> I would object mightily if I knew any posting I made in any group were
>> being redirected.

> So what do you think of Google Groups?

I don't know much about them. Do you mean the web interface to Usenet?
Then that's fine, if someone is happy with that kind of kludge. I'm
talking about redirecting to a web site. I'm not saying you shouldn't
(you-all) but I'd be uncomfortable with it.

B/

Howdy!

In article <[email protected]>,
Susan Welchel <[email protected]> wrote:
>Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:36:39 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >Susan Welchel <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>The decent folk will be attracted to the all-ages
>> >>group, and the rest of them can stay where they are.
>> >
>> > What are you going to do when someone says stuff like
>> > "Damn it, you're right about that technique",
>>
>>
>> You mean like this ?
>>
>> > From: VK ([email protected])
>> >No wonder all those free-standing boxes are so damn heavy.
>
>First of all, profanity is the FU** word, the SH** word, the C***
>word. You know. Stuff you can't say on radio or network television. An
>occasional slip like that would not be awful. "Damn" is a grey word,
>and depending on how it's used determines how bad it is. The way Vito
>used it there is not too bad, though I am still uncomfortable with it.

That's a curious (convenient?) definition of profanity. Including "damn"
as a profane word is unremarkable.
>
>Second of all, that was posted before Vito's accident when he was a
>different man. That was before he rediscovered his faith in God.
>People are allowed to repent. God will forgive sinners if they turn to
>Jesus. Even in the old days, Vito didn't use language like some of the
>wreckers do. You will not find The FU** word, the SH** word, or the
>C*** word in any of his posts. Dig away.

That's irrelevant. It's also distracting to be preaching Christianity
in the context of an RFD for a woodworking group. Yeah, Jesus was a
carpenter, but that is not near enough a connection to make it germane.

yours,
Michael


--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
[email protected] | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

Joe Wells wrote:

> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:35:31 -0700, Susan Welchel wrote:

> Will we be assigned some sort of grading system? Kinda like the DMV
> points system? What if I slip up and type "merde" into an otherwise
> relevant, on-topic post. Will I lose points? If I lose all my points will
> my posting privileges be revoked?

Impossible. This proposal is for an unmoderated group, which would have
the qualitative effect of duplicating the existing group with a
different name.

B/

Marcel Beaudoin wrote:

> I don't think that they are redirected to Google. I am pretty sure that
> Google grabs the posts and then updates its listing.

Right.

B/

Howdy!

In article <041020041049074447%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca>,
Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:
[snip]
>
>The point of the RFD anc CFV process is for the proponent(s) of the new
>group to lobby for support and build a consensus that the new group is
>needed and will add something of value to usenet on its creation.
>
>The proponents of this CFV have done the opposite, and now appear to be
>actively avoiding any discussion.
>
"appear"? They have failed to respond to politely phrased questions not
set in an otherwise insulting context. Ok, maybe they are passively avoiding...

>As a result, creating the new group is unlikely to add any value.
>
Worse, creating that new group would create confusion as to which of the two
groups one should place a particular post in. This is directly contrary to the
reason for standing up a new big-eight group.

[snip]
>
>That's why I voted no.

"What he said."

yours,
Michael
--
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
[email protected] | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/wwap/

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 06:10:46 GMT, Kevin Craig <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Alan Bierbaum
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I don't see any names that I recognise in the YES group; however, I do see a
>> bunch of "strange" email addresses. I hop all of them use the new group.
>
>For instance:
>Voted YES
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>( . . . )
>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaashit [at] fuckshitpussyfuck.com JOAT
>loves Dick
>
>Yep. That's family friendly, appropriate for all ages.
>
>Kevin



well duuuhh... of course the trolls are gonna vote it in. it's
*perfect* for them. a self righteous self appointed arbiter of
morality and his vanity woodworking group. what a target.

In article <Ffv3d.4102$PZ4.76@trnddc06>,
Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote:
>Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:Xns956A1198277F9bswr607h4
>@130.133.1.4:
>
>> Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote in
>> news:p1u3d.7375$464.2331@trnddc01:
>>
>>> Well, there is Vito and Susan. Is two a group?
>>
>> Don't forget about Ernie and his wife. ;-)
>>
>
>And Bert.

where Bert and Ernie go, you'll also find Big Bird.

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 23:06:13 +0100, LRod
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>An agnostic is an atheist hedging his bets.
>Not mine, but I don't know whose it is.
>
>- -
>LRod



catchy. wrong, though.

Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 2:50am (EDT+4) [email protected] (VK) posted a
whole bunch of stuff not worth wading thru:

ROTFLMAO

The Woodworking Gods also. We've been out of touch for a few days
- but apparently not long enough.

So we just had a RFD, voted to check if we needed a LEAK (we did),
a BM (we didn't), and then decided we'll be out of touch for a couple
more days.

Go outside, find a small rock, wash it clean - then try to suck the
fun out of it.



JOAT
If you believe you can tell me what to do, I believe I can tell you
where to go.

In article <[email protected]>, Chuck
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Moderated newsgroups have been around
> for years, and are well within the bounds of UseNet
> infrastructure...and in THIS instance at least, one is heartily
> recommended.

You'll note, however, that the RFD for a moderated group has been
withdrawn. The latest proposal is simply to create another unmoderated
group that would duplicate rww content.

Too bad the proponents didn't have the guts to take the moderated group
to a vote.

In article <[email protected]>, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

> Great Googly Moogly! It's better than eating yellow snow.

And destined to take the place of the Mud Shark in your mythology!

In article <[email protected]>, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

> Now that you see what they want to do with the parallel group,
> are you (is anyone) really scared that they'll suck away the
> cream of the crop from the Real Wreck(tm)?

They don't have a hope of even getting the latest proposal to a vote,
IMO.

The proposal was florfed from day 1, without demonstrably capable and
trusted moderators.

In article <[email protected]>, Woodchuck Bill
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Damn. It passed. I'm in shock.

I'm not. The current voting process is a sham.

I can write a script that will cast 500 yes, and 500 no votes for every
CFV posted from legitimate email address (in that the ACK won't
bounce). They will all be real votes under the current system.

It's very tempting.

In article <[email protected]>, Woodchuck Bill
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Actually, it is entirely up to the proponents whether it goes to a vote or
> not.

I know. I think Vito will turn out to be too "sensitive" to want to do
it.

> If there are no more RFDs for this proposal, we may be voting on this
> by as early as next week.

I hope so, but doubt it.

In article <[email protected]>, Woodchuck Billd
enough to vote <[email protected]> wrote:

> He would not be moderating it, so why should he be worried? And guys, come
> on, the guy is in a wheelchair. Do we have to tease him? I know it
> shouldn't matter. But I kinda feel bad for the guy. But not bad enough to
> vote "yes", as I would not be reading the group. "Abstain" is the route I
> will be taking.

I'm not teasing him.

I'm voting no on the proposal as it stands, if it goes to a vote, which
I doubt it will.

In article <221020040109379852%[email protected]>, Kevin Craig
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Yep. That's family friendly, appropriate for all ages.

And we all look forward to their first post.

The voting procedure for new groups is a farce. Once you accept that,
it all comes into a meaningless focus.

I really wish Vido had the balls to stick with the moderated proposal.
But he wussed out, like so many cowards... unable to defend what he
thought he believed in. Now he can live with his choice.

In article <[email protected]>, Alan Bierbaum
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I don't see any names that I recognise in the YES group; however, I do see a
> bunch of "strange" email addresses. I hop all of them use the new group.

For instance:
Voted YES
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
( . . . )
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaashit [at] fuckshitpussyfuck.com JOAT
loves Dick

Yep. That's family friendly, appropriate for all ages.

Kevin

In article <[email protected]>, Woodchuck Bill
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Now they're planning to propose more new woodworking groups, and a
> reorganization of rec.woodworking.

And given the farce that the voting procedure has been allowed to
deteriorate to, they'll quite possibly succeed.

Pity.

In article <[email protected]>, Woodchuck Bill
<[email protected]> wrote:

> The system hasn't changed much in 15 years or so

That's quite apparent.

In article <[email protected]>, Woodchuck Bill
<[email protected]> wrote:

> You're an *official* news.groupie now, Dave.

You're quite wrong. I've come to the conclusion that news.groups is a
complete waste of bandwidth.

In article <[email protected]>, Woodchuck Bill
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I don't mean to patronize you.

I've never thought you were patronizing, Bill. Certainly not in this
thread.

> I kinda wish you'd stick around a bit longer
> and help fix things down there.

I simply don't believe that things will be fixed, regardless of who
participates in the discussion.

Given what's considered to be a valid vote, I think it's hopeless.

In article <[email protected]>, Bruce Barnett
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Ah. Can Pagans, atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and Satanists
> post too?

"I've always said there's nothing an agnostic can't accomplish if he
really isn't sure whether or not he believes in anything." -- Monty
Python's Flying Circus

Does anyone have info about the woodworking techniques the Romans used
in building the WoodenCross the Christian hero was executed on ?

Were dovetail joints being used in that era?

I would assume that a simple crosslap joint would hold up well.

Just what us heathens need in life.....moral guidance on the
internet...and i just like to cut up trees !

In article <[email protected]>, Tim Douglass
<[email protected]> wrote:

> "You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full
> of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the
> clue mating dance." -- Attributed by some to Edward Flaherty

Wow! Someone actually stole one of my sigs!

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 09:05:59 -0500, Joe Wells <[email protected]>
wrote:


>
>I subscribe to several alt. newsgroups that have as little, if not less,
>spam and garbage as r.ww. It's entirely possible that my news provider is
>filtering at their server, however.

It is your provider filtering and/or not peering with providers that
allow spaming type activities.


--
news:alt.pagan FAQ at http://www.dmcom.net/bard/altpag.txt
news:alt.religion.wicca FAQ at http://www.dmcom.net/bard/arwfaq2.txt
news:news.groups FAQ at http://www.dmcom.net/bard/ngfaq.txt
Want a new group FAQs http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/ncreate.html

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>On 22 Sep 2004 23:35:31 -0700, [email protected] (Susan
>Welchel) wrote:
>
>>First of all, profanity is the FU** word, the SH** word, the C***
>>word.
>
>so I can call you a self righteous asshole and that's fine?
>

No, that's in the "rude and disrespectful" category. You get points for
accuracy, though, which may redeem you...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 04:39:54 +0000, [email protected] (Bill Aten)
calmly ranted:

> FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
> unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages
>
>Newsgroups line:
>rec.woodworking.all-ages Woodworking for all ages.

A suggestion to the Wreckers:

If you like the idea, vote "Yes."

If you want them out of our hair, vote "Yes".

If you don't care one way or the other, won't go visit, don't
agree with their reasons, don't agree with their morals, don't
want the limitations, etc, just don't vote.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But, only if you have some really -compelling- reason they should
not be able to start their group, should you vote "No."

Live and let live.




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If God approved of nudity, we all would have been born naked.
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----
http://www.diversify.com Your Wild & Woody Website Wonk

On 22 Oct 2004 03:51:59 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Damn. It passed. I'm in shock.

I'm not shocked, I'm just wondering how they expect to keep an
unmoderated group "safe for children"?

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:44:25 GMT, Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> In article <Ffv3d.4102$PZ4.76@trnddc06>,
>> Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>news:Xns956A1198277F9bswr607h4 @130.133.1.4:
>>>
>>>> Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote in
>>>> news:p1u3d.7375$464.2331@trnddc01:
>>>>
>>>>> Well, there is Vito and Susan. Is two a group?
>>>>
>>>> Don't forget about Ernie and his wife. ;-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>And Bert.
>>
>> where Bert and Ernie go, you'll also find Big Bird.
>>
>>
>
> Five.

Three, Sir!

> It's a group!

"What, behind the rabbit?"

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 21:49:23 -0500, Mike <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:32:02 -0700, [email protected] (Bill Aten) wrote:
>
>........
>>
>>Proponent: Vito Kuhn <[email protected]>
>>Proponent: Susan Welchel <[email protected]>
>>Votetaker: Bill Aten <[email protected]>
>>
>
>The new-improved, more sensitive cabal?



evil anti-cabal....

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 18:08:14 GMT, patrick conroy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:26:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
><novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>
>
>>But, only if you have some really -compelling- reason they should
>>not be able to start their group, should you vote "No."
>
> Agreed. I don't buy the dilution argument.

Why don't you go check out alt.genealogy.methods for a good example of
a group created by someone who thought they had a better idea? Yes, it's
alt rather than rec., but it's the first example I can think of of a
group that was very vocally proposed and has since effectively died.

On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:08:05 GMT, patrick conroy <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 30 Sep 2004 18:15:43 GMT, Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Why don't you go check out alt.genealogy.methods for a good example of
>>a group created by someone who thought they had a better idea?

> Sorry, Dave - I'm not following. And I'd prefer to not check out that
> group instead I'd rather ask others (you) what you think happened.

Well, there's a group called soc.genealogy.methods, which is moderated.
The moderator (singular) had some availability problems and the group
sat idle for a while. One person (and her sock-puppet/s) who had
a grudge that goes back years against said moderator decided to make a
big deal about it, and went off and created alt.genealogy.methods with
the hope of it being a place to have those discussions but without the
'interference of an absentee moderator' or whatever her catch-phrase was.

The group was created (being in alt., it was just a matter of constructing
the correct cmsg's), and the group was there. But, there wasn't really
a _need_ for it other than the proponent having an opinion that wasn't
widely shared by participants in the group. To me, that's pretty similar
to the situation we have here.

> I like to consider myself bright enough to change my mind if someone
> "shows me the light".

Well, groups.google.com's archives of the group have it all, but I just
checked 12 articles at random, and didn't find _one_ message which
wasn't crosspsted to at least two other similar groups.

> alt.genealogy.methods
> I see newsgroups as dynamic - people come, people go. If I'm in the
> Elks Club, I've got no beef about a Moose Lodge opening up across the
> street.

Look at the posts, though; they're all crossposts to similar groups.
So, yes there's traffic, but it's all traffic that is on-topic to
_other_ groups. It is, in my opinion, a good example of what happens
when you have two (or more) groups with similar enough content that
people aren't going to decide which to post to, so they'll post to both.
By making it unmoderated, the "no crossposts", "no naughty language or OT
posts" and so on is going to be ineffective at best, and possibly
inviting trolling.

> How can something as inexhaustible as "participation in an internet
> newsgroup" become diluted by another newsgroup? More power to them -
> if it's any good, I'll join. If it's better, I'll switch.

Maybe someday one of these un-needed divisions will work, but I haven't
seen it happen yet. I see "neutral at best" as an end result here,
which makes it hard to want to support it. The fact that the proponents
have been _so_ absent here discussing what they want to do and what the
real reasons are, makes me wonder what they're _really_ up to.

If they want our support, why aren't they here talking about it with us?

Dave Hinz

On 4 Oct 2004 22:28:03 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> I'm amazed at the answers
>> some of these folks are giving in an attempt to justify their
>> closed-mindedness.

> I fully agree. I've read some serious rationalizations here by a few.

Care to say which points you feel fit that category? I'd still like
to hear from the proponents. Where are they?

On 5 Oct 2004 01:19:30 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Prometheus <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> Because the "market" will cause dozens of crossposts a day, and both
>> groups will have to be gone through to follow a single thread of
>> interest.
>
> Crossposting to the wreck is explicitly banned by the charter of the
> soft wreck, IIRC.

Yes, and it's unmoderated. There's no way to enforce it, just like
there's no way to enforce the "no bad language" rules.

I find it interseting that the examples they gave of "bad language"
in the Wreck were mostly a result of our troll infestation. I
can't help but think that the trolls might be _attracted to_ their
unmoderated nicy-nice group rather than honor their request
to stay away. The people who cause trouble like that look for
easy targets, and respect isn't something they have.

On 5 Oct 2004 16:13:24 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote in news:2sfu52F1k4203U1@uni-
> berlin.de:
>
>> I'd still like
>> to hear from the proponents. Where are they?
>
> They posted a bit to the thread in news.groups, but I haven't seen them
> post here. I suppose it has something to do with Vito being so sensitive.

I think that if Vito expects people to support his viewpoint, Vito owes
them his presence and some participation, explaining to them why they
should support him.

On 5 Oct 2004 16:34:48 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote in news:2sfvpaF1k4203U8@uni-
> berlin.de:
>
>> I think that if Vito expects people to support his viewpoint, Vito owes
>> them his presence and some participation, explaining to them why they
>> should support him.
>
> Do you think the proposal is doomed to failure?

No, the proposal may pass. But if Vito's lack of concern in explaining
his proposal is any indication, the _group_ is doomed to failure.
He doesn't even care enough to come here and talk about why it's
a good idea, but we're expected to think he'll be more active
after he gets his group?

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 22:15:18 -0600, Alan Bierbaum <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't see any names that I recognise in the YES group; however, I do see a
> bunch of "strange" email addresses. I hop all of them use the new group.

They won't, it'll just noise up the namespace and confuse people looking
for discussion. Ah well.

Susan Welchel wrote:
>God will forgive sinners if they turn to Jesus.



My God even forgives Christians.

Let me know if you need any introductions.

UA100

On 22 Sep 2004 09:47:42 -0700, [email protected] (Susan
Welchel) wrote:

>They went after Vito like a gang of mad dogs

I don't much care for you either; the "sewer" comparisons, and now
being described as "a gang of mad dogs". I find your patronising
christianity and attitude of moral superiority downright offensive,
second only to your saintly "I have an impairment, so my morality is
implicitly better than yours" attitude.

However this is a question of newsgroup organisation, where such
things are irrelevant. It's still a bad idea, no matter who puts it
forward.

>The abuse hit him like a ton of bricks. He doesn't
>get out very much, so he takes his online life very seriously. Try to
>understand why he lost his enthusiasm.

Try to understand why he's thus not fit to be a moderator.
Try a LiveJournal.

On 20 Sep 2004 10:41:23 -0700, [email protected] (mbrooks) wrote:


>Both of these "problems" are solvable by opening your own message
>board on a web site,

How many web sites are on UseNet? How do you access Wood Central with
Free Agent?

That's like saying, "You can cut down on airline hijackings by
building more railroads." The point is to have a USENET newsgroup
that isn't filled with obnoxious, self-obsessed blowhards who have THE
answer to everything, (and will tell you so, in so many 4-letter
words) as well as keeping out the spammers.

>if you can't be bothered to create filters in
>your news reader. This list of rationales simply hijacks the Usenet
>infrastructure for a private message board run by people who want to
>be top dog without any accountability.

Uh, no, it does no such thing. Moderated newsgroups have been around
for years, and are well within the bounds of UseNet
infrastructure...and in THIS instance at least, one is heartily
recommended. I used to read rcw all the time but gave up on it after
it was taken over by the people and their attendant attitudes who,
oddly enough, are exactly who and what the moderated newsgroup will be
targeting for filtration.

Very often, many of the people who scream and protest against a
moderated newsgroup are those who made the original one intolerable in
the first place.


--
Chuck *#:^)
chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.
<><

September 11, 2001 - Never Forget


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Susan Welchel wrote:

> Second of all, that was posted before Vito's accident when he was a
> different man. That was before he rediscovered his faith in God.
> People are allowed to repent. God will forgive sinners if they turn to
> Jesus. Even in the old days, Vito didn't use language like some of the
> wreckers do. You will not find The FU** word, the SH** word, or the
> C*** word in any of his posts. Dig away.

You seem to be implying that use of the FU** word, the SH** word, or
the C*** word, is a sin. If you ARE saying that, I'd like to
see evidence.
--
This account is subject to a persistent MS Blaster and SWEN attack.
I think I've got the problem resolved, but, if you E-mail me
and it bounces, a second try might work.
However, please reply in newsgroup.

Unisaw A100 wrote:

> Susan Welchel wrote:
> >First of all, profanity is the FU** word, the SH** word, the C***
> >word.
>
> I think I know the FU** word and the SH** word, but what is
> the C*** word? Is the second letter R, O or U?
>
> UA100

Are we playing "hangman"?

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA
(Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)

Greetings and Salutations...

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:18:22 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 22 Oct 2004 03:51:59 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>[email protected] (Bill Aten) wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> RESULT
>>> unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages passes 283:93
>>
>>Damn. It passed. I'm in shock.
>
> Interesting perusing the list of those voting for it -- Man in the
>Doorway?

Well, there are something like 80,000 newgroups in Usenet...
and I don't see why having one more will make any serious difference.
Also, it is a pretty impressively small number of folks that can
create one. Consider that there are thousands (if not tens of
thousands) of people that read THIS newsgroup around the world...yet
only 373 cared enough to vote yea or nay on this one.
Remember...simply adding another group to post to does NOT
mean that rec.woodworking is going to be canceled and vanish.
In any case, the bottom line is that those folks that find
this too difficult a forum to deal with now have another place to go.
I will be interested to see if there is any traffic there at all.
I have tested the waters in a number of Ford-related groups, and,
found that in many, the only folks that post there are the spammers
that hit ALL the groups. So...post and read there if you want to...
or not...if you don't.

Regards
Dave Mundt

On 22 Sep 2004 00:23:56 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Why would you care if you wouldn't be reading the group?

Dilution of the real group.

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 20:32:02 -0700, [email protected] (Bill Aten) wrote:

........
>
>Proponent: Vito Kuhn <[email protected]>
>Proponent: Susan Welchel <[email protected]>
>Votetaker: Bill Aten <[email protected]>
>

The new-improved, more sensitive cabal?

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 21:18:22 -0700, Mark & Juanita
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 22 Oct 2004 03:51:59 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>[email protected] (Bill Aten) wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> RESULT
>>> unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages passes 283:93
>>
>>Damn. It passed. I'm in shock.
>
> Interesting perusing the list of those voting for it -- Man in the
>Doorway?


Charlie Delf? <G>

Barry

On Fri, 01 Oct 2004 23:46:14 GMT, [email protected] (Doug Miller)
wrote:

>
>
>In article <[email protected]>, patrick conroy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>I see newsgroups as dynamic - people come, people go. If I'm in the
>>Elks Club, I've got no beef about a Moose Lodge opening up across the
>>street.
>
>No, but you might beef about somebody trying to open up another Elks Club
>right across the street. IMO that's a bit closer analogy.

Hmmm. Good one. I'll have to "ruminate" on that one... :)

Woodchuck Bill wrote:
> [email protected] (Bill Aten) wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>
>> RESULT
>> unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages passes 283:93
>
>
> Damn. It passed. I'm in shock.
>

So what's the problem it passed. Big deal. Does that mean everyone
that knows anything about woodworking will leave this group and go over
to the new one - Not Likely.

I'm relatively new to woodworking less than 2 years since I retired and
although I have been messing with computers for over 20 years I have
never had much need or use for newsgroups over those years. I
subscribed to this one and a wine making one about 6 months ago. I will
likely also subscribe to the new one at least for a while. If it proves
useless I will dump it.

I joined this one because I know there are a lot of people out there
with a lot of information they are willing to share and I have a lot to
learn. Occasionally a topic will come up when I can help, I spent
nearly 30 years in a Nuclear plant as an Industrial Electrician and
Electronics technician. I took up woodworking when I retired and it is
a great way to keep busy and the mind active.

I've found my newsreader - outlook express only downloads the headers so
if I see an OT post that doesn't interest me I use the most important
tool in my arsenal - my brain. OT political - likely some zealot who
figures if we don't agree with him we are lost - pass on to the next
thread. Coarse language - big deal- As a Christian I try not to use it,
occasionally I do, but I have realized that if you do it's not my
problem so it doesn't really bother me.

Basicily what I am saying is a new news group great. Hopefully there
will be new people we can learn from or help if not it will likely die a
slow death, why worry about it.

Rick

Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote in message news:<221020040014402799%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca>...
> In article <221020040109379852%[email protected]>, Kevin Craig
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Yep. That's family friendly, appropriate for all ages.
>
> And we all look forward to their first post.
>
> The voting procedure for new groups is a farce. Once you accept that,
> it all comes into a meaningless focus.

Absolutely. Since usenet is not a centralized database, there is no
governing body, just self-appointed gods, [snicker]. It's quite
funny.

On 22 Sep 2004 23:35:31 -0700, [email protected] (Susan
Welchel) wrote:

>"Damn" is a grey word, and depending on how it's used determines how bad it is.

So what age is it suitable for ? You're putting forward an "all ages"
proposal, and now you're backtracking that _some_ profanity is OK
because it's not so bad after all.

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:26:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 04:39:54 +0000, [email protected] (Bill Aten)
>calmly ranted:
>
>> FIRST CALL FOR VOTES (of 2)
>> unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages
>>
>>Newsgroups line:
>>rec.woodworking.all-ages Woodworking for all ages.
>
>A suggestion to the Wreckers:
>
>If you like the idea, vote "Yes."
>
>If you want them out of our hair, vote "Yes".
>
>If you don't care one way or the other, won't go visit, don't
>agree with their reasons, don't agree with their morals, don't
>want the limitations, etc, just don't vote.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>But, only if you have some really -compelling- reason they should
>not be able to start their group, should you vote "No."
>
>Live and let live.

So your vote is for confusion and duplication? If this was for
anything other than just a rec.woodworking duplicate your point would
be valid - but it is to create an *identical* newsgroup! No
difference. That benefits nobody. It is a bad idea and needs to be
rejected on that basis. If there is someone who wants to create a
valid and reasonable proposal (such as the original moderated proposal
only with a better moderation team) then *that* would be properly
handled the way you describe. Saying "let them do something wrong, bad
and injurious in a small way to our online world just to get them out
of our hair" is an irresponsible attitude.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:36:39 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
>
> >Susan Welchel <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>The decent folk will be attracted to the all-ages
> >>group, and the rest of them can stay where they are.
> >
> > What are you going to do when someone says stuff like
> > "Damn it, you're right about that technique",
>
>
> You mean like this ?
>
> > From: VK ([email protected])
> >No wonder all those free-standing boxes are so damn heavy.

First of all, profanity is the FU** word, the SH** word, the C***
word. You know. Stuff you can't say on radio or network television. An
occasional slip like that would not be awful. "Damn" is a grey word,
and depending on how it's used determines how bad it is. The way Vito
used it there is not too bad, though I am still uncomfortable with it.

Second of all, that was posted before Vito's accident when he was a
different man. That was before he rediscovered his faith in God.
People are allowed to repent. God will forgive sinners if they turn to
Jesus. Even in the old days, Vito didn't use language like some of the
wreckers do. You will not find The FU** word, the SH** word, or the
C*** word in any of his posts. Dig away.

On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 07:23:49 -0500, Conan the Librarian
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Just say (tmPL) I can't decide whether we need to get out the
>Klown Hammuh or the Klue Bat.
>
I really don't thnk anything beyond the industry-standard 'cluebyfour'
is indicated. "Do it with wood!" <grin>

On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:50:52 +0000, [email protected] (VK)
scribbled yet another RFD:

Vito:

So you wanna be sheltered from potty mouth words, "commercial" posts
and political discussions. There is a much easier solution than
forming a new group, especially an unmoderated one which will still be
subject to all that, despite whatever you put in the charter.

Doug Miller & Robert Bonomi have produced great sets of filters which
they have graciously made available to all wreckers. David Eisan has
written a little FAQ for us non-geeks on how to use nfilter

For Doug's filters he says:

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

Robert's Filters and download of the nfilter program are at:

http://www.r-bonomi.com/cgi-bin/nfilter_home

For David's FAQ, DAGS on
"How to filter out the Crap" & "David Eisan"

To their filters you can add "ebay", "auction", FA, FS, for sale, OT
Robin Lee, Steve Knight, Ed Bennett, Owen Lowe, Jim Ray, Jon Down,
etc..

Bingo, there you have it! Your kindergarden wreck, safe for all those
five-year-old woodworkers. And you don't dilute the wreck for the rest
of us.

If you don't like that, you could set up a mirror of rec.woodworking,
something like the following web site, and you could delete any post
you object to and moderate it to your heart's content.

http://www.woodworking-forum.com/

linux_lad has even offered to help you do it.

Luigi
who remembers getting scolded when he was 5 years old for using one of
his cabinetmaker father's favourite expressions and totally
scandalising a nun later on by using another of his father's milder
imprecations.

Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html
www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/humour.html

Susan Welchel wrote:
>First of all, profanity is the FU** word, the SH** word, the C***
>word.

I think I know the FU** word and the SH** word, but what is
the C*** word? Is the second letter R, O or U?

UA100

On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 21:19:09 -0600, Dave Balderstone
<dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Tim Douglass
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full
>> of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the
>> clue mating dance." -- Attributed by some to Edward Flaherty
>
>Wow! Someone actually stole one of my sigs!

It's just too good. I couldn't resist.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Honestly, he's pretty normal for a kicker."
-- Mike Holmgren about Josh Brown (Oct. 2003)

Joe,
It's none of my business and I could care less about a new "softer =
wRECk" so why is everyone pissing on this guy's efforts ? I don't =
understand why there is not room for a "cleaner" woodworking forum. I =
can understand why someone would take offence to the numerous insults =
about the wRECk in the post just not the idea.
Puff

"Joe Wells" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 20 Sep 2004 02:50:52 +0000, VK wrote:
>=20
> I've gotta say, Vito, this is the most comprehensive troll ever.
>=20
> > 1-Change of name: rec.woodworking.moderated to =
rec.woodworking.all-ages
>=20
> "Because I'm gonna start my own kingdom somewhere!"
>=20
> > 3-New proponent comes aboard
>=20
> I'm not seeing a new proponent here, but there's so much trash to sort
> through, it's difficult to tell.
>=20
> > Newsgroup line:
> > rec.woodworking.all-ages Woodworking for all ages.
>=20
> Because children should be playing with sharp tools.
>=20
> > RATIONALE: rec.woodworking.all-ages
> >=20
> > This group is proposed as a family-oriented
>=20
> Not my family.
>=20
> > global forum for the
> > discussion of woodworking topics by people of all ages.
>=20
> "As long as I'm not offended by that discussion in any way. All posts =
will
> be crossreferenced against a database of naughty words, phrases, and
> concepts. All posts must be in American, since I don't know any =
naughty
> foreign words."
>=20
> > The group is a
> > subgroup of rec.woodworking (The Wreck, as it is commonly referred =
to by
> > subscribers), which is averaging more than 10,000 posts per month in =
2004.
> >=20
> > Reasons for creating an all-ages subgroup of rec.woodworking:
> >=20
> > 1-To offer an alternative to the only Big-8 general woodworking =
group,
> > rec.woodworking, which has proven to be an unsafe environment for =
children
>=20
> Unsafe for children? Who lets their children read Usenet unattended? =
Or,
> indeed browse the web? And just how many children do you think are =
heavily
> into woodworking? Elementary schools don't teach it. Children who are
> interested in woodworking are getting their information from their
> parents, grandparents, and other close adults. The likelyhood of a 10 =
year
> old popping on r.ww to ask about handplanes or reading grain is =
awfully
> small. And if he did, he'd be welcomed with open arms.
>=20
> > 2-To offer woodworkers a higher signal to noise ratio than =
rec.woodworking
> > provides
>=20
> Really? How are you going to manage that? You've given up on =
moderation.
> What other resources do you have to enforce your views of right and =
wrong
> upon the potential r.ww.a-a community?
> =20
> > The current rec.woodworking group has no charter, and therefore it =
has
> > no rules. There are too many political debates, flaming wars, =
personal
> > insults, for-sale signs, Ebay links, and endless other forms of
> > non-woodworking posts in rec.woodworking by many people's standards.
> > This new group will give woodworkers the option of subscribing to a
> > group that has a charter, and therefore has a set of house rules for =
the
> > community to base a standard upon.
>=20
> Which will be utterly unenforceable.
>=20
> > In recent times, the tone and language in rec.woodworking has =
greatly
> > degenerated from what it once was. The usage of=20
>=20
> "my definition of"
>=20
> > vulgar language is not
> > uncommon, and this is unacceptable
>=20
> "to me"
>=20
> > in a public forum for an all-ages
> > activity. This language is not limited to dedicated flamers and =
trolls,
> > but it is also used by many of the core participants of =
rec.woodworking,
> > some of whom have participated in this RFD. Take for example, this
> > thread about the history of the "F Word":
> >=20
> > http://tinyurl.com/53hsv
> > http://tinyurl.com/6p894
> > http://tinyurl.com/4t856
> >=20
> > The above URLs are links to Google Groups archives. The thread was
> > broken into three sub-threads due to subject changes. What does this
> > subject have to do with woodworking?
>=20
> Nothing. It is the sort of thing that well-adjusted adults without =
guilty
> consciences casually discuss. You know, members of a community that =
are
> comfortable with one another.
>=20
> > Also have a look at these Google queries for some popular cuss words =
in
> > The Wreck:
> >=20
> > http://tinyurl.com/47ryd
>=20
> Well, gee willikers (is that one OK, or would it violate your holy
> charter?). Looks to me like most of those hits were clear and obvious =
spam
> or trolls. Other than the dreaded "F Word" thread.
>=20
> > http://tinyurl.com/63r5b
> > http://tinyurl.com/42bgj
> > http://tinyurl.com/6v5se
> >=20
> > Posts such are these are disgusting, low-class, and repulsive. It is =
not
> > the kind of language that young children should be exposed to.
>=20
> "Yes, we must Save The Children. Please help us Save The Children."
>=20
> > This group was originally proposed as a moderated newsgroup. In this
> > RFD, the status has been changed to unmoderated due to objections =
raised
> > in previous RFDs. While an unmoderated group cannot totally keep =
every
> > unwanted post out of the group, at least we can establish a =
community
> > standard for participants to comply with. Violations will not be
> > censored by a moderator, but the community itself will come together =
to
> > help keep the litter out of the neighborhood.
>=20
> "Even though we have absolutely no mechanism for doing so."
>=20
> > Initial Newsgroup Web Site:
> >=20
> > http://www.softwreck.shop.ms
> >=20
> >=20
> > CHARTER: rec.woodworking.all-ages
> >=20
> > The Soft Wreck - rec.woodworking.all-ages
> >=20
> > The purpose of this newsgroup is to facilitate open discussion of
> > woodworking in a family-safe environment. This group is open to
> > woodworking enthusiasts of all ages, genders, creeds, backgrounds, =
and
> > nationalities. All topics related to woodworking and related tools =
are
> > welcome.
> >=20
> > Posts to this newsgroup should be limited to the topic of =
woodworking
> > and related tools. Woodturning and carving posts are also on-topic.
> > Please do not initiate off-topic threads. If you are participating =
in a
> > thread that is going in the off-topic direction, please add [OT] to =
the
> > subject of that thread.
>=20
> Gee, we're already doing that at r.ww...
>=20
> > Posts containing profanity and adult content are prohibited. In =
general,
> > this means any language or content that is not appropriate for young
> > children, as this is a family forum. Please do not write anything =
that
> > you would not say in a classroom of kindergarten children.
>=20
> And there you have it. *Kindergarten children*. My son is in =
kindergarten
> and I certainly wouldn't allow him to read Usenet, even your proposed
> group. Even if *he could read*. Moreover, he barely knows what =
woodworking
> is. Kids that young shouldn't be using sharp tools yet. Their motor =
skills
> aren't ready for it. You're proposing creating a group for an audience
> that does not exist.
>=20
> > Please be friendly and helpful to all newsgroup participants. If you
> > have a disagreement with another poster, please take the high road =
and
> > maintain a civil tone with that person. Posts which obviously have =
the
> > primary intent of trolling, flaming, stalking or attacking the =
character
> > of another poster are prohibited.
>=20
> Because we all know that trolls and flamers read the charter before
> posting.
>=20
> <snip more pap>=20
>=20
> No.
>=20
> --=20
> Joe Wells
>

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 13:25:04 -0500, Conan the Librarian
<[email protected]> calmly ranted:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:16:12 -0500, Conan the Librarian
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> The Central Scrutinizer
>>
>> shoulda guessed you would be a FZ fan...
>
> Should I take that as a compliment? :-)

Great Googly Moogly! It's better than eating yellow snow.


----------------------------------------------------------
* Michelangelo would have made ** Website Programming
* better time with a roller. ** http://diversify.com
----------------------------------------------------------

In article <[email protected]>, "Puff Griffis" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Joe,
> It's none of my business and I could care less about a new "softer =
>wRECk" so why is everyone pissing on this guy's efforts

You realize, of course, that your own post would be impermissible under Vito's
proposed charter, due to your vulgar language. Doesn't that piss you off?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:24:07 +0100, Andy Dingley
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:36:39 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
>
>>Susan Welchel <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>The decent folk will be attracted to the all-ages
>>>group, and the rest of them can stay where they are.
>>
>> What are you going to do when someone says stuff like
>> "Damn it, you're right about that technique",
>
>
>You mean like this ?
>
>> From: VK ([email protected])
>>No wonder all those free-standing boxes are so damn heavy.
>
>http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&th=f784ca5236752d23&seekm=1424f055.0206132118.10c5586c%40posting.google.com#link7

Oh, that's priceless. I think I'll recruit friends who don't even read
usenet to vote no.

Tim Douglass

http://www.DouglassClan.com

"Honestly, he's pretty normal for a kicker."
-- Mike Holmgren about Josh Brown (Oct. 2003)

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 09:26:51 -0700, Larry Jaques
<novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:


>But, only if you have some really -compelling- reason they should
>not be able to start their group, should you vote "No."
>
>Live and let live.

Agreed. I don't buy the dilution argument.

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 12:32:02 -0400, Tom Watson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 09:25:14 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 08:16:12 -0500, Conan the Librarian
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> The Central Scrutinizer
>>
>>shoulda guessed you would be a FZ fan...
>
>
>
> "The WHITE ZONE is for loading and unloading only..."
>

There's a problem in the cockpit.

The cockpit? What's that?

It's a little room in the front where the pilot sits, but that's not
important right now.

On 22 Sep 2004 01:17:56 GMT, Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]>
wrote:

>But you said you might trust someone else to moderate the soft wreck.

The fact that I might trust other people to be better moderators than
the self-selecting egotists does _not_ imply any support for
moderation in principle.

> Which is it? Are you against the new group?

Which new group ? Vito clearly just wants to make a new group and
will keep posting new RFDs until he gets his way. Hopefully he'll be
off somewhere with rec.pets.satanism before one passes.

> Or are you against the originally proposed moderators?

Yes, both them and their ideas for pointless new groups.

> Do you have any constructive suggestions for the
>proponents on how they might achieve their goal?

Learn how to use a killfile. That removes BAD and most of the problems
from the existing wreck.

> Or will you simply be against anything they propose?

As all their suggestions so far have basically been pointless
exercises, with no consistency other than their desire to appoint
themselves in charge of something, then that seems likely.

Of course they _might_ have an idea that's worth looking at, and I
wouldn't rule it out, but it seems unlikely so far.

--
Smert' spamionam

What did happen to vito...??? mjh

--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"Susan Welchel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Andy Dingley <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:36:39 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >Susan Welchel <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>The decent folk will be attracted to the all-ages
>> >>group, and the rest of them can stay where they are.
>> >
>> > What are you going to do when someone says stuff like
>> > "Damn it, you're right about that technique",
>>
>>
>> You mean like this ?
>>
>> > From: VK ([email protected])
>> >No wonder all those free-standing boxes are so damn heavy.
>
> First of all, profanity is the FU** word, the SH** word, the C***
> word. You know. Stuff you can't say on radio or network television. An
> occasional slip like that would not be awful. "Damn" is a grey word,
> and depending on how it's used determines how bad it is. The way Vito
> used it there is not too bad, though I am still uncomfortable with it.
>
> Second of all, that was posted before Vito's accident when he was a
> different man. That was before he rediscovered his faith in God.
> People are allowed to repent. God will forgive sinners if they turn to
> Jesus. Even in the old days, Vito didn't use language like some of the
> wreckers do. You will not find The FU** word, the SH** word, or the
> C*** word in any of his posts. Dig away.

On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:36:39 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:

>Susan Welchel <[email protected]> wrote:
>>The decent folk will be attracted to the all-ages
>>group, and the rest of them can stay where they are.
>
> What are you going to do when someone says stuff like
> "Damn it, you're right about that technique",


You mean like this ?

> From: VK ([email protected])
>No wonder all those free-standing boxes are so damn heavy.

http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&frame=right&th=f784ca5236752d23&seekm=1424f055.0206132118.10c5586c%40posting.google.com#link7

What would be a great loss, the margereen ???

--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"Tom Watson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 21:11:37 GMT, "Beej-in-GA"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Dave Balderstone" <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote in message
>>news:210920041507073168%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca...
>>> In article <[email protected]>, Larry Jaques
>>> <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Great Googly Moogly! It's better than eating yellow snow.
>>>
>>> And destined to take the place of the Mud Shark in your mythology!
>>
>>At St. Alfonso's Pancake Breakfast?! Was it you who stole the Margereen?!
>>
>
>
> This is something that I love about the Wreck, and something that
> would totally be disallowed under the proposed alternative.
>
> It would be a great loss, IMHO.
>
>
> I understand that the NG's would be parallel and
> non-confrontational...
>
>
> ...but the Wreck, as it exists, is, in many ways, perfect.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Tom.
>
> Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.)
> tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
> http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1

"Woodchuck Bill" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave Hinz <[email protected]> wrote in news:2tsni3F2225qjU2@uni-
> berlin.de:
>
>> They won't, it'll just noise up the namespace and confuse people looking
>> for discussion. Ah well.
>
> Now they're planning to propose more new woodworking groups, and a
> reorganization of rec.woodworking.
>
> --
> Bill

I didn't vote because it IS a free country and they have the right to start
a news group. If they try to alter rec.woodworking, I will definitely vote,
and solicit opposing votes from as many people as I can find.

Bob

Have all you guys run out of projects?

rhg

Scentless Aprentice wrote:

> Does anyone have info about the woodworking techniques the Romans used
> in building the WoodenCross the Christian hero was executed on ?
>
> Were dovetail joints being used in that era?
>
> I would assume that a simple crosslap joint would hold up well.
>
> Just what us heathens need in life.....moral guidance on the
> internet...and i just like to cut up trees !
>

what about woodworking sexual activities.......mjh

--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"Conan the Librarian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Watson wrote:
>
>> [CENSORED]
>
> I'm sorry to inform you that under the new charter for
> rec.no-fun.woodworking, your post has been determined to be inappropriate
> for certain:
>
> (check all that apply)
>
> ___ age-groups
>
> _X_ IQ percentiles
>
>
> This is due to excessive:
>
> _X_ humor
>
> ___ vulgarity
>
> _X_ individual thought
>
> ___ political content
>
>
> Therefore it has been assimilated.
>
> Please rest assured that we know what is best for you.
>
> That is all ...
>
>
> The Central Scrutinizer

Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote in news:Xns956A1198277F9bswr607h4
@130.133.1.4:

> Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:p1u3d.7375$464.2331@trnddc01:
>
>> Well, there is Vito and Susan. Is two a group?
>
> Don't forget about Ernie and his wife. ;-)
>

And Bert.

I bin around here a while, who the heck is this vito character, never came
across him [or her] before. I know it's a poor choice of words....mjh

--
http://members.tripod.com/mikehide2
"Woodchuck Billd enough to vote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave Balderstone <dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca> wrote in
> news:220920040805120231%dave@N_O_T_T_H_I_S.balderstone.ca:
>
>>> Actually, it is entirely up to the proponents whether it goes to a
>>> vote or not.
>>
>> I know. I think Vito will turn out to be too "sensitive" to want to do
>> it.
>
> He would not be moderating it, so why should he be worried? And guys, come
> on, the guy is in a wheelchair. Do we have to tease him? I know it
> shouldn't matter. But I kinda feel bad for the guy. But not bad enough to
> vote "yes", as I would not be reading the group. "Abstain" is the route I
> will be taking.
>
> --
> Bill

[email protected] (Robert Bonomi) wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> In article <Ffv3d.4102$PZ4.76@trnddc06>,
> Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote:
>>Woodchuck Bill <[email protected]> wrote in
>>news:Xns956A1198277F9bswr607h4 @130.133.1.4:
>>
>>> Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote in
>>> news:p1u3d.7375$464.2331@trnddc01:
>>>
>>>> Well, there is Vito and Susan. Is two a group?
>>>
>>> Don't forget about Ernie and his wife. ;-)
>>>
>>
>>And Bert.
>
> where Bert and Ernie go, you'll also find Big Bird.
>
>

Five. It's a group!

In article <[email protected]>, "Arthur L. Rubin" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Susan Welchel wrote:
>
>> Second of all, that was posted before Vito's accident when he was a
>> different man. That was before he rediscovered his faith in God.
>> People are allowed to repent. God will forgive sinners if they turn to
>> Jesus. Even in the old days, Vito didn't use language like some of the
>> wreckers do. You will not find The FU** word, the SH** word, or the
>> C*** word in any of his posts. Dig away.
>
>You seem to be implying that use of the FU** word, the SH** word, or
>the C*** word, is a sin. If you ARE saying that, I'd like to
>see evidence.

I may be throwing gasoline on a fire here, but...

"neither the swindler, the drunkard, the foul-mouthed or the rapacious shall
have any share in the kingdom of God." [ I Corinthians 6:10]

"Let not your mouth form the habit of swearing...There are words which merit
death; may they never be heard among Jacob's heirs. For all such words are
foreign to the devout, who do not wallow in sin. Let not your mouth become
used to coarse talk, for in it lies sinful matter...A man who has the habit of
abusive language will never mature in character as long as he lives." [Sirach
23:9,12-13,15]



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
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You got that right. I think their big fear is that if there were a
meaningful alternative their afraid no one would show up to listen to their
rants. They shouldn't fear, there is no shortage of people who like that
sort of stuff.


> Very often, many of the people who scream and protest against a
> moderated newsgroup are those who made the original one intolerable in
> the first place.
>
>
> --
> Chuck *#:^)
> chaz3913(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
> Anti-spam sig: please remove "NO SPAM" from e-mail address to reply.
> <><
>
> September 11, 2001 - Never Forget
>
>
> -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
> -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"John McCoy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Doug Miller) wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
<Huge Snip>
::::Waves white flag pokes hat over edge of trench, waits for hat to be
shot:::
Look Fellas, Seems like this crap happens every four years or so. There
was talk then I think about splitting off another group right? Never
happened. Seems the majority of political discussion died down after the
election. A few die hards (Guilty as charged in some cases!) would post
something every now and then, but that is easily ignored and/or filtered. I
wouldn't worry about it.
My 2 cents' worth,
Beej
::::Ducks back down and tries to pull the trench in after him:::

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Susan Welchel) wrote:

>First of all, profanity is the FU** word, the SH** word, the C***
>word.

Better check your dictionary, Susan. Those are _vulgarities_.

"Damn", "G**damn", and "Hell" are profanities: "Profane: characterized by
irreverence for God or sacred things."

>You know. Stuff you can't say on radio or network television.

So things like "what a dumba**" or "you bet your a**" would be ok, huh? You
can say those on the radio, or on network TV. Those didn't used to be
permitted, I wish they still weren't, but that's the way it is.

>An
>occasional slip like that would not be awful. "Damn" is a grey word,
>and depending on how it's used determines how bad it is. The way Vito
>used it there is not too bad, though I am still uncomfortable with it.
>
>Second of all, that was posted before Vito's accident when he was a
>different man. That was before he rediscovered his faith in God.
>People are allowed to repent. God will forgive sinners if they turn to
>Jesus. Even in the old days, Vito didn't use language like some of the
>wreckers do. You will not find The FU** word, the SH** word, or the
>C*** word in any of his posts. Dig away.

That's fine -- I'm right glad to hear it. But that does not in any way qualify
him, or you, to moderate a newsgroup. You still haven't answered _any_ of the
myriad objections that have been raised to the idea of having the two of you
as moderators.

BTW -- it appears from the previous discussions that you and Vito are sharing
living quarters. It further appears, from the difference in surnames, that you
and Vito are not married. Isn't this a bit odd for two professing born-again
Christians?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

I don't see any names that I recognise in the YES group; however, I do see a
bunch of "strange" email addresses. I hop all of them use the new group.

--
Alan Bierbaum

Web Site: http://www.calanb.com
Current project: http://home.comcast.net/~cabierbaum/

"Bill Aten" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> RESULT
> unmoderated group rec.woodworking.all-ages passes 283:93
>
> Voting closed at 23:59:59 UTC, 21 Oct 2004.
>
snip
> Voted YES
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> 0000000000000000000.usenet-voter [at] votes.cc Wayne J.
Stern
> 727r34q02 [at] sneakemail.com Lewis
Statler
> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaashit [at] fuckshitpussyfuck.com JOAT loves
Dick
> aaabbbccc [at] netcop.com BAD's
Revenge
> aames [at] grungecafe.com Tommy
Aames
> aarod [at] wicked-bitch.zzn.com Lynne
Aarod
> abdulahmed4 [at] maktoob.com Abdul
Ahmed IV
> abw [at] eid.com Alexandria B.
Wojciechowski
> adamson [at] idxc.org Reginald
Adamson
> al-mazroa [at] maktoob.com Adnan
Al-Mazroa
> alberta [at] grafxhousenetwork.net Mindy
Alberta
> alfredo [at] stromboli.uni.cc Alfredo
Stromboli
> alfredomartinez510 [at] hotmail.com Alfredo
Martinez
> alicia [at] 6k2.com Alicia
Brownstone
snip
> boycrazyfaggot [at] backstreetboysclub.com Maurice
Queen
> bradley_wolfen [at] yahoo.com Bradley
Wolfen
> bruno [at] stromboli.uni.cc Bruno
Stromboli
> buellrider [at] emailgroups.net Heather
Mullahey
> bulldog [at] smapxsmap.net John
Asaki
> bunghole53 [at] lycos.com Lucia
Vega
> burtlovasik [at] yahoo.com Burt
Lovasik
snip
> gt [at] whoever.com Glenn
Tomas
> gussauros [at] fastimap.com Gus
Sauros
> h.roxanne [at] uku.co.uk Roxanne
Hogan
> hans.sluzeb [at] atlas.cz Hans
Sluzeb
> harcourt [at] frenchclub.zzn.com Frasier
Harcourt
> harry.jaques [at] aggressive.com Harry
Jaques
>
myrnacarson@abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijk.
com
> Myrna
Carson
> hillary_ardschlock [at] yahoo.com Hillary
Ardschlock
snip
> puppyloverpsychobitch [at] yahoo.com Allister
Crawthorne
> queenie388 [at] lycos.com Stephanie
Hasselhov
> quincy.fuscienne [at] australia.edu Quincy
Fuscienne
> r2g5t [at] u2club.com Miles
Lincoln
> ragmuffins [at] linuxmail.org Luke
Phyllis
> rainer [at] ezc.info Henry
Rainer
> ramirovialpando [at] hotmail.com Ramiro
Vialpando
> raylene.b [at] Alice-Cooper.zzn.com Raylene
Bossi
snip
> xballer [at] ballerstatus.net Dom
Reinoso
> xboxgamer [at] uku.co.uk Charlene
Smithers
> xiang.tai [at] Taiwanese.zzn.com Xiang
Tai
> zoophobia [at] linuxmail.org Howard C.
Johnston
> ztbs [at] scientist.com Leroy
Flambendt
> zztop [at] yummy.org Roger
Bonomi
>
> Voted NO
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> abartel [at] fairwayford.ca Allan
Bartel
> akgm [at] austin.rr.com Gary
Milliorn
> andy [at] andyjeffries.co.uk Andy
Jeffries
> arfenarf [at] hotmail.com KW
Brown
> bakaatz [at] anybody.com
bakaatz
> balsapilot1 [at] yahoo.com Ed
Kristofferson
> bmailman [at] sfo.com Brian
Mailman
> Bob.Hutch [at] verizon.net Bob
Hutch
> bridgerb [at] cox.net
bridger
> brysonwilma [at] sbcglobal.net Bryson
Allen
> cabierbaum [at] comcast.net Alan
Bierbaum
snip

In article <[email protected]>, patrick conroy <[email protected]> wrote:

>But, why just not let the market decide?
>If the new newsgroup sucks, it will wither and die, right?

Yes, it will. And then it will sit there, occupying name space until the end
of time, collecting nothing but spam posts. It's *very* difficult to get rid
of a group once it's created.
>
>Did "Fox" dilute NBC, ABC, CBS?
>Or was is generally accepted as a win for the TV viewing public(*)?

Generally accepted as a win, IMO, but (again IMO) that was because it added
some variety to the existing fare. The proposed new newsgroup will add
nothing. And hence it's useless. Worse than useless, actually, for the reasons
I noted previously.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter
by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com
You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

Lobby Dosser <[email protected]> wrote in
news:p1u3d.7375$464.2331@trnddc01:

> Well, there is Vito and Susan. Is two a group?

Don't forget about Ernie and his wife. ;-)

--
Bill

DJ Delorie <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> The
> correct way is to propose that the existing rec.woodworking be
> moderated

That is no longer permitted.

--
Bill

[email protected] (J T) wrote in news:20615-414F245A-197@storefull-
3155.bay.webtv.net:

> Mon, Sep 20, 2004, 2:50am (EDT+4) [email protected] (VK) posted a
> whole bunch of stuff not worth wading thru:
>
> ROTFLMAO
>

Somehow, ROTFLM_O just doesn't seem the same, does it?

Patriarch