flat bottom forstner bits

Darnist thing I saw was a Satellite tech do is drill through a metal
building with a high speed flat drill used for wood. I thought I'd see
metal snagging easy. Cut nice. I figure a toothed Forstner drill instead.

Martin

On 3/30/2016 3:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 12:40:58 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
>> On 2016-03-30, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 3/29/2016 12:57 PM, notbob wrote:
>>>> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
>>>> held drill motor. That I know, for a fact!
>>
>>> "FACT": know what you're talking before showing your ignorance.
>>
>> I apologize fer applying my knowledge of metalworking to your world of
>> woodworking. I spoke too soon and spoke from having very little
>> real-world knowledge of woodworking. Obviously, they are not the same
>> and I was wrong. But, I am trying to learn. Patience, please.
>>
>> As fer "showing ... ignorance", hey, I can stand proud with the best
>> of 'em. ;)
>>
>> nb
>
> The problem is that your statement does not apply to metal working either.
>
> You said:
>
> "Using a hole saw to make a doorknob hole ina door. I see yer point
> about using the hole saw in wood. Never happen in metal. "
>
> I have used hole saws in a hand held drill to bore holes in metal countless
> times. I even posted a video of a guy using a cordless drill to bore a hole
> in a fairly thick piece of steel.
>
> The only "fact" we can state is that not everything can be brought to
> a drill press. Some work must be done on site regardless of whether
> it's wood, metal, glass, plastic, whatever.
>

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 2:48:43 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-29, Puckdropper <puckdropper> wrote:
>
> > I put my Forstners in the handheld drill without a second thought.
>
> The larger the diameter, the greater the problem. Yer arm, yer
> choice.
>
> Apparently, I'm still thinking old school metalworking.
> I have a 1/2" drive Milwaukee drill motor. Max 400 rpm, so
> it's high torque and no clutch. I was cutting concrete with a
> homemade 1-1/2" bore cutter bit. The cutter hit an I-beam and the
> drill motor tore itself outta my hands (trigger lock on) and didn't
> stop until the drill motor had wrapped itself in its own power cord
> and ripped the cord completely off the unit.
>
> > I have taken to drilling with the drill/driver clutch set to one notch
> > below the maximum position.
>
> Using a hole saw to make a doorknob hole ina door. I see yer point
> about using the hole saw in wood. Never happen in metal.

Are you saying you would never use a hole saw with a hand held drill
in metal?

Man, you must really subscribe to the old school methods.

Here, take a lesson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aj12WdVhOCc

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 8:08:18 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-30, Mike Marlow <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Tell you what - I'm willing to bury the hatchet and start from the
> > beginning, if you are. Chock it up to just the way shit flows
> > sometimes, and put it behind us.
> >
> > Does that work for you?
>
> Like WD40! (jes kidding)
>
> I'll try and ameliorate my delivery, too. No more "anal" remarks
> --which I'm sure didn't thrill the true WW masters in this group-- and
> I'll try and never say "never", again.
>
> We're good ....and thank you for the peace offering. ;)
>
> nb

Same here...

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 4:41:34 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-30, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The problem is that your statement does not apply to metal working either.
>
> Sorry, but I gotta disagree on that one.

Please refrain from snipping relevant material from posts when replying.

I will repeat what you said once again so that you can see why you are
are wrong:

"Using a hole saw to make a doorknob hole ina door. I see yer point
about using the hole saw in wood. Never happen in metal. "

Note your use of the words "Never happen in metal."

That is the first place you where you are wrong. As stated by me, and as has
been backed up by others, using a hole saw in a hand held drill in metal is
commonplace.

You were wrong to use the word "never".

>
> Not only can the drill press be brought to the work, I've done it
> dozens of times. It's called a magnetic drill press and all one needs
> is to provide a sheet of megnetic metal near the drill point. No
> doubt you have a great collection of clamps.

I never said the drill press can't be brought to the work but since you
snipped so much of my post, I'll put it back in for you.

I said:

"The only "fact" we can state is that not everything can be brought to
a drill press. Some work must be done on site regardless of whether
it's wood, metal, glass, plastic, whatever."

It is an undeniable fact that not everything can be brought to the
drill press. I will now add that the portable drill press cannot be
brought to everything. Oh, sure, you can *bring* it, you just can't
always *use* it.

Leon has already given one example of a situation where a portable drill
press...

1 - Will not work
2 - Is not needed

I could list so many more situations where that is the case.

>
> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/corded/4270-20
>
> Any volunteers to cut a doorknob hole using this anda hand drill
> motor?:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/zqsws54
>
> I've used one ona Bridgeport and it still wasn't pretty, but I got it
> to work at molasses-in-Jan feeds/speeds.
>
> I'd love to see anyone here try and cut a 1-1/2" dia hole in 2 inches of
> T6 alum or acrylic plastic with a hand drill motor and a hole saw.
> Bring yer own EMT. ;)
>
> nb

That's a lame example.

We can all find examples of situations where a hole saw in a hand held
drill is not going to work. Those situations are not limited to metal,
there are also situations where a hole saw in a hand held drill will not
work in wood, plastic, glass, whatever. Who cares?

The fact is, your use of the words "*Never* in metal" are flat out wrong.

You said "Never in metal". I'll repeat that, with emphasis "*Never* in
metal." *Never*

Are you really going to continue to defend that statement?

Electric Comet <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder

Yes true Forster bits drill flat bottom holes. They also leave a small
dimple and often an indention around the perimeter of the bottom of the
hole, but the bottom is flat.

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 12:40:58 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-30, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 3/29/2016 12:57 PM, notbob wrote:
> >> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
> >> held drill motor. That I know, for a fact!
>
> > "FACT": know what you're talking before showing your ignorance.
>
> I apologize fer applying my knowledge of metalworking to your world of
> woodworking. I spoke too soon and spoke from having very little
> real-world knowledge of woodworking. Obviously, they are not the same
> and I was wrong. But, I am trying to learn. Patience, please.
>
> As fer "showing ... ignorance", hey, I can stand proud with the best
> of 'em. ;)
>
> nb

The problem is that your statement does not apply to metal working either.

You said:

"Using a hole saw to make a doorknob hole ina door. I see yer point
about using the hole saw in wood. Never happen in metal. "

I have used hole saws in a hand held drill to bore holes in metal countless
times. I even posted a video of a guy using a cordless drill to bore a hole
in a fairly thick piece of steel.

The only "fact" we can state is that not everything can be brought to
a drill press. Some work must be done on site regardless of whether
it's wood, metal, glass, plastic, whatever.

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 6:20:12 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-30, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
> > Actually so has the automotive industry. Hole saws were used with a
> > hand held drill to add AC systems to vehicles as a retrofit many years
> > ago. Refrigerant lines had to be run from under the hood through the
> > firewall into the evaporator unit.
>
> Note I never sed, "it can not be done".

Why does it appear that you just keep forgetting that you said:

"Never happen in metal."

"Using a hole saw to make a doorknob hole ina door. I see yer point
about using the hole saw in wood. Never happen in metal."

> Also note the U2B video speaks
> of the problems of drilling metal with the tools shown and even shows
> the tools binding, stalling, etc.
>
> I might (but, prolly not) try this with my DW portable battery drill
> motor, with sed clutch mechanism, but definitely not with my Milwaukee
> 1/2" drill motor w/o clutch mechanism (400rpm). The first time that
> Milwaukee caught, it'd probably almost break my wrist (BTDT!).
>
> You wanna try it? Be my guest. I'll use a stepped-bit or a drill
> press, thank you. ;)
>
> As fer "the automotive industry", I've frequented those sound-system
> chop shops. Their "hole saws" were defeated by my '66 Dodge van
> dashboard. Perhaps they were using "old school" hole saws.
>
> Yes, I AM "old school". Not all my drill motors are battery pwrd and
> have clutches. NOT all my pwr tools are StopSaws or Festools. Funny
> that a hobby like woodworking, which so highly prizes "old school"
> hand craftmanship, takes me to task fer not having the newest
> technology. That's OK. I unnerstan. ;)
>
> BTW, my 1/4" paring chisel finally arrived. Yay!
>
> nb

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 12:09:23 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 3/28/2016 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> > On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
> >> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
> >> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
> >
> > It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
> > bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
> > without wandering.
> >
> > https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
> >
> > I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
> > to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit. Start the
> > hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
> > enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
> >
>
> Actually a true Forster bit has no saw teeth and does not require a
> center brad point to guide it. I have drilled numerous quarter circle
> holes with only 1/4 of the bit cutting into the wood. The perimeter of
> the bit does the guiding. This is all done however with a DP, not a
> hand held drill.

Like this one...no center point.

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=12353&familyName=Forstner+Bits

On 3/29/2016 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:
> On 3/29/2016 6:12 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>
>>> On 3/28/16 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
>>>>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
>>>>
>>>> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
>>>> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
>>>> without wandering.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>>>>
>>>> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
>>>> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit.
>>>> Start the
>>>> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
>>>> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's exactly what I've done when I need a totally flat bottom hole.
>>
>> I'm curious why you would need a totally flat bottomed hole.
>>
>
>
> If you are using a bolt/nut/screw and flat washer in that hole the
> washer makes better contact with the bottom of the hole.

But the emphasis (as I read it) was why a TOTALLY flat bottomed hole? I
understand what you're saying, Leon, but if I'm using ANY Forstner bit
to drill say, a 1" hole in a board so I can insert a small fender washer
and a bolt or screw what difference will that slight pip in the dead
center make? If it's a screw the pilot hole will be there, if it's a
bolt, there will be a hole rather than the pip.

notbob <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> On 2016-03-29, Trenbidia <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> They're really fond of those bits aren't they? Four times or more the
>> price of a Freud or Bosch with a center point!
>
> ....and to what advantage!?
>
> So, a center point leaves a little dimple at the bottom of the cut.
> How is this detrimental to the flat bottom? I could see the added
> expense of pointless bits if the bit point left a protruding dimple on
> the bottom, but it does not. A flat washer will lay jes as flat with
> a negative dimple under it as without. Or am I missing something? ;)
>
> nb

Unlike other bits, a Forstner can easily be used to drill multiple
overlapping holes. If a router won't work for some reason, you can make
pockets with a Forstner and a chisel. The little divots left by the
Forstner bit would be very unappealing in that case.

Puckdropper

notbob <[email protected]> wrote in news:dlvtvuFmn1iU5
@mid.individual.net:

> So, grind the point off!
>
> I know the next power tool I buy will probably be some sorta drill
> press. My last DP was too heavy to move from CA to CO. :(
>
> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
> held drill motor. That I know, for a fact! And, with a drill press,
> pilot holes are no longer so important.
>
> nb
>

I put my Forstners in the handheld drill without a second thought. They
do just fine and show very little tendency to grab or do anything crazy.
And hole saws are often used in places where a handheld drill is the only
way to make them work. Even if you could put a door under the drill
press, you'd have to stand on it or something to reach the handles...

I have taken to drilling with the drill/driver clutch set to one notch
below the maximum position. It does help in case of a catch. If I need
more torque, it's easy to flip it over to maximum.

Puckdropper

On 3/30/2016 6:20 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 4:41:34 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
>> On 2016-03-30, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is that your statement does not apply to metal working either.
>>
>> Sorry, but I gotta disagree on that one.
>
> Please refrain from snipping relevant material from posts when replying.
>
> I will repeat what you said once again so that you can see why you are
> are wrong:
>
> "Using a hole saw to make a doorknob hole ina door. I see yer point
> about using the hole saw in wood. Never happen in metal. "
>
> Note your use of the words "Never happen in metal."
>
> That is the first place you where you are wrong. As stated by me, and as has
> been backed up by others, using a hole saw in a hand held drill in metal is
> commonplace.
>
> You were wrong to use the word "never".
>

Sheeese, I'm not going to nitpick such things, but I agree with notbob,
I'm not using a big hole saw in metal with that 1/2" drill of his.
Well, not a second time. I've used a drill like that.

On 3/29/2016 1:57 PM, notbob wrote:

>
> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
> held drill motor. That I know, for a fact! And, with a drill press,
> pilot holes are no longer so important.
>
> nb
>

Depends on how accurate you want to be. The pin point on the bit makes
it easier to line up with the pencil dot on the board for dead center.
But it does not make a difference in making the hold.

On 3/30/2016 3:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 12:40:58 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
>> On 2016-03-30, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 3/29/2016 12:57 PM, notbob wrote:
>>>> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
>>>> held drill motor. That I know, for a fact!
>>
>>> "FACT": know what you're talking before showing your ignorance.
>>
>> I apologize fer applying my knowledge of metalworking to your world of
>> woodworking. I spoke too soon and spoke from having very little
>> real-world knowledge of woodworking. Obviously, they are not the same
>> and I was wrong. But, I am trying to learn. Patience, please.
>>
>> As fer "showing ... ignorance", hey, I can stand proud with the best
>> of 'em. ;)
>>
>> nb
>
> The problem is that your statement does not apply to metal working either.
>
> You said:
>
> "Using a hole saw to make a doorknob hole ina door. I see yer point
> about using the hole saw in wood. Never happen in metal. "
>
> I have used hole saws in a hand held drill to bore holes in metal countless
> times. I even posted a video of a guy using a cordless drill to bore a hole
> in a fairly thick piece of steel.


Actually so has the automotive industry. Hole saws were used with a
hand held drill to add AC systems to vehicles as a retrofit many years
ago. Refrigerant lines had to be run from under the hood through the
firewall into the evaporator unit.

On 3/29/2016 9:56 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 3/29/2016 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/29/2016 6:12 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On 3/28/16 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
>>>>>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
>>>>> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit
>>>>> started
>>>>> without wandering.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner
>>>>> bits
>>>>> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit.
>>>>> Start the
>>>>> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets
>>>>> deep
>>>>> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the
>>>>> hole.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly what I've done when I need a totally flat bottom hole.
>>>
>>> I'm curious why you would need a totally flat bottomed hole.
>>>
>>
>>
>> If you are using a bolt/nut/screw and flat washer in that hole the
>> washer makes better contact with the bottom of the hole.
>
> But the emphasis (as I read it) was why a TOTALLY flat bottomed hole? I
> understand what you're saying, Leon, but if I'm using ANY Forstner bit
> to drill say, a 1" hole in a board so I can insert a small fender washer
> and a bolt or screw what difference will that slight pip in the dead
> center make? If it's a screw the pilot hole will be there, if it's a
> bolt, there will be a hole rather than the pip.
>
>
>
Totally flat does not mean every spot on the bottom is solid, it simply
means that the bottom is flat. Even though pegboard has holes in it, it
is flat.


If there is any portion that is not flat the washer will not make full
contact, if the bottom funnels toward the center the fastener head can
deflect the washer and then only the edge/perimeter of the fastener head
is making contact. Why is this a problem? The fastener can loosen over
time. Now this is all being picky but flat bottom for these type flat
washers and fasteners need to be flat for the same reasons that you use
a tapered type countersink with flat head screws. It simply distributes
the load of the fastener more evenly.

And just to add a touch for the benefit if a flat bottom hole is when
you are drilling 35mm/1-3/8" diameter holes for Euro hinges. These
style hinges require a 1/2" deep hole. If you drill a 1/2" deep hole in
a 3/4" thick cabinet door with a spade bit or a huge twist type bit you
will certainly drill through the opposite surface of the stile.

On 3/29/2016 11:44 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-29, Trenbidia <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> They're really fond of those bits aren't they? Four times or more the
>> price of a Freud or Bosch with a center point!
>
> ....and to what advantage!?
>
> So, a center point leaves a little dimple at the bottom of the cut.
> How is this detrimental to the flat bottom? I could see the added
> expense of pointless bits if the bit point left a protruding dimple on
> the bottom, but it does not. A flat washer will lay jes as flat with
> a negative dimple under it as without. Or am I missing something? ;)
>
> nb
>


Ascetics if the hole will not be filled.

On 3/29/2016 9:13 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 12:09:23 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/28/2016 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
>>>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
>>>
>>> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
>>> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
>>> without wandering.
>>>
>>> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>>>
>>> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
>>> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit. Start the
>>> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
>>> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
>>>
>>
>> Actually a true Forster bit has no saw teeth and does not require a
>> center brad point to guide it. I have drilled numerous quarter circle
>> holes with only 1/4 of the bit cutting into the wood. The perimeter of
>> the bit does the guiding. This is all done however with a DP, not a
>> hand held drill.
>
> Like this one...no center point.
>
> http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=12353&familyName=Forstner+Bits
>

BUT not even that bit creates a "totally" flat bottom hole, it still
creates an indentation around the perimeter of the bottom of the hole,
and typically about as deep as the spur center on those that have them.

The Forstner bit requires the perimeter of the hole to be cut first,
like a brad point bit and then the flutes cutting edges cut out the
center and leave a flat surface.

On 3/29/2016 11:22 AM, Trenbidia wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 07:13:30 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 12:09:23 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>
>>> Actually a true Forster bit has no saw teeth and does not require a
>>> center brad point to guide it. I have drilled numerous quarter circle
>>> holes with only 1/4 of the bit cutting into the wood. The perimeter of
>>> the bit does the guiding. This is all done however with a DP, not a
>>> hand held drill.
>
> You're right, Leon. But I would add one caution. If you're drilling a
> full round hole, the force of the bit is equal in all directions. If
> you're drilling half a hole, the force is all in one direction. If you
> don't have the work secured, the bit can pull the work (and your hand)
> into it - DAMHIKT!

Yes! and why I mentioned doing this on a DP. ;~)





>
>>
>> Like this one...no center point.
>>
>> http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?
> pid=12353&familyName=Forstner+Bits
>
> They're really fond of those bits aren't they? Four times or more the
> price of a Freud or Bosch with a center point!
>
>

Good Forstner bits are not cheap. Cheap Forstner bits can be cheap.

With out a center spur the bit has to be well made and sharpened to keep
it on track. FWIW I would choose a Fuller bit over a Bosch or Freud if
I needed to accomplish an excellent result repeatedly hundreds of times.

On 3/29/2016 4:30 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-29, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> You might want to talk to a plumber or door installer about hole saws
>> and hand drills.
>
> Yes. Perhaps I was a bit too fast outta that gate. ;)
>
> nb
>


;~) Perhaps. Been there, done that, before myself.

On 3/29/2016 12:57 PM, notbob wrote:

> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
> held drill motor. That I know, for a fact!

"FACT": know what you're talking before showing your ignorance.

--
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KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

-MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> On 3/28/16 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
>>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
>>
>> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
>> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
>> without wandering.
>>
>> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>>
>> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
>> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit. Start the
>> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
>> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
>>
>
> That's exactly what I've done when I need a totally flat bottom hole.

I'm curious why you would need a totally flat bottomed hole.

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 10:40:57 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
> On 3/29/2016 6:12 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> > -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
> >
> >> On 3/28/16 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> >>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
> >>>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
> >>>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
> >>>
> >>> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
> >>> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
> >>> without wandering.
> >>>
> >>> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
> >>>
> >>> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
> >>> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit. Start the
> >>> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
> >>> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
> >>>
> >>
> >> That's exactly what I've done when I need a totally flat bottom hole.
> >
> > I'm curious why you would need a totally flat bottomed hole.
> >
>
>
> If you are using a bolt/nut/screw and flat washer in that hole the
> washer makes better contact with the bottom of the hole.

...or a thrust bearing. BTDT

http://www.vxb.com/v/vspfiles/photos/F3-8-2.jpg

There's one at the bottom of the steering shaft for this
Soap Box Derby car:

http://tinyurl.com/DerbySteer

Full Link

http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/2014-05-05_17-14-59_827_zpsi9pjxbgv.jpg

However, I think we have a slight disconnect here. Doug used the word
"totally" in his post. Your flat washer (and my bearing) will both work
in the hole created by a Fortsner bit with a center point, which does not
create a totally flat hole. (I believe that that is what EC is actually
asking about)

The only reason I can think of for a totally flat bottomed hole would be
for decorative purposes.

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 1:57:22 PM UTC-4, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-29, Puckdropper <puckdropper> wrote:
>
> > The little divots left by the Forstner bit would be very unappealing
> > in that case.
>
> So, grind the point off!
>
> I know the next power tool I buy will probably be some sorta drill
> press. My last DP was too heavy to move from CA to CO. :(
>
> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
> held drill motor.

May I offer a hardy "Not true!"?

There are so many projects that require the use of a hole saw or
Forstner bit that simply can't be brought to the drill press.

I could list 5 or 6 recent projects that I've done by using
both Forstner bits and hole saws in hand held drills.

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true

It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
without wandering.

https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg

I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit. Start the
hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.

On 2016-03-29, Trenbidia <[email protected]> wrote:

> They're really fond of those bits aren't they? Four times or more the
> price of a Freud or Bosch with a center point!

....and to what advantage!?

So, a center point leaves a little dimple at the bottom of the cut.
How is this detrimental to the flat bottom? I could see the added
expense of pointless bits if the bit point left a protruding dimple on
the bottom, but it does not. A flat washer will lay jes as flat with
a negative dimple under it as without. Or am I missing something? ;)

nb

On 2016-03-29, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:


> if the bottom funnels toward the center the fastener head can
> deflect the washer and then only the edge/perimeter of the fastener head
> is making contact. Why is this a problem?

No one but yerself is positing that it even IS a problem.

You say, "if". What "if" it is NOT a problem? I suspect good
forstner bits are jes as flat as those pricey pointless bits, with
only the "point" extending beyond the flat cutter arms. In fact,
if one has a drill press and good HSS bits, what's to prevent one from
grinding down the "point".

According to Wiki, the main advantage to forstner bits was not the
flat bottom:

"Originally the Forstner bit was very successful with gunsmiths
because of its ability to drill an exceedingly smooth-sided hole."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_bit#Forstner_bits

Yes, I saw the comment about the flat bottom:

"(and incidentally spoils the otherwise flat bottom of the hole)".

Again, I say, who cares? Some anal purist, no doubt, but what with
all those power tools in the mix, it's pretty silly. Besides, don't
washers have a hole in the middle?

I'm rapidly beginning to suspect woodworking is merely yet another
reason for men to buy/hoard a whole buncha specialized tools. I've
got a 1/4" socket paring chisel coming tomorrow, which is amazing only
due to the fact that I have no clue how I'm gonna use it w/o that
necessary wooden mallet.

Yeah, I know. I'm already hooked. ;)

nb

On 2016-03-29, Puckdropper <puckdropper> wrote:

> The little divots left by the Forstner bit would be very unappealing
> in that case.

So, grind the point off!

I know the next power tool I buy will probably be some sorta drill
press. My last DP was too heavy to move from CA to CO. :(

Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
held drill motor. That I know, for a fact! And, with a drill press,
pilot holes are no longer so important.

nb

On 2016-03-29, Puckdropper <puckdropper> wrote:

> I put my Forstners in the handheld drill without a second thought.

The larger the diameter, the greater the problem. Yer arm, yer
choice.

Apparently, I'm still thinking old school metalworking.
I have a 1/2" drive Milwaukee drill motor. Max 400 rpm, so
it's high torque and no clutch. I was cutting concrete with a
homemade 1-1/2" bore cutter bit. The cutter hit an I-beam and the
drill motor tore itself outta my hands (trigger lock on) and didn't
stop until the drill motor had wrapped itself in its own power cord
and ripped the cord completely off the unit.

> I have taken to drilling with the drill/driver clutch set to one notch
> below the maximum position.

Using a hole saw to make a doorknob hole ina door. I see yer point
about using the hole saw in wood. Never happen in metal. And using a
drill motor with a clutch? Never thought of that, until you mentioned
it. I have a DeWalt portable drill motor w/ clutch, so great tip.
Thnx. ;)

nb

On 2016-03-29, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> Like trolling, do you?

No. Do you? ;)

nb

On 2016-03-29, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> You might want to talk to a plumber or door installer about hole saws
> and hand drills.

Yes. Perhaps I was a bit too fast outta that gate. ;)

nb

On 2016-03-30, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 3/29/2016 12:57 PM, notbob wrote:
>> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
>> held drill motor. That I know, for a fact!

> "FACT": know what you're talking before showing your ignorance.

I apologize fer applying my knowledge of metalworking to your world of
woodworking. I spoke too soon and spoke from having very little
real-world knowledge of woodworking. Obviously, they are not the same
and I was wrong. But, I am trying to learn. Patience, please.

As fer "showing ... ignorance", hey, I can stand proud with the best
of 'em. ;)

nb

On 2016-03-30, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:

> The problem is that your statement does not apply to metal working either.

Sorry, but I gotta disagree on that one.

Not only can the drill press be brought to the work, I've done it
dozens of times. It's called a magnetic drill press and all one needs
is to provide a sheet of megnetic metal near the drill point. No
doubt you have a great collection of clamps.

https://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/corded/4270-20

Any volunteers to cut a doorknob hole using this anda hand drill
motor?:

http://tinyurl.com/zqsws54

I've used one ona Bridgeport and it still wasn't pretty, but I got it
to work at molasses-in-Jan feeds/speeds.

I'd love to see anyone here try and cut a 1-1/2" dia hole in 2 inches of
T6 alum or acrylic plastic with a hand drill motor and a hole saw.
Bring yer own EMT. ;)

nb

On 2016-03-30, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:

> Actually so has the automotive industry. Hole saws were used with a
> hand held drill to add AC systems to vehicles as a retrofit many years
> ago. Refrigerant lines had to be run from under the hood through the
> firewall into the evaporator unit.

Note I never sed, "it can not be done". Also note the U2B video speaks
of the problems of drilling metal with the tools shown and even shows
the tools binding, stalling, etc.

I might (but, prolly not) try this with my DW portable battery drill
motor, with sed clutch mechanism, but definitely not with my Milwaukee
1/2" drill motor w/o clutch mechanism (400rpm). The first time that
Milwaukee caught, it'd probably almost break my wrist (BTDT!).

You wanna try it? Be my guest. I'll use a stepped-bit or a drill
press, thank you. ;)

As fer "the automotive industry", I've frequented those sound-system
chop shops. Their "hole saws" were defeated by my '66 Dodge van
dashboard. Perhaps they were using "old school" hole saws.

Yes, I AM "old school". Not all my drill motors are battery pwrd and
have clutches. NOT all my pwr tools are StopSaws or Festools. Funny
that a hobby like woodworking, which so highly prizes "old school"
hand craftmanship, takes me to task fer not having the newest
technology. That's OK. I unnerstan. ;)

BTW, my 1/4" paring chisel finally arrived. Yay!

nb

On 2016-03-30, Mike Marlow <[email protected]> wrote:

> Man - you are one contentious person who is bent on going off on
> tangents that have nothing to do with comments that have previously been
> made. Bet you don't really have a lot of friends in life...

Yeah, I suck. 8|

But! ....I have faith that all you perfect people will set me
straight and will eventually mold me into the exact person you want me
to be. I'll jes sit here in the corner and think precisely what you
instruct me to think.

Jinkies! We having fun, yet? ;)

nb

On 2016-03-30, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:

> Sheeese, I'm not going to nitpick such things, but I agree with notbob,
> I'm not using a big hole saw in metal with that 1/2" drill of his.
> Well, not a second time. I've used a drill like that.

Thanks, Ed.

Ya' know I'm usually not this "contentious" (Mike's words). OTOH, I'm
not gonna jes lie down and act like I know nothing! I didn't get my
experience from FWW magazine. I got it from actually doing it!
Working ina machine shop in one of our country's most reknown govt
labs. And I'm not adverse to admitting I'm wrong. I've already done
it. Here! But, I'll be damned if I'll pretend I'm wrong jes cuz
someone sez I am.

With respect to woodworking cabinetry, I pretty much am clueless.
Admittedly! That's not to say I know nada! I put in a year as an
apprentice carpenter. I've got my late brother's tools and a few more
I've picked up, over the yrs. Now, I'm learning cabinetry cuz I
have to. I inherited my mom's home and the kitchen is falling apart and
I gotta fix it. I may not be a master woodworker, but I'm far from a
being a total neophyte. ;)

nb

On 2016-03-30, Mike Marlow <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tell you what - I'm willing to bury the hatchet and start from the
> beginning, if you are. Chock it up to just the way shit flows
> sometimes, and put it behind us.
>
> Does that work for you?

Like WD40! (jes kidding)

I'll try and ameliorate my delivery, too. No more "anal" remarks
--which I'm sure didn't thrill the true WW masters in this group-- and
I'll try and never say "never", again.

We're good ....and thank you for the peace offering. ;)

nb

On 2016-03-31, Swingman <[email protected]> wrote:

> ... and welcome to the forum notbob.

Thank you, Swingman.

nb

On 3/29/2016 6:12 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 3/28/16 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
>>>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
>>>
>>> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
>>> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
>>> without wandering.
>>>
>>> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>>>
>>> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
>>> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit. Start the
>>> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
>>> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
>>>
>>
>> That's exactly what I've done when I need a totally flat bottom hole.
>
> I'm curious why you would need a totally flat bottomed hole.
>


If you are using a bolt/nut/screw and flat washer in that hole the
washer makes better contact with the bottom of the hole.

On 3/30/2016 7:19 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
> notbob wrote:

>> We're good ....and thank you for the peace offering. ;)

> Good to go brother.

Same here

... and welcome to the forum notbob.

> Thanks for your cooperation. I've had to go
> through my share of ameliorating my comments over time in this group.
> There are many here who could attest to that.

LOL ... we love you anyway, Mike, even if you do talk funny. ;)

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
https://www.facebook.com/eWoodShop-206166666122228
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 3/29/2016 10:02 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 10:40:57 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/29/2016 6:12 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On 3/28/16 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
>>>>>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
>>>>> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
>>>>> without wandering.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
>>>>> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit. Start the
>>>>> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
>>>>> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly what I've done when I need a totally flat bottom hole.
>>>
>>> I'm curious why you would need a totally flat bottomed hole.
>>>
>>
>>
>> If you are using a bolt/nut/screw and flat washer in that hole the
>> washer makes better contact with the bottom of the hole.
>
> ...or a thrust bearing. BTDT
>
> http://www.vxb.com/v/vspfiles/photos/F3-8-2.jpg
>
> There's one at the bottom of the steering shaft for this
> Soap Box Derby car:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/DerbySteer
>
> Full Link
>
> http://i440.photobucket.com/albums/qq121/DerbyDad03/2014-05-05_17-14-59_827_zpsi9pjxbgv.jpg
>
> However, I think we have a slight disconnect here. Doug used the word
> "totally" in his post. Your flat washer (and my bearing) will both work
> in the hole created by a Fortsner bit with a center point, which does not
> create a totally flat hole. (I believe that that is what EC is actually
> asking about)
>
> The only reason I can think of for a totally flat bottomed hole would be
> for decorative purposes.
>

Actually I believe Mike mentioned totally flat. And I thought Doug was
just wondering about a flat bottom hole, NOT necessarily devoid of a
perimeter indention or center point.

My mistake if I misunderstood Doug.

On 3/29/2016 1:35 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 3/29/2016 1:57 PM, notbob wrote:
>
>>
>> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
>> held drill motor. That I know, for a fact! And, with a drill press,
>> pilot holes are no longer so important.
>>
>> nb
>>
>
> Depends on how accurate you want to be. The pin point on the bit makes
> it easier to line up with the pencil dot on the board for dead center.
> But it does not make a difference in making the hold.


Precicely!

On 3/29/2016 12:57 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-29, Puckdropper <puckdropper> wrote:
>
>> The little divots left by the Forstner bit would be very unappealing
>> in that case.
>
> So, grind the point off!
>
> I know the next power tool I buy will probably be some sorta drill
> press. My last DP was too heavy to move from CA to CO. :(
>
> Things like forstner bits and hole saws should NOT be used with a hand
> held drill motor. That I know, for a fact! And, with a drill press,
> pilot holes are no longer so important.
>
> nb
>


You might want to talk to a plumber or door installer about hole saws
and hand drills.

On 3/29/2016 12:22 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-29, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>
>> if the bottom funnels toward the center the fastener head can
>> deflect the washer and then only the edge/perimeter of the fastener head
>> is making contact. Why is this a problem?
>
> No one but yerself is positing that it even IS a problem.

What is that again?



>
> You say, "if". What "if" it is NOT a problem? I suspect good
> forstner bits are jes as flat as those pricey pointless bits, with
> only the "point" extending beyond the flat cutter arms. In fact,
> if one has a drill press and good HSS bits, what's to prevent one from
> grinding down the "point".

I am talking about a Forstner bit vs. a regular twist bit, or brad point
bit which do not leave flat bottoms.


>
> According to Wiki, the main advantage to forstner bits was not the
> flat bottom:

Well leave it to Wiki to be the end all answer site. ;~)


>
> "Originally the Forstner bit was very successful with gunsmiths
> because of its ability to drill an exceedingly smooth-sided hole."

Shickingly I can't say that I have ever had issue with a non smooth side
unless using a spade type bit. Standard twist and brad point bits leave
very smooth sides. Forstner bits mostly do exceptionally well at
drilling into a surface at an angle and or cutting non full circle arc's
indention or half circles.

>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drill_bit#Forstner_bits
>
> Yes, I saw the comment about the flat bottom:
>
> "(and incidentally spoils the otherwise flat bottom of the hole)".
>
> Again, I say, who cares? Some anal purist, no doubt, but what with
> all those power tools in the mix, it's pretty silly. Besides, don't
> washers have a hole in the middle?

Hummmmmmmmm. One poster asked and the question was answered. Now you
are becoming all anal about your point of view.



>
> I'm rapidly beginning to suspect woodworking is merely yet another
> reason for men to buy/hoard a whole buncha specialized tools. I've
> got a 1/4" socket paring chisel coming tomorrow, which is amazing only
> due to the fact that I have no clue how I'm gonna use it w/o that
> necessary wooden mallet.
>
> Yeah, I know. I'm already hooked. ;)
>
> nb
>


Like trolling, do you?

On 3/28/16 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
>
> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
> without wandering.
>
> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>
> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit. Start the
> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
>

That's exactly what I've done when I need a totally flat bottom hole.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 07:13:30 -0700, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Tuesday, March 29, 2016 at 12:09:23 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:

>> Actually a true Forster bit has no saw teeth and does not require a
>> center brad point to guide it. I have drilled numerous quarter circle
>> holes with only 1/4 of the bit cutting into the wood. The perimeter of
>> the bit does the guiding. This is all done however with a DP, not a
>> hand held drill.

You're right, Leon. But I would add one caution. If you're drilling a
full round hole, the force of the bit is equal in all directions. If
you're drilling half a hole, the force is all in one direction. If you
don't have the work secured, the bit can pull the work (and your hand)
into it - DAMHIKT!

>
> Like this one...no center point.
>
> http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?
pid=12353&familyName=Forstner+Bits

They're really fond of those bits aren't they? Four times or more the
price of a Freud or Bosch with a center point!


--
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

On 3/29/16 6:12 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
>> On 3/28/16 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet
>>> wrote:
>>>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i
>>>> thought of was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder
>>>> if that is true
>>>
>>> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not*
>>> flat bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the
>>> bit started without wandering.
>>>
>>> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>>>
>>> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2
>>> Forstner bits to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad
>>> off of one bit. Start the hole with the center brad of the "full"
>>> bit and when the hole gets deep enough to hold the other one
>>> centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
>>>
>>
>> That's exactly what I've done when I need a totally flat bottom
>> hole.
>
> I'm curious why you would need a totally flat bottomed hole.
>

I'm letting some coffee work on my brain to fire up the correct synapses
in order to recollect the past projects I've needed them.

However, on a recent cabinet rehab, the client wanted cup hinges on her
existing doors which were abnormally thin. Not only did I have to scour
the globe/google to find euro-hinges with the shallowest cups, but I had
to grind off the pilot point on my 35mm forstner to keep it from
piercing the outer edge of the cabinet.

Yes, it was a butt-pucker job as there was less than 1/16" outer veneer
left after the cup holes were drilled. Client wants, client gets. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/29/16 9:56 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
> On 3/29/2016 9:40 AM, Leon wrote:
>> On 3/29/2016 6:12 AM, Doug Miller wrote:
>>> -MIKE- <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>>>
>>>> On 3/28/16 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>>>>>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
>>>>>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
>>>>> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit
>>>>> started
>>>>> without wandering.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner
>>>>> bits
>>>>> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit.
>>>>> Start the
>>>>> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets
>>>>> deep
>>>>> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the
>>>>> hole.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly what I've done when I need a totally flat bottom hole.
>>>
>>> I'm curious why you would need a totally flat bottomed hole.
>>>
>>
>>
>> If you are using a bolt/nut/screw and flat washer in that hole the
>> washer makes better contact with the bottom of the hole.
>
> But the emphasis (as I read it) was why a TOTALLY flat bottomed hole? I
> understand what you're saying, Leon, but if I'm using ANY Forstner bit
> to drill say, a 1" hole in a board so I can insert a small fender washer
> and a bolt or screw what difference will that slight pip in the dead
> center make? If it's a screw the pilot hole will be there, if it's a
> bolt, there will be a hole rather than the pip.
>


I'm trying to find some pictures for one project I did.
It's more for looks than purpose. I needed semi-cylindrical shapes,
think: round mortise.
Except these would show. I could think of no easier or accurate way to
cut the shapes I needed. I experiment with a hole saw, first. But they
don't exactly cut clean holes, then there's the task of removing the
core that's still attached on a non-through bore. That means having
chisel out a clean, flat bottom inside a semi-circle. Not easy.

So that gets us to the subject of this thread. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 11:57:27 -0500, Leon wrote:

> If you
>> don't have the work secured, the bit can pull the work (and your hand)
>> into it - DAMHIKT!
>
> Yes! and why I mentioned doing this on a DP. ;~)

It was a drill press where I found out about the problem - the hard way!
I had the work up against a fence and a stop - the stop should have been
on the other end!



--
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-30, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
>
>> Actually so has the automotive industry. Hole saws were used with a
>> hand held drill to add AC systems to vehicles as a retrofit many years
>> ago. Refrigerant lines had to be run from under the hood through the
>> firewall into the evaporator unit.
>
> Note I never sed, "it can not be done". Also note the U2B video speaks
> of the problems of drilling metal with the tools shown and even shows
> the tools binding, stalling, etc.
>
> I might (but, prolly not) try this with my DW portable battery drill
> motor, with sed clutch mechanism, but definitely not with my Milwaukee
> 1/2" drill motor w/o clutch mechanism (400rpm). The first time that
> Milwaukee caught, it'd probably almost break my wrist (BTDT!).
>
> You wanna try it? Be my guest. I'll use a stepped-bit or a drill
> press, thank you. ;)
>
> As fer "the automotive industry", I've frequented those sound-system
> chop shops. Their "hole saws" were defeated by my '66 Dodge van
> dashboard. Perhaps they were using "old school" hole saws.
>
> Yes, I AM "old school". Not all my drill motors are battery pwrd and
> have clutches. NOT all my pwr tools are StopSaws or Festools. Funny
> that a hobby like woodworking, which so highly prizes "old school"
> hand craftmanship, takes me to task fer not having the newest
> technology. That's OK. I unnerstan. ;)
>
> BTW, my 1/4" paring chisel finally arrived. Yay!
>

Man - you are one contentious person who is bent on going off on
tangents that have nothing to do with comments that have previously been
made. Bet you don't really have a lot of friends in life...


--
-Mike-
[email protected]

DerbyDad03 wrote:

>
> Why does it appear that you just keep forgetting that you said:
>
> "Never happen in metal."
>
> "Using a hole saw to make a doorknob hole ina door. I see yer point
> about using the hole saw in wood. Never happen in metal."
>

Don't waste your time with this guy. He's just a contentious person who
is bent on proving everyone else wrong in life. Let the idiot just go away.



--
-Mike-
[email protected]

notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-30, Mike Marlow <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Man - you are one contentious person who is bent on going off on
>> tangents that have nothing to do with comments that have previously been
>> made. Bet you don't really have a lot of friends in life...
>
> Yeah, I suck. 8|
>
> But! ....I have faith that all you perfect people will set me
> straight and will eventually mold me into the exact person you want me
> to be. I'll jes sit here in the corner and think precisely what you
> instruct me to think.

Nobody perfect here, but dude - just take a look at yourself and the way
you interact here. Says it all.

>
> Jinkies! We having fun, yet? ;)
>

Apparently you are...



--
-Mike-
[email protected]

notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-30, Ed Pawlowski <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Sheeese, I'm not going to nitpick such things, but I agree with notbob,
>> I'm not using a big hole saw in metal with that 1/2" drill of his.
>> Well, not a second time. I've used a drill like that.
>
> Thanks, Ed.
>
> Ya' know I'm usually not this "contentious" (Mike's words). OTOH, I'm
> not gonna jes lie down and act like I know nothing! I didn't get my
> experience from FWW magazine. I got it from actually doing it!
> Working ina machine shop in one of our country's most reknown govt
> labs. And I'm not adverse to admitting I'm wrong. I've already done
> it. Here! But, I'll be damned if I'll pretend I'm wrong jes cuz
> someone sez I am.
>
> With respect to woodworking cabinetry, I pretty much am clueless.
> Admittedly! That's not to say I know nada! I put in a year as an
> apprentice carpenter. I've got my late brother's tools and a few more
> I've picked up, over the yrs. Now, I'm learning cabinetry cuz I
> have to. I inherited my mom's home and the kitchen is falling apart and
> I gotta fix it. I may not be a master woodworker, but I'm far from a
> being a total neophyte. ;)
>
> nb
>

Look guy - I'm not saying you have nothing to offer or that your
questions are silly. I think a guy like you actually does have a lot to
offer just like a guy like me has things to offer that may even be off
to the side of actual woodworking. You seem to very knowledgeable in
certain areas and I think that knowledge can be of great value to a
group like this which is wider reaching than just woodworking. Believe
it or not (your choice), I actually do genuinely respect the kind of
knowledge a guy like you brings.

For me - it's all about the delivery. Most here would tell you that my
delivery can be a bit on the harsh side from time to time, so that may
sound a little ironic coming from me.

Tell you what - I'm willing to bury the hatchet and start from the
beginning, if you are. Chock it up to just the way shit flows
sometimes, and put it behind us.

Does that work for you?


--
-Mike-
[email protected]

notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-30, Mike Marlow <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tell you what - I'm willing to bury the hatchet and start from the
>> beginning, if you are. Chock it up to just the way shit flows
>> sometimes, and put it behind us.
>>
>> Does that work for you?
>
> Like WD40! (jes kidding)
>
> I'll try and ameliorate my delivery, too. No more "anal" remarks
> --which I'm sure didn't thrill the true WW masters in this group-- and
> I'll try and never say "never", again.
>
> We're good ....and thank you for the peace offering. ;)
>

Good to go brother. Thanks for your cooperation. I've had to go
through my share of ameliorating my comments over time in this group.
There are many here who could attest to that.


--
-Mike-
[email protected]

On 3/30/16 3:41 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2016-03-30, DerbyDad03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The problem is that your statement does not apply to metal working either.
>
> Sorry, but I gotta disagree on that one.
>
> Not only can the drill press be brought to the work, I've done it
> dozens of times. It's called a magnetic drill press and all one needs
> is to provide a sheet of megnetic metal near the drill point. No
> doubt you have a great collection of clamps.
>
> https://www.milwaukeetool.com/power-tools/corded/4270-20
>
> Any volunteers to cut a doorknob hole using this anda hand drill
> motor?:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/zqsws54
>
> I've used one ona Bridgeport and it still wasn't pretty, but I got it
> to work at molasses-in-Jan feeds/speeds.
>
> I'd love to see anyone here try and cut a 1-1/2" dia hole in 2 inches of
> T6 alum or acrylic plastic with a hand drill motor and a hole saw.
> Bring yer own EMT. ;)
>
> nb
>

Just stop. Stop digging the hole. It's embarrassing.
I've drilled hundreds, yes, hundreds of holes that size and larger with
a handheld battery and corded drills with holes saws. That thing you
showed is antiquated.

Sit back and learn from those with experience. Not googlectuals.

Peanut gallery. Wow.

Sheesh.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com
[email protected]
---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On 3/28/2016 8:16 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 7:24:38 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
>> saw flat bottom forstner bits advertised and first thing i thought of
>> was all forstner bits are flat bottom but i wonder if that is true
>
> It's not true. I would guess that most Forstner bits are *not* flat
> bottomed, as shown here. The center brad is used to get the bit started
> without wandering.
>
> https://www.pennstateind.com/graphics/1600px/PKFB2732.jpg
>
> I have heard of (but never seen) the technique of using 2 Forstner bits
> to get a flat bottom hole. Grind the center brad off of one bit. Start the
> hole with the center brad of the "full" bit and when the hole gets deep
> enough to hold the other one centered, switch bits and finish the hole.
>

Actually a true Forster bit has no saw teeth and does not require a
center brad point to guide it. I have drilled numerous quarter circle
holes with only 1/4 of the bit cutting into the wood. The perimeter of
the bit does the guiding. This is all done however with a DP, not a
hand held drill.

On 3/29/2016 12:22 PM, notbob wrote:

> According to Wiki, the main advantage to forstner bits was not the
> flat bottom:

FACT: Speak from personal experience, and not what you parrot from
googlefu ...

Bon jour ...

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